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 Ashiraya wrote:
I would add a helmet and shift some armour around a bit but otherwise that looks really good.

 Pouncey wrote:
Do you understand now, why I reacted the way I did?

I will repeat Hybrid's advice here, I would look at something else to do for a while. Getting worked up over this is not going to help anyone. We cannot post based on how some people with schizophrenia or other conditions might react; Dakka has over 100,000 registered users. I have autism myself but that is just something you have to take precautions for - in this case, if you feel that you are easily worked up over a sensitive topic, then avoid that topic instead of telling others to not argue certain viewpoints about it.

This. Much as it sucks that you make feel that way, I don't think telling another user "Feth You" is either constructive, or in compliance with forum rules.

Not to mention Gogsnik, and many others, did say how it's a concept or theme they want to attach to the original Sisters look and tweak it. Many people don't want to redesign the Sisters completely, but rather tweak it by posting other armour sets to show the effect.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Frankly, you repeating the false dilemma 'keep SoB exactly as they are or change absolutely everything about them' is getting tiring now. You and Manchu had a field day painting that fallacy all over the walls earlier. I really must insist that there is a non-negligible middle ground.

I'd like to actually see what that middle ground would look like, because nobody's actually posted an artistic depiction of it yet.

I am not an artist. I really feel like it should not be mandatory to make design suggestions.

In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

Their current helms are good. In fact, they are probably my favourite part of their entire design. They look incredibly good.

To my mind the source of the miscommunication here is what, exactly, the 'aesthetic' of the Battle Sisters really is, it might help if people went into more detail on specific content.

To me the reason I like the current models is the relative cleanness; a Battle Sister has taller contoured greaves rather than the chunky greaves and separate knee-pad on most power armour, she's got cables around the collar and that's it, she's got a fairly minimalist backpack, ornate designs confined to standard-sized shoulder pads, and the coolest helmet ever fitted to a suit of armour. Gogsnik's picture has random skulls slapped on haphazardly, extra cables stuck all over the place, and the distinctive haircut/helmet has been cut in favour of a crumpled bald head full of wires that would embarass a Grey Knight.

And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.

If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

What are whimples and sallet helms?

Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.

 Pouncey wrote:
I'd like to actually see what that middle ground would look like, because nobody's actually posted an artistic depiction of it yet.

I suppose I should get to working on that.

Unfortunately the only medium I'm any good at working in is converting Warhammer models and some of the components I wanted to hack on are in the mail right now so it may take a while.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.

If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.

Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."

 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

What are whimples and sallet helms?

Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.

A wimple is the classic 'nun headdress', the sort of squared-off black and white hood thing.

 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

What are whimples and sallet helms?

Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.

A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.

No wimples though, in my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.

If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.

Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."

Indeed. Separating design elements from each and assembling an estimated result is not too difficult for me.

 Pouncey wrote:

Interesting a split on how grimdark (tm) we want our Sisters models. I think the shaved head, the implants, the unnecessary detailing make the model more grimdark, and more 40k.

Really, it's the difference between butch and femme.

Personally I view the split differently.

I view it as people who like the way Sisters of Battle actually look and always have looked, versus people who don't like anything at all about how they actually look and want to change them into something they like better.

And generally I think the people in the latter category should be playing an army they like better instead of changing the existing lore.

Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Is the main goal of PA to look feminine? Surely the main goal is to protect the wearer, which the model depiction of the armour doesn't look like it does well.

Seriously, the baroque look is fine. Making it slimmer than Marine armour is fine. But overly exaggerated boobplate and heels, and the very obvious corset look is too much.
Boobplate can exist, but more in the style of a slight raised section, a la Brienne of Tarth's armour, or the artwork Ashiraya has (which I personally like a lot).
Why is there a fascination with making it look attractive or feminine?

As long as the SOB power armour looks noticeably different from Space Marine armour at TT level (for the sake of easy identification) and actually looks like decent armour, I won't care.

When the only reason the Ecclesiarchy even has an army of powered armored troops at all is because they're female, yes, yes I think they absolutely should look as female as possible.

But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?

It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

What are whimples and sallet helms?

Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.

A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.

No wimples though, in my opinion.

I think a uniform haircut is better. And it's how they currently are.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
And Pouncey, it is fairly easy for me to mentally take a single design element - such as a breastplate, a kneepad, a shift in size of X component - and apply it to another picture.

If it is harder for you, I acknowledge that, but it is not something I can help with.

Previous pictures have generally referred to video game characters from other franchises and essentially saying, "Like that, but with this and this and this and this and this."

Indeed. Separating design elements from each and assembling an estimated result is not too difficult for me.

It would help if I even knew what design element from the screenshot they even wanted to transplant onto an existing Sister of Battle.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the middle ground, that's where I proposed wimples, buzz cuts and sallet helms.

What are whimples and sallet helms?

Also buzzcuts are right out. No way, whatsoever. Being bald or nearly bald makes humans look much, much more similar in terms of gender, and short hair is masculine for humans while longer hair is more feminine. Their hairstyle should be fairly long.

A hair variety would be best. Long hair, short hair, bald cut.

No wimples though, in my opinion.

I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.

As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.

I think we can all agree the overall Sister aesthetic is pretty cool. It's more that certain elements of it are questionable to some people (such as the "boobplate"). So my idea would be to take the general look of the Sister's armor (I love those helmets) and use that as the base for the new armor, and maybe take out the boobplate

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?

Yes.

Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.

Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.

But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?

It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.

Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.

Imagine this.

What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

 Pouncey wrote:
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?

Yes.

Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.

Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.

But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?

It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.

Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.

Imagine this.

What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

Certain members of the Ecclesiarchy would find themselves in multiple garbage bags courtesy of the Assassins.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.

As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.

Marines are monks like SoB are nuns, but they have varying haircuts. It does not seem to be a big issue really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.

This is still fanfiction, by the way, with no lore backing. It is what you wish the lore would be, not what it is. The distinction is very important to make.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?

Yes.

Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.

Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.

You understand that if they change some details in an update, they won't come around to your house and stamp on your existing collection? Nor will they unprint the art.

It is almost inevitable that Sisters will change if they get an update. The only thing that's really up for debate is the magnitude of the change.

Plus, of course, the reverse of "Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones" is "modify the models so they better suit your ideas" which applies both to people who want to collect them now but want them slightly different or any future collector who dislikes any changes they may implement.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Certain members of the Ecclesiarchy would find themselves in multiple garbage bags courtesy of the Assassins.

Po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe.

Either way, we win.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.

Correct.

Now realize that completely practical power armor, especially with a helmet on, means Sisters of Battle would be easily mistaken for men. And that many people in the Imperium have really, really bad eyesight due to poor medical care.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Got another suggestion for people who want to play a female religious organisation who wear heavy armour but dislike the current look because of it's awkwardness?

Yes.

Don't destroy something that people already have, currently love, and have spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on just because you don't like it and might like something else better.

Make your own models and don't try to mess with the current ones.

So then, do you, or do you not oppose the redesigning of the Dark Eldar? The Scions? CSM Raptors?
Or is this an isolated case?

But why bother putting them in armour if the armour looks awkward and impractical as hell?
Heels?
Massive boobplate?
Corsets?

It needs to look like actual armour, and give them their own distinct aesthetic from other power armour groups. Being overpoweringly female is not a requirement of the armour. A slightly raised section at the front and female heads would do.
Otherwise, can I not use the Space Marine argument - they are all-male as part of their design, but how can I tell they're male under that armour? I need sculpt unrealistically large abs and a penis on, obviously.

Um... I'm 100% sure that Sisters of Battle armor looking excessively feminine is a crucial design feature.

Imagine this.

What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

I would disagree with you on that point. Looking female is not the main point. Actually saving the lives of females is.

If I saw men in the lore fighting directly for the Ecclesiarchy, I'd have an issue, as it breaks the Decree Passive. However, we're talking about women, not men. Unless you automatically assume that anyone in power armour is a man, that issue shouldn't come up if the Sisters have a recognisable armour set (Sallet Helms) and can be visually identified by armour alone as SOB.

If that's the case, the Sisters shouldn't have a 3+ Save. They should be down to a 5+ save.

Also, only the Sisters wear those Sallet helms.

Or whatever armor pattern they happen to wear.

 Pouncey wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
What would happen in the lore if people saw the Ecclesiarchy fielding an army of power armored men with bolters?

That would be a gross and deliberate violation of the Decree Passive. As a rival Inquisitor, I might take it upon myself to second a number of Space Marines, Navy and Guard assets to destroy that "rogue" Eccelesarcy force, and bring their leaders to summary justice.

Correct.

Now realize that completely practical power armor, especially with a helmet on, means Sisters of Battle would be easily mistaken for men. And that many people in the Imperium have really, really bad eyesight due to poor medical care.

So why are SoB not extinct? Distance, battlefield conditions like smoke and fog, etc. can easily make them look androgynous even now, after all.

And if they wait until they can get a good look, then they can just as well ask the soldier they are about to execute - and when they get a female voice in response all is good.

Personnaly, while it does make sense of SoB to have a standard mandatory haircut up to a certain point, I don't like the squared bob cut they sport now. To me its a late 80's early 90's fashion disaster a bit like Abbadon haircut (except I love ot hate Abbadon). Its purely for esthetic reason and frankly I would be more in favor for more sisters with helmets since they are probably the coolest one amongst Imperial forces or maybe hoods.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't know, I like the idea of the standardized squared-off bob they've got now, it's roughly like how you'd see a medieval monastery and everyone would have a tonsure and a fringe. The Order regulates haircuts.

As to whether different Orders requite different haircuts, possibly but if they were a plastic kit you wouldn't be putting heads with multiple standardized-across-squads hairdos in it.

Marines are monks like SoB are nuns, but they have varying haircuts. It does not seem to be a big issue really.

Says you. I enforce baldness in my Space Marines. (That may be because they're Salamanders and I can't figure out a colour of hair to stick above jet-black skin that doesn't look at least slightly ridiculous).

Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.

Hoods are taken by the DA dress-wearers. Also Inquistors.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If that's the case, the Sisters shouldn't have a 3+ Save. They should be down to a 5+ save.

I'd be okay with this. Keep the armour but make it a 5+ just because of how utterly terribly designed it is.

I'd still prefer the redesign, obviously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


Marines are very secularized monks, the imagery and language are dramatically less religious than the Sisters'. They've lost touch with their monastic roots in favour of their own distinct sci-fi persona.

Tell that to the Chaplains.