I had a similar idea at the beginning but making a brigade deteachament
patriarch with a unit of genestealers (they will reroll cult with strategms), primus with big unit of acolytes and heavy weapons (they will auto pass morale with stratagems) 3 rockgrinders, 3 small units of acolytes in them, 3 sentinels with missile launcher, 2 small units of methamorphs(ambush), and 2 units of acolytes(ambush) or 2 units of neophytes.
I think that the problem with this list is that we only have 2/3 "big" miniatures (rockgrinder) and all weapons with multiple wounds are going to them, and kill them easy..
And at at the end id prefer mix with a brigade of guard, for 700/800 points you can have 6 units "inmune" to moral, some heavy weapons and a lot of bodies to capture points (and 11 scommand points with kreed)
With the remaining 1300 points you can make full cult genestealer ambush units.
My biggest doubt is what is better, big units, or small units to ambush.. If you faill ambush, both will be dead.
-With big unit its easy reroll ambush or charge, but if you fail too, its a really big problem. Also if you assault and kill one or two units, next you must go walking around the table.. so all fire is going to them.
-With small units, you will roll more ambush, and have more chance to assault, but then there are 2 problems, overwatch.. and dont have the power required to kill the enemy unit..
zamerion wrote: I had a similar idea at the beginning but making a brigade deteachament
My biggest doubt is what is better, big units, or small units to ambush.. If you faill ambush, both will be dead.
-With big unit its easy reroll ambush or charge, but if you fail too, its a really big problem. Also if you assault and kill one or two units, next you must go walking around the table.. so all fire is going to them.
-With small units, you will roll more ambush, and have more chance to assault, but then there are 2 problems, overwatch.. and dont have the power required to kill the enemy unit..
The drills are a little more versatile and can take out tough units or horde units as the mortal wounds spill over, and so they are a flex unit.
Thank you for saying this. I didnt remember that mortal wounds spill over!
Also, magus, you deploy it on table or use ambush?
Big units. You take turns deploying units this time around, and the person who finishes deploying first goes first. which is why most of the stuff in my list are either big units or in transports, and i have a spare transport ican put heros in to drop my deployment coutn even lower should i need.
Magus if he has might from beyond then deploy him on the table. If he has mind control or Mass hypnosis you have to ambush or turn 1 you might not be in range of your desired target. Don't give might from beyond to the patriarch. You'll want to use that on what ever unit needs the extra push to destroy an important unit, and the patriarch is almost always in ambush so you might get a bad roll and he'll be out of range to help you out. I usualy give the patriarch the weakest of the spell either mass hypnosis if my opponent over watch sucks or they ahve lots of msu, and i give him Mind control if my opponent doesn't have anything big & shooty like a imperial knight or land raider.
So someone on one of my FB pages asked for a potential maximum amount of mortal wounds that could be done in the first turn for a 2k point game..
I instantly thought of GSC.. and here is what I got.
3 Units of 20 acolytes, each with 4 drills at 460pts a unit,
presuming you did go like rolls... all 3 units make charge and you got amazing rolls on the Drills special.. you are causing 120 mortal wounds in a single turn
(capped at 3 unit to leave points for units so they can Ambush)
Im still thinking that big units arent the best idea.
2 or 3 units of 15/20 miniatures of T3 are really very easy to kill, and with the heavy weapons are very expensive units. Yes, when you assault with the ambush you can kill one or 2 units (if they are near) but the next turn you are dead.
Also deploy 20 miniatures more than 9 ums from ebemy units, sometimes will be hard.
So i have 2 lists to test
The friendly:
Brigade genestealer cult
-Patriarch with 2 familiars
-Magus
-Primus
-3 goliath rockgrinder, heavy stubbers, demolition charges, incinerators
-3 scout sentinels, heavy flamers
-2 x 10 neophytes
-15 genestealers
-2x 5 metamophs whips
-3 x 5 hybrids , 3 heavy rock drill (one each)
-15 hybrids, 6 heavy rock cutter
1966 points 12 command points
Maybe one familiar go out and little fixes more to add other magus.
Patriarch with genestealers, reroll ambush if i need. Primus with big units of hybrids (to kill big creatures), and auto pass moral if i need.
The small units of hybrids in goliaths.
6 units with ambush (+ patriarch and primus)
And this is the ugly list:
Brigade astra militarum
-Kreed
-2 company commander
-3 commisars
-6 x 10 company squad, 4 mortars
-3 scout sentinels, multilaser
-3 x 3 heavy squads mortars
Batalion genestealer cult
-2 primus
-6 x 5 hybrids , 6 heavy rock drills
Batalion genestealer cult
-2 primus
-6 x 5 hybrids , 6 heavy rock drills
zamerion wrote: Im still thinking that big units arent the best idea.
2 or 3 units of 15/20 miniatures of T3 are really very easy to kill, and with the heavy weapons are very expensive units. Yes, when you assault with the ambush you can kill one or 2 units (if they are near) but the next turn you are dead.
Also deploy 20 miniatures more than 9 ums from ebemy units, sometimes will be hard.
That is true
It all depends on how badly you want that first turn..
The large squad sizes if you want that greater chance at first turn
If you are not phased then MSU (which if you are taking Guard is the better option)
zamerion wrote: Im still thinking that big units arent the best idea.
2 or 3 units of 15/20 miniatures of T3 are really very easy to kill, and with the heavy weapons are very expensive units. Yes, when you assault with the ambush you can kill one or 2 units (if they are near) but the next turn you are dead.
Also deploy 20 miniatures more than 9 ums from ebemy units, sometimes will be hard.
That is true
It all depends on how badly you want that first turn..
The large squad sizes if you want that greater chance at first turn
If you are not phased then MSU (which if you are taking Guard is the better option)
I like the second list Zamerion. I think Drillcolytes are def gonna be the way to go with cult this edition, and I think 2/5 is too high in terms of both points and the danger of them getting sniped out. In terms of unit sizes though, in addition to the first turn issue, I see unlimited overwatch being the problem. Some units with huge volume of fire could actually very easily wipe out a 5 man squad, or do substantial damage to multiple units if they fail their charges (as is liable to happen if, say, you're 9 inches away due to rolling a 4/5 on ambush. You also dilute the usefulness of the Primuses somewhat. What I am wondering is whether you could do something along the lines of 2x10 and 2x5 in each detachment to maximise the Primus benefits whilst removing the potential for dangerous overwatch. You also don't have to take 16 units to begin on the board with if you cut the number of ambushers a bit, which frees up points to run fast melee stuff from say, Nids (since we can share detachments with them) and pose a combat threat with the entire army. You can use Mucolid Spores in FA slots to fill things out.
I will say that one other nice thing about MSU is that you don't even need a Patriarch for morale immunity really!
I like the second list Zamerion. I think Drillcolytes are def gonna be the way to go with cult this edition, and I think 2/5 is too high in terms of both points and the danger of them getting sniped out.
I will say that one other nice thing about MSU is that you don't even need a Patriarch for morale immunity really!
I can see that being a potentially good character killer.. and also being a cheap option with 2 damage at -4
benlisted cutters are tyhe best, re-read through the rule for drills as i had been playing it pretty closed book, since i've had a good number of games. The friend who brought up morale woudns spilling over, then looked that book and pointed out that you stop rolling for the drill once the model is slain.
SO if you do some math hammer cutters win out for points effectiveness and in damage per model. against imperial knights (2+/3+ save T8) and other such big stuff. due to the reduction in armor. Drills might do more damage to 4+ save vehicles, but i think the difference wouldn't warrent the price tag so i didn't do the math on it. Even more so the snip rule works well for finishing off characters and monsters.
Sorry I am not seeing 12 Command pts there.. I only count 6
brigade detachment gives you 9 CP and all armies start with 3+ for being battle forged.
zamerion wrote: Im still thinking that big units arent the best idea.
2 or 3 units of 15/20 miniatures of T3 are really very easy to kill, and with the heavy weapons are very expensive units. Yes, when you assault with the ambush you can kill one or 2 units (if they are near) but the next turn you are dead.
Also deploy 20 miniatures more than 9 ums from ebemy units, sometimes will be hard.
Your opponent often deploys with a large gap either in front of or behind them. If they deploy funny because of your ambush your already messing them up. Coherency is 2" so your 20 models unit on 32mm bases can span up to 65" or 90% of of the length of your average warhammer game table. If you can only connect to one maybe two units you and your opponent have set up on two totally different tables, and you need to figure out how that happened....
As the days go by i more and more gravitate toward bigger units. You can only effect one unit with might from beyond. as such a 20 man unit vs a 5 man unit can be dramatically different. in just how dramatically powerful that spell can be. Do you put +1 strength on 16 +(5 from cultist knives) attacks or 61 (+20 for cultist knives) attacks?? because that's a really big difference. on top of this the 20 man squad can chain over to your primus; allowing you to hit on 2+ rerolling in situations where you didn't cult ambush that unit with the primus. This seems too good to pass up in my book.
When the 20 man unit rolls a 6 (or a 5 on ambush with a high charge roll and/or movement roll) can surround transports and big shooty monsters forcing them to stay locked in combat with no possibility of escape, and in the process potentially also protecting you from enemy shooting. Even better with the large unit you can charge two or three units, leaving one unit alive on purpose by doing your best not to kill one, and then hold that unit hostage till the next combat round to keep you safe from enemy shooting.
Lastly, the primus provides a reroll and so do your strategems. You can only use one reroll per phase. As such your min squads are relying on all lock, while having 3 or 4 big ambushes allow you to use a reroll on all or most of your ambushes to get them exactly where you want. Which is why i believe my last list contains 4 squads. 1 squad that can roll with primus using rerolling. Then the iconward & Patrarch can go with another two different squads using strategems to let them be abit safer. The last squad had a magus that went with shotgun neophytes that can preform well with rolls of 1,2. & 4+ rolls.
Which brings me to a final and mildly separate point. You guys really should look at shotgun neophtyes. They are cheap and versitile. 114 points for 36 shotgun shots and 2d6 flamer hits can melt all the basic units most armys bring, and give you a nice edge. Really great for taking out tau marker lights and they just demolish most eldar units.
Thanks for clarify the drill. Then id prefer cutters.
So you think that the best way to play genestealer cult army is an alpha strike? Kill everything as you can the first turn with big units.
The problem with this is that the enemy begins first, or stole your initiative. Or other alpha strike armys or armys with only a few units and he can deploy them very separated.
With small units you can use the ambush 3 turns, and select where and when make the damege (yes less damage than a big unit)
i really dont know
Also, i have a question, the rule of ambush said:
during deployment you can set this unit up instead of on battlefield.
other similar rules said:
during deployment, you can set it up in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield"
you need to select a unit, and said this is on reserve? so, it counts as a unit in the deployment, and you need go one by one?
Yeah both deployments work the same they each take up a slot in your deployment You set up both units else were where the else where is doesn't matter matter, but they each count as a set up.
I don't see the big units being any more or less resilient than the small ones other than morale, and the patriarch can make this not a thing. MSU is less of a thing as you can split fire every model.
There is definitely an element where you want to do damage, but the genestealer cult models are all kind of skewed toward getting the jump on a unit or at least hopping in combat quick to hide.
If for whatever reason you go against an opponent where cult ambushing to much is not gonna work you can just deploy on the table, and run if you must.
To answer your what if they just deploy a few units etc. 1 you have to deploy as many units on the table as you do in reserves. So if they only deploy a few units they are likely a elite army so those few units might hurt them, even if they ally in something really small to take up the table space. You can deploy your big units to take up a lot of the table deny enemy reserves, while also charging. Not every model in a unit has to pile in so if your opponent deploys garbage. Clean it up with 5-10 of your 20 man acolyte units and strike the other 15-10 across the table to help take up space, and make enemy reserve deployment more difficult.
Also note the game isn't all killing you also need to try to win at the objective if tabling isn't an option.
recently i ran 4 trucks with neophtyes inside as my "core" and this worked out nicely as it was really tough for the points you pay. Trucks are pretty tough, and if you look at some of the big heavy weapons you have to pay more than the truck to take them out, and these are on high rolls. For instance imperial guard needs to roll really well with 2 lascannons to take out a truck in 1 turn. To take out a turck in one turn half the time you need 9 lascannons for guard ( 8 for space marines). These cost 2 or 3 times the truck to pull off. Then we haven't even killed all the neophtyes inside of the truck. So, you can set a good core and not worried about being tabled, and odds are your core will still be around doing work while you ambush units are being aggressive.
edit: for prospective a land raid can be kitted out with 4 lascannon shots, a hunter killer missle, and a melta and alone it wont taker out a truck in a single turn. while gcosting nearly or over 400 points?? The cheapist ithink you can get away with is lascannon devastors for ~280, and these are for a 50/50 shot of taking it out in one turn of shooting.
I like the second list Zamerion. I think Drillcolytes are def gonna be the way to go with cult this edition, and I think 2/5 is too high in terms of both points and the danger of them getting sniped out.
I will say that one other nice thing about MSU is that you don't even need a Patriarch for morale immunity really!
I can see that being a potentially good character killer.. and also being a cheap option with 2 damage at -4
benlisted cutters are tyhe best, re-read through the rule for drills as i had been playing it pretty closed book, since i've had a good number of games. The friend who brought up morale woudns spilling over, then looked that book and pointed out that you stop rolling for the drill once the model is slain.
SO if you do some math hammer cutters win out for points effectiveness and in damage per model. against imperial knights (2+/3+ save T8) and other such big stuff. due to the reduction in armor. Drills might do more damage to 4+ save vehicles, but i think the difference wouldn't warrent the price tag so i didn't do the math on it. Even more so the snip rule works well for finishing off characters and monsters.
Not convinced on cutters > drills, certainly not all the time at least. Sure, you stop rolling mortal wounds once the model is slain, but to work the drill only has to be hitting a multiwound model, not a non-vehicle with 3-7 wounds remaining. Its the wounds remaining that really irks me, as you will have to roll models one at a time to optimise - attack with regular acolytes until it's below 8, then come in with the cutters. Against say 3 wound models you'll be alternating between cutters and normal guys if the cutters fail to wound, which will be a massive hassle. Assuming you spread the cutters out through units, you may not even get the optimal attack pattern - if your one cutter fails to instagib, you will have to attack with the normal acolytes before you can get to the next unit's cutter! The 'roll higher than wounds remaining' element is also far from ideal, as you only have decent odds when something would die to 3-4 more wounds anyway.
The drill, on the other hand, statistically gets slightly over 2 mortal wounds, on average (.55 or so prob to roll 2+ then 3+). that means across enough of them, you average essentially 3 wounds (2 mortal) each time you do wound. Sure, due to lower AP you're sligtly less likely to, but the invuln save ignoring of the mortal wounds is pretty tasty as a counterbalance. Obviously 3 wounds is higher than the damage of the cutters, though I know that doesn't account for the ease of getting past a save and the snip chance, where applicable.
Point being, despite the limitation to a single model I think drills are more generally useful, largely as they work on vehicles too. I could definitely see a big squad with 4+ cutters doing anti monster duty though, as it would more readily be able to plan when the cutter attacks go. Hell, drills softening stuff up for cutters seems a great idea! Fire drills at a monster first to chip wounds off, once you're close to 3-5 begin to use normal acolytes, then go for the kill with cutters. Guess the conclusion is both are options, which is probably a good thing!
So any ideas on what AM forces to take with cult? If you assume most cult units are going to try for ambush, what would be the best picks to start on the board?
Not convinced on cutters > drills, certainly not all the time at least. Sure, you stop rolling mortal wounds once the model is slain, but to work the drill only has to be hitting a multiwound model, thing!
If you look at my post of you do the math the cutters do mote damage against most targets. The special rule is just a cherry on top for the cutters. The drill does 2.77 damage effectively, but the power so means you kind of lose out on more.
AM allies take them for fliers. Dont replace our troops with theirs as the commisar buffs army worth it and the troops in chimeras arent as good as neophytes in trucks.
So we pay more points for worse units then we had. No other army got their core rules completely gutted.
The solution people are giving is to use trucks instead. so the best way to use GSC is to not actually use the abortion that is their new special rule, the flavorful thing that the entire army hinged on. Walking onto a random table edge wouldn't be so bad if we weren't paper thin melee only units who die if looked at and can't afford to spend half the game slowly walking at their stupid human move speed towards something to attack. we're purple orks now with lower toughness. Cool. Glad our unique playstyle was gak all over.
Danny slag wrote: So we pay more points for worse units then we had. No other army got their core rules completely gutted.
The solution people are giving is to use trucks instead. so the best way to use GSC is to not actually use the abortion that is their new special rule, the thing that the entire army hinged on. Walking onto a random table edge wouldn't be so bad if we weren't paper thin melee only units who die if looked at and can't afford to spend half the game slowly walking at their stupid human move speed towards something to attack. we're purple orks now with lower toughness. Cool. Glad our unique playstyle was gak all over.
Trucks are unique to genestealers and are amazing.
There are 3.5 reasons to bring neophtyes over astra miltarum allies. All situations different to that bring AM as they do techniqualy have better shooting.
1 & 1.5 Neophtyes in trucks ROCK!!! very tough unit with 10 T6 4+/6+++ and 10 T3 5+ wounds for 157 points is great. It has tons of daka throwing out 10 rapid fire shots, twin autocannon, and a heavy stubber. If the car gets charge everyone has pistols so they can shoot from inside. Lastly the other sub reason is that this is 2 deployment letting you sink more into cult ambush while also having few drops.
2. You can take a unit of 20 so you heavy weapopns can be well protected. These 20 man units can do work in melee with might from beyond asi t buffs 20 models. It also gives you 16-18 models in front of your heavy and special weapons before you need to pick them up.
3. They can cult ambush. Ambushing shotgun are stupidly cost effect, and only really do poorly on a 3 or on a 1 roll in which you end up on a bad table edge.
No other army gets more gutted??? imperial fist, raven wing, salamander, most of the traitor legions, etc dont even have rules. Canticles for other armies are meh. Ultra marines don't have nay special rules for them and they are the flag ship army of the game. These indexs are temporary rules hold overs for when codex drop.
Danny slag wrote: So we pay more points for worse units then we had. No other army got their core rules completely gutted.
The solution people are giving is to use trucks instead. so the best way to use GSC is to not actually use the abortion that is their new special rule, the thing that the entire army hinged on. Walking onto a random table edge wouldn't be so bad if we weren't paper thin melee only units who die if looked at and can't afford to spend half the game slowly walking at their stupid human move speed towards something to attack. we're purple orks now with lower toughness. Cool. Glad our unique playstyle was gak all over.
Trucks are unique to genestealers and are amazing.
There are 3.5 reasons to bring neophtyes over astra miltarum allies. All situations different to that bring AM as they do techniqualy have better shooting.
1 & 1.5 Neophtyes in trucks ROCK!!! very tough unit with 10 T6 4+/6+++ and 10 T3 5+ wounds for 157 points is great. It has tons of daka throwing out 10 rapid fire shots, twin autocannon, and a heavy stubber. If the car gets charge everyone has pistols so they can shoot from inside. Lastly the other sub reason is that this is 2 deployment letting you sink more into cult ambush while also having few drops.
2. You can take a unit of 20 so you heavy weapopns can be well protected. These 20 man units can do work in melee with might from beyond asi t buffs 20 models. It also gives you 16-18 models in front of your heavy and special weapons before you need to pick them up.
3. They can cult ambush. Ambushing shotgun are stupidly cost effect, and only really do poorly on a 3 or on a 1 roll in which you end up on a bad table edge.
No other army gets more gutted??? imperial fist, raven wing, salamander, most of the traitor legions, etc dont even have rules. Canticles for other armies are meh. Ultra marines don't have nay special rules for them and they are the flag ship army of the game. These indexs are temporary rules hold overs for when codex drop.
so one unit per game, of neophytes with shotguns are good, 50% of the time or if 100% of the time if in trucks. Your 3.5 reasons are one unit just repeated in different ways. Awesome, unfortunately that leaves the rest of our army as trash. So i guess i'll mothball 80% of my army. Isn't that exactly what GW stated they were trying to do away with? Having armies where most of the units were not worth using?
Imperial fists, raven wing, and salamanders arent' an army, space marines are. Space marines still have chapter tactics, drop pods, ect. What was done to GSC is the equivielent of if chapter tactics and drop pods were removed from space marines.
I didn't pick up GSC to be imperial guard lite, i picked it up because i liked their unique playstyle of being paper thin sneaky gits, now all the melee units are worthless garbage, which is the majority of the army. I have 40 acolyte hybrids and 10 metamorphs that might as well be dog gak.
The best unit to cult ambush is the neophytes since they can shoot so aren't a complete waste on 50% of the results. But the best unit to transport in trucks is also neophytes, so i'm trying to figure wtf to do with what used to be 2000 pts of models I have lovingly worked on which is now only about 300 pts of useful stuff and 1700 points of trash. If I wanted to play "run up the board in trucks shooting inaccurate low damage mass volume fire" i'd play orks.
Scions could be interesting in that they can be placed in areas to support ambushing units with special weapons fire. I have a pair of Hydras/Wyverns painted for my GC, so they'll probably get a try from me at some point. Fliers obviously would be interesting too.
Danny slag wrote: So we pay more points for worse units then we had. No other army got their core rules completely gutted.
The solution people are giving is to use trucks instead. so the best way to use GSC is to not actually use the abortion that is their new special rule, the thing that the entire army hinged on. Walking onto a random table edge wouldn't be so bad if we weren't paper thin melee only units who die if looked at and can't afford to spend half the game slowly walking at their stupid human move speed towards something to attack. we're purple orks now with lower toughness. Cool. Glad our unique playstyle was gak all over.
Trucks are unique to genestealers and are amazing.
There are 3.5 reasons to bring neophtyes over astra miltarum allies. All situations different to that bring AM as they do techniqualy have better shooting.
1 & 1.5 Neophtyes in trucks ROCK!!! very tough unit with 10 T6 4+/6+++ and 10 T3 5+ wounds for 157 points is great. It has tons of daka throwing out 10 rapid fire shots, twin autocannon, and a heavy stubber. If the car gets charge everyone has pistols so they can shoot from inside. Lastly the other sub reason is that this is 2 deployment letting you sink more into cult ambush while also having few drops.
2. You can take a unit of 20 so you heavy weapopns can be well protected. These 20 man units can do work in melee with might from beyond asi t buffs 20 models. It also gives you 16-18 models in front of your heavy and special weapons before you need to pick them up.
3. They can cult ambush. Ambushing shotgun are stupidly cost effect, and only really do poorly on a 3 or on a 1 roll in which you end up on a bad table edge.
No other army gets more gutted??? imperial fist, raven wing, salamander, most of the traitor legions, etc dont even have rules. Canticles for other armies are meh. Ultra marines don't have nay special rules for them and they are the flag ship army of the game. These indexs are temporary rules hold overs for when codex drop.
so one unit per game, of neophytes with shotguns are good, 50% of the time or if 100% of the time if in trucks. Your 3.5 reasons are one unit just repeated in different ways. Awesome, unfortunately that leaves the rest of our army as trash. So i guess i'll mothball 80% of my army. Isn't that exactly what GW stated they were trying to do away with? Having armies where most of the units were not worth using?
Imperial fists, raven wing, and salamanders arent' an army, space marines are. Space marines still have chapter tactics, drop pods, ect. What was done to GSC is the equivielent of if chapter tactics and drop pods were removed from space marines.
I didn't pick up GSC to be imperial guard lite, i picked it up because i liked their unique playstyle of being paper thin sneaky gits, now all the melee units are worthless garbage, which is the majority of the army. I have 40 acolyte hybrids and 10 metamorphs that might as well be dog gak.
The best unit to cult ambush is the neophytes since they can shoot so aren't a complete waste on 50% of the results. But the best unit to transport in trucks is also neophytes, so i'm trying to figure wtf to do with what used to be 2000 pts of models I have lovingly worked on which is now only about 300 pts of useful stuff and 1700 points of trash. If I wanted to play "run up the board in trucks shooting inaccurate low damage mass volume fire" i'd play orks.
Hey Danny this will be my last reply to you as i can see your inconsolably upset at a game you have very little experience with. SVC as an are army very competive, and very agressive. One of the most agressive and will result in more turn 1 charges than most other armys. As an army they are quite tough as many units are cheap like trucks that are tough for the price or neophytes that are relatively highbwound coun5 for the points.
Acolytes do alot of damag3 and 2ill charge 50% of the time with rerollw to thier cult ambush and better than that if you attempt a 9" charge and reroll one of the dice.
Our genestealers at first I thought they were bad but then I mess with one genestealers, and out genestealers being able to chqrge turn one are powerful as they dont need me to bring a glass cannon swarm lord to charge turn 1.
Our patriarch is just better than broodlords for the price.
Metamorphs are abit meh. They do good dqmage for thier points, but dont do anyone thing particularly well. but aberrant can do a real number to large tough models lik3 one raiders and knights.
Anyway if all you can s33 is rage, than it is not warranted. I've won game's now against eldar tau, nods, space marine, AM, and death guard now. All of thes3 gam3w felt very competive, and nev3r hqv3 I really felt i was at an unfair disadvantage.
Danny slag wrote: So we pay more points for worse units then we had. No other army got their core rules completely gutted.
The solution people are giving is to use trucks instead. so the best way to use GSC is to not actually use the abortion that is their new special rule, the thing that the entire army hinged on. Walking onto a random table edge wouldn't be so bad if we weren't paper thin melee only units who die if looked at and can't afford to spend half the game slowly walking at their stupid human move speed towards something to attack. we're purple orks now with lower toughness. Cool. Glad our unique playstyle was gak all over.
Trucks are unique to genestealers and are amazing.
There are 3.5 reasons to bring neophtyes over astra miltarum allies. All situations different to that bring AM as they do techniqualy have better shooting.
1 & 1.5 Neophtyes in trucks ROCK!!! very tough unit with 10 T6 4+/6+++ and 10 T3 5+ wounds for 157 points is great. It has tons of daka throwing out 10 rapid fire shots, twin autocannon, and a heavy stubber. If the car gets charge everyone has pistols so they can shoot from inside. Lastly the other sub reason is that this is 2 deployment letting you sink more into cult ambush while also having few drops.
2. You can take a unit of 20 so you heavy weapopns can be well protected. These 20 man units can do work in melee with might from beyond asi t buffs 20 models. It also gives you 16-18 models in front of your heavy and special weapons before you need to pick them up.
3. They can cult ambush. Ambushing shotgun are stupidly cost effect, and only really do poorly on a 3 or on a 1 roll in which you end up on a bad table edge.
No other army gets more gutted??? imperial fist, raven wing, salamander, most of the traitor legions, etc dont even have rules. Canticles for other armies are meh. Ultra marines don't have nay special rules for them and they are the flag ship army of the game. These indexs are temporary rules hold overs for when codex drop.
so one unit per game, of neophytes with shotguns are good, 50% of the time or if 100% of the time if in trucks. Your 3.5 reasons are one unit just repeated in different ways. Awesome, unfortunately that leaves the rest of our army as trash. So i guess i'll mothball 80% of my army. Isn't that exactly what GW stated they were trying to do away with? Having armies where most of the units were not worth using?
Imperial fists, raven wing, and salamanders arent' an army, space marines are. Space marines still have chapter tactics, drop pods, ect. What was done to GSC is the equivielent of if chapter tactics and drop pods were removed from space marines.
I didn't pick up GSC to be imperial guard lite, i picked it up because i liked their unique playstyle of being paper thin sneaky gits, now all the melee units are worthless garbage, which is the majority of the army. I have 40 acolyte hybrids and 10 metamorphs that might as well be dog gak.
The best unit to cult ambush is the neophytes since they can shoot so aren't a complete waste on 50% of the results. But the best unit to transport in trucks is also neophytes, so i'm trying to figure wtf to do with what used to be 2000 pts of models I have lovingly worked on which is now only about 300 pts of useful stuff and 1700 points of trash. If I wanted to play "run up the board in trucks shooting inaccurate low damage mass volume fire" i'd play orks.
Hey Danny this will be my last reply to you as i can see your inconsolably upset at a game you have very little experience with. SVC as an are army very competive, and very agressive. One of the most agressive and will result in more turn 1 charges than most other armys. As an army they are quite tough as many units are cheap like trucks that are tough for the price or neophytes that are relatively highbwound coun5 for the points.
Acolytes do alot of damag3 and 2ill charge 50% of the time with rerollw to thier cult ambush and better than that if you attempt a 9" charge and reroll one of the dice.
Our genestealers at first I thought they were bad but then I mess with one genestealers, and out genestealers being able to chqrge turn one are powerful as they dont need me to bring a glass cannon swarm lord to charge turn 1.
Our patriarch is just better than broodlords for the price.
Metamorphs are abit meh. They do good dqmage for thier points, but dont do anyone thing particularly well. but aberrant can do a real number to large tough models lik3 one raiders and knights.
Anyway if all you can s33 is rage, than it is not warranted. I've won game's now against eldar tau, nods, space marine, AM, and death guard now. All of thes3 gam3w felt very competive, and nev3r hqv3 I really felt i was at an unfair disadvantage.
Goodbye mr Danny slag.
Every time you try to claim they aren't bad you have to use rerolls to make your point valid. Rerolls for cult ambush, rerolls for charging. Where are you getting all of these rerolls every turn? And if a unit requires a bunch of rerolls to be viable, doesn't that prove it's not?
So one unit of acolytes takes 2 rerolls to have a 50% chance to ambush and a less than 50% chance of making a charge. So blowing 2 rerolls you have less than a 25% chance of one unit doing its job. What exactly are the odds of a drop pod stern guard unit doing its job? 100%, and doesn't require rerolls. What kind of dumpster fire of an army relies on rerolls for everything?
Neophytes are ok, genestealers ar good. But acolytes and metamorphes, which make up most GSC armies, are utter trash now. And barring all that and what has me so salty is that they ripped the flavor of the army out. They took out the swarming sneaky ambushing style and made GSC bland.
To be fair, all the unit cycling was dizzying. I wish there was a Return to Shadows mechanic - even if limited - but I also think we might see it return as a stratagem or something.
gorgon wrote: To be fair, all the unit cycling was dizzying. I wish there was a Return to Shadows mechanic - even if limited - but I also think we might see it return as a stratagem or something.
I agree it was clunky, and I wouldn't have minded something different, as long as it had kept with the flavour of the horde of sneaky GSC. But they removed so much of what made GSC work as a faction, and then raised the costs, all without rebalancing to account for that.
I've used this exemple to death but it would be like removing marker lights, supporting fire, and crisis suits jumping ability from tau, then increasing their cost. They changed how suits worked, but didn't flat out remove their flavor of how they work. Id have been fine if they changed return to shadows, or changed the units so they didn't need return to shadows to work, and managed to kept the feel of the army.
Just pulling things out of myvarse here for examples, One turn GSC units can replace their normal movement with a 12 inch movement as long as it's into a piece of cover. Or, every turn roll a die and on a 5 or 6 a single additional model gets added to the unit to simulate more GSC crawling out of the shadows. Anything. But they just ripped out rules and did nothing to rebalance or rework the army without those removed rules.
Hell even giving acolytes a movement of 7 instead of 6 would have made them worth considering. Now they'll just spend the whole game slowly walking several feet across the board with no hopes of doing anything useful.
We went from a paper thin ambushing melee swarm that played totally uniquely, to now needing to play as a mechanized high volume low accuracy shooting horde in trucks, essentially purple orks. no other army I've seen has had its entire flavor and theme so drastically changed. Every answer to what's been removed is "use trucks instead of ambush." Doesn't the fact that it's a bad idea to use their one remaining special rule kind of prove these were badly designed rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's another question I have. Since the whole army needs to be mechanized to be effective now how do we use all our character bubbles? Min squad of neophytes is 10 man and goliath transports 10 max, so can't ride along, won't be near any other units since they're all in trucks.
It's like no one thought about how this would play. It's wanting to be a horde melee footslogging infantry army but doesn't have any of the tools needed to make that work anymore, namely either effective range or a way to cross the board. But in the flip side none of the special rules synergize with a mechanized army. It has no real identify or Intra army cohesiveness.
Just a suggestion, but one way Tyranids might help their Cultist Brothers and sisters is with a Vanguard(?) with Deathleaper, and three Lictors...+1 Command point and several Bio Ninjas to pop into the foes backfield.
pinecone77 wrote: Just a suggestion, but one way Tyranids might help their Cultist Brothers and sisters is with a Vanguard(?) with Deathleaper, and three Lictors...+1 Command point and several Bio Ninjas to pop into the foes backfield.
That is sad! Oh, well I guess you'd need a differant HQ... So are any GSC players planning to use big blocks of Conscripts to hold the table while the Brotherhoods Ambush?
So...Possable Detachment..
HQ: Brood Lord
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
Elite: Lictor
That should run just under 300, add a unit of Hive Fleet Stealers as Troops as points allow.
Looks like this would be a useful addition, lots of close in DS Bio Ninjas, and a Psycher that can cast off a differing Table.
pinecone77 wrote: That is sad! Oh, well I guess you'd need a differant HQ... So are any GSC players planning to use big blocks of Conscripts to hold the table while the Brotherhoods Ambush?
definitely a unite that can stick around, but where we are weak is against enemy infiltrators. You need models that can take out infiltrators as they can limit the space you have to ambush either to 0 or make it so you have no access to good ambushes.
In this role ratling & scouts can deny some infiltrators, scouts, and enemy deep strike units. Ratlings can provide okay anti character. Scout sentinels don't do as good at stopping infiltrators, but can compete with other scouts and stop deep strikes. THe scouts also provide good flamer dakka for clearing out infiltrators.
Stealth suits and scout squads (Marines) will be big trouble. Both of these if set up first can deploy right next to your deployment line and create a terrible bubble that makes ambushing difficult. i haven;t looked super hard, but can't find any other ways around this other than killing a hole through the enemy.
Which is why i love the trucks so much as they are tough and bring lots of dakka, to prepare for ambushes.
Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
Red Corsair wrote:Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
I agree with you one some of this and disagree with lots.
I think you over value toughness on models. the army has lots of anti over watch tools. The main one is mass hypnosis, but we also ahve scout sentinels that can charge turn one, and trucks that can eat and over watch for your units. Cult ambush with command point rerolls should hit true ~50% of the time, and even if you roll a 4+ a 9" charge can also be made decently well with acess to command point reroll. I'd say two or 3 well equipped ambush units with companies hero is where i'd say max is. Otherwise you run out of melee room quickly.
Acolytes are great.You under estimate thier heavy weapons. They cost in the ball park of lascannons (a heavy weapon, that can be taken by 2 guard troops 30 points total, or a space marine for 25 points ~38) and do the same thing, but are subject to might from beyond and primus buff they can make them 3 attacks 2+ reroll 1's STR 9 -4ap 2DMG or Str 9 AP -3 2.77 DMG. Even with out it they compete pretty well against a lascannon at 2 attacks STR 8 good rend multi damage.
On a side note i found out why you'd use the drill over the clippers today, and that's against invuln saves. 4+ and 5+ invulns the drilll starts to win out as the AP is the same, but the drill does more damage.
Abberants are really good at smashing big stuff like land raiders, but acolytes can do this too with weapons for the similar cost, but then also stay decent at taking out squads of models. Where as once the big threat is gone, or if thier is no big threat you wonder why the abberants are on the table. Also for similar points you've got 8 wounds at T5 5+ save. Just feels kinda poor in a take all comers kind of list.
Neophtyes are great i agree. If you do the math las cannons are better than mining lasers for the points FYI. in fact all of our mining weapons are kind of meh. Today shotgun neophytes were my MVP's they did work taking out 2 tack squads and almsot taking out a land speeder in single turn. Those guys are nuts.
Love genestealers, but acolyte feel abit better. the T4 and 5+ invuln aren't really worth it as you can mitigate over watch shooting via hypnosis or surrogate charge from our vehicles (either trucks or grinders from GSC or our AM chimeras and torax, or even scount sentials turn 1). From here the T4 is about going into other turns, but as you can assign your attacks you can hold enemy units hostage to protect you from enemy shooting, by surrounding a dreadnaught with genestealers, but alocoated most of your attacks into another unit so you spare the dreadnaught until your opponents turn. More over our ambush units make up thier points the turn they come onto the table. Acolyte can kill way above thier points cost the turn they hit the table.
Scions are pretty good and do a similar role, but you'll get more out of acolytes that ambush on a 5+ it's more a risk play as i say above you'll only get a about 50% of the time, but when you do the pay off is just so much more. Acolyte get 2 rending attacks + 1 attack on str 4, and reroll 1's. Add in buffs which both can get, and acolyte definitly come out on top for most possible damage out put. Again here i think your look at that 4+ save and thinking that's where it's at, but the point of a cult ambush is that one good charge that more than pays for itself, and anything extra is gravy.
GodDamUser wrote:I think a big thing with GSC is that in this Index is, it is designed to utilise Guard along side it.
It really depends as i've been saying Trucks are amazing!!! like all star units in the book . They kill other armor great with demo charges, and out dakka even a guard chimera with buffs in most situations against most targets. They are also wicked fast, and can take objectives on the map no problem. The rugged construction lets them stay around longer than a chimera s well. I think if you want to do mono GSC you need trucks in your list. In the game i played today my opponent with lots of melta and lasguns struggle to take out a truck per turn (from turn 2 on). While the trucks did great work with the demo charges just devastating enemy units. The amount of shooting these things put out per turn is crazy when matched with just how tough they are to take out.
I also ahve gained respect for the rock grinder as a nice acolyte transport, with the flamer. It over watches okay, and keep them safe, and lets you bring a hero like a magus to pocket buff said acolytes.
Other than that i'd say a lot of the units are paying a tax to cult ambush, but this tax is worth it. Nids are pretty bad at ambushing out side of lictors (i believe, which every one goes after characters, but that is also easily countered as your opponent will see it coming). Most of thier units have a tough time ambushing and then charging. You have to think tyranids need to bring a swarmlord who also needs a trygon on top of the unit of genestealers and brood lord to do what we can do with just a patriarch and the genestealers for half the investment. Also in this nid example you have to dazzy trains some of the genestealers back to the brood lord to keep thier +1 to hit buff, and the brood lord can't also charge with them on turn 1.
I think if you don't do trucks and grinders which are what we have that's good that isn't in ambush. Then ithink going AM to fill out your list is pretty good, and bring in 2 or 3 good ambush squads to support your AM force that is holding the table.
As for what to take in AM??? conscript wall with a gun line behind it, but you'll have a tough time making sure the table has hole in it that are 9" away from a enemy model where you can ambush onto the table. I like more aggressive models like the double flamer chimera where it can contest table space, and forces your enemy to deal with it instead of spreading out to try to prevent your ambushes. Scions are good, but redundant. There is only so much space 9" away from your enemy in some games, and it forces you to delay your army longer than you'd want.
Notable Am units: ( i haven't tried these so can be ignored abit)
Flamer Sentials (competes with scounts unit and stop enemy ambush units, none flamer options aren't worth the points due to heavy -1 to hit bring you to terrible 5+) (good counter charge unit)
Double flamer Chimera (similar to the truck, but need a turn to get into range. Force enemy to stay on thier side of the table. give you ambush space. Better than truck at anti infantry) (good counter charge unit)
Infantry platoons supported by officers (shoots holes into enemy lines to open up ambush space, and preasure the table)
Ratlling (preventing enemy ambush units, and keep you from getting zoned out from ambushes by scount units)
Red Corsair wrote:Honestly, I am a bit pissed that our army that had hardly any variety to begin with, now has less variety due to non viable options. Let me explain.
Metamorphs are absolute garbage, as someone noted already, whips are not ideal, they basically trigger when your unit dies. This is fine when your not paying 15ppm for a t3 5+ model. Mind numbingly stupid how expensive these are now, and they don't stack with rending which honestly makes sense and needed to happen, but not with a price hike as well. Now claw metas cost 7ppm more and don't rend, this is way to far. Whats even worse, is s6. The new wound chart means the rending claws on s4 platforms means your wounding up to T7 on 5's with a -1 save while the claws wound a mech on only a 3+ and again with no ap.
Hybrids are decent, again though the hike went too far. 11ppm for a t3 5+ save again with absolute trash for special weapons. Consider the cheaper option is 23 pts (CLEARLY a typo btw when you look at the cutter and saw) and you get 2 swings that are s8 -4 with 2 dmg. This is not good IMO. In fact this is hot trash just stick with the weight of normal rending. You get more bodies for more attacks that come with stock -1 ap.
Abberants are OK, but are WAY over cost still. No reason to take the picks over hammers, ever. You take the Abbs to deal multi damage not kill infantry, per point the hammers do more. It's -1 to hit, but generally +2 to wound on the picks against high T targets (3+ rather then 5+) while doing flat 3 damage rather then averaging 2 per pick. I want to like these but 41ppm for 2 t4 wounds is INSANE. Should have had 3 wounds IMO.
Purestrains, love them. They are the best unit in the book at assault. Fast, built in invuln and higher toughness. Only they have a real problem which I will get to in a minute.
Neophytes! These are the best unit entry in the book, BY A MILE. 5 points a dude with access to 2 grenade launchers and two mining lasers per 10. So while 5 T3 hybrids with a pair of cutters has to roll EXTREMELY lucky or have a ton of support to work and costs 101, 10 neaophytes loaded the way I suggested costs 88.... They don't require extreme luck to work. Their mining lasers hit on 4's while the cutter hits on 3's but wounds on 3's against t8 targets while the cutter wounds on 4's, and those are the targets we want either of these for. The lasers don't need to risk assault or overwatch and can be effective first turn and to top it all off they do more damage at d6. PLUS we have the grenades. Then we have all the ranged autoguns or flamers for over watch. Equal points of neophyes will kill equal points of hybrids, it's not even close. But these also have an issue for me like the puerstrains...
Two other armies we can allie in do our job better. Guard out shines us in shooting by a mile and nids out assault us and out shoot us. Literally our best two units in the book are purestrains which nids get at a 33% discount PLUS all the other better units, but we will ignore them for now. Guard has better infantry with cheap weapon teams and automatic orders.
Honestly, the design team WAY over adjusted for cult ambush. A guard scion cost the same a a hybrid only he AUTO drops anywhere while we require a 4+ AND he has better gear stock as well as upgrades.
It's actually quite sad because the entire faction consists of 3 unique characters (patriarch is a broodlord), two unique vehicles and just 4 unique infantry units. Yet they rushed this garbage out in extreme haste. I mean seriously, how on earth is a rock saw +1pt over the rock cutter?
I agree with you one some of this and disagree with lots.
I think you over value toughness on models. the army has lots of anti over watch tools. The main one is mass hypnosis, but we also ahve scout sentinels that can charge turn one, and trucks that can eat and over watch for your units. Cult ambush with command point rerolls should hit true ~50% of the time, and even if you roll a 4+ a 9" charge can also be made decently well with acess to command point reroll. I'd say two or 3 well equipped ambush units with companies hero is where i'd say max is. Otherwise you run out of melee room quickly.
Overvalue toughness? No offense mate but this is just silly and annoying. We pay 11ppm for acolytes and 15-19 for metamorphs thats insane for a t3 model with flack armor. especially when you consider we only have s3 pistols on those models that can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just check out a slugga boy if you don't believe me ITS IN THE SAME BOOK. As for over watch, yea sure I also play DE, i know the ways around overwatch, if they bubble wrap their army with the right units they don't even need to worry about your ambushing units to begin with. Best result is now staying over 9" away from enemies, meaning a simple daisy chain from cheap scouts by a marine player will put me in my own deployment zone lol. Every faction has a good screen btw. And if your relying on mass hypnosis just realize you only get the one attempt in matched play and your opponent can deny it. Trucks are a horrible answer btw, you pay over 100 points and if your assaulting then the autocanon is hitting on 5's.
Acolytes are great.You under estimate thier heavy weapons. They cost in the ball park of lascannons (a heavy weapon, that can be taken by 2 guard troops 30 points total, or a space marine for 25 points ~38) and do the same thing, but are subject to might from beyond and primus buff they can make them 3 attacks 2+ reroll 1's STR 9 -4ap 2DMG or Str 9 AP -3 2.77 DMG. Even with out it they compete pretty well against a lascannon at 2 attacks STR 8 good rend multi damage.
No I don't underestimate them actually. You are overestimating them. They don't cost the callpark of a guard lascanon mate, a guard HWT with lascanon is 24 ppm, you pay that JUST FOR THE WEAPON. The mining heavy weapons also are not a las canon equivalent, like not even close. They do far less damage, are weaker, and have a 1" range as opposed to 48" range. But hey look, rather then analyzsing their cost honestly, you just added in the buff from a primus, oh and look might from beyond? I thought we were using mass hypnosis, well I guess we need to pay for another caster, thats only 3 characters so far just to make one unit function. BTW saying it is comparable doesn't make it true, less range, less strength, less damage but more cost. In your world an over cost Ford Focus is somhow comparable to the Mustang on the same lot. I mean they are both cars...
On a side note i found out why you'd use the drill over the clippers today, and that's against invuln saves. 4+ and 5+ invulns the drilll starts to win out as the AP is the same, but the drill does more damage.
Which would be fine if they were priced fairly since 99% of the things I want to drill don't even have an invuln
Abberants are really good at smashing big stuff like land raiders, but acolytes can do this too with weapons for the similar cost, but then also stay decent at taking out squads of models. Where as once the big threat is gone, or if thier is no big threat you wonder why the abberants are on the table. Also for similar points you've got 8 wounds at T5 5+ save. Just feels kinda poor in a take all comers kind of list.
On this I aggree, I got excited for abberants until I realized a patriarch is in the same ballpark for cost, that said the hammers are our only source for s10 with consistent damage
Neophtyes are great i agree. If you do the math las cannons are better than mining lasers for the points FYI. in fact all of our mining weapons are kind of meh. Today shotgun neophytes were my MVP's they did work taking out 2 tack squads and almsot taking out a land speeder in single turn. Those guys are nuts.
Love genestealers, but acolyte feel abit better. the T4 and 5+ invuln aren't really worth it as you can mitigate over watch shooting via hypnosis or surrogate charge from our vehicles (either trucks or grinders from GSC or our AM chimeras and torax, or even scount sentials turn 1). From here the T4 is about going into other turns, but as you can assign your attacks you can hold enemy units hostage to protect you from enemy shooting, by surrounding a dreadnaught with genestealers, but alocoated most of your attacks into another unit so you spare the dreadnaught until your opponents turn. More over our ambush units make up thier points the turn they come onto the table. Acolyte can kill way above thier points cost the turn they hit the table.
But how? I can seemlessly add in a detachment of tyranids and suddenly I get genestealers for 12 ppm, thats only 1ppm more then an acolyte. Btw you have bragged about the iconward and suggested it was an auto take despite it being worse then last edition just because of the 6+++ yet here you suggest the 5++ GS save is not worth it. Makes zero sense, higher toughness and a guaranteed save is better. Acolytes can be punched to death easily by guardsmen with the beyonette order for Christ sake, ;et alone anything else in the game that is s4.
Scions are pretty good and do a similar role, but you'll get more out of acolytes that ambush on a 5+ it's more a risk play as i say above you'll only get a about 50% of the time, but when you do the pay off is just so much more. Acolyte get 2 rending attacks + 1 attack on str 4, and reroll 1's. Add in buffs which both can get, and acolyte definitly come out on top for most possible damage out put. Again here i think your look at that 4+ save and thinking that's where it's at, but the point of a cult ambush is that one good charge that more than pays for itself, and anything extra is gravy.
I'll chalk this up to a lack of experience with guard, I have 20k points of guard and about 120 scions. They conveniently got insane this edition (nerf bat incoming) and your wrong here. That randomness of cult ambush compared to a 100% guarantee on deployment with better armor and weapons makes this silly to even argue.
GodDamUser wrote:I think a big thing with GSC is that in this Index is, it is designed to utilise Guard along side it.
It really depends as i've been saying Trucks are amazing!!! like all star units in the book . They kill other armor great with demo charges, and out dakka even a guard chimera with buffs in most situations against most targets. They are also wicked fast, and can take objectives on the map no problem. The rugged construction lets them stay around longer than a chimera s well. I think if you want to do mono GSC you need trucks in your list. In the game i played today my opponent with lots of melta and lasguns struggle to take out a truck per turn (from turn 2 on). While the trucks did great work with the demo charges just devastating enemy units. The amount of shooting these things put out per turn is crazy when matched with just how tough they are to take out.
How do you figure T6 4+ save is hard to take out? The chimera has a better save, higher toughness and it can use dual HF's for auto hits. The truck comes to 119 with demos and requires a squad in it to fire at point blank. If your assaulting to soak OW your not shooting the thing. Close combat also hurts our things you know. If it gets locked then it needs to withdraw, at which point nothing including passengers gets to fire. I think the Goliath is OK but not amazing. Keep it cheaper without demos and put 2 mining lasers and 2 GL in the back in cover and just fire without moving if you can.
I also ahve gained respect for the rock grinder as a nice acolyte transport, with the flamer. It over watches okay, and keep them safe, and lets you bring a hero like a magus to pocket buff said acolytes.
Other than that i'd say a lot of the units are paying a tax to cult ambush, but this tax is worth it. Nids are pretty bad at ambushing out side of lictors (i believe, which every one goes after characters, but that is also easily countered as your opponent will see it coming). Most of thier units have a tough time ambushing and then charging. You have to think tyranids need to bring a swarmlord who also needs a trygon on top of the unit of genestealers and brood lord to do what we can do with just a patriarch and the genestealers for half the investment. Also in this nid example you have to dazzy trains some of the genestealers back to the brood lord to keep thier +1 to hit buff, and the brood lord can't also charge with them on turn 1.
This is just wrong, we get taxed on every unit having cult ambush, yet only half can arrive using it. So really, we are paying twice for every unit that uses it. It's a horrible mechanic and frankly I wish we flat lost the ambush table and had models that were far less expensive. Not only that but your way off base on the Tyranids. A trygon gets you not only a unit of ambushers that can't fail a roll but also the fething trygon lol. And I have no idea why they would also need a broodlord and swarmy. Swarmy can simply double move himself and crash into their lines with the GS and that trygon. Your deperately reaching here if you are suggesting nids are worse then us. Nids are better at ambushing with rippers for Christy sake. The random table is garbage.
I think if you don't do trucks and grinders which are what we have that's good that isn't in ambush. Then ithink going AM to fill out your list is pretty good, and bring in 2 or 3 good ambush squads to support your AM force that is holding the table.
As for what to take in AM??? conscript wall with a gun line behind it, but you'll have a tough time making sure the table has hole in it that are 9" away from a enemy model where you can ambush onto the table. I like more aggressive models like the double flamer chimera where it can contest table space, and forces your enemy to deal with it instead of spreading out to try to prevent your ambushes. Scions are good, but redundant. There is only so much space 9" away from your enemy in some games, and it forces you to delay your army longer than you'd want.
Notable Am units: ( i haven't tried these so can be ignored abit)
Flamer Sentials (competes with scounts unit and stop enemy ambush units, none flamer options aren't worth the points due to heavy -1 to hit bring you to terrible 5+) (good counter charge unit)
Double flamer Chimera (similar to the truck, but need a turn to get into range. Force enemy to stay on thier side of the table. give you ambush space. Better than truck at anti infantry) (good counter charge unit)
Infantry platoons supported by officers (shoots holes into enemy lines to open up ambush space, and preasure the table)
Ratlling (preventing enemy ambush units, and keep you from getting zoned out from ambushes by scount units)
Sadly once you start taking guard you realize that they are just a better army so why not just play guard, it's the dame for tyranids. Thats why I'd rather try to make it work with GSC only units. I know it's duable but it is just So bland. You end up spamming neophytes with mining lasers. for example
10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML 10 neopytes with 2 GL and 2 ML
880
incredibly cheap for the body count and you would be hard pressed to find a better source of anti tank/MC in the book. Neophye mining lasers do it better then anything.
HAving faced anti ambush tactics. this why your whole army is ambush. IF your bring the trucks which are good with demo charges. You get way more dakka than you get out of a chimera for the point period. I don't know what your saying about can't shoot if your charging to soak over watch. your 6" away when you shoot then you charge after shooting, hitting on 5's is bad but if you need to move even a chimera to get your shot off you'll be in a similar situation.
a Lascannon heavy weapon team is 28 (20 for the gun, 2x5 points for the two dudes) points a rock cutter is 34 points for the dude and his weapon. Now doing some math here.
Rock cutter dude has 2 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's wounding a land raider on 4's 2 damage an attack -4 AP. this is an average expected damage of 1.66666 after armor. damage per points for this model would be .044
The las cannon is 1 heavy shot hitting on 4's with no native buffs str 9 so wounding a land raider on 5's with -3 AP and your damage roll should average out to be 3.5. So an average expected damage with this weapon is .777 damage per shot after armor saves. damage per point you get for this weapon team is .0322
So as we can see while it seems like your paying ALOT more for less you actually get more out of the cutters. about 36% more damage from the acolyte than you get from your guard unit. Note the las cannon gets worse if you move or if the land raider gets cover or pops smoke, but the rock cutter also has to land it's ambush. I've done the math on the units and point for point the damage you get out of acolytes in most situations are pretty good. Even if we look at buffs acolytes can get +1 to hit and +1str & +1 attack on top of what they get. the AM lascannon can only get reroll 1's to hit and to wound. So the acolytes can be buffed even harder than the guard. Though might from beyond as you say can be denied.
As far as scout screens go my shot gun squad can ambush that scout screen for half the price and kill the whole thing in one turn. Then on the next turn i can ambush. I know because this is part of what happened in my game last night. Screening units are important for balance. If i could just walk up and get free super killy ambushes with my acolytes it wouldn't be fair at all, but i can clean up screens. Where a lascannon gets worse if i'm standing in cover which thier is no real counter play against.
I picked this example because it's one you used so you can see that acolytes are worth a thing. Sure it's alot of points on a squishy model, but it's also a model that has the potential to stay off the table for up to 3 turns waiting for the right moment to kill double or triple it's points in a single turn. Are you garenteed to get this?? no that would be super broken, but is it underpower heck no?
I've played 8 games of newhammer now and i ahve to say every game has felt pretty even, and i never felt like i didn't really have a chance. This can be said for all 8th edition armies. I wouldn't sit here getting stuck trying to compare our army together because; 1. as some one who has done all the math our ambush units do ALOT of damage for the points, and 2. you simply can't compare units too well across factions just play it how it is, and no your not getting screwed like in 7th.
Edit: on toughness of things liek the truck the difference between T6 and T7 is negligible. Most weapons damage you on the same rolls. maybe krak launchers wound you abit better. 4+ is a better against grav than a 3+, which was also an important feature of my last game. Melta treats a chimera and a truck the same except trucks deal with it better via thier rugged construction save. same is true for las cannons as both get a 6+ against what ever they take (just the truck rolls more dice against the damage, while the chimera just gets one roll before the damage roll). So SO i'd say over all as weird as this might seem to you the truck and the chimera are at the same toughness against most attack save for maybe bolt guns or something where the better armor save actualy matters a little bit over the rugged construction bonus save.
mmimzie wrote: HAving faced anti ambush tactics. this why your whole army is ambush. IF your bring the trucks which are good with demo charges. You get way more dakka than you get out of a chimera for the point period. I don't know what your saying about can't shoot if your charging to soak over watch. your 6" away when you shoot then you charge after shooting, hitting on 5's is bad but if you need to move even a chimera to get your shot off you'll be in a similar situation.
a Lascannon heavy weapon team is 28 (20 for the gun, 2x5 points for the two dudes) points a rock cutter is 34 points for the dude and his weapon. Now doing some math here.
Rock cutter dude has 2 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's wounding a land raider on 4's 2 damage an attack -4 AP. this is an average expected damage of 1.66666 after armor. damage per points for this model would be .044
The las cannon is 1 heavy shot hitting on 4's with no native buffs str 9 so wounding a land raider on 5's with -3 AP and your damage roll should average out to be 3.5. So an average expected damage with this weapon is .777 damage per shot after armor saves. damage per point you get for this weapon team is .0322
So as we can see while it seems like your paying ALOT more for less you actually get more out of the cutters. about 36% more damage from the acolyte than you get from your guard unit. Note the las cannon gets worse if you move or if the land raider gets cover or pops smoke, but the rock cutter also has to land it's ambush. I've done the math on the units and point for point the damage you get out of acolytes in most situations are pretty good. Even if we look at buffs acolytes can get +1 to hit and +1str & +1 attack on top of what they get. the AM lascannon can only get reroll 1's to hit and to wound. So the acolytes can be buffed even harder than the guard. Though might from beyond as you say can be denied.
As far as scout screens go my shot gun squad can ambush that scout screen for half the price and kill the whole thing in one turn. Then on the next turn i can ambush. I know because this is part of what happened in my game last night. Screening units are important for balance. If i could just walk up and get free super killy ambushes with my acolytes it wouldn't be fair at all, but i can clean up screens. Where a lascannon gets worse if i'm standing in cover which thier is no real counter play against.
I picked this example because it's one you used so you can see that acolytes are worth a thing. Sure it's alot of points on a squishy model, but it's also a model that has the potential to stay off the table for up to 3 turns waiting for the right moment to kill double or triple it's points in a single turn. Are you garenteed to get this?? no that would be super broken, but is it underpower heck no?
Your wrong about a lot of things in there. A HWT is not 28, the model is 4 pts plus the gun. A las canon is 20.
As for the trucks, again check your math. truck 66pts, twin AC +33, heavy stubber +8, demo cache +12. Your paying way too much for that garbage. Good luck getting to within 6" and having them remove models from the back so you still have a short charge after apparently great shooting? Or we can get a chimera with +1 toughness and +1 save with 2 HF for cheaper, it can move and advance while auto hitting. But even then, IMO paying over 100pts for a transport just to soak overwatch IF it makes combat seems a bit steap to me. EDIT wow those books get worse, a HF in the guard book is 17pts, in ours its 19 pts. Same Chimera guard one is 4ppm cheaper... Anyone suggesting we take these books as gospel needs to thin kagain, they were horridly edited for costs.
In regards to that horrible math on a land raider, what on earth are you reading? A las canon wounds a land raider on a 3+ dude. The rock cutter blows because you have to actually get to combat before you ever get to attempt to damage your target. Shooting a mining laser is inherently better then combat for the fact that it has 24x the range of your melee PLUS it wounds more often, is cheaper AND does more damage per shot. 11+23=34 as opposed to 5+14=19 you nearly get two mining lasers for every RC. 5 Acolytes with 2 RC= 101pts. 10 neophyes with 2 ML=78pts. I get 8 ablative wounds rather then 3. I get to hide in cover and I don't need to whether over watch in order to strike with my 1" range weapon. It isn't even a debate. It scales even worse. The neophytes never need to ambush either, so it's more reliable, more durable, and cheaper.
Let me get this straight BTW, you expect us to read your anecdotal evidence about ambushing a squad of chaf scouts with chaf neophytes and ignoring the fact that you need to roll above average in order to get a few bolter shots. Let's examine this more closely. You have to waste an ambush slot on shotgun scrubs, then you have to either use a primus for a reroll or burn a critical command point in order to get a 5 or a 6 OR you are just winging it in which case this is not a viable strategy. If you get a 5 you still need to advance above average again ie 4" in order to get into the strength 4 band, so what? another command point? So how many characters and or CP's aer we shredding through at this point? Then the math doesn't even help you out much once we get there, each guy hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+ and the scouts get a 4+ outside cover, in cover or with camo and your wasting your time. So 10 shot guns only gets you 20*.5*.5*.5 for 2.5 dead scouts. Meanwhile you could have used the auto guns and rapid fired twice on a 5 for 40*.5*.33*.5 for 3.33 dead scouts. Shot guns and auto guns both wound speeders on a 5+ making it even worse for shot guns. Shotguns are fun but actually suck very badly next to autoguns and las guns due to their lack of range. It's way better off to use autoguns and mining lasers and just blow them away since your effective from pretty much any result on the table, or you simply deploy.
Also you should stop downplaying other armies while assuming every GSC buff. Yarrick is a fething steal and he lets you reroll ALL misses plus you can dish reroll 1's orders on AT weapons. Put him near several HWT's and they kill any big thing much better then anything in our army. No need to move with a 48" range either.
I've played 8 games of newhammer now and i have to say every game has felt pretty even, and i never felt like i didn't really have a chance. This can be said for all 8th edition armies. I wouldn't sit here getting stuck trying to compare our army together because; 1. as some one who has done all the math our ambush units do ALOT of damage for the points, and 2. you simply can't compare units too well across factions just play it how it is, and no your not getting screwed like in 7th.
So we are supposed to trust you in regard to crunching the numbers and finding out whats most efficient between factions for AT weapons but yet in the same breath we are not supposed to compare numbers across factions because it's not possible? This statement doesn't belong in the tactics forum, either make points based on solid data and accurate math or don't bother. Anecdotal evidence is fun but worthless ITT. Feel free to share it, as I enjoy reading it but don't expect us to take it as gospel.
I want to reiterate that I don't think the army is bad, but it's very annoying that the number of units that work decently fit on one hand. I am sure someone out there wants to field 200 neophytes but I am not one of them. Just for LAWLS 200 neophytes in 10 man squads with 2 mining lasers a piece is only 1560 pts... 40 mining lasers and 160 las guns. add a pair of patriarchs and a pair of magi and you can even spam smite as well while being fearless. Tank shock doesn't exist anymore so simply swamp the table and out number every objective. See, playable but boring.
Thanks for the catch on me saying it wounds on 5's It was a typo, but the math was done on it hitting on 3's i just re did the math with a good old fashion calculator to make sure.
Though all the numbers that i gave as a result were not typo'd and the acolytes do more damage per points for thier upgrade.
You aren't required to take my word for it, but you'll notice quickly the lack of difference between T7 and T6, and you'll notice that against most weapons that will be shooting your trucks and chimeras will have effectively the same exact save with rugged construction.
acioytes vs neophtyes again the whole point of them is that money ambush where thier higher value damage can shine from the shadows. I know your seeing toughness and wounds as a thing, but wait till you see orc green tides... that big neophytes list wont stand a snow balls chances. Even if they were guard they'd be just as screwed, but these are things you'll have to experience on the table top.
I think you should definitely formulate your own opinions/ I'm just telling you what i've experienced, and ahve realized from abit of math hammer in my down time. If that doesn't satify you, then find the answers on your own.
Yeah, our group has collectively agreed with the naysayers. I have 100 acolytes that I converted from ork models. They're now turning into Kommandoes. They get twice the attacks for near 2/3 the points and are more likely to first turn assault where you want, eat your heart our acolytes.
I actually tend to agree with people that say neophytes in rock grinders is the best way to go. I think it is too. I also think that's silly that the army has to entirely ignore it's base rule.
I just think it's good for the people arguing that rock grinder neophyte squads are good to understand. Yes that may be the best combination, but a lot of us got into the army because we loved the unique play style which was basically removed. Rock Grinder neophytes driving around will probably be decent, but shooty troops in open topped transports is going to be very over done this addition and it's a shame that such a fun unique play style got removed.
So with all that being said. Let's try to move on. This is a tactics thread. So please try to come up with tactics that can do the best with what you can and try to keep the mourning period to a minimum. I probably won't be commenting on this thread much more (unless the codex fixes things) but to those staying with the army, good luck.
Like I said earlier, the response to every issue with GSC is "but with command rerolls, and multiple psychic powers, and hero buffs, X isn't as much of an issue." If every unit requires all of those things to be effective that's not good.
Looking at things neophytes in goliaths and puretrains are the only real way to go. Now I'm working on what to do with the the 1400 pts in my army that weren't those.
So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War Convo list just to see how our previous lists fared in 8th. So neither of us had currently optimized lists, he had 6 grav servitors, a bunch of skitarii rangers, Cawl, 2 shooty Kastelans, 1 Dragoon, 1 Onager, and a Knight Crusader with Dakka/BC. I had a GSC Brigade detachment with at least 1 of pretty much everything in the codex.
It was not a pretty picture. I got second turn (obviously) and several of the units I had to start on the board just got wiped by shooting. On my turn, I got almost perfect Cult Ambush rolls - 6s for the Patriarch and his 15 Purestrains, 5 claw metamorphs, Aberrants and Iconward, and a unit of Acolytes with 2 heavy weapons. The Primus was the only one who rolled poorly ending up with a 2, but he still managed to get into a spot to try a 9" charge against an onager. all 3 Neophyte squads got 3s and 4s, but were still well within shooting range.
aaaaand I did nothing. Iconward, Aberrants, Metamorphs, and the 2 rock saw squad of acolytes did a grand total of 3 wounds to 1 Kastelan, Patriarch and Genestealers tried multi-charging Cawl and a squad of servitors and ate 8 wounds in overwatch thanks to rerolling hit rolls, then managed to kill 1 servitor and take Cawl down to 2 wounds (which he promptly just regenned). Primus made the charge but acolytes didn't, and the acolytes took several casualties to overwatch and then fled off the board from morale.
The next turn I was down to approximately 1/4 of my army, losing all the units I had previously charged into melee thanks to withdrawing and then shooting with the units I'd been stretched too thin to charge. Unsurprisingly, by turn 4 I was tabled.
This list is obviously not going to work - if I lose that badly with Cult rolls that incredibly good, I'll need to rework more than just my tactics. So, a few ideas:
1) Let's bring in some Brood Brothers. I need to be able to comfortably Ambush everyone I'd want to ambush, and cult Leman Russes suuuuuuck. Thankfullly, I also have guard, and double thankfully, I am something of a collector so I own 6 OOP Vostroyan Mortar teams, 3 Lascannon teams, and many heavy bolter teams. That and a company commander buys you a gumball (and free license to cult ambush everyone I want.) I'll throw a manticore in there too because it's cheap and was AMAZING in every guard game I've tried.
2) I think I need to put some more eggs in the basket. Instead of 4 squads of 5 Acolytes that die to a stiff breeze and risk it on a single CA roll, maybe 1 unit of 20 acolytes who can pair up with a Primus for a reroll. (Again, remember, I'm not trying to win tournaments here, just make gsc more playable).
2) Aberrants, Russes and Metamorphs are unspeakably bad. Cutting all of them in favor of more reliable shooty neophyte squads. I've got 2 autogun/GL/Mining laser squads and 2 shotgun/Flamer squads.
3) Rockgrinder and Scout Sentinel fared OK, and I think deserve a second chance. I'll stick a min acolyte squad with some demo charges in the rockgrinder mostly to man the demo cache and maybe pop out and melee something.
4) I think I'll try Chimera assaulting the Patriarch and his brood. They're just too valuable to risk on a single roll of the cult ambush dice. Sure, we pay an absurd tax for cult ambush, but we do have one thing Tyranid codex GS don't have: A transport! I hope this works, because it'd be one hell of an excuse for a combat limo conversion. (I'm thinking Taurox/Rhino Primaris kitbash maybe...)
Thoughts on any of these ideas? Might make GSC better/usable, if not tournament level competitive? Still crap?
the_scotsman wrote: So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War Convo list just to see how our previous lists fared in 8th. So neither of us had currently optimized lists, he had 6 grav servitors, a bunch of skitarii rangers, Cawl, 2 shooty Kastelans, 1 Dragoon, 1 Onager, and a Knight Crusader with Dakka/BC. I had a GSC Brigade detachment with at least 1 of pretty much everything in the codex.
It was not a pretty picture. I got second turn (obviously) and several of the units I had to start on the board just got wiped by shooting. On my turn, I got almost perfect Cult Ambush rolls - 6s for the Patriarch and his 15 Purestrains, 5 claw metamorphs, Aberrants and Iconward, and a unit of Acolytes with 2 heavy weapons. The Primus was the only one who rolled poorly ending up with a 2, but he still managed to get into a spot to try a 9" charge against an onager. all 3 Neophyte squads got 3s and 4s, but were still well within shooting range.
aaaaand I did nothing. Iconward, Aberrants, Metamorphs, and the 2 rock saw squad of acolytes did a grand total of 3 wounds to 1 Kastelan, Patriarch and Genestealers tried multi-charging Cawl and a squad of servitors and ate 8 wounds in overwatch thanks to rerolling hit rolls, then managed to kill 1 servitor and take Cawl down to 2 wounds (which he promptly just regenned). Primus made the charge but acolytes didn't, and the acolytes took several casualties to overwatch and then fled off the board from morale.
The next turn I was down to approximately 1/4 of my army, losing all the units I had previously charged into melee thanks to withdrawing and then shooting with the units I'd been stretched too thin to charge. Unsurprisingly, by turn 4 I was tabled.
This list is obviously not going to work - if I lose that badly with Cult rolls that incredibly good, I'll need to rework more than just my tactics. So, a few ideas:
1) Let's bring in some Brood Brothers. I need to be able to comfortably Ambush everyone I'd want to ambush, and cult Leman Russes suuuuuuck. Thankfullly, I also have guard, and double thankfully, I am something of a collector so I own 6 OOP Vostroyan Mortar teams, 3 Lascannon teams, and many heavy bolter teams. That and a company commander buys you a gumball (and free license to cult ambush everyone I want.) I'll throw a manticore in there too because it's cheap and was AMAZING in every guard game I've tried.
2) I think I need to put some more eggs in the basket. Instead of 4 squads of 5 Acolytes that die to a stiff breeze and risk it on a single CA roll, maybe 1 unit of 20 acolytes who can pair up with a Primus for a reroll. (Again, remember, I'm not trying to win tournaments here, just make gsc more playable).
2) Aberrants, Russes and Metamorphs are unspeakably bad. Cutting all of them in favor of more reliable shooty neophyte squads. I've got 2 autogun/GL/Mining laser squads and 2 shotgun/Flamer squads.
3) Rockgrinder and Scout Sentinel fared OK, and I think deserve a second chance. I'll stick a min acolyte squad with some demo charges in the rockgrinder mostly to man the demo cache and maybe pop out and melee something.
4) I think I'll try Chimera assaulting the Patriarch and his brood. They're just too valuable to risk on a single roll of the cult ambush dice. Sure, we pay an absurd tax for cult ambush, but we do have one thing Tyranid codex GS don't have: A transport! I hope this works, because it'd be one hell of an excuse for a combat limo conversion. (I'm thinking Taurox/Rhino Primaris kitbash maybe...)
Thoughts on any of these ideas? Might make GSC better/usable, if not tournament level competitive? Still crap?
It is pretty bad how high risk with no reward our stuff is, which is odd because looking at the other armies (including ad mech which I also collect) the balance is actually pretty good, overall i think they did a great job with 8th. Then there's GSC...which for some reason is a total turd.
I'm thinking of trying the rockgrinders for acolytes too, because right now even my 8 man squads aren't worth anything, 5 in a rock grinder might be able to do something.
So we're basically a mechanized army now, best to forget about cult ambush, and forget about close combat. Instead roll around with neophytes in trucks and min acolytes in rock grinders, leave everything else at home.
the_scotsman wrote: So, I'm kind of in a "let's see how to make this work" spot with my GSC. Yesterday, I played a 100PL game against a friend's previously Admech War
GSC are very poorly balanced by power level. Make a PL genestealer cult army, and convert it to regular points and any other army will have about 25-40% more points than you at the same Power level. As a heads up. What's more interesting admech PL wise are actually kind of the opposite where they tend to get about 10-20% more points per power level than most other armies.
IF you don't believe me the miniwargaming people i think said as much today,
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet (and if someone has please forgive me), but it looks like units come with their cult icons now as they have no point cost to equip. This means Acolytes, Neophytes, and Metamorphs all have the ability to reroll hit-rolls of 1 in melee regardless of squad size and since wounds are allocated by controlling player they basically keep the ability until wiped out.
Anyway, I've only managed to get three games in with the army so far and two of them were only 1000 points, so take the following opinions with a grain of salt:
Iconward: I actually really like these, being a support HQ that can actually fight if needed. In my second game a pair of them shepherded my footslogging Neophyte and Acolyte squads around and bailed the former out when they got charged by assault marine squad via Heroic Intervention. The 6+ isn't something to be relied upon of course, but it does help a little bit against mortal wounds where a 6+ is better than no save at all. The moral reroll bubble in contrast was far more valuable, saving several Neophytes and Acolytes from bad moral rolls across the second and third games.
Acolytes: Based on the handful of games I've played, I don't think they are as bad as they have been decried but they aren't something one wants to spam excessively either. Between their innate -1 rending claws and all of their special weaponry either doing multiple wounds or having some ability that only works against multi-wound models, they are now tailored for cracking armor rather than infantry blending. I've been experimenting with a 5-strong squad with 2x Demolition Charges for 75 points (5 points cheaper than before). They basically pop out of a transport, toss charges, and then assault the target to finish it off if it survives. I've also gotten some work out of 10-strong units in the 2nd and 3rd games, though they were screened by Neophyte squads and were mostly used to wreck vehicles (though they did end up fighting some Nurglings in the last game - one time knives were more useful than claws).
Neophytes: As others have said, these are fairly solid grunts. I think they will cover the role of general purpose infantry, but they will still want some Acolytes sprinkled in to deal with heavier vehicles and tougher infantry that bounce autogun shots. Also wasn't terribly impressed with truck-mounted squads, they didn't really accomplish much compared to Acolyte squads using the same transport (being able to pop out and unstick the truck from melee tie-up squads is helpful). That said, the Neophytes do make excellent ambushers, since the 9'' away restriction puts them well within double-tap range for their autoguns and the S8 band with Seismic Cannons if taken. Plus, the only result on the ambush table they don't care for is a flat 1 (and even then, if they come on from a side edge they should still be able to get some shots).
Speaking of Cult Ambush, the biggest hurdle has been trying to use it to pull off a devastating first turn melee alpha strike like in 7th (I tried in my first game with predicable results). The problem basically boils down to the ability to back out of assault, making any successful 1st turn charge a piece trade at best. It still has its uses in getting melee units into a forward position where they can charge without having been shot at all game, but I think it is better to wait until the bulk of the army lines have met rather than spending ambushers on early aggression. The main benefit to this approach is that you can pin the enemy between multiple fronts and ideally be able to completely wrap around a victim to prevent it from escaping (had this happen in my second and third games - ambushing Acolytes charged into combats involving tied-up Neophytes, sandwiched the opposing models between the two squads and wiped them out).
The biggest issue I see is that GSO was designed to be the most glass cannon of glass cannons, more so than even eldar. The entirety of their survivability was in return to shadows and cult ambush. Plus we don't even have speed to make up for that with movement 6 on everything except pure-strains.
So with our weakness being no staying power, i'm thinking the best bet would be ally in some large tough tyranid units, things that are scary enough to make the enemy want to shoot at them, and beefy enough to not die the moment something looks at them. Bullet sponges to take heat off our paper dudes.
I mentioned this in another thread I created but thought it warranted being here too as we try to find some way to make up for the suck that is the current GSC.
My prime candidates are the good old distractionfex, which got so much better this edition, Haruspeex, Trygon, or Tyrannofex.
Currently i'm leaning towards 500 point of carnifex led by old one eye.
I'm thinking of going the opposite way from Nids and taking a Shadowsword or a Baneblade to provide some heavy hitting for my Cult. Coupled with a couple of Punishers and maybe some Wyverns/ Basilisks supported by some suborned Infantry squads.
When the index releases at the weekend I will be considering some Malcadors (especially the Infernus) and maybe some Rapier or mortar batteries.
While the enemy is dealing with that lot I hope to jump in their face with some Acolytes and Purestrains.
Loopstah wrote: I'm thinking of going the opposite way from Nids and taking a Shadowsword or a Baneblade to provide some heavy hitting for my Cult. Coupled with a couple of Punishers and maybe some Wyverns/ Basilisks supported by some suborned Infantry squads.
When the index releases at the weekend I will be considering some Malcadors (especially the Infernus) and maybe some Rapier or mortar batteries.
While the enemy is dealing with that lot I hope to jump in their face with some Acolytes and Purestrains.
basically that's my plan as well, but I will be taking 3 Vandettas, and will be looking at maybe some Wyverns
Danny slag wrote: The biggest issue I see is that GSO was designed to be the most glass cannon of glass cannons, more so than even eldar. The entirety of their survivability was in return to shadows and cult ambush. Plus we don't even have speed to make up for that with movement 6 on everything except pure-strains.
In 7th I'd agree, but we did actually gain a fair amount of survivability with the changes wrought by 8th edition. Cover is now a 4+ for most of our units rather than a 5+ and very few anti-infantry weapons actually ignore our save now. We also are one of a handful of factions that has near universal access to a feel no pain equivalent for negating mortal wounds, even if it is only a 6+.
Also for what it is worth, a 6'' move actually is slightly above average now, as most footslogging infantry dropped to a mere 5'' for movement (main exceptions are Eldar, Marines, and 'nids). I do think Return to Shadows will make a comeback in the codex whenever it ends up being released, either as an army specific stratagem or as a command benefit for a revised Cult Uprising detachment (remember, most of the perks for Cult Ambush in 7th came from the Uprising detachment - most of the army couldn't even use Cult Ambush on the first turn without it).
In any event, I had another game with the index tonight against Grey Knights and it ended in a draw. He got First Blood, Line Breaker, and 2 Objectives while I had Slay the Warlord (blew up Voldus with Demo Charges ), Linebreaker, and 2 Objectives. I think I probably would have won outright had I held back my main melee Acolyte blob instead of going for an alpha on one of his isolated squads (old habits die hard), but it was a very close game overall and we were both pretty tattered by the end. I really do like the Iconwards though, I only lost 1 model to moral all game thanks to the reroll ability.
I'm getting on the GSC train late in the game (well early for 8th), and they are obviously lacking in terms of staying power without access to RTTS. Hopefully more faction specific bonuses will come out in the near future to make up for what was lost across the board, but I'm looking forward to getting everything built and put on the table.
Some things I'd like to see FAQ'd would be the Saw/Crusher points or bonus added to Saw and if they are going to charge points for taking a Cult Icon.
I'm on the fence with Demo Charges, as it is only a one use weapon unless you take a Truck along (and spend more points). I suppose smaller groups of Acolytes will be wiped out after the first assault anyway, but you can't start in range to use it and I don't expect to go first very often.
Currently I have two boxes of Neophytes and two boxes of Acolytes, with the Deathwatch Overkill box on the way to add more bodies and HQs. Built up one squad of Neophytes with Shotguns and an Icon, with the other set running Autoguns and Seismic Cannons since Mining Lasers are included with Overkill. I haven't had this much fun painting an army since I started, so I'm looking forward to the rest. May end up sticking the Autoguns in a Truck, with Shotguns ambushing and hoping for the best.
Acolytes are gonna start off in two ten man units with support from HQ's, with sets of Rock Drills in one squad and Rock Crushers in the other. I'm kind of bummed that they share a box with the Metamorphs as we only get one of each special weapon, and the kit comes out to $40 alone... I see some more ebay shopping in my future for bits. They will be ambushing until I get a better feel for how the Trucks play.
The last purchase I need to make to get around 1000 points will be a box of Genestealers. This will set me up with around 50 models, and I think will serve as a good base (not too many choices) for starting a larger force.
Lots of great advice in this thread! I played my first game of 8th yesterday and went with using Cult Ambush on all my choppy units (Patriarch, Genestealers, Abberants etc) and despite rolling great on the chart I still failed all my charges and got blasted off the next turn lol.
So the general consensus is to squeeze in as many trucks (Goliaths and Rockgrinders) as possible and equip them with Demolition Caches? I was thinking of mounting the Purestrains in Goliaths, running the Patriarch behind and going for a turn 2 charge.
I know people have said Neophytes can be good in the shadows because you can drop them into shooting range, I imagine they would be good for objective play too, to drop them on objectives where needed.
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
the issue with a triple threat list, is that you can never take a decent amount of anything.
That being said they can work well, but with Tyranids buffs mainly being Hivefleet there isn't a lot of synergy between the two considering the overlap of models..
the only thing I would really take in a 3 way list from the Tyranids is a Spearhead with OOE and 3+ Carnis
Bottle wrote: Lots of great advice in this thread! I played my first game of 8th yesterday and went with using Cult Ambush on all my choppy units (Patriarch, Genestealers, Abberants etc) and despite rolling great on the chart I still failed all my charges and got blasted off the next turn lol.
So the general consensus is to squeeze in as many trucks (Goliaths and Rockgrinders) as possible and equip them with Demolition Caches? I was thinking of mounting the Purestrains in Goliaths, running the Patriarch behind and going for a turn 2 charge.
I know people have said Neophytes can be good in the shadows because you can drop them into shooting range, I imagine they would be good for objective play too, to drop them on objectives where needed.
From my understanding you can ally in both AM and Nids into the same army (choose the "Tyranid" faction, and ignore the AM Keyword as stated in the Broodbrothers rules). What interesting combinations can you think of for a GSC + Nid + AM list?
Looking forward to hearing more
Just remember if you plan on ambushing anything the nids need to be in their own detachment.
I've also combined what was 3 units of 7 acolytes into 2 units of 10. They're still way overcosted, but I think with this edition and the inability to rts more bodies is important rather than more units.
Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Danny slag wrote: Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Rockcutter > Drill > Saw
Rockcutter is the best (also cheapest option), the drill is also good against vehicles and high wnd count models.. the Saw you never take as it is more expensive than the cutter and has basically the same stats without the special rule
Danny slag wrote: Thoughts on the heavy rock weapons for acolytes? I'm trying really hard to find a way these guys are useful over just taking more purestrain.
The weapons are really expensive on a squishy overocosted unit, but if i'm going to take acolytes i'm feeling like having an overcosted unit that does something nothing else in the army can vs an overcosted unit that really doesn't is better. Rock Drills are our only source of mortal wounds, which I heard from age of sigmar players end up being a lot more important than you'd think. I ordered bits to make 4 rock drill acolytes since all of mine were built bare bones, but wondering if anyone has tried the rock weapons in 8th.
Rockcutter > Drill > Saw
Rockcutter is the best (also cheapest option), the drill is also good against vehicles and high wnd count models.. the Saw you never take as it is more expensive than the cutter and has basically the same stats without the special rule
yeah that saw has to be some sort of typo, you're right there's no reason to take it.
i was debating the drill vs rock cutter myself. I honestly don't even really know if I came to a decent conclusion and could be totally wrong. But my thinking is that the drill is more universally useful. the cutter is only going to be useful on things that have less than 6 wounds. and even then it really is only likely on models with less than 4. So it'd be great against 2-3 wound models, but against anything larger which most monsters and vehicles have 8+, it's special ability won't work until they've been beaten up quite a bit already. A drill on the other hand will almost always do an extra wound, mortal so it doesn't allowsaves, and is useful no matter how many wounds a model has over 1.
Spearhead Detahcment Iconward 3x Rockgrinder (Incinerator, and Demo Cache)
Air Wing Detachment 3x Vandetta
So the idea is Vandetta's obvious long range support, most likely in hover mode.. Charge across the board with the Rockgrinders Pop up with Genestealers (probably Turn 2)
The problem I see with loading up Goliaths is that you've already paid more per model for Ambush and their +4 BS limits the effectiveness of the Heavy Weapons (on Rockgrinder) firing. You also have to disembark before it moves again, so you may not always have a good choice available for Turn 2 charges. I do like that you can hold off on Ambushing to link up with the Trucks though.
I'm still ordering two Trucks for a bit more variety, but I think they will be better suited for moving my Neophytes. I'm going to try the Demo Charges out to see how well they work as well, but I still have a few more models to build (and a bunch more to paint)
So the FAQ is here. Heavy Rock Cutter (only) gets -1 to hit, so it's cost makes a little more sense. Pure strains are now 10 points (!!!) and their extra Talons are free (in line with Hive Fleet Genestealers).
So.. 100 neophytes and 100 genestealers will be the new list?
I'm sure they just meant to make it so that they're 12 points like Tyranid Genestealers....but forgot that rending claws are free for GSC
In any case, even at 12 ppm, they'd be a steal and I'd be down for 60 of them. At 10 ppm....that's just dirty. (Am still going to play 60 of them, but only in my tournament list)
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be honest, this does to me mean that a pure GSC detachment is stronger than a Nids detachment with GSC support because now there are no tax units. GSC assaulty goodness and AM gun line support....it's going to be super deadly. Just watch the GT scene (not for me this year sadly, but someone's going to do it)
vyse.04 wrote: The problem I see with loading up Goliaths is that you've already paid more per model for Ambush and their +4 BS limits the effectiveness of the Heavy Weapons (on Rockgrinder) firing. You also have to disembark before it moves again, so you may not always have a good choice available for Turn 2 charges. I do like that you can hold off on Ambushing to link up with the Trucks though.
The nice thing about the Trucks is that they are flexible. If you desire more ambushes they act as a descent drop so more of the army can go into ambush while if you are opposing a foe where ambush isn't as likely to be useful you can simply deploy units in the Trucks and thereby increase the likelihood of going first (happened in my last game incidentally, I had 13 units and deploying in Trucks brought my deployment count down to 8 units).
I'm still ordering two Trucks for a bit more variety, but I think they will be better suited for moving my Neophytes. I'm going to try the Demo Charges out to see how well they work as well, but I still have a few more models to build (and a bunch more to paint)
So far I've had better luck with 10-strong Acolytes riding around in the trucks while Neophytes ambush. Neophytes are perfectly happy to pop up in a ruin or industrial scaffolding and camp for the rest of the game, while Acolytes need mobility and the Trucks in turn need some defense against melee threats since apart from the Rockgrinder they are horrible at it.
I do really like the demo charges, they are excellent for knocking wounds off big things so you can finish them in melee with Rending Claws. Another reason why I like the Acolytes in Goliaths, the trucks get them into throwing range quickly and they don't have to leave the relative safety of the truck and risk retaliation if they kill the target outright (and if they fail to kill the target with demo charges, they can get out and charge next turn).
So I've moved over a bit from the Tyranids tactica, as although I have a detachment that has all faction keywords "Tyranid", it's actually a GSC Detachment (which is the elites one again? I forget) plus an Imperial Guard Detachment
TLDR: I have a ton of Genestealers that want to eat stuff, so I brought some guns to clear out the chaff units and let them get to the meaty stuff on turn 1
I also am planning on making it as Tyranid as possible in flavor with the GSC. Have a ton of Zoats to use as the conscript and commissar, and as sentries for the Searchlights. They'll also man the earthshakers (I'm using the variant that doesn't need a gunner but it totally adds to the flavor). And I'm going to have a 2nd edition zoanthrope sort of be the overlord chilling on the back roof of each Taurox prime. I think it'll really feel like the guard are being subjugated and forced to help the Tyranids, which I think is about as fluffy as you could make such a list.
Elite one is the Vanguard detachment if I remember correctly.
As said in the Tyranid thread, the list looks quite nasty and your thematic modeling ideas sound superb. My only real concern tactically with the list is that the 'stealers are going to be very vulnerable to getting isolated with most of the army being a dedicated gunline. Once their alpha strike is done they will probably be wiped out, so the question is if they can do enough damage so the rest of the list can finish up.
Very quick question but if I am lookin to get into GSC whats my best options for starting up...
I was thinking of getting the Deathwatch Overkill box and addtionally the imperial guard starter with GSC conversion bits.... is this just a waste of money?
any brief suggestions based on whats working so far tactics wise?
Deathwatch Overkill is an excellent place to start with just shy of 750 points worth of models in it, and the game itself is actually pretty fun too if you elect to keep the Deathwatch half of it. I've mostly been using the industrial side of the faction, so I'm not sure how to configure the brood brothers, but they do have some flexibility in that you can use them in-faction or as an allied AM detachment. You'll probably want to pick up a box of Genestealers too, as they received a huge buff in the recent FAQ/Errata and Overkill only comes with 2 individual 'stealers.
As for what works, it is hard to say as activity in here has dropped rather badly since 8th dropped. I've personally been going with a combined arms list with footslogging/ambushing Neophytes backed up with leader buff auras and Acolytes riding in Goliaths to provide counter-assault and anti-armor functions.
C0deb1ue wrote: Very quick question but if I am lookin to get into GSC whats my best options for starting up...
I was thinking of getting the Deathwatch Overkill box and addtionally the imperial guard starter with GSC conversion bits.... is this just a waste of money?
any brief suggestions based on whats working so far tactics wise?
Thanks
I think this is a good start. Imho the GSC is at the moment not really an army, which can fight on its own. It needs support from Tyranids or AM to be viable. However, this is no real wonder since they do not have a lot of GSC specific units and have to rely on their buddies to do some things.
Deathwatch overkill is amazing to get a lot of GSC models for cheap. And Astra Militarum is probably better as a support for them then Tyranids.
The Overkill Box is a great starting point, and from there you can pick up some more Neophytes/Acolytes/Genestealers. If you buy the other boxes before DW plan ahead, as you do not have any options for the loadouts. If you want some Neophytes with shotguns or special weapons on Acolytes, build them up from those respective boxes.
OK, I was noodling around over breakfast, and I had a weird thought...So I'll ask the experts.
Can I use Mind Control to eliminate Conscript spam? Conscript spam is only a problem because of the Commisar, so 24" Mind Control, and the Conscripts are filled with love for the four armed Emp, and Rapid Fire the Commisar, the closest unit?
Sorry, I'm still waiting for my Indexes to arrive.
Fragile wrote: Just fyi, Mind Control doesnt have to shoot the closest enemy. You can use the Lascannon to take out a tank for example.
True, I was just thinking that it'll have to be the closest tank to the commissar you're trying to shoot, since he is a character. But, technically it isnt in the shooting phase...
Fragile wrote: Just fyi, Mind Control doesnt have to shoot the closest enemy. You can use the Lascannon to take out a tank for example.
True, I was just thinking that it'll have to be the closest tank to the commissar you're trying to shoot, since he is a character. But, technically it isnt in the shooting phase...
Yeah they actually call this out in the FAQ pretty clearly. Psychic powers are free to target whomever they'd like, and by extension, our psychically piloted model can do so as well. Thankfully, IG has plenty of single model units that can more than sufficiently kill a commissar...to the point where I wonder if some of them aren't best just used killing the conscripts outright
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strat_N8 wrote: Elite one is the Vanguard detachment if I remember correctly.
As said in the Tyranid thread, the list looks quite nasty and your thematic modeling ideas sound superb. My only real concern tactically with the list is that the 'stealers are going to be very vulnerable to getting isolated with most of the army being a dedicated gunline. Once their alpha strike is done they will probably be wiped out, so the question is if they can do enough damage so the rest of the list can finish up.
Hopefully there is enough gunline to help them get to the good stuff when they come in. Also, I can have them come in piecemeal if I need to wait to clear out the chaff.
I've also substantially altered my list, replacing the Earthshaker batteries with Manticores and the Quad Mortar Batteries/Taurox Primes with Vultures and their godly twin punisher cannons. That kills a lot with adequate searchlight support. Sadly, the vulture has no care for the Searchlights. But that's fine. I still like them both quite a bit.
Played one game with them vs a Tau gunline. Went first. Didn't end well for the Tau
vyse.04 wrote: The Overkill Box is a great starting point, and from there you can pick up some more Neophytes/Acolytes/Genestealers. If you buy the other boxes before DW plan ahead, as you do not have any options for the loadouts. If you want some Neophytes with shotguns or special weapons on Acolytes, build them up from those respective boxes.
I'd suggest ebaying two sets of the overkill GSC. I made a full GSC army with that +genestealer box. The only thing to add to it now is some goliaths.
You can get creative and convert icons with toothpicks that have random bits glued to the ends, and for special weapons like drills, saws it's cheaper to buy those bits and hack them onto the overkill acolytes. The only other thing you'll need is some way to make unit leaders since it doesn't come with any, if you have any guard/ skitarii bits with pistols and melee weapons those fit on the overkill models also.
With a little kit bashing you can actually make a GSC army fairly cheaply.
Just a thought for GSC for 8th. If you wanted to have more options with neophytes you could run a detachment of astra militarum Elysian drop troops with GSC neophyte models. Deep striking without scatter more than 9 inches away feels very similar to cult ambush.
This would give you access to special weapon squads, veteran squads, IG infantry squads and orders, and heavy weapon squads. All popping up wherever you like - just like GSC should be
GodDamUser wrote:so much people playing proper gsc these days?
I haven't had a chance to play lately myself
I've been running them at our weekly gaming night at our local shop. Mine focus on the industrial side of the army, so thus far they have been run without allies. My last list was:
Battalion Detatchment: HQ: 1x Primus
HQ: 1x Iconward
ELITES: 4x Aberants with 2x Power Picks, 2x Power Hammers
ELITES: 4x Aberants with 2x Power Picks, 2x Power Hammers
ELITES: 4x Aberants with 2x Power Picks, 2x Power Hammers
TROOPS: 20x Neophytes with Power Pick, 2x Grenade Launchers, 2x Mining Lasers
TROOPS: 20x Neophytes with Power Pick, 2x Grenade Launchers, 2x Seismic Cannons
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with Bonesword, 2x Demolition Charges
DT: 1x Goliath Truck
DT: 1x Goliath Truck
HEAVY: 1x Goliath Rockgrinder with Heavy Mining Laser
HEAVY: 1x Goliath Rockgrinder with Heavy Mining Laser
We were trying out power levels and settled at a total of 75 points if I remember right (in normal points the list is just shy of 1500) with my opponent running a combination of AM and Primus Marines. Since it was using power points I tried out some configurations that I probably would not have used had points been involved (such as the Bonesword on the Acolyte leader). The match ended in a draw with fairly even casualties on both sides.
I'm actually liking the Aberrants. I initially was unsure of how well they would do since they lost their FNP, but they pulverized everything they came into contact with before getting cut down by opposing HQ models. The Seismic Cannons also did better than expected arriving out of Ambush, I might consider putting them in shotgun squads since both will want to get close to use their high strength profile and it adds two shotguns worth of fire at longer range.
Ferrus126 wrote:Is the Primus a valid HQ option for running GSC? Or is the Patriarch the only way to go?
I think the Patriarch is really nasty but if you compare that to a Primus with 7 extra Purestrain Genestealers I start to wonder.
any thoughts?
Currently I'm more fond of the Primus, but to be fair that is in part due to the semi-mechanized nature of a lot of my lists lately. Cult Demagogue works on every unit in the army (Rockgrinders and Neophytes especially appreciate it) while Brood Telepathy only applies to Purestrain Genestealers, and the Living Idol rule isn't quite as important when most units are riding in transports. Meticulous Planner in turn isn't quite as vital to the mechanized list either, but it does allow the Primus to reliably deploy where he is needed with his own meatshield or else deliver a larger melee squad where it is needed.
As I was running my genestealers as purestrains, I grabbed myself a deathwatch overkill box to make running them less loop-hole-ey.
What would you guys recommend running out of that box? I have 45 genestealers which I've been running with a patriarch in their own detachment for the time being, along with a bunch of big bugs (Swarmlord, old one eye, a couple of carnifex and a tyrannofex), and some artillery bugs (biovore and hive guard). I'm definately going to be running the primus, but what else is good?
C4790M wrote: As I was running my genestealers as purestrains, I grabbed myself a deathwatch overkill box to make running them less loop-hole-ey.
What would you guys recommend running out of that box? I have 45 genestealers which I've been running with a patriarch in their own detachment for the time being, along with a bunch of big bugs (Swarmlord, old one eye, a couple of carnifex and a tyrannofex), and some artillery bugs (biovore and hive guard). I'm definately going to be running the primus, but what else is good?
The neophytes are pretty good screening units. Think of them like Gants that can start in reserves. The acolytes are unfortunately like 50% of a Genestealer for like 90% of the cost, but that's not their fault. It's the Genestealers' fault.
The Magus is great. The more you look at the psychic powers from the GSC, the more you're going to fall in love with them. The range doesn't matter because they can just pop up anywhere, and the Magus being a character means that he has a TON of ablative wounds.
The neophytes are pretty good screening units. Think of them like Gants that can start in reserves.
The Grenade Launcher/Mining Laser combination in the Deathwatch Overkill box are actually pretty descent as a generalist unit that is quite comfortable sitting on objectives in cover (5+ armor = 4+ while in cover). They also benefit immensely from the force multiplying effects of the HQ options, with the Primus making them more competent in melee than most GEQs, Patriarch makes them immune to moral, Iconward adds a 6+ FNP and provides a reroll for moral if a Patriarch isn't around, and the Magnus allows them to deny enemy powers as though they were psykers themselves and provides psychic shenanigans.
The acolytes are unfortunately like 50% of a Genestealer for like 90% of the cost, but that's not their fault. It's the Genestealers' fault.
Well, more like the FAQ's fault. Before the cost reduction they felt fairly reasonable as cheaper Genestealers with access to additional anti-armor specific weaponry in the troops slot, whereas post FAQ they cost more than a base purestrain and simply can't compete. I still like them as Demolition Charge caddies though. 75 points isn't terrible for a pair of battle cannon shots followed up by 7 rending claw attacks.
The Magus is great. The more you look at the psychic powers from the GSC, the more you're going to fall in love with them. The range doesn't matter because they can just pop up anywhere, and the Magus being a character means that he has a TON of ablative wounds.
Agreed, the Magnus is pretty solid. Don't forget about Unquestioning Loyalty for a 4+ look out sir to just about any infantry model to soak wounds that bypass the Character targeting restrictions and the Spiritual Leader rule for the extra deny the witch attempts.
Apart from that, Aberrants are also pretty nice as armor crackers that are also fairly resilient against plasma and autocannon fire due to their bestial vigor ability. Bit on the expensive side though and will draw fire once people know what they can do in assault (they love catalyst if it can be spared).
The Purestrain Genestealer go back up to 15 points.
They started at 18, then 10, then 15.
I'm not sure what happened at that 10. It's the same cost that the tyranid version but maybe the cult ambush made them overpowered. The ammount of genestaler spam we where seing here is proof to that.
To me 15 seems a bit much, specially compared to the tyranid version but, of course, I'm not an impartial party.
I wish they had 4+ armor with their 5+ inv but as is with cult ambush they are worth 15 pts as mentioned not as auto win as the 10pts but we don't want auto win just good.
12 would've been perfect I felt. Honestly Genestealer spam was not auto win at the top levels, it lost hard to RavenSpam. But, that also took the nerf luckily. Here's a question: where do we go next? What're our most competitive units now? Rockgriders aren't terrible but are still pricey. Right now I want to do a three part list of Nids/GSC/Guard but I really can't figure out what the GSC does best. Russes are strictly inferior as they don't receive the IG buffs and the GSC buffs don't help them. Same thing with Neophytes, I feel like Elysians completely invalidate them. I *could* stick to Genestealers but that feels so much less efficient now. Could try to send two rockgrinders upfield with Guard and Nid fire support.
Yeah, I think they over did it... But I think the hidden strength of the GSC is the Psy powerz, so maybe a doting throng and Magus would be a decent Troop choice (and a HQ) if they have a Icon ward near, and set up in cover they could handle a Huge Alpha. And still do work if they don't get mauled.
Heck I am still temped to take GSC even thogh I have always been 100% Nids. Some of the units have Tyranid as a Keyword, so all I'd lose is Ambush. But I could get some cool Psycher trix. If I only got to Mind Control a Assassin, or Sniper into shooting a HQ Once it would be glorius.
I just signed up for this board because I've come back for the 8th edition. My favorite army is Blood Angels but I wanted to get something different to start this edition. I've always been into the "cultist" side of the game and was pleased to see that GSC are in the new (probably last couple of) edition.
For models on the board I plan to run two rock grinders with a load out of aberrants + icon in one and a group of acolytes in the other. I will also run 1-2 large neophyte squads.I will have a magus with these squads moving up to throw spells.
For ambush I plan to have a large group of GS with a primus. His reroll to land his ambush will help get that group into combat.
For my remaining ambush squads I may just do more GS, with the primarch. Either that or add some acolytes. I don't know how I feel about the acolytles/metamorphs on the ambush. I think with a good roll they would be great. Without the roll they'll be fodder.
I just signed up for this board because I've come back for the 8th edition. My favorite army is Blood Angels but I wanted to get something different to start this edition. I've always been into the "cultist" side of the game and was pleased to see that GSC are in the new (probably last couple of) edition.
For models on the board I plan to run two rock grinders with a load out of aberrants + icon in one and a group of acolytes in the other. I will also run 1-2 large neophyte squads.I will have a magus with these squads moving up to throw spells.
For ambush I plan to have a large group of GS with a primus. His reroll to land his ambush will help get that group into combat.
For my remaining ambush squads I may just do more GS, with the primarch. Either that or add some acolytes. I don't know how I feel about the acolytles/metamorphs on the ambush. I think with a good roll they would be great. Without the roll they'll be fodder.
Anyway, this board has been very helpful.
Welcome. Genestealers and neophytes do ambush pretty well.
The Purestrain Genestealer go back up to 15 points.
They started at 18, then 10, then 15.
I'm not sure what happened at that 10. It's the same cost that the tyranid version but maybe the cult ambush made them overpowered. The ammount of genestaler spam we where seing here is proof to that.
To me 15 seems a bit much, specially compared to the tyranid version but, of course, I'm not an impartial party.
Cheers for the link, I wish they turned the entire paragraph magenta instead of just "15" I missed it on the first readthrough. A needed nerf I think atleast to keep the in-codex relative points in balance. I think they are still good but not good enough to spam as anti-vehicle.
So what do you bring as anti-tank, abberants, acolytes with blasting charges or mining weapons, the Russ or something completly different?
jifel wrote:Here's a question: where do we go next? What're our most competitive units now?
I think most of the army is still fairly strong, the only units I'd really advise avoiding are Metamorphs (at least until they get a price adjustment of their own and/or some tweaks to their weapons) and the cult version of AM units since they can be gotten as allies (barring Sentinels - since we have no other Fast Attack if we want a Brigade). The rest all have a role of some sort to play, though there are a lot of variables in how valuable they may be (Acolytes for instance are probably better served as allies for AM since they cover a niche that Neophytes do not, while faction pure Neophytes are stronger since they are the primary source of ranged anti-infantry in faction and all other infantry compete for the melee shock-trooper role).
Admittedly it is a bit biased based on our local meta, but if I were to attend a local tournament using only my GSC, I'd probably look towards Goliath and Aberrant spam supported by ambushing Neophytes and characters. I've found Aberrants to actually be surprisingly tough against a lot of common weapons and they have a small squad footprint so they are fairly easy to hide. The S10 hammers are also a huge help against fortifications and heavier vehicles that give S8 and S4 rending claws fits...
jifel wrote:
Same thing with Neophytes, I feel like Elysians completely invalidate them.
I'm not familiar with Elysians apart from their being able to deploy via grav-chute, but assuming their infantry are mostly similar to regular guardsmen outside of their deployment shenanigans Neophytes should still have a place in-faction since the former is oriented towards shooting alone while the latter is more oriented towards a mixture of shooting and assault (everyone has autopistols so they can shoot while engaged, most GSC buffs are melee oriented, can take a 20-strong unit for more staying power and more attacks, etc.). Running them alongside guard I'd probably opt for Shotguns instead of Autoguns, since the extra rapid-fire S3 is redundant but the mass of close-range S4 or ability to run-and-gun should be useful.
I would actually be interested in seeing an Elysian + GSC army. If I remember right Elysians are the only Imperial force with wheeled vehicles, which would probably look really nice amongst our Goliaths.
jifel wrote:
12 would've been perfect I felt. Honestly Genestealer spam was not auto win at the top levels [...] I *could* stick to Genestealers but that feels so much less efficient now.
I think the main reason for the price being where it is now rather than 12 is to not invalidate the Hive Fleet Genestealers rather than pure tournament performance (unlike the flyer nerf). As seen in the Tyranid thread, the prior price point had everyone swapping their Genestealers out for Purestrains and the Hive Fleet Genestealers can't really get much cheaper than they are without overshadowing all other Tyranid troops even more than they do now. At 15 points per model the Purestrains have a fair balance between being cheap enough to bring in large squads but just expensive enough that Hive Fleet 'stealers can be considered as a viable budget alternative.
I have 5 Hybrid Metamorphs build, where 4 have hand flamers. Are hand flamers worth it in any way? They seem pretty expensive.
Ignoring the fact that Metamorphs are too expensive anyway right now. I could probably play them as Acolyths...
Astmeister wrote: I have 5 Hybrid Metamorphs build, where 4 have hand flamers. Are hand flamers worth it in any way? They seem pretty expensive.
Ignoring the fact that Metamorphs are too expensive anyway right now. I could probably play them as Acolyths...
I used to be a big fan of mass hand flamers in 7th (my old metamorph squad practically did more damage by popping up and flaming than in assault) but they got hit pretty bad by the loss of templates, close range ambushes, and the general cost hike on 1st and 2nd generation hybrids. I'm tempted to try running a flamer squad build using Acolytes for hoard clearing (flame and then charge with cult knives) but I don't think such a build would be worth it on Metamorphs since they already pay so much for their weapons and the extra attack they get over an Acolyte.
Also worth noting, Demolition Charge Acolytes don't trade in their pistols for their explosives, so they are probably one of the better places for the weapon since it gives them something to do once their explosives have been tossed.
I do not understand the 3 different mellee elite slots, and the one troop mellee slot. What role do they perform better then the others?
Genestealers: Fast, general purpose damage dealer and the best ambusher since they have the mobility to overcome a bad ambush roll.
Aberrants: Aberrants are the only source of S10 melee in-faction for smashing very high toughness units such as fortifications and heavy vehicles. They also are the only multi-wound infantry models in faction that aren't characters and their Bestial Vigor rule makes them fairly resilient against 2 damage or D3 damage weapons.
Acolyte Hybrids: Acolytes are for armor cracking and anti-vehicle/monster using their special weapons. Demolition Charges are their primary tool for this task, either as drive-by bombings or as a means to soften up a target before finishing it off in melee. Rock Cutters are for multi-wound infantry/monsters, Rock Drills are for large vehicles/monsters and fortifications, and Rock Saws are more or less general purpose (being more accurate than Cutters and being cheaper than the Drills).
Metamorph Hybrids: Anti-infantry melee squad with rending claws as back-up. Whip-morphs are for soaking hits since they are the cheapest variant and always get to swing, Talon-morphs are for accurate anti-infantry attacks (hitting on 2's without a Primus' oversight), and Claw-morphs are for lowering the to-wound threshold by 1.
In terms of mathhammer, Genestealers with their bonus attack are the most cost efficient melee unit until you get to T5+ models with more than 2 wounds each, wherein Aberrants with hammers overtake them in terms of wounds inflicted per point spent. Acolytes sit somewhere between the two depending on target/weapon/squad size and Metamorphs are in general too expensive for what they do. It is worth noting though, both Acolytes and Metamorphs have access to the Cult Icon while the other two do not, so they do have the option of rerolling 1's which is quite handy when paired with something that lets either hit on 2's.
For the most part they are, though the Goliath truck is a better platform for shooting squads since it is open topped and has a fairly good gun in its own right while the Chimera is a bit tougher and has a higher transport capacity so it is better for delivering assault squads. Also worth remembering that the Goliath Rockgrinder also has a transport capacity as well, though it can only carry assault squads. The Goliath is slightly more resilient against weapons and abilities that deal mortal wounds though since it has the 6+ Rugged Construction to fall back on.
The Chimera fit's 12. sounds like a good place to fit a primarc and 11 genestealers. Probably the best delivery system out of rolling very lucky on the infiltrate table.
The Goliath Trukk sounds like a funn gunn car. Drive within 24 or 12 and kill things. 2 support weapons for funn.
It does not sound like good use of points having it stand still with a lascannon squad inside.
Since there seems to be a fair amount of cut and paste between indexes and codexes, the most hope inspiring thing I've seen is in the new CSM codex.
Tide of Traitors: Remove a unit of Cultists from the table at the end of your movement phase and return them to the game within 6″ of a table edge and 9″ away from enemy units at full strength.
adamsouza wrote: Since there seems to be a fair amount of cut and paste between indexes and codexes, the most hope inspiring thing I've seen is in the new CSM codex.
Tide of Traitors: Remove a unit of Cultists from the table at the end of your movement phase and return them to the game within 6″ of a table edge and 9″ away from enemy units at full strength.
Word! I yearn for the days of yore, and "endless" I hope Gaunts get a version as well.
Hello!
Sorry, I've just made an account on the forum because I'm pretty desperate to get my army together lol.
I've started collecting genestealer cults for the new edition and haven't been doing well.
I usually have a good one or two turns, killing crazy amounts of stuff in the opening turns, but then quickly run out of steam as whatever units I ambushed are gunned down/countercharged.
My army also struggles with transports, as whatever unit I send after it cracks open the transport and is killed by whats inside.
I also struggle with enemy commanders (such as plague lords). I've had two games now where I've attacked such a unit with strong unit of acolytes, failed to kill it in one round, and then lost 4 to the counter attack, eventually losing the squad to attrition and morale.
And I've recently had a game where I've been more or less unable to to do anything about a unit of Wraithguard with D-Scythes and laser-bikes.
I just wonder if I'm bad at 40k now or something. I've even tried adding basilisks to my army (I don't want to overdue it with allies, I really want my army to be mutants and mining equipment!) But I've played nine games and won ONE of them.
Please tell me there's a viable way to play my army (I don't really like purestrain genestealers or want to use a bunch of allies, but I have plenty of neophytes, acolytes, transports and aberrants!)....
Alternatively... tell me my army is really underpowered for prides sake.
Thanks for reading
Szunray wrote: Hello!
Sorry, I've just made an account on the forum because I'm pretty desperate to get my army together lol.
I've started collecting genestealer cults for the new edition and haven't been doing well.
I usually have a good one or two turns, killing crazy amounts of stuff in the opening turns, but then quickly run out of steam as whatever units I ambushed are gunned down/countercharged.
My army also struggles with transports, as whatever unit I send after it cracks open the transport and is killed by whats inside.
I also struggle with enemy commanders (such as plague lords). I've had two games now where I've attacked such a unit with strong unit of acolytes, failed to kill it in one round, and then lost 4 to the counter attack, eventually losing the squad to attrition and morale.
And I've recently had a game where I've been more or less unable to to do anything about a unit of Wraithguard with D-Scythes and laser-bikes.
I just wonder if I'm bad at 40k now or something. I've even tried adding basilisks to my army (I don't want to overdue it with allies, I really want my army to be mutants and mining equipment!) But I've played nine games and won ONE of them.
Please tell me there's a viable way to play my army (I don't really like purestrain genestealers or want to use a bunch of allies, but I have plenty of neophytes, acolytes, transports and aberrants!)....
Alternatively... tell me my army is really underpowered for prides sake.
Thanks for reading
Well, I don't play GSC, but...not liking Purestrains is a part of the problem. They are your "heavy hitters" How much Psycher trix are you using? GSC has some pretty boss Psychic powerz...?
Well, I usually use mass hypnosis and might from beyond in my opening ambush. I use mass hypnosis to halt overwatch from flamer squads, or just nerf a shooting unit I wont be able to tie up.
Unfortunately, the powers go off about half the time, and get denied about half the time... and the squad the magus is attending usually only gets one shot at charging before they get wiped out!
I hear people say I need Genestealers but, that's surprisingly, the least attractive unit to me. I got the army to run tau battlesuits over with bulldozers and have my shirtless mooks swat helldrakes out the sky with mining equipment... The Genestealers just don't do it for me.
Is that my problem? I'd hate to have to use a bunch of one particular unit just to have a chance, but that's better than having to ally a bunch of stuff at least.
Yeah...kinda. Purestrains can eat space marines for breakfast, and can charge off an advance. Not only can they delete units on their own, they fix the attention of the foe. Without that, the job is much harder. I suppose lots of goofballs with Shotguns can help though
The problem you mentioned is taking out the rock hard stuff, and thats what the "G" in GSC does best. Hopefully some actual GSC players can add more, I play Nids exclusively myself. But I am considering Purestrains as allies for "serious" games.
Szunray wrote: I usually have a good one or two turns, killing crazy amounts of stuff in the opening turns, but then quickly run out of steam as whatever units I ambushed are gunned down/countercharged.
That has been my experience with first turn ambushes too. I've found it is better to use your Ambushers to encircle the foe and close off avenues of escape rather than pull off an alpha strike, unless you think you can pull it off without much retaliation (eliminating an isolated fire support unit for instance). I've also found Neophytes are the best suited for alpha-strike ambushing, as they can drop in on cover and happily plink away at foes with their ranged weapons without exposing themselves.
My army also struggles with transports, as whatever unit I send after it cracks open the transport and is killed by what's inside.
I also struggle with enemy commanders (such as plague lords). I've had two games now where I've attacked such a unit with strong unit of acolytes, failed to kill it in one round, and then lost 4 to the counter attack, eventually losing the squad to attrition and morale.
I've been using a combination of (Heavy) Mining Lasers and Demolition Charges for most of my anti-transport work. Demolition Charges are also excellent for tough characters like the aforementioned Plague Lord, as they can force a lot of wounds on them and soften them up for the ensuing charge.
Apart from that, the Patriarch is ideal for shredding enemy characters since he has an invulnerable save backed up with Unquestioning Loyalty to keep him safe and his claws inflict high damage with good AP. A Primus can also do some damage with his toxin injector claw, but he is better off leading minions to do the bulk of the work since he is far more fragile. Aberrants in general are also fairly good at bashing characters, but they don't like fighting targets with good invulnerable saves. If all else fails, Smite spam on the part of Magi or clever application of Mind Control should suffice.
I hear people say I need Genestealers but, that's surprisingly, the least attractive unit to me. I got the army to run tau battlesuits over with bulldozers and have my shirtless mooks swat helldrakes out the sky with mining equipment... The Genestealers just don't do it for me.
Is that my problem? I'd hate to have to use a bunch of one particular unit just to have a chance, but that's better than having to ally a bunch of stuff at least.
You don't need them to win, but Genestealers are a very strong and flexible unit simply because they throw so many dice. Nothing likes being on the receiving end of 80-odd attacks, especially when a sixth of them will more or less ignore armor entirely. That said, other units can perform similar functions to Genestealers, just they don't have the sheer flexibility their cousins offer due to a lower dice pool paired with more specialized weapons.
- Acolytes can do anti-hoard with their Knives, but aren't quite as good at taking on heavy infantry due to fewer rending attacks and their special weapons are biased towards large multi-wound targets. - Metamorphs with Whips have the same number of Rending attacks as Genestealers do at 5-10 strong units for the same cost, though they don't have the invulnerable save for dueling other melee specialists (whips help a bit). - Aberrants with Power Picks are descent against heavy infantry (and actually pull slightly ahead of Genestealers against 2-3 wound models) but lack the volume of attacks for more numerous infantry.
I just wonder if I'm bad at 40k now or something. I've even tried adding basilisks to my army (I don't want to overdue it with allies, I really want my army to be mutants and mining equipment!) But I've played nine games and won ONE of them.
I'm 50/50 with them myself and favor the industrial side of the army as well. A lot of it stems from knowing when to launch an ambush and when to hold back and bait the foe into a trap. I have a habit picked up from my Tyranids of getting overly aggressive which generally comes back to bite me...
That said, always play for the objectives. GSC is very good at getting troops to where they need to be for scoring while keeping the enemy busy with scary melee units. As long as you can keep the enemy off the objectives, nothing else matters.
Please tell me there's a viable way to play my army (I don't really like purestrain genestealers or want to use a bunch of allies, but I have plenty of neophytes, acolytes, transports and aberrants!)....
Using just the industrial side of the army, I'd look towards Goliaths and Neophytes to make up the core of your list with a handful of Acolytes and Aberrants to provide heavy armor cracking and counter-assault. I've been having my Neophytes ambush and the melee units ride in transports, but depending on the match-up you can swap who rides and who walks. You will want at least one Primus if you have any Rockgrinders as he improves their efficiency tremendously.
Alternatively... tell me my army is really underpowered for prides sake. Thanks for reading
I'm not sure about underpowered per say, but I'd definitely say it has a hefty learning curve when played without allies and is fairly unforgiving of mistakes. I imagine a lot will improve when the codex is finally released, as our 7th edition book had most of its strength tied to special abilities.
A bit of mathhammer regarding our melee units. The most efficient point per wounds inflicted in each category is underlined, with the small caveat that Rock Cutters and Rock Drills do not have their special abilities calculated into their average damage (need to ask my brother how to calculate them) and the calculations are looking only at damage output and are assuming all models are able to fight, with no external buffs or debuffs.
Anyway:
VS: T3 5+ Sv. - 10x Metamorphs (Whip - Using Rending Claw): 12.27 wounds @ 12.2 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 11.8 wounds @ 18.64 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 11.8 wounds @ 15.25 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 11.8 wounds @ 12.7 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 23.76 wounds @ 9.46 points per wound. - 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 8.91 wounds @ 12.3 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 8 wounds @ 13.75 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 3.52 wounds @ 46.5 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 3.48 wounds @ 35.6 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each): 3.5 wounds @ 20.7 points per wound.
VS: T4, 3+ Sv. (1 wound) - 10x Metamorphs (Whip + Rending Claw): 6.75 wounds @ 22.2 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 4.45 wounds @ 49.43 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 4.5 wounds @ 40 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 6.53 wounds @ 22.9 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 13.06 wounds @ 17.2 points per wound. - 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 3.37 wounds @ 32.6 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 5.56 wounds @ 19.78 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (4x Rock Saws): 10.21 wounds @ 20.37 points per wound.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Drills): 10.21 wounds @ 22.39 points per wound.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Cutters): 9.08 wounds @ 22.24 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 3.09 wounds @ 53.07 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 2.29 wounds @ 54.14 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each): 2.69 wounds @ 53.53 points per wound.
VS: T4, 3+ Sv. (2 wound) - 10x Metamorphs (Whip + Rending Claw): 6.75 wounds @ 22.2 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 4.45 wounds @ 49.43 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 4.5 wounds @ 40 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 6.53 wounds @ 22.9 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 13.06 wounds @ 17.2 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 3.37 wounds @ 32.6 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 5.56 wounds @ 19.78 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (4x Rock Saws): 14.86 wounds @ 13.9 points per wound. -10x Acolytes (4x Rock Drills): 10.21 wounds @ 22.39 points per wound.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Cutters): 12.6 wounds @ 16.03 points per wound*.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 6.19 wounds @ 26.46 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 4.59 wounds @ 27 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each) 5.39 wounds @ 26.71 points per wound.
VS: T5, 3+ Sv. - 10x Metamorphs (Whip + Rending Claw): 5.01 wounds @ 29.94 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 4.45 wounds @ 49.43 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 2.97 wounds @ 60.6 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 4.85 wounds @ 30.9 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 9.7 wounds @ 23.2 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 2.2 wounds @ 50 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 3.9 wounds @ 28.2 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (4x Rock Saws): 12.95 wounds @ 16.06 points per wound. -10x Acolytes (4x Rock Drills): 9.46 wounds @ 24.3 points per wound*.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Cutters): 11.26 wounds @ 17.9 points per wound*.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 9.29 wounds @ 17.65 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 3.48 wounds @ 35.63 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each) 6.94 wounds @20.74 points per wound.
VS: T7, 3+ Sv. - 10x Metamorphs (Whip + Rending Claw): 5.01 wounds @ 29.94 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 2.23 wounds @ 98.65 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 2.97 wounds @ 60.6 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 4.85 wounds @ 30.9 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 9.7 wounds @ 23.2 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 2.2 wounds @ 50 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 3.39 wounds @ 32.44 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (4x Rock Saws): 12.95 wounds @ 16.06 points per wound. -10x Acolytes (4x Rock Drills): 9.46 wounds @ 24.3 points per wound*.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Cutters): 11.26 wounds @ 17.9 points per wound*.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 6.96 wounds @23.56 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 2.29 wounds @ 54.14 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each) 4.63 wounds @ 31.1 points per wound.
VS: T8, 3+ Sv. - 10x Metamorphs (Whip + Rending Claw): 3.2 wounds @ 46.87 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Claw): 2.22 wounds @ 99.09 points per wound.
- 10x Metamorphs (Metamorph Talon): 1.44 wounds @ 125 points per wound.
- 10x Genestealers: 3.16 wounds @ 47.46 points per wound.
- 15x Genestealers: 6.3 wounds @ 35.7 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Cult Knives): 1.08 wounds @ 101.85 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (Rending Claws): 3.27 wounds @ 33.63 points per wound.
- 10x Acolytes (4x Rock Saws): 6.65 wounds @ 31.27 points per wound.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Drills): 4.01 wounds @ 57.35 points per wound*.
-10x Acolytes (4x Rock Cutters): 5.37 wounds @ 37.61 points per wound*.
- 4x Aberrants (4x Power Hammers): 6.96 wounds @23.56 points per wound. - 4x Aberrants (4x Power Picks): 2.29 wounds @ 54.14 points per wound.
- 4x Aberrants (2x of each) 4.63 wounds @ 31.1 points per wound.
Surprisingly, Metamorphs with whips slightly out perform Genestealers at smaller unit sizes due to the Metamorph Leader. Once the bonus attack from having more than 10 models kicks in, the Genestealers surge ahead again. The other two weapons are both fairly poor in comparison, owing more to their costs than anything else (Claw especially - even against its ideal target brackets of T3 and T5 models it under performs compared to the talons or whips).
argonak wrote: What size bases are genestealers on? I have some from years back that are clearly on 25mm, but I saw someone saying they were 32mm in another post.
Are GSC genestealers based differently than Tyranid?
The Genestealer kit comes with 25mm slotted bases while the Purestrains that come in Overkill are on 32mm bases like the Acolytes/Metamorphs/Aberrants. If they release a new Genestealer kit that builds both Hive Fleet Genestealers and Purestrains they will probably go on the larger bases, but for now just stick with the ones the individual model is packed with.
Please tell me there's a viable way to play my army (I don't really like purestrain genestealers or want to use a bunch of allies, but I have plenty of neophytes, acolytes, transports and aberrants!)....
Using just the industrial side of the army, I'd look towards Goliaths and Neophytes to make up the core of your list with a handful of Acolytes and Aberrants to provide heavy armor cracking and counter-assault. I've been having my Neophytes ambush and the melee units ride in transports, but depending on the match-up you can swap who rides and who walks. You will want at least one Primus if you have any Rockgrinders as he improves their efficiency tremendously.
Alternatively... tell me my army is really underpowered for prides sake.
Thanks for reading
I'm not sure about underpowered per say, but I'd definitely say it has a hefty learning curve when played without allies and is fairly unforgiving of mistakes. I imagine a lot will improve when the codex is finally released, as our 7th edition book had most of its strength tied to special abilities.
Hello again, thanks for your answers!
I just wanted to say I saw your answers and used the advice in my last games. Primus and Rockgrinders are an amazing combination, I had been overlooking demo-charge acolytes (besides looking cool as a model), and melee units fair a lot better being carried in transports rather than ambushing!
That said in the last game I played I... didn't ambush anything. Admittedly, I didn't even use any neophytes. A single unit of imperial guard basilisks did all of my shooting (I play around 1250 mostly)
The basilisks *forced* my opponent to come to me and my acolytes in transports defended them really well.
I haven't quite worked out where neophytes or ambushing will fit into my army (even though I'd like to use both of these) and I know my army isn't the most competitive, but this thread has been really helpful.
argonak wrote: What size bases are genestealers on? I have some from years back that are clearly on 25mm, but I saw someone saying they were 32mm in another post.
Are GSC genestealers based differently than Tyranid?
The Genestealer kit comes with 25mm slotted bases while the Purestrains that come in Overkill are on 32mm bases like the Acolytes/Metamorphs/Aberrants. If they release a new Genestealer kit that builds both Hive Fleet Genestealers and Purestrains they will probably go on the larger bases, but for now just stick with the ones the individual model is packed with.
Thanks, that's pretty much what I wanted to know. I was thinking about picking up the overkill box too and using them to add variety to my IG army via brood brothers.
Wondering if GSC players with more experience than myself would comment on this list that i posted in the List part of the forums. I have the GS as 10 points, not 15 so will have to adjust.
Hearing some positive reviews of Abberants in a specialized role as heavy destroyers. I certainly like the idea of fielding them in a Rockgrinder but man...they are A LOT of points.
Different topic:
I really like the look of Ratling Snipers as a unique and powerful unit to field as part of the Brood Brother rule. The Ratling models are not to my liking though. It seems like the most appropriate replacement are the GSC familiar models that come with the Magus and Primus sprues. Trouble is they have no sniper-like weapons. I've been attempting to locate a suitable weapon I could convert onto those small little guys but they are VERY small and even pistols look oversized. Wondering if anyone has suggestions or can I just say they are using their inborn psychic ability to snipe?
Szunray wrote:
Hello again, thanks for your answers!
I just wanted to say I saw your answers and used the advice in my last games. Primus and Rockgrinders are an amazing combination, I had been overlooking demo-charge acolytes (besides looking cool as a model), and melee units fair a lot better being carried in transports rather than ambushing!
That said in the last game I played I... didn't ambush anything. Admittedly, I didn't even use any neophytes. A single unit of imperial guard basilisks did all of my shooting (I play around 1250 mostly)
The basilisks *forced* my opponent to come to me and my acolytes in transports defended them really well.
I haven't quite worked out where neophytes or ambushing will fit into my army (even though I'd like to use both of these) and I know my army isn't the most competitive, but this thread has been really helpful.
Glad to have been of help! I tend to deploy Ambushing Neophytes in annoying-to-deal-with places, such as the top levels of a ruin (ideally close to an objective). Once in place they tend to be ignored as the effort needed to remove them is more trouble than they are worth, despite raining down all manner of munitions.
Caspian89 wrote:
I really like the look of Ratling Snipers as a unique and powerful unit to field as part of the Brood Brother rule. The Ratling models are not to my liking though. It seems like the most appropriate replacement are the GSC familiar models that come with the Magus and Primus sprues. Trouble is they have no sniper-like weapons. I've been attempting to locate a suitable weapon I could convert onto those small little guys but they are VERY small and even pistols look oversized. Wondering if anyone has suggestions or can I just say they are using their inborn psychic ability to snipe?
Maybe take a page from Nurglings and have a pair of Familiars working together to operate a single normal-sized rifle? The Ratlings are a bit bigger/taller than Familiars so it would help make up the difference there too.
Szunray wrote:
Maybe take a page from Nurglings and have a pair of Familiars working together to operate a single normal-sized rifle? The Ratlings are a bit bigger/taller than Familiars so it would help make up the difference there too.
That's a great idea. I'll fiddle around with that for a while. Haven't thought of that. Forum value achieved!
I'd love to write a new primer, but since 8th dropped I've only ever been able to play my GSC twice, and never terribly successfully. If people want to make a new thread you can go for it, I'd also be happy to copy/paste with credit a new primer or if a mod wanted to pull some forum black magic to create a new OP that'd be fine. This is definitely not "my thread" anymore 35 pages in and it was made for 7th, so it may be time to move on and just transplant the 8th discussion to a better OP.
JohnnyHell wrote: Familiars are WAY too tiny to be even Ratlings. You'll struggle for LOS and will no doubt MFA cries!
I found a good base: Plague Monk bodies.
They are a bit smaller than normal Neophytes which is perfect but still can pair well scale-wise with other parts from other kits.
Then I'll add Acolyte heads and Dark Eldark Kabalite Warriors arms/guns. I think I can paint and modify their rifles to take on an organic/Tyranid quality. If I have the money I could invest in individual Sniper Rifles and replace the Dark Eldar ones but I'm not sure I'll go that far. Sniper Rifle bits are expensive.
I tried Termagant arms but they are too big for the Plague Monk bodies. Dark Eldar arms can at least be painted to match the rest of my army and not look too out of place. I'll also be adding lots of cork and rocks to make them look like they are sniping from concealed positions.
The whole project is relatively inexpensive yielding 20 Ratlings models for about $80 CAD, which is cheaper than buying the official metal models by $20. I end up with a look I like and who can value that?!
Oh, well I guess you'd need a differant 
Oh, well I was looking foward to hilarity. 
