I'm running into a similar situation. I'm playing in the Adepticon Team Tournament and we're doing a blend of a cult themed list. One army can take a formation, so that's obviously a subterranean. One list will be pure tyranids, and the other is a tempestus scions list. But for the two GSC lists, I'm contemplating more mech. Potentially Primus as HQ's attached to big genestealer squads. They're fairly durable.
When you have to run essentially CAD and only get 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy, 1 Fast and 3 Troops, it makes for interesting selections.
If it helps at all, I was thinking about something like this:
HQ: Magnus with Level 2 and Crouchling
ELITES: 10x Metamorphs with Claws and Banner + Goliath Truck
Off the top of my head I think that was around 980, so a bit of points to play around with (hadn't decided on a weapon configuration for the Sentinels). Regrettably, my teammates are all using Imperials so I can't use the cult due to Adepticon's theme scoring system.
Also when building metamorphs, I've been using the Tyranid Warrior/Lictor-looking Rending Claws that were intended for use on the squad leaders as extra Metamorph Claws, since they do look bulkier than their standard claws and are technically still "claws" rather than Talons.
zedsdead wrote: im curious if Tank shock becomes a big disadvantage to the GSC since the only unit giving fearless is the patriarch. I see guys running multi units of genestealers. However without fearless they become more susceptible to Tank Shocks. MSU and gladius could preform this pretty well.
Is this a correct assumption or false ?
Yes and no. Losing units to TS Morale checks isn't a huge problem, but an army with lots of tanks can run them into your lines, which means bunched-up dudes perfect for Blasting or Templates and no way to RttS. If he does that though you'll be able to shred his tanks next turn and potentially pin the majority of his army with Emergency Disembarkations so it's six and two threes.
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.
Its why im still trying to figure out a Mech GSC army
Been trying to do that since the book came out, and in all honesty I think if you want mech GSC your best bet is to bring Guard with a Demo Claw or two. Everything else seems supremely underwhelming.
i actually also run a doting throng to get fearless units of neophytes in the list to help tie things up in combat and have another bubble of fearless in-case the patriarch dies or has to be on another part of the board.
One of the lists we are trying out next has 19 trucks in it but i dont think it will do nearly as well as the hord army for gsc
I dont mind prople tank shocking especially if they have units in them as you have enough bodies to charge and surround them and kill everything inside. this really only happens with un-experienced players but sometimes you can catch a good player off guard with it and get free KP'S
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.
Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.
Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.
So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.
Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.
Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.
Both wyverns and Tfcs are ignores cover for what thats worth. Not saying edge of the board isn't a good strategy tho.
jifel wrote: So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...
Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Not really. Cult Ambush mitigates a lot of the damage these things can do and allows you to run them down quickly.
Its still possible to put the non-subterean uprising units in normal reserves (2+) with cult ambush and deploy the subterean uprising units in the back, on the table edge and every model 2 inch from each other. If the barrage blast doesn't scatter (of the table) its still only going to take about 3 models down.
Also a tip: dont forget the 5+ coversave you get from 'intervening models'. In combination with first turn shrouded it can be really handy.
Both wyverns and Tfcs are ignores cover for what thats worth. Not saying edge of the board isn't a good strategy tho.
The intervening models tip had nothing to do with the (indirect) barrage ignore cover blasts. just a separate piece of advice.
Been trying to do that since the book came out, and in all honesty I think if you want mech GSC your best bet is to bring Guard with a Demo Claw or two. Everything else seems supremely underwhelming.
Emperor's Wrath Artillery nonsense and 2 Demo Claws seems to be a pretty solid combo. You might as well bring a Brood cycle for the proper culty goodness and some extra bodies to keep stuff away from your vehicles, too.
I think GSC troopers are just too fragile to make a decent meatshield, which relegates them to running up-field, and I'd imagine using GSC assault units plus artillery might get a bit... claustrophobic.
I still want to try GSC + Shadowsword though. Not sure how competitive it would be, but it sounds like fun.
jifel wrote: So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...
Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform
Gotta disagree on the Icarus... flyrant is much better firepower and can be used for normal shooting not just AA, and are just bou always useful. An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits. I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.
jifel wrote: An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits.
You're generally running at least one CAD in a pure GSC army though. Even with Allies I think you want those extra Patriarchs.
I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.
If you're trying to build GSC on the cheap money-wise then I agree, double Flyrants are probably the best way. In terms of army function though, I think pure GSC just works better. Everyone swears blind to me that Flyrants are the best units in the game, but the one time I ran them they were both dead by turn 3. Not only that, but I had to take out so many of my Claw-Morphs that I ended up assaulting with Neophytes, which is not a position you want to be in.
My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.
vercingatorix wrote: Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.
I'm not worried about Riptides, to be honest. Fire 8 pulse shots and 4 SMS rockets into my 5-man squads all you like. Takes a long while to chew them down, but hey.
Stormsurges are a massive pain, though. The 4D6 thing alone is pretty nasty.
vercingatorix wrote: Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.
I'm not worried about Riptides, to be honest. Fire 8 pulse shots and 4 SMS rockets into my 5-man squads all you like. Takes a long while to chew them down, but hey.
Stormsurges are a massive pain, though. The 4D6 thing alone is pretty nasty.
Why do you care? You said you only take 5 man squads? Also no overwatch (from itself anyway)
I would think 8 sms rockets (let's be real) would be your worst nightmare. As I said earlier in the thread but no one responded. 3 riptides remove 6 units with ripple fire/ hail fire smart missiles alone.
vercingatorix wrote: Why do you care? You said you only take 5 man squads? Also no overwatch (from itself anyway)
I hide my HQs in 10-man Neophyte squads - the 4D6 thing (no idea what it's called) can force my HQs to roll saves. I'm not used to doing that for GSCHQs, and I don't like it.
I would think 8 sms rockets (let's be real) would be your worst nightmare. As I said earlier in the thread but no one responded.
At BS3, not really. They're not nice, but they're not putting enough wounds into anything to force my HQs to roll saves. Might remove a unit or two, but hey.
3 riptides remove 6 units with ripple fire/ hail fire smart missiles alone.
... leaving me with 19-21 units, right?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not being flippant about these things - Tau are not an easy army to face down with GSC, but they're not as intimidating to GSC as they are to other armies. Going first would make the game easier, but I don't think you're totally screwed if you go second. Your mobility is limited by EWOs but you've still got a pretty huge board presence going for you, and your killiness is scattered throughout your whole army. It's not an easy game, but it's not an auto-loss.
vercingatorix wrote: My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.
See I've had no issues with riptides at all, but I see fliers as a huge issue for GSC. Any FMC with witchfires can do huge damage. Fatey or magnus both auto know a nova which is super bad. Flyrants help a lot there. Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.
jifel wrote: Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.
I'm not convinced that's a bonus, considering the stuff you have to remove to fit the Flyrants in. 510pts is 46 Claw-Morphs, and with only 4 wounds your Flyrants really aren't that resilient against massed S6 shooting. I'm also not convinced they'll be much help against Magnus; he doesn't care about SitW and the Devourers won't worry him at all. I'm not even sure it'd be better than nothing against him; having more models means losing a bucketful to Novas is less of an issue.
jifel wrote: So here's a fun fact: A flyrant +Mucolid costs almost the same as a basic bare bones Subterranean Uprising (2x5 Acolytes, 3x5 Claw Metamorphs. Only a ten point difference, 255 vs 245... In that perspective it really makes me rethink my list sadly :/ And now I need to go buy 5 more boxes of acolytes...
Thats why I rather go with full GSC. acolytes and metamorphs can almost deal with anything but hive tyrant devourers got their limits. If you want sum anti-flyer your better of with an aegis defence line + skyfire/interceptor weapon platform
Gotta disagree on the Icarus... flyrant is much better firepower and can be used for normal shooting not just AA, and are just bou always useful. An Aegis requires a CAD which means lots more tax units that don't get any real benefits. I am a bit back and forth on 2/3 flyrants but I wouldn't go lower than 2. Too many lists are vulnerable to flyrants, I can't really justify not having them, especially given the $ cost of a full GSC army.
You're comparing a 35/50 points anti flyer gun with a 240 point hive tyrant, so yea the Hive tyrant got better fire power. Some lists are vulnerable to hive tyrants but against most lists I'am better off with 25(5x5) extra acolytes/metamorphs. If the enemy brought 1 helldrake, stormtalon etc.. its enough to bring only a icarus gun. If the enemy brought 3/4 flyers it got a -1 reserves and the will be to late to stop the GSC army because to much points where spend on flyers.
jifel wrote:
vercingatorix wrote: My problem with flyrants is that they don't help against your worst match up, riptides. Generally you want to diversify your armies ability to fight enemies, not buckle down and hope you don't face possibly the most popular unit in the competitive meta.
See I've had no issues with riptides at all, but I see fliers as a huge issue for GSC. Any FMC with witchfires can do huge damage. Fatey or magnus both auto know a nova which is super bad. Flyrants help a lot there. Flyrants are also good for drawing fire against inexperienced opponents.
Riptides are not my worst enemy with GSC. Yes, there shooting hurts but if only a few GSC models with rending break thru its over quick. Daemon FMC really forces GSC to play the mission and for that you need more GSC-units. Flyrants drop dead against Daemon FMC. Don't understand why you would think that Flyrants are great in this scenario.
I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.
I also agree that sending wave after wave of my own men in to do whatever is the best defense for flyers. Accept that you can't do anything about them, and make it hard for them to maneuver around your units as you kill stuff.
For mech, here's the core I had in mind - a fairly obvious start:
All that is 1455, so you have ~400 pts to play with. I'd originally planned an Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation for some impressive crowd control and -1 reserve shenanigans, but you could certainly opt to flesh out the Demo Claws with 2 more units of Acolytes and tank-hunting Goliaths plus some DTs in the Brood Cycle. You might also add a SubUp for extra ambush punch to disorganize your opponent's DZ. All options seem quite viable.
Either way, I think it's a solid core. 10 vehicles should be enough to group up and position to avoid the vast majority of side shots, not to mention dominate a large chunk of space on the board. You've also got a fair amount of pesky combat units to RTTS/ambush around the board.
It seems like the game to play with this army will be midfield control. The Rock Grinders are awesome at close and middle range shooting, and you can readily place screening units in the way of anything getting danger close. The demo charge Acolytes will basically hide out of sight until they can either run up to something and demo charge it or get an ambush 6. Goliaths and Neophytes sit back and/or camp objectives while providing ranged support.
It's not the conventional way to run GSC, but I can see it working well. Remember that while GSC is awesome at the early offensive, cult ambush also makes it exceptional at counter-offensives. Anything trying to get close to your steel curtain does so at its own peril!
I started out thinking that flyrants would be the natural ally for GSC, but as time has gone on i have changed my mind.
Flyrants are very good, but mostly in the context of a particular build. Flyrants work best when you have a lot of them. A single flyrant just is not that durable. Any list that is prepared for Riptides has the tools too kill 2-3 flyrants.
When you have five or six highly mobile very shooty tyrants you can absorb the loss of one or two, kill the key threats, and be in decent shape. When you only have two of them and the rest of your army is built around a completely different set of tactics, a smart opponent is going to be able to focus down or ignore the tyrants.
Now, a single flyrant + two mucolids is only 270 points, and it is a nice tool against the occassional flyer, but I don't see it being worth the investment because GSC is not worried about the occassional flyer. GSC is worried about the flyer heavy lists, like daemons or (ironically) mass Flyrants, that it can't touch for 5 turns while taking casualties.
In those cases I think the viable options are to either just try play the mission using the Cults ability to take casulties and not care or to invest in IG allies.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.
The thing about Broadsides over Riptides and Stormsurges is they bring the most useless unit in the GSC army - Neophytes - into the game. Their damage is still negligible, and they're still mainly tarpits rather than threats, but they can pick wounds off here and there in a way they couldn't against the bigger stuff.
You've also got a fair amount of pesky combat units to RTTS/ambush around the board.
Yeah, but they're all min squads, and the thing about min squads is that they need support from lots of other min squads in order to be effective. Tooling the Neophytes up as shooting turrets isn't great, partly because shooty Neophytes are a constant source of disappointment, and partly because you now have no tarpit units. Your min squads need those to protect them from damage while they're sitting around waiting to RttS.
You also have no psykers, which means no denying Invisibility, and no Summoning in replacements when your MSUs start dying (which they will from turn 1 onwards), no Mind Control or Mass Hypnosis either (the latter of which means Stealer-spam armies can run right into and through you without stopping).
The more I play around with GSC, the more I'm starting to think static formations just aren't a good idea. They're not resilient enough to control areas of the table reliably and they're not shooty enough to make plinking a viable option. Seems like the only way to play GSC is to just go for the throat with everything right from the get-go and use whatever tricks you have to keep the pressure on your opponent from turn 1 onwards.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'll second that Riptides aren't really your worst problem against Tau. That'd be broadsides, as we discussed earlier in the thread. I'd go as far as to say that you actually want that 190pt model shooting at your 45-55pt units, if at all possible. Yeah, they'll get wiped out, but that's a ton of wasted firepower. If they have intercepting SMS (which they likely will), though...eh. 2 units per turn is a bit more problematic.
The thing about Broadsides over Riptides and Stormsurges is they bring the most useless unit in the GSC army - Neophytes - into the game. Their damage is still negligible, and they're still mainly tarpits rather than threats, but they can pick wounds off here and there in a way they couldn't against the bigger stuff.
Also, every GSC unit that got a '5' result can shoot at the broadsides, drones etc, before interceptor.
The more I play around with GSC, the more I'm starting to think static formations just aren't a good idea. They're not resilient enough to control areas of the table reliably and they're not shooty enough to make plinking a viable option. Seems like the only way to play GSC is to just go for the throat with everything right from the get-go and use whatever tricks you have to keep the pressure on your opponent from turn 1 onwards.
Yep, I also don't see any other way to play it.
I would like to do a few test games against:
- Tau with stormsurge / 3 riptides and broadsides
- Dark angels bikes
- space marine battle company
- Bark-star
- Magnus/Tzeentch Daemon Prince- FMC list
- Eldar
- GSC with genestealers
- GSC with 3x flyrants
I just want to play 3 rounds in 3 different missions/setups just for strategic play. I think I will open a separate topic for this..
I've played a few games against "tournament"-style Eldar and Taudar now (lots of Scatbikes, lots of Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, Scythe-Guard in a Wave Serpent, Riptide Wing) and I think GSC handle them reasonably well. You get a feel for just how much these armies rely on their mobility when you're Cult Ambushing at them - they can, and will, put a severe hurt on you, but with so few units and no way to stop me getting to them, their firepower can run thin very quickly. Plan on losing 4+ units in each of his Shooting phases, get hold of the Wraithknight as soon as possible and start grinding it down (especially if it's one of those stinking Scatman Wraithknights, those things are murder), and try to Emergency Disembark the Scythe-Guard as soon as possible before they can Template your Magus blobs. That seems to work. Also if he brings Vaul's Wrath batteries get rid of those too - don't waste 6s on them though, use your 5s. Autopistols suck, but they'll (usually) kill Guardian crewmen, and even if they don't the unit will still be there threatening to hit him next turn.
I've also played two games against a Grav-spam White Scars Gladius. The first one I tried out Tzeentchy Daemon allies for a lark - it was a complete disaster and I will never speak of it again. The second one was really scrappy; he had Servo-Skulls, and neither of us knew how they affected Cult Ambush so we played it the same way as normal infiltrate (can't go within 12" of them, etc etc), then I deployed badly, got trapped on the table by Drop Pods, Scouting Rhinos, and my own IG allies, and all three of my Patriarchs ended up stuck in combat with his Command Squad for two turns. I lost the primary because his dudes managed to grab the Relic - all the crap in midfield plus RttS denial from auto-regrouping Marines meant I couldn't get enough units over to get it back, but I won the secondary by a couple of VP. Killed most of his tanks in the initial rush, which cost him mobility, then used the couple of CAD Acolytes I had in reserve to sneak Objective VP while his dudes were all stuck in the meatgrinder. If he hadn't rushed me I'd probably have lost the secondary - but I'd also have had a much easier time getting the RttS carousel going with fewer units to lock me on the table, so it's swings and roundabouts. This was one of the games that made me realise how sucky Allies actually are for GSC - you have to remove awesome GSC units to fit in mediocre Missile Launchers and sucky Guardsmen, and if that wasn't bad enough they can trap you on the table. Blech.
I've played precisely one game against the Tau and I can't draw any conclusions from it because it was... unique. Mentioning it here though because it was pretty funny, and it demonstrates what a pain the Stormsurges can be. He rolled the "d3 units infiltrate" Warlord Trait, but I won the roll-off for Infiltrators and just covered the table with dudes so he had to reserve his Stormsurge, two Riptides, his Culexus and his commander. I had seven units charging on turn one, he didn't have enough stuff on the table to stop it hitting him, and everything he deployed got rolled up and put back in the box - aside from a unit of Fire Warriors who lost a dude to Autopistols and ran away, but stayed on the table just long enough to prevent a turn one tabling. That let the Stormsurge and Commander arrive on turn 2. I Mind Controlled the Surge, used it to blow up the Commander, and the rest of the game was just me picking off everything else as it arrived while the Surge wandered around the table, blowing up my MSUs and Stomping out anything that charged it. I think it ended 17-8 or something like that, and I picked up most of those VP in the first turn. Fairly sure if he'd just deployed normally I'd have had a much more difficult time of it. One thing I did take away from this game is that Supporting Fire can be beaten the same way normal Overwatch can - by charging in with cruddy units first and bringing the big guns in later in the phase - but you need a lot more units than normal, and you need to be very careful about how you go about it. You also need to practise it, because when I did it it took me fifteen minutes to figure out what to charge where to shut it down as efficiently as possible.
Can't speak to the other armies - I'm still the only GSC player for miles around so I haven't seen Stealer-spam yet, but I'm thinking Neophyte bubble-wrap, Summons and Mass Hypnosis would be the way to go. Flying Circus Daemons could probably be chased off the table, I guess. Not sure how you'd handle the Barkstar, although again I think leading with Autoguns then following up with Mass Hypnosis, Summons, and massed assaults would probably get rid of it. If it's just one big unit you could probably leave some CAD dudes in reserve and use them to grab VP or something.
I played a list like this just. Magnus, LoC w/ Robes, Exalted Sorc w/ Scarab Occult, 1k Sons unit, Tzangors, 2x11 Pinks, Blue Scribes.
I was running a min Brood cycle (whip metas), 2x Sub uprisings with 3x5 metas and 2x5 acos, 1 saw each, then a Magos w/ Crouchling, Patriarch and 5 genes in the Formation. And then a CAD of 2 more Magi, and 2x10 Neophytes.
We were playing at my local GW, so only on a 4x4, and mission was bases. I gave him first turn and only infiltrated my Uprisings into ruins. He summoned a unit of screamers and a herald, killed one uprising unit, and pinned another 4 with his FMCs so they couldn't leave the board. That was more of a threat than his shooting with Shrouding and ruins - fully half my uprising units were useless t1 and largely t2 due to that. I returned everything I could in my turn.
Turn 2 he summoned another herald summoned some horrors, but dealt with another 2 units or so. I brought on everything but one Brood cycle acolyte unit, getting 3 6s. I also summoned two units of acos/metas, with another 6 for 4 in total. I flung everything but my warlord's unit (who popped up in the back to give fearless to two GtG units so they could return) into his deployment zone, and proceeded to get stuck into the Tzangors, 1k sons, and horrors. We won some, lost some, but I got rid of both heralds and didn't fail any LD checks (got the Psy power that let everything use my Warlord's, which was very handy). Whittled things down.
Turn 3 his fliers turned around and came back upfield, plinking away at squads but not really managing to do anything too notable. Magnus charged and killed a unit of summoned metas, creating a spawn. He summoned another herald and an exalted flamer, which mishapped and I placed out of the way. I got 6s on all 4 units I had coming on this turn, though didn't manage to summon anything else. Piled them mostly into the backfield combats, though a few went to tie up his termies and his summoned horrors in midfield. I ended up wiping out his 1k sons unit, Tzangors, and both pink horror units (and making quite a dent in the blues) for everything on the backfield, but his termies won VS 2 units and a few more were locked midfield.
Turn 4 we realised we only had time to play this turn, so decided it would end at the bottom of the turn. Magnus scooted back over to my objective, but I pulled my Warlord's CAD unit onto it to steal it at the end of the game. The other one was contested by tons of my units and a couple of his (I'd almost gotten rid of the horrors by this point). Sadly my other CAD unit had been blasted away by Magnus' 5 powers, so I had no more obse and couldn't steal his base back. So it ended 4-2 to me, with 1 obj and linebreaker VS first blood and linebreaker. I don't think it would've been much different had it gone on longer - I would've cleaned up his back lines so would likely be claiming it in a turn or two.
Anyway, obviously this wasn't full flying circus but should give an idea of how we would do. The 4x4 really hurt as it was much easier for him to pin units in place - but in future I will also be taking an aegis and using probably my Brood Cycle neophytes to bubble wrap the uprisings t1. It also showed just how important obsec is - I wish I had had a few more units of it, then my victory would've been decisive! Obviously he didn't summon a huge deal, but again without obsec I am unsure how much of a difference it would've made - I woulda had a ton more units left to deal with the summoned units too. But ignoring the fliers does seem the way to go.
I've played precisely one game against the Tau and I can't draw any conclusions from it because it was... unique. Mentioning it here though because it was pretty funny, and it demonstrates what a pain the Stormsurges can be. He rolled the "d3 units infiltrate" Warlord Trait, but I won the roll-off for Infiltrators and just covered the table with dudes so he had to reserve his Stormsurge, two Riptides, his Culexus and his commander. .
I'm pretty sure that infiltrate is every other. So unless your first unit took up the whole board then this wouldn't work.
Also, this makes sense because what you were saying about not being scared of riptides makes sense!
"Only BS 3" riptides with 8 missiles should still wipe a 5 man squad in one round of shooting.
Again, it comes down to the scenarios I put on my other comment.
The scenarios
Scenario 1: no bubble wrap, GSC going first- lose one unit to overwatch- kill riptides (Total of 1)
Scenario 2: bubble wrap, GSC going first - lose one unit to overwatch- kill bubble wrap-hail fire, smart missile overload- lose 6 units- lose 1 unit to overwatch- hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (Total of 8 units)
Scenario 3: no bubble wrap-GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (Lose 10 units)
Scenario 4: bubble wrap - GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose one unit to overwatch and kill bubble wrap, lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides (At least 11)
And this makes sense as it was what happened at Renegade GT. Taunar, riptide wing, and pirranah wing vs. Full bore, 150 model msu insurrection.
Tau had first turned, GSC set everything up like they were going first, 9 units rolled 6s. GSC seized the initiative! They murdered most of the bubble wrap, managed to tie up the Tau-naur.
Then the riptides hail fired and what was left bubble wrap managed to pretty much wipe everything nearby out and the Tau guy won. Granted he's the captain of Team America but his opponent was no slouch either.
I'm pretty sure riptides plus bubble wrap is a pretty nightmare match up for GSC. This is why I was thinking of taking armored company for beast hunter shells (small blast, BS 4, twin-linked, ap 2, strength 8, instant death).
GSC really need a way shoot all the bubble wrap but if you weaken your gsc side too much then you can't take advantage of removing the bubble wrap.
I think the best strategy may end up being staying out of smart missile range. Give the opponent a couple turns to come out of their castle and get confident then get in their face.
vercingatorix wrote: I'm pretty sure that infiltrate is every other. So unless your first unit took up the whole board then this wouldn't work.
You're right. Oh well. Not that it matters, because he's not going to be deploying by Infiltrate normally anyway so I still can't draw any conclusions from the game.
I'm pretty sure riptides plus bubble wrap is a pretty nightmare match up for GSC. This is why I was thinking of taking armored company for beast hunter shells (small blast, BS 4, twin-linked, ap 2, strength 8, instant death).
I don't think tanks are the answer - the issue is being shot off the table, not killing stuff, and your tanks don't solve that problem. If anything they make it worse - Hailfire Riptides will shut down a Russ pretty sharpish, they present juicy targets for Markerlight D-missiles since the lights aren't needed for Ignores Cover. You're also spending a lot of points on things that aren't GSC, which is a bad idea against an army that can blow up so many of your dudes every turn.
I think this is a problem to be solved with tactics rather than army changes. I can't help but notice that in all of your scenarios, you're charging the bubblewrap. That's what your opponent wants you to do, so maybe don't do that. Instead of giving him extra shots at your dudes, lead with your psykers - Mind Control the Super-Tuna, Summon in some bubblewrap of your own (with free Seismic Cannons), Hypnotise stuff that's going to hurt you, etc etc. Tau have no answer to that outside of a Culexus or Sisters of Silence, either of which can be dealt with. If there's a way to get a charge in then maybe give it a shot, but perhaps just Infiltrate normally with the majority of your army instead of Ambushing it - although that makes your psykers a bit more of a target so it might not be a good idea. Maybe Infiltrate the psykers and Ambush with everything else?
I think the best strategy may end up being staying out of smart missile range. Give the opponent a couple turns to come out of their castle and get confident then get in their face.
Cede the initiative to an army that can jump around all over the place? I don't think so, especially if you're only doing so to try and outrange the SMS. You can't avoid the SMS. They can chase you down, and you need to get into CC to hurt the Riptides. It's not an option. What was the max first turn loss you said? 11 units? Great - that's 1/3 of my army, and it's assuming I'm charging the bubblewrap, which I'm not going to do.
I can see ways around this, to be honest, but it all bears testing.
there is more then one way to beat riptides but it depends on some factors. in order,
1. mission
2, who is going first
3 do they have bubble wrap
mission is what you always want to play for as that is how you win the game so make sure you read it and know what you need to do
if you are going first and they do not have bubble wrap then go for the assault but only if it will also help you win the mission
if you are going second then you either deploy out of los and far enough back to mitigate losses and let them make a mistake. utilize terrain and tactics
if you are going first and they have bubble wrap, depending on what it is sometimes you can get through it with shooting with a "5" on CA with some neophytes. keep in mind it is not amazing shooting so it wont do much. psychic powers like multiple shrieks can make hols and dont forget the "1" power can make a unit move D6 closer and give you fleet to move past the holes you opened in psychic and shooting phase to charge what is behind. summoning units of GSC will also help by just giving them more threats on the board to overwhelm them.
against riptides you have to charge multiple units into them otherwise the overwatch will kill most or all and you wont do enough damage but as long as you win combat or tie them up by being fearless you will win eventually as they wont be able to shoot and you can bring in more units to mop up.
- Commander suit
- 2 suits with flamers
- 3 broadsides
- 1 single broadside
- 1 single broadside
- 3 riptides formation with heavy burst cannon (mont'ka)
- single riptide with heavy burst cannon
- stormsurge
- 4x4 marker drones formation (mont'ka)
I was curious if it was possible to take a round of shooting (tau went first) and still break thru and kill them.
(proxie tau and sum extra pokerchips instead of GSC models I still need)
It was close. I took out 6 markerlight drones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and thats very good because the cannot use them anymore to increase the Bskill. But in the end it was to much. I used 2 units drones to move forward to block a flank and made it impossible for the GSC to charge from that side. On the other side the flamer-suits where capable to help with 'overwatch' and only a few models could get in close combat and next round the stormsurge simply 'stomp' them to death. Next time I'am going to put my Patriarch up front to use his 3+ save against smart missile's and 'look out sir' everything else.
Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.
Also did sum tests against Bark star. If GSC go first then its pretty much done. You shoot down a lot of dogs an after that you can attack the Bark star with 4+ units from 4 sides so that it is impossible for them to hit and run with such a big blob without getting within 1 inch. Next turn The might be invisible but it the will keep on fighting the whole battle when all the other GSC units lock in. If the Bark star got first turn then You just need to use bubble wrap to keep them in their place. The might use cleansing flame (once) but then the magus could block this with 8 +d6 warp dice on a 4+ (psyker + adamantium will) Next round the bubble wrap is dead and you get to attack the bark star from 4 angles and keep it in their place.
its also possible to create bottle necks, deploy 1/2 units outside 6 inch, and deploy the unit that attacks near the opening in a conga line.
1/2 units that deployed outside 6 inch move forward, and when the other GSC unit attacks its not possible for the barkstar to get more models in combat. Conga line in the back counts as being in close combat and the Barkstar cannot hit and run in that direction without getting within 1 inch.
shogun wrote: Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.
The Interceptor thing isn't too bad, I agree - better still it cuts down the amount of shooting you face during the next Shooting phase, and you get to Summon between your movement and his Shooting.
I also think leading with psykers and deploying your whole army will work, even if you go second, but I need to test it out against a Tau list with bubblewrap - and the 7" strength D blasts from the Super-Tuna.
shogun wrote: Against tau you need to remove your units first turn and deploy them second turn. You can take out a few markerdrones with free deployment shooting (cult ambush result '5') and Interceptor shooting is not that scary compared to regular shooting.
The Interceptor thing isn't too bad, I agree - better still it cuts down the amount of shooting you face during the next Shooting phase, and you get to Summon between your movement and his Shooting.
I also think leading with psykers and deploying your whole army will work, even if you go second, but I need to test it out against a Tau list with bubblewrap - and the 7" strength D blasts from the Super-Tuna.
If you take down a few marker drones its possible to create a situation that the tau player got to make a choice. He can either use his markerlights to ignore cover or increase the bskill but not always both. Next time my CAD partriarch warlord is going to (re)roll on strategic because apart from '-1 reserves for enemy' all other results are good to have. Night fight/stealth in combination with first turn shrouded + possible 'intervening models' and maybe 'go to ground' ouside patriarch reach, could really help against all non-ignore cover shooting. My Icon 6+ feel no pain was also helpfull against all S5 shooting.
But the 3 riptides that could fire double shots once a game really hurt, damn...
shogun wrote: But the 3 riptides that could fire double shots once a game really hurt, damn...
Hailfire (4x shots from the main gun) is only once a game, but the Ripple Fire (2x shots from everything) is every turn - and it lasts the whole turn, so if you Mind Control him you get to use it too.
The other thing is, if he's deploying behind bubblewrap he'll have all of his units bunched up, so you can Mind Control the Tuna and drop a 7" Strength D blast on his bubblewrap to get rid of it, and maybe a couple of Suits too with the rest of the weapons. If he's read Broodmind he'll probably put the Tuna in the middle of everything so you can't use the D blast for that, but it has a tonne of other weapons for you to fire. Use that to get rid of the wrap and wait until turn 2 to make charges. If he's killed a tonne of your units then maybe try to drop a Summons to bring the numbers back up.
I'm thinking your priority for powers will be Mind Control >= Summons > Mass Hypnosis until you've got a run at his Suits, then Summons > Mass Hypnosis > Mind Control. Worst case scenario you roll 1 & 3 five times, then 1, 3 & 4 on the Crouchling - then you Mass Hypnotise the Riptides down to BS1 and use Mental Onslaught to strip wounds off his Super-Heavy. Maybe hold back your CAD units to grab points while he's sitting in the corner trying to rinse you.
Overall I'm thinking the way to approach this is to put a ton of stuff on the table. Use your psychic powers to spoil his shooting, give him 25+ units to chew through at 3"-18" and see if he's up to the task.
shogun wrote: But the 3 riptides that could fire double shots once a game really hurt, damn...
Hailfire (4x shots from the main gun) is only once a game, but the Ripple Fire (2x shots from everything) is every turn - and it lasts the whole turn, so if you Mind Control him you get to use it too.
You mean: ripple fire nova power doubles the shooting from the sms, fusion and plasma gun and Hailfire: all shooting (even ripple fire shots) doubled once a game. So mind controlling a riptide with ripple fire activated will get you 8 heavy burst cannon shots and 2x4 twin linked sms-shots.
You just have to drop in second turn and then those riptides have to choose if they're going to intercept or saving up they're shooting for the next turn(with hailfire). But not using intercept on a full GSC army that deploys in front of your nose with a couple of '6' results and still capable of using psychic powers is a gamble. Bubble wrap is also not much of an issue if the GSC can simply remove it the second turn and start assaulting the "empty" intercepting units turn 3.
Mind control is usefull but summon is the real winner in this scenario.. +20 neophytes...yes please!
shogun wrote: You mean: ripple fire nova power doubles the shooting from the sms, fusion and plasma gun and Hailfire: all shooting (even ripple fire shots) doubled once a game. So mind controlling a riptide with ripple fire activated will get you 8 heavy burst cannon shots and 2x4 twin linked sms-shots.
That's it - Hailfire from the Formation plus MC plus two weapons plus Ripplefire = 4 shots from the main gun and two from the SMS. That's once per game. Ripple Fire is 2 shots from anything it's carrying, and that's every turn (but lasts the whole turn). Nova makes the main gun better but he won't use that unless you bring tanks.
Mind control is usefull but summon is the real winner in this scenario.. +20 neophytes...yes please!
I disagree, at least early on. The Neophytes just aren't a threat to T6+ Suits - Seismics are AP3, Mining Lasers are single shot, GLs wound on 4+ - and if his bubblewrap is a Piranha Wing then they're not much of a threat to that, either. That's a unit he can ignore.
Thinking on, I reckon Mass Hypnosis would probably be the best power to use here. Mind Control rolls to hit, so it's not reliable enough on BS4 dudes, Summons isn't guaranteed to drop the unit where you need it, Psionic Blast is AP3 which sucks, Mental Onslaught from the Patriarch may work but is still a punt - but Mass Hypnosis he has no defence against other than a Culexus, and even one hit of it will make any Suit hit on 5+. If he has a Culexus sitting in the blob then Summoning might be a better idea.
shogun wrote: You mean: ripple fire nova power doubles the shooting from the sms, fusion and plasma gun and Hailfire: all shooting (even ripple fire shots) doubled once a game. So mind controlling a riptide with ripple fire activated will get you 8 heavy burst cannon shots and 2x4 twin linked sms-shots.
That's it - Hailfire from the Formation plus MC plus two weapons plus Ripplefire = 4 shots from the main gun and two from the SMS. That's once per game. Ripple Fire is 2 shots from anything it's carrying, and that's every turn (but lasts the whole turn). Nova makes the main gun better but he won't use that unless you bring tanks.
"4 shots form the main gun and two from the sms" ehhh no, it's the other way around.
"Ripple Fire is 2 shots from anything it's carrying" Ripple fire is only double sms, fusion and plasma shots and not the main gun (Heavy burst cannon).
I think you mean the same but I cannot follow your explanation.
Mind control is usefull but summon is the real winner in this scenario.. +20 neophytes...yes please!
I disagree, at least early on. The Neophytes just aren't a threat to T6+ Suits - Seismics are AP3, Mining Lasers are single shot, GLs wound on 4+ - and if his bubblewrap is a Piranha Wing then they're not much of a threat to that, either. That's a unit he can ignore.
Thinking on, I reckon Mass Hypnosis would probably be the best power to use here. Mind Control rolls to hit, so it's not reliable enough on BS4 dudes, Summons isn't guaranteed to drop the unit where you need it, Psionic Blast is AP3 which sucks, Mental Onslaught from the Patriarch may work but is still a punt - but Mass Hypnosis he has no defence against other than a Culexus, and even one hit of it will make any Suit hit on 5+. If he has a Culexus sitting in the blob then Summoning might be a better idea.
deployment: Tau go first and GSC deploys as far away as possible and/or out of sight
first turn: tau shoots a bit if possible and GSC go into the shadows with only one unit on the field.
second turn: Tau can only shoot one unit if possible and GSC come in with cult ambush. Tau use interceptor....
From that point on the GSC need to be in close combat asap and the best way to do this, is to summon extra units at round 2. Tau interceptor will probably kill the units that got a '6' result so GSC got to move in at round 3.
vercingatorix wrote: And this makes sense as it was what happened at Renegade GT. Taunar, riptide wing, and pirranah wing vs. Full bore, 150 model msu insurrection.
Tau had first turned, GSC set everything up like they were going first, 9 units rolled 6s. GSC seized the initiative! They murdered most of the bubble wrap, managed to tie up the Tau-naur.
Then the riptides hail fired and what was left bubble wrap managed to pretty much wipe everything nearby out and the Tau guy won. Granted he's the captain of Team America but his opponent was no slouch either.
Can't find a batrep for this at all, but I'd like to see one. Got a link?
shogun wrote: "4 shots form the main gun and two from the sms" ehhh no, it's the other way around.
"Ripple Fire is 2 shots from anything it's carrying" Ripple fire is only double sms, fusion and plasma shots and not the main gun (Heavy burst cannon).
I think you mean the same but I cannot follow your explanation.
The Riptide Wing Formation rule (Hailfire) means the Suit can shoot twice, so 2x8 shots from the burst and 2x4 from the SMS. If you use it and also Ripple Fire you get 4x8 from burst cannon and 2x4 from SMS. Once per game.
The Nova Reactor rule of the Riptide itself can either give 3++, better Burst cannon profile (Heavy 12, Rending etc), or allows one weapon to fire twice - this is every turn. This is the one you can use with Mind Control.
deployment: Tau go first and GSC deploys as far away as possible and/or out of sight
first turn: tau shoots a bit if possible and GSC go into the shadows with only one unit on the field.
second turn: Tau can only shoot one unit if possible and GSC come in with cult ambush. Tau use interceptor....
From that point on the GSC need to be in close combat asap and the best way to do this, is to summon extra units at round 2. Tau interceptor will probably kill the units that got a '6' result so GSC got to move in at round 3.
But if the Tau reach that one unit, i.e. with with their Super-heavy's 72" guns, it will die, and you're screwed.
What I'm thinking is:
Deployment: Tau go first and deploy in a blob behind wrapping. GSC deploy second; Infiltrate psykers in units 18" away from the Wrap, Ambush everything else, put 3s, 4s and 5s in midfield next to the psykers (SubUp units in front of Cycle units), leave any 6s 10" away from wrap, deploy CADs normally.
Turn 1: Tau either shoots charging units or psykers. If he kills chargers the wrap won't move; if he kills psykers the wrap moves out to lock chargers on the table with Suits behind to keep up Supporting Fire. Then you RttS with any CADs and any units that get a 1 or a 2; psykers and second line move in to Hypnotise Suits and maybe Mind Control the Super-Heavy. Any 6s that survive push up towards the wrap. Don't charge it - just leave them sitting in front of it.
From there the game plays out depending on what the Tau do, but anything that survives into your second turn can now charge and is now on top of the Tau blob. I agree GSC need to get into close combat as fast as possible to survive this game and win, but I think Cult Ambush is too unreliable to achieve that en masse.
As a Tau player, I can tell you that I would almost certainly not start in a blob or castle vs GSC. Rather, I'd probably spread out, loosely bubble-wrapping as necessary, and deny you useful deployment options in my DZ and then run away using JSJ during my turn. That way, if you manage to get some lucky 6's, you're still likely stuck eating through a few trash units before getting to the meat, and I'd be able to regroup and reposition as necessary without being hemmed in by your other infiltrating/ambushing forces. My game plan would be to push midfield and maintain intercepting LOS to objectives while occupying objectives with something beefy. If that happens, it's basically game over for GSC. You've got to hope you can take out a crucial chunk of big guns early - perhaps by Stormsurge mind control or lots of ambushing nastiness.
Granted, my Tau armies tend to be really mobile. I don't know if that's the norm, but I'm typically flying large-ish suits all nimbly-bimbly from tree to tree throughout the game. Blob Tau died with the 6th ed. codex for me.
@BBAP, sorry mate your way wrong on those tau rules. You can literally only ripple fire the secondary weapons like the SMS, plasma or fusion. Thats it. You can't ripple fire the main weapons. hail fire on the other hand lets it get a second round of shooting, meaning it can pick new targets, you son't actually fire all the shots at once, you resolve one round of fire from all systems then get another round of shooting. This subtle difference makes a big impact in game since they need more marker lights, and can also shoot a unit out of range or line of sight before getting another round of shooting.
deployment: Tau go first and GSC deploys as far away as possible and/or out of sight
first turn: tau shoots a bit if possible and GSC go into the shadows with only one unit on the field.
second turn: Tau can only shoot one unit if possible and GSC come in with cult ambush. Tau use interceptor....
From that point on the GSC need to be in close combat asap and the best way to do this, is to summon extra units at round 2. Tau interceptor will probably kill the units that got a '6' result so GSC got to move in at round 3.
But if the Tau reach that one unit, i.e. with with their Super-heavy's 72" guns, it will die, and you're screwed.
No, because this happens at the beginning of round 2 and you only lose the game if you got no units on the table at the end of a game turn, not player turn. This will not happen because the GSC come in with cult ambush in round two.
Deployment: Tau go first and deploy in a blob behind wrapping. GSC deploy second; Infiltrate psykers in units 18" away from the Wrap, Ambush everything else, put 3s, 4s and 5s in midfield next to the psykers (SubUp units in front of Cycle units), leave any 6s 10" away from wrap, deploy CADs normally.
Turn 1: Tau either shoots charging units or psykers. If he kills chargers the wrap won't move; if he kills psykers the wrap moves out to lock chargers on the table with Suits behind to keep up Supporting Fire. Then you RttS with any CADs and any units that get a 1 or a 2; psykers and second line move in to Hypnotise Suits and maybe Mind Control the Super-Heavy. Any 6s that survive push up towards the wrap. Don't charge it - just leave them sitting in front of it.
From there the game plays out depending on what the Tau do, but anything that survives into your second turn can now charge and is now on top of the Tau blob. I agree GSC need to get into close combat as fast as possible to survive this game and win, but I think Cult Ambush is too unreliable to achieve that en masse.
I don't think this will work. Tau shooting in combination with overwatch and bubble wrap will be to much. You just simply deploy midfield and take a round of full tau shooting and expect their be enough to survive and take them down? Acolytes and metamorphs also got no fleet so with overwatch shooting its hard to reach any tau units from that position.
Interceptor fire is not as good as normal Tau shooting and even if the kill all GSC units that got a '6' result, the cannot fire next round, so all other GSC units can make a run move and lock the tau in to make sure the cannot get away and prepare for assault next turn. You only should use mind control instead of summoning if it really pays off. For example: removing 2 broadsides is nice but its better to get 20 neophytes to lock tau in close combat next round.
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MilkmanAl wrote: As a Tau player, I can tell you that I would almost certainly not start in a blob or castle vs GSC. Rather, I'd probably spread out, loosely bubble-wrapping as necessary, and deny you useful deployment options in my DZ and then run away using JSJ during my turn. That way, if you manage to get some lucky 6's, you're still likely stuck eating through a few trash units before getting to the meat, and I'd be able to regroup and reposition as necessary without being hemmed in by your other infiltrating/ambushing forces. My game plan would be to push midfield and maintain intercepting LOS to objectives while occupying objectives with something beefy. If that happens, it's basically game over for GSC. You've got to hope you can take out a crucial chunk of big guns early - perhaps by Stormsurge mind control or lots of ambushing nastiness.
Granted, my Tau armies tend to be really mobile. I don't know if that's the norm, but I'm typically flying large-ish suits all nimbly-bimbly from tree to tree throughout the game. Blob Tau died with the 6th ed. codex for me.
I think you underestimate GSC flexibility. Tau armies usually don't got enough models to deny a GSC-army useful deployment options. If you spread out then GSC can choose a flank and if the break thru then the tau army it starts to crumble.
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Red Corsair wrote: @BBAP, sorry mate your way wrong on those tau rules. You can literally only ripple fire the secondary weapons like the SMS, plasma or fusion. Thats it. You can't ripple fire the main weapons. hail fire on the other hand lets it get a second round of shooting, meaning it can pick new targets, you son't actually fire all the shots at once, you resolve one round of fire from all systems then get another round of shooting. This subtle difference makes a big impact in game since they need more marker lights, and can also shoot a unit out of range or line of sight before getting another round of shooting.
MilkmanAl wrote:As a Tau player, I can tell you that I would almost certainly not start in a blob or castle vs GSC. Rather, I'd probably spread out, loosely bubble-wrapping as necessary, and deny you useful deployment options in my DZ and then run away using JSJ during my turn.
As a Genestealer Cults player that's precisely what I want to see, though. You can't run from Ambushers or Summons, and unless you're hugging the board edge I can't see how you'd wrap individual Suits tightly enough to stop me landing charges. If you're using Drones I can clear a couple of them out with shooting then multi into the suit, and if you're using vehicles then they need to be very tight or I can charge right past them.
Having your dudes in a group means they can support each other - when Eldar do it it forces me to either have a lot of units ready to charge, so I can kill the whole blob before his Overwatch shreds me, or it forces me to throw away a couple of units to kill one of his - anything that unlocks will get blown up next turn. Seems to me like that would make even more sense for a Tau player with Supporting Fire - if you have two Riptides within 6" of each other I need 3 units to do any work; two to beat the Overwatch, and one to do the killing.
You've got to hope you can take out a crucial chunk of big guns early - perhaps by Stormsurge mind control or lots of ambushing nastiness.
I don't necessarily think you do. Land a single Mass Hypnosis on almost any Tau unit and it's hitting on 5s - it's still a lot of shots, and every hit is still a wound, but that's a lot less wounds than you'd get otherwise. ITC allows for a maximum of 6 GSC psykers, so that's six of your Suits hitting on 5s with everything until my next psychic phase.
Red Corsair wrote:@BBAP, sorry mate your way wrong on those tau rules. You can literally only ripple fire the secondary weapons like the SMS, plasma or fusion. Thats it
So they get LESS shots than I thought? That's what I like to hear! lol
A lot of tau players around here ally in coteaz with servo skulls. I would really really like, just one time, to kill coteaz before the game even starts to prevent a re-roll of the seize.
CAD:
- Commander with sum upgrades
- suit with flamer
- suit with flamer
- stormsurge
formation:
2x broadsides
1x broadside
riptide with sms and heavy burst cannon
formation:
3 riptides with sms and burst cannon
formation:
4x4 marker drones
Tau (proxie) deploys and uses drones as bubble wrap:
Only one drone can reach my big acolyte+primus unit but i don't care because they're behind the aegis defence line and you need two markerlight-hits for ignore cover.
Big acolyte unit deploys in the corner:
Other units from my subterean uprising deploy at the other corner behind sum cover and outside sms reach, the rest of my army I keep in reserve.
Tau moves forward and can only shoot with the Stormsurge at the big acolyte unit and I don't care. Its got no ignore cover so I got a 2+ coversave.
Then all subterean uprising units go into the shadows (+d6 replenish casualties for the big acolyte unit) except one unit of 5 acolytes.
Tau could shoot down 5 acolytes with sms but who cares.
Then the GSC come in (using pokerchips at this moment):
It's save to assume that the Tau army can shoot down all units that got a '6' result on the cult ambush table, so if you got the choice (subterean uprising double or triple d6 for cult ambush) pick '5' because you need to take down as much drones as possible (also maybe first blood). You're not going to assault anything your just preparing for the next turn. Don't be afraid to put your patriarch at the front. He can use his 3+ save and take the first two wounds before he is going to use his 'look out sir'. After interceptor shots you can do your psychic powers and run forward and/or shoot down more drones.
What's next is going to be difficult. Tau is going to move back and prepare for next turn shooting and you need to be able to reach them with sum units in close combat. If you don't your done.
vercingatorix wrote: A lot of tau players around here ally in coteaz with servo skulls. I would really really like, just one time, to kill coteaz before the game even starts to prevent a re-roll of the seize.
We don't know yet how the servoskull rules are going to react with cult ambush infiltrate but you can still play it the way I described and let your units come in second turn from ongoing reserves. Also realise that coteaz + inquisitor cost about the same as 2 broadsides and most times the also pick a unit acolytes to go with them. I rather face them instead of more tau units.
As a Genestealer Cults player that's precisely what I want to see, though. You can't run from Ambushers or Summons, and unless you're hugging the board edge I can't see how you'd wrap individual Suits tightly enough to stop me landing charges. If you're using Drones I can clear a couple of them out with shooting then multi into the suit, and if you're using vehicles then they need to be very tight or I can charge right past them.
Having your dudes in a group means they can support each other - when Eldar do it it forces me to either have a lot of units ready to charge, so I can kill the whole blob before his Overwatch shreds me, or it forces me to throw away a couple of units to kill one of his - anything that unlocks will get blown up next turn. Seems to me like that would make even more sense for a Tau player with Supporting Fire - if you have two Riptides within 6" of each other I need 3 units to do any work; two to beat the Overwatch, and one to do the killing.
So perhaps my use of "spread out" needs a little qualification. As Tau, I wouldn't recommend trying to use your entire DZ since that clearly compromises your ability to use Supporting Fire and leaves you more open to charges. What I mean is that I would space appropriately so that there's maybe 5-7" between units and board edges to prevent deployment of the ambush 6s. I guess you could call it a really loose castle, if you like.
The picture above is exactly how I would not deploy. Obviously, you get yourself surrounded pretty easily and have nowhere to collapse your forces to. There's no way to fall back and re-prepare to get ambushed again. You're kind of stuck with what you have.
vercingatorix wrote: A lot of tau players around here ally in coteaz with servo skulls. I would really really like, just one time, to kill coteaz before the game even starts to prevent a re-roll of the seize.
Coteaz can't take Servo Skulls as far as I know, not even using the old Codex, so that's a minimum of two Detachments and 128pts of your army gone all for an "advantage" that sucks against most any other army out there, and isn't even a huge problem for GSC to deal with - see what shogun said above. The absolute best I can see you doing here is forcing the SubUp closer to your dudes, which might be a good idea if you can wipe them all out - but do that, and I can Infiltrate my psykers on top of you instead of putting them in reserve.
You might want him dead pre-deployment. Me, I'd rather him and his pal stick around to force One Eye Open tests on any Tau units that go near them.
MilkmanAl wrote: The picture above is exactly how I would not deploy. Obviously, you get yourself surrounded pretty easily and have nowhere to collapse your forces to. There's no way to fall back and re-prepare to get ambushed again. You're kind of stuck with what you have.
Problem is no matter how far you space your Suits out you're going to get surrounded if they're moving in a blob. Which they will be, because once the blob starts spreading out charging stuff becomes a less daunting prospect. I'm not sure flitting around is a good idea aginst Cult Ambush either. A couple of inopportune JSJ rolls might leave an opening that allows half your army to be rolled up, and GSC are more mible than you anyway. To me, it seems the best way to deal with Tau is to deny them as many "free" shots at my dudes as possible - and in turn, I'd think the best way to deal with GSC as Tau is to make sure every free shot you do get hurts as much as possible. Keep the blob together, make him pay for Cult Ambush and assaults, and just the blob along collecting objectives and kills.
So, just out of curiousity, if I were to be running a list at 1000 pts, how does this make you guys feel? Trying to get something together for running with friends. 1 item on the list is not like the others, but that is because it was the only thing I could think of.
1000pt List: Cult Insurrection
The First Curse w/ ML2 & 2 familiar
4x Shadow Skulkers w/ 10 models
1x Brood Brothers (1x Sentinel)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So, just out of curiousity, if I were to be running a list at 1000 pts, how does this make you guys feel? Trying to get something together for running with friends. 1 item on the list is not like the others, but that is because it was the only thing I could think of.
1000pt List: Cult Insurrection
The First Curse w/ ML2 & 2 familiar
4x Shadow Skulkers w/ 10 models
1x Brood Brothers (1x Sentinel)
If you're going to run a Cult Insirrection you will need a Core choice.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So, just out of curiousity, if I were to be running a list at 1000 pts, how does this make you guys feel? Trying to get something together for running with friends. 1 item on the list is not like the others, but that is because it was the only thing I could think of.
1000pt List: Cult Insurrection
The First Curse w/ ML2 & 2 familiar
4x Shadow Skulkers w/ 10 models
1x Brood Brothers (1x Sentinel)
If you're going to run a Cult Insirrection you will need a Core choice.
I was fairly sleepy when I came up with this, but I don't think I was planning on the decurion. I think I was just fielding formations. That being said... I wonder if I could fit in a decent neophyte cavalcade.
vercingatorix wrote: And this makes sense as it was what happened at Renegade GT. Taunar, riptide wing, and pirranah wing vs. Full bore, 150 model msu insurrection.
Tau had first turned, GSC set everything up like they were going first, 9 units rolled 6s. GSC seized the initiative! They murdered most of the bubble wrap, managed to tie up the Tau-naur.
Then the riptides hail fired and what was left bubble wrap managed to pretty much wipe everything nearby out and the Tau guy won. Granted he's the captain of Team America but his opponent was no slouch either.
Can't find a batrep for this at all, but I'd like to see one. Got a link?
I am building my first list at 1500 points, and one squad I want to include in my brood cycle is:
Iconward + Icon of Cult Ascendant
9 Metamorphs + 9x claws + cult icon
Dedicated Transport Goliath
I think that is a legal unit I just wanted to verify, can I start the iconward in the transport with the metamorphs and outflank? Am I allowed to use a cult icon and iconward in the same squad? And do I get the Familial Pride bonus if the goliath pulls up next to an enemy and my guys charge out?
Second question is assuming all this is legal, which I think it should be, is it a good idea? On paper it looks like about 50 str 7 attacks with rending and high weapon skill on a charge.
I think that is a legal unit I just wanted to verify, can I start the iconward in the transport with the metamorphs and outflank?
I believe you could outflank if taken as part of the Cult Uprising detachment, but you cannot if taken as just the Brood Cycle. Not quite sure why you would want to outflank over Cult Ambush with such a unit though. I'd probably leave outflanking to Goliath Trucks taken as part of a Demolition Claw since they get Tank Hunter on their autocannons.
Morris782 wrote: Am I allowed to use a cult icon and iconward in the same squad?
The Iconward is an HQ independent character, so yes...
And do I get the Familial Pride bonus if the goliath pulls up next to an enemy and my guys charge out?
Reading the rule I don't see why not (just says a friendly model from the formation), though the Goliath itself doesn't gain any WS from having models in proximity.
1_The Cult Ambush rules says: ''... can choose to roll on the Cult ambush table... instead of arriving from reserves normally'' The issue about rolling 3+ to arrive is in a chapter called ''Arriving from reserves'' of the rulebook; DOES IT MEAN THAT I CAN COME FROM RESERVES AUTOMATICALLY WHEN RESERVES ARE ALLOWED (so turn 2 normally) without rolling the dices?
2_ I'm asking because 1d4chan says: ''...The rule very specifically says that Cult Ambushing is done instead of deploying or coming out of reserves normally, though they arrive as described for other reserves unless otherwise specified. This allows the Cults to effectively NULL DEPLOY, as they come in like reserves on the controlling player's FIRST TURN instead of normal deployment. '' but it doesnt seem right to me.
3_If I infiltrate and roll a 5, can I shoot in the deployment or moving turn? Otherwise I cant shoot twice I guess.
4_ What do you do when you get the second turn? Deploying in the face of ur opponent seems a suicide to me, what's ur tactic?
I believe you could outflank if taken as part of the Cult Uprising detachment, but you cannot if taken as just the Brood Cycle. Not quite sure why you would want to outflank over Cult Ambush with such a unit though. I'd probably leave outflanking to Goliath Trucks taken as part of a Demolition Claw since they get Tank Hunter on their autocannons.
Yes I am running Cult Insurrection detachment. I can't cult ambush transports I believe, so I either infiltrate or outflank with the death squad. I like the idea of having them mobile since Brood Cycle is 1 dice roll only and low chance to assault first turn. I figure I am leaving the roll of the dice to my primus and broodlord squads, I want one that is mobile and not dependent on dice rolls. So I put them in a metal box, infiltrate in a spot out of line of sight, and position so that on turn 2 I can roll up my open top transport, unload, and charge. Outflank is just a good option to have in case my opponent is deep strike heavy and I am not sure where I will need to position.
The Chimeras infiltrate as semi-static bunkers for the Mining Laser teams. Most everything else Infiltrates/Outflanks. Goliaths are there for TL Tank Hunter Autocannons.
1_The Cult Ambush rules says: ''... can choose to roll on the Cult ambush table... instead of arriving from reserves normally'' The issue about rolling 3+ to arrive is in a chapter called ''Arriving from reserves'' of the rulebook; DOES IT MEAN THAT I CAN COME FROM RESERVES AUTOMATICALLY WHEN RESERVES ARE ALLOWED (so turn 2 normally) without rolling the dices?
2_ I'm asking because 1d4chan says: ''...The rule very specifically says that Cult Ambushing is done instead of deploying or coming out of reserves normally, though they arrive as described for other reserves unless otherwise specified. This allows the Cults to effectively NULL DEPLOY, as they come in like reserves on the controlling player's FIRST TURN instead of normal deployment. '' but it doesnt seem right to me.
3_If I infiltrate and roll a 5, can I shoot in the deployment or moving turn? Otherwise I cant shoot twice I guess.
4_ What do you do when you get the second turn? Deploying in the face of ur opponent seems a suicide to me, what's ur tactic?
thank you
1) No, you need to roll for reserves normally, then roll on the cult ambush table.
2) 1d4chan is wrong - nothing in cults can come in from reserves T1. You either a) deploy with it, in which case you essentially infiltrate but then roll on the table and apply the result (and since you haven't infiltrated in a turn, you are free to move and shoot as normal in T1), or b) come on from reserves using it, from T2 onwards.
3) You shoot out of phase - so if you roll a 5 before the game when deploying you get to shoot before the game starts! Likewise if you do it when coming in from reserves you shoot after you put the models down (before you roll your next reserve) and are free to shoot or run as normal in the shooting phase.
4) I have, in my limited experience so far, often opted for second turn. It means we get to pop out on objectives and win the game in Eternal war - but also means there is no risk of being seized on and having most of my army killed T1. I deploy far back behind an aegis defence line, which combined with Shrouded gives me 2+ cover, then take almost everything back into reserves T1 to regen models and come in together with the rest of my army T2. Other people may have other approaches though and this will depend on mission and matchup.
When using the Detachment all your units can infiltrate..giving you Null Deployment if you choose so.
If you infiltrate turn 1 you follow the rules for either infiltrate or cult ambush.
If using CA you cannot move or act in a way other than what CA allows you to do depending on your roll.
Deadly Trap allows you to shoot immediately when placing the unit..
ok! Thank you very much! I was thinking the same for the 2nd turn issue, the only problem is that: placing all the models, analyize the threats, roll the dices for every unit, remember the formation bonuses and the hq bonuses... Im an experienced player, but this is really too complicated, if I want to play well as well
I use deployment trays, numbered tokens for each squad, and tokens to mark which can charge the next turn.....I've forgotten about my 24" FnP from the icon ward every game so far
DarklyDreaming wrote:ok! Thank you very much! I was thinking the same for the 2nd turn issue, the only problem is that: placing all the models, analyize the threats, roll the dices for every unit, remember the formation bonuses and the hq bonuses... Im an experienced player, but this is really too complicated, if I want to play well as well
Just keep it simple and rely on the basic strategy: Getting you're rending units as fast and as save as possible in combat and play the mission. I don't use handflamers (distraction) and know what I want with my psychic powers. With movement tray's my games go fast enough and the cult ambush results do the rest.
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote:I use deployment trays, numbered tokens for each squad, and tokens to mark which can charge the next turn.....I've forgotten about my 24" FnP from the icon ward every game so far
There's a lot of stuff to keep track of.
I always forget that rending claws got ap 5 and that you can also use your close combat weapon if you don't want to kill sumthing.
On paper those metamorphs with claws look amazing but in most cases the cheaper acolytes do the same job as wel. You need the bodies to take incoming fire but once you locked them in close combat it should be over.
If you take a subterranean uprising with:
- 5 acolytes
- 5 acolytes
- 10 metamorphs with claws
- 10 metamorphs with claws
- 10 metamorphs with claws
For the same amount of points you can have 9/10 more bodies with this setting:
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote: I use deployment trays, numbered tokens for each squad, and tokens to mark which can charge the next turn.....I've forgotten about my 24" FnP from the icon ward every game so far
There's a lot of stuff to keep track of.
I constantly forget about this too. I generally forget the WS/ Ld bubble for my Brood Cycle units and the Adamantium Will bubbles from the Magus.
I suggest you write it on a poker chip...I use the colors to remind me what I'm looking for...so take say a white chip, write 12" adamantium will. lay it next to the unit/Dude that produces, and you'll get a reminder. For hatred/Zeal I use a Red one with the two sides differing. Blue is for "other stuff" Red is "Combat stuff" White is saves and stuff.
Ok. So by now we've all read the FAQs on the warhammer-community sight right? So it's been almost 24 hours and I'm still absolutely stunned at how bad we have been screwed. But let's regroup and move on, right? Here's the first order of the day: If someone has Servo skulls, I am going to essentially treat them let they're going first no matter what. Deploy my whole army far away in cover, then RTTS turn 1 and come back on turn 2 to try and do what I can to stop them, but now ignoring their precious skulls.
So here's the big old question... how do I pull this off against tau? So far going second against Tau has been a nightmare as interceptor blows me away each time. I've pulled out some wins, but not many or easily. Very very tough to deal with.
jifel wrote: Ok. So by now we've all read the FAQs on the warhammer-community sight right? So it's been almost 24 hours and I'm still absolutely stunned at how bad we have been screwed.
What do you mean? Only the servo skulls are bad but the other stuff was to be expected. I didn't play it differently...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: So here's the big old question... how do I pull this off against tau? So far going second against Tau has been a nightmare as interceptor blows me away each time. I've pulled out some wins, but not many or easily. Very very tough to deal with.
If your army cannot deal interceptor fire, then you cannot deal with its 'normal' fire either. You need more bodies to soak up bullets and that means more acoytes or neophytes. Pick an aegis defence with comm link and then you can also keep stuff save and/or in reserve.
What shogun said - the FAQ wasn't much of a shock, and most of it lines up with how I've been playing the army anyway, including the thing about servo skulls. The only real difference is the Allies and RttS; I've always treated them as enemies and assumed they blocked RttS, but they no longer do, which opens up some interesting possibilities.
It sucks a little, but it really just changes the tactics. And they'll have to spend the points on an inquisitor w/servo skulls....admittedly super cheap.
More importantly for ITC tournament stuff that requires they use a detachment to get it correct?
Played a crazy game last night against a DA player and a player using one of the new Castellans of the imperium detachment. It was a super cool setup with lines of trenches in a square around a Fortress of Redemption. My ally was actually a DA player also (4 people total, 1250 points per player) and we had a really cool twist:
(If this is TLDR, short version is this was possibly the best game of 40k I've ever played)
Spoiler:
All of the imperium players were deployed inside the fortress, the surrounding area or the trenches around the fortress (so basically they had like a 4 x 3 rectangle to deploy in). We played an adaptation of an old 6th ed mission (one of the extra ones that weren't the eternal war ones....I forget what it was called). The victory condition for myself and the one DA player was that we had to have a single turn where the missile silo was not being contested by any enemy units, and their victory condition was to at least contest the silo every turn (random game length like usual). We let my teammate deploy anywhere he wanted inside the city limits after the other two players deployed, but he didn't know that the opposing team knew he was a traitor...that's what you get for making your list in the other room while we decide the mission LOL! We auto-gave them first turn.
The opposing DA player brought a squadron of dreads, 2 tac squads in las razorbacks and a squad of death wing knights led by an interrogator chaplain in a land raider.
The opposing imperium player brought a space marine detachment (3 tac squads), a bane blade, a librarian, a grey knight librarian and an inquisitor (but no servo skulls).
My teammate brought a lion's blade strike force with 2 squads of 3 bikes, 2 land speeders, an assault marine squad with a company master, 3 tac marine squads in rhinos and a squad of lascannon devastators (who manned the top tower on the fortress of redemption for the entire game).
I brought a maxed out first curse, a subterranean assault formation w/10 claw metamorphs and 2 squads of 20 acolytes w/banner, 1 rock saw, plus the primus. Had a side CAD of another patriarch, a magus, and 2 min acolyte squads.
This was one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played, where every turn it was a heavy slug fest. My warlord got the 6 trait and my primus' squad rolled a 6 to deploy. The baneblade took out almost the entire squad of 20 acolytes in its first turn, including the magus and the primus (RIP auto look out sir) because neither of the blasts scattered, it wasn't night fight and I decided that going to ground in the trenches wasn't worth giving up my turn 1 charge from that squad...boy was I wrong haha.
We did still hit back hard though, as the first curse mulched through about 1.5 tac squads a turn for the whole game, plus whatever metal boxes happened to be nearby. And that lion's blade full BS overwatch...wow it saved my teammate more times than I could count. Saw a squad of death wing knights fail 3/5 armor saves, watched myself fail 7/8 4+ cover saves, and saw a single 8 point acolyte charge and take 2 hull points off a bane blade. In the end, it came down to turn 5 where we had to kill the bane blade to stop it from contesting the missile silo. Multi meltas whiffed, lascannons whiffed, we're left with a patriarch and 4 gene stealers, plus the lone aforementioned acolyte. Baneblade is at 8 hull points. I do the acolyte combat first and am amazed to watch him strip 2 by his lonesome. I do the patriarch next and he strips two more (sadly I didn't roll the +1 str power; otherwise I bet he and his friends would have done more). Last 4 gene stealers decide to hit 17 times. Since the bane blade is rear armor 12, a 6 would guarantee a glance (can't roll lower than +1 on the rend d3 roll). With 4 hull points, a little bit of luck means the bane blade is dead and the game is won. I roll 3 6's. It survives to fight another day...only there isn't another day. The game end roll is a 1 (rolled by yours truly) and we take the L, though it would have been a certain victory if the game went on to turn 6 or 7.
And that is how I lost my first game as GSC. To be fair, I still count myself as undefeated in normal, fair 1 v 1 games. I think I may have hung my teammate out to dry just a little too much that game during deployment
Now that the FAQ is out, we got smacked around a bit but we did get a confirmation that we can move after ambush on the initial setup.
Does this mean that demo charges might be a legitimate thing to take, especially on the brood cycle acolytes? Outside of a roll of a 1, they have a high probability of being right in the action to get a good throw in. They can force things from bunching up or castling. Plus only rolling one dice on the ambush table, they have a better chance of being effective. I'm also considering maybe one unit with a few flamers for the same reason.
I've been struggling with how to work out the brood cycle and thinking of those units as ones that can shoot might be the way to go.
My other debate I've been having is how worthwhile the primus is in the subterranean. He's essentially the same cost as another 5 man clawmorph squad.
Any FAQ changes that have made you change up your list?
Any FAQ changes that have made you change up your list?
Made me take the primus out of my CAD. Not worth having more than one if he can't buff the subterranean formation (in fact he actually takes a die AWAY from their roll if he's not the one from their formation)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait a second....I think the subterranean assault formation CAN benefit from an outside primus' effects. Here are the relevant FAQ:
"Q: If a unit in the Subterranean Uprising Formation is joined by a Patriarch or Magus who is not from the Formation, are they still able to roll 2D6 when using Cult Ambush?
A: No.
Q: If the Primus from the Subterranean Uprising joins a unit who is not from Subterranean Uprising, do they only roll one dice when using Cult Ambush?
A: Yes."
So clearly adding a Magus or a Patriarch does not allow the formation to still roll 2d6, but they don't mention a primus from outside of the formation. They also mention that the primus from the subterranean formation can't go make a different unit roll 3d6 (rip my first curse).
Page 86
– Special Rules, Meticulous Planner
Change the rule to read:
‘If a unit in this Formation has been joined by a Primus
from this Formation, you can roll three dice instead of
one when rolling on the Cult Ambush table for this unit,
and select any one of the results.’
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Now that the FAQ is out, we got smacked around a bit but we did get a confirmation that we can move after ambush on the initial setup.
Does this mean that demo charges might be a legitimate thing to take, especially on the brood cycle acolytes? Outside of a roll of a 1, they have a high probability of being right in the action to get a good throw in. They can force things from bunching up or castling. Plus only rolling one dice on the ambush table, they have a better chance of being effective. I'm also considering maybe one unit with a few flamers for the same reason.
No, for these reasons:
- If you get first turn you got to get in close combat so no reason to shoot down enemy models increasing your assault range.
- If you don't get first turn the will die first.
- 20 points are another 2.5 acolytes (bodies) with 8/10 attacks rending.
- Throwing a 6 inch range large blast is risky.
If I need flamers during the game I summon them. Also good to summon 20 neophytes with shotguns.
I've been struggling with how to work out the brood cycle and thinking of those units as ones that can shoot might be the way to go.
My other debate I've been having is how worthwhile the primus is in the subterranean. He's essentially the same cost as another 5 man clawmorph squad.
I think you forget about 12 inch zealot. I put him with 20 acolytes to give a big cheap unit 3d6 for cult ambush. I deploy them first and if I got a '6' result I put them in the front. Then I deploy the units that contain the patriarchs and deploy them 17 inch away from them (can also do this with normal infiltrate). All the rest goes behind the primus/acolyte unit. Primus unit are intervening models and provide a 5+ coversave + shrouded and possible stealth (night fight), so thats a 2+ coversave. The unit itself can go to ground and get a 3/4+ coversave. next turn I move the patriarchs within 12 inch and fearless makes them stand up again.
The only part of the FaQ that I wasn't already playing was the outside Primuses conveying 3D6 ambush rolls onto sub uprising units. Bit annoyed about that if only cos it invalidates my owning multiple primuses - and its the exact opposite ruling to the doting throng, who can be affected by outside magoses!
But yeah, otherwise exactly how I would've interpreted things.
jifel wrote: Really? Even familiars getting the attacks of the the bearers? Cause that one I did NOT see coming at all.
I'm not sure what they're saying with the "attacks" thing. Isn't it specific about being 2 strength 4 rending attacks? I get it's at the bearer's WS and initiative.
jifel wrote: Really? Even familiars getting the attacks of the the bearers? Cause that one I did NOT see coming at all.
I'm not sure what they're saying with the "attacks" thing. Isn't it specific about being 2 strength 4 rending attacks? I get it's at the bearer's WS and initiative.
That was my interpretation of the familiar rules from the Codex. But, if the FAQ lets me use his attack value too I'm all for it! That's 8 familiar attacks on a Patriarch, in addition to his 4!
I am also betting that they meant to say initiative not attacks. But, for now, a Genestealer Familiar may use the attacks of its bearer. Therefore a Familiar to a Patriarch may use A:4 when using its attacks. Two familiars therefore can produce 8 attacks.
jifel wrote: I am also betting that they meant to say initiative not attacks. But, for now, a Genestealer Familiar may use the attacks of its bearer. Therefore a Familiar to a Patriarch may use A:4 when using its attacks. Two familiars therefore can produce 8 attacks.
That would make them really nasty! Almost an auto include for patriarchs
jifel wrote: I am also betting that they meant to say initiative not attacks. But, for now, a Genestealer Familiar may use the attacks of its bearer. Therefore a Familiar to a Patriarch may use A:4 when using its attacks. Two familiars therefore can produce 8 attacks.
Oh come on people. A model with a familiar gets 2 x S4 attacks so its obvious that it doesn't mean that a familiair gives the same amount of patriarch attacks (4). A little common sense please...
shogun wrote: Oh come on people. A model with a familiar gets 2 x S4 attacks so its obvious that it doesn't mean that a familiair gives the same amount of patriarch attacks (4). A little common sense please...
That's what I thought too. But what else could you interpret from that FAQ?
shogun wrote: Oh come on people. A model with a familiar gets 2 x S4 attacks so its obvious that it doesn't mean that a familiair gives the same amount of patriarch attacks (4). A little common sense please...
That's what I thought too. But what else could you interpret from that FAQ?
that they attacks happen at the same time as the normal attacks
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Now that the FAQ is out, we got smacked around a bit but we did get a confirmation that we can move after ambush on the initial setup.
Well... yeah. Deployment happens prior to the first turn. I don't understand why anyone would think your dudes couldn't move on turn one just because they Infiltrate funny.
Does this mean that demo charges might be a legitimate thing to take, especially on the brood cycle acolytes?
It might help with bubblewrap; it might also scatter back onto your Acolytes and kill them all. I'm of the opinion that Acolytes don't need any help with dying, since they're very good at that already. Plus the GSC credo seems to be more bodies are better than better bodies, and Demo Charges are eye-wateringly expensive.
I've been struggling with how to work out the brood cycle and thinking of those units as ones that can shoot might be the way to go.
I've always treated the Brood Cycle as expendables - they're the dudes who protect your HQs with ablative wounds, eat Overwatch for your SubUp units, and give cover saves to your ObSec CAD Troops. The Ld bubble means they're less reliant on Fearless than SubUppers or CADders, and while the WS boost is nice I've never found it necessary given the huge numbers of dice you're rolling.
GSC shooting is, in a word, dire. It is wretchedly bad. It is to the GSC what close combat is to Guard infantry - a desperate last resort that you use if you can't do anything else. The only benefit your dudes get from their pistols is +1 Attack.
My other debate I've been having is how worthwhile the primus is in the subterranean. He's essentially the same cost as another 5 man clawmorph squad.
I don't bother with him anymore, for that reason.
Any FAQ changes that have made you change up your list?
So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
vercingatorix wrote: So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
The reasoning is that units generally lose funky deployment rules if not everyone in the unit carries that rule.
You are correct that those other ICs would invalidate the extra rolls for CA.
vercingatorix wrote: So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
The reasoning is that units generally lose funky deployment rules if not everyone in the unit carries that rule.
You are correct that those other ICs would invalidate the extra rolls for CA.
Well I guess if the patriarch says so, that's how it is.
vercingatorix wrote: So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
The reasoning is that units generally lose funky deployment rules if not everyone in the unit carries that rule.
You are correct that those other ICs would invalidate the extra rolls for CA.
Well I guess if the patriarch says so, that's how it is.
Well there isn't a block as in you're not allowed to do it, you just only roll 1D6 for ambush. I see no reason why it'd stop CADs being joined by units from our formation. The units in our formation get Infiltrate (so characters from it have Shrouded since they all, bar the Iconward, already have infiltrate) - meaning you potentially have an incentive to stick formation HQs in CAD units to give them Shrouded first turn. Vice versa, HQs from CADs joining formation units will all already have Infiltrate, so no issues there, they just don't get Shrouded.
(Note that the above is based on the new BRBFaQ, in which units with at least one model with Infiltrate can do so, but do not have to do so.)
vercingatorix wrote: So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
The reasoning is that units generally lose funky deployment rules if not everyone in the unit carries that rule.
You are correct that those other ICs would invalidate the extra rolls for CA.
Well I guess if the patriarch says so, that's how it is.
Well there isn't a block as in you're not allowed to do it, you just only roll 1D6 for ambush. I see no reason why it'd stop CADs being joined by units from our formation. The units in our formation get Infiltrate (so characters from it have Shrouded since they all, bar the Iconward, already have infiltrate) - meaning you potentially have an incentive to stick formation HQs in CAD units to give them Shrouded first turn. Vice versa, HQs from CADs joining formation units will all already have Infiltrate, so no issues there, they just don't get Shrouded.
(Note that the above is based on the new BRBFaQ, in which units with at least one model with Infiltrate can do so, but do not have to do so.)
I was just trying to make a joke on the patriarchs name. I will remember an exclamation point next time!
This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. If I join a cad magus lets say to a sub assault squad. The faq ruled they don't get to use their subassault 2d6 rules. Okay, fair enough.
What about the rest of the formation benefits? Do they still get to return d6 guys, what about the formation giving them shrouding? That's a cad character now benefiting from formation rules which we're allowed to do sometimes but not others.
I'll play it that they benefit from those things but honestly I hope 8th simplifies ruling sharing of formations/units/ and ICs.
HQ from a CAD would not benefit from shrouding the first turn. CAD units would also not benefit from the replenishment of d6 casualties. That is unless the HQ joins a unit that would normally get shrouding (ex. Patriarch from CAD joining a genestealer cult from the formation).
However, the HQ from the formation joining a CAD unit, would pass along the shrouding benefit. You only need one model with stealth or shrouding for the whole unit to benefit.
The unit from the formation would replenish casualties regardless of what HQ was attached. Similarly a CAD unit will never replenish casualties even if a HQ from the formation is attached.
vercingatorix wrote: This is the part that doesn't make sense to me. If I join a cad magus lets say to a sub assault squad. The faq ruled they don't get to use their subassault 2d6 rules. Okay, fair enough.
What about the rest of the formation benefits?
Units in a SubUp get Infiltrate as part of the SubUp formation. If you take the SubUp as part of the Cult Insurrection, they get Shrouded first turn since they already have Infiltrate because of the SubUp, which the CAD Magus would also benefit from since it's an "If one or more models..." rule.
The unit also gets to use Numbers Beyond Counting because it's part of a Cult Insurrection detachment. I don't understand why you think a CADIC would prevent that. Where's the precedent for it?
vercingatorix wrote: So do people think that block on joining a patriarch and a magus to a sub assault will block iconward and a CAD primus as well?
It just says "No" it doesn't give a reasoning. Like others have said I doubt I'll bother with more than one primus now but it might be nice to place my iconward a little more reliably.
The reasoning is that units generally lose funky deployment rules if not everyone in the unit carries that rule.
You are correct that those other ICs would invalidate the extra rolls for CA.
Well I guess if the patriarch says so, that's how it is.
My other debate I've been having is how worthwhile the primus is in the subterranean. He's essentially the same cost as another 5 man clawmorph squad.
I don't bother with him anymore, for that reason.
I still like him but I use big (20) acolyte units and that extra d6 is very helpful. If you only use small GSC units he dies to quick to be of any use.
Once assaulted a ravenwing command squad with invisibility with 2x10 metamorphs and that first turn reroll (zealot) really paid off.
Did a 3 round-tournament with my GSC armylist and would like to share my thoughts.
FIRST ROUND
table quarters with adjusted mealstrom + big guns never tire + difference in kill points (max 8)
Enemy: Infernal tetrad 4 damon prince + warpflame host with 9 exalted flamers and 1 herald on disc + 5 furies.
He just keeps everything on the ground and moves in to corrupt all the objectives he can.
I deployed 1 patriarch with genestealers + 5 acolytes + deployed/infiltrated all my subterranean uprising units in the opposite corner. My first turn I removed(rtts) all the units except the 5 acolytes near the comm link.
Then everything came in.
Was capable of locking in the exalted flamer unit and khorne daemon Prince and its was a full fight for 4 turns straight.
BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD:
He was capable of keeping his cursed earth up and running and that Tzeentch prince with 2+ reroll was not going away. Then I made the mistake of trying to finish of the nurgle prince with my patriarch unit but forgot he got an instant kill weapon. I went for the wipe but could not pull it off. a 11-9 win for him. I didn't get summoning and that really sucked.
ROUND TWO:
vanguard with adjusted mealstrom + 5 objectives + difference in kill points (max 8)
wulfen deathstar with runepriests+celestine+ priests + sammuel and all that jazz...
I deployed/infiltrated everything
He moved everything forward and shot with his runepriest sum lightining towards sum acolytes but only killed 2.
I removed everyting and he just picked up sum objectives.
Then the came from the shadows:
At the left he got his runepriest and thats where I attacked with my '6' result units. killing 2 runepriest really help. At that point I just kept summoning units and kept him in close combat for 5 full turns. He failed his 'hit and run' once and after that he hit and run away in his own turn but it was already to late.
BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD
Last turn I blocked his remaining deathstar unit from the objectives and claimed 5 objectives + mealstrom + sum extra kill points. 20-0 for me.
ROUND 3
Dawn of war with adjusted mealstrom + emperors will objectives + difference in kill points (max 8)
Eldar jetibikes, wraithguard in waveserpent, wraithknight, 3x warp spiders, callexus assassin and sum stuff.
Also didn't get summoning and no first turn. He was ready to take me on
Everything sucked, stupid mistakes, bad Cult ambush roll's, bad shooting, bad assault moves, losing the Patriarch after failing a 4 inch assault move, and no fearless bubble anymore, grrr. Lost this one 19-1.
evaluation:
- Not having summoning really sucked! I might add another patriarch for more summoning/dice/fearless.
- I also consider adding the doting throng instead of sum acolytes/metamorphs. I would like to have more models/wounds to tie up units and wait for reinforcements. Rending is nice but against inv-saves it doesn't matter anyway.
- I also have to be carefull with my patriarchs. With 2 of them and possible 1 sucking at cult ambush I need to focus around my fearless bubble.
- I often want to be a treat to everyting on the field but I got to pick a flank and not be afraid of the other half of the enemies army. Ignore what you can ignore and pick them out later.
Great report! My non warhammer question is why you write with full complete sentences and correct spelling except for using "sum" instead of "some" if English isn't your first language I apologize, the rest of it was great. (I am no saint in this regard, despite decades of practice my spelling needs help.)
I agree with your final assessment as well. I actually took out a patriarch from my list to take a doting throng and more magus because I was tired of having a flank with no fearless.
Eldar can be a rough match up if you refuse to roll 6s. My advice is to just keep recycling as much as possible since every six is basically a dead enemy unit.
With that being said, that doesn't look like the flame skatchach so maybe just deploying up close and eating a turn of shooting with shrouding wouldn't hurt that badly.
I'm also surprised you managed to stay in combat for any length of time with wulfen. I've played them twice and both times I've actually relied on massed ambush and pistols and lasguns to kill them or just ignoring them outright. They're just way too scary in close combat.
vercingatorix wrote: Great report! My non warhammer question is why you write with full complete sentences and correct spelling except for using "sum" instead of "some" if English isn't your first language I apologize, the rest of it was great. (I am no saint in this regard, despite decades of practice my spelling needs help.)
I agree with your final assessment as well. I actually took out a patriarch from my list to take a doting throng and more magus because I was tired of having a flank with no fearless.
Eldar can be a rough match up if you refuse to roll 6s. My advice is to just keep recycling as much as possible since every six is basically a dead enemy unit.
With that being said, that doesn't look like the flame skatchach so maybe just deploying up close and eating a turn of shooting with shrouding wouldn't hurt that badly.
Thanks! English is not my first language but I like it if you correct me, because there is no reason for my not wanting to improve my english writing.
I still gotta test 3 scenario's against different armies and different missions.
Scenario 1: Deploy the subterranean uprising + unit behind the defence line and return to the shadow, and go for second turn cult ambush(+ reserves)
after that...
-Scenario 1.1: Go for the throat and go full assault.
-Scenario 1.2: take out a flank and be ready to go back to the shadows, replenish and go for a second assault wave.
Scenario 2: deploy everything in their face and go for the assault and dominate the field. Take the maelstrom objectives.
after that...
scenario 2.1: you keep first turn and wreck havoc
scenario 2.2: you get seized and you either push thru with first turn shrouded or return to the shadow to lick your wounds and come back second turn.
scenario 3: total guerrilla style. Take the objectives and only use the '6' results to attack units and keep taking units off the board with return to the shadow and keep returning units with cult ambush.
It will depend on how they deploy. A lot of people like to castle hard against GSC so until they learn better. I like to deploy everything sort of mid board where I'll get a lot of cover and get probably score maelstrom points. Maybe put 1-2 sacrificial sixes in their face to keep them occupied. I also like to put my summoned unit in their face (ambush roll permitting), 20 neophytes are pretty annoying to get rid of.
So hopefully they're first turn of movement is blocked, they kill all your nearby but you've had a turn of board control. If you want to keep your army on the board threatening assault you can continue that board control while they peel you off the board. Hope the game doesn't go till 7 so you can maintain your lead in maelstrom and board control.
Red Corsair wrote: Man it must have taken you a month straight to get that many dudes painted Shogun. Any speed painting tips? haha
Yes, I did speed-paint.
- first black undercoat,
- then drybrush boltgun metal the body + agrax earthshade, after that,
- then daemonette hide for the body parts + carroburn crimson shade + finish drybrush daemonette hide with a bit of white in the mix,
- clothes/robes, all units got a different colour to keep them apart,
- Them sum small details like pistols, eyes, claws and stuff,
So it's alle about drybrushing and shades.
I still need to finish them but for now they're tabletop ready.
I am just at the assembly phase and while I play with list building it is getting scary how many models are required ha ha. I have become more and more of a perfectionist with my armies and I think I need to make some temporary concessions if I ever want to play the army in the near future ha ha.
Red Corsair wrote: I am just at the assembly phase and while I play with list building it is getting scary how many models are required ha ha. I have become more and more of a perfectionist with my armies and I think I need to make some temporary concessions if I ever want to play the army in the near future ha ha.
I only bought a few boxes and made a mold for the acolytes/metamorphs to increase the amount of bodies. I combined this with genestealer bits and this way I could field that amount of units without paying to much. I don't mind paying for a decent army but i'am not going to pay 30 bucks for 5 acolytes if I run the risk that the next codex could ruin my whole army in a tournament setting. Before this army I was working on a conversion-daemon horrrors army and then suddenly the horrors lose malefic powers and my whole army was useless.
I don't feel guilty towards GW for this because I don't sell this stuff to others and I still bought the GSC-codex and a few boxes from them, and if I didn't do this then I would have stopped buying stuff a year ago. Nobody thinks it's a problem when players use armies that are not theirs or somebody making 6 riptides out of toy-robots.
I like playing at tournaments and a lot of tournament-players in my area are actually moving towards age of sigmar. People just don't like buying and paining a bunch of stuf that could be useless the next day.
Have any of you tried running a Doting Throng? i have found it to be useful as it puts a lot more fearless cheep bodies on the board to block with and the small bonus with zealot is nice. I pair that with one Patriarch instead of taking two of them for my fearless. Thoughts on that?
IVIOOSE wrote: Have any of you tried running a Doting Throng? i have found it to be useful as it puts a lot more fearless cheep bodies on the board to block with and the small bonus with zealot is nice. I pair that with one Patriarch instead of taking two of them for my fearless. Thoughts on that?
What is everyone else taking for fearless
I'am going to add it to my army but I don't think you should only bring one patriarch. You need at least 2 and 4 psykers is the minimum if you want a reliable 'summoning'.
I think I'am going to like the doting throng because it gives a little more shooting punch (flamers + shotguns) to take down jetbikes and stuff, but the also can assault with furious charge (icon) and zaelot, so thats still a mean punch. Almost all my opponents wanted me to confirm that neophytes indeed got pistols and close combat weapons( WHAT,.?? The got 3 attacks each?!!).
Also don't forget to give the magus in the doting throng the croughling and start rolling on the broodmind powers with him. If you don't get summoning then you can still use the blessings on your neophytes.
shogun wrote: Almost all my opponents wanted me to confirm that neophytes indeed got pistols and close combat weapons( WHAT,.?? The got 3 attacks each?!!).
Hmm. Can you please confirm that again?
They certainly do have pistols, but my codex says that only a neophyte leader gets a close combat weapon.
shogun wrote: Almost all my opponents wanted me to confirm that neophytes indeed got pistols and close combat weapons( WHAT,.?? The got 3 attacks each?!!).
Hmm. Can you please confirm that again?
They certainly do have pistols, but my codex says that only a neophyte leader gets a close combat weapon.
IVIOOSE wrote: Have any of you tried running a Doting Throng? i have found it to be useful as it puts a lot more fearless cheep bodies on the board to block with and the small bonus with zealot is nice. I pair that with one Patriarch instead of taking two of them for my fearless. Thoughts on that?
Big Acolyte squads with Zealot would be neat, but I'm not really sold on the Formation. I don't find myself casting blessings on my dudes all that often so that bonus is wasted - plus, to keep up that Zealot bubble you need to be pushing your Maguses forward, which isn't really where a Magus wants to be in my opinion.
I can't see past Patriarchs for Fearless. It's 50pts on top of the Magus per head, but you're paying for a much tougher model that fits in easier with an Insurrection army. T5 alone is worth the extra points IMO since it makes walking around alone for a turn less deadly for them. They also have Infiltrate built in, so you can attach CAD Patirarchs to Insurrection units without giving up their Ambush deployment and your Insurrection dude gets Shrouded first turn.
i find it more for the use of just having large units to absorb overwatch and tie up big units. also have some shooting(not amazing) but it is something. the fearless is nice and they make for good blocking units.
as for the summoning i actually use a psykana division as they auto get the summoning, are cheep and make a ton of units. it meshes well with the GSC and i cant see myself not taking it anymore.
I run the doting throng with 4 squads of 10 and really like it. I only have 1 Patriarch in my army but a bunch of magus's so they almost always have zealot and often I attach magnus so they keep fighting with high quality attacks since zealot sticks.
I don't think I've every rerolled a blessing on them in 7 games. With that being said, I see that as a bonus, not as their main purpose. I do summoning, then usually any blessings go on the bigger squad of 20 in the sub up. If THAT isn't possible then mass hypnosis is way better than any blessing, at least in close combat. If I play against a really shooty army and go all in on telepathic, then I may use that rule more but it hasn't happened yet.
IVIOOSE wrote: i find it more for the use of just having large units to absorb overwatch and tie up big units. also have some shooting(not amazing) but it is something. the fearless is nice and they make for good blocking units.
Right, but you get all that with your Brood Cycle dudes, who also get bonuses for being within 6" of one another and extended Iconward FNP range.
Fearless is really easy to come by for GSC so the Fearlessness from Zealot isn't a big deal, and the very idea of putting a Magus in combat makes me baulk. When you're doing it so some Neophytes can have RRTH every turn? Blech.
as for the summoning i actually use a psykana division as they auto get the summoning, are cheep and make a ton of units. it meshes well with the GSC and i cant see myself not taking it anymore.
It's not horrendous, I'll grant you, but the one time I tried it the Psykana dudes sat in a corner doing nothing the whole game while my GSC psykers ate through their Warp dice. The issue with them, for me, is that the Psykana units require Warp Dice to be useful, whereas if you're stacking native GSC psykers they have a purpose besides Warp batteries.
I guess if you're going for max Warp Charge in a comp format then Psykana Division is the only way to fly, because it generates way more than you could possibly do by stacking GSC psykers. However, I think the second CAD adds more to the army and is a more TAC choice.
PS: Never, ever summon Daemons into your GSC army. I once tried to run my Daemons as allies and holy Hivemind was it ever a disaster. Two CTA Allies who both want to be in close combat at all times? That's not good.
With the split rule being a thing. I kind of want to grab one regular summoning with a magus. Eat the auto-perils and get some pink horrors to control area and be really annoying to get rid of. Pink horrors are now about the best backfield objective holding unit in the game.
regular GSC i don't believe can roll on Deamonology
and in all of my games with the psykana i have never once had a problem summoning deamons alongside the GSC as it adds a buffer zone and pink horrors just clogg up the nasty deathstars so the gsc can go after the rest of the army.
The deamon summoning just gives more options incase you need to tie things up or go for fast units to get on objectives. Also the nice possession to get a D thirster or a LOC to help with sky fire incase you need it.
I ran a psykana at etc and it did well and now with gsc it's even better as it gives you backfield units so all of your gsc can go up the board.
IVIOOSE wrote: The deamon summoning just gives more options incase you need to tie things up or go for fast units to get on objectives. Also the nice possession to get a D thirster or a LOC to help with sky fire incase you need it.
I ran a psykana at etc and it did well and now with gsc it's even better as it gives you backfield units so all of your gsc can go up the board.
I don't think GSC need any help tying things up or Ambushing onto objectives, and they certainly don't need help in close combat. I'm not sure they need backfield units either, but Horrors might fill that gap if you feel a need, and to be honest a few extra Warp Dice are never to be sniffed at. A skyfire LoC might be nice too, though it assumes you're rolling Possession so it's a bonus rather than a selling point. The other stuff though, D-Thirsters and Daemonettes and the like, all of that wants to be in the same game-space as my GSC dudes, and One Eye Open makes that very problematic.
That is all very true but you have to remember you dont roll one eye open when In Combat so it's easy to mitigate it. With horrors it also gives the list some decent shooting and the ability to summon burning chariots.
A single squad of horrors is 50 wounds with a 5 + invul that can go to ground in ruins for a 3+ cover save all re rolling ones. They also never run away.
I say that's a whole let better at holding an objective than anything we have. considering most of our stuff can't go to ground or if it does has moral issues then. Not to mention that you can't even get rid of the horrors in one phase!
Also, I guess I could be wrong. Every psyker in the game can roll malefic unless specified otherwise.
IVIOOSE wrote: i find it more for the use of just having large units to absorb overwatch and tie up big units. also have some shooting(not amazing) but it is something. the fearless is nice and they make for good blocking units.
as for the summoning i actually use a psykana division as they auto get the summoning, are cheep and make a ton of units. it meshes well with the GSC and i cant see myself not taking it anymore.
You really have me intrigued here. How expensive is that detachment? It generates quite a bit of warp charge, doesn't it? What are you running for the rest of your list?
Sorry for all the questions, it really has me thinking! Lately I've been working in a CAD of two patriarchs, two acolyte squads and a ADL to help with the army, I'm tempted to try this option out.
Psykana Division is 255pts base, 280 for an ML2 Primaris, and 330 if you want a Commissar for all the Wyrdvanes. With an ML2 Primaris the whole shebang generates 5 WC base, plus one for every five Wyrdvanes within 12" of the Primaris, so you can end up with 8WC from this Formation alone. If you're playing ITC comp you get 3 Detachments - your two GSC can generate a maximum of 8 Warp Charges total, so a Psykana effectively doubles your WC.
IVIOOSE wrote:That is all very true but you have to remember you dont roll one eye open when In Combat so it's easy to mitigate it. With horrors it also gives the list some decent shooting and the ability to summon burning chariots.
The test is at the start of the turn though, and you're not going to be in CC 100% of the time your models are on the board and in a position to be near one another. If you don't get a decent Consolidate, for example, you could end up with a Thirster and a bunch of Hybrids standing in midfield eyeing one another suspiciously before they both get burned down next turn. Not to mention the Daemons interfere with RttS.
It's situational at best, and IMHO it's just not worth the hassle.
vercingatorix wrote:I say that's a whole let better at holding an objective than anything we have. considering most of our stuff can't go to ground or if it does has moral issues then. Not to mention that you can't even get rid of the horrors in one phase!
I don't disagree, but again, I don't think this is a tool GSC need in their kit. There's no real need to turtle up on a flag if you can just teleport onto it when you draw the card for it.
That said it's not a terrible option. Horrors would be significantly less of a pain in the ass than melee Daemons, and the extra Warp Charge(s) would be handy. Sucks that they can't have Malefic powers anymore though.
Also, I guess I could be wrong. Every psyker in the game can roll malefic unless specified otherwise.
That's how I read it too. I've yet to see anything convincing that says this is not the case.
You summon 10 pink horrors
10 wounds
Someone kills all of them, now those pink horrors split into 20 blue horrors (Which I believe are actually 2 wounds each but it doesn't really matter as they're T2)
20 wounds
Someone still really doesn't like them and kills all the blues.
40 wounds (which again, I believe are actually 2 wounds but T1 so it's even more irrelevant in most scenarios)
So it's actually 70 wounds or 130 wounds if you decided to get rid of all of them with poison weapons that have no strength.
I don't have the split rule in front of me this is just from reading about the rule on frontline and talking to players.
BBAP wrote: Psykana Division is 255pts base, 280 for an ML2 Primaris, and 330 if you want a Commissar for all the Wyrdvanes. With an ML2 Primaris the whole shebang generates 5 WC base, plus one for every five Wyrdvanes within 12" of the Primaris, so you can end up with 8WC from this Formation alone. If you're playing ITC comp you get 3 Detachments - your two GSC can generate a maximum of 8 Warp Charges total, so a Psykana effectively doubles your WC.
I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.
But on the other hand, I do got Daemon models and the option to just increase your potential is very tempting. Let's say that one wyrdvanes unit got 'possession' and the Primaris psyker could use that power himself. Then the primaris gets possessed with 9 dice and after that the wyrdvanes unit could also do this with 5/6 dice. Thats two very cheap Khorne bloodthirsters right there.
With GSC I don't like it when models are late to the party because when GSC starts to crumble then that one extra unit doesn't help when its late. Thats also often the problem with GSC summoning instead of giving a big unit invisibility or feel no pain. But on the other hand, you can afford a little 'crumbling' if that means you got to make way for two blood thirsters.
I'd argue that both the gsc and psykana are hungry for warp charge. If you want to go psyker-heavy, could add this on top of psykana?
Daemon CAD
Tzerald with paradox and ML2
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
Heralds anarchic
Tzerald
Tzerald
Tzerald
On top of the psykana division, and fill in the rest with gsc. This would make it more of a summoning list, but you'd have tons of spare warp charge to power up your patriarchs and maguses as well as three near guaranteed summons per turn
DoomMouse wrote: I'd argue that both the gsc and psykana are hungry for warp charge. If you want to go psyker-heavy, could add this on top of psykana?
Daemon CAD
Tzerald with paradox and ML2
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
11 blue horrors
Heralds anarchic
Tzerald
Tzerald
Tzerald
On top of the psykana division, and fill in the rest with gsc. This would make it more of a summoning list, but you'd have tons of spare warp charge to power up your patriarchs and maguses as well as three near guaranteed summons per turn
If you go down that path your better of with a full daemon summon armylist. Besides I play at a lot of tournaments that only allow a limited amount of warp charge (14) to be used at summoning and also don't allow come to the apocalypse alliances.
I've have actually been thinking about making this:
BIG WRATH OF MAGNUS TZEENTCH DAEMON FORMATION:
* don't got the book yet so i'am just brainstorming
Lorestealer host blue scribes 81
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
blue horrors 55
heralds could join the pink horrors behind the defence line and the brimstone horrors could just deepstrike. If a tournament only allows a limited amount of summoning than I would just shoot the crap out the enemy with tzeentch powers.
I am great at making molds so I would make a horror conversion that would look like a bit like a squig and call them tzeentch boggle's. Also would make a small flaming ball that looks a bit like that figure in super mario. Put two of them on a base and make brimstone horrors.
shogun wrote: I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.
As a TAC strat it's not great - 280pts is a hefty chunk for 17 borderline-useless models, and if you're playing ITC you're giving up two GSC psyker slots (and 4 rolls on Broodmind). I think if you're dead set on Summoning Horrors for whatever reason then a Psykana Division is probably the best way to go, otherwise I wouldn't bother. I still don't think melee Daemons are a good idea. I was constantly tripping over my Screamers and DP the one time I tried it, and honestly I din't think these models really add anything that GSC need. Slaaneshi models or Cavalry or something might come in handy I guess. Or it might just screw up your RttS. Just seems like a lot of hassle for not much reward.
If you're looking for CTA Allies, Tau or Eldar or something might be a better way to go than Daemons. In fact I think Tau would be perfect CTA Allies for GSC - they have range, firepower, and resilience, which are all things GSC lack, whereas GSC have numbers and CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.
shogun wrote: I have been thinking about this but I don't see the benefit as it doesn't really add's to the general GSC strategy. I want the option to remove most of the GSC units and deny an enemy a whole turn of shooting before I strike from the shadows again. I don't think I would like to have a bunch of vulnerable imperial psykers in the background playing with their private parts, when the Daemon FMC swoop in or the artillery starts firing at them.
As a TAC strat it's not great - 280pts is a hefty chunk for 17 borderline-useless models, and if you're playing ITC you're giving up two GSC psyker slots (and 4 rolls on Broodmind). I think if you're dead set on Summoning Horrors for whatever reason then a Psykana Division is probably the best way to go, otherwise I wouldn't bother. I still don't think melee Daemons are a good idea. I was constantly tripping over my Screamers and DP the one time I tried it, and honestly I din't think these models really add anything that GSC need. Slaaneshi models or Cavalry or something might come in handy I guess. Or it might just screw up your RttS. Just seems like a lot of hassle for not much reward.
If you're looking for CTA Allies, Tau or Eldar or something might be a better way to go than Daemons. In fact I think Tau would be perfect CTA Allies for GSC - they have range, firepower, and resilience, which are all things GSC lack, whereas GSC have numbers and CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.
I think the one eye open rule would really start to bother me.
What do you think about the skytyrant swarm? 20+ gargoyles with a hive tyrant could be useful.
I know next to nothing about Gargoyles, but I'm not really a fan of Flyrants. 265pts for 4 wounds is an awful lot, even with T6 and Swooping, plus the firepower they put out isn't all that impressive.
One Eye Open isn't a big deal with Tau, in my mind anyway, because the two armies want to be on seperate ends of the table. Tau want to sit in a corner and shred things with shooting, whereas GSC want to rove forward and shred things in close combat. There's almost no tournament format that would allow it and the army would have some specific weaknesses, but I think if we're looking at CTA Allies then Tau are the best bet. Much better than Daemons at any rate.
BBAP wrote: I know next to nothing about Gargoyles, but I'm not really a fan of Flyrants. 265pts for 4 wounds is an awful lot, even with T6 and Swooping, plus the firepower they put out isn't all that impressive.
One Eye Open isn't a big deal with Tau, in my mind anyway, because the two armies want to be on seperate ends of the table. Tau want to sit in a corner and shred things with shooting, whereas GSC want to rove forward and shred things in close combat. There's almost no tournament format that would allow it and the army would have some specific weaknesses, but I think if we're looking at CTA Allies then Tau are the best bet. Much better than Daemons at any rate.
Sorry I was referring to the 'one eye open' rule with daemons. With Tau that would not be an issue but I think that Tau shooting would divide the army into 50% good at close combat and 50% good at shooting, And then you're only as strong as your weakest point and that no more then 50%. Now, my army can effectively keep fighting an deathstar unit with all that meat, but a few tau units that cannot really hurt that unit with 3+ inv + 4+ feel no pain etc.. are useless.
The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.
The more I think about this, the more I like it. Tau and GSC would be a total douchebag combo. Right up my alley.
I actually played a team game where I had 500 pts of Tau (which ended up being 4 Broadsides and a Riptide), and my ally had GSC (think he used a Brood Cycle?). It was not fun for our opponents. Granted, we ignored CtA, but it honestly wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway. He was so far forward ambushing people and teleporting onto objectives that he was never anywhere near me. 1 small team game does not overwhelming evidence make, but it definitely seems like a workable combo to me.
shogun wrote: Sorry I was referring to the 'one eye open' rule with daemons. With Tau that would not be an issue but I think that Tau shooting would divide the army into 50% good at close combat and 50% good at shooting, And then you're only as strong as your weakest point and that no more then 50%. Now, my army can effectively keep fighting an deathstar unit with all that meat, but a few tau units that cannot really hurt that unit with 3+ inv + 4+ feel no pain etc.. are useless.
Tau can drop Strength: D shooting into deathstars, or if you manage to squeeze in a Heavy Retribution Cadre you can cripple them quite badly even if the D doesn't work. Then you have Stomp on top of that. It'd open a few holes elsewhere, but 800pts of Tau would really close a lot of the competence gaps GSC have, like killing flyers or killing transports at range - easily enough to fit in a good Insurrection and enough WC to Summon.
Eldar could too I guess. Massed S6 shooting can mimic up for Skyfire and their D isn't Markerlight dependent, plus they have ML3 psykers as standard. If you dropped the Spiders from a Spdier-spam army you could probably do something with what's left.
Again though, the main issue would be finding places to play such armies. Only ETC comp allows CTA allies as far as I know; everyone else says no (even the ones that allow nonsense like the Supertuna or whatever). The FLGS might allow it, but who's going to be the douchebag to show up with a bunch of Strength D shooting and 100+ Cult Ambushers?
The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.
I dunno - as fragile as Flyrants are when they're flying they'd be even worse on the ground, and unless he's passing those LoS in challenges I'm not sure I'd trust him to do a job in CC. Plus, looking at my Nids Codex, that'd be 360pts for this one Formation, and all it's packing are Fleshborers and a grounded Flyrant. Seems like an awful lot for not much return.
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MilkmanAl wrote: I actually played a team game where I had 500 pts of Tau (which ended up being 4 Broadsides and a Riptide), and my ally had GSC (think he used a Brood Cycle?). It was not fun for our opponents. Granted, we ignored CtA, but it honestly wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway. He was so far forward ambushing people and teleporting onto objectives that he was never anywhere near me. 1 small team game does not overwhelming evidence make, but it definitely seems like a workable combo to me.
That's how I'd imagine it going - Tau as the hammer to crack the vase, GSC as a broom to come in and sweep up the bits, like the old 5th Edition Mech/ TWC Space Wolves armies. You could fluff it up too; model the Neophytes up as gue'vesa, stick a few Sept logos on the mining equipment (or a few GSC logos on the Suits), and tell everyone it's a fluffy army - Tau took over a Genestealer-infested planet that wasn't quite ready to summon the Hive Fleet, so the Cult is making nice for the moment. Total fluff-bunny stuff, just happens to be capable of stomping you out.
The skyswarm formation gives you 2 units gargoyles (jump infantry) and flying tyrant and the join into one unit. Hive tyrant cannot swoop anymore and cannot leave the unit but can look out sir on a 2+. It's a nice addition but can also be very pricy.
I dunno - as fragile as Flyrants are when they're flying they'd be even worse on the ground, and unless he's passing those LoS in challenges I'm not sure I'd trust him to do a job in CC. Plus, looking at my Nids Codex, that'd be 360pts for this one Formation, and all it's packing are Fleshborers and a grounded Flyrant. Seems like an awful lot for not much return.
I played with a skytyrant brood a lot just before genecult came out, as the initial promise of BBs for nids meant I was hyped as hell for an invisible gargoyle blob. It's actually a really solid formation. Sadly several of the tricks it had have been killed - obviously the shot at invis, but also VSG shenanigans, and dual relics on the flyrant. Generally you want a lot more than 20 gargs, like 40-50, so the flyrant has a ton of ablative wounds, old adversary, egrubs, lwbs and possibly toxin, AG, the maw-claws, reaper or the ymgarl factor on the flyrant, as well as a source of shrouded for the thing. So yeah, a ton of points, around 500 or so at least the way I ran it.
I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.
vercingatorix wrote: Great report! My non warhammer question is why you write with full complete sentences and correct spelling except for using "sum" instead of "some" if English isn't your first language I apologize, the rest of it was great. (I am no saint in this regard, despite decades of practice my spelling needs help.)
I agree with your final assessment as well. I actually took out a patriarch from my list to take a doting throng and more magus because I was tired of having a flank with no fearless.
Eldar can be a rough match up if you refuse to roll 6s. My advice is to just keep recycling as much as possible since every six is basically a dead enemy unit.
With that being said, that doesn't look like the flame skatchach so maybe just deploying up close and eating a turn of shooting with shrouding wouldn't hurt that badly.
Thanks! English is not my first language but I like it if you correct me, because there is no reason for my not wanting to improve my english writing.
I still gotta test 3 scenario's against different armies and different missions.
Scenario 1: Deploy the subterranean uprising + unit behind the defence line and return to the shadow, and go for second turn cult ambush(+ reserves)
after that...
-Scenario 1.1: Go for the throat and go full assault.
-Scenario 1.2: take out a flank and be ready to go back to the shadows, replenish and go for a second assault wave.
Scenario 2: deploy everything in their face and go for the assault and dominate the field. Take the maelstrom objectives.
after that...
scenario 2.1: you keep first turn and wreck havoc
scenario 2.2: you get seized and you either push thru with first turn shrouded or return to the shadow to lick your wounds and come back second turn.
scenario 3: total guerrilla style. Take the objectives and only use the '6' results to attack units and keep taking units off the board with return to the shadow and keep returning units with cult ambush.
In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.
Benlisted wrote:I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.
GSC control ground with Cult Ambush, insofar as they need to do it at all, and I think Invisible Neophytes would make just as good flypaper/ tarpit units, especially with a Patriarch handy. Most GSC units already murder anything that's not CC-dedicated, and I can't help but feel anything that can kill GSC units will probably kill the Flyrant as well - I don't see him getting the better of a First Curse, Wolf blob, or 20+ Daemonettes. He has no invul save, he has no protection against Force weapons in challenges... I dunno, I don't see the attraction myself.
I'm not sold on anything to do with the Allies of Convenience to be honest. AM suck - they seem like a reasonable option because they have range, but their shooting is supremely lacklustre and there never seems to be enough of it to make a difference. Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.
I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.
Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.
Not sure I get the idea behind shotgun Neophytes - double-tap before charging, sure, but they're generally charging stuff they can kill easily, or can't kill at all but can tie up. In the former case the autopistol is good enough for an opening shot, in the latter case the shotgun will do only marginally more damage than the autopistol, which is none at all. Shotguns lose the 24" single tap, which means less overlap in your firepower (if you can call it "firepower").
I thought I had my army settled too, but I've changed it a bit to accomodate Magnus Nipple Novas and Lightning Arcs and the suchlike:
Pats go with the non-SubUp Morphs and Acolytes, Magus goes with the Neophytes.
Consolidated a lot of units together and removed a Patriarch to fit a few more models in. The 10-mans can soak Novas and the suchlike better than 5-mans can, and although the number of deployment Ambush rolls has gone down the overall number of bodies has increased slightly. Haven't played a game with this yet, still need to try it out.
I like the shot guns mainly for when you roll the 6. they only ever do well vs T3 models or units with saves that are just as bad as theirs.
as for having range i find the neophytes are my blocking units so 12" is plenty for me. and i pick up most my long range reliable shooting from pink horrors and psy shrieks if i roll on telep. but that all depends on what army i am playing against.
Saythings wrote: In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.
A GSC army should not be fixated on the '6' results. First turn GSC army is all about getting close with cult ambush deployment and having shrouded/stealth when facing the enemies first turn. Then the second turn everybody can assault. But you really have to calculate what happens if the seize. If the enemy begins then you have to face two rounds of shooting. If this means that you can take the objectives for two turns and it really helps than it could be worth it.
BBAP wrote: Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.
I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.
I think that Nids could be a nice addition. something like;
But then you would have a second turn army that comes out of (ongoing) reserves.
IVIOOSE wrote:Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.
If I would go for the Psykana Division then I think I would like this setting. But you really have to play fast because thats a lot of MSU in combination with a longer psychic phase. I would prefer 10 model units. Only problem is your weak fearless bubble that can only look out sir to 10 neophytes max.
BBAP wrote:
I thought I had my army settled too, but I've changed it a bit to accomodate Magnus Nipple Novas and Lightning Arcs and the suchlike:
Pats go with the non-SubUp Morphs and Acolytes, Magus goes with the Neophytes.
Consolidated a lot of units together and removed a Patriarch to fit a few more models in. The 10-mans can soak Novas and the suchlike better than 5-mans can, and although the number of deployment Ambush rolls has gone down the overall number of bodies has increased slightly. Haven't played a game with this yet, still need to try it out.
I don't think this setup is very efficient. You're giving away extra cult ambush d6 for no reason. Also don't forget the croughling on your magus.
You can always attach patriarch's to your 10 acolytes units and lose the extra d6 but it's nice to have options. I'am not really fond of the 10 genestealer unit because I fear that that's the one that's going to roll 1 and 2 all the time. If you want more 12 inch adamantium will then I would give up a single patriarch and replace it with magus + 5 acolytes.
To be honest I'm a bit sick of the SubUp. The 2d6 is nice, but being forced to Infiltrate them isn't. The 10 Stealers are there primarily to provide cover saves for the Hybrids at deployment, and act as an annoyance. The army is full of Genestealers, so I don't mind if these ones make it into combat or don't.
Still not sure I like the idea of 10-man squads to be honest. They can soak Novas better than 5-mans, but they're a bit all-or-nothing. With 5-mans you can land a couple of 6s on every Ambush, and even if that's not enough to throw a big assault at someone it's usually enough to take out a backfield unit or a vehicle or something. Feels like you'd lose that by taking 10-mans; you'd spend a lot more time sitting around setting up and not assaulting anything.
Self explanatory really. 90 Neophytes to clog up the field, eat Novas, chase FMCs, etc., plus 75 other dudes and 7 HQs (with 12WC) to do the actual work.
Benlisted wrote:I haven't given much thought to running it with genecult, but it could work - it's excellent at controlling ground and a huge fast melee threat. Sort of use it to block off the centre of the map and suck things up into combat, then clean up with the cultists, as well as using them to countercharge stuff it gets stuck in combat with. But yah, a melee flyrant is actually not awful in combat, they will mince anything not dedicated for CC and lechine and some other nid players had moderate tourney success with a couple of em last year.
GSC control ground with Cult Ambush, insofar as they need to do it at all, and I think Invisible Neophytes would make just as good flypaper/ tarpit units, especially with a Patriarch handy. Most GSC units already murder anything that's not CC-dedicated, and I can't help but feel anything that can kill GSC units will probably kill the Flyrant as well - I don't see him getting the better of a First Curse, Wolf blob, or 20+ Daemonettes. He has no invul save, he has no protection against Force weapons in challenges... I dunno, I don't see the attraction myself.
I'm not sold on anything to do with the Allies of Convenience to be honest. AM suck - they seem like a reasonable option because they have range, but their shooting is supremely lacklustre and there never seems to be enough of it to make a difference. Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.
I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.
All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work. I don't think it's necessarily a great option, but it certainly could work. The main reason "superbeast" flyrants, basically how you run a melee one in the skytyrant but alone, worked for people was threat overload - they were too concerned with the typical flyrants to addredd the CC threat coming at them. And we know genecult are great at threat overload.
I am inclined to agree entirely on the allies thing though - I think cult strengthen the typical flyrant spam by giving it access to some fantastically mobile objective grabbers, and while I have less experience with guard I know mobility is one of their weaknesses too.
BBAP wrote: To be honest I'm a bit sick of the SubUp. The 2d6 is nice, but being forced to Infiltrate them isn't. The 10 Stealers are there primarily to provide cover saves for the Hybrids at deployment, and act as an annoyance. The army is full of Genestealers, so I don't mind if these ones make it into combat or don't.
Still not sure I like the idea of 10-man squads to be honest. They can soak Novas better than 5-mans, but they're a bit all-or-nothing. With 5-mans you can land a couple of 6s on every Ambush, and even if that's not enough to throw a big assault at someone it's usually enough to take out a backfield unit or a vehicle or something. Feels like you'd lose that by taking 10-mans; you'd spend a lot more time sitting around setting up and not assaulting anything.
Self explanatory really. 90 Neophytes to clog up the field, eat Novas, chase FMCs, etc., plus 75 other dudes and 7 HQs (with 12WC) to do the actual work.
I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.
I've also been looking at alysian drop troops allies but I also don't see a lot of benefits. Nothing that neophytes or rending can not do better.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why is being forced to infiltrate/ambush with the SubUp an issue? They can still go wherever you need them to. I guess things might get a little screwy if your opponent also had a decent amount of infiltrators, but I don't see the problem otherwise.
I've always thought Neophytes were underrated. I haven't ever used them purely as board control props (i.e., without special/heavy weapons), but that seems viable and intensely annoying for most opponents. It's worth a try, for sure.
Benlisted wrote: All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.
Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.
shogun wrote: I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.
That takes me from 80 Infiltrating Neophytes to 50. That could work, to be honest. 50 seems like enough dudes to be plonking in midfield.
MilkmanAl wrote: Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but why is being forced to infiltrate/ambush with the SubUp an issue? They can still go wherever you need them to. I guess things might get a little screwy if your opponent also had a decent amount of infiltrators, but I don't see the problem otherwise.
It's a situational annoyance rather than a crippling flaw, but it's something I could live without. SubUps are my primary source of Claw-Morphs at the moment, which means I have no choice but to expose them to shooting or trapping from turn one. Sure, you can put them in a corner, but if some smartass drops a Pod on top of them or Scouts a White Scars Gladius on top of you they can end up stuck on the table, where they can be chewed up handily.
Keeping them off-deck isn't always the best idea - in fact it's very rarely a good idea to reserve anything from the Insurrection - but I want the option.
I've always thought Neophytes were underrated. I haven't ever used them purely as board control props (i.e., without special/heavy weapons), but that seems viable and intensely annoying for most opponents. It's worth a try, for sure.
Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.
shogun wrote: I think I would like the amount of neophytes but I would lose one doting throng and put these neophytes in the CAD's. Then you could use these acolytes to form a new subup with your cult mutants metamorphs. Yes, I also don't like the forced cult ambush deployment but only turbo boosting units or FMC with summoning should be problem and against them you could infiltrate you're doting throng neophytes and block them 6 inch from your subup units.Half the time its better for GSC to deploy and go into the shadows and start playing the second turn so the subup are still a good addition.
That takes me from 80 Infiltrating Neophytes to 50. That could work, to be honest. 50 seems like enough dudes to be plonking in midfield.
Yea, but you also get 3x5 acolytes with 2xd6 cult ambush and the 2x5 metamorph's get an extra dice. Don't forget that the 'mutants' and 'doting throng' got no first turn shrouded. Also nice to have 40 neophytes with objective secured. and 50 neophytes with infiltrate gives you enough units for your patriarch's to join.
Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.
Mining lasers: accept no substitute! Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I find myself jamming up close combat space pretty frequently. It's nice to have some potent firepower to at least threaten things with - plinking wounds off MCs here and there or maybe popping a transport to assault the juicy insides. Yeah, they're no Tau, but any unit throwing out a couple S9 AP2 shots is at least on the threat radar.
Really? I can't bring myself to use them as anything other than chaff. I'm used to Wolves and Sisters so BS3 shooting makes me very angry. Big blobs with Grenade launchers/ Webbers and Seismics are neat Summoning options but I'd never pay the points for those weapons.
Mining lasers: accept no substitute! Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I find myself jamming up close combat space pretty frequently. It's nice to have some potent firepower to at least threaten things with - plinking wounds off MCs here and there or maybe popping a transport to assault the juicy insides. Yeah, they're no Tau, but any unit throwing out a couple S9 AP2 shots is at least on the threat radar.
I really just can't see the appeal of heavy weapons as much as I want to. Having to snapshoot them after ambushing just kills them for me. The one I am considering is autocannon teams, just cos they're so cheap - 10pts for 2 str7ap4 shots vs 30pts for 2 str9ap2 with far shorter range. Them and GLs gives you 4 high str shots per squad for 20pts, which isn't awful.
Has anyone seen the highest placing cult list from LVO? Used pretty much 50:50 cult and guard armoured company, using BS4 vanquishers with coaxial stubbers to twinlink the main gun, and beast hunter shells (an instant death ap2 small blast iirc). If you really want armour dealt with or are thinking of taking cult russes, they may well be a better option!
Benlisted wrote: All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.
Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.
Are we implying that the Patriarch can join the Skytyrant's unit in the first place? The formation allows the MC to be attached to the gargs, but since it's still a MC, the patriarch still doesn't have permission to join. Also - they aren't Battle Brothers, so I don't even know why I'm asking. haha. I love the idea of this, especially if you could Invis this unit. Wow - GW dropped the ball with that Battle Brother call with Nids and GSC. They could had a chance to make them slightly competitive. XD
Benlisted wrote: All true, but 6pt bodies with a 12" move is something cult don't have. And cult can easily handle the stuff that would give him problems - get a patriarch with free LoS into the challenge and let the flyrant do work.
Very good points. A Jump unit with a footprint that big would come in very handy indeed. They're also packing bolt pistols iirc, which aren't fantastic, but if you're firing 20+ at once I imagine they'd do a job.
Are we implying that the Patriarch can join the Skytyrant's unit in the first place? The formation allows the MC to be attached to the gargs, but since it's still a MC, the patriarch still doesn't have permission to join. Also - they aren't Battle Brothers, so I don't even know why I'm asking. haha. I love the idea of this, especially if you could Invis this unit. Wow - GW dropped the ball with that Battle Brother call with Nids and GSC. They could had a chance to make them slightly competitive. XD
Nah, just that cos cult is so mobile and the skytyrant brood so large, you can easily get a patriarch into a problem combat to soak a challenge. And yeah, it was profoundly disappointing but that's the way it goes - at least cult are good in and of themselves!
As for lists, my drafted 1850 is something like this:
Cult Insurrection detachment:
Brood cycle
3x5 acolytes
5 metas (whips)
5 purestrains
10 neophytes w shotguns
20 neophytes w autoguns
Iconward
Lords of the cult
Lvl2 Patriarch
Lvl2 Magos w crouchling
Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
3x5 metas (claws)
Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
3x5 metas (claws)
Sub uprising
2x5 acolytes
2x5 metas (claws)
1x10 metas w icon (claws)
Primus
CAD Lvl2 Patriarch
Lvl2 Magos
2x10 neophytes w autoguns and AC Aegis w comms
Basically, maxed out cult ambush rolls. This list gets 40 rolls on the ambush table, so statistically should expect 6-7 6s if everything ambushes. Intent is that the two patriarchs go with the insurrection neophytes, warlord with the 20 man squad for more wounds, and the other in the shotguns for potential melee - Magi go in the neophytes in the CAD who want to sit back much more. Aegis seems mandatory with so many uprising models forced to start on the board, and neophytes can provide a screen if the enemy has things like jetbikes that can prvent rtts.
Also easy enough to swap an uprising for another CAD with 2x magos and 20 neophytes if you prefer more mastery levels and more obsec.
Saythings wrote: In the FAQ, didn't they state you have to roll for each GSC unit one at a time, deploy, then roll the next GSU unit? If this is the case, you have no idea how many 6's you are going to roll by the end of your deployment. AKA - you might not ever know how many 6s you'll get Turn1 (deployment) or Turn2 & on.
A GSC army should not be fixated on the '6' results. First turn GSC army is all about getting close with cult ambush deployment and having shrouded/stealth when facing the enemies first turn. Then the second turn everybody can assault. But you really have to calculate what happens if the seize. If the enemy begins then you have to face two rounds of shooting. If this means that you can take the objectives for two turns and it really helps than it could be worth it.
BBAP wrote: Nids don't really do anything GSC can't do better, and the stuff that does add something, like Flyrants, is sickeningly expensive. 250pts seems like a massive investment for 4 T6 wounds to me, even if they are only hit on a 6+.
I think the best way to do GSC allies is to run the AM/ Nids as your primary and throw in a cut-down Insurrection as Allies.
I think that Nids could be a nice addition. something like;
Not only that but your Cult Insurrection detachment means those mawlocs are arriving on a 4+ which kind of blows.
Thankfully not.
'An Uprising Generations in the Making' affects 'your opponent'. Not enemy units. So allies get to arrive normally.
It's also mentioned in the FAQ.
Q: Does the An Uprising Generations in the Making rule affect
Allies of Convenience?
A: No – they gain neither the benefit of being part of the
Genestealer Cult force, nor the penalty your opponent’s
Reserve Rolls will suffer.
IVIOOSE wrote: Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.
what do your lists look like?
.....
I'am really starting to like the Psykana division.
When I'am losing with my GSC army it goes like this:
Scenario 1: First turn in their face. It's a big bloody fight but the GSC are getting all the mealstrom points but at turn 3 the balance shifts and the army is starting to crumble. After that the enemy got all the time to claim mealstrom from that point on and end their game with having most objectives.
Scenario 2: Go into the shadows first turn and start playing the second turn. Almost always the best way to do it, but that also means that the enemy is totally free to claim mealstrom objectives in the first two turns. If the GSC want a 20-0 victory than the got a lot of work to do from that point on.
My army got 4 psykers with 9 powers and summoning is a very big deal. With 4 psykers I get 8+d6 warp charge and most times it all goes into summoning or mind control. But if I don't get summoning then I'am really missing something against the big lists. And thats either a bit of punch or more bodies.
With the Psykana division I got the summoning certainty and a lot more dice. I can keep the psykers behind my defence line and start summoning at a flank. If my GSC-psykers got no summoning than I can also use more dice for other stuff like mind control. I would then focus my summoning on fast units like seekers, screamers, bloodthirsters or LOC's.
First round psychic phase would look like this:
6 warpcharge GSC-psykers + 7 warpcharge from the Psykana division + d6 = about an average 16 warp charge. I could spend 5 warpcharge on every psyker unit and create 3x5 seekers in the first turn. Thats a nice addition and a unit that can help out the GSC very fast with 6+d6 run move. Yes, I could get 35 acolytes for this amount of points put the daemons are a little more flexible with having the right tools at the right time. If my Psykana division can summon two turns then the already got their points back and more. The increase in warpdice also helps against daemons.
If I want to go into the shadows first turn and fear a lot of (indirect)shooting then I'am going to keep my psykers in reserve and let them walk on the table behind my defence line with a reroll from my comm relay.
I think I'am going for this list and start testing:
I get wanting to have an extra source of bodies but I just don't think Summoning Daemons is a good idea. One Eye Open on its own is enough of a pain, but on top of that the FAQ only says Allies of Convenience don't interfere with RttS - CTA Allies still do. Creating extra no-go areas is a recipe for disaster, and it's all well and good thinking you can avoid that by separating your army, but the fact is these are two halves of a whole and they're both fighting the same opponent. In scenarios where control of specific board sections is required, or if you end up in one of those games where someone just wants to fist-fight with your army for whatever reason, at best the Daemons will be an irrelevance and at worst they'll actively hinder your play by forcing you to micromanage the two parts around each other.
One of the things I'm considering trying out is a full-AM Castellans detachment. As far as I can gather the detachment is factionless, so as long as all the models in it are AM then it's perfectly legal. Not sure how I'd set it up yet (2-4 Primaris Psykers plus Veterans most likely), but endlessly-replenishing Troops sounds okay to me. 5+ isn't great odds, but the opponent can't block it like they can with Summoning.
BBAP wrote: I get wanting to have an extra source of bodies but I just don't think Summoning Daemons is a good idea. One Eye Open on its own is enough of a pain, but on top of that the FAQ only says Allies of Convenience don't interfere with RttS - CTA Allies still do. Creating extra no-go areas is a recipe for disaster, and it's all well and good thinking you can avoid that by separating your army, but the fact is these are two halves of a whole and they're both fighting the same opponent. In scenarios where control of specific board sections is required, or if you end up in one of those games where someone just wants to fist-fight with your army for whatever reason, at best the Daemons will be an irrelevance and at worst they'll actively hinder your play by forcing you to micromanage the two parts around each other.
I think it's not (only) about getting extra bodies but getting some extra muscle. I hope to create the situation that the opponent is forced to shoot down the GSC and can do nothing about the daemons in the backfield that are getting ready for the second wave. If I'am facing an army that wants to fistfight then there is a good reason for them to do it. Once was facing a baronial court that got overwatch and I really struggled against them because I could not get enough GSC units in close combat to put them down. Overwatch + 3 attacks + stomp can really hurt and a knight with only one HP left is still just as dangerous.
The Eldar army that I was facing at a tournament got first turn and I was forced to start playing the second turn. We were playing the mission that you could steal mealstrom objective markers from each other and he got the first two turns to just grab anything he could. So if I wanted a 20-0 win I really needed to make up for it.
Then he moved in a big bubble because he knew he was going to lose a few units but at least he got the room to move around his remaining units and start tearing it apart.
I was forced to deploy the GSC all over the place because I could not let him move away and shoot without some assault pressure nearby. After that my GSC units can only move 6 inch and got limited assault without fleet. Maybe with daemons I could deploy in their face more often and afford to lose more bodies because I got two LOC flying in or 3x5 seekers closing in fast.
I think a flexible daemon summoning battery could really help and that the pro's outweigh the con's. I'am not that worried about rtts because the GSC could just rtts before the daemon moves closer or after the daemon moves away. The one thing that does suck, could be the deep strike mishap that gives your opponent the opportunity to place the daemon model between a bunch of GSC-units forcing a lot of 'one eye open tests'.
I would start rolling for the magus to see if I get summoning and maybe switch to telepathy or biomancy to try to get feel no pain or invisibility if I do. But if I don't then worst case scenario I have to cast 3x seekers or screamers first turn and every turn after that.
One of the things I'm considering trying out is a full-AM Castellans detachment. As far as I can gather the detachment is factionless, so as long as all the models in it are AM then it's perfectly legal. Not sure how I'd set it up yet (2-4 Primaris Psykers plus Veterans most likely), but endlessly-replenishing Troops sounds okay to me. 5+ isn't great odds, but the opponent can't block it like they can with Summoning.
But isn't the replenishment arriving from your table edge? Do you expect them to do a lot in this case?
BBAP wrote: I get wanting to have an extra source of bodies but I just don't think Summoning Daemons is a good idea. One Eye Open on its own is enough of a pain, but on top of that the FAQ only says Allies of Convenience don't interfere with RttS - CTA Allies still do. Creating extra no-go areas is a recipe for disaster, and it's all well and good thinking you can avoid that by separating your army, but the fact is these are two halves of a whole and they're both fighting the same opponent. In scenarios where control of specific board sections is required, or if you end up in one of those games where someone just wants to fist-fight with your army for whatever reason, at best the Daemons will be an irrelevance and at worst they'll actively hinder your play by forcing you to micromanage the two parts around each other.
One of the things I'm considering trying out is a full-AM Castellans detachment. As far as I can gather the detachment is factionless, so as long as all the models in it are AM then it's perfectly legal. Not sure how I'd set it up yet (2-4 Primaris Psykers plus Veterans most likely), but endlessly-replenishing Troops sounds okay to me. 5+ isn't great odds, but the opponent can't block it like they can with Summoning.
I believe castellans detachment requires you to take 2 factions minimum.
shogun wrote:I think it's not (only) about getting extra bodies but getting some extra muscle. I hope to create the situation that the opponent is forced to shoot down the GSC and can do nothing about the daemons in the backfield that are getting ready for the second wave.
I can't see how that would work myself. Anyone capable of shooting down the GSC - which really isn't difficult - won't struggle to blow up 20 Flesh Hounds, and that's the toughest prospect you can generate with four casts of Summoning. Even four casts isn't guaranteed; the Psykana generates a lot of Warp Charge, but it's pretty fragile, especially when you're rolling on Malefic. Lose a Wyrdvane and your WC pool drops by one; lose 6 and it drops by two. Fail a test, a Wyrdvane dies. Roll any doubles to Summon, a Wyrdvane dies. The dudes are T3 5+ too, so if anyone sneezes at them, a Wyrdvane dies. If the Primaris is Summoning he'll likely die off quickly because he doesn't get the 2+ bonus from the Commissar, and if that happens you lose his ML2 plus the Formation bonus WC. If he's not Summoning then you're bringing in even less Daemons every turn.
It's points-intensive, it's creating CTA Allies units on the table with all the nonsense that entails, it's costing you two GSCHQ slots, and the units you're bringing in just aren't that worrisome in the numbers you'll be Summoning. Give it a try by all means, but I think you'd be better off with another GSCCAD with two more Broodmind psykers in it. Two ML2 Patriarchs and 2x5 Acolytes costs 20pts less, generates an extra 4WC, and gives you another two Patriarchs on top of everything else, at the cost of 4 flimsy Warp Charges per turn.
But isn't the replenishment arriving from your table edge? Do you expect them to do a lot in this case?
Depends what you build them for, I guess. Melta death-ride squads probably not; Vets with an Autocannon and two GLs would still be able to contribute.
rawne2510 wrote:I believe castellans detachment requires you to take 2 factions minimum.
Just a random idea. If you could take as many formations as you wanted, do you think a reasonable strategy would just be to take sub uprisings and dispense with the brood cycle? At 1850 you could do:
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 275pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
3 x 5 acolytes 40pts
That's be 205 rending models in 41 MSU units with the double-roll on cult ambush. You'd lose 1st turn shrouded, and replenishing numbers when respawning, but you avoid all tax units for more of what makes GSC good. It'd also be a simple matter to swap out a sub-up for a CAD if you wanted some obsec neophytes and a patriarch or two. You should get 13-14 "6" results on the CA table, which even strong shooting armies might struggle to eliminate in one turn (as it'd be around 70 models that could be killed in groups of five at most)
IVIOOSE wrote: Im curious to know what everyone's GSC army consists of. i think i have my list close to finalized for this years ITC format events. as always though need to see what changes they will make and what changes events will make. kind of a wall of text.
The claw morph loadout here caught my eye. 4 claws to 1 whip is certainly interesting, and something I hadn't considered. Obviously you dilute the power of the morphs vs particularly very heavy armour, and things like WKs, but you get a couple of i7 hits in. Against anything i5-7 that's obviously handy, and whilst you don't get immediate benefits in terms of less morphs dying before they get to attack vs the very common i4, you can reduce incoming damage. Thing is, mass hypnosis, if you have enough psykers, also serves a similar purpose in terms of slowing down marines. Do people think there's merit to this unit composition?
DoomMouse wrote: Just a random idea. If you could take as many formations as you wanted, do you think a reasonable strategy would just be to take sub uprisings and dispense with the brood cycle? At 1850 you could do:
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 275pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
3 x 5 acolytes 40pts
That's be 205 rending models in 41 MSU units with the double-roll on cult ambush. You'd lose 1st turn shrouded, and replenishing numbers when respawning, but you avoid all tax units for more of what makes GSC good. It'd also be a simple matter to swap out a sub-up for a CAD if you wanted some obsec neophytes and a patriarch or two. You should get 13-14 "6" results on the CA table, which even strong shooting armies might struggle to eliminate in one turn (as it'd be around 70 models that could be killed in groups of five at most)
This looks cool but in the end your models keep getting in each others way. Also once thought about this:
Not only that but your Cult Insurrection detachment means those mawlocs are arriving on a 4+ which kind of blows.
Thankfully not.
'An Uprising Generations in the Making' affects 'your opponent'. Not enemy units. So allies get to arrive normally.
It's also mentioned in the FAQ.
Q: Does the An Uprising Generations in the Making rule affect
Allies of Convenience?
A: No – they gain neither the benefit of being part of the
Genestealer Cult force, nor the penalty your opponent’s
Reserve Rolls will suffer.
Oh wow nice! Thanks for pointing that out. This is a nice way for me to pad out points while I paint myself into carpel tunnel syndrome.
I don't like the first curse. It's to unpredictable for that amount of points. Patriarch + 20 genestealers that roll a 1 for cult ambush (So no fearless at the front) or just infiltrate and start walking are not worth it in my opinion. For each 8 genestealer you can have 14 acolytes that can roll 2d6 for cult ambush.
Also, the primus get's killed very fast if he is only joining 5 acolytes/metamorphs. You can almost have another 10 acolytes for that amount of points.
Benlisted wrote: The claw morph loadout here caught my eye. 4 claws to 1 whip is certainly interesting, and something I hadn't considered. Obviously you dilute the power of the morphs vs particularly very heavy armour, and things like WKs, but you get a couple of i7 hits in. Against anything i5-7 that's obviously handy, and whilst you don't get immediate benefits in terms of less morphs dying before they get to attack vs the very common i4, you can reduce incoming damage. Thing is, mass hypnosis, if you have enough psykers, also serves a similar purpose in terms of slowing down marines. Do people think there's merit to this unit composition?
I didn't used to, because of the power thing, but I had a couple of games over the weekend that converted me. A 4:1 or 3:2 ratio of claws to whips is a good idea - lots of I5+ floating around at the moment, and with this new Chilli Yncarne Ynnari Aeldari stuff I reckon there'll be more still. Originally I thought units of Whips and Claws would be the way to go, but now I'm thinking it's a mistake to trust Cult Ambush to deliver such specialised units to where you need them; unit by unit the power is reduced, but you're rarely running these units into anything on their own so overall I don't think you're losing all that much. Being able to slot smug Harlies before they get to swing is very satisfying.
JNAProductions wrote: Is there any point to allying in Celestine or Cawl as part of an IG detachment, to gain access to their relics?
I don't think Allies of any type are a good idea, let alone CTA Allies and especially not ones equipped to do the same things your Cult can do already. You could try it out if you like, but it seems like a bad idea to me. More Hybrids and more HQs is the best way to run GSC in my opinion.
i like having just 1 whip in my units as they are the first to die so my claws can still swing and i keep my killing power in the unit. its also nice to have a whip to cut down eldar when you win combat. anything for a slight boost vs eldar.
i have rarely had problems with my deamons getting in the way of the gsc.
i stack 2 objectives midfield and just summon deamons on them and they sit there while opponent is busy killing other stuff. also having the ability to throw out a unit of pink horrors to stop a deathstar for 2-3 turns is really handy.
im going to start toying with 8 man units of acolytes as you can loose 1-2 of them and still surround a vehile to kill everything inside when you wreck it which is super handy vs a gladius player.
If you're using the Whip as an ablative wound - which isn't a bad idea in an Insurrection unit, I suppose - then you lose the I7 the first time some Guardian gets lucky. 2 Whips means less chance of losing it to random elf-slaps. It also equates to 8 attacks at I7 from a single 5-man unit, which is enough to do a bit of damage. It also means if you're running two units in together you have 16 S4 Rending attacks at I7, which is downright dangerous.
Also, if we're looking for ways to get cheap bodies into play - why not Zoidberg? Two Tervigons and a 30-roach Termagant unit is 510pts, which leaves you 1100-1300pts to build a reasonable Insurrection army around, gives you a couple of 6-wound Monsters to play with, and allows you to flood the table with Gants.
DoomMouse wrote: Just a random idea. If you could take as many formations as you wanted, do you think a reasonable strategy would just be to take sub uprisings and dispense with the brood cycle? At 1850 you could do:
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 315pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
4 x 5 acolytes 40pts
Sub-uprising - 275pts
3 x 5 metamorphs with clawss 55pts
3 x 5 acolytes 40pts
That's be 205 rending models in 41 MSU units with the double-roll on cult ambush. You'd lose 1st turn shrouded, and replenishing numbers when respawning, but you avoid all tax units for more of what makes GSC good. It'd also be a simple matter to swap out a sub-up for a CAD if you wanted some obsec neophytes and a patriarch or two. You should get 13-14 "6" results on the CA table, which even strong shooting armies might struggle to eliminate in one turn (as it'd be around 70 models that could be killed in groups of five at most)
It's great as long as you can go first every turn. The great thing about the big detachment is that all of your subterranean uprising models get shrouded turn 1. So they'll come in mostly intact even if you don't go first. Your list will get hammered if it has to go second.
You could just deploy them at the back and RTTS for a turn two assault if you were going second?
I admit getting seized on would be painful. Shrouding is good, but you sacrifice having more of the dangerous acolytes and metamorphs who roll two CA dice to get it.
Not saying that my list is better than the insurrection, but just a weird possible alternative
I had the chance to play in a tournament this weekend with a 1850 list: broodcycle, first curse, subterranean, and cad with 2 patriarchs to help get extra warp charge. We used the adepticon primer scenarios for the 40k championships.
Some observations that I had.
- Being seized on is really painful. I played against a guard gunline, went first and set up charges and got the dreaded 6. I recovered and ended up winning (thanks first curse) but it was a lesson. I barely used my defense lines due to the amount of riptide SMS and flame throwers (marines) but it makes me wonder if I should just always go 2nd if possible and play the first turn defensive (pull the army off with the exception of 1 unit) and do a coordinated assault turn 2. Potentially I keep the defense lines after all.
- Had a rough go against a white scars battle company with a decent amount of flamers. This is twice now I've struggled against battle company. The sheer amount of obsec transports protecting the tasty biomass inside meant I was getting return fire on a regular basis. It makes me wonder if I should consider some sort of anti-tank at range or just go even heavier MSU with more claw-morphs.
- the first curse did work for me. It seems like a huge point sync, but with the psychic dice I have I can buff it up nicely. It also is a huge intimidation factor.
- I also had a hard time against a riptide wing (with 6 riptides). He combined it with the infiltration cadre, meaning he could deploy off the board with the riptides. As soon as I killed one unit of his infiltration cadre the entire army came in. It kept me from ambushing the riptides. What a brutal army to go against. Had I to do it over, I may have just taken fire, pulled my army off with the exception of one unit and hope that the riptides came in from reserves piecemeal. They're overlapping supporting fire and interceptor is brutal!
- My army wasn't fully painted yet so I hadn't had the time to paint markings on the bases to designate which detachment they were from. I put dice next to each to mark, but it made for some slower then I would like decision making and deploying. I like to fade in and out a lot which means I need very visible identification of which unit is which.
- I'm struggling with the brood cycle. Maybe I'm just not using the iconward effectively (I keep forgetting the furious charge bubble) but he didn't do much. I keep wondering if a neophyte calvacade would speed the game up, and provide more use. Has anyone had positive experiences with the mech portion?
- I'm a fast player but I definitely had to play super fast. I made a cheat sheet that I laminated so I could use a dry erase marker to mark all the spells, effects and reminders. I also created tokens to designate ambush assualt, spell effects, etc. Even with that I felt very rushed playing the game. I need to continue to find time savers, especially if I'm playing an opponent with long phases.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: - Being seized on is really painful. I played against a guard gunline, went first and set up charges and got the dreaded 6. I recovered and ended up winning (thanks first curse) but it was a lesson. I barely used my defense lines due to the amount of riptide SMS and flame throwers (marines) but it makes me wonder if I should just always go 2nd if possible and play the first turn defensive (pull the army off with the exception of 1 unit) and do a coordinated assault turn 2. Potentially I keep the defense lines after all.
That's how I play the army most of the time, minus the Defence Line. You want more than one unit on the table though. Also, once you've dropped one Ambush, don't stop. If your units aren't capping on a flag, locked in CC, about to charge, or getting ready to Summon, then they shouldn't be on the table. That's how you make an army of T3 5+ dudes last for 7 turns - you limit the opponent's opportunities to kill them.
- Had a rough go against a white scars battle company with a decent amount of flamers. This is twice now I've struggled against battle company. The sheer amount of obsec transports protecting the tasty biomass inside meant I was getting return fire on a regular basis. It makes me wonder if I should consider some sort of anti-tank at range or just go even heavier MSU with more claw-morphs.
GSC have no ranged anti-tank. They have some crumby-ass S6-7 shooting on crumby-ass vehicles and units which can't be taken in sufficient numbers, even if you cripple your major strengths - CC, numbers, and Cult Ambush - to try and do it. Acolyte Rending will pop AV10-11 just as easily as Metamorphs will. I'd consider stuffing a buttload more Acolytes into the army before I ever thought about buying upgrades for Neophyte meatshields.
- the first curse did work for me. It seems like a huge point sync, but with the psychic dice I have I can buff it up nicely. It also is a huge intimidation factor.
Right - but I mean, it's 20 Genestealers and a Patriarch. If people don't deal with it it's going to hurt them. The problem with the formation has never been that it sucks or lacks killing power. The problem is it's nowhere near the most efficient use of 400pts in a GSC army, and if you score badly on their Ambush rolls its 400pts that'll never see close combat. You just can't afford to have that much of your army sitting idle, in my book. They're not a great deal tougher or choppier than Acolytes and Metamorphs either.
- I also had a hard time against a riptide wing (with 6 riptides). He combined it with the infiltration cadre, meaning he could deploy off the board with the riptides. As soon as I killed one unit of his infiltration cadre the entire army came in. It kept me from ambushing the riptides. What a brutal army to go against. Had I to do it over, I may have just taken fire, pulled my army off with the exception of one unit and hope that the riptides came in from reserves piecemeal. They're overlapping supporting fire and interceptor is brutal!
Nothing to add here. Tau are a tough prospect, and they're one of the few armies you really need to go first against. Psychic powers help - a single Mass Hypnosis will drop most of their dudes to BS2, which is a big help in keeping the casualties down, Mind Control is unreliable but can be pretty devastating if you land it on a Stormsurge or a powered-up Riptide, and Summoned units don't count as coming in from reserve so they bypass Interceptor. Summoning big Neophyte blobs with Seismic Cannons and Power Pick-swinging Leaders on top of their Suits is a good way to divert their attention quickly. Supporting Fire is one of those things you just have to live with; there are ways to mitigate the damage it does, but it requires a good set of Ambush rolls and some tactical charging tomfoolery.
- My army wasn't fully painted yet so I hadn't had the time to paint markings on the bases to designate which detachment they were from. I put dice next to each to mark, but it made for some slower then I would like decision making and deploying. I like to fade in and out a lot which means I need very visible identification of which unit is which.
Movement trays are the answer. They make the admin much less of a nightmare, especially if your army is unpainted or 90% proxies.
- I'm struggling with the brood cycle. Maybe I'm just not using the iconward effectively (I keep forgetting the furious charge bubble) but he didn't do much. I keep wondering if a neophyte calvacade would speed the game up, and provide more use. Has anyone had positive experiences with the mech portion?
Rule number 1 of Genestealer Cults is: more bodies. That's also rule number 2, 3, 4 and 5. The Neophyte Cavalcade isn't any cheaper than a bare-bones Brood Cycle and demands hundreds of points be spent on vehicles, which suck ass, instead of Acolytes and Metamorphs, which don't. The Cavalcade doesn't plug any of the holes in the GSC Codex - it just opens some new ones by cutting down the number of casualties you can take each turn before you start hurting for dudes.
The Iconward is exactly as useless as the other HQ characters; he exists to eat wounds and provide buffs, and if he spends the whole game doing that then he's done his job. The Brood Cycle is actually a really neat formation once you remember to apply all the buffs the units give to one another; +1WS makes Acolytes and Metamorphs into Genestealers, and the +1Ld often means you can leave the Cycle dudes to fight on their own while your Patriarchs go elsewhere to do other things.
- I'm a fast player but I definitely had to play super fast. I made a cheat sheet that I laminated so I could use a dry erase marker to mark all the spells, effects and reminders. I also created tokens to designate ambush assualt, spell effects, etc. Even with that I felt very rushed playing the game. I need to continue to find time savers, especially if I'm playing an opponent with long phases.
Again, nothing to add here. GSC are a big army with lots of dice, so they take a long time to play. Movement trays speed up the moving and Ambushing, but they don't help with all the dice-rolling you have to do.
So, I played against the new eldar this weekend and thought I'd give my two cents.
As other posts have mentioned, getting seized on is absolutely brutal. So much so that I have started preferring to defer first turn and play the hiding game. Which also guarantees we get in a few more turns before time is an issue. Though maelstrom can be a problem if they run up the score a ton. I generally leave a psyker on the board with a meat shield and they summon a squad for linebreaker or contest an objective the opponent thought they could easily grab.
So, the new eldar. Pretty brutal. Not for the reason you probably think though.
They make close combat eldar a real possibility, banshees, kymeras, even wytches are now possible to field. These are pretty bad for GSC as they go first in close combat with a bunch of attacks, which is pretty much our worse nightmare.
So the army I've moved towards is a
bare bones Broodcycle except for 4 mining lasers with the neophytes
sub up
primus
20x acolytes
5 x acolytes
10 x metamorphs
doting throng
magus
10x acolytes
10x acolytes
10 x acolytes
10 x acolytes
So it's 167 models with 60 of them being neophytes. I'm loving the neophytes btw, they really balance out the weak spots of the army.
so for the new eldar, they're going to have units that beat you in assault so you need to gun those down with neophytes or avoid them all together.
Something to keep track off is that the normal strategy of sending in a weakened unit with 1-3 models left to eat overwatch, will no longer work. It will cause a strength from death and probably ruin your day.
(although I just realized I could have moved backwards and tried an 8 inch charge. That would have allowed me to eat overwatch without causing strength from death)
I fought the guy I played to a tie and did it by picking away at the edges of his army. I only assaulted units that were by themselves or I could comfortably multi assault.
I used my lasgun neophtes to kill 2/3 bikes from a jetbike squad. I killed his individual kymeras running around whenever they were outside 7 inches.
It's a much more careful game but totally possible.
I didn't get to use it because my psykers kept dying but using mass hypnosis on eldar close combat units is incredibly effective. They're stuff drops from I5 to 4 and most of it only has 2 attacks so you half the amount of damage coming your way and now you're hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s and 2s.
Also the new monstrous creature is brutal against small squads but if you can hit him with a big squad he dies pretty easily. Basically an unbuffed daemon prince. The worst part of the new eldar is they get a really great nova on their chart that several psykers have to roll on. Thankfully I have 12 dice in my army and adwill everywhere so he just kept wasting his psykich phase trying to get me with that.
thoughts? it plays cagey and just rolls for summoning with the two characters out of the gsc. coteaz is there for more dice and the reroll seize or anto seize
thoughts? it plays cagey and just rolls for summoning with the two characters out of the gsc. coteaz is there for more dice and the reroll seize or anto seize
I've you don't get first turn then your in trouble. You are forced to deploy the subterranean uprising and only got 1 fearless bubble in the whole army. If you always deploy in their face then a reroll seize is not reliable. If you want to do this then It's better to put the Patriarch + 2x acolytes in a CAD because then you can reroll on the strategic trait and that doubles your chance for +1 seize. Patriarch can join the genestealers with first turn shrouded anyway.
Also, 6 warpcharge is a bit weak even if you do get summoning. I would trade a single subterranean uprising for;
I like it. It's pretty much exactly what I'd run if I had the models. I'd consider bumping a neophyte unit up to 20 to hide the patriarch in in exchange for one sub up squad?
Another option could be to use some of the codex: inquisition henchmen warbands for cheap warp charge. Two acolytes with bolters plus a psyker is 20pts, which would be an easy way to boost some charges
I did once versus a Genestealer-spam army; two First Curses, a bunch of random Purestrain units and a couple of SubUps with Primuses. It was... not fun. We only managed two and a half turns in two hours of playing. I didn't have the hitting power to kill his Stealers, but he didn't have the Warp Charge to stop me Summoning, so we ended up in a gakky stalemate where I was trying to goad him into charging his Stealers into awkward positions and he was trying to maneuver around all the Summoned crap to assault the stuff I was trying to protect. I had him 6-2 on the Maelstrom objective, but I was 4 or 5 behind on KPs by the end of his third turn and there was no way I could've won that.
I've had a couple of GSC vs GSC games. Deployment was very interesting. Positioning and counter-positioning. Holding back on your more valuable units until the opponent has played out theirs. Capitalizing on mistakes in enemy placements. Blocking RTTS. It's practically a game before the game has started.
Both games were in a doubles tournament I went to recently. 800 points per player, 1600 per side. I was GSC paired with necrons. Both games I had against GSC were against double GSC.
I was playing Brood Cycle + a Sub Up (2 units of acolytes, 2 of claw morphs), a patriarch and a magus. Necron allies were 2 units of three wraiths, a big 9 man lychguard unit with a cryptek (with the teleportation artifact), and a couple of units of immortals.
The GSC in the first game I played had invested in big units. A first curse, a 20 man acolyte blob, a bunch of 5 man units loaded with upgrades like saws and hand flamers.
We were going first. They rolled a 6 for their warlord trait, so dropped the first curse in front of the lychguard deathstar. Their 20 man acolyte unit rolled a 6, and went next to it.
I also rolled a 6 for my warlord trait. After their 20 man acolyte blob was baited out, I put my patriarch + 5 genestealers next to it.
On turn 1, my patriarch + genies charged the 20 man acolyte unit, and a unit of necron wraiths hit it from the other side. I killed 15 guys on the charge, and the wraiths mopped up the other 5. Purestrains really do tear through acolytes.
They drastically underestimated how tough lychguard are. Our lychguard charged their first curse (the other unit of wraiths came along too), took 2 casualties, then killed about 7 genestealers. The wraiths killed another 4 or 5.
After that, the rest of the game was just about mopping up survivors.
The second game didn't go our way. The opponents were playing MSU cult. They rolled summoning on pretty much all their psykers. I didn't get it at all. They got to go first.
I made the huge mistake of making my (non sub-up) units cult ambush against a superior GSC force. This meant that they got to go first, and then on my first turn I still could not assault except with units that rolled a 6. This allowed them to show up, shoot every unit of mine that rolled a 6, charge some of my units, and then I could not counter charge until turn 2. Deploying my forces normally would have given me a vastly stronger counter charge.
Despite all this, we still managed to play to the objectives well, and came close to winning it. The 20 man neophyte blobs being repeatedly summoned all around the board proved too much in the end though.
vercingatorix wrote:I thought you needed to have him in an inquisition detachment which is an HQ and an elite.
True, but that detachment requires a minimum single HQ (so thats coteaz right there) and can add another HQ and 0-3 elites.
Arson Fire wrote:I've had a couple of GSC vs GSC games.
GSC versus GSC is all about the initiative and I'am not only referring to the Initiative in close combat. It's not about lucky '6' result on the cult ambush but about the right counter attack at the right time. Psychic powers are a big deal and can really shift the balance. If you got GSC + necron versus full GSC it is even better to just walk forward and be prepared to take incoming '6' results and counterattack from that point on. Don't be afraid to lose something and don't be afraid to counterattack a big genestealer unit with numbers.
But if the enemy GSC army got summoning and you don't then that is a tough cookie.
thoughts? it plays cagey and just rolls for summoning with the two characters out of the gsc. coteaz is there for more dice and the reroll seize or anto seize
This list is pretty close to the one I have planned for when I get the time to paint a hundred+ models. One thing you need to bear in mind though is your sub uprisings have to deploy on the board - that's 120 models you need to place, and likely another few from the brood cycle to hide the patriarch and iconward in to buff morale. Not only is that going to take ages but it'll occupy a huge amount of space and could mean you are forced to bunch up - unless you go first, this could be a big problem. Like shogun said I'd be inclined to swap a sub uprising (and possibly the third acolyte unit in your uprisings) for a CAD to get another fearless bubble, more psychic powers, some obsec and a defence line that gives you a good deployment option when going second.
New to the boards (long time lurker). I've been trying out different ideas with GCS for a few months now, and it might just be my local meta of armies but I'm finding myself pushed very strongly in the direction of Demo-charges on my Acolytes (post FAQ, which allows you to move into range after setting up) and large numbers of Neophytes.
I expected GSC to be all about a melee alpha strike, but I'm finding more and more the shooting element comes out on top as it's just more likely to do something from the start.
I'm not removing the melee elements from my lists (still running a large Uprising), but even the melee units are starting to bring guns (or bombs; that Uprising has Demo-charges as well...).
After a fashion. I can't stand GSC vehicles and begrudge paying for wargear on my basic dudes because BS3 is depressing, but I find Summoned firepower Neophytes very useful indeed.
A quick question. What do you folks think of adding a Psykana Division? My current list involves an MSU Insurrection (A Brood Cycle, Sub Up, and a Doting Throng) + 2 CAD (One with Magus, Patriarch, and Neophytes, other with 2 Magus and Acolytes). I could basically drop one of the CADs to take the formation instead. I'd be losing a bunch of my Ob sec and a fearless bubble, but I'd gain an additional 4 warp charges to fuel summoning/buffing, and I'd likely roll on Malefic, and start summoning Daemons if things turn sideways. I kinda like the idea, any thoughts?
The idea is that, if my 4 GSC psykers don't have any summons, or die, that they can use those charges. They're mainly to be a warp charge battery, with a back plan that involves them either bringing in more bodies, or exploding into a greater daemon.
The idea is that, if my 4 GSC psykers don't have any summons, or die, that they can use those charges. They're mainly to be a warp charge battery, with a back plan that involves them either bringing in more bodies, or exploding into a greater daemon.
It's been discussed in this topic, and I can give you a quick good/bad/ugly list.
good:
- Always got summoning and the battery can summon daemons to bring in a second wave (flank) apart from Genestealer cult.
- Possible possession to get cheap bloodthirster and/or lord of change.
Bad:
- These 300+ points can also give you 37 acolytes that can stand side to side with the GSC army at the start of turn 1.
- very fragile (barrage fire)
- 300 points can also pay for more magus psykers that increas your warpcharge to almost the same level and get's you more possibility for GSC summoning (which is better if you got the models).
Ugly:
- One eye open rule really limits your movement/game play.
If you use it for a warp charge battery, then I think your better of getting more magus psykers. If you want to bring in a daemon army at a particular flank you should summon flesh hounds/seekers and plague drones/screamers to make sure the move in fast to keep up with the GSC-units. If you don't have a lot of these units (including two blood thirsters) then I would not bother. slow walking daemon units (horrors, daemonettes, plaguebearers) cannot keep up and are not good compared to 37 acolytes.
Good points. It's 280 points for the detachment, so it's basically equal to a CAD in points, which is 4 warp charge (as opposed to 8), but it's also 2 more rolls on Broodmind, and Ob Sec that I can ambush right on to an objective. Much to consider here. I'll read back in the thread to see the larger discussion.
I wouldn't try actually adding Daemons to my army, just summoning some. I don't feel like adding a CtA ally and paying points for it would be worthwhile, bringing them in from a flank to block in an enemy unit could be potentially clutch.
Bi'ios wrote: Good points. It's 280 points for the detachment, so it's basically equal to a CAD in points, which is 4 warp charge (as opposed to 8), but it's also 2 more rolls on Broodmind, and Ob Sec that I can ambush right on to an objective. Much to consider here. I'll read back in the thread to see the larger discussion.
I wouldn't try actually adding Daemons to my army, just summoning some. I don't feel like adding a CtA ally and paying points for it would be worthwhile, bringing them in from a flank to block in an enemy unit could be potentially clutch.
It's not only about the amount of warp charge but also what you do with it. And don't forget, the first perils that kills a psyker reduces the warpcharge with 1 right away.
That's 14 warpcharge versus 10 and let's add a 4 result (d6).
With 14 warp charge the 5 GSC psykers can cast 1 big lvl3 summoning + other small power or 2x lvl 2 summoning.
With 18 warp charge the psykana combo can:
1: Use all warp charge to cast 2x GSC summoning but that is very unlikely. Your lucky if you get 1 GSC summoning power.
2: Use warp charge to cast one GSC summoning and 2 small GSC powers
3: Use warp charge to cast 3x daemonic summoning and deploy 3x fleshhounds.
4: Use warp charge to cast possession on psyker (he can borrow this power from other psykers) and after that also cast possession on psyker unit. Deploy 2 bloodthirsters.
When you look at scenario 1 and 2 it's not really that good if you compare it with the 5 GSC psykers and the 18 extra acolytes that you can have at the start of turn 1. Most times I cannot even cast anything besides 1 summoning because the enemy will use his deny-dice for the small stuff if the GSC summoning is to much to counter.
Scenario 3 and 4 can be good if the daemon units can keep on summoning for 3+ turns but like I said, you need to have the models for that. But even if you do it's=
3 turns x 3 daemon summoning = 9x5 fleshounds = 45 fleshhounds
3 turns x 1 GSC summoning = 20 neophytes + 10 metamorphs + 10 metamorphs all tooled up (for example) + extra 18 acolytes from turn 1.
Yes, fleshhounds got 2 wounds but the daemon units you cast from turn 3 onwards might not even do anything usefull.
Best case scenario is nr: 4 and deploy 2x bloodthirster at turn 1.
Talking about daemons: I've been thinking about making a big ass monstrous Patriarch/tyranid model as a count as skarbrand. If I get in a tournament that allows come to the apocalypse allies I might put it in there for fun. It's not even that bad for only 225 points and giving all enemy units/GSC units rage and hatred. I would always put GSC units in the shadow/ongoing reserves turn 1 and deep strike skarbrand on the field and then deploy the GSC units around him second turn.
I've been running 5 magus and a patriarch in my list and really liking the flexibility of having all those psykers. Most games (93% odds) I get at least 1 summoning.
The primaris power is really great if you're playing against an army that doesn't have many psykers (battle company, especially lions blade)
And Shogun didn't even mention what i've found to be incredibly useful, the adwill bubble.
That adwill bubble plus having so many psykers and dice has saved me in multiple games. Daemons flying around trying to cast novas? Block all the novas. Eldar player trying to cast apoclyptic blast on you? blocked.
I've literally only had one nova go off against me and I've blocked a half dozen and two apoc blasts from eldar. That's 4 or 5 games I would have surely lost if I wasn't able to block on 4s.
So yeah, so far I've found the best defense against Daemons is magus's. They really shine by forcing the daemon player to summon or throw a gob load of dice at witchfires.
And Shogun didn't even mention what i've found to be incredibly useful, the adwill bubble.
That adwill bubble plus having so many psykers and dice has saved me in multiple games. Daemons flying around trying to cast novas? Block all the novas. Eldar player trying to cast apoclyptic blast on you? blocked.
I've literally only had one nova go off against me and I've blocked a half dozen and two apoc blasts from eldar. That's 4 or 5 games I would have surely lost if I wasn't able to block on 4s.
So yeah, so far I've found the best defense against Daemons is magus's. They really shine by forcing the daemon player to summon or throw a gob load of dice at witchfires.
That's true but even with psykana division you can still field 2x magus with 12 inch adwill bubble and get more counter dice, so thats not really a dealbreaker.
And Shogun didn't even mention what i've found to be incredibly useful, the adwill bubble.
That adwill bubble plus having so many psykers and dice has saved me in multiple games. Daemons flying around trying to cast novas? Block all the novas. Eldar player trying to cast apoclyptic blast on you? blocked.
I've literally only had one nova go off against me and I've blocked a half dozen and two apoc blasts from eldar. That's 4 or 5 games I would have surely lost if I wasn't able to block on 4s.
So yeah, so far I've found the best defense against Daemons is magus's. They really shine by forcing the daemon player to summon or throw a gob load of dice at witchfires.
That's true but even with psykana division you can still field 2x magus with 12 inch adwill bubble and get more counter dice, so thats not really a dealbreaker.
Yeah, that's true. With 5 though I never had to worry about magus placement though, 5 means they're damn near everywhere, I was always covered. It also went well with having 40 acolytes in the doting throng but that's getting a little specific.
I tend to lose 1 a turn to their squads getting killed because in order for the adwill bubble to be useful you gotta be up in the action. If you have two and you opponent prioritizes them they won't last long. I think it comes down to redundancy and player style.
Personally, I have to worry enough about bubbles and planning ahead with 4 ICs with bubbles, mixing in CTA allies (besides coteaz to hide in the corner) just adds to the thinking. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, in fact I think it would work quite well, but I don't know if it work that well in a tournament setting.
On a saturday afternoon with 4 hours and time to think and guaranteed you're getting 5-7 turns, I think it would be absolutely brutal. However, that's not the environment I'm list building for.
I think it would work quite well, but I don't know if it work that well in a tournament setting.
Which means it wouldn't work well, right?
I like the idea of having a bunch of Maguses (Magi?) around for adwill, but fearless on a combat beatstick is also pretty darn handy. Sure, the Patriarch is more points, but it's very nice to slap something into combat that won't just instantly crumble against anything that gets to hit back. That's what all the Neophytes with him are for.
I think it would work quite well, but I don't know if it work that well in a tournament setting.
Which means it wouldn't work well, right?
I like the idea of having a bunch of Maguses (Magi?) around for adwill, but fearless on a combat beatstick is also pretty darn handy. Sure, the Patriarch is more points, but it's very nice to slap something into combat that won't just instantly crumble against anything that gets to hit back. That's what all the Neophytes with him are for.
Essentially yes, but if you say something that looks like it is good on paper won't work, it tends to soothe over feelings by specifying your reasons!
And yeah, I just looked at what my list was having trouble dealing with decided that bodies was the best and most available solution, so cheaper HQs facilitate more bodies in the list and magus's also bring summoning for more bodies.
The fearless bubble is necessary as well which is why I gave up the extra roll on the cult ambush by taking them out of the sub up rising and putting them in the doting throng.
It's also pretty funny when my opponent blocks the run and charge power, I cast it again, fail, then say "reroll for doting throng". Those moments are why we play right!
Has anyone tried allied Coteaz to keep from getting seized on as well as some extra warp charge? I guess you could run him and some cheap henchmen squads with psychics to generate warp charge. Camp him on anew objective with some plasma cannon servitors and it'll keep others away.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Has anyone tried allied Coteaz to keep from getting seized on as well as some extra warp charge? I guess you could run him and some cheap henchmen squads with psychics to generate warp charge. Camp him on anew objective with some plasma cannon servitors and it'll keep others away.
I mostly play tournaments that don't allow 'come the apocalypse' allies but if I could then I would bring a solo Coteaz. Henchmen are cheap warp charge but I would rather have another lvl 2 magus then another 3 warp charge. I don't need 1 extra warp charge I need GSC summoning. With coteaz I think every GSC list would have at least 2x patriarch + 1x magus(croughling) so that's 8 warp charge + d6 and most times I would use all that warp charge to get summoning anyway.
Why would you add plasmacannon henchmen? It gets expensive very fast and there is not a lot that plasmacannons can handle better then my acolytes/metamorph's. I also like the option to 'go into the shadows' first turn and start playing the second turn. With plasma henchmen on the field the would die right away.
So this is actually what I'm bringing to adepticon because they do allow CTA allies. I'm attaching him to a unit of Ultramarine Quad Guns and making the ultramarine librarian my warlord. Basically trying my best to go first and win there. I figure with full powered invis and rerollable 2+, GSC doesn't really have a chance after the opponent gets a psychic phase and it's a much less stressful army. You set up to go first every time and play from there.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Has anyone tried allied Coteaz to keep from getting seized on as well as some extra warp charge? I guess you could run him and some cheap henchmen squads with psychics to generate warp charge. Camp him on anew objective with some plasma cannon servitors and it'll keep others away.
I mostly play tournaments that don't allow 'come the apocalypse' allies but if I could then I would bring a solo Coteaz. Henchmen are cheap warp charge but I would rather have another lvl 2 magus then another 3 warp charge. I don't need 1 extra warp charge I need GSC summoning. With coteaz I think every GSC list would have at least 2x patriarch + 1x magus(croughling) so that's 8 warp charge + d6 and most times I would use all that warp charge to get summoning anyway.
Why would you add plasmacannon henchmen? It gets expensive very fast and there is not a lot that plasmacannons can handle better then my acolytes/metamorph's. I also like the option to 'go into the shadows' first turn and start playing the second turn. With plasma henchmen on the field the would die right away.
I figured I would want to be able to shoot things that deepstrike near Coteaz. Attaching him to a squad of servitors would give him something to shoot at. Ultimately I think it's too much work though, I plan on just spamming Sub-T formations.
Everything gets a roll on the Cult Ambush table, so there is every possibility that with the first turn I could deal a lot of damage to a small, elite force right off the starting line.
Patriarch Phyrx wrote: I've got a Kill Team tournament on Tuesday, not particularly hardcore, and expecting to see a good variety of factions in the mix.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to run the 14 Genestealer configuration (below), what do we think? Has anyone had much KT experience with GSC?
Everything gets a roll on the Cult Ambush table, so there is every possibility that with the first turn I could deal a lot of damage to a small, elite force right off the starting line.
The 5++ and Stealth should also be pretty handy.
I think kill team can be fun if everybody stick to a balanced list with a bit of shooting and close combat. If you go for a competitive list then you will get a lot of 'paper/rock/scissors' situations. This is a very straightforward 'in your face' genestealer list and it will wreck a lot of basic list's but a sucky cult ambush could mean you end up coming in small chunks and taken down.
- 8 screamers
- chimera filled with shootie Inquisitor henchmen
- tau suits with burst cannons and flamers
Lot of good KT lists out there.
I think I would rather go for a neophyte unit (shotgun/grenade launcher/stubber) + metamorph's. Metamorph's can be equipped with claw or whip and are much cheaper so that means more bodies and more cult ambush rolls. 2 hand flamers can also bring down heavy infantry lists and every '5' result on the cult ambush gives you free shooting.
Yeah I wouldn't roll Genestealers for Kill Team... Better off going Metamorph and Acoyltes, WIth hand flamers
Just because with the Cult ambush, you have a 1/6 chance of the genestealer actually doing anything the turn they arrive .. with the others you will be able to do something on pretty much all of the rolls
GodDamUser wrote: Yeah I wouldn't roll Genestealers for Kill Team... Better off going Metamorph and Acoyltes, WIth hand flamers
Just because with the Cult ambush, you have a 1/6 chance of the genestealer actually doing anything the turn they arrive .. with the others you will be able to do something on pretty much all of the rolls
Realise that acolytes and metamorph's only get infiltrate from the formations so no deployment cult ambush in a kill team game. I also think the goliath truck could be a good addition to a kill team.
Realise that acolytes and metamorph's only get infiltrate from the formations so no deployment cult ambush in a kill team game. I also think the goliath truck could be a good addition to a kill team.
Well yeah that is true, but it isn't hard to just 'Return to the Shadows' first turn
Realise that acolytes and metamorph's only get infiltrate from the formations so no deployment cult ambush in a kill team game. I also think the goliath truck could be a good addition to a kill team.
Well yeah that is true, but it isn't hard to just 'Return to the Shadows' first turn
No model in KT is ever allowed to return to ongoing reserves by any means. So the only models who get to cult ambush are genes and potentially a single specialist who you give the infiltrate trait. Given that, the stealer KT is perfectly solid imo - I have also had success with a pseudo-guard KT using a chim, 2 armoured sents (all with ML) and some neophytes. Other than that I think the best options are a gunline neophyte horde, or using transports to rush the enemy - 2 goliaths and 12 acolytes fits.
Realise that acolytes and metamorph's only get infiltrate from the formations so no deployment cult ambush in a kill team game. I also think the goliath truck could be a good addition to a kill team.
Well yeah that is true, but it isn't hard to just 'Return to the Shadows' first turn
No model in KT is ever allowed to return to ongoing reserves by any means. So the only models who get to cult ambush are genes and potentially a single specialist who you give the infiltrate trait. Given that, the stealer KT is perfectly solid imo - I have also had success with a pseudo-guard KT using a chim, 2 armoured sents (all with ML) and some neophytes. Other than that I think the best options are a gunline neophyte horde, or using transports to rush the enemy - 2 goliaths and 12 acolytes fits.
Ah, did not know that. If you cannot go into the shadows then I would not rely on cult ambush at all. With 14 genestealers only 9/10 would come close and if the didn't get first turn the enemy would just shoot down the two genestealers that roll a 6 result. After that the remaining genestealers can only move close and get shot in the face next turn, and everything falls apart.
Then I would go for this:
Neophytes (lasguns) + 2x grenade launcher + 2x heavy stubber
8 acolytes + 3 hand flamers.
goliath
Put 8 acolytes + 2 assault weapon neophytes in the goliath and move 6 inch forward and keep blasting away. This gunboat can always drop out 8 acolytes with rending if something get's to close.
Ah, did not know that. If you cannot go into the shadows then I would not rely on cult ambush at all. With 14 genestealers only 9/10 would come close and if the didn't get first turn the enemy would just shoot down the two genestealers that roll a 6 result. After that the remaining genestealers can only move close and get shot in the face next turn, and everything falls apart.
Then I would go for this:
Neophytes (lasguns) + 2x grenade launcher + 2x heavy stubber
8 acolytes + 3 hand flamers.
goliath
Put 8 acolytes + 2 assault weapon neophytes in the goliath and move 6 inch forward and keep blasting away. This gunboat can always drop out 8 acolytes with rending if something get's to close.
In the meta I play, you get to pick your leader trait, so maybe having 4+ seize at will makes 14 genes more viable.. And of course you are playing with luck a bit, but generally you can get 2/3 pf your outflankers close to the enemy at least, so a 2 isn't too awful, and if you drop genes in ruins they get a 3+ cover save, which is easily enough to let a good amount survive a few rounds of shooting. It is an extremely all or nothing KT, but one that can work quite well I think!
So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Twice I had the opponent castle up in a corner, and really could have used some serious ranged firepower or artillery to make them disperse. Has anyone had any luck with guard artillery?
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Twice I had the opponent castle up in a corner, and really could have used some serious ranged firepower or artillery to make them disperse. Has anyone had any luck with guard artillery?
Why not tuck in a Leman Russ or two, I tend to find that they can soak up a fair few shots themselves and gives you that pie plate that is always useful.
otherwise I do like having a squad or two of Acolytes with Democharges
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Twice I had the opponent castle up in a corner, and really could have used some serious ranged firepower or artillery to make them disperse. Has anyone had any luck with guard artillery?
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
You the GSC player that lost to my friend's White Scar gladius G1? I think Gladius is just a tough match up for that mission due to obsec.
If you want to bring some arty, check out the Renegades in Imperial Armor. A command squad with Ordinance tyrant, 5 earth shakers arty carriages and 2 Heavy mortars for 420pts
I think that was me. It wasn't so much obsec as my patriarch refused to help out. Without his fearless bubble my big squad got run down and that was a tough blow. GSC isn't too bad of a match up against gladius(assuming a normal number of flame throwers) because we have the raw killing power to really table a BC in a hurry if the battle company isn't careful. The reverse of that though is that they often have enough bolters to really put the pain on all my guys.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Twice I had the opponent castle up in a corner, and really could have used some serious ranged firepower or artillery to make them disperse. Has anyone had any luck with guard artillery?
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
You the GSC player that lost to my friend's White Scar gladius G1? I think Gladius is just a tough match up for that mission due to obsec.
If you want to bring some arty, check out the Renegades in Imperial Armor. A command squad with Ordinance tyrant, 5 earth shakers arty carriages and 2 Heavy mortars for 420pts
If you play 'come to the apocalypse" I would consider this option also. Best thing about this setup is the cheap high toughness artillery that you can place behind a defence line. If the artillery can hold their own then you got the option to first shoot with them for 3 turns and 'come out of the shadows' with the GSC to take down the leftovers.
@sonsofvulkan: don't you also need two 'normal' troop choice in this setup?
vercingatorix wrote: I think that was me. It wasn't so much obsec as my patriarch refused to help out. Without his fearless bubble my big squad got run down and that was a tough blow. GSC isn't too bad of a match up against gladius(assuming a normal number of flame throwers) because we have the raw killing power to really table a BC in a hurry if the battle company isn't careful. The reverse of that though is that they often have enough bolters to really put the pain on all my guys.
Did you make the top 16? My friend said the GSC player he beat still end up making the top 16 by blowing thru the rest of his opponents that day.
True still a tough match up because Gladius players would keep their dudes inside the vehicles, so you have to assault and destroy the rhino/rzb, endure a whole turn of shooting and then you will get the chance to assault the squad. The worse match up would be against a Lionsblade strike force, full BS overwatch is just too overwhelming.
gave them a go the other day, and wasn't overly impressed with them
I would say they are not very efficient considering Claw morphs can do everything they can for much less and if you need resilency I'd rather go with genestealers again for cheaper. They are not bad to summon if you don't have any useful other options modeled/painted but normally they stay in the box.
vercingatorix wrote: I think that was me. It wasn't so much obsec as my patriarch refused to help out. Without his fearless bubble my big squad got run down and that was a tough blow. GSC isn't too bad of a match up against gladius(assuming a normal number of flame throwers) because we have the raw killing power to really table a BC in a hurry if the battle company isn't careful. The reverse of that though is that they often have enough bolters to really put the pain on all my guys.
Did you make the top 16? My friend said the GSC player he beat still end up making the top 16 by blowing thru the rest of his opponents that day.
True still a tough match up because Gladius players would keep their dudes inside the vehicles, so you have to assault and destroy the rhino/rzb, endure a whole turn of shooting and then you will get the chance to assault the squad. The worse match up would be against a Lionsblade strike force, full BS overwatch is just too overwhelming.
I did and I actually beat a lions blade w/ wolves along the way. We ended on bottom of 2 with him technically winning but I had 10 killpoints from his battle company and all but 2 wolves were dead. We called it there.
I've found that the trick is playing with unit layering so that after the first guy dies then the rest are shooting through a gap in a unit so you get a 5+ and 6+ fnp. Because of coteaz and +4 to seize that game I could confidently set up in the middle of the board do tricks like that. I also didn't roll many 6's on turn 1 but a bunch of 5s. So half my army shot twice in turn 1. With all the lasguns plus 3 quad mortars there was a lot of dead wolves and he was locked in combat with 1 remaining guy.
When I play against lions blade with my regular ITC army I have a patriarch plus 5 magus I rely on shrieks and mass hypnosis. Overwatch is a lot less scary at B3 and you should wipe the squad before they swing. Shriek is just good at picking up models.
Also I have 60 neophytes in my army which usually pick up guys that step out of their trucks. It's a hard match up but its not awful if you bring enough wounds.
What's considered the best loadout for neophyte hybrids? Just got my first box besides Overkill and am hoping to get more of a gcult army in the future.
gave them a go the other day, and wasn't overly impressed with them
I've been running two squads in a Subterrain Uprising lately in low point games with good success. One squad is equipped with all power picks and serves as the bodyguard for a Primus (lots of AP3) while the other has all hammers and is used to support the Acolyte and Metamorph squads. As a stand-alone squad I think the Hammers are slightly more useful since they have S8 (or S9 with Furious Charge or Might from Beyond, S10 with both) and guaranteed AP2 with Concussive (took down a Wraithknight once by Concussing it with a Hammer and then rending it to death next round), but the Power Picks are still nice for disposing of Marine squads and monstrous creatures. Never mix weapons, as it splits their target priorities and reduces their efficiency.
Also in regards to the comparison to Claw-morphs, Aberrants are similar in that they are a high strength melee squad, but they offer guaranteed armor penetration and swing at higher strengths (S7 for picks and S8 for Hammers) at the cost of no shooting and fewer attacks overall (Picks have the same number of attacks as Metamorphs per model, but generally fewer bodies due to higher individual cost) . They also come with Stubborn built in, so they aren't as vulnerable to getting swept as Metamorphs are if combat doesn't go as well as expected.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Twice I had the opponent castle up in a corner, and really could have used some serious ranged firepower or artillery to make them disperse. Has anyone had any luck with guard artillery?
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
A lord comissar with vets and a unit of wyverns is super cheap actually.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Per chance, were you the fellow with the lovely yellow/grey suited hybrids? Was a bit disappointed to only see two Genestealer Cults while we were there and only saw one of them in person.
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
A Guard allied detatchment with a Commissar Lord, bare Veteran Squad, and 3 Wyverns comes to 320 points, so not too bad. Alternatively, one could consider the Living Artillery Node from the Tyranids. It is a bit more expensive at 390 points minimum, but the individual components are a bit tougher and can fight in melee in a pinch, plus the Exocrine offers some BS:4 plasma firepower without the drawback of Gets Hot.
Red Corsair wrote:A lord comissar with vets and a unit of wyverns is super cheap actually.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Isn't there an Imperial Guard formation with just artillery? It would help not to pay the tax for those other units, right?
I would rather pick the 'non vehicle' Renegade artillery units. If the GSC units don't get first turn then the should be able to stay in the backfield and go to the shadows and start playing the second turn.
The renegade artillery can be put behind a defence line or cover and with toughness 7 + coversave the can take a bit of shooting.
You could also deploy the GSC in their face, take first turn shooting, go into the shadows and replenish models and start shooting with the artillery.
A few wyverns got a 'big bulls eye' on their face and can be destroyed with a single (melta) shot.
It requires a CCS in a chimera, and manticore/deathstrike before you can unlock two units of wyverns/basilisks/hydras. It's not really less of a tax than the CAD or allied detachment if you mainly want the wyverns.
Renegades of vraks have better artillery options. A 390pts CAD with a command squad, and squads of zombies can get you four wyverns so is probably better than the IG allied detachment mentioned above. It does have the drawbacks of being desperate allies and FW though depending on tournament restrictions.
Oh well I was beaten to mentioning R+H by shogun haha Their other artillery options are great too of course!
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: So after Adepticon and 8 games played with GSC I was faced with a situation (FYI one was during the Warhammer TV stream, we were luckily enough to be broadcasted Saturday night!).
Per chance, were you the fellow with the lovely yellow/grey suited hybrids? Was a bit disappointed to only see two Genestealer Cults while we were there and only saw one of them in person.
I like the concept of the guard artillery formation or even an allied CAD, but I'm afraid with my GSC tactics of fading in and out, it will be left exposed. Also the points investment would probably need to be 500+ points.
If I break down my list to the core, the brood cycle is around 500 points and I take two sub-T's at around 275 points a piece. Throw in 2 characters and that puts my core in around 1250 give or take. I guess that might leave me enough room to put a semi-effective guard position down. Thoughts?
A Guard allied detatchment with a Commissar Lord, bare Veteran Squad, and 3 Wyverns comes to 320 points, so not too bad. Alternatively, one could consider the Living Artillery Node from the Tyranids. It is a bit more expensive at 390 points minimum, but the individual components are a bit tougher and can fight in melee in a pinch, plus the Exocrine offers some BS:4 plasma firepower without the drawback of Gets Hot.
I went with a beige armor and red flesh tones. Here is a picture of my champs list, and here is our team tournament list (I did the painting for all the non-guard stuff). I so need a break from painting cult even though I want to add more. They burned me out!
Seriously Awesome. It's tough getting together enough guys to a good quality. Especially because paint judging is never an average of your models. It's usually a measure of your worst and your best model. If you have an average army with no glaring weaknesses paint wise with two big awesome models, you'll often max paint score or at least beat someone with merely an above average army. That's what makes hordes so difficult IMO. There's no 1 big stand out model to make them not look to closely at everything.
thanks guys. Yeah it really burnt me out. Painted it all basically in a couple of months. The color pallet was way too large on this army, I chose poorly when I set my paint plan. I'm taking a break and painting some 30k marines to get a break from the complexity of the cult!
I really do want to revisit them though. They are such an exhausting army to play with all of the redeployment and cat & mouse tactics you need to employ. It's not a point and click army like some of the net lists these days.
Have people had any luck with the cult as a small allied force? I'm thinking of a full imperial guard artillery army, medusas, quad mortars, basilisk, blob squad and then adding in a sub uprising or something? I don't have the models but I think it would do well.
I'd been considering exactly that - I'd imagine a sub uprising or two could perform quite well outside the insurrection with min acolyte squads and some claw morphs. My main issue would be where to deploy them all as my deployment zone is usually 100% full of guardsmen...
Considering you don't need to worry too much about killing since you have a bunch of artillery for that maybe going with obsec over two rolls on the cult ambush table. Just use another 80 neophytes as obsec and quickly moving. Basically a cheap way of giving turn 2 infiltrate to guardsman. It would be an exhausting army to play but most armies don't have an effective way of getting rid of that many bodies.
Went to the Crucible GT this past weekend, thought I would share my results with the group. My list was a barebones Cult Insurrection with all 4 HQs, and a SubUp with 3 units of Claw Morphs. One was 10 man for the primus, and there were 10 Stealers for the patriarch in my Brood Cycle. Added on 3 flyrants to round it out.
Game 1 was against a WarCon with Cawl, sisters of silence and an Inquisitor with servo skulls. Went second, hid far away and went into reserves. Turn 2 I came in hard and destroyed both of his grav squads and his sicarans and infiltrators. By turn 3 his knight was dead to flyrants and his whole army was locked in combat. Called it there, full point win.
Game 2 was against WarCon with Cawl and sisters, no Inquisitor. Went 2nd again. Had some really poor cult ambush rolls turn 2 so he was able to keep a good amount of his army alive, he also shot down two flyrants with that skyfire grav unit. The game only went to 4, but he managed to tie one primary, while I won Maelstrom. A very comfortable win, 14-5. If it goes to 5 I probably get full points, as I needed one more kill point and was about to charge most of my army into some Grav Bots with Cawl.
Game 3 was against a Tau player with servo skulls (farsight decurion with Insertion force, Piranha wing and Triptide wing, and inquisitor). I went first, and he mistakenly deployed a servo skull within 6" of his Tau, so it was pulled for being within 6" of the enemy (as he's desperate allies). I had some horrendous dice rolls, and only managed to assault one unit since no less than 7 of my units managed to Cult ambush walk on my board, or outflanked on the far side out of range of anything. Still got a kill 3 Maelstrom successfully and killed his warlord. He matched my Kill 3 when his Riptide Wing (all VTs) managed to gun down two flyrants after some truly awful armor saves on my part. I believe I failed 6 consecutive 3+ saves! It was back and forth since the dual primaries were Table quarters and kill points, which we both easily won one of. The game swung in his favor when I went for hold 3, and he was able to contest it with a piranha Flat outing onto it. I forgot they could turbo 18"! Ended up in a loss, 16-7 in his favor as he narrowly held the maelstrom.
Game 4 I managed to play against Tau with servo skulls again! Your standard double-surge list with triptide wing, and an inquisitor. I went 2nd and he got a quick hold 3 in maelstrom as I was far away. Turn 2 my cult ambushes came in and I managed to lock up most of his MCs. His surges eventually stomped their way out and I never was able to kill them, but I did crush the riptides and all his crisis and markerlight support. Sadly he got a kill 3 and kill 2 Maelstrom to maintain a slight lead on it as my first turn I got 0. Won the primary (end of game) but lost maelstrom for a dead tie. He had warlord solo blood, I had Linebreaker and warlord. If the game goes onto turn 6 I almost certainly win as he was down to two units and I was only a point shy on maelstrom, while he was never going to get the Primary.
Game 5 was, yet again, Tau! Sadly I went second as he had no skulls. His list was a triptide wing, two yvahras and an R'Varna (loads of large blasts). I go second so I castle up to jump to the shadows turn 1. Cleverly, he jumps a Yvahra straight at me and actually solos a flyrant by charging it to do one wound. I only get half my army into the shadows because he's so close. Patriarch and stealers take the yvahra down to one wound, only for it to pass a Nova and go into reserves out of combat. I also summon some stealers into his backfield to contest an objective and roll a 6, so they charge the R'Varna and tear it to pieces. My turn 2 I manage to lock two tides in combat and then charge the summoned stealers that had gotten free into the third, tying them all up for the rest of the game. His two yvahras buzz around but Im able to shoot the one wound guy left down with my last flyrant, and poor guys into the riptide combats until they die. The game ends on 5 with him having two of his 6 tides left, both locked in combat. Solid win for me. We draw maelstrom but I solidly win primary for a 15-7 win for me.
Thoughts from the tournament: Tau with servo skulls are so, so bad for us! Really poor luck in my matchups and in that game I lost (my opponent ended up making it to top table before losing to the winning daemon player) but I had a great time overall. No games was I ever out of the picture to win, and the army is super fun to play. Three servo skull opponents and 3 Tau players really broke my heart though, as there were only 5 tau armies in a field of 52 players. I would've loved to see some Eldar instead... Ended up in 9th place and top Nid, which isnt too bad but I'll admit I was hoping for more.
Things I have noticed with the army is that if you go second and dont have summoning, the maelstrom can be tough as you have a solid deficit that you need to make up quickly. Going second against tau in games 4 and 5 I needed one more turn to catch up as they had strong early leads. Against non-Tau armies I havent had any trouble as I can usually cut off their points as they cant intercept me when I come to steal objectives that they had been trying to hold, but Tau can shoot off the few units I get close. Overall it was great time, I'd definitely recommend coming to florida for some of the GTs here, they're highly competitive!
Holy smokes that was poor match ups. Excellent job though I doubt I could have kept my cool lining august Tau and servo skulls all day.
How did the flyrants perform against Tau? The biggest reason I've been against mixing them is that I feel like riptides are ALSO good against them which is the one match up I'd be trying to fix if with allies.
Did you get the chance to take over the stormsurge?
How much bubble wrap did the tau players bring? Do you think they could have played it better against you? I know most people haven't played against GSC hardly at all. So far that's been my biggest advantage.
I also run 10 stealers with the Patriarch. It just feels like the right amount. Glad someone else thinks the same way.
My strategy against Tau has just been to rely on sheer number of wounds between summoning and bringing 60 neophytes anyway. How bad is the intercept? I'm surprised you managed to lock up as much as you did.
Do you think summoning stealers was the right call? Couldn't 20 neophytes have locked up the riptide just as effectively? I get that it could very well be a model limitation.
The Flyrants were very underwhelming in all three tau games, only thing they did was vs the surge list Land on turn 5 for Objectives. And no, I sadly failed to get mind control against the surges. I only have 5 rolls on broodmind since I don't take a CaD. :( and yeah the tau could've played better. My last opponent spread out too much so I was able to isolate and lock up his tides with minimal overwatch. But the game I lost was against my chief rival, who knows my army inside and out cause we've played quite a few times. He did all the right things other than the Skull snafu. And the reason I summoned the Stealers not Guard was because I wanted a legit Cc threat that I expected to take a lot of shooting. I was going to summon them into terrain where stealth and T4 and a 5++ would help CS weight of fire and smart missiles. But, when I rolled the 6, I felt good about the choice!
I look at it as a riptide locked in combat with 20 neophytes is guaranteed to be out of commission for a while, basically forever if a patriarch is nearby. While Genestealers could get killed in a few rounds of combat.
Also 20 neophytes is more resistant to shooting then 8 stealers or at least equal.
I have the models for both and I've been going back and forth on it so that's why I was curious about it.
And actually, doing the math. Assuming the neophytes lose 3 in overwatch and 8 stealers lose 2 and there are no bubbles. The neophytes actually do more wounds between pistols, mass swings, and the guy with an AP 2 power maul.
Neophytes do 2.2 wounds and Stealers do 1.8. It only gets worse if the Riptide is in cover and swings first.
Ignore above, apparently power mauls need to wound? lol. So the neophytes are worse then by a decent amount but still well within a standard deviation.
Lol power mails are ap 4 sadly. And this was an R'Varna, so it actually has no overwatch. Meant I got all 8 swinging and did a solid 4 wounds in CC with those 40 attacks.
Oh, is that the tank of a riptide that has extra wounds and toughness? That would make sense then, the poor little guys couldn't even hurt him. With that being said, I still don't mind neutralizing it by just locking him in combat forever.
How did you get 40? You only summon 8 at most? Or do you mean from your purestrains with the patriarch?
vercingatorix wrote: Have people had any luck with the cult as a small allied force? I'm thinking of a full imperial guard artillery army, medusas, quad mortars, basilisk, blob squad and then adding in a sub uprising or something? I don't have the models but I think it would do well.
First tournament I took them to I took nids, and just had a tiny GSCCAD containing a Patriarch, Magus, and a handful of acolytes and purestrains. The idea being to roll summoning and pour tons of extra purestrains onto the table.
It worked really well. In 2 of the 6 games i failed to roll summoning, but the cheap units being able to hop around the table grabbing objectives still made them fantastically useful.
Would definitely recommend fitting a small allied detachment in with your guard.
Buzzdady wrote: Hmmm I'm assuming the tau list with the Y'Vahra and R'Varna had a CAD? Otherwise I don't know how he could take them unless he went unbound.
Correct. It was a CAD with the three FW tides, some Tetras and some adding crisis suits plus a coldstar, then a Triptide wing.
jifel wrote: The Flyrants were very underwhelming in all three tau games, only thing they did was vs the surge list Land on turn 5 for Objectives. And no, I sadly failed to get mind control against the surges. I only have 5 rolls on broodmind since I don't take a CaD. :( and yeah the tau could've played better. My last opponent spread out too much so I was able to isolate and lock up his tides with minimal overwatch. But the game I lost was against my chief rival, who knows my army inside and out cause we've played quite a few times. He did all the right things other than the Skull snafu. And the reason I summoned the Stealers not Guard was because I wanted a legit Cc threat that I expected to take a lot of shooting. I was going to summon them into terrain where stealth and T4 and a 5++ would help CS weight of fire and smart missiles. But, when I rolled the 6, I felt good about the choice!
I feel like a flyrant + cult list would probably be best by being primarily a flyrant list, using cult to obj grab in place of the usual lictors or rippers. Fewer flyrants really impacts their redundancy. So 4-5 flyrants and some obj grabber squads (hell, maybe favoured disciplines for fearless).
Has anyone had a look at the cult list for shadow war? We look to be one of the most hordey factions and have a ton of options, some of which are unlikely to be modelled (pistols on regular guys). If anyone has played necromunda would be interested in hearing your thoughts on a start out list!
@Benlisted I keep the Flyrants in because they are absolute money against non tau. They allow me to dominate BattleCo and daemons where I feel I would otherwise struggle. R&H and Eldar also have no good answer to them. I've found that the Flyrants do more than my old 6-7 Flyrant lists because they are almost never being targeted anymore. GSC + Trirant has honestly been going very well for me so far in the 40+ games I've played. Tau is the only match that's really been troubling me.
Has anyone had a look at the cult list for shadow war? We look to be one of the most hordey factions and have a ton of options, some of which are unlikely to be modelled (pistols on regular guys). If anyone has played necromunda would be interested in hearing your thoughts on a start out list!
If you have played necromunda
You are basically aiming for a Delauqe list, but it is better to not have your leader CC orientated I know for my first coupe of campaigns I'm just gonna use my Delauqe models, but I use them in my GSC army anyway
So about 4/5 Autoguns (maybe a shot gun or two)
3 with auto pistols (1 or two chainswords)
1 flamer and 1 Heavy Stubber
I like the flamer myself because it makes people a tad worried about mass charging me, but Heavy Stubber is the most efficient heavy weapon in the game
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wish the Seismic Cannon was cheaper in Shadow War..
looks like it would be fun, but at more than double the cost of a Heavy Stubber, its just not worth it
Has anyone had a look at the cult list for shadow war? We look to be one of the most hordey factions and have a ton of options, some of which are unlikely to be modelled (pistols on regular guys). If anyone has played necromunda would be interested in hearing your thoughts on a start out list!
If you have played necromunda
You are basically aiming for a Delauqe list, but it is better to not have your leader CC orientated
I know for my first coupe of campaigns I'm just gonna use my Delauqe models, but I use them in my GSC army anyway
So about 4/5 Autoguns (maybe a shot gun or two)
3 with auto pistols (1 or two chainswords)
1 flamer and 1 Heavy Stubber
I like the flamer myself because it makes people a tad worried about mass charging me, but Heavy Stubber is the most efficient heavy weapon in the game
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wish the Seismic Cannon was cheaper in Shadow War..
looks like it would be fun, but at more than double the cost of a Heavy Stubber, its just not worth it
Thanks for the input! Hording out seems like a good plan to me, probably cult's biggest benefit. Are laspistols any better than autopistols? Cos in our list they're exactly the same points, which feels like an oversight if they just have a better ammo roll...
Thanks for the input! Hording out seems like a good plan to me, probably cult's biggest benefit. Are laspistols any better than autopistols? Cos in our list they're exactly the same points, which feels like an oversight if they just have a better ammo roll...
Na that should be right.. haven't had too close of a look, but traditionally. Las have better Ammo but Autos are more likely to hit
jifel wrote: @Benlisted I keep the Flyrants in because they are absolute money against non tau. They allow me to dominate BattleCo and daemons where I feel I would otherwise struggle. R&H and Eldar also have no good answer to them. I've found that the Flyrants do more than my old 6-7 Flyrant lists because they are almost never being targeted anymore. GSC + Trirant has honestly been going very well for me so far in the 40+ games I've played. Tau is the only match that's really been troubling me.
I've found that vs battle company the amount of bodies plus summoning (I take 6 lvl 2 psykers) makes it a fair match up in that neither of us has an advantage. I figure I just have to outplay my opponent which is all I can really ask for in an army list.
As for daemons, while flyrants are good at getting rid of fateweaver I feel like they really struggle vs flying lord of change or magnus.
So far I've found that I do pretty well in those match ups because I can usually string together combats enough to cause instability checks and get rid of Magnus's ground support. As for Fateweaver, having 6 psykers plus adwill everywhere means I can block the novas from him (And eldar!) pretty reliably. I've played against magnus 3 times and won all 3 and oracle plus screamerstar once and won it. So not a huge pile of a data but enough for me to feel reasonably confident. It's also pretty funny having magnus flying around going "uhhh, now what?" as your hordes of guys run around the board avoiding him and his stupid chariots.
The only issue is summoned flamers and chariots but thankfully there aren't that many players that own enough of the models to really cause problems. 3 flamers and two chariots isn't overwhelming but one player in our area has 9 flamers and 2 chariots, that's a problem.
However, if you don't have the models to run a full summoning GSC list then I think flyrants is a much easier and cheaper army to run.
I've honestly been extremely lucky that I've only played against one tau player but I think the beta strike summoning is the way to go against them if you're staying ITC. We have a lot of daemons and eldar in our meta so Tau never do well, you basically just have to hope you don't play them first round, make sure you win your round, and you're probably good to go.
I assume that a "summoning " list is an incursion and two CADs for six psykers total. Not a bad idea at all, I just find it takes too long in competitive play. And I suppose that the Flyrants vs Summoning is a matter of choice, as it's hard to fit in both. I've also noticed that summoning is super huge vs Tau though, I might cut down to two Flyrants and a CAD for extra Magii. A little ObSec wouldn't hurt either. But the shadows in the warp is actually massive against Daemons. Let's me reliably cut down their psykers with instability and makes a Lord of Change with impossible robe MUCH more likely to be killed.
jifel wrote: I assume that a "summoning " list is an incursion and two CADs for six psykers total. Not a bad idea at all, I just find it takes too long in competitive play. And I suppose that the Flyrants vs Summoning is a matter of choice, as it's hard to fit in both. I've also noticed that summoning is super huge vs Tau though, I might cut down to two Flyrants and a CAD for extra Magii. A little ObSec wouldn't hurt either. But the shadows in the warp is actually massive against Daemons. Let's me reliably cut down their psykers with instability and makes a Lord of Change with impossible robe MUCH more likely to be killed.
Good point on the shadows. I only played with flyrants a few times but I don't think I ever played them against daemons. However when I played daemons I always felt reasonably confident vs flyrants. So that's kind of what I was judging my opinion on. However I played daemons before GSC came out so maybe that combination is a different animal.
You're also pretty spot on with my list.
Brood cycle with 3 mining lasers and 10 Genestealers
Sub up with 20 man squad with banner
10 man acolyte squad
5 man metamorph
5 man metamorph
doting throng
3x 10 man acolytes
magus w/ crouchling
patriarch
CAD 1
magus
magus
2x10 neophytes
CAD 1
magus
magus
2x10 neophytes
93% chance of getting 1 summoning and usually get 2-3.
Not to mention it's pretty formidable to a lot of armies even without the summoning. 60 neophytes actually has a decent amount of firepower when they all show up at once within rapid fire range on an enemy flank.
With this army I almost always choose second. I'll deploy the sub ups because I have too. Then I'll put whatever unit rolled a summons in with the brood cycle neophytes and probably my patriarch with stealers on the board or put the summoning magus with one of the zealot units.
I try to husband my obsec neophytes till end game while flooding the board with summoned and starting units. Generally people don't want to give you first turn because everyone is scared of the alpha strike that genestealer cult is kind of known for.
The one army this doesn't work as well against is daemons. They're simply going to outsummon you. So I try to put pressure on them and disallow them from flying fatey or escaping with thieir screamer star. With 12 dice and adwill bubbles everywhere and shrouding and ld 10 in half my squads and ld 9 in the brood cycle I'm pretty resistant to flickering fire, save all my dice to block novas, and shrieks can hurt but also do nothing.
If they're screamerstar can't get away even with a 2+ they get tied up in a combat with a bunch of brimstones and that's not something they like.
Murderhorde is brutal as well. If you can't get rid of their hatred bubble quickly our armies simply erase each other. MSU stuff is becoming less popular because of Aeldari so I think GSC is in a really good place meta wise.
So I took a GSC cult list to the 800pt WHW doubles event last weekend (they announced 8th live during the event, pretty cool). It was:
CAD of Patriarch, 10 and 15 neophytes w/autoguns, aegis
2 Sub uprisings of 3x5 acolytes and 3x 5 metas (1 whip, 4 claws)
one squad of acolytes was upped to 10 to fit the Patriarch in.
My friend took a Psykana with guard vets (3 autocannons) and 9 rapier las batteries, summoning daemons (so somewhat relevant to the earlier discussion).
We ended up winning all 5 games - it is random pairings so that doesn't necessarily mean that much, but still not a bad showing. The Psykana did seem to work quite well with cult - we bubblewrapped initially, then took the enemy's lines whilst the daemons occupied midfield and Guard castled up. We didn't get past turn 3 except in the game we tabled our opponents though, slow as hell to play...
Anyway, here's hoping cults retain their awesome and unique playstyle in 8th!
So there was a lot of talk earlier in the thread about movement blocking fliers. I can say with confidence that it can work!
Here's a quick battle report from my last 7th edition tournament.
I have a pure Cult army with a brood cycle, sub uprising, and double cads.
My opponent had magnus, fateweaver, screamerstar, and cultist and brims to fill out the list.
The deployment is hammer and anvil and scouring.
Deployment
He deployed first in a corner with fatey and magnus and brims and culstist as a bubble wrap. I rolled the good warlord trait for my Patriarch with 10 genestealers. I also rolled a 6 for my 7 metamorph unit and a 5 man unit of acolytes from the brood cycle.
Daemon Turn 1 Maelstorm - 0
I completely movement blocked fateweaver but magnus could still fly because he could move his brims out of the way. So fatey flew off the board and left magnus flying. Magnus did some damage but with only having 7 base dice compared to my 12 he only managed to get a beam and a small blast off. He didn't finish off any units.
Cult Turn 1 Maelstrom - 3
I wiped out all his chaffe units that weren't flying. My favorite being the unit of 5 acolytes charging in with furious charge and hatred vs cultist and a champion. Completely wiped the squad before they swung and then the sorcerer got run down. I used the rest of my army to block magnus from flying. Since all he had one turn 1 was fly from one side of his corner to the other, it required very little movement.
Daemon Turn 2 Maelstrom - 0
His turn 2, the screamers fail their reserves, fatey flies on in the middle of my big blob of guys blocking Magnus movement. Magnus can't fly continue flying so he leaves the board. His low psychic dice count and me having adwill and psykers everywhere mean I block all of fatey's powers.
Cult Turn 2 Maelstrom - 6
I leave most of my stuff where it is because my units are in long lines and fatey is preventing a lot of them from leaving the board. The two units that leave are the Patriarch and genestealers who pick their result and metamorphs. I hold all the objectives and score 3 maelstrom.
Daemon Turn 2 Maelstrom - 1
His screamers come in, fatey flies in the middle of a bunch of stuff, magnus flies in the middle of a bunch of stuff. His screamerstar failed grimoire even with fatey's reroll. He casts cursed earth and rolls a natural 10 on the warp storm table so they're still at a 4+. His psychic phase is pretty brutal in that he kills a whole lot of guys but only fully kills off a single magus, 2 neophyte squads, and a 5 man acolyte squad.
Cult Turn 3 Maelstrom - 8
My warlord and 10 patriarchs choose to assault from reserves and show up 3 inches away from the screamers. The metamorphs that went into reserves also charge. The rest of my army goes into reserves and regenerates quite a few guys. He throws all his dice at stopping one of my summonings, which he did. But then my last 3-4 dice allowed me to do +1 strength and rage on my genestealer unit AND cast mass hypnosis on the screamers. Since I was charging through cover I didn't want my stealers to get hit too hard. Now the screamers had 1 less attack and were hitting on 5s so they did a single wound to the patriarch before getting utterly annihilated from the 50 strength 6 attacks from the stealers.
The rest of the game was me avoiding his fliers and regenerating as many wounded squads as possible. I had bottom of the turn so I just hung around until turn 5/6 and jumped on the objectives.
Now, obviously it really helped that my opponent failed grimoire. With that being said. I still did 50ish wounds to the squad between the metamorph unit and the stealer squad that assaulted it. And the turn after that would have seen(I rolled a 6 with them but there were no ground targets alive) a 20 man acolyte squad with hatred and furious charge and likely the +1 strength and rage power hitting it. So I don't think it changed the overall game result but it did hurry it up quite a bit. The end result being, even with a psychic powerhouse army like that, 12 dice with adwill and psykers is enough to block novas and the worst beams. That means that they probably will not have the firepower to deal with the rest of the army. I think my opponent relied too much on novas and not enough on flickering fire as well. He finally did realize it and one lvl 3 flickering fire picked up my entire large squad. the flickering fire killed a bunch and then the soulblase and warpflame killed another 5. It was brutal and left me with only 2 models left and one of the ICs dead.
Hopefully in 8th the general mechanics of cult ambush will still work so games like this will likely be possible. I doubt they'll change the rule of enemy models being able to exist with an inch of another.
So with the currently revealed new rules so far for 8th we have some unexpected bonuses for GSC
Bonus sentenels improved...
Bonus Pistols able to be fired in CC Bonus Russes more durable
Bouns S3 weapons able to damage everything on a 6
Bonus Psychics getting better
Bonus Characters not joining units but able to pile into nearby combats
Bonus Flamers are auto hits (and since most of ours are pistols even better)
Bonus Genestealer and a few of our other units movement likely to be higher.
Bonus AM getting some love which will effect some of our units as well.
If we keep our return to and out of shadows which I expect we will as it is our defining characteristic I think things will be very interesting for us.
Timeshadow wrote: So with the currently revealed new rules so far for 8th we have some unexpected bonuses for GSC
Bonus sentenels improved...
Bonus Pistols able to be fired in CC Bonus Russes more durable
Bouns S3 weapons able to damage everything on a 6
Bonus Psychics getting better
Bonus Characters not joining units but able to pile into nearby combats
Bonus Flamers are auto hits (and since most of ours are pistols even better)
Bonus Genestealer and a few of our other units movement likely to be higher.
Bonus AM getting some love which will effect some of our units as well.
If we keep our return to and out of shadows which I expect we will as it is our defining characteristic I think things will be very interesting for us.
The biggest item of interest for me is the pistols in combat personally. I'm guessing pistols are going to loose the attack bonus with the aforementioned change, but our main close combat units still have two melee weapons anyway so we should retain our +1 attack. Also I'm not sure if the Russ is more durable. In the current edition it is a bit better, but from what I have seen a lot of the weapons are going to be getting far nastier against single large models compared to infantry, so I'm suspecting it might end up overall more fragile in comparison. Might not be as easy to 1-shot as certain anti-tank weapons can do now, but there are a lot more things that can hurt it whereas currently it is flat out immune to anything weaker than S8 on the front.
I assume our characters will more or less remain as they are, since their main buffs are already in an area of effect.
Timeshadow wrote: So if everyone can now assault after deapstrike/reserve what will cult ambush do?
That is not a confirmed thing. There are no more universal deepstrike rules any more.
What was confirmed is that the particular rules for what restrictions each unit has will listed be on its dataslate. It's also been mentioned that cult ambush is still a thing, but no hint on how it will actually work.
Deploy 9inches away seems like a reasonable/safe bet, but that's pure speculation.
What was confirmed was that half your units need to deployed at startup.
Timeshadow wrote: So if everyone can now assault after deapstrike/reserve what will cult ambush do?
That is not a confirmed thing. There are no more universal deepstrike rules any more.
What was confirmed is that the particular rules for what restrictions each unit has will listed be on its dataslate. It's also been mentioned that cult ambush is still a thing, but no hint on how it will actually work.
Deploy 9inches away seems like a reasonable/safe bet, but that's pure speculation.
What was confirmed was that half your units need to deployed at startup.
I suspect that GSC can still go back in the shadows and then deploy 9 inch away (with assault option). Maybe deploy the whole army 9 inch instead of half at startup. Still speculation..
Alright, so this is completely a RUMOR but someone on FB has been posting what he claims is the new Cult Ambush table for us.
During deployment, you can set this unit in ambush instead of on the battlefield. At the end of your Movement phase it can launch an ambush - when it does so, roll a dice and consult the table below.
If you wish, before rolling on the Cult Ambush table for a Genestealer Cults Character you may pick one friendly Genestealer Cults Infantry unit that was also set up in Ambush to arrive with them, make one roll on the Cult Ambush table and apply the same result to both units. However, each of these units must be set up within 6" of each other.
If your army is Battle Forged, a unit can make use of this ability if every unit in its detachment had the Genestealer Cults keyword.
Cult Ambush
1 - Cult Reinforcements
Your opponent nominates 2 battlefield edges one after another then you roll a dice. On a 1-3, set the unit up wholly within 6" of the first edge. On a 4-6 set it up the whole within 6" of the other edge. The unit must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models.
2 - Encircling the Foe
You nominate 2 battlefield edges one after another then you roll a dice. On a 1-3, set the unit up wholly within 6" of the first edge. On a 4-6 set it up the whole within 6" of the other edge. The unit must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models.
3 - Lying in Wait
Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 12" away from any enemy models. Alternatively, set it up anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models and not visible to any enemy models.
4 - A Perfect Ambush
Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models.
5 - A Deadly Trap
Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. It can either move D6" or shoot with all its ranged weapons as if it were the shooting phase (doing so does not prevent it shooting in the Shooting phase or charging in the Charge phase of that turn)
6 - It Came From Below
Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. The unit can move normally, even though it had just arrived as reinforcements.
Again, this is purely unconfirmed but it does sound pretty nice if its true.
jifel wrote: Alright, so this is completely a RUMOR but someone on FB has been posting what he claims is the new Cult Ambush table for us.
During deployment, you can set this unit in ambush instead of on the battlefield. At the end of your Movement phase it can launch an ambush - when it does so, roll a dice and consult the table below. If you wish, before rolling on the Cult Ambush table for a Genestealer Cults Character you may pick one friendly Genestealer Cults Infantry unit that was also set up in Ambush to arrive with them, make one roll on the Cult Ambush table and apply the same result to both units. However, each of these units must be set up within 6" of each other. If your army is Battle Forged, a unit can make use of this ability if every unit in its detachment had the Genestealer Cults keyword. Cult Ambush 1 - Cult Reinforcements Your opponent nominates 2 battlefield edges one after another then you roll a dice. On a 1-3, set the unit up wholly within 6" of the first edge. On a 4-6 set it up the whole within 6" of the other edge. The unit must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. 2 - Encircling the Foe You nominate 2 battlefield edges one after another then you roll a dice. On a 1-3, set the unit up wholly within 6" of the first edge. On a 4-6 set it up the whole within 6" of the other edge. The unit must be set up more than 9" away from any enemy models. 3 - Lying in Wait Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 12" away from any enemy models. Alternatively, set it up anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models and not visible to any enemy models. 4 - A Perfect Ambush Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. 5 - A Deadly Trap Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. It can either move D6" or shoot with all its ranged weapons as if it were the shooting phase (doing so does not prevent it shooting in the Shooting phase or charging in the Charge phase of that turn) 6 - It Came From Below Set up the unit anywhere that is more than 9" from any enemy models. The unit can move normally, even though it had just arrived as reinforcements.
Again, this is purely unconfirmed but it does sound pretty nice if its true.
Actually it sounds pretty bad if it is true..
1-2 are pretty much the same thing (1 being the worse of the two) 3 is terribad 4 is normal DS 5 is great 6 is the same as 4
It is already established that arriving from reinforcements do not stop you from shooting or charging... So who ever posted that on FB is talking out of their arse
Yeah the 6 result is actually pretty good since it allows a move after. Since Nid Genestealers are confirmed to move 8" its reasonable to assume our Purestrains will as well, and a hybrid to move at least 6 as a guess. The big thing is that 4/5/6 all include reasonably makeable charges, meaning we'll get more units into assault off of Cult Ambush than before.
The faction focus is out and wow I can't wait to assault with my rockgrinders. Another question ... can our vehicles cult ambush now? It's cool we can take a nidz or guard unit for each cult unit we have...sweet.
From the shadows, the Genestealer Cults come to sow dissent and distrust. They undermine the foundations of the Imperium from within to prepare the way for the Great Devourer.
Genestealer Cults are both a new and old faction. They’ve got their roots way back in the mists of Warhammer 40,000 history but have recently made their triumphant return to the game. Genestealer Cults were largely defined in their play style through their very cool and characterful Cult Ambush special rule. That is still true in the new Warhammer 40,000 as well. Cult Ambush allows you to place Genestealer Cults units into reserves and then enter the game through a variety of means determined by a D6 chart. These range in effect from coming on to a table edge to being able to appear anywhere on the table more than 9” away from any enemy units but being able to move as well, allowing you to get extremely close to enemy units to shoot and then charge them as well. For units like Genestealers or Aberrants armed with power picks and rending claws, this can be punishing!
Speaking of Genestealers, if you thought they were deadly in the Tyranid army, they are even more flexible with Genestealer Cults due to the Cult Ambush rule as stated above. Combined with the Patriarch, they hit just as hard as the Broodlord and Genestealers do with Tyranids, but with Genestealer Cults, the Patriarch also allows nearby units to ignore morale, and he benefits from the Unquestioning Loyalty special rule which all Genestealer Cults Characters posses. This allows them to avoid taking a wound on a 4+ as a minion sacrifices its life and jumps in front of the attack. This makes these Characters extremely durable and even helps them survive things like Sniper fire.
Another nasty trick the Genestealer Cults have is their Mass Hypnosis psychic power, which prevents an enemy unit from firing Overwatch, makes them strike last in combat (even if they charged) AND gives them -1 to hit. Ouch! That leaves an enemy unit in a very compromised position as the minions of the Four-armed Emperor emerge from ambush and then run them through in melee.
One of my favourite aspects of the Genestealer Cults, though, is their ability to form their army using both their own faction, Tyranids and Astra Militarum, too. Huzzah! Due to the way that allies worked in the previous edition, making an army that mixed Genestealer Cult units and Astra Militarum wasn’t always straightforward. These are, of course, not “real” Astra Militarum, but devoted followers of the Cult who have turned from the Emperor’s light and betrayed their fellow man. The way it works in the new Warhammer 40,000 is really fun. You can take one Astra Militarum Detachment for each Genestealer Cults Detachment in your Battle-forged army. They each need to be entirely comprised of units with their respective keyword, but this allows incredible amounts of diversity in your army that is also quite characterful.
But you won’t always need to sneak into the Imperial motor pool to hijack their vehicles; the Genestealer Cults have access to some fantastic mechanised war machines of their own. The Goliath Rockgrinder is one of my favourites.
For armament, I prefer the Clearance Incinerator, as it automatically hits its target D6 times up to 12” out and, of course, you have to take the Cache of Demolition Charges! While you can only fire this weapon if a unit is embarked upon it (as they need to chuck them out!) and it is short ranged at 6”, boy does it pack a punch! D6 shots, Strength 8, AP -3 and D3 damage per hit. That’s no joke. If anything survives that, you can ram them with the Drilldozer in melee for a possible 6+D3 Strength 8 attacks with an AP of -2 and D3 damage per hit.
I'm pretty disappointed in losing return to shadows. We're a better alpha strike army than ever before but that's all we can do. Kind of frustrating that we're shoehorned so hard into one strategy.
power hammer are vey good, but aberrants with it are very very expensive..
Metamorphs ( 18 points with the mandatory talon ), gobye claws (6 points wihout rend..), hello whip, you die and you still atacking, and you dont need to atack with the whip..
Also.. genestealers.. are very good, 18 points each...but, i see tyanids and they cost 12.. 6 points for the ambush? its a joke?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any idea how to play them?
I dont know if use a lot of small units with heavy close combat weapons in chimeras..
or
abuse of msu cult ambush without equipment
or
make "big" units of genestealers and aberrants with some iconwards (i thinks that you can accumulate some rolls)
I think that it's going to be really important to pop transports. Now that everyone can just hop out and counter assault you. So I'm mixing in a bunch of guard squads with lascannons and sniper rifles to do the long range damage.
However Cult ambush just says Any movement phase so I wonder if this means you can spend a couple turns blazing away with all your guns, pop all the transports then drop in. That could give us a little bit of the tactical flexibility we're now severely lacking.
Yes, i think that you can go to the board on the turn that you want with the cult ambush.
But now all armies have perfect deep strike or similar, so if you only have some shoot units the enemy will kill them easy.
So to begin, i dont know if its better to abuse of cult ambush (now if you have a bad roll, its a really big problem) or its better use our vehicles to assault..
5 hybrids with rock cutter and whip for the boss are 104 points.. and now that each hybrid only has 2 "rend" atacks, i think that is required some heavy close combat weapon in each unit.
Now our salvation is worst, so we need vehicles to assault.
the best vehicle for the price and damage i think that its rockgrinder, with flamer and demolitions cost 136 (but only can transport 6 miniatures)
Nude chimera is 93 and nude goliath 107 but goliath with T6 its very weak :( So for transport more than 6 miniatures id prefer chimera.
So 5 vehicles and 5 units and you have more than 1000 points. Very very expensive : /
And my biggest dilemma... big unit of genestealer or not? XD
I love them, but it really hurts me to pay 6 points more than tyranids players for each genestealer..
So got 2 test games in today using GSC at 1000pts vs crimson fists, first some general observations then I will go specific.
Game time was quick, everything dies quickly.
Our army depends on the ambush table and thus the half the army at the start really hurts as its either you spilled up thus character buffs aren't stacking. Morale is crippling to some units so I think Patriarch are going to be key:
A note that I can see is there is not a reason we cannot take a multiple of any HQ choices so if points allow maybe 2 Primus and 2 Patriarch are the way to go.
Ambush can hurt your army as I rolled a one (forgot I could command point reroll) in the first game with patriarch and 10 stealers, my opponent had spread out and given me a tiny corner where on 7 stealers and patriarch could deploy.
Psychic powers are also great: real star is mass Hyp but I got very good use out of smite and mind control.
Unquestioning loyalty is super useful and a butt saver for Primus as 5+ don't last long.
Command points are great to take as many as possible both I and my opponent took battalion for 6 in total and I used all each game.
the new set up of alternative user deployment is cool and a sort of mind game: we play it a character and unit in ambush was 1 deployment but we are certain on that.
More boy than toys seems like the way to go this edition.
new charges help a lot, charging into a unit then wrapping around into others seems to be key: the second match we played it was corner deployment, so my opponent castles up using character buffs to full effect this lead to me engaging 8 out of ten units in first turn
ok on to more specific stuff:
Patriarch kicks ass, he always made his points back but really came into his own when he murdered Kanto 3 prime marines and 2 Centurions 3 rounds of combat. I expect he will draw lots of fire.
Primus: worth it on the reroll on ambush I might be tempted to put him in with Purestrains rather that Patriarch as the rerolls are great.
Magus: only used him in one game: not being able to double up on powers hurt, but I could see a list taking two as smite is really good.
Iconwards Not sure are worth it as they feel very hit or miss in both games. not sure if I would take another look but that's 4 acolytes.
Pure strains yep these are Genestaelers, that hurt a lot, they are super quick going 8+d6 so if they weren't such fire magnets foot slogging could be viable.
Acoyltes: these guys did work when they got to the opponents army killing plenty but having only 1 in reserve and 1 foot slogging I can tell you paper has more chance against a marine player. also despite no plenty to hit rocksaws aren't worth it for 24 pts not high enough attacks
Neophytes: these guys work rather well, I think depending on points it might be better going Guard but I'm not positive: I have a feeling transport could of help me a lot but forgot to pack them.
some notes on Marines: target the Characters, whereas we get pluses to rolls the rerolls they give out is brutal, new marine guys feel a bit bear right now without any options.
so that's all I play with I will possibly having some more games at the weekend.
onwards towards ascension lads
Having messed around with the rules. I'd say your thoughts on the iconward. He's one of the most important models if your gonna go a low vehicle build as he provides a 6+ save to all units in his range. Effectively the inward is our replacement for return to the shadows as he does the most to keep our brood on the table. Note you only need to roll 3-5 6s and He's paid for himself in full. I think we'll see 2 or 3 of these per army if you want to go big on cult ambush.
Guns as they were before are the strongest with cult ambush, but it's way stronger now than it was before. You cant return from the shadows meaning your kinda screwed on fishing for good rolls.
However, you can attempt a charge after all rolls. Basivly melee and flamers want a 5+ to beable to easily get shots off.
While mid range weapons like seismic cannons and shot guns only need a 4+ to make target range.
As mentioned the prius and his unit can reroll. I ran a big 20man acolyte unit with heavy weapons, and in the two games it was debating how they did. Even more so as he gives a to hit bonus in combat.
First curse basicly still exist but you o my get one roll if you want to come on from abmush, or you need to run up the table and survive shooting. I think cult ambushing and using your command reroll is the way to go. Even more so as our army really easily can get command points in list building.
Neophytes will be bread and butter. They can shoot the heavy weapons after ambush at only a -1 to hit. The mining laser and seismic cannon are great. Seismic cannon does ALOT of work for its points the are is only 7 (? If i remember right), but the difference in the higher strength numbers doesnt mean a whole lot like it did last edition. The mining laser works well as your ling range option, and grenade launchers can go with anyone. Shotguns and flamers also do well, but rely on 5+ rolls for ambush.
Once you land on the table you can end up kind of stuck where you are. This is fine for many units as your assault neophytes can advance and shoot at -1 penalty for the most part. Which is why shotguns and flamers and grenade launchers will be staples.
The vehicles are great too, but they will be a very different army. . As all the vehicles go boom you will want to keep space between your units and the rest of your army, but can send them on suicide runs. Trucks are great for neophytes as they can all shoot from them.
Our spells are great but ive gone on too long, but you'll want to have 3 psykers to use each one.
Overall I we won't be playing wackamole, we'll either pop up everywhere and own the map with heavy numbers advantage. Or tool around in a mad max truck army. Both seem equally good to me.
So, do Metamorphs still have a niche? Without their weapons acting as a modifier for rending claws they're basically just acolytes with an extra attack, and Purestrains do that better.
changemod wrote: So, do Metamorphs still have a niche? Without their weapons acting as a modifier for rending claws they're basically just acolytes with an extra attack, and Purestrains do that better.
I hate to be negative but i truly believe Metamorphs have no place in our army at all. Theyre just so darned expensive! A claw-morph went from 11 to 19 points and lost Rending. That, to me, cant be forgiven. Hybrids just pack more of a punch and are cheaper enough to fit in a drill/saw/cutter.
They die in close combat and still fighting with the rending claws. So, you can activate them the last.
And in general for all units, what do you think? it's better big units or a lot of small units?
seee i thought whips would be worth it to, but when playing with a few units they totally arent. The reason is..... when do you think your gonna use your whips???? your genestealer cult you should be the one charging them and fighting on your terms. Also while melee is better in 40k, know that shooting will still be everywhere. So they get shot, or they fight first and then start dying after they fight first, and then the whips only matter in later turns of an ongoing combat.
As for unit size most stuff you want small units except in two cases.
As i said before first curse still exist sorta. The patriarch will want to roll with 20 genestealers. This is because
1. he can only brings on unit with him when he ambushes,
2. because genestealers get a massive damage boost when they are in numbers larger than 10,
3. so you can cast strong buff on that unit
4. it's easier to keep them in range of the patriartch or a few models in ranged for the iconward invuln.
5. remember you can reroll this ambush with your command points, and with all the troops we can take it's easy to load up on command points
Then we have the primus, he is basicly another patriarch who can go with more genestealers or acolytes. I found that i had success with the untis of 10 and 20 acolytes i played with. All three of the times i played they had 4 heavy weapons that did work on big stuff, and all the other guys could bury the enemy in attacks, 2+ rerolling to hit is nasty stuff. These are the real unit you want to buff with our spell. They become really bonkers when they get that extra strength and attack. a 20 man unit can take a night out in a single turn easily when buffed.
Everything else i think should be min squads so you can get more rolls on ambush, and control the table better. This also protects you from morale. The one hang up on small units is that you gotta throw down more units and this effects who goes first.
I love genestealers, but really the cult ambush rule cost 6 points? because tyranids genestealers cost 12.. :(
Also do you use any vehicle?
And whats about aberrants?
thanks in advance
Yeah i was super butt hurt they cost more. The follow is all me rationalizing on how i played and what i like about the genestealers specific to the cult. One thing i liked is that i don't need the patriarch to chill with my genestealers baby sitting as the primus can buff them all the same. The 6+ save from the banner is easy to use it's not a power so i don't have to get it off, and be bummed when it fails at the worst time, and the banner is super cheap and can support multiple units at a time. If you look at drop pods and other similar transports cult ambush is basically a drop pods for genestealers, but some times it's waaay better (game winningly so), and seldomly it can get you in the butt. (the worst is when you roll a 1, and end up walking on from your table.). Even neophytes pay a cult ambush tax if you compare them to standard guard.
vehicles. Truck is nice, open top lets you put neophtyes in there so you can shoot. I played against a lemon russ and they were annoying, but it had multi damage weapons so was in effective against my more swarmy genestealer army. The rock grind s kinda meh in combat surprisingly as it doesn't hit so well. They don't work well with our characters??? As the way we read the rules they don't extend from units in the vehicles and then you lose unquestioned loyalty so snipers can dust your squish heros. THe nice thing about them though is you can charge me into combat to stop opponents from shooting the next turn, or park them behind enemy unit's that want to retreat so they can't get away. Other than that, i don't know i have to play with them more than i did.
Aberrants super specific. Their damage reduction matters against a few weapons like D3 weapons it can take the edge off. They hammer dudes messed up a land raider something good on the first turn of three games i did. After they did that though they felt like they were sorta done??? They didn't have anything else to kill and spent the game holding an objective or assisting by killing a few more model in another combat with acolytes. I guess i would ahve felt the same with my gernestealers against all knights or something.
In spain people is saying that the meta will be horde/rubbish miniatures with some big toys, at least for the moment. For example chaos: spam of brimstone horrores + magnus+1/2 renegade knights
So im thinking in made an imperial guard brigade or battalion detachament with all infantery with plasmas (to have units to deploy on table), and 2 genestealers cult batallion deteachement with 3 big units, maybe 1 aberrants + primus, 1 genestealers + patriarch and 1 acolytes full heavy weapons + primus, and the rest of the army a lot of small units of acollytes with ambush.
Well so, important to note. I think alot of folks are finding hordes good because weapons that do multiple damage suck against them, but the inverse is true, if you math out what genestealkers do to a knight vs same number of points of acolytes with just a few heavy weapons you'll see how strong multi damage weapons are to big stuff. So i can see armies of all big stuff or all Hordes doing well by having target denial.
As for your list note you have to set up as many units on the table as you deploy in reserves. scout sentinels a neat, cheap, and can support your ambush dudes well. You'll realizes those characters + unit of dudes will take up a lot of your drops quite quickly. The same goes with the small units of acolytes.
a note on lots of different melee units, focusing down single units is important, and you start to run out of space to fit multiple units into single targets. The way the rules work big melee units are great because they fight in two ranks more or less. Also note you can deploy them in ambush on the fly, and some maps let you deploy so aggressively that you might need to ambush to much if you get to pick. spear head assault is great, lets you deploy close to the enemy, and means have have to roll badly twice for cult ambush, as thier is only one bad table edge. The same cult ambush roll goes for hammer and anvil. Search and destroy is also okay as you can deploy aggressivly.
On the board:
2x magus w/ 1 familiar
icon ward
2x (10x neophtyes 2x lauchers)
2x (10x neophtyes 2x mining laser)
2x (single unit) scouts w/ heavy flamer
This list goes with big cult ambush units to alpha strike stuff down, and trys to sure up the RNG by bring neophytes who have few bad rolls for cult ambush, and lets me get some damage done even if all the cult ambushes come up bananas. Scout sentinels can a very tough surprisingly, and can turn 1 charge to eat over watch.
Down sides with this list is that i'm nervous i can be table easily?? from what i played this didn't happen, but i feel like it should be possible??
for the points of neophytes, dont you prefer a detachement of astra militarum?
They shoot better with orders, are cheaper, and with a cheap comissar you "dont have moral". (for example 3 infantery squads with 1 heavy weapon each, 3/4 speacial squads, creed, and some other character)
Also for the points of 20 genestealers, you can have 20 hybrids and 6!! heavy weapons. Hybrids are weaker, but they are much more versatile, because they can deal with hordes and with big creatures.
I think that GW need to check points of us units :(
However, i'm using the neophytes to keep my magus (s??? i??? plural) on the table. Neophtyes do this abit better as they protect from snipers via unquestioned loyalty. Also while they shoot better with orders your only boosting the shooting of your rapid fire weapons, and you can only hit 10 guys per order so your adding a 15 or 20 point price tag on the top of each guard unit... to shoot lasguns twice or to shoot less than 1/6th better with reroll 1's. Also a neophtye squad can be pretty tough in melee as they can get magus buffered allowing them to attacck twice at str 4, and the squad being buffed can be a 20 man squad with a power weapon (though i'm not sure the weapon is worth it??? maybe??) Edit: also our neophytes can hop in a truck, which is also suprizingly tough and can shoot freely from it, allow you to retain all your heavy weapon attacks.
Genestealers you super right and i was thinking the samething this morning, i was also thinking about metamorphs. Also you say hybrids are weaker but are they?? 20 genestealers= 80 attacks that result in 33 wounds against a marine 10 of which are rending. VS vs 32 acolytes (for the same cost) will do more than 36 wounds against marines with 12 of them being rending. I didn't even do the math for the cult knifes or factor in the reroll 1's.
Metamorphs don't seem to shabby if you can give them all whips, which is doable if you just take all the whips out and make all the other guys acolytes . Both units make 3 and 4 attacks a turn, but all the metamorph attacks are rending. Where as the acolytes have on of thier attacks that that is the cult knife. So maybe we won't field genestealers at all. The reason i first consider genestealers worth it was due to the fact that the patriarch his worth his points solo with not only his damage compared to acolytes or other units in our army, but also his psychic and morale protection. While also being cheaper than the tyranid variant.
My biggest issue with GSCatm.. Is that you are pretty much always going to go 2nd...
I am thinking I am going to have to invest in some Guard
Deploy Guard to hold the table then ambush with GSC
Yeah very disappointed with Metamorphs... there is basically no reason to take them over a Purestrain Genestear, my reasoning is that Invun save will keep more alive if I don't get a good ambush (or charge)
vercingatorix wrote: I'm pretty disappointed in losing return to shadows. We're a better alpha strike army than ever before but that's all we can do. Kind of frustrating that we're shoehorned so hard into one strategy.
If we get first turn. So basically at the start of the game roll for who goes first, if you don't you've lost.
They took away the thing GSC hinged on and gave it no alternative means to balance it by. Same movement speed as humans, paper armor, almost exclusively CC in an edition that somehow managed to favor shooting over close combat more than even 7th, and no real good way to get there when your opponent can defeat you with the deep strategy of walking slowly the opposite direction.
How the gak don't hybrids have move 7 or fleet or something about movement?
If we get first turn. So basically at the start of the game roll for who goes first, if you don't you've lost.
They took away the thing GSC hinged on and gave it no alternative means to balance it by. Same movement speed as humans, paper armor, almost exclusively CC in an edition that somehow managed to favor shooting over close combat more than even 7th, and no real good way to get there when your opponent can defeat you with the deep strategy of walking slowly the opposite direction.
First turn goes to who finishes deploying first, unless seized
The new rules have changed the focus of GSC a fair bit. Entirely foot GSC lists are just not going to cut it as much as it use to especially with the loss of RTS.. This means we need to look at transports more seriously
Rockgrinders are awesome.. not quite as sold on the Goliath..
But I do intend to get some guard to have along side my GSC maybe some bassies and Valkyries
First @Danny slag your abit wrong in favors shooting alot. I'd say 40k does favor shooting, but melee can be amazing in this game, and first turn charges are devasting.
genestealers don't nessarily beat out metamorphs. if you give them whips meta morphs are 15 points a model to genestealers 18, and the meta morphs can reroll 1's to hit, and with a +1 to hit they reroll everything. a little math hammer we get 24 metamorphs with whips vs 20 genestealers with whips. you'll get 35 damage going out against marines before saves and 11 at -4 ap. comparitively genestealers will put out 33 and 10 respectively. So dont count out metamorphs.
I got to mess around with transports, and they work out pretty nicely. They are as said our pet bet for finishing deployment first. As most elite armies can ahve anywhere from 10-15 drops.
The trucks:They don't just disappear right away even under some heavy fire. That 6 up save can be clutch. The open top let this thing be a porcupine of the highest order. two mining laser with the auto cannon and the heavy stubber ontop of all the autogun shots put out some serious dakka. The demo charges that i took for testing sake, were meh as i really only drove one truck up all that close. Might only be good if you hit out the squads inside for close range??
The chimeras were neat, but when the trucks just sorta stole the lime light as they just put out so many shots. Even the flamer dude was kind of meh because it took a turn to get into range due to the map we played on. I put shot gun dudes inside because thier weapons didn't matter and figured i could use the chimeras as a way to get them up the table, but the ambushing shotgun guys did the work quicker with more models and at a cheaper price.
Right now i'm in camp trucks. Those things are fun fun fun. Both transports had a chance to take advantage of disembarking out of a transport in combat. This was cool because you popped out and just shot dudes in the face unless we read rules wrong. I'm definitly more of a transport fan now, and i'm just gonna stick everything i deploy on the table in transports.
I also tried buffing a 20 man neophyte units with +1 atk/str worked wonders was really funny.
Edit: on defending our genestealers they are the unit we can make that can do the most damage as one activation in combat against horde units. They will be that unit you look at when you need to kill a unit as they will be the one unit that can put out the most damage against most thing not vehicles or monsters.
Has anyone considered adding tyranid genestealers instead of guard? Or adding one or two big bugs? Another question are tyranid and guard mutually exclusive in the gsc list or can we mix and match as long as we have more cult than other?
Timeshadow wrote: Has anyone considered adding tyranid genestealers instead of guard? Or adding one or two big bugs? Another question are tyranid and guard mutually exclusive in the gsc list or can we mix and match as long as we have more cult than other?
I was thinking in mix all, i like genestealers from tyranids and with 1/2 broodlords to have psych powers (that affects to cult)
but there arent points for all XD
Also , if you only have a few combat units deployed on the table, the enemy will kill them easy.
So id prefer a lot of small guard units to shoot a little (with mortars) and ambush with all units from genestealers cult.
If we get first turn. So basically at the start of the game roll for who goes first, if you don't you've lost.
They took away the thing GSC hinged on and gave it no alternative means to balance it by. Same movement speed as humans, paper armor, almost exclusively CC in an edition that somehow managed to favor shooting over close combat more than even 7th, and no real good way to get there when your opponent can defeat you with the deep strategy of walking slowly the opposite direction.
First turn goes to who finishes deploying first, unless seized
The new rules have changed the focus of GSC a fair bit. Entirely foot GSC lists are just not going to cut it as much as it use to especially with the loss of RTS.. This means we need to look at transports more seriously
Rockgrinders are awesome.. not quite as sold on the Goliath..
But I do intend to get some guard to have along side my GSC maybe some bassies and Valkyries
in response to rock grinders and goliaths, yet another shaft GSC got. They don't get cult ambush so now you have to either choose to not take them and try for a decent cult ambush roll, or take them and forgo even attempting to ambush. Just bad design all around because it essentially punishes you for even trying to use the armies core ability. And especially now that you can only try it on half, and only once per game. That means max you'll be doing 2-3 cult ambush rolls a game, those are really bad odds. So it's actually in your best interest to not use cult ambush now because you have to plan around that from the list building phase instead of making that decision during deployment or during the game. Return to the shadows let you use tactics on the fly, this shoehorns you into "well are you feeling lucky when you build your list?"
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mmimzie wrote: First @Danny slag your abit wrong in favors shooting alot. I'd say 40k does favor shooting, but melee can be amazing in this game, and first turn charges are devasting..
i totally agree first turn charges are devastating to what they charge, but really how common is that going to be? my army for example has 8 units. i can only cult ambush 4 max, of those 4 only half the die rolls even put you in a possible charge position, so 2, of those 2 only 1/4th of the units will make their random charge roll. so on average (and yes I know those are fast and loose numbers so this is probably off a few percent) you're looking at getting one unit first turn charging every other game. And when you do manage to pull that one charge off the unit is isolated, has no means to escape back to shadows, while whatever it charged simply saunters away and deletes your GSC unit.
Just seems to me like if they took away the entire flavor of GSC because sometimes if you got real lucky fishing for good ambush rolls you could murder things. It's like taking power armor away from space marines.
The whole balance of a random table is you roll on it enough to fish for good results that the bad and the good even out. But they seemed to think it was an issue that sometimes it does go well for the GSC player. So now they're neutering the good and leaving only the randomness and where the best result you get is still not anywhere near the risk off the bad results, because we sure can't have any necron or tau players getting assaulted, that would just be unacceptable to the tournament community. Do any of the other deepstriking armies have to pick a random table edge? no, they get to make tactical decisions about their deep-strike (or whatever their particular armies calls it) ours gett's slapped in the junk if we use it and roll a 1-3, a result that is worse than if we'd just deployed them normally.
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Timeshadow wrote: Has anyone considered adding tyranid genestealers instead of guard? Or adding one or two big bugs? Another question are tyranid and guard mutually exclusive in the gsc list or can we mix and match as long as we have more cult than other?
This was my plan, i was going to add some big nid bugs since our stuff is pretty squishy and now has to start on table and can't heal or leave (yet we still pay the same points after losing those rules, yes I'm salty) But here's the problem there. They've stated that your army benefits are going to be better the more specific your 'faction' and your army is of the faction that every unit has. For IG no prob because the rules address this by stating you still count as GSC faction, but for tyranid they don't, so if you take nids you are no longer a GSC faction and lose any benefits or command thingies for GSC. We haven't seen what they are yet, so who knows what you'll lose, but you will lose rules and they've said multiple times the more specific faction benefits are better than the broad ones.
in response to rock grinders and goliaths, yet another shaft GSC got. They don't get cult ambush so now
They never got Cult Ambush...
TBH.. It was silly with 7th end where I would deploy first to get me first turn.. then only place a single Leman Russ tank, and then once my opponent deploys actually deploy my army via Infiltrate Ambush, and possibly get first blood before the game even started, and with how the Changes to Heavy Weapons and deep strike works in general, the old Mechanics for GSC would of been Overpowered. With how Morale works in this edition I plan to take 2 possibly 3 Patriarchs and then larger squads of Acolytes and Genestealers for the Immune to morale bubbles, then support them with units in Rockgrinders.. Stll need to paly around with points.. but as Characters and units 'deploy' as one as with units in Transports.. there is potential to really bring down the amount of 'units' to deploy and give a higher chance of 1st turn... But still need to play with the numbers
On the Question someone else asked if you could take Both Tyranids, and Guard with your GSC, the answer is No, as Tyranids and Guard do not share a Faction Key Word
With this list I plan on only have 8 deploying units.. which will give me greater chance of T1 the risk involved is only 3 units rolling on the Ambush table, I would be half tempted to walk with 1/2 and only risk 1 Ambush depending on what I was facing
Edit: Characters Ambush with a unit.. but still 'deploy' in Ambush separately for deployment
mmimzie wrote: First @Danny slag your abit wrong in favors shooting alot. I'd say 40k does favor shooting, but melee can be amazing in this game, and first turn charges are devasting..
i totally agree first turn charges are devastating to what they charge, but really how common is that going to be? my army for example has 8 units. i can only cult ambush 4 max, of those 4 only half the die rolls even put you in a possible charge position, so 2, of those 2 only 1/4th of the units will make their random charge roll. so on average (and yes I know those are fast and loose numbers so this is probably off a few percent) you're looking at getting one unit first turn charging every other game. And when you do manage to pull that one charge off the unit is isolated, has no means to escape back to shadows, while whatever it charged simply saunters away and deletes your GSC unit.
Just seems to me like if they took away the entire flavor of GSC because sometimes if you got real lucky fishing for good ambush rolls you could murder things. It's like taking power armor away from space marines.
The whole balance of a random table is you roll on it enough to fish for good results that the bad and the good even out. But they seemed to think it was an issue that sometimes it does go well for the GSC player. So now they're neutering the good and leaving only the randomness and where the best result you get is still not anywhere near the risk off the bad results, because we sure can't have any necron or tau players getting assaulted, that would just be unacceptable to the tournament community. Do any of the other deepstriking armies have to pick a random table edge? no, they get to make tactical decisions about their deep-strike (or whatever their particular armies calls it) ours gett's slapped in the junk if we use it and roll a 1-3, a result that is worse than if we'd just deployed them normally.
First turn charges are more common for genestealer cult than they are now, and the likely hood you'll get a good ambush is mines higher than now. In 7th you had a 1/6 chance to get a charge off, and from there you could be shot off the table before you had a chance to try again on top of that. This edition you have a 2/6 chance to come on the table how you want. The primus lets you reroll your result so it's a 2/6 rerolling which is pretty close to a 50/50 change in charge the turn your arrive. On top of that you can reroll 1 cult ambush per turn, so you have reroll multiple cult ambushes in one turn, and several over the course of the game. As some one who has been messing around with 8th since marchish i can say pretty confidently first turn charges are not unlikely. Having done 9 and gotten at least 1 turn one charge on 7 of those games..... it's pretty common. Basicly if you have a primus with his unit and a patriarch with another unit and you use the a command reroll on your patriarch your trying to roll a 5+ on 4d6 to get a turn one charge. Won't happen every time, but it should happen most times. Oh, i'll also add these 4d6 will work for 4 units as well as the primus and patriarch can bring units with them so if you get one good result that is two good turn one charges, and the primus and patriarch do work. (Edit to put it simply and to compare to 7th since for some reason you wish to do this, even though this game is pretty much rebuilt from the ground up. IF you had your units in the subterranian uprizes you would need to roll your 2 dice, go back into the shadows, and then roll your 2 dice again to get the same odds as you do in one turn of rerolling 5+ to get your charge off.)
A lot of folks are in this place where they are basicly saying "things are different from before... it's terrible." Having played it we are in a good place. It's less fishing all game playing wack amole until you can pull off a charge or praying your dudes don't get blasted off the table, and more just play the game and pretty much always get your cult ambush, and some times you ambush won't go as planned, and other times you get 2 turn 1 charges. Also note a whole host of armies will be doing turn 1 charges, we just get to do them with the lowest point investment or with the biggest and most versatile units.
With this list I plan on only have 8 deploying units.. which will give me greater chance of T1 the risk involved is only 3 units rolling on the Ambush table, I would be half tempted to walk with 1/2 and only risk 1 Ambush depending on what I was facing
Edit: Characters Ambush with a unit.. but still 'deploy' in Ambush separately for deployment
Nice list, yeah characters in cars can be cool, but then your have a lot of points invested into a one place, and alpha strike list that out deploy you like teleport grey knights could give you trouble. WIth smite spam, and ability to open up your cars, while also having lots of points invested into expensive troop blocks. They could out deploy you and drop your cars and threaten you heros ( i say threaten as also killing them would be a bit tough, but good rolls could suck). Also cars are also vulnerable to being turn one charged. If i turn 1 charge your car, and give you no way to get out. Your rock grinder while it is tough in melee, only hitting 5+ and not having had charged will be hard pressed to get out of combat. I can keep a tarpit neophyte unit around your car for 4 or 5 turns preventing you from both retreating and from disembarking your models inside. You might consider instead the truck as you can not only fit more models, but atleast the acolytes inside you seem to wish to spam can shoot out with pistols to clear up any tarpit chaffe that want to surround you. I'd recommend flamers as then your to hit roll can be ignored as well.
Patriarchs are good and are one of our advantages over our tyranid brothers as he is cheaper and better. All your cult ambush in your list needs to roll that 5 or 6, but your low on primus. You can only reroll one die a turn ,and as such it might delay your desire to cult ambush longer than you might like. A primus will let you reroll 2 abmushes in a single turn when combined with a command point, as i mentioned earlier in this post.
(edit: don't load all up on upgrades. This is still a thing. The more upgrades you buy the more you are forced to rely on alpha strikes to land, and the less time you have. If you have alt he special weapons you can get your units will get turned to paste quickly, and you'll find yourself tabled in no time.
Edit 2: you didn't pay for heavy stubbers on your grinders. These aren't free.)
I'll post my most recent list. The way it preformed today i think i can safely sat this will be what i'll be refining going into 8th.
So the rock grinder damage wise is okay??? Scout sentials do the flamer things waaaaaaay better, and it's neat when you charge and soaks damage well for your army to prevent some overwatch, but the real point of it is is that 1 or 2 iconwards and or both of the magus can jump inside the grinder so that i can bring my deployment down to 10.
Shotgun neophytes are great on the ambush as they are really consistent and work well with most cult ambush results. So they can drop early and clean stuff up. They do what the scout sentinels, but way better. On a bad ambush they'll kill a few marines and mess up a fire warrior squad pretty bad, but on a good roll they should be able to take out most other army's troops in one go. They can do better when paired with a magus and if they roll wellyou can charge with them and buff them up to really bully enemy troops, and lock units in thier transports.
Melee weapons really feel like they have to be stacked together. So i did that. One unit with the cutter is the best at taking out lords of war/vehicles/bg bads the better AP just gets you there. The drills are a little more versatile and can take out tough units or horde units as the mortal wounds spill over, and so they are a flex unit. The genestealer unit slice through all your basic troops and characters.
