DarkStarSabre wrote: To be honest I've come to think that for GSC it's....different.
Our meta-detachment is by far our strongest - the reserves tweaking, the Return to Shadows replenshing and the mass Infilitrate does a lot of work for GSC as a whole.
However, we also benefit from a secondary CAD or some secondary formations - more warp charge dice and additional Primus' for your Subterranean Assaults, or additional Patriarchs to make your 'assault' units even more monstrous.
I would say however that the CAD is secondary to the meta-detachment in terms of strength. I'd not splash points into the CAD simply because our meta-detachment just benefits us that much more as do the formations.
Sure, CAD Acolytes have ObSec.
But Insurrection Acolytes have Shrouded on Turn 1 and the ability to replenish their numbers when they Return to the Shadows.
I'd say, with the CAD to run it very, very barebones. I'm honestly thinking of basically going Primus, Patriarch and 2 min squads of Acolytes. Extra Warp Charge, another Primus to further reinforce the Uprising and direct them and another Patriarch to throw into a unit - possibly even into one of my Cavalcade Neophyte squads.
Literally exactly how I'm running my side CAD. Still would like to trim down my list to run two allied flyrants for actual warp charge punch (and you know, AA, durable units, etc) but for pure GSC I definitely think that's the way to go
Yeah, I'm liking the thought of a secondary Patriarch sitting in one of the Cavalcade's Chimeras with them. Suddenly it turns the suicide squads (one with double flamer, one with double grenade launcher, double flamer chimera - sole purpose being to mass burn a blob and maybe pop shots into the rear armour of something) into something more threatening.
The Patriarch is terrifying. I will always, ALWAYS run Biomancy on them just for the chance of Iron Arm. Iron Arm turns the Patriarch into a straight up warlord-slayer. With Iron Arm it kills vehicles too.
Heck, even the base Patriarch is quite frightening. Even more so if he's accompanied by anything - even base Neophytes. That's 10 free floating wounds for you to use as you please. They hitting you with something you think you can soak or is minimal threat (say S3 attacks in assault). Eh, no biggy. What's that, an ID force weapon? Throw the redshirt in front of it!
Well, my codex almost got sent to New Zealand, so I was unlucky and didn't get to take it with me on vacation, but what is the opinion on taking large numbers of magos and doting throng formations. Looking at a potential summoner list.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Well, my codex almost got sent to New Zealand, so I was unlucky and didn't get to take it with me on vacation, but what is the opinion on taking large numbers of magos and doting throng formations. Looking at a potential summoner list.
Its do able is the simplest answer
basically has the same advantages and disadvantages as a daemon summon list.
On another forum someone posted a list that was just 8xCAD with 2 magus and 2 neophyte squads in each
I think if you want to spam summoning, bring two flyrants to the party.
The biggest problem with spamming summoning is that your summoners will be dead on turn 3 or 4, and you don't have a way to guarantee success because you don't have enough warp charge unless you have a ton of CADs. Most psychic heavy armies have some way to cast more efficiently. I would say that most games you'll only be attempting to summon once or twice a game, and that's mostly dependent on the d6 roll. The kitted out squads are super cool though - can't wait to summon a free acolyte squad with 4 heavy rock saws and all the fixings or gene stealers all with scything talons. Shame the patriarch isn't a "squad upgrade" anymore haha.
Plus, if you want to build a list around it, what if you don't roll summoning? At best, you have like 8 tries, and you *SHOULD* get it, but if that's the point of your list and you don't.....whoops. Although that whole discipline is excellent.
luke1705 wrote: Plus, if you want to build a list around it, what if you don't roll summoning? At best, you have like 8 tries, and you *SHOULD* get it, but if that's the point of your list and you don't.....whoops. Although that whole discipline is excellent.
If you go for the 8xCAD option you get 32 chances to get it =D
Are we sure that if we join a primus from CAD in a unit from subterrain uprising, they will roll 3 dices?
With the faqs, if a independent character joins a unit from a formation, the IC doesnt win the rules from the formation, and some times, the formation lose their benefits (for example the skyhamer annihilation force) I see this formation the same as annihilation force.
zamerion wrote: Are we sure that if we join a primus from CAD in a unit from subterrain uprising, they will roll 3 dices?
With the faqs, if a independent character joins a unit from a formation, the IC doesnt win the rules from the formation, and some times, the formation lose their benefits (for example the skyhamer annihilation force) I see this formation the same as annihilation force.
Meticulous Planner states 'a Primus'. Not 'the Primus from this formation.' Just 'a Primus'. The Primus himself meets the requirements for Cult Ambush, Retreat to the Shadows and Infiltrate by default. The Primus is also a 0-1 choice so is not mandatory for the formation.
Plus this strikes me as something that persists as you have other characters not available in the formation that you may likely attach due to the Insurrection detachment or standard CADs - Iconwards, Patriarchs - all things you may stick into a unit. Considering that GSC are an army based around stacking bubbles, more so than Tyranids or Eldar it would be odd for formations to exclude this.
tetrisphreak wrote: I started rolling for cult ambush and got a "6" on the metamorphs that had the broodcoven attached
Not sure if possible - the Broodcoven must be deployed as a single unit. Doesn't that imply that they must wait until their movement phase before they can join a unit?
Nobody likes to use acolytes hybryds from subterranean suprising as kamikazes?
5 of them with 1 demolition charge and 4 fire pistol are 80 pnts. Rolling 2 dices is easy to get 4/5/6 to trow the demolition charges in the middle of the enemy army.
tetrisphreak wrote: I started rolling for cult ambush and got a "6" on the metamorphs that had the broodcoven attached
Not sure if possible - the Broodcoven must be deployed as a single unit. Doesn't that imply that they must wait until their movement phase before they can join a unit?
The limitation of being deployed as a single unit refers to the 3 of them being together. It does not say they cannot also deploy with a unit. The independent character rule states they can so it doesn't break any rules if they begin attached to a unit so long as all 3 are together.
If you're considering adding a CAD for the extra warp charge, any reason to not just roll with an extra Brood Coven? That way, you get the WC you want plus a Primus to potentially make a SU unit more reliable. You obviously lose a lot of flexibility doing so, but the extra formation bonuses are poretty sweet. A large unit or Acolytes or Metamorphs would be very happy with your selections!
MilkmanAl wrote: If you're considering adding a CAD for the extra warp charge, any reason to not just roll with an extra Brood Coven? That way, you get the WC you want plus a Primus to potentially make a SU unit more reliable. You obviously lose a lot of flexibility doing so, but the extra formation bonuses are poretty sweet. A large unit or Acolytes or Metamorphs would be very happy with your selections!
If you are running the Decurion, you aren't allowed to have more than 1 of each of the HQs. That's one reason why you may not run 2 Brood Covens. If you weren't limited by 3 sources, you could run 2 Brood Covens out of the Decurion (or one in and one out). That being said - I think Primus' outside of the decurion opens up ObSec Ambush units which, in my opinion, is the strongest part of the codex.
Sorry, I meant a Brood Coven outside of your Decurion instead of a CAD. I could definitely get behind some ambushing heavy weapon Neophytes, but you might be better off saving the points and strengthening your Decurion with SU units.
MilkmanAl wrote: If you're considering adding a CAD for the extra warp charge, any reason to not just roll with an extra Brood Coven? That way, you get the WC you want plus a Primus to potentially make a SU unit more reliable. You obviously lose a lot of flexibility doing so, but the extra formation bonuses are poretty sweet. A large unit or Acolytes or Metamorphs would be very happy with your selections!
Flexibility.
The main reason is Flexibility. Suppose I want to stick this second Patriarch in another Stealer brood or, as I said in the Cavalcade. Can't do that with the Coven.
Suppose I want to stick just the primus in one of the Uprising broods to guide them a bit better.
Problem with the Coven is that it's very inflexible. It takes 4 transport spots - which immediately prevents it being joined to the Cavalcade. It forces the characters together - which immediately prevents it from joining any Purestrain broods (they can only be joined by a Patriarch).
I really don't like the Coven as it forces the eggs in one basket approach. A second Primus and Patriarch are far scarier a prospect when they can be on opposite ends of the board pressuring different units. But lumped together? A single threat.
I completely agree overall. The flexibility is a big deal. That said, if all you're looking for is warp charges from the CAD, the Coven prevents you from having to choose between 2 more WC (either Patriarch or Magus) and a Primus.
One thing I'm just not seeing for this army is what to do for anti air except ally in some flying dakka tyrants or.... whatever the hell guard uses (hydras? Laser pointers?) I made a list I liked using am and gsc, but two dakka jets would just destroy it.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't see why you can't take a small fort, and a anti air gun though...?
Partly because I tend to forget about fortifications (I've played almost nothing but Tyranids for the past year or two.) An Imperial Strongpoint might not be a bad idea... only downside is it's very static in a very non-static army. I had thought about taking the... ugh... IG detachment with 1 CCS, 1 Manticore, and 2 Basilisks though. Could work well with that.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't see why you can't take a small fort, and a anti air gun though...?
Partly because I tend to forget about fortifications (I've played almost nothing but Tyranids for the past year or two.) An Imperial Strongpoint might not be a bad idea... only downside is it's very static in a very non-static army. I had thought about taking the... ugh... IG detachment with 1 CCS, 1 Manticore, and 2 Basilisks though. Could work well with that.
Try a vengeance weapon battery maybe? Those don't need babysitting.
zamerion wrote: Nobody likes to use acolytes hybryds from subterranean suprising as kamikazes?
5 of them with 1 demolition charge and 4 fire pistol are 80 pnts. Rolling 2 dices is easy to get 4/5/6 to trow the demolition charges in the middle of the enemy army.
And you can use 4 units of them.
I hadn't thought of using them that way, but it sounds like a dun idea.
Lansirill wrote: One thing I'm just not seeing for this army is what to do for anti air except ally in some flying dakka tyrants or.... whatever the hell guard uses (hydras? Laser pointers?) I made a list I liked using am and gsc, but two dakka jets would just destroy it.
Why do you even want to bother with anti air. If your doing this army right your going MSU. 2 dakka jets can kill two units a piece if and when they ever come in thanks to -1 reserves. As someone posted earlier, ally in a CCS from the cadian battle group for an officer of the fleet and thats a -2 to any reserve roll.
Yeah with cover and return to the shadows, I'm really not seeing airpower as something that we have to care about. They have to land to score (I'm ok with that!) and I would love to hear about the model that can make it points back against 8 point models taking cover saves that can regenerate every other turn. Do tell me why I should care about air.
I was mostly thinking that Flyrants would be good for a decent chance at first blood (just in case you don't roll sixes) as well as durable warp charge batteries. Sadly, you can't make them a warlord (or, I should say, I don't think you should because then your patriarch can't get to CHOOSE HIS AMBUSH RESULT 1/3 games).
FYI I have played 2 games and not had my warlord in the first curse roll this trait yet.....I AM DUE haha
zamerion wrote: Nobody likes to use acolytes hybryds from subterranean suprising as kamikazes?
5 of them with 1 demolition charge and 4 fire pistol are 80 pnts. Rolling 2 dices is easy to get 4/5/6 to trow the demolition charges in the middle of the enemy army.
And you can use 4 units of them.
You can only throw a demo charge from Ambush on a 6 result. They have a 6" range and all other results on the ambush table specify you have to be more than 6" from the enemy and cannot move.
I suppose if you're really lucky and you get the first or second result it's possible to move onto the board from the edge and demo charge an enemy who was sitting too close, but there are way too many variables there.
This gives great Anti air 5 backfield units to camp objectives freeing your units for more cult ambush and adds 10 Warp charge so you can do all the fun cult psy shanigans.
zamerion wrote: Nobody likes to use acolytes hybryds from subterranean suprising as kamikazes?
5 of them with 1 demolition charge and 4 fire pistol are 80 pnts. Rolling 2 dices is easy to get 4/5/6 to trow the demolition charges in the middle of the enemy army.
And you can use 4 units of them.
You can only throw a demo charge from Ambush on a 6 result. They have a 6" range and all other results on the ambush table specify you have to be more than 6" from the enemy and cannot move.
I suppose if you're really lucky and you get the first or second result it's possible to move onto the board from the edge and demo charge an enemy who was sitting too close, but there are way too many variables there.
If at the end cult ambush is infiltrate, you can use it in deployment, that isnt a turn. Its a different phase, so you can move in your movement phase of your turn. (cult ambush rule said that you cant move in the phase movement of THE TURN that you use it)
luke1705 wrote: Yeah with cover and return to the shadows, I'm really not seeing airpower as something that we have to care about. They have to land to score (I'm ok with that!) and I would love to hear about the model that can make it points back against 8 point models taking cover saves that can regenerate every other turn. Do tell me why I should care about air.
I was mostly thinking that Flyrants would be good for a decent chance at first blood (just in case you don't roll sixes) as well as durable warp charge batteries. Sadly, you can't make them a warlord (or, I should say, I don't think you should because then your patriarch can't get to CHOOSE HIS AMBUSH RESULT 1/3 games).
FYI I have played 2 games and not had my warlord in the first curse roll this trait yet.....I AM DUE haha
I've played 3 games and still hadn't that trait yet
luke1705 wrote: Yeah with cover and return to the shadows, I'm really not seeing airpower as something that we have to care about. They have to land to score (I'm ok with that!) and I would love to hear about the model that can make it points back against 8 point models taking cover saves that can regenerate every other turn. Do tell me why I should care about air.
I was mostly thinking that Flyrants would be good for a decent chance at first blood (just in case you don't roll sixes) as well as durable warp charge batteries. Sadly, you can't make them a warlord (or, I should say, I don't think you should because then your patriarch can't get to CHOOSE HIS AMBUSH RESULT 1/3 games).
FYI I have played 2 games and not had my warlord in the first curse roll this trait yet.....I AM DUE haha
I've played 3 games and still hadn't that trait yet
Ive got it once out of my 3 games so far and it was great they wiped their target but then they got incenerated by some outflanking tanks. Note GSC vs GSC is crazy. Ambushes against ambushing ambushers sigh so up and down. lol.
It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
Subterranean Uprising
3x10 metamorphs w/ claws and icons each
2x10 acolytes w 2/ saws and icons each
1 Primus, familiar
Lord of the Cult
Patriarch
Lord of the Cult
lvl2 Magos w/ crouchling
CAD 2x Primus, familiar
2x10 neophytes
Which do people feel is better? The first has 8 WC and a First Cursed, but fewer heavy weapons on the neophytes and a less effective uprising. The second stocks up on Primuses to maximise the effectiveness of the uprising, and is able to fit in a few more heavy weapons.
Just played a 1k game against an inquisition/deathwatch army, yeah I know, quite a fluffy game.
My list was a brood cycle with a subterranean uprising, a patriarch and a magos. The only upgrades were saws on the uprising acolytes; grenades launchers and autocannons on the neophytes, 2 familiars and ML2 on the Patriarch and ML and the crouchling on the Magos.
His list was a very well equipped marine squad with an inquisitor and those frag cannons in a pod, a dreadknight, and 3 acolyte squads with meltas and jakero in chimeras.
Mission was deadlock, he had first turn so I only deployed 3 acolytes, of which one was killed by the Marines.
The rest of the game was my list picking apart his acolytes as the Marines were to far away of anything at the other corner of the map.
N.I.B. wrote: It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.
N.I.B. wrote: It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.
Mauls and Picks, both legitimately and surprisingly useful. Don't forget, you don't HAVE to deploy those 3 inches away. You can if you want but you can also deploy your backline Neophytes back line.
Played my third game tonight with GSC vs a war convocation. Was curious to see how they would do against a good list (although tbh I don't know war con well enough to be able to tell if it's a super competitive war con list).
Short story shorter - I finally got the 6 warlord trait. I went first, but since everyone was cult ambushing, he still had to deploy before me. So I infiltrate all my units before the warlord patriarch with first curse to give myself the most options. A subterranean 10 man metamorph unit with claws and banner gets 2 sixes! A subterranean 20 man acolyte squad with primus and banner and heavy rock saw gets 3 sixes! Of course I roll no other sixes haha but still those three units were devastating. Got a 3 squad multi-assault with the warlord's unit, killed a knight with the acolytes and killed a 5 man squadron of dragoons with the metamorphs. I used the brood mind power to have his destroyers shoot his other squad of destroyers (this was actually what netted me first blood).
Edit: In retrospect, I mis-read the broodmind mind control power, so I got 18 shots instead of the 6 shots I should have taken. It wouldn't have changed much of anything, but it's good to read the power properly. Sucks to gain an advantage that you shouldn't have, even if it doesn't change the result of the game.
He conceded after the top of 1 with his army in shambles. I almost certainly would have tabled him on turn 2, as I had about 5 squads coming in again from ambush, having decided that I didn't need them turn 1 and returned them to the shadows (1 of which was my 2nd subterranean squad of 20 acolytes + primus + chain fist + banner). I felt bad as he literally never even took his turn because all of the ambush rolls went so well for me. The psychic powers were very good also. Would have been difficult to pick much better pre-game rolls. I can see why some people can feel like GSC is OP when the rolls are good. They don't remember the games when the rolls are bad though haha. Also, people generally seem to have very little ignores cover in my meta at least (don't know how much this applies to other metas but you need ignores cover to ruin GSC's day)
Looks like I mis-read that power. Not sure if that's really worth casting at warp charge 2, let alone 3 most of the time. Tau are pretty sad though, whether it's a riptide or a stormsurge. Some Eldar ranged D on that wraithknight would be nice also. Other than that, it's probably pretty situational, as most models are probably not so powerful as to make good use of it. Maybe grav cents and such.
It seems like just about everyone is hopping on the MSU bandwagon, but is anyone giving larger units a try? I really like the sound of a hugeAcolyte unit with a Primus and saws (and banner!) multicharging the pants off everything. Theoretically, you could do that x3 and have a First Curse with warlord Patriarch all vying for relatively reliable T1 charges in 1850. Each unit has a ~50% chance of getting that Cult Ambush 6 everyone loves, so you're quite likely to have at least one unit up and running.
That's 1880, so maybe take out 4 total Acolytes from the big units? You certainly don't sacrifice much in the way of having tons of units to teleport around the board, and those Primus-led Acolytes and First Curse units pack a massive punch. It's worth a shot!
MilkmanAl wrote: It seems like just about everyone is hopping on the MSU bandwagon, but is anyone giving larger units a try? I really like the sound of a huge Acolyte unit with a Primus and saws (and banner!) multicharging the pants off everything. Theoretically, you could do that x3 and have a First Curse with warlord Patriarch all vying for relatively reliable T1 charges in 1850. Each unit has a ~50% chance of getting that Cult Ambush 6 everyone loves, so you're quite likely to have at least one unit up and running.
That's pretty similar to my list. I drop the third acolyte squad in the subterranean formation to give me a second maxed out genestealer squad led by a patriarch (from the brood cycle). I use a CADHQ slot for that. So I also sacrifice a third primus in my subterranean formation but the third squad still gets 2 rolls. It also allows me to max out the other 2 squads with a banner, a chain saw and 20 guys. Sadly, I don't have points for the magus though.
It's probably better to not have the second squad of genestealers, although the 5++ is really nice, and stealth is great too. The down side is they have no Cult Ambush mitigation, so if I roll poorly they're just a giant area denial blob. Could be worse I suppose.
Also, if you count the turn 1 and turn 2 rolls, it's substantially better than 50% chance for a primus-led blob squads.
Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together? A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No.
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
[i]
I still thinking that if you put characters from out the formation, you will lose roll 2/3 dice.
Formation said that you roll 3 dices if a primus join some unit. But with the faq, the only primus permitted is the primus that is par of the formation, the other primus arent.
zamerion wrote: Q: If I’m using a special Detachment, such as the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, and add Independent Characters from Battle Brother Factions (e.g. the Librarius Conclave), can they all still benefit from the first turn deployment and come in together? A: No, the rules for Detachments and Formations only apply to models/units that are part of the Detachment or Formation. Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No.
Q: Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation command benefits (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit-wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters?
A: No.
[i]
I still thinking that if you put characters from out the formation, you will lose roll 2/3 dice.
Formation said that you roll 3 dices if a primus join some unit. But with the faq, the only primus permitted is the primus that is par of the formation, the other primus arent.
I agree with regards to Magos and/or Patriarchs joining - but the wording does explicitly state "a Primus". I feel like this is enough for an exception, or at least to argue for it based on it being intended even if not strictly following RAW - otherwise why use the word "a" rather than "the Primus from this formation"?
I guess the inconsistency is that if an outside Primus joins and gets the 3d6, why can you not add another character to the unit and still get the 2/3d6...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the rule wording is: Meticulous Planner: If a unit in this Formation has been joined by a Primus, you can roll three dice instead of one when rolling on the Cult Ambush table for this unit, and select any one of the three results.
I think I feel like this because of the second use of "this unit" - which I took to mean the unit and the Primus, as stated in the first sentence. I am aware that this is very much getting into YMDC territory though so won't be saying more on this in here!
Even with the FAQ, I still think it works. The new FAQ is clear that the independent character doesn't benefit from the formation benefits (so he would not gain infiltrate, for example. Luckily he mega detachment provides that anyway so it doesn't cause a deployment issue).
However, it's the squad that is benefitting from the inclusion of the character. He isn't getting any special rule for being in the squad. It's a subtle distinction, but as far as I can tell, the former is not forbidden and the latter is not what is happening here. So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.
luke1705 wrote: Even with the FAQ, I still think it works. The new FAQ is clear that the independent character doesn't benefit from the formation benefits (so he would not gain infiltrate, for example. Luckily he mega detachment provides that anyway so it doesn't cause a deployment issue).
However, it's the squad that is benefitting from the inclusion of the character. He isn't getting any special rule for being in the squad. It's a subtle distinction, but as far as I can tell, the former is not forbidden and the latter is not what is happening here. So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.
I understand your point of view. But, rolls 3 dices isnt a benefit from the primus?
Units win a benefit thanks to the primus yes. But the primus wins a benefit too, thanks to be part of the formation. Two thing are necessary: a primus (anyone) and be part of the formation.
The faq said that independent characters dont win benefits for join formations. And rolls more dices is a benefit.
As you said, you can join any character in a unit, and win the 2/3 rolls from the formation, because the benefit is from the squad.
Im really interesting in clarify this, if im wrong, 3 units from subteranean upsring with 3 broodcoven...
luke1705 wrote: So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.
The Primus (and Magos and Patriarch) all do have infiltrate base.
luke1705 wrote: So I think it still works, as long as you're taking a cult insurrection detachment. Otherwise he doesn't have infiltrate and can't deploy with the squad because they have infiltrate.
The Primus (and Magos and Patriarch) all do have infiltrate base.
I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.
I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.
I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.
I'll start a thread in YMDC but I don't see it that way. The unit does all of those things and checks only if the primus is in the unit. The primus ceases to exist as an individual entity once he joins the unit. The unit gains all of the benefits and the unit is in the formation. Might be that GW didn't intend it to be that way, but reading Rules As Written is hard enough sometimes. Rules As Intended is utterly impossible to decipher.
That's pretty similar to my list. I drop the third acolyte squad in the subterranean formation to give me a second maxed out genestealer squad led by a patriarch (from the brood cycle). I use a CADHQ slot for that. So I also sacrifice a third primus in my subterranean formation but the third squad still gets 2 rolls. It also allows me to max out the other 2 squads with a banner, a chain saw and 20 guys. Sadly, I don't have points for the magus though.
It's probably better to not have the second squad of genestealers, although the 5++ is really nice, and stealth is great too. The down side is they have no Cult Ambush mitigation, so if I roll poorly they're just a giant area denial blob. Could be worse I suppose.
Also, if you count the turn 1 and turn 2 rolls, it's substantially better than 50% chance for a primus-led blob squads.
I am pretty enthused about the prospect of larger units. Hidden saws are awesome, and with the ability to shuffle on and off the table to get into position, the only targeting issues you create for yourself are due to the points costs of the units themselves. Assuming I can get enough games away from my Tau, I may try extreme MSU and a mix of MSU and bigger hard-hitting units to see which I like better. I'm guessing the former.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I dont think it works with outside primuses because the formation grants the unit inside of it the 3d6 ambush if joined by a Primus. The unit has permission to roll 3d6 for ambush because it is joined by A primus. However the primus in question does not receive permissions to roll 3d6 ambush because he is not part of the formation. GW has been specific in saying formation rules do not carry over to outside IC. So in this event I would say the Primus does grant the unit in the formation the ability to roll 3d6, but he himself does NOT have permission to do that thus they would be forced to roll 1 dice.
I am not even sold on a RAI argument because the decurion itself limits you to 1 primus for fluff reasons.
I'll start a thread in YMDC but I don't see it that way. The unit does all of those things and checks only if the primus is in the unit. The primus ceases to exist as an individual entity once he joins the unit. The unit gains all of the benefits and the unit is in the formation. Might be that GW didn't intend it to be that way, but reading Rules As Written is hard enough sometimes. Rules As Intended is utterly impossible to decipher.
The problem is that the Primus Is a independent entity even when he joins a squad. Formation rules are not shared between units from different formations or detachments. The units in the uprising get to roll 2d6 or 3d6 because they are granted those rules by their formation. A Primus who joins that unit from an outside detachment (such as a CAD) does not have those special rules confered by the uprising formation. The Primus does not have permission to roll more than 1d6 thus the unit cannot roll more than 1d6 because a part of the unit cannot perform that action.
My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).
Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.
The problem is that the Primus Is a independent entity even when he joins a squad.
That is not how independent characters work. Quite the opposite, actually. But this is probably best left for YMDC instead of tactics threads.
He joins the unit not the formation. Special rules can cross over, but not formation rules. What I mean by an IC being an independent entity is that he does not join that unit for everything. He does not become that unit or inherit all of their rules. He is a unit within the unit. For most game purposes he is the same unit, but not for things like formation rules which is the topic at hand. Sorry if I am not making what I mean very clear. I was never very good at that. ^^;;
Traceoftoxin wrote: My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).
Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.
Eggs in one basket...sort of. In any other army, yes, but the list I posted above still has 14 units. That's quite a lot of flexibility. The Acolyte units are 180pts (255 with the Primus), and while that's not super cheap, it isn't exactly breaking the bank, either. You'd probably be better off trading an Acolyte unit or two for multiple 5-man units, but I don't see the big units being outrageously costly.
Traceoftoxin wrote: My problem with large units is you're very much putting all your eggs in one basket. If you fail to get a 6, then that unit is underperforming. Also, if you have 4x5 instead of 1x20, you have more ability to cover far parts of the board, more likely to get a unit that gets a 6, no loss of charge bonus for charging multiple units (If you charge 1 for 1).
Maybe run a single large squad with the primus, and then the rest just MSU so you can get the benefits of both.
Eggs in one basket...sort of. In any other army, yes, but the list I posted above still has 14 units. That's quite a lot of flexibility. The Acolyte units are 180pts (255 with the Primus), and while that's not super cheap, it isn't exactly breaking the bank, either. You'd probably be better off trading an Acolyte unit or two for multiple 5-man units, but I don't see the big units being outrageously costly.
That's true. Being so cheap, even a big block isn't really super expensive.
N.I.B. wrote: It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.
I've definitely spent some brain power on what to do with the Neophyte units in my Brood Cycle. I don't want to treat them as a 'tax', and I'd like to make them more useful than a designated objective sitter. But the heavy weapons options don't seem like enough to make them a good sit and shoot unit, especially considering they won't be shooting any turn that they're ambushing. And for those turns you roll the '6', it's such a waste to just deploy them out of the way. So is it maybe better to look at them as opportunity assaulters?
If you're deploying units near one another for mutual support -- and I think 'bubble' management is key -- you have a chance of getting some combination of furious change, hatred, +1WS and fearless on those charging Neophytes (and maybe another +1WS if you take an icon), plus the possibility of psychic support (mass hypnosis, might from beyond, etc.). With a pick or maul on the leader, they still aren't exactly fearsome in assaults, but there's stuff in the game they could take care of, including vehicles.
I think I'm going to give an 7 shotgun/2 flamer/icon/power pick build a try in an upcoming game.
N.I.B. wrote: It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.
I've definitely spent some brain power on what to do with the Neophyte units in my Brood Cycle. I don't want to treat them as a 'tax', and I'd like to make them more useful than a designated objective sitter. But the heavy weapons options don't seem like enough to make them a good sit and shoot unit, especially considering they won't be shooting any turn that they're ambushing. And for those turns you roll the '6', it's such a waste to just deploy them out of the way. So is it maybe better to look at them as opportunity assaulters?
If you're deploying units near one another for mutual support -- and I think 'bubble' management is key -- you have a chance of getting some combination of furious change, hatred, +1WS and fearless on those charging Neophytes (and maybe another +1WS if you take an icon), plus the possibility of psychic support (mass hypnosis, might from beyond, etc.). With a pick or maul on the leader, they still aren't exactly fearsome in assaults, but there's stuff in the game they could take care of, including vehicles.
I think I'm going to give an 7 shotgun/2 flamer/icon/power pick build a try in an upcoming game.
I feel like Neophyte shooting is underrated. 2 mining lasers and 2 grenade launchers is a good amount of firepower for 90 points. Seismic cannons can also make good use of Cult Ambush since you can readily deploy within 12" of your chosen target. It kind of sucks to "waste" an ambush 6 on deploying wherever rather than assaulting, but everything else in the army is just plain better at combat and by quite some margin. I'd definitely rather plunk my Neophytes down on a objective or have them blast away at close range than deliberately throw the into the fray.
I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.
Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.
gorgon wrote: I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.
Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.
My friends and I have had a little discussion on Heavy weapons being deployed using the Ambush special rule. Heavy weapons shoot at normal BS unless they have moved in the moving phase. However, on a 3+ the wording on Ambush is "Set up" the unit. Obviously this is a RAW discussion but 'setting up' and moving is completely different in reference to the rules. On a 1 or a 2, they deploy as normal/outflank - which RAW count as moving.
As for RAI or fluffy, the GSC come out of the shadows (out of reserves). Who knows how long they have been there or when they got there. The heavy weapons never necessarily moved - they appeared (they set up).
TLR; A result of 3+ on the Ambush chart allows Heavy weapons from Neophytes to shoot at Full BS (in my opinion).
They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them
Fair enough. In that case, you're probably best leaving the leader at home. I don't think 25pts is worth an okay chance to damage vehicles and some extra oomph against marines when the alternative is 5 more guys. With 2 flamers and some shotguns, you should have yourself a handy little inexpensive assault unit. As you said, make sure you keep them in range of all the perk bubbles you can. 5 pts for a WS5, S4 model with rerolls isn't trivial, by any means!
Neophyte shooting isn't too impressive. Yesterday, got that '5' on CA, deployed 18 Neophytes inlcuding 1 mining laser and 2 grenade launchers within rapid fire range of 3 Scatbikes in the open. After saves, zero wounds. I had to use RttS to get the heck out of there, so it was only one round of shooting before turn 1 and below average dice, but still, not a confidence builder.
N.I.B. wrote: It's such a bummer when you roll the '6' on your 10 man Neophyte units.
But when in my second game I rolled it on my First Curse, oh boy... I went second, but a ruin in my opponent's deployment zone + Shroud and threat overload saw them through the heat, and they cleared out the enemy defense lines.
Broodmind spell #1 helps too (run and charge).
This is why you should take a power maul on your leader. A leader charging a rear armor 10 tank has a decent shot at causing damage before it gets to move or shoot.
10+15pts to get S5 on a dude with WS3? Pass.
I'm leaning towards getting a few more bodies and use my two Neophyte units as pure bodyguard units for Magus and Iconward.
I consider Neophytes are more for light anti-tank with grenades launchers and an autocannon to open enemy transports so the squishy guys inside can be assaulted by the rest of the army.
Also if you summon them, I believe they are the best of the wc2 options as you can give them all the upgrades for free.
They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them
Fair enough. In that case, you're probably best leaving the leader at home. I don't think 25pts is worth an okay chance to damage vehicles and some extra oomph against marines when the alternative is 5 more guys. With 2 flamers and some shotguns, you should have yourself a handy little inexpensive assault unit. As you said, make sure you keep them in range of all the perk bubbles you can. 5 pts for a WS5, S4 model with rerolls isn't trivial, by any means!
You're probably right about the leader. It makes much more sense to go bigger with the unit in that case.
RAW if "Set Up" via Cult Ambush works the same as "Set Up" via deployment or Infiltrate in the rules, the neophyte units may fire their weapons on a 3+. It isn't a concrete ruling, but there is precedent for it in the BRB.
I believe the argument that Saythings was advancing was regarding coming out of reserves, not deployment. Results 3 to 6 don't specifically mention the unit as having 'moved.'
Having said that, I doubt the designers intended units to be able to blaze away with heavies when they enter from reserves. Cult Ambush is already kind of bonkers at times.
I think the_scotsman, gorgon, and myself are all saying the same thing.
The wording "Set-up" has precedent in the BRB to allow the Neophytes to shoot their Heavy weapons at BS3 at a 3 or higher on the CS special rule.
I don't see how a special rule that allows assaulting out of reserve would be a far stretch to allow 2 Heavy weapons to be shot at full BS. This is definitely a RAW/RAI debate. But I, as well as my gaming group, play RAW unless FAQ'd by GW or the TO at an event we attend.
I only posted it to see what the community might have to say about it. Hell, there might even be people that play how I do (RAW) and just overlooked the "set up" wording. In short - I wanted to open a few eyes.
terry wrote:You could also use neophytes as anti air, be getting a missile launcher team with the anti air missile
You could - thing is, 4 flakk teams is as expensive as a quadgun on an aegis and is the same number of shots. Only with a quadgun, you have twin-linked and are able to stick a BS4 magos on it. So better for anti-air imo!
NIB wrote:10+15pts to get S5 on a dude with WS3? Pass.
I'm leaning towards getting a few more bodies and use my two Neophyte units as pure bodyguard units for Magus and Iconward.
I agree, and that's why my neophyte leader is magged so I can swap it out for a normal neophyte unless I summon a unit. People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray! You can perfectly well just use it to position them wherever you want. I'm leaning towards just bulking up the size of the neophyte units a bit - the heavy mining weapons are good but pricey? I might just stick in an autocannon per or a pair of special weapons or something, just to keep em cheap.
People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray!
I agree completely, but I think gorgon was mainly trying to figure out how to have a Neophyte unit that was useful for both assault and (close-range) shooting, in case you did get that 6. It's a worthy cause, considering that you have to have a couple units of them if you're running a Cultcurion.
I'm still fairly sold on Neophytes being shooty units. A 6 on the ambush roll will basically just mean they get to roadblock a deathstar or something while they blast away. Mining lasers and seismic cannons are both solid options, in my opinion, even though they can get pricy. When you have a bajillion of them, BS3 doesn't matter nearly as much.
People in this thread seem to be falling for sunk cost fallacy quite a lot - just because you roll a 6 for a neophyte unit doesn't mean you need to charge headlong into the fray!
I agree completely, but I think gorgon was mainly trying to figure out how to have a Neophyte unit that was useful for both assault and (close-range) shooting, in case you did get that 6. It's a worthy cause, considering that you have to have a couple units of them if you're running a Cultcurion.
I'm still fairly sold on Neophytes being shooty units. A 6 on the ambush roll will basically just mean they get to roadblock a deathstar or something while they blast away. Mining lasers and seismic cannons are both solid options, in my opinion, even though they can get pricy. When you have a bajillion of them, BS3 doesn't matter nearly as much.
Oh yeah that does make sense - I'm glad the discussion prompted me to think about it tbh. I think just using them as an overwatch sink if you roll the 6 is perfectly fine - your other units are by far more valuable and are just as squishy to overwatch shooting. No need for the leader or icon.
In general they are clearly shooty though. I really like seismic cannons, and assuming you interpret the rule as discussed above, a squad of 2 and 2 nade launchers can really lay on the hurt after ambushing. But that's 100 points, and I feel that just 2 special weapons, an autocannon team, or maybe evn heavy stubbers (though they're anti-infantry and we don't exactly need that) give them some solid firepower whilst being substantially cheaper.
Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.
gorgon wrote: Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.
While understandable, the majority of the benefits from the acolyte squads are getting 4 str 5 attacks per model that can be at WS 5, re-rolling to hits and rending. Not to mention the +1 str and rage power if for some ungodly reason that's not good enough.
Contrast this with the neophytes. Less attacks, str 4, ws 4 most likely...you're losing 15 percent of your hits and then an additional 17 percent of your wounds and the squad puts out 50 % less attacks in the first place, though they do have twice as many models. So per squad (5 man acolyte vs 10 man neophyte) on average, vs MEQ:
Acolytes attack 20 times, hitting 17.7 times with hatred. With strength 5 on the charge, they wound 11.8 times, meaning 2 rended marines and 3 failed armor saves. On average.
Neophytes shoot their shotguns, hitting 10 times and wounding 5, causing 1.5 marines to die. They charge in with 20 attacks that hit 15 times, wounding 7.5 times, causing 2.5 failed saves. So 10 more points invested in the squad gets you 1 more alive marine. That was kind of surprising TBH. I guess they're not that much worse than acolytes. The squad does cost 10 more points, so I could dock 1/5 of their damage output, putting it closer to 3.2 dead marines vs 5 from the acolytes.
I think the best way to run the compulsive neophyte squads is to keep them in the back lines grabbing objectives, hopping in and out of ongoing reserves so that you always have squads that can contest or claim objectives. Therefore, I'm not going to upgrade them. Quantity over quality in my cult.
gorgon wrote: I had some good luck with Neophyte shooting. But it was mostly about massed autoguns at 12" rather than the heavies, since those ceased being an option everytime I moved or cycled them. And other than turn 1, the heavies never really have the chance to benefit from a 5 result anyway. Meanwhile all those potential assault buffs go to waste as the unit just stands there. Which got me thinking about running shotguns and flamers, giving me similar firepower in many instances, but with shoot and assault options when I get the 6.
Context is important, of course. In my case I'm running Brood Cycle and only 2 Neophyte units, and everything else in my army that isn't a vehicle wants to assault and cycle. They're fine starring the role of chaos cultists and sitting on a spot. But I'd like to see if I can squeeze more utility out of them.
An important thing to consider with 6 result neophytes Ive found is chaff for your assault units, the 3" near guaranteed charge means that they are an EXCELLENT unit to charge into say a shooty unit, or a unit with flamers to take overwatch, as even with a large amount of casualties, there is a high likelyhood they will still reach b2b and tie up the unit so your real assaulters can come in unhindered. I got lucky one game with a 6 on a 10 man neophyte unit with shotguns, and they managed to absorb 2 riptides overwatch and still reach B2B of both, allowing my hybrids to go in unhindered and whipe them off the board turn 1
gorgon wrote: Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.
While understandable, the majority of the benefits from the acolyte squads are getting 4 str 5 attacks per model that can be at WS 5, re-rolling to hits and rending. Not to mention the +1 str and rage power if for some ungodly reason that's not good enough.
I think the best way to run the compulsive neophyte squads is to keep them in the back lines grabbing objectives, hopping in and out of ongoing reserves so that you always have squads that can contest or claim objectives. Therefore, I'm not going to upgrade them. Quantity over quality in my cult.
How are you getting 5 attacks per model on the Acolytes? I can a only se you getting 4 max on the chargeon a bare bones 5 man squad... % only with the psycic power with rage or in a unit with the iconwrad. would you get 5.
I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:
I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?
What do you guys think are the biggest "bang for your buck" unit options for when you roll Telepathic Summons? Since we get all the free gear we want, we don't need to worry about points efficiency and such. Obiously for Acolytes, Neophytes & Metamorphs it boils down to which options are best for your opposition.
I'm thinking having options depending on your opponent is a good idea. Things like 10/20 Neophytes with Grenade Launchers & Mining Lasers or Seismic Cannons if you need to drop a lot of vehicles, or 10/20 Neophytes with Flamers and Heavy Stubbers if you are facing hordes like Orks or Gaunt spam. Leaders would always carry full loadouts of bolt/web pistol and power maul/pick. And of course and Icon.
Acolytes would go 5/10 with Rock Saws, Rock Cutters or Demo Charges depending on whether you are facing vehicles (Saws), multi-wound models/monstrous creatures (Cutters) or hordes (Demo Charges). I really don't see much point in taking Rock Drills. Hand Flamers all around might not be a bad idea - lower range, but much higher threat potential. Leaders take Lash Whip & Bonesword, unless you are already higher Initiative than the majority of your foes, in which case the Hand Flamer is a good choice instead of the Lash Whip. Icon is a must of course.
Metamorphs I would go with either all whips or all claws depending on whether I think I need the Initiative or Strength bonus, and again would consider Hand Flamers, and the Leader should always take the Bone Sword. And why wouldn't you add an Icon?
Then we get to the other options. I think 8 Purestrains is less flexible than the Acolyte, Neophyte and Metamorph options, but when you need something Rended to death in short order, 8 of these buggers can lay out a LOT of hurt, while being a bit more resilient at the same time (due to higher T and 5++ save.) Obviously, since we don't have to pay for the upgrades, they should ALL have Scything Talons.
I believe the Aberrants, unfortunately, are completely overshadowed by the other WC 3 options, unless you really want some high Strength Attacks. I think the mass of Rending tends to outweigh this though, especially the S6 Metamorph Claws that can be boosted to S7 if you get Furious Charge on them by one of the many possible means.
Morris782 wrote: I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:
I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?
They confer infiltrate to their dedicated transports yes, but the goliaths must have the cult ambush or return to the shadows rules to utilize them.
Morris782 wrote: I have a question on dedicated transports and the Brood Cycle:
I believe if I read this right my Acolytes confer infiltrate to my Goliath, which then allows me to Cult Ambush while embarked correct?
If I bring Goliaths for my Acolytes, do they get the Familial Pride bonus after disembarking?
Also can my Goliaths return to the shadows after dropping off units? Or is this just wishful thinking?
Goliaths (and other transports) don't have the Cult Ambush or Return to the Shadows special rules, and those rules are not conferred to them by their transported units nor by the Infiltrate rule. In addition, units embarked on a Transport are expressly disallowed from using the Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows special rules. Vehicles basically don't get to have any of the fun. (Except Sentinels in a Neophyte Cavalcade, who can Cult Ambush, but not Return to the Shadows.)
Goliaths (and other transports) don't have the Cult Ambush or Return to the Shadows special rules, and those rules are not conferred to them by their transported units nor by the Infiltrate rule. In addition, units embarked on a Transport are expressly disallowed from using the Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows special rules. Vehicles basically don't get to have any of the fun. (Except Sentinels in a Neophyte Cavalcade, who can Cult Ambush, but not Return to the Shadows.)
Doesn't that conflict with "Time to rise up" in the uprising formation? If I am required to set up using cult ambush, but my dedicated transports can't cult ambush, does 40k space time tear in half?
What do you guys think are the biggest "bang for your buck" unit options for when you roll Telepathic Summons?
Acolytes, hands down. With the amount of excellent (and otherwise very expensive) upgrades they can get, there's just no passing them up.
Edit: Actually, I thought you got fewer Metamorphs when you summoned. I can certainly see a use for them, such as trying to bring down something with I5-7 that may otherwise mulch your fragile Acolytes, but man, getting a bunch of free hidden rock saws is really hard to say no to.
Also gotta say, I'm really not feeling the use of shotguns on Neophytes. Even in an all-assault list when they're essentially a tax unit, I still feel like I'd take autoguns. Purely stats-wise, autoguns are entirely superior - exactly the same inside 12" and obviously better outside since they can actually shoot! The downside is that you can't shoot them if you want to charge - but unless you roll a 6 and want them to opportunistically soak some overwatch (roll for them last), I think I would be deploying them at the back to protect magi and hold objectives and such. And the thing is, they have autopistols, so you can still shoot if they charge, just half the shots - which is not necessarily a bad thing as you don't want to be shooting the foe out of charge range, especially as we don't have much fleet.
What do you guys think are the biggest "bang for your buck" unit options for when you roll Telepathic Summons?
Acolytes, hands down. With the amount of excellent (and otherwise very expensive) upgrades they can get, there's just no passing them up.
I think Neophytes are a very good shout too, probably the best at wc2. You can get 10, 2 seismic, 2 webbers, an icon, and a leader with power weapon and web pistol - 150pts worth of stuff. Acolytes can admittedly take slightly more points wise, but since you only get a single roll on the ambush table, there's a high chance that summoned units will only be coming on reasonably far away from the enemy, so having solid shooting and more bodies is going to be pretty nice. I guess if you summon melee units early they have a better chance of being able to charge and deal their damage, but definitely later game neophytes I see as the best option.
On a TCFB/6 result it's very unlikely that you're shooting yourself out of charge range, though. And Neophytes can be more than overwatch soakers...they can get work down in close combat if you manage your buffs well. Just rolling with the autopistols is cool, but I'm really not feeling the heavy weapons to this point. They haven't got much done for me, and for the price of two seismic cannons you can have 5 more Acolytes who'll give you a better shot of killing hard targets.
And I have to say that I'm not that concerned about nominating deck chair units with this army. They're all potential deck chairs, really.
Regarding summoning, there is no correct answer IMO other than "it depends." That power allows you to create a unit customized for your specific game needs at that time. That's where its real juice lies.
Neophyte Cavalcade (minus Scout Sentinels) start in regular deployment. Russes get into good firing position while Chimeras (which I believe cannot Cult Ambush) head to secure objectives. These Neophytes will be decked with just Flamers.
Subterranean Uprising (1 Primus, 2 X 8 units of Acolytes, 1 X 5 or 10 Metamorphs) and 1 unit of Purestrains will lead the Assault if they get good roles but otherwise try and keep them out of initial LOS. I'd also like to include the Dotting Throng, supported by the Magnus I'd want these to provide support. To be the middlemen, supporting the which ever other formation is doing worse. So they will have Seismic Cannons or should they have the Mining Laser? I would also like to stick the Patriarch in with the Genestealers apart of the assault.
Should I give all of the Neophytes the Cult Icon or no one? For the Sentinels Flamer of Autocannon or Missile Launcher?
gorgon wrote: Yeah, it's not really a quest on my part to find what's 'optimal', if that's even a destination that can be found. I'm not planning on attending any big tournaments these days. I've just been so-so about my Neophyte shooting, and it doesn't feel 'right' in the context of the rest of my otherwise aggressive army to have to decide between shooting OR assaulting when I could do some of both and benefit from some of the tasty assault buff bubbles.
While understandable, the majority of the benefits from the acolyte squads are getting 4 str 5 attacks per model that can be at WS 5, re-rolling to hits and rending. Not to mention the +1 str and rage power if for some ungodly reason that's not good enough.
I think the best way to run the compulsive neophyte squads is to keep them in the back lines grabbing objectives, hopping in and out of ongoing reserves so that you always have squads that can contest or claim objectives. Therefore, I'm not going to upgrade them. Quantity over quality in my cult.
How are you getting 5 attacks per model on the Acolytes? I can a only se you getting 4 max on the chargeon a bare bones 5 man squad... % only with the psycic power with rage or in a unit with the iconwrad. would you get 5.
You're not. You're getting 4 attacks at strength 5. Sorry if that was unclear.
BTW had another game at 1850 last night. Same list as last week (min brood cycle except for 20 gene stealers, first curse, maxed out subterranean uprising and a side CAD with an extra primus and patriarch)
Was playing a tyranid player with 2 hive tyrants and 2 hive crones, so I was pretty worried about all the "delete-my-models" templates. Thankfully the tyrants didn't have the eGrubs upgrade so they would only be throwing out a paltry 10 wounds per turn or so. The tervigon did have the flamer though, and with no AA (or even really guns to speak of) I knew that I wouldn't be able to do anything about his flyers, all of which would be able to roast/pile wounds on my guys.
First turn I rolled pretty poorly. No 6 for the warlord, psychic powers weren't great and only a solitary six on one of the 20 man acolyte squads from the uprising. I did manage to seize the initiative, so that 20 man squad managed a 3 unit multi-charge, killing a tervigon, 27 gants and doing all but one wound to a hive crone. This was actually ideal since they stayed locked in combat. Turn 2 saw both of my large genestealer squads charging (I got the run and charge power on both of my patriarchs) as well as 2 smaller squads that had faded back into the shadows on turn 1 (these rolled 6's to do so).
At that point (the end of turn 2) he had 6 models left on the board. To be fair, it was 2 hive tyrants, 2 mawlocs, a hive crone and a malanthrope, but I had all of the board control and would have wiped out the malanthrope and 2 mawlocs on the top of three. We called it at the bottom of two, although afterwards we discussed how my complete inability to do anything to his flyers might have meant a potential victory on a number of eternal war missions for him, especially since he had second turn. But we were just doing a normal maelstrom mission so it was moot at that point.
The board control throughout was dominating. I haven't played a list with a true deathstar yet (as I've only played 3 games so far) but it seems like you really need something that's pretty much unkillable through volume of wounds and has a good invulnerable save to stop these larger squads. They've mulched imperial knights and wraith knights alike (sword and board even) without batting an eyelash. I really think that this army has the potential to be a meta-shaker, especially since the constant cycling of units means that although they are a horde army, they play a lot faster. And truth be told, it seems like there are a number of matchups that just won't be prepared for the cult and will just get rolled, resulting in the potential to have fast enough games even at the tournament level.
And truth be told, it seems like there are a number of matchups that just won't be prepared for the cult and will just get rolled
That definitely seems to be the case. This edition has thus far heavily favored mobile shooty armies, but with a reasonably reliable method to instantly get deadly troops in combat, all the armies designed to keep foes at arms length have to do a heavy rethink of tactics, at the very least. I think you'll see very conservative deployment strategies agains GSC lists, and the entire meta may begin to favor including a significant amount of bubble wrap for key units. I know my Tau are going to struggle mightily against these massive MSU lists. Yeah, you can probably intercept away the units that get an ambush 6 during the game, but that doesn't help much turn 1 when your Stormsurge is buried in Acolytes. MSU has alway been a bit of a Tau weakness, but facing 15-20 units in immediate threat range is going to be a serious challenge. Eldar, same concept. Jetbikes may be ludicrously mobile, but that doesn't help if they get assaulted before they get a chance to move. I definitely see GSC becoming a strong tournament presence. They have great tools to deal with every chart-topping army out there, at the moment.
And truth be told, it seems like there are a number of matchups that just won't be prepared for the cult and will just get rolled
That definitely seems to be the case. This edition has thus far heavily favored mobile shooty armies, but with a reasonably reliable method to instantly get deadly troops in combat, all the armies designed to keep foes at arms length have to do a heavy rethink of tactics, at the very least. I think you'll see very conservative deployment strategies agains GSC lists, and the entire meta may begin to favor including a significant amount of bubble wrap for key units. I know my Tau are going to struggle mightily against these massive MSU lists. Yeah, you can probably intercept away the units that get an ambush 6 during the game, but that doesn't help much turn 1 when your Stormsurge is buried in Acolytes. MSU has alway been a bit of a Tau weakness, but facing 15-20 units in immediate threat range is going to be a serious challenge. Eldar, same concept. Jetbikes may be ludicrously mobile, but that doesn't help if they get assaulted before they get a chance to move. I definitely see GSC becoming a strong tournament presence. They have great tools to deal with every chart-topping army out there, at the moment.
I do doubt that we'll see them at top tables though. An army that has an abundance of ignores cover would give them fits, and going first is a huge deal since you can only assault with units that get 6's on turn 1. Even in eternal war, I have to believe that I would try to go first every time and just table the opponent, or use area denial to try and stop them from grabbing objectives. First turn is just too good with this army.
It's almost worth adding Coteaz in an inq allied just for the reroll for first turn/make opponent reroll steal attempt.
Edit: for only 365pts you can add:
Allied Guard
Command squad(bare bones)
Master of the fleet(for -1 to opponant's reserves...-2 if you have the super formation for your GSC)
Veteran Sq Grenaders, 3 plasma guns,chimera
Allied Inq Coteaz(add to veterans for some extra punch or to com sq to keep safe in a corner somewhere.)
Looking through the "new" IG formations, the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company looks like it's tailor-made for GSC. You get your Company Command and have some wicked tools to dissuade castling without any significant tax, as far as I can tell. That could be a real winner.
Cataphract wrote: What are the prime units from Guard Allies that you would want to take? I'm abit rusty on the rules but for allies does it have to be CAD?
I like the cheap Veteran Squads in Chimeras with lots of special weapons, and the big guns like Basilisks, Wyverns, etc. Purely for "mustache-twiling villain" flavor, I love the idea of a Deathstrike.
Allies can be any formation or detachment available to that faction - you just have to be aware of the way different levels of Allies interact in your army. (i.e. Battle Brothers, Allies of Convenience, Desperate Allies and Come the Apocalypse). The only restriction placed on what you can or can't take is that the specific "Allied Detachment" cannot be the same faction as whichever formation or detachment you chose as your "Primary Detachment" - i.e. the one that includes your Warlord.
Oh yeah...can't remember if I said it here or in the N&R thread, but I have ideas for modeling up a Deathstrike like the nuke in Beneath the Planet of the Apes.
Spoiler:
The Manticore is probably the more reliable choice in the EWAC formation, but the Deathstrike is more fun.
Just had my second test game at 1500 with my Cult, and it was far more encouraging than my first (Against Ultramarine Gladius)
I played against a list that was a small scatpack plus some Harlequins. He had:
-3 squads of 3 scatterbikes
-1 D-cannon WK
-Farseer with SS of Anlathan and spear on bike
-Autarch with Shard of Anaris and banshee mask on Bike
-Crimson Hunter
Harlequin Cegorach's Jest
-1 Troupe with Embraces in Starweaver
-1 special death masque BS5 Voidweaver
-4 Skyweavers with Glaives and Shurikens joined to form a bikestar with the other IC's.
I had:
GSC insurrection
Leaders of the Cult (Patriarch ML2, Primus, Magus ML2)
Brood Cycle
-Neophytes with shotguns, flamer, icon, and leader with pick
-Neophytes 16X with GLs and Seismic Cannons.
-3x 5 man acolytes
-Metamorphs with claws and hand flamers
-Goliath Rockgrinder with Heavy Seismic (Brought Brood cycle specifically to test this model)
-Iconward
-10X purestrains
Neophyte Cavalcade
-2x squads with 2 flamers in chimeras
-Armored Sent with ML -Leman Russ Exterminator with MMs and Lascannon
I rolled the Mind Control power (wooo) and the smexy six result on the warlord table for my Patriarch. I stuck him with the Metamorphs. Opponent won turn 1, chose to go first.
Turn 1 I got 6 on Purestrains and shotgun neophytes, and picked it with the metamorphs. Got 1 with a squad of acolytes, and 4 on all other squads. Outflanked the Russ to avoid the D turn 1 and deployed everything else behind ruins with night fight.
His firepower managed to remove 3 metamorphs and put 1 wound on the patriarch (turbo boosted 1 scat squad to get away from shotgun neophytes), and an eldritch storm took out three purestrains. Eldar Jetbike moves made sure the only thing I could feasibly charge was the Harlequin voidweaver, or (with a long charge) the bikestar with fortune up. Almost everything he had was castled behind the knight and bikestar.
On my turn, practically everything left via return to shadows. All dead metamorphs and genestealers came back. The shotgun neophytes stuck around with the iconward's squad, and with the furious charge buff they smacked the voidweaver to death and seized the building it was in.The Chimeras stunned the Starweaver, helpfully keeping it in the backfield for his following turn.
My opponent stayed fairly castled, only moving the wraithknight to get a clear shot at one of the chimeras. The Crimson Hunter came in, and both chimeras and the sentinel died.
On my turn, I brought in 5 acolytes and the metamorphs with 6 results, and as I already had the shotgun neophytes and iconward acolytes in range, I decided to pile in on the wraithknight and try to take it out. Shooting took out the Crimson Hunter (gogo gadget twin-linked autocannons) and sent two scatterbike squads fleeing with a single model left. Acolytes, metamorphs, and neophytes charged the wraithknight with Might from Beyond on the metamorphs and everyone within the Hatred bubble from the Primus. Even with Hatred and S8, the Metamorphs, acolytes and patriarch bring the knight down to only 1 wound left...but luckily we brought along Master Sergeant MVPickaxe, who took the monster down just as it was stomping to try and take out the patriarch (failed, but took a wound off him and killed a metamorph and an acolyte.) I scored Domination to put me comfortably ahead.
The following turn, the Eldar killed the patriarch and entourage, and sent the shooty squad of neophytes running, but lost the Harlequins in assault/overwatch. My opponent conceded with the score at 9-4.
So, suspicions confirmed: GSC are really good against mobile shooty opponents like Tau and Eldar, not really good against MSU obsec spam.
Had my first game with the cult the other day. Facing an eldar wraith army. 2 Wraithknights, 2 wraithlords, a wraithseer, and 3 units of wraith guard. Plus eldrad and some rangers.
My magus shows up on turn 2, and mental onslaughts eldrad to make him waste most of his psychic dice denying it (an allied hive tyrant was nearby dropping his LD, so he couldn't afford to let it go). Then the magus was free to mind control one wraithknight, and shoot the other wraithknight with it. Rolling a 6 on the D table.
The magus and his unit were promptly obliterated by just about every remaining unit in the eldar army. So worth it though.
Arson Fire wrote: Had my first game with the cult the other day. Facing an eldar wraith army. 2 Wraithknights, 2 wraithlords, a wraithseer, and 3 units of wraith guard. Plus eldrad and some rangers.
My magus shows up on turn 2, and mental onslaughts eldrad to make him waste most of his psychic dice denying it (an allied hive tyrant was nearby dropping his LD, so he couldn't afford to let it go).
Then the magus was free to mind control one wraithknight, and shoot the other wraithknight with it. Rolling a 6 on the D table.
The magus and his unit were promptly obliterated by just about every remaining unit in the eldar army. So worth it though.
First thought: That's what he gets for running 2 WKs.
I'll have to check whether the rule reads "Must deploy via cult ambush." If it does, in that case, they must roll on the CA table for deployment and cannot deploy normally, infiltrate normally, or start in reserve.
Nope. Return to the Shadows says that it can't be used on a turn where the unit arrived from reserves.
I suppose that does leave open doing it after deployment on turn 1...
Arson Fire wrote: Nope. Return to the Shadows says that it can't be used on a turn where the unit arrived from reserves.
I suppose that does leave open doing it after deployment on turn 1...
Is this a real thing? Did I miss the Turn1 return?! D:
Arson Fire wrote: Nope. Return to the Shadows says that it can't be used on a turn where the unit arrived from reserves.
I suppose that does leave open doing it after deployment on turn 1...
Is this a real thing? Did I miss the Turn1 return?! D:
Yeah, I used the heck out of that in my last game.
Got second turn, took a few casualties through night fight/shrouding, and said "cya nerds we're comin back turn 2" and basically picked up 80% of my army.
spore field (3 big bombs + 3x3 small bombs)
spore field (3 big bombs + 3x3 small bombs)
Still sum points left..
I guess I need a big Acolytes unit for the patriarch + icon to protect them. Maybe a magus for the 3x D6 cult ambush with Subterranian uprising?
Did sum testing and it really hurts when tau seizes your first turn. I really like the option to remove the whole army except the bombs. Next turn you bring a whole lot of units in their face...
Hey everyone, so my collection of GSC is slowly growing and my gaming scene likes playing fairly tough lists so I just though I might throw up a list here and ask for advice and discuss something.
On my first game I did what we do and punched my way through an IG army, turn 1 victory etc etc all glory to the cult. Second game however he bunkered hard, tons of flamers etc. now it wasn't my best game and I was an idiot and riding the high and playing my second game resulted in me being whiped before my first turn after he seized.
My response to this was to add a Leman Russ, which mileage wasn't great for the points. Then remembered the two battlecannon weapon batteries I had sitting around. I thought they might be a really good way to disuade bunkering and seize backfield objectives as well. This prevents one of the largest problems for this army and allows my cheap neophyte squads to act as suicidal bodies or mid field objective grabbers. They've been fairly useless so far just holding back fields.
The problem is, my scene plays 1000pts most of the time. We play it to force hard choices in lists and are also confined by space and time. At 1000 points in debating whether the vengeance weapon batteries are worth it (I think so) or more, is it worth taking both, or just one?
85 points gained from that would allow me to add another uprising Metamorph squad (god I love them), or a primus or something.
I realise that was a rambling mess but any advice you guys and gals can give me would be amazing. This army plays like nothing else and is a perfect translation of lore to tabletop and want to get very good at it!
Qwerty2jam wrote: Hey everyone, so my collection of GSC is slowly growing and my gaming scene likes playing fairly tough lists so I just though I might throw up a list here and ask for advice and discuss something.
On my first game I did what we do and punched my way through an IG army, turn 1 victory etc etc all glory to the cult. Second game however he bunkered hard, tons of flamers etc. now it wasn't my best game and I was an idiot and riding the high and playing my second game resulted in me being whiped before my first turn after he seized.
My response to this was to add a Leman Russ, which mileage wasn't great for the points. Then remembered the two battlecannon weapon batteries I had sitting around. I thought they might be a really good way to disuade bunkering and seize backfield objectives as well. This prevents one of the largest problems for this army and allows my cheap neophyte squads to act as suicidal bodies or mid field objective grabbers. They've been fairly useless so far just holding back fields.
The problem is, my scene plays 1000pts most of the time. We play it to force hard choices in lists and are also confined by space and time. At 1000 points in debating whether the vengeance weapon batteries are worth it (I think so) or more, is it worth taking both, or just one?
85 points gained from that would allow me to add another uprising Metamorph squad (god I love them), or a primus or something.
I realise that was a rambling mess but any advice you guys and gals can give me would be amazing. This army plays like nothing else and is a perfect translation of lore to tabletop and want to get very good at it!
I am not a fan of the brood cycle. All that "extra" infantry that only rolls 1 dice for cult ambush.
I would use the cavalcade instead. This gives me a cover ignoring russ and heavy bolter if you want to keep it cheap, 2 neophyte squads in chimera for some extra ranged punch (I disinbark and flamers then back to the shadows) 1-2 armored or scout sentinels heavy flamers are great for taking out bunkered troops also great if they survive to assault. All for under 500pts. It synergyzes great with the sub uprising. Go for a CAD to get 2 more magus and 2 min acolytes or neophytes to objective sit.
Can i make 2 cult insurrection detachament (2 decurions) and benefit with +2 to the reserves?
I don't see why not. The bonus is not unique. I don't know if guaranteed reserves on turn 2 (vs 2+ reserves) is that big of a deal, but -2 to your opponent's reserves roll would be pretty good.
I don't think it's a competitively viable option since the brood cycle and the cavalcade are both not that great and that would be like 800 points of your army if you took two...but it wouldn't be awful because of the aforementioned benefits. Not something I'd run but go to town.
Can i make 2 cult insurrection detachament (2 decurions) and benefit with +2 to the reserves?
I don't see why not. The bonus is not unique. I don't know if guaranteed reserves on turn 2 (vs 2+ reserves) is that big of a deal, but -2 to your opponent's reserves roll would be pretty good.
I don't think it's a competitively viable option since the brood cycle and the cavalcade are both not that great and that would be like 800 points of your army if you took two...but it wouldn't be awful because of the aforementioned benefits. Not something I'd run but go to town.
I do not believe the bonuses would stack as they are the same rule being applied twice. If you had two separate sources of -1 reserves then they stack, but when its the exact same rule from the exact same detachment it wont stack.
Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy. I will have my two Magus and a Patriarch trying to learn Summons, the other one learn biomancy and the inquisition learn divination. Make my opponent re-roll the seize or i can reroll because of coteaz. Have the Inquisition be my Distraction in the middle of the field and have all my vehicle outflank while the scout Cult Ambush. Everything else infiltrate and Cult Ambush but the two Hybrids in CAD. Could use some suggestion, been playing around the idea making my neo more usfull.
Total: 1955
Core Neophyte Cavalcade: 460
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double heavy flamer - 115
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double heavy flamer - 115
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit Leman Russ w/ Lascannon; Exterminator auto cannon; multi-melta - 160
Command The First Curse: 395
[Warlord]Patriarch ML2 - 115
Genestealers x20 - 280
2x Lord of the Cults
Magus ML2 w/ Crouchling - 85
Iconward w/ Icon of the cult - 95
Aux Subterranean Uprising: 500
Primus w/ Scourge and Void eye - 105
4x min units of Hybrids w/ cult icon - 50
3x min units of Meta 3 w/ claw, 2 w/ whip and cult icon - 65
Sibuna wrote: Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy. I will have my two Magus and a Patriarch trying to learn Summons, the other one learn biomancy and the inquisition learn divination. Make my opponent re-roll the seize or i can reroll because of coteaz. Have the Inquisition be my Distraction in the middle of the field and have all my vehicle outflank while the scout Cult Ambush. Everything else infiltrate and Cult Ambush but the two Hybrids in CAD. Could use some suggestion, been playing around the idea making my neo more usfull.
Total: 1955
Core Neophyte Cavalcade: 460
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double flamer - 115
1x min unit of Neo w/ chimera double flamer - 115
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit of scout sentinel w/ flamer - 35
1x min unit Leman Russ w/ Lascannon; Exterminator auto cannon; multi-melta - 160
Command The First Curse: 395
[Warlord]Patriarch ML2 - 115
Genestealers x20 - 280
2x Lord of the Cults
Magus ML2 w/ Crouchling - 85
Iconward w/ Icon of the cult - 95
Aux Subterranean Uprising: 500
Primus w/ Scourge and Void eye - 105
4x min units of Hybrids w/ cult icon - 50
3x min units of Meta 3 w/ claw, 2 w/ whip and cult icon - 65
Step1: I think your neophytes in the cavalcade cost 125 per unit not 115.
Step2: I don't think primus can have scourge and voids eye (I might not use ether)
Step3: why do you have 3 inq Psyker in one squad? You know they are brotherhood of Psyker and give no additional benefits after the first. So instead I would take 3 squads of 2 acolytes with bolters and one Psyker. Each has squad is 20 pts and gives you 1 warp charge total for the same cost as your 3 Psyker and 2 crusaders.
I might try to skim a few more points to beef up one of the 3 inq squads to use as a forest base for Coteaz 3 survitors with heavy bolters or multimeltas and a pair of lazermonkies with a few acolites meat shields is like 120pts but very worth it.
The inq is not a distraction your whole army is. Coteaz should sit in a ruin somewhere and just do firesupport. If the enemy is foolish enough to concentrate fire on him then you will smash him with all your gribbles. One thing to watch though in larger point games your min squads are easily wiped out even by overwatch by many full squads they might charge. I might consider beefing them up a bit to like 8men so they will have a chance to go back to the shadows and regenerate. I have built a similar army and I find that the higher the points the more the enemy has in his toolbox to deal with our cult ambush so be ready to loose squads. I like the idea of suicide bombers taking one or two min squads of acolytes with demo charges and tossing them at heavy concentrations of the enemy. They will die very quickly but that first turn pie plate is devastating.
Sorry for multiple edits but one last thing if you can find the points armored sentenals are so much better it's ridiculous as after they flame they can assault and most units can't Crack ar 12 so they are great tie up units.
I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?
SwampRats45MK wrote: I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?
Sibuna wrote: Here is my (un)friendly 2kish pt of GSC & Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy.
I'm not seeing the cheese here. You're spending an awful lot of points on vehicles which, at the end of the day, aren't all that capable, and Template weapons on a side-AV-10 vehicle is just asking for a wreck. I like Purestrains and Patriarchs as much as anyone, but The First Curse seems hugely expensive for such a fragile unit. What exactly is it about this army that you think is cheesy?
SwampRats45MK wrote: I noticed that no-one has mentioned the Deliverance Broodsurge formation as a possibly option. Having 2-6 Goliath's with 2-6 units of 10x Neophyte Hybrids with Shotguns, 2x Flamers or Webbers, a Cult Icon and a Leader with a Power Pick would be a good option to have start on the board as the rest of your army Cult Ambush's no?
I'm not sure why they'd need the wargear if they're just placeholding. Surely more bodies would be better than kit if all you want them to do is sit tight while you set up Ambushes?
See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.
SwampRats45MK wrote: See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.
Actually it's a longer charge isn't it? 12" vehicle move, 6" deployment, up to 12" charge. That puts you at a 30" charge range with a 25" average.
SwampRats45MK wrote: See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.
Don't quote me on this but I don't believe the Sergeants have the Unquestioning Loyalty SR. The Sergeant would simply die. Also the transports only hold 10 models and cannot hold any of the other HQs. The best you can do is a few IG equiv attacks and a few pick attacks. Doesn't seem to hot.
SwampRats45MK wrote: See I figured it wouldn't be a bad option to kit the Leaders with Power Picks and dual special weapons as the Goliaths can drive at Crusing Speed towards the enemy and the Neophytes charge from open topped transports. Thats possible 24" charge no? Average 19". Not bad, the Unquestioning Loyalty allows the leader to issue a challenge and his mooks tank wounds till he kills a MEQ. The squad can fire their shotguns and special weapons on the turn they charge to albeit snap firing but its not bad if you ask me. Also the Goliaths can ignore Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned.
Actually it's a longer charge isn't it? 12" vehicle move, 6" deployment, up to 12" charge. That puts you at a 30" charge range with a 25" average.
Up to a 36" threat range if you can give them run and charge and fleet through psychic powers, and a 31" average. We have some serious mobility, no matter what we do.
Anyone been playing with the Aberrants much? Back with the old Trysst Dynasty formation they generally performed well for me, but I haven't had much experience with them with the new codex yet.
Saythings wrote: Don't quote me on this but I don't believe the Sergeants have the Unquestioning Loyalty SR. The Sergeant would simply die. Also the transports only hold 10 models and cannot hold any of the other HQs. The best you can do is a few IG equiv attacks and a few pick attacks. Doesn't seem to hot.
No they don't, sadly. Only the Independent Characters do.
Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!
I've played a few games and recapped them if you want to look through my post history (but if you read this thread you've already seen them)
I'll be playing a game or two tomorrow as well, though the writeup likely won't happen until saturday afternoon
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!
I noticed I almost always want to try to go into the 'shadows' with all my units, to make sure I got the full Initiative. Even when you got first turn its to big of a risk to get seized. The only problem is that if you get second turn you need to use the ambush rule for your subterrean uprising when deploying. I put them behind my aegis defence line but I have to make sure the enemy cannot turbo boost within 6 inch because then I cannot use the 'return to the shadows' rule anymore. That can be really difficult when you're facing Scatterbikes. You can also try to scatter the units all over the field so that it is hard to block all units from using the 'return to the shadows' rule.
I also like the genestealer cult psykers/powers but I also don't want to spend to much time on this because playing this army takes up a lot of time as it is.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!
I've done two - both footslogging GSc versus Scatbike/ D-weapon Eldar. Won one, lost one, although the margin of victory wasn't huge in either.
Some stuff I've picked up:
1) Your models die like flies. Holy Empra do they ever like to die. This can, of course, be accounted for with Insurrection Reinforcements and Summons, but it bears remembering if you're coming to the army from MEQ-land like I did.
2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good.
3) I wasted points buying Flamers both times I played. I won't do that again. I can see some uses for them, but they're quite situational uses and I'd rather have the extra bodies instead.
4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSUMEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.
5) This doesn't apply to Purestrains. They're dead killy. However, killy as they are, I'd advise against using them as your front-line CC unit. Hold them back and use them to help your main line dudes break down stuff that's difficult to chew. Sending them in first is wasteful - they don't have grenades for one thing, which is bad news, but they're also an obvious threat, so you know for a fact your opponent is going to Overwatch at the Purestrains no matter what else you charge in with. Letting them charge stuff that's already locked in combat solves both of these problems at a stroke.
6) If you're running Uprisings, take a flippin' Primus. Ambush rolls can be very streaky even with the 2D6; an extra D6 helps smooth them out a bit.
7) The Patriarch, pound for pound, is a strictly average melee fighter. You don't take him to have fist-fights with tough stuff, especially not other army's CC units. He will die if you do that. You take him because he adds WC dice to your pool, and he has a Fearless bubble. Don't be afraid to keep him out of combat. This goes double for the Primus; it'll be harder to keep him out of combat because he'll likely be rolling with an Uprising squad, but don't expect miracles out of him, and try to keep him alive to keep the Hatred bubble up as long as possible.
8) Telepathic Summons is ossom. Psychic Stimulus is ossom. Don't neglect Broodmind if you're running Magi/ more than one Patriarch.
9) MSU is a good way to play an Insurrection army. Flimsy as your dudes are, there's nothing to guarantee that an opponent will be able to wipe a 5-man squad with a single unit's shooting - and if he doesn't wipe them out, they can RttS, Reinforce, and return next turn to smear his nose. If he **does** concentrate on wiping out units, he's guaranteed to end up wasting at least some of his firepower to take down single models. That's good for you.
10) Remember to use Cult Ambush constantly and liberally, both to Reinforce damaged units and to re-position when required. I'm still struggling with this, just because it's so different to anything else I'm used to, but I think this is the key to running footslogging GSC armies successfully.
Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.
EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.
I played the 2nd round of my Escalation League last night, and won a rousing victory For the Father!!!
My army was as follows:
CAD 1 Magus w/ Crouchling & 2 Familiars, Mastery Level 2
1 Magus w/ Mastery Level 2
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launchers in a Goliath
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Mining Lasers in a Goliath
1 Goliath as a Fast Attack choice (my Limo as a counts-as Goliath - see my Cult log in my sig below)
Neophyte Cavalcade
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Grenade Launchers in a Chimera
10 Neophytes w/ 2 Flamers & 1 Heavy Stubber in a Chimera
1 Leman Russ Exterminator w/ Lascannon & 2 Mult-Meltas
1 Scout Sentinel w/ Heavy Flamer
1 Armoured Sentinel w/ Autocannon & Hunter-Killer Missile
I was facing Space Wolves and the mission was "Here I Shall Die" from Angels of Death. My opponent was the "Space Marine Player" and I got the first turn. It started slow, with me only wrecking a Razorback and Rhino on the first turn and whiffing both attempts to use Telepathic Summons, but then things picked up as I managed to summon 2 units a Turn until I ran out of models available to summon. The game ended with me winning 14-6 having tabled him and taken the Objective, as well as earning Slay the Warlord and First Blood.
My takeaway from this game is two-fold.
1) When things go well with this army, they can go really, really well.
2) I need to assembly a LOT more models if I want to take advantage of Telepathic Summons once we get to the higher point levels. Most of the stuff I summoned from tonight already appear in my later planned lists. Thankfully, I just got another few sets of Overkill models (mostly Neophytes, but some Acolytes as well) so I can kit out several more squads!
Oh, and I'm happy to report that the Limo served admirably, resisting the efforts of a unit of Grey Hunters (with a melta gun and a combi-melta), defying them to even scratch its paint for two turns. (He was out of Melta range on the first turn, missing with one and failing to glance with the other, then the melta gunner fell to twin-linked Autocannon shooting and a Krak grenade and lots of close combat Attacks failed to scratch it.) Sadly, it was eventually destroyed on Turn 4 - but basically held up that unit of Grey Hunters for all four of those turns as he stubbornly continued to try and destroy it!
BBAP wrote: Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.
I hadn't even considered that conundrum yet - mainly because I have yet to have a unit Fall Back thus far, except for a unit of Acolytes that were caught by a Sweeping Advance so it didn't come up. I believe I agree with your interpretation, on the grounds that Falling Back is a Compulsory Move, so you can't choose to do something else instead - and since Return to the Shadows is something you can do instead of Moving, you don't get that option.
Ambience 327 wrote: I hadn't even considered that conundrum yet - mainly because I have yet to have a unit Fall Back thus far, except for a unit of Acolytes that were caught by a Sweeping Advance so it didn't come up. I believe I agree with your interpretation, on the grounds that Falling Back is a Compulsory Move, so you can't choose to do something else instead - and since Return to the Shadows is something you can do instead of Moving, you don't get that option.
It's a pretty rare occurrence, especially if you're playing an MSU army; the frailty of the models means its rare that units survive to check Morale, let alone fail it. It does happen sometimes though, and we rule it the way we do for this exact reason. Likewise units that have gone to ground, although I think the rule is a lot more clear cut here - you can't move while G2G, so you can't do something "instead of moving".
4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSUMEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.
You really have to take into account that their fragile and that rending might not go the way you want. I once dropped a unit of 15 acolytes +2x rock saw + patriarch near two wraithknights and was really happy about it. Then both wraithknight charged this unit and with sum successful stomp results the killed this unit in two turns.
You have to play the mission. Take out the units that stand in your way of doing this and be prepared to lose a lot of units in the process.
BBAP wrote: EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.
YES, it's a lot harder then I thought because even when the can hit like a hammer, its still a glass hammer and things could go wrong very fast if you don't play smart.
shogun wrote: You have to play the mission. Take out the units that stand in your way of doing this and be prepared to lose a lot of units in the process.
The last part of that is what really threw me as an MEQ player - losing units is a big blow for my other armies, but with the GSC you're not only going to lose them, you have so many you can actually throw them away and it doesn't matter. Also Cult Ambush makes playing the mission so much easier - it's like Drop Pods 2.0, you can throw stuff down wherever it needs to be at that instant without worrying about it being out of position in later turns. I love it.
One other thing I'm finding more and more as I'm playtesting bigger MSU armies - don't be afraid to put stuff in Reserve, especially if you're running Uprisings, but bear in mind that if you go second whatever you leave on the table will have to weather two turns of abuse before it can RttS and recuperate. Reserve rolls synergise really well with Cult Ambush, allowing you to constantly throw fresh units at problems while your wounded ones skulk away to reinforce, and by the time the 5th turn rolls around you can have a pretty devastating clutch of units coming in at the last second to wreck some face.
[2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good..
You've gotten me thinking about that more and more. Initially I was intent on sprinkling in hand flamers and rock saws in small units. Now I think I'm just going to add more bodies.
What do you attach your primus to in your big 3d6 ambush subterranean unit? I was going to do a large squad of acolytes with saws, icon and upgraded leader? You doing a max squad of metamorphs with claws/whips?
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: What do you attach your primus to in your big 3d6 ambush subterranean unit? I was going to do a large squad of acolytes with saws, icon and upgraded leader? You doing a max squad of metamorphs with claws/whips?
No, just a 5-man unit of Claw-Morphs. For my money the only upgrades in the book worth paying for are Metamorph Claws and Mastery Level 2. In theory, my Primus and his dudes are supposed to be a semi-reliable unit of Claws that I can depend on to support assaults by other Ambushers. In practise I've rolled one 6 on the three occasions I've Ambushed him (9d6, one 6, what are the odds?), but provided you don't get a 1 or a 2 it's easy enough to just plonk him down near your 6ers and feed them Hatred. I think it's probably good to give him a bit of protection if you end up doing this, but I'm not really worried about losing him; Hatred is cool when you're rolling 40+ to-hit dice, but even without it you're still rolling 40+ to-hit dice.
This approach to using the Primus might make more sense if I show you the list I'm mucking about with in proxy games:
1850pts. The overarching principle is "ITC-legal, as many Claw-Morphs as possible plus Summoning & Fearless", although to be honest while the Summons is nice, I don't think the list would suffer much without it. You definitely want those Fearless bubbles though; they come in very handy indeed for a variety of reasons. I've played this iteration twice now, once against shooty Eldar and once against a silly Iron Hands invisible Bike-star with Celestine and Priests; both armies were quite small and it was easy enough to just drown them in bodies. I'm guessing that approach would hold up well against most things, but I'd like to test it some more first.
So I just played in a team tournament and got to play the GSC in a full competitive format for the first time, against some of the best west coast ITC players in the biz (including the winner of the BAO)
I ran:
Cult Insurrection Detachment
Neophyte Cavalcade
x10 neophytes, shotguns, chimera, multi laser, heavy flamer, dozer blade
x10 neophytes, shotguns, chimera, multi laser, heavy flamer, dozer blade
leman russ, exterminator autocannon, heavy flamer, dozer blade
scout sentinal, heavy flamer
The First Curse
Patriarch, level 2, x2 familiars
x20 purestrain genestealers, x15 scything talons
Lords of the Cult
magus, level 2, x2 familiars, the crouchling
acolyte iconward, icon of the cult ascendant
Notes:
-when the army goes right, it escalates VERY quickly, but when you get "meh" or abysmal ambush rolls, it goes bad VERY quickly
-seizing is a severe danger with this army, I got seized on first round vs a cabal dog DS, with some artillery and lost a good 60% of my army turn 1 due to the fact I had deployed very aggressively in his face with 3 6s being rolled, and he was then able to initiate all combats as he saw fit.
-do not be afraid to engage or place the first curse into danger from the start. I never got a 6 from this unit, but they can take a helluva punishment and are dead killy in CC.
-all of the leaders (save the icon bearer) are quite nasty in challenges, even the magus who is S5 base and with all those extra S4 attacks, he was credited for killing a sorcerer, and a bloodcrusher leader in CC -In an army like this the +1 to reserves is negligible as most is ongoing, but the -1 is useful
-In a more CC oriented cult list, the D6 models back when returning almost NEVER happens. It is very easy for opponents to place a model 6" away, and when CC oriented they are always either in combat, or next to enemies.
Per formation:
-uprising is da S$#@, seriously that extra roll is CRITICAL to its success. Forcing them to deploy via ambush is no biggie even if going second, as you just stick them at your edge, reserve them turn 1 and bring everything in turn 2 all at once. -The whip unit with bonesword guy is especially useful for clearing up equal or higher initiative enemies when you want to mitigate casualties, and the bonesword is excellent to have when dealing with any armor 3+ models.
-As most people have discovered, claw hybrids are amazing and threaten anything in the game with ease, twice a single unit killed a knight on the charge.
-The acolytes did admirably, rock saws murder vehicles, the clippers gave things like surges heart palpitations, they are fun and can be useful, but not essential, great distraction unit
-I will split the acolyte squads into 2x5 in the future, as I fell they are better served as units to eat overwatch for claw hybrids, and this allows me more chances for 6s on ambush
First Curse:
-fun, murderous and EXPENSIVE. But surprisingly hard to kill, especially when you get lucky and roll endurance...
Cavalcade:
-mediocre at best, good saturation, flamers on everything for outflanking is key
That is about all I can think of, the cavalcade is def a tax formation, but still useful in certain respects, the curse inspires great fear in enemies and the sub is just the bee's knees yall
gameandwatch wrote: -when the army goes right, it escalates VERY quickly, but when you get "meh" or abysmal ambush rolls, it goes bad VERY quickly
I think that's a result of folding all your little units up into singles. Min squads are only putting out half as many attacks as 10-mans, but they get twice as many Ambush dice. It's perfectly possible to roll 15+ Ambushes and not get a single 6 even with most of your army in Uprisings (believe me, I know), but it's much less likely than if you're only rolling 7 Ambushes.
-seizing is a severe danger with this army, I got seized on first round vs a cabal dog DS, with some artillery and lost a good 60% of my army turn 1 due to the fact I had deployed very aggressively in his face with 3 6s being rolled, and he was then able to initiate all combats as he saw fit.
As someone else told me in another thread the secret to this army seems to be to always deploy as if you're going second. Deploy a couple of units, at most, up front to threaten and hold the rest of your stuff back, then RttS (almost) everything on turn one, and start playing on turn two when your Ambush comes in.
Reserves also mesh quite nicely with Cult Ambush, particularly if you have a large number of units.
-I will split the acolyte squads into 2x5 in the future, as I fell they are better served as units to eat overwatch for claw hybrids, and this allows me more chances for 6s on ambush
People will ALWAYS Overwatch at the Morphs. Always. Your Acolytes are there to make up for any Morphs you lose to Overwatch - they're not as good as the Morphs, but they're still pretty nasty in their own right.
Also that Whip-Morph squad is exactly the same as the one I usually opt for when Summoning stuff. I love it to bits - WS5, I7 with grenades, and a lovely bonesword to smush characters. Everyone else hates it.
BBAP wrote: As someone else told me in another thread the secret to this army seems to be to always deploy as if you're going second. Deploy a couple of units, at most, up front to threaten and hold the rest of your stuff back, then RttS (almost) everything on turn one, and start playing on turn two when your Ambush comes in.
Their 3 effective ways to play this army:
- Ambush/deploy right in their face into sum terrain and make use of the shrouding that comes with the detachment. You will lose half your army if you go second, but the other half gets the job done.
- Go into ongoing reserve with your units and start playing the second turn. That way you always got the ambush initiative and you never get seized.
- Play the mission and trow sum distraction units in their face while the other units do the "This is mine" dance on the tactical objectives.
After a few test games I think I always want to include at least 2 patriarchs (1850 point list) because 1 fearless bubble is not enough. I am also going to trow out the hand flamers but I do want 2 big acolyte units of 15 with 2 rock saws in there. 1 unit with the primus can roll 3d6 and the other one could go with the patriarch warlord, that might get the warlord trait nr '6' and can choose his ambush result.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Anyone else getting some practice games in to give us some wisdom of gameplay with this army? I'm living through you guys as I've been tied up with work and family things. Dying to get some games in!
I've done two - both footslogging GSc versus Scatbike/ D-weapon Eldar. Won one, lost one, although the margin of victory wasn't huge in either.
Some stuff I've picked up:
1) Your models die like flies. Holy Empra do they ever like to die. This can, of course, be accounted for with Insurrection Reinforcements and Summons, but it bears remembering if you're coming to the army from MEQ-land like I did.
2) Rock Saws - don't do it. AP2 close combat attacks can cause tanks to explode all over your squishy bods. Paying to kill your own dudes in assault is bad. If you want them, put them on Summoned squads. De-clawed Morphs should likewise be left at home; they don't Explode stuff, they're just not very good.
3) I wasted points buying Flamers both times I played. I won't do that again. I can see some uses for them, but they're quite situational uses and I'd rather have the extra bodies instead.
4) Sort of flows from point 1: min-maxed Acolyte squads and Morphs are not reliable enough to work alone, even against stupid stuff like Scatbikes or Warp Spiders, and running 5 into MSUMEQs is extremely risky. With such flimsy dudes and the propensity for 4+ hit/ wound assault rolls to whiff, it's all to easy to lose combat by 1 and get Swept. There were some spectacular moments of whiffage and near-whiffage in assaults (5 Morphs versus a Vaul's Wrath crew, foregone conclusion right? Wrong) and overall I'd recommend charging with at least 2 units wherever possible, 3 if you're expecting a nasty Overwatch.
5) This doesn't apply to Purestrains. They're dead killy. However, killy as they are, I'd advise against using them as your front-line CC unit. Hold them back and use them to help your main line dudes break down stuff that's difficult to chew. Sending them in first is wasteful - they don't have grenades for one thing, which is bad news, but they're also an obvious threat, so you know for a fact your opponent is going to Overwatch at the Purestrains no matter what else you charge in with. Letting them charge stuff that's already locked in combat solves both of these problems at a stroke.
6) If you're running Uprisings, take a flippin' Primus. Ambush rolls can be very streaky even with the 2D6; an extra D6 helps smooth them out a bit.
7) The Patriarch, pound for pound, is a strictly average melee fighter. You don't take him to have fist-fights with tough stuff, especially not other army's CC units. He will die if you do that. You take him because he adds WC dice to your pool, and he has a Fearless bubble. Don't be afraid to keep him out of combat. This goes double for the Primus; it'll be harder to keep him out of combat because he'll likely be rolling with an Uprising squad, but don't expect miracles out of him, and try to keep him alive to keep the Hatred bubble up as long as possible.
8) Telepathic Summons is ossom. Psychic Stimulus is ossom. Don't neglect Broodmind if you're running Magi/ more than one Patriarch.
9) MSU is a good way to play an Insurrection army. Flimsy as your dudes are, there's nothing to guarantee that an opponent will be able to wipe a 5-man squad with a single unit's shooting - and if he doesn't wipe them out, they can RttS, Reinforce, and return next turn to smear his nose. If he **does** concentrate on wiping out units, he's guaranteed to end up wasting at least some of his firepower to take down single models. That's good for you.
10) Remember to use Cult Ambush constantly and liberally, both to Reinforce damaged units and to re-position when required. I'm still struggling with this, just because it's so different to anything else I'm used to, but I think this is the key to running footslogging GSC armies successfully.
Another piece of advice which may be worth heeding depending on how your group plays RttS: I play it that units can't RttS instead of Falling Back or Regrouping - I can't find anything to support them being able to do so, and in the absence of a good argument to allow it I choose to go with the most conservative option. In this situation, having a Patriarch bubble as a backstop is great for catching units that are fleeing from a failed Ambush, so they can either get back into the fight or RttS next turn to Reinforce.
EDIT: Also, final advice - GSC are awesome and fantastic fun to play. No idea how competitive they might be, but they're a real hoot to run.
Agree with most of what you said, except.
2) It's a buried powerfist, it's fantastic. If you run into a rhino or something you don't want to explode... just use your rending claws. You have multiple weapons, you know.
5) You can't overwatch once the first unit makes contact, so they can't save overwatch for you if you have other units able to make charges.
7) He gets 8 rending attacks at WS/I 7 for 100 pts. Half of which are at S6 with shred and AP3. That's really powerful for the cost. With his unquestioning loyalty, he should be the absolute last model to die. I can't think of many things he won't kill that aren't 2x+ his cost. With wounds flowing out of challenges, he can easily pick out enemy characters and then still do a decent number of wounds to a squad. He's not going to kill Abaddon or a SM Chapter Master... but he's also barely more expensive than a tac squad.
I ran a pair of first curse formations with a Tyranid army (Sky tyrant formation, flyrant, 3x1 zoes, 2x5 man GS with Broodlord), the patriarchs did some serious heavy lifting. Meganob squad, maulerfiend, nobz, etc. 3A base stealers is really powerful. Stealth and 5++ makes stealers slightly more durable, with the formation to give them shrouding and FNP they'd be even better. Getting seized on and rolling poorly on cult ambush hurts, but the 3A base and durability means you're still fighting pretty well on the defensive.
Traceoftoxin wrote: 2) It's a buried powerfist, it's fantastic. If you run into a rhino or something you don't want to explode... just use your rending claws. You have multiple weapons, you know.
I always forget you can choose to use another weapon in CC. That'll come in handy. I still think the Saws are too expensive, and not strictly necessary if you have Claws everywhere, but that's another issue entirely.
5) You can't overwatch once the first unit makes contact, so they can't save overwatch for you if you have other units able to make charges.
Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units - so if you declare charges with multiple units the target can pick which one it Overwatches against, because none make contact until after that's resolved.
7) He gets 8 rending attacks at WS/I 7 for 100 pts. Half of which are at S6 with shred and AP3. That's really powerful for the cost. With his unquestioning loyalty, he should be the absolute last model to die. I can't think of many things he won't kill that aren't 2x+ his cost. With wounds flowing out of challenges, he can easily pick out enemy characters and then still do a decent number of wounds to a squad. He's not going to kill Abaddon or a SM Chapter Master... but he's also barely more expensive than a tac squad.
He only gets 8A if you take the Familiars, which isn't a bad idea, but isn't necessary to get the most out of him, I feel. He'll put a hole in basic troopers and HQs all day long, but everything else in the army can do that anyway, and considering what else he brings to the army in the shape of Fearless bubbles it feels a bit wasteful to me to have Big Poppa fighting. I'm not saying "don't ever do it", because he's still --good-- at it, but so is everything else in the army (except Neophytes) so it's easy enough to keep him out of combat and not miss him.
An example; the last game I played was against an Iron Hands Bike deathstar with a Smashf**ker Prime. My Acolytes and Morphs did pretty much all of the killing that occurred, while my three Patriarchs skulked around in cover, passing off Whirlwind wounds to their Neophytes and making everything Fearless and preventing Fall Backs. They didn't charge once and I still managed to take out everything bar the deathstar, which had a few dudes missing by the end of the game (although the 4 dudes I managed to kill cost me 8 or 9 squads).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shogun wrote: - Ambush/deploy right in their face into sum terrain and make use of the shrouding that comes with the detachment. You will lose half your army if you go second, but the other half gets the job done.
- Go into ongoing reserve with your units and start playing the second turn. That way you always got the ambush initiative and you never get seized.
- Play the mission and trow sum distraction units in their face while the other units do the "This is mine" dance on the tactical objectives.
I'm not sure #1 is a good idea, depending on how you run your army. It seems like it'd be too easy to lose the other half of your army through attrition during the game, what with it being so fragile.
#3 is one of the main reasons I love the GSC though. ObSec units with Cult Ambush are a big-time menace, and being able to just get Linebreaker out of nowhere makes me feel good inside.
Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units
Your order is right, but its singular not plural. You declare a charge with a single unit at a time, not all charges. After declaring that single charge, opp decides to overwatch or not against that single unit and resolves it. Then declared unit rolls the charge and moves if it still can. Rinse and repeat declaring a charge, resolving the overwatch (if the unit is not locked in a previous step) and moving chargers.
Is that right? The order in the book is declare charges ==> resolve Overwatch ==> move charging units
Your order is right, but its singular not plural. You declare a charge with a single unit at a time, not all charges. After declaring that single charge, opp decides to overwatch or not against that single unit and resolves it. Then declared unit rolls the charge and moves if it still can. Rinse and repeat declaring a charge, resolving the overwatch (if the unit is not locked in a previous step) and moving chargers.
Nice one! That'll keep my gribblies safer from now on.
I want to make sure I am doing this right. I'm fairly certain that I am but enough people have said otherwise on the forums ect that I'm looking for conformation.
1: A unit with cult ambush and infiltrate may roll on the cult ambush chart to deploy on the first turn, otherwise any unit with this rule in reserves may cult ambush when they arrive from reserves.
2: This means all my units in my Cult uprising (which gives them all infiltrate) except my tanks/Chimeras/Goliaths may cult ambush when deploying on the first turn.
3: This also means that they may move or return to the shadows on the first turn as they "deployed" that way not arrived from reserves.
The way I do it is they deploy during the "Infiltrate" phase of deployment, so before the first turn. Then, because they Ambushed in deployment and not on turn 1, they can RttS during turn one. Units coming out of reserve I treat the same as units coming out of Ongoing Reserve, so it's just regular old Cult Ambush.
That's the way i read the rules anyway. It needs clarification before there can be any arguments one way or the other I think, although if you only deploy them on turn 1 using Cult Ambush it prevents RttS in turn 1. They'd have to wait until turn 2.
BBAP wrote: I think I saw you in the other thread.
The way I do it is they deploy during the "Infiltrate" phase of deployment, so before the first turn. Then, because they Ambushed in deployment and not on turn 1, they can RttS during turn one. Units coming out of reserve I treat the same as units coming out of Ongoing Reserve, so it's just regular old Cult Ambush.
That's the way i read the rules anyway. It needs clarification before there can be any arguments one way or the other I think, although if you only deploy them on turn 1 using Cult Ambush it prevents RttS in turn 1. They'd have to wait until turn 2.
That is correct. Coming in out of reserves is easy enough, but the way I play it is that they follow the limit to infiltrate in that they can't assaukt turn 1 after infiltrating, unless they roll that six. And, remember that you can either RTTS or hold still and shoot heavy weapons like normal, unlike coming in from reserves via cult ambush.
But, there is an argument about coming in from CA and whether a 3-6 counts as moving if you have a heavy weapon...
and this is why I want things to be clear so when the next tourny comes around I don't accidentally do something wrong or build around a misinterpretation.
jifel wrote: That is correct. Coming in out of reserves is easy enough, but the way I play it is that they follow the limit to infiltrate in that they can't assaukt turn 1 after infiltrating, unless they roll that six.
That seems pretty cut-and-dried to me; it's modified Infiltrate/ arrive from Reserves, but that's still what the unit is doing so all the usual restrictions apply. It means you have to risk units getting chewed up to get them into the best positions, which seems reasonable to me - everyone else has to do it, why would the GSC be any different?
But, there is an argument about coming in from CA and whether a 3-6 counts as moving if you have a heavy weapon...
This seems less cut and dried, but I'd say they do, for the same reasons as above. CA modifies the deployment from Reserves but that's still what the unit is doing. Everyone else has to do it, why should the GSC be different?
That's not RAW, that's just me playing it conservative.
Not to mention GSC Heavy weapons are a bit... lacklustre in my view. MOAR Claw-Morphs is all you need. Ditch the Lasers and buy more Morphs.
Couldn't agree more! I don't like spending points on weapons, when I see two seismic cannons Id rather have five more acolytes... But for summoning, it could certainly be worth it. 20 bodies for 3 WC is golden.
Can't argue with that, although I've never had a Summoned Neophyte unit do anything but Outflank so it's never come up for me. If it did, I'd go for "moving", just because of the above. I'm not sure I see the argument for "not moving" - they're entering from reserve after all.
Now with that sort of settled the next issue is with characters other than the Primus joining a sub uprising squad.
Do they still get the 3 dice for CA that the Primus gives them or do they drop back to 1 dice?
Also what about a Primus or two added from another source such as a CAD? Do they give the 3 dice or are they back to 1 Dice since they are not part of the detachment?
Timeshadow wrote: Now with that sort of settled the next issue is with characters other than the Primus joining a sub uprising squad.
Do they still get the 3 dice for CA that the Primus gives them or do they drop back to 1 dice?
Also what about a Primus or two added from another source such as a CAD? Do they give the 3 dice or are they back to 1 Dice since they are not part of the detachment?
This one is very easy. If you're using the GWfaq, no. Attached characters from outside sources can't benefit from formation rules, only models do. So, you lose the special rules for anything that joins it, and therefore the whole squad loses the 3d6. Even if it's a Primus, you do not benefit from the special rule at all so no 3d6. Only SubUp Primus' can benefit from rules and trigger the 3d6. Of course, if you're not using the GWFAQs then yes all deployment rules for "the unit" are transferred.
So if you have an IC attached to a SubUp squad without a Primus, the squad is back down to 1D6? Seems reasonable to me. I doubt the designers intended to give Patriarchs a 33% chance to charge out of Reserve.
So, I'm looking over the new final FAQ, anyone see any gems for us? One that is overlooked is that allies never contest your own objectives, which is great for us as we often have Convenient Allies. Plus, Im hoping it will set a precedent for Allies of Convenience not counting as enemies for RTTS and CA... (and, please, Shadows in the Warp...)
I haven't seen much discussion on allies here. I feel like IG could seriously round out the army. In particular some of the more aggressive Russ variety, like how about the leman russ formation where you can field I think 5 and they all get +1 BS near the command tank. That and a command from cadian detachment for an officer of the fleet could make a solid anchor for the army allowing it to reserve/RTTS turn 1 with everything else and not worry about the tabling, while also giving -2 to your opponents reserves!
Biggest issue I have with relying on only GSC is the win big lose big factor. If you try to mitigate that by playing conservative in the early turns you also give up board control turns 1-2 which in maelstrom can be the death knell. I mean I have had eldar and marine lists go up to 12 VP's turn 1 in that stupid 6 card start mission because of their mobility and obsec.
Maybe the answer is also more cathartic, simply give up the points early and go for the tabling F you top tier.
I mentioned awhile ago that the IG artillery formation seems like the peanut butter to GSC's chocolate. I haven't tried it out, myself, but a couple Wyverns and subtotal reserve denial never hurt anyone's list.
Red Corsair wrote: I haven't seen much discussion on allies here. I feel like IG could seriously round out the army. In particular some of the more aggressive Russ variety, like how about the leman russ formation where you can field I think 5 and they all get +1 BS near the command tank. That and a command from cadian detachment for an officer of the fleet could make a solid anchor for the army allowing it to reserve/RTTS turn 1 with everything else and not worry about the tabling, while also giving -2 to your opponents reserves!
Can't speak to the Guard because I don't own the book and nobody I know plays them, but I tried out a two-Flyrant three-Mucolid Nids Detachment in my last game, and in all honesty I wasn't impressed. It's not that the Flyrants were bad, I just don't think they brought anything decisive to the table, and there were several points where I thought the game might've been easier if I'd brought the stuff I had to dump to fit them in (mostly MOAR SubUp Claw-Morphs and Acolytes).
Then again my usual opponents run Scatbike/ WK Eldar, Nids, an invisible IH deathstar, and a "Chambers Militant" army, so Flyers aren't a huge issue for me. Allies might shine brighter in a TAC environment with more varied opponents, but I'd definitely recommend a conservative approach to adding them. The only thing you really need Allies for is killing Flyers; the GSC Codex has got everything else covered pretty much, so make sure whatever you're adding doesn't detract from the basic awesomeness of the Cults and you should be able to build something functional.
Maybe the answer is also more cathartic, simply give up the points early and go for the tabling F you top tier.
Funny you say that, because I seem to have trouble tabling people with my GSC. I've come close once or twice but because of how I run the army - I lose loads of models, but the opponent loses even more - I just never seem to get to turn 5+ with quite enough hitting power left to finish opponents off. Maybe something to consider; maybe just me not protecting my units properly.
Morris782 wrote: Random question. If I summon units with the psyker power, do they benefit from formation bonuses of the summoner? Or are they "unbound"?
I play the latter - I can't see any good reason for them to benefit from formation bonuses so I don't give them to my Summons. They already get all the wargear they can carry for free, adding bonuses on top of that just seems rude.
I tend towards the 20 neophytes with 2 sysmic cannons 2 grenade launchers or flamers banner and kitted out Sgt. The main reason is it is more bodies and shooting is a more effective option in most cases.
My 2nd choice is 10 metamorphs with mostly claws and a few whips banner lw/bs Sgt and a few hand flamers.
I'm debating going with acolytes and rocksaws instead what do people think.
Just played a 1650 game against mechanicum taghmata (not 40k legal, I know, it was for fun). He had a castellax, unit of thallax, 2 20 man fearless thrall units, and a big blob of thanatars with a melee tech priest.
I was running the following:
Min Brood cycle, with whip metas and a flamer on each neo unit
First Curse (rolled poison, 2 crap biomancy powers, and the use his LD warlord trait, meh)
Magos with crouchling (mental onslaught, might from beyond and summoning)
Sub uprising with primus, 2 min acolytes and 3x10 claw metas with an icon each
CAD with 2 magoses (mental onslaught, 2 meh telepathy powers), a min acolyte squad and neophytes with an AC and a GL
Mission was big guns, and I let him go first. His thallax prevented me from infiltrating anything within 24" of them, so I hung back with the uprising and CAD and returned to the shadows T1 with the whole uprising. He did however kill one unit of acolytes and make a unit of claw-morphs fall back and was later killed by the castellax, so quite a chunk out of my force (I was playing it that falling back units couldn't RttS).
Turn 2 I managed to fail 4 2+ reserve rolls for my 8 units off the table, including for my first cursed and the unit with my summoning magos. Got a 6 on one unit of acolytes and one claw-morph unit, who proceeded to multi-charge the thanatars and a unit of tech-thralls. In hindsight, I should've just locked up the castellax, as next turn it proceeded to delete my other 10-man clawmorph unit with my primus in who had ambushed in behind the charging units.
The next turn the rest of my army arrived and I summoned a unit of 10 claw-morphs, who proceeded to roll a 1 and never do anything! However, a lot of the rest of my army closed down another flank and slowly whittled down the other tech thrall unit. I did then proceed to fail 10/11 5+ saves and lose my entire first cursed unit in a single turn, which was unfortunate - the price of coming in piecemeal!
A lot of my units had been rolling 1s on ambush and cycling though, so the following turn my Iconward's unit, a CAD acolyte unit and the whip-morphs multicharged the thralls and thallax to finish them off, whilst another unit of acolytes locked up his castellax, finally. Game ended on turn 5 with only 1 locked thallax, a 3 wound castellax and the deathstar unit alive, and me up 13:2 (4 objs and linebreaker VS first blood and warlord). Cycling units had enabled me to keep stuff on the back two objectives whilst also throwing more and more into the fray. I did lose over 100 models (I think) but there were still 40 or so left, and the attrition had taken its toll - he just didn't have enough units to deal with my MSU.
In terms of lessons, I now fully appreciate those of you who have been saying MSU is the way to go - both for more ambush rolls and for forcing overkill from the opponent. I also want to take another Patriarch for the fearless bubble, and am considering an aegis for a 2+ save for the whole uprising on the first turn. My new draft list looks like this:
CAD ML2 Patriarch, 2 familiars
ML2 Magos, 2 familiars
2x10 neophytes, AC team and 2 GLs each
Aegis with quadgun
Gives me a lot more units with a similar number of models than I had before. 4x10 man neophyte units to slap my Psykers in to protect them. Might drop some of the familiars (35pts worth) and the Quad-gun for another unit of Purestrains or maybe 5 more metas and an icon in one unit for the Primus to join.
I think Summons are situational. I have one load-out I like - 10 Morphs, all Whips, Icon, LW&BS leader - but if you need the shooty Neophytes or want the Rock Saws, you can have them instead.
What I'm trying to figure out is what would be the most efficient way of buying and modelling your Summons alongside the rest of your army. Might be worth us trying to figure out if there's a way to do it without adding 100-200 quid to the cost of the army (which is already 600+ quid at 1850pts).
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Benlisted wrote: First Curse (rolled poison, 2 crap biomancy powers, and the use his LD warlord trait, meh)
I kinda like the "use his Ld" Warlord trait for mobbed-up GSC. Forcing Morale is much, much less effective against an Ld10 army than it is against an Ld8 one, which forces your opponent to either finish off your piffling min squads with too much firepower, or move stuff out of position to deny RttS/ Reinforce. Plus it makes your spare Patriarchs much less important because the "backstop" bubbles aren't a big deal if nobody's failing Morale, so you can be a bit more aggressive with them.
In terms of lessons, I now fully appreciate those of you who have been saying MSU is the way to go - both for more ambush rolls and for forcing overkill from the opponent. I also want to take another Patriarch for the fearless bubble, and am considering an aegis for a 2+ save for the whole uprising on the first turn.
Someone mentioned Fortifications to me in another thread too - the Aegis sounds like a really good idea if you're running mass SubUps and are forced to deploy on the table, especially in ETC formats with set table layouts, none of which offer much cover. Still haven't picked up the book yet though.
Thats a brood cycle + 3 subterean uprising + tyranid cad with deathleaper and two sporefields bobs + 3 forgeworld sporebombs.
evaluation:
Damn I love this army!
First round I fought a space wolf army and I claimed so much tactical objectives that it was hard to lose. It so much fun because it's a real fight for both armies. We both lost a lot but in the end he was capable to still hold an objective that gave him an extra 3 Victory points so I won with 16-4.
Second round I fought 3 imperial knights + ravenwing bikes. I got first turn and wanted to cripple his army right away. then he seized... Mission was deathlock and the first and second turn I got so much tactical objectives I thought I could still pull this off! But 3 knights that could divide all their shots was a bit to much. In the end all 6 objectives were worth 2 Vp and he got 4 of them so that was a big lose for me.
third round
I love this pic:
Enemies army only deployed 2 razorbacks + thunderfirecannon.
The only problem is that this mission was old skool codex points. His flyers came in and their was no way i could take them down. Next time I should just deploy all my models 2 inch apart from each other to block the whole field.
What to change:
Going to lose the tyranids.. It was fun but I rather get more cult units and more psykers. Dont really need another fearless patriarch because my units either die right away or win big. Fearless is not really a big deal but iam going to keep 1 patriarch because I want to add another big unit acolytes with 2 rock saws and then its nice to have sum fearless around. I'am really missing furious charge when my iconward is not around but when I pick more psykers I can give certain units rage +1 strenght (might from beyond). Summoning can be so cool but then I do need the models to be flexible with the free upgrades.
The lesson I learned: dont try to get first turn in their face. Karma shows you will get seized.
To much trust in the cult ambush table will punish you. My big unit with primus that got 3d6 for cult ambush? 2 times I got 1-1-2 result.... Keep playing multible small units....
Nicely done, sir! I like that picture too; it's maybe not the "optimal" thing to do at deployment, but damn if it doesn't feel good to hem someone into a corner like that.
I hadn't even though about multiple Imperial Knights being an issue because I rarely ever see them, and when I do it's one Knight max. I suppose that's the kind of thing you need to consider at tournaments though. I think it'll be difficult to deal with them without relying on Cult Ambush, which is not good...
BBAP wrote: Nicely done, sir! I like that picture too; it's maybe not the "optimal" thing to do at deployment, but damn if it doesn't feel good to hem someone into a corner like that.
I hadn't even though about multiple Imperial Knights being an issue because I rarely ever see them, and when I do it's one Knight max. I suppose that's the kind of thing you need to consider at tournaments though. I think it'll be difficult to deal with them without relying on Cult Ambush, which is not good...
It was that baronial court (or sumthing like that) and the get overwatch if the stick close to each other. If he didn't seized I would have simply won because then My first assault would have taken out his bikes and then those knights would have been locked in the corner the whole game. Also a tip: Don't field all your leaders close to each other because the 'look out sir' wounds still go the nearest model.
I need sum great summoning units. I would really want the possibility to trow in 20 hybrid neophyte's or 10 acolytes with 2 rock saws.
Sibuna wrote: When I want to start summoning units, what would be a optimal unit composition of 20 neophytes?
I think optimal is 20 guys with a power pick sergeant, two grenade launchers and two Seismic Cannons. But, I like to keep two mining lasers there just in case I need them for a riptide.
Neophytes perform best against infantry. If you're summoning anti-tank/ LoW-killers you want Claw-Morphs, Stealers, or potentially Aberrants. For that reason I think the best load-out for Summoned Neophyte units is 2 Seismic Cannons, 2 Webbers, an Icon, and a Web Pistol/ Power Maul Leader.
Seismic Cannons have a high RoF, which helps to overcome BS3, and can be used as anti-tank weapons in a pinch. Web weapons will mess up Warp Spiders and Scatbikes a treat and perform reasonably well against MEQs too. Power Picks are cool, but if the Leader gets Challenged he'll probably die before he gets to swing it. The Maul is more likely to do some damage.
BBAP wrote: Neophytes perform best against infantry. If you're summoning anti-tank/ LoW-killers you want Claw-Morphs, Stealers, or potentially Aberrants. For that reason I think the best load-out for Summoned Neophyte units is 2 Seismic Cannons, 2 Webbers, an Icon, and a Web Pistol/ Power Maul Leader.
Seismic Cannons have a high RoF, which helps to overcome BS3, and can be used as anti-tank weapons in a pinch. Web weapons will mess up Warp Spiders and Scatbikes a treat and perform reasonably well against MEQs too. Power Picks are cool, but if the Leader gets Challenged he'll probably die before he gets to swing it. The Maul is more likely to do some damage.
Depends on what you're going for. If my army got 2x telepathic summon and I want to take down a flyer the its better to summon 2x10 neophyte units with 2 Seismic cannons + 2 grenade launchers. 8x s8 ap3 shots + 4x s6 shots will make them jink, believe me.
shogun wrote: Depends on what you're going for. If my army got 2x telepathic summon and I want to take down a flyer the its better to summon 2x10 neophyte units with 2 Seismic cannons + 2 grenade launchers. 8x s8 ap3 shots + 4x s6 shots will make them jink, believe me.
That's not a bad idea if you want to play pure GSC, but it means landing Summons, which isn't guaranteed, and fishing for it might not be a good idea if you've got units that want Invisibility or Shrouding. I still think Allies are the best way to deal with Flyers. Hive Tyrants (kinda) work, but I proxied a Guard contingent in my last game and that seemed a bit more solid. Guard shooting isn't mega-reliable, but you get plenty of it for the same cost as a couple of Flyrants and it'll do the job it needs to. At worst, it'll syphon off some of the shooting your opponent might otherwise direct at your GSC bods.
I finally got the chance to get my first game in with GSC this weekend. I played against an space marine gladius with scout auxiliary in storms.
A combination of all those MSU in transports with a smattering of drop pods and outflanking scouts (with weapons that make us hurt) that can come in late really puts the hurt on our list.
I found myself wanting ways to take out transports at a distance or not sacrificing my min squads to take out his vehicles. With them being objective secured I need to knock them out as well as kill the squishy innards (which have bolters that hurt our list!).
The things that did extremely well for me was the first curse (no surprise there) and what did surprise me was my russ with autocannons, melta sponsons, and lascannon. Coming in from the flank it didn't have to deal with the initial drop pod wave.
I think I could even get by with some simple russ with the autocannon and a heavy flamer front. If I was worried about an initial drop, I could leave them in regular reserve as well. Has anyone given it more thought to have some additional ranged units to provide firepower and camp backfield objectives for missions like the ITC that has progressive or malestorm objectives?
I like the idea of having a defense line as well. When I'm recycling back units that roll 1's or 2's, I could always place an objective in the back quadrant of my side that could be contested or threatened by one of my units as well as it would keep my initial placement safe (combined with shrouding).
Definitely a lot of fun options for the cult. It was a blast to play.
shogun wrote: Depends on what you're going for. If my army got 2x telepathic summon and I want to take down a flyer the its better to summon 2x10 neophyte units with 2 Seismic cannons + 2 grenade launchers. 8x s8 ap3 shots + 4x s6 shots will make them jink, believe me.
That's not a bad idea if you want to play pure GSC, but it means landing Summons, which isn't guaranteed, and fishing for it might not be a good idea if you've got units that want Invisibility or Shrouding. I still think Allies are the best way to deal with Flyers. Hive Tyrants (kinda) work, but I proxied a Guard contingent in my last game and that seemed a bit more solid. Guard shooting isn't mega-reliable, but you get plenty of it for the same cost as a couple of Flyrants and it'll do the job it needs to. At worst, it'll syphon off some of the shooting your opponent might otherwise direct at your GSC bods.
My new list will have a patriarch + 3x magus with 1 psychic familiair, so thats 9 psychic powers. if I dont get summon then i do get mind control and then i might try to use the enemies shooting to take down a flyer.
Its all about having the right tools at the needed time.
A flying hive is never a wrong choice but I rather take more GSC units to trow in their face. You have to make sure that at least a few units get that "6"result and lock those enemy units in CC, so that the second wave can come in.
shogun wrote: Its all about having the right tools at the needed time.
True enough. To be honest I don't think there's any "best" answer to stuff in this Codex; it all works, and it's all usable (except Mining Lasers, lol).
I like the idea of the 3 Maguses, I might try that next time I get a chance to proxy up. The Patriarchs are infuriating whiff-machines in close combat and I'm starting to think having more than one Fearless bubble is just a crutch. I think I could probably live without the extras.
I think I could even get by with some simple russ with the autocannon and a heavy flamer front. If I was worried about an initial drop, I could leave them in regular reserve as well. Has anyone given it more thought to have some additional ranged units to provide firepower and camp backfield objectives for missions like the ITC that has progressive or malestorm objectives?
No, I think your better off with more close combat units in their face and summon the shootie units that you like. For my next tournament I maybe want more troops that are objective secured (CAD). Just play the mission and drop them last turn +run move and claim. With my full infantry army I like the fact that all those graviton/melta shots are pretty much useless. But watch out for those flamers! Normally I didn't care about the enemies flamers but now I want to now where the are hiding! 5 tactical marines with (combi) flamers stepping out of a razorback burnt down my small acolyte deathstarr.
I like the idea of having a defense line as well. When I'm recycling back units that roll 1's or 2's, I could always place an objective in the back quadrant of my side that could be contested or threatened by one of my units as well as it would keep my initial placement safe (combined with shrouding).
For my army that defence line is mandatory. Put it in a corner + first turn formation shrouded (or pychic power shrouded) and thats a 2+ coversave.
I found myself wanting ways to take out transports at a distance or not sacrificing my min squads to take out his vehicles. With them being objective secured I need to knock them out as well as kill the squishy innards (which have bolters that hurt our list!).
I think this is what our Goliaths are intended to cover, as both versions start with anti-vehicle weaponry rather than the anti-infantry guns everyone else gets. I've been running a demolition claw to deal with transports at our shop and it has done fairly well, with the Rockgrinders keeping the stock heavy mining laser and lurking in the back where they aren't as high of a priority. The 4+ against half the vehicle damage table is also rather nice, it's kept them shooting when other vehicles would have been rendered impotent.
One thing I have been wondering though, how viable would a fully mechanized MSUGSC army be? Unlike Guard, Orks or Dark Eldar our units don't depend on their vehicles for mobility and if taken within the cult uprising detachment they aren't crippled if they take a few loses when their ride is blown out from under them since they can simply recover them when they redeploy.
Last couple of games I have been running with two Magus, one w/ crouchling and two Patriarchs. All but one rolling hive mind with my Warlord Patriarch with biomancy. Been thinking having the other patriarch with telepathy, but only if one of both magus have fished a summoning. Or depends on the army I'm facing have my Warlord roll for telepathy. Any recommendation?
No, I think your better off with more close combat units in their face and summon the shootie units that you like. For my next tournament I maybe want more troops that are objective secured (CAD). Just play the mission and drop them last turn +run move and claim. With my full infantry army I like the fact that all those graviton/melta shots are pretty much useless. But watch out for those flamers! Normally I didn't care about the enemies flamers but now I want to now where the are hiding! 5 tactical marines with (combi) flamers stepping out of a razorback burnt down my small acolyte deathstarr.
.
Where I'm running into issues is a Malestrom or ITC missions where you need to have guys on objectives on a regular basis for the progressive objectives. I think the last turn grabs aren't so hard with the amount of things that can come in and out of reserves.
What really worked me was exactly that, the land speeder storms with heavy flamers and launchers. Makes me think MSU is the way all the time.
Strat_N8 wrote: One thing I have been wondering though, how viable would a fully mechanized MSUGSC army be? Unlike Guard, Orks or Dark Eldar our units don't depend on their vehicles for mobility and if taken within the cult uprising detachment they aren't crippled if they take a few loses when their ride is blown out from under them since they can simply recover them when they redeploy.
I get the feeling it could work, but I can't see any good way to do it. A lot of the mech formations require your dudes to start the game mounted, which detracts from the flexibility of the army somewhat. I'm thinking maybe something with a Brood Cycle rather than a Cavalcade could work - that way you can either mount up or not depending on what you feel you need to do. You could probably pack quite a bit of firepower around a mounted Brood Cycle too, although I haven't really tried yet.
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Sibuna wrote: Last couple of games I have been running with two Magus, one w/ crouchling and two Patriarchs. All but one rolling hive mind with my Warlord Patriarch with biomancy. Been thinking having the other patriarch with telepathy, but only if one of both magus have fished a summoning. Or depends on the army I'm facing have my Warlord roll for telepathy. Any recommendation?
Seems like a safe bet to me, although to be honest, if you're running MSUs, you could probably skip Invisibility altogether. In an MSU army Invisibility is less beneficial than Mass Hypnosis; you tend to be running 2 or 3 units into any one of the opponent's, so Hypnosis helps limit damage to all of them at once rather than just coaxing the opponent to attack the ones he can see. If I was running a First Curse or something I'd maybe fish for Invisibility first.
I feel like the Demolition Claw is a reasonable solution if you're wanting to fully mechanize. The Rock Grinders are nice backfield and midfield control units, and tank-hunting Goliaths are actually pretty darn cost-effective. Mandatory demo charges on the Acolytes isn't ideal, but they can certainly do some damage if you get that lovely Cult Ambush 6. A Brood Cycle with 2 Demo Claws should give you all the armor you need to create a fairly threatening parking lot.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Where I'm running into issues is a Malestrom or ITC missions where you need to have guys on objectives on a regular basis for the progressive objectives. I think the last turn grabs aren't so hard with the amount of things that can come in and out of reserves.
I always try to keep 2 or 3 units in Ongoing permanently for this exact reason; you're all but guaranteed to be able to drop one on any given objective when you draw the card. Summons can help with this, but given how flexible your Summoned units are I'd try and stick to Ambushing MSUs as your objective grabbers, amnd save your Summons for kicking ass.
I'm intrigued by the idea of a summoning list. Thing is adding 3 more psychics; a patriarch at level 2, and two magus at level 2 (by including a CAD) on top of adding a 2nd mastery level to my existing patriarch is 300 points.
That 300 points is essentially another subterranean formation with 2 acolytes and 3 metamorph claw squads. Do we think that's a good trade off?
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I'm intrigued by the idea of a summoning list. Thing is adding 3 more psychics; a patriarch at level 2, and two magus at level 2 (by including a CAD) on top of adding a 2nd mastery level to my existing patriarch is 300 points.
That 300 points is essentially another subterranean formation with 2 acolytes and 3 metamorph claw squads. Do we think that's a good trade off?
Only for summoning? No... then its better to get more units. But with the Genestealer cult psychic powers + telepathy its a great toolbox for all kinds of things, and you can still summon units with the right equipment to deal with the enemies army.
Mind control a stormsurge, first turn cult ambush in combination with 4 psychic schrieks, deathstar with mass hypnosis and maybe even hallucination (result 3/4).. a lot of cool things.
You do have to make sure that the magus + patriarch are save, and that their are enough bodies to look out sir.
So now that we've been playing our army for over a month, any thoughts on where we stand in the competitive scene? We seem to be holding up well from my play testing, but that has been primarily TauDar, DoubleSurge Tau, Ravenwing and a WolfStar. Haven't had the chance to play BattleCo or Lions blade yet, anyone got some good thoughts on that? Also, any so far unexpected lists giving you trouble, like Crons, Daemons, or AdMech? I sadly haven't had the opportunity to go to a tournament yet but im getting my list (3x Flyrants and Incursion with single Subterranean Uprising) into a pretty good place in practice with other reasonably competitive players.
jifel wrote: So now that we've been playing our army for over a month, any thoughts on where we stand in the competitive scene? We seem to be holding up well from my play testing, but that has been primarily TauDar, DoubleSurge Tau, Ravenwing and a WolfStar. Haven't had the chance to play BattleCo or Lions blade yet, anyone got some good thoughts on that? Also, any so far unexpected lists giving you trouble, like Crons, Daemons, or AdMech? I sadly haven't had the opportunity to go to a tournament yet but im getting my list (3x Flyrants and Incursion with single Subterranean Uprising) into a pretty good place in practice with other reasonably competitive players.
I reckon the mech and First Curse beatstick armies are capable of putting in a decent shift, but I don't think they'll win any GTs. However, I reckon the MSU Insurrection army could do it. It has a lot going for it; mobility, killing power, surprising resilience for GEQs, psychic powers/ defences, and the ability to either Summon in anti-air units or bring some cheap Allies.
All that said, while I've played a few top-end armies from both ITC and ETC builds, I haven't seen much in the way of variety. My main opponent plays Eldar/Taudar, and I've also seen an IH Smashfether deathstar, none of which I felt overmatched against, plus I have a game against Screamerstar/ Fateweaver Daemons on Saturday and I can't see them being a huge problem. Beyond that though, it's mainly been soft-ish armies with Land Raiders and daft units like that. The Smashfether player does have a Gladius army but he rarely brings it in, but I'm going to keep pestering him until he does. I'm not sure I'd be worried about Lion's Blade - you can kill Space Marines and Space Marine vehicles all day long, and while Overwatch at full BS sucks, it's not a decisive advantage if you're charging with 2-3 units at a time.
I dunno. I'd want input from a more experienced tournament player before I called it definitive, but as far as I can see this army could be up there and challenging.
jifel wrote: So now that we've been playing our army for over a month, any thoughts on where we stand in the competitive scene? We seem to be holding up well from my play testing, but that has been primarily TauDar, DoubleSurge Tau, Ravenwing and a WolfStar. Haven't had the chance to play BattleCo or Lions blade yet, anyone got some good thoughts on that? Also, any so far unexpected lists giving you trouble, like Crons, Daemons, or AdMech? I sadly haven't had the opportunity to go to a tournament yet but im getting my list (3x Flyrants and Incursion with single Subterranean Uprising) into a pretty good place in practice with other reasonably competitive players.
I reckon the mech and First Curse beatstick armies are capable of putting in a decent shift, but I don't think they'll win any GTs. However, I reckon the MSU Insurrection army could do it. It has a lot going for it; mobility, killing power, surprising resilience for GEQs, psychic powers/ defences, and the ability to either Summon in anti-air units or bring some cheap Allies.
I agree. A Mech genestealer cult army gives the enemy to much opportunity to shoot down juicy targets. At sum point your cult ambush table results will suck and thats why you need more units to make sure at least sum get that '6'. First curse is to expensive and your better of with 20 acolyte hybrids. You can almost have 2 for the same cost.
BBAP wrote: All that said, while I've played a few top-end armies from both ITC and ETC builds, I haven't seen much in the way of variety. My main opponent plays Eldar/Taudar, and I've also seen an IH Smashfether deathstar, none of which I felt overmatched against, plus I have a game against Screamerstar/ Fateweaver Daemons on Saturday and I can't see them being a huge problem. Beyond that though, it's mainly been soft-ish armies with Land Raiders and daft units like that. The Smashfether player does have a Gladius army but he rarely brings it in, but I'm going to keep pestering him until he does. I'm not sure I'd be worried about Lion's Blade - you can kill Space Marines and Space Marine vehicles all day long, and while Overwatch at full BS sucks, it's not a decisive advantage if you're charging with 2-3 units at a time.
I dunno. I'd want input from a more experienced tournament player before I called it definitive, but as far as I can see this army could be up there and challenging.
After a lot of practise I think GSC will do very well but a lot of opponents also need that practice because the dont know how to deal with GSC... yet. You will see more flamers and when you got that match against the daemons beware of the tzeentch nova power.
I do agree with you that the hybrids are cheaper and almost as effective as genestealers for hitting power, there is a lot of merit to the toughness 4 and invulnerable save. Plus if you're running any psychic buffs, that unit gets mean fast.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I do agree with you that the hybrids are cheaper and almost as effective as genestealers for hitting power, there is a lot of merit to the toughness 4 and invulnerable save. Plus if you're running any psychic buffs, that unit gets mean fast.
True, but if the patriarch doesn't get the "6" warlord trait (choose ambush result) then you only roll 1 D6 for cult ambush. It can be very mean but it doesn't help if your possible late to the party.
I first try to get that 'choose ambush result' warlord trait (with reroll) with my patriarch
If I don't get that then I can still infiltrate him with the 20 acolyte unit (CAD/objective secured) + attach 2x magus and icon OR try to get a good result on the cult ambush table if I don't mind outflanking or appearing from my table edge.
Then I also got the Primus + 20 acolytes with subterean uprising that can roll 3xD6.
This way I got two big units that are a lot more flexible then one big genestealer unit and a better deal for the amount of points. The enemy often focus all his firepower to the unit with the characters so you still need a big unit to make sure you can keep using "look out sir", because you cannot attach a magus or iconward to the genestealer unit.
I first try to get that 'choose ambush result' warlord trait (with reroll) with my patriarch
If I don't get that then I can still infiltrate him with the 20 acolyte unit (CAD/objective secured) + attach 2x magus and icon OR try to get a good result on the cult ambush table if I don't mind outflanking or appearing from my table edge.
I like the idea of attaching the characters to the CAD acolyte unit. How is that unit getting infiltrate though? I thought only units from the Cult Insurrection got to set up in ambush (if they didn't have infiltrate already)? Or am I messing up a USR where infiltrate from the character transfers over to the unit?
You can always swap the large CAD unit to the brood cycle one, but you miss out on that tasty objective secured.
I first try to get that 'choose ambush result' warlord trait (with reroll) with my patriarch
If I don't get that then I can still infiltrate him with the 20 acolyte unit (CAD/objective secured) + attach 2x magus and icon OR try to get a good result on the cult ambush table if I don't mind outflanking or appearing from my table edge.
I like the idea of attaching the characters to the CAD acolyte unit. How is that unit getting infiltrate though? I thought only units from the Cult Insurrection got to set up in ambush (if they didn't have infiltrate already)? Or am I messing up a USR where infiltrate from the character transfers over to the unit?
You can always swap the large CAD unit to the brood cycle one, but you miss out on that tasty objective secured.
Damn your right. At first I put this unit in the Brood cycle and then I thought: Why not make it objective secured? Now I know. So yea, I will transfer this unit to the brood cycle..
I can't get into big units of Genestealers at all. They're fragile, expensive, and have no grenades - you might roll a 4 for your Warlord trait, or roll up the right biomorph on the First Curse table - but then again you might not. Plus they're S4. Claw-Morphs are much better value for points, I think. I wouldn't bother with the Void Sword on the Primus either.
Other than that it looks okay. It's not the way I'd build the army - I like to go for as many min squads as possible so there's lots of board presence, lots of targets, and lots of Cult Ambush rolls per turn - but I know other people have run big Acolyte squads with some success. The Stealers have to go though.
BBAP wrote: I can't get into big units of Genestealers at all. They're fragile, expensive, and have no grenades - you might roll a 4 for your Warlord trait, or roll up the right biomorph on the First Curse table - but then again you might not. Plus they're S4. Claw-Morphs are much better value for points, I think. I wouldn't bother with the Void Sword on the Primus either.
Other than that it looks okay. It's not the way I'd build the army - I like to go for as many min squads as possible so there's lots of board presence, lots of targets, and lots of Cult Ambush rolls per turn - but I know other people have run big Acolyte squads with some success. The Stealers have to go though.
Stealers spam is kind of the point of the list. The big issue with the stealers in the past is they couldn't get to where you wanted before they died. That is not a issue with CA Also 60 of them allows me to box in my opponent pretty well.
Can it be done cheaper with acolytes maybe. But having money to by that many models is a issue.
As for Claw-Morphs no thanks everyone is in to them but I don't see a 10 man squad as survivable in the ITC meta. Also going at the same time as your opponent is not a good idea for a unit to survive to be used next turn
shadowfinder wrote: Stealers spam is kind of the point of the list. The big issue with the stealers in the past is they couldn't get to where you wanted before they died. That is not a issue with CA Also 60 of them allows me to box in my opponent pretty well.
Cult Ambush isn't a reliable thing to build a strategy around, especially with so few units. You're far more likely to get them sitting around for a turn than you are to get them charging, and nothing kills Genestealers like sitting around waiting to charge. At best you've got a 4+ cover from Stealth. Gladius bolters will chew through that faster than I think you realise.
Can it be done cheaper with acolytes maybe. But having money to by that many models is a issue.
That is what it is, I suppose. If you're working with what you've got then fair enough. I'm proxying pretty much my entire army, although if you're going to an RTT I suppose you don't have that option.
As for Claw-Morphs no thanks everyone is in to them but I don't see a 10 man squad as survivable in the ITC meta. Also going at the same time as your opponent is not a good idea for a unit to survive to be used next turn
I don't run 10-man squads; I run 5-man squads. Seems to be working out fine so far, especially against the kind of Eldar/Taudar armies you see at ITC and Nova GTs. Survivability isn't really an issue if you have 6-8 units of them alongside 7-9 units of Acolytes and a couple of psykers for Summons. If you run them in an Insurrection you can also replenish casualties by RttSing them, and if you're RttSing frequently (which you can do with small units because they have a reduced board presence, so it's harder to trap them on the table) then they'll rarely be under-strength. You can also mitigate incoming damage using Mass Hypnosis and multi-charges; don't run a 5-man squad of anything into anything and expect a good result. 2 or 3 units at a time is the minimum. Beyond that, you can take the Morphs in Subterranean Uprisings for a 2D6 Cult Ambush roll, which you can't really do with Stealers.
But yeah. You asked for thoughts, those are mine. I think the best thing to do is just take what you've got and see how it goes.
I agree with BBAP on this. MSU seems the strongest way to run a cult.
The first curse is a nice way for existing nid players to jump into the army, but it doesn't belong in an optimised list. It's too soft to be a deathstar, plus too big and expensive compared to the other options in the codex.
Arson Fire wrote: I agree with BBAP on this. MSU seems the strongest way to run a cult.
The first curse is a nice way for existing nid players to jump into the army, but it doesn't belong in an optimised list. It's too soft to be a deathstar, plus too big and expensive compared to the other options in the codex.
I've been surprised at how well 20 genestealer hold up with a 3+ cover save or a 2+ first turn.
My experience so far has been positive using them. I won a 1000 point GT with 5 strait wins. That was with 20 genestealer being the in the Brood Cycle formation and the Sub Uprising. all the other unit where just min size unit. The genestealer where a solid unit that handled most income fire well.
Out of the 5 games I only lost the 20 man blob only one time. And that was Vs Orks.
I think at lest one 20 man squad is a good threat deterrent as well. No one want to get in to charge range of them. A lot of people are jumping on the band wagon with GSC. I except to see mirror matches often entail the new wears off the army. Genestealer beat other GSC unit hands down when fighting them. I expect there to be very few whip meta's so they go first and have the attack to wipe unit before they swing.
The army above have over 120 models. All the larger size unit have shrouded turn 1 and with so models I will be able to setup a good beta strike. I will also block off movement as I see fit as well.
MSU is a decent way of running GSC I feel. If you have a meta that has a lot of dark angle or flamer heavy. those squads will have issues doing anything.
BBAP wrote: I can't get into big units of Genestealers at all. They're fragile, expensive, and have no grenades - you might roll a 4 for your Warlord trait, or roll up the right biomorph on the First Curse table - but then again you might not. Plus they're S4. Claw-Morphs are much better value for points, I think. I wouldn't bother with the Void Sword on the Primus either.
Other than that it looks okay. It's not the way I'd build the army - I like to go for as many min squads as possible so there's lots of board presence, lots of targets, and lots of Cult Ambush rolls per turn - but I know other people have run big Acolyte squads with some success. The Stealers have to go though.
Stealers spam is kind of the point of the list. The big issue with the stealers in the past is they couldn't get to where you wanted before they died. That is not a issue with CA Also 60 of them allows me to box in my opponent pretty well.
60 genestealers in the enemies face can be devastating but if 2 or 3 genestealer squads roll a 1 or 2 on the cult ambush table its game over man.
Can it be done cheaper with acolytes maybe. But having money to by that many models is a issue.
I bought 1 box acolytes/metamorphs and made sum molds. In combination with sum genestealer bits I got a full GSC army for only 80/100 dollar. Its still a lot of work but worth the effort.
shogun wrote: I bought 1 box acolytes/metamorphs and made sum molds. In combination with sum genestealer bits I got a full GSC army for only 80/100 dollar. Its still a lot of work but worth the effort.
shogun wrote: I bought 1 box acolytes/metamorphs and made sum molds. In combination with sum genestealer bits I got a full GSC army for only 80/100 dollar. Its still a lot of work but worth the effort.
JNAProductions wrote: I'm just saying, you can't say "It's cheap if you do illegal things!"
It's also cheap if you steal the boxes, for instance.
I can say it, and then its up to people what the do with that.
@shadowfinder: You can also steal the boxes, so thats another tip right their.
I want to be mad at you. But gosh-darn did that make me laugh.
I am not mad when I go to a tournament and a guy borrowed 5 imperial knights from his warhammerclub-buddy and get more painting points then me. I'am also not mad at the guy who made 7 riptides out of Japanese robot toys and get great points for conversions. But the also cannot be mad at me because at least I did a lot of work to make and paint this. If I weren't doing this then i would have stopped with 40k two years ago because I'am not going to buy a 400 dollar army to find out its obsolete when the next codex/formation hits the shelfs. Back on topic...
JNAProductions wrote: I'm just saying, you can't say "It's cheap if you do illegal things!"
It's also cheap if you steal the boxes, for instance.
I can say it, and then its up to people what the do with that.
@shadowfinder: You can also steal the boxes, so thats another tip right their.
What? are you talking about??
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel Genestealer are a go big or go home unit. Will see how they work out.
I will be testing 58 of them at a RTT this weekend. I have over 120 models in a in the list.. It has two of the First curse units and a unit of 18 in the BC. So will be giving it a try.
Small units I feel are not worth it. Big unit of them make them a threat giving you board control in that area for the most part.
I feel a lot of people have jumped on the GSC band wagon with a focus on the Meta's and acolytes. I feel genestealer are a good counter to those GSC armies that have gone with MSU format.
The RRT I am going I know 2 other guys that are bring them in some form or another. One guys running them with 5 Flyrants but no Genestealer. Most people taking BC are considering them a tax for the Cult Insurrection.
With a possible strength 6 on the charge they can much most units just fine. The number of attacks and ability to hit on 3's vs most units makes them truly scary. I know my thunder wolf units are scared of coming close to them. Even my wulfen units will not survive very well vs them.
My space wolves are not scared of 5 man squads charging them with wulfen with i5 claws and axe's on the charge swing before they can. But 15 to 20 man genestealer units are another issue.
shadowfinder wrote: My space wolves are not scared of 5 man squads charging them with wulfen with i5 claws and axe's on the charge swing before they can. But 15 to 20 man genestealer units are another issue.
It's not that genestealers are not good in close combat, getting there is the problem. In your example you compare 15/20 genestealers with a bunch of small 5 unit squads but it doesn't work like that.
20 acolytes with 2 rock saws and a magus from the subterean uprising got 3d6 for cult ambush. It may not perform the same (still pretty close)but at least this squad got a good chance of getting there. The also got grenades and the possibility to decrease the enemy unit Initiative with mass hypnosis. Thunderwolfs + storm shields in cover will always hurt genestealers first.
Has anyone faced riptides or stormsurges with the cult yet? I'd wonder how the MSU would fair against them. Do they die to overwatch, or get beaten in CC against these big critters? I imagine riptide wing with sms could be a fairly rough match up
DoomMouse wrote: Has anyone faced riptides or stormsurges with the cult yet? I'd wonder how the MSU would fair against them. Do they die to overwatch, or get beaten in CC against these big critters? I imagine riptide wing with sms could be a fairly rough match up
Not yet, but the should be in a lot of trouble I tell you that. Even when GSC don't get first turn its hard for the Tau to deal with all these units that infiltrate within 3/6 inch.h ere will be more kroot around for shielding these days...
shadowfinder wrote: I feel a lot of people have jumped on the GSC band wagon with a focus on the Meta's and acolytes. I feel genestealer are a good counter to those GSC armies that have gone with MSU format.
I don't think they are.
Don't get me wrong, if you face an opponent playing MSU Morphs that hasn't prepared for Stealers you'll probably come out on top, because high-I CC-capable armies are a difficult match-up for MSU Morphs. Thing is, properly built MSU Morphs are pretty balanced as armies go, so they have loads of ways to deal with these kinds of opponents. Not all of these tactics are immediately obvious, and even when you figure them out you still need practise using them effectively, but they're available to anyone using an MSU Morph army and are highly effective. Mass Hypnosis is always useful, but against anyone relying on striking first to kill your dudes it can be decisive. Combining Hypnosis with Invisible Fearless Neophyte mobs is a good way to lock down deathstars that can't get out of combat, and because your army is MSU you're not crippling yourself to do it. Note that 10 Whip-Morphs aren't an effective answer to The First Curse - Whip-Morphs are for killing stuff like Bike Command Squads, small elite units that rely on quality rather than quantity to do their damage and thus suffer if they lose units prior to their Initiative step, or Wraithknights, which can limit the amount of damage they receive at I4 by killing a couple of dudes at I5. Run them into 20 Genestealers and they'll kill maybe half of them - then you lose the Morphs at I6.
You seem to think that MSUGSC lists work by running 5-man units into the opponent one unit at a time. That's not how it is at all. You can still get large numbers of models into a single combat with an MSU Morphs army - the difference is that I'm rolling 4 dice for my "blob" rather than just one, and I'm only ever risking 5 models at a time in any situation. Take Overwatch, for example; I think Riptide Wings get something like 24 Burst Cannon shots and 12 S5 Smart Missiles if they're all within 6" of one another (which they generally are). If they fire that at your Genestealers you could lose half of them. I'm not saying you will, but it's possible. If they fire that at my 4x5 Acolyte/Claw-Morph mobs I'll lose a maximum of 5 models no matter what. Maledictions like Terrify or Mass Hypnosis also affect a maximum of 5 models; blessings and buffs do too, but these units don't need buffs to do what they do.
tl;dr - Genestealer spam is not an easy match-up for MSU Morph armies, but it's not the hard counter you seem to think it is.
Not yet, but the should be in a lot of trouble I tell you that. Even when GSC don't get first turn its hard for the Tau to deal with all these units that infiltrate within 3/6 inch.
Is that true? I haven't played with GSC as Tau or vice-versa, but I can tell you that when playing Tau, I typically have a whole lot of intercepting smart missiles. Those are very bad for GSC, to say the least. If you're trying to get in my face, you can count on 5-6 of your MSU getting mostly wiped immediately. Chances are good that accounts for all the 6's you rolled on the Ambush table.
On the other hand, if GSC get the first turn and rattle off a couple 6's, I have to imagine you could easily swamp the big guns. The immediate charges are really the only thing concerning for Tau. Even with massive MSU, you'd have to get fairly lucky with your Ambush rolls to mount a credible threat on any turn other than the first.
I played against with a weird GSC, Ork, and flyrant army.
(I only had deathwatch overkill okay!)
I had 60 orks in 2 big units and 2 10 man units with two warbosses
one full subterranean assault with aberrants included
and two flyrants with muculids and a regular genestealer unit.
Played against Riptide wing, two nemesis dreadknights and some walking greyknights, and an imperial knight.
We had a longways deployment set up.
I rolled infiltrate with my orks and put them all 18 inches away from his army except for one ten man unit to hold a back field objective.
I deployed my GSC stuff behind his riptide wing and got an acolyte and a metamorph unit that could assault. So basically his army had a horde of GSC behind it, a bunch of orks in front of it.
He failed to seize so charged one of his riptides. I lost the first unit to overwatch, the second unit managed two win combat and the riptide was run down.
One of my warbosses went ham that game and killed a nemesis dread knight AND an imperial knight while living to the end of the game. My GSC killed his random grey knight librarian and troop unit.
The part that made me want to write this though, the riptides are mean. I killed one before it could shoot and still lost a unit to it. The other two killed my aberrants, and three other units the next turn. Basically anything they looked at funny. Eventually I managed to get into combat with my (regular) genestealers, a primus, an acolyte squad, and a metamorph squad. Fearless is super important because I failed my fear check, then he hit on threes, killed on two, I would do nothing in return, and immediately got chased off after losing most of a unit to overwatch.
They're absolutely brutal to fight. You need fearless and honestly, I'm considering aberrants because they're the only thing that is reasonably tough against them. The problem is that even when you finally get to the fight, if they have a 3+ invul and fnp, there is a good chance you won't do anything and if your not fearless, you're in trouble. It was very lucky that I won that first combat and I would not count on that happening again.
The scenarios
no bubble wrap, GSC going first- lose one unit to overwatch- kill riptides
bubble wrap, GSC going first - lose one unit to overwatch- kill bubble wrap-hail fire, smart missile overload- lose 6 units- lose 1 unit to overwatch- hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides
no bubble wrap-GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides
bubble wrap - GSC going second- lose 6 units(all the ones who can charge)- lose 3 more to regular shooting- lose one unit to overwatch and kill bubble wrap, lose 1 more to overwatch-hopefully enough left over to still kill riptides
The problem is that even with no bubble wrap, if they seize on you, tau just win, losing SIX units is pretty devastating, even for a MSU heavy army like GSC. You also have to account for movement. They could blow away enough units that you can't even charge the next turn, especially with 32 mm bases on everyone.
DoomMouse wrote: Has anyone faced riptides or stormsurges with the cult yet? I'd wonder how the MSU would fair against them. Do they die to overwatch, or get beaten in CC against these big critters? I imagine riptide wing with sms could be a fairly rough match up
Not with my GSC, but I played my Wolves/ Sisters against Taudar with a Skathach and a Riptide Wing the other day, and in all honesty I don't see Tau being a much more difficult match-up than Scatbike Eldar - that is to say, they're beatable, but it's not likely to be an easy game. Sure the Suits can shred your dudes, but your dudes can shred the Suits too, and unlike most other CC goons you're not walking across the table for three turns to reach them. They Overwatch a maximum of 5 mutants to death, then whatever's left piles in and shreds them.
Stormsurges may be a different kettle of fish - I've never seen one before so I have no idea what they can do.
Looking through BoLS army list compendium I think the toughest match-up would probably be the dude with the White Scars Gladius and the Servo-Skull Inquisitor, depending on how you play Servo-Skulls with respect to Cult Ambush. I'm tempted to say they affect Cult Ambush the same way they do regular Infiltrate, and in that scenario you've got a large army (8 tanks, a Drop Pod, a Bike Command Squad, a Culexus Assassin, plus 45-50 Marines) that can essentially snatch board control out from under your nose before the game even starts and just rule midfield wholesale with their bolters. Even without the Servo Skulls, he's still rocking a hell of a lot of stuff for an MEQ army. The GSC have no trouble killing multiple units per turn but even still I think MSU Morphs might struggle to play the mission **and** kill enough of his units to really disrupt his game. I'm not sure how you'd go about beating that. You can't pick him to pieces like you could with Eldar, because he can just drive bolters up to you and blow you up. Can't really rely on the usual Cult Ambush carousel because once something deploys, the likelihood is it'll end up trapped on the table by Rhino hulls. Can't rely on Morale or Sweeping because Spice Maroons don't Sweep and they auto-pass regroup tests. Even your psykers aren't reliable because of the Culexus. It's a toughie alright.
Not yet, but the should be in a lot of trouble I tell you that. Even when GSC don't get first turn its hard for the Tau to deal with all these units that infiltrate within 3/6 inch.
Is that true? I haven't played with GSC as Tau or vice-versa, but I can tell you that when playing Tau, I typically have a whole lot of intercepting smart missiles. Those are very bad for GSC, to say the least. If you're trying to get in my face, you can count on 5-6 of your MSU getting mostly wiped immediately. Chances are good that accounts for all the 6's you rolled on the Ambush table.
For me, "a lot" typically means at least 4-5 things with smart missiles (Broadsides, Riptides, Stormsurges, mainly) but probably more like 6-9 plus whatever else has an early warning override. A single unbuffed SMS will kill 3 GSC dudes, so at the very best, you're looking at 2 units completely wiped or 3-4 neutered. Below is the Tau list I've been playing most recently, for reference. you'll note that while not short on interceptor in general, it doesn't have quite as many SMS as I usually run.
MilkmanAl wrote: For me, "a lot" typically means at least 4-5 things with smart missiles (Broadsides, Riptides, Stormsurges, mainly) but probably more like 6-9 plus whatever else has an early warning override. A single unbuffed SMS will kill 3 GSC dudes, so at the very best, you're looking at 2 units completely wiped or 3-4 neutered.
So, worst case scenario, in an extreme tailored list rolling all 6s, I'm looking at like, 50 dead Ambushers, with an average of 30-odd, and you can't use the SMS again in your next shooting phase. I think I could probably work around that, to be honest - it wouldn't be easy, but I don't think this is a hard counter to MSU Morphs. Might mess up Stealer-spam pretty badly though, especially if that Stormsurge lives long enough to Stomp them.
So, worst case scenario, in an extreme tailored list rolling all 6s, I'm looking at like, 50 dead Ambushers, with an average of 30-odd, and you can't use the SMS again in your next shooting phase. I think I could probably work around that, to be honest - it wouldn't be easy, but I don't think this is a hard counter to MSU Morphs. Might mess up Stealer-spam pretty badly though, especially if that Stormsurge lives long enough to Stomp them.
Something like that, yeah. The issue is that the high-yield missile pods will also each wipe a unit, so in a sense, intercepting sort of lets each Broadside split its own fire. The intercepting itself isn't an insurmountable assault, but it'll definitely hurt a lot. Big Tau units are sitting ducks for pretty much anything GSC has to offer outside of Neophytes, but 2-3 dudes isn't going to cut it, even against Crisis Suits. You'll have to be crafty with the guys you're planning on getting into combat and double/triple up on whatever you're aiming to take down.
Also, does the SMS need LoS to Intercept stuff?
Indeed it does not. Therein lies the hurt.
Overall, I don't think intercepting Tau is a hard counter to GSC, but it's definitely a really difficult match. Perhaps it's trite to say for GSC, but if you manage to get a strong first turn, you're in excellent shape. Tau are incredibly bad at close combat, so you'll rapidly sweep away whatever you get in contact with. Otherwise, you're going to be chasing around a (usually) very mobile force that has the firepower to pick off numerous units per turn. You'll really have to get your unit rotations and placement right to prevent interceptor from eviscerating you, too.
See, that's what I was thinking as well. Interceptor says that the shooting attack can be made against any unit "within line of sight", which suggests the unit has to be able to see what it's shooting at even if the weapon normally wouldn't need LoS to fire.
Now all you need to do is find some way to hide 60 Hybrids behind a single Riptide/ Stormsurge for a full turn and you're golden.
shadowfinder wrote: I feel a lot of people have jumped on the GSC band wagon with a focus on the Meta's and acolytes. I feel genestealer are a good counter to those GSC armies that have gone with MSU format.
I don't think they are.
Don't get me wrong, if you face an opponent playing MSU Morphs that hasn't prepared for Stealers you'll probably come out on top, because high-I CC-capable armies are a difficult match-up for MSU Morphs. Thing is, properly built MSU Morphs are pretty balanced as armies go, so they have loads of ways to deal with these kinds of opponents. Not all of these tactics are immediately obvious, and even when you figure them out you still need practise using them effectively, but they're available to anyone using an MSU Morph army and are highly effective. Mass Hypnosis is always useful, but against anyone relying on striking first to kill your dudes it can be decisive. Combining Hypnosis with Invisible Fearless Neophyte mobs is a good way to lock down deathstars that can't get out of combat, and because your army is MSU you're not crippling yourself to do it. Note that 10 Whip-Morphs aren't an effective answer to The First Curse - Whip-Morphs are for killing stuff like Bike Command Squads, small elite units that rely on quality rather than quantity to do their damage and thus suffer if they lose units prior to their Initiative step, or Wraithknights, which can limit the amount of damage they receive at I4 by killing a couple of dudes at I5. Run them into 20 Genestealers and they'll kill maybe half of them - then you lose the Morphs at I6.
You seem to think that MSUGSC lists work by running 5-man units into the opponent one unit at a time. That's not how it is at all. You can still get large numbers of models into a single combat with an MSU Morphs army - the difference is that I'm rolling 4 dice for my "blob" rather than just one, and I'm only ever risking 5 models at a time in any situation. Take Overwatch, for example; I think Riptide Wings get something like 24 Burst Cannon shots and 12 S5 Smart Missiles if they're all within 6" of one another (which they generally are). If they fire that at your Genestealers you could lose half of them. I'm not saying you will, but it's possible. If they fire that at my 4x5 Acolyte/Claw-Morph mobs I'll lose a maximum of 5 models no matter what. Maledictions like Terrify or Mass Hypnosis also affect a maximum of 5 models; blessings and buffs do too, but these units don't need buffs to do what they do.
tl;dr - Genestealer spam is not an easy match-up for MSU Morph armies, but it's not the hard counter you seem to think it is.
You seam to think that powers are the equalizer in dealing with everything. You first have to get to them and be in a areas to use them. You suggestion of the power can be added to the Genestealer to make them just as nasty as the units you are saying will be using on them.
Relying on them makes for a big issue when you don't get them off. As for SUb Uprising you have to have units that can take advantage of it and two or three 5 man squads can are not getting ride of a large unit.
As for overwatch a large can take the losses and still whip out said units. You example with riptide have the them killing half a 20 man unit.? your gig off averages of the damages the put out but you are not taking in to the possible saves they have vs it.
As for the 5 units charging you have a likely hood of losing 2 of the units not jut 5 unit. As the riptides will fire on different units not all on one unit. Supporting fire for Tau lets them pick the unit they want to fire the supporting unit at even if the first is locked in to combat.
shadowfinder wrote: You seam to think that powers are the equalizer in dealing with everything. You first have to get to them
Mass Hypnosis is the Primaris power for Broodmind. It's a given.
and be in a areas to use them.
24" range. Your Stealers are coming to me.
You suggestion of the power can be added to the Genestealer to make them just as nasty as the units you are saying will be using on them.
That's where you're wrong. I can Hypnotise 20 Genestealers at a time. You can only Hypnotise 5 of my dudes per cast.
Relying on them makes for a big issue when you don't get them off.
Hypnosis is a 1-dice power. I have 10+d6 dice. You might Deny it once or twice, but I can cast it 5 times.
As for SUb Uprising you have to have units that can take advantage of it and two or three 5 man squads can are not getting ride of a large unit.
5 man squads do plenty of killing if you field them as units of 10-30 models instead of running them like you seem to think I di. Even the 5-man units will kill plenty, they're just too fragile to use alone.
As for overwatch a large can take the losses and still whip out said units
The same principle applies to MSU Morph mobs, except a single Overwatch is going to kill 5 models max, so they don't take large losses at all.
You example with riptide have the them killing half a 20 man unit.? your gig off averages of the damages the put out but you are not taking in to the possible saves they have vs it. As for the 5 units charging you have a likely hood of losing 2 of the units not jut 5 unit. As the riptides will fire on different units not all on one unit. Supporting fire for Tau lets them pick the unit they want to fire the supporting unit at even if the first is locked in to combat.
I'm not going off averages. I'm going by extremes. A Ripetide Wing won't kill 10 Stealers on Overwatch. It won't kill 3x5 Morphs/Acolytes either. In either case you hit with enough force to kill a Riptide in one, maybe two assault phases.
Thing is, even if I'm wrong about how many models I'm risking to Overwatch, going by averages I lose roughly as many as you do give or take - but I get more back when I RttS. I'm losing 5 max to Overwatch anywhere else, and I'm paying a lot less for the ones I do lose.
At the end of the day though, it's your army. You run it however you want. I'm not saying Stealer-spam is a bad list, just that it's not the most efficient or powerful build you can bring from the Codex, and I think you're going to struggle against armies that MSU Morphs would handle easily.
I'm a big player of Tau and am already a fan of SMS. When they use their nova power to get twice as many secondary weapon shots, it gets brutal.
What Tau players are not doing right now is bubble wrapping. They are mainly bringing all of the big suit toys and the minimum of the troops.
GSC will change that. They'll need to start bubble wrapping things with kroot. Also there is a meltabomb point wargear option that allows them to fire overwatch at BS2. With twin-link, that will make things more difficult.
Not only am I excited about playing GSC, I'm hoping it tones down the super units and Godzilla lists since it can punish those units with the right rolls.
Tyran wrote: Tau has the tools to utterly destroy GSC. But at least in competitive games, Tau lists are unlikely to be optimized against GSC.
Maybe with some very specific list-tailoring, but even then...
If the GSC goes first its pretty much done. Even when the GSC units infiltrate with the cult ambush rule and give the Tau a full round of shooting its still going to be hard for Tau to remove/stop each and every unit/model thats within charge range. If 3 acolytes get in close combat with a riptide, the could chase him of the board with a few rending attacks.
Also don't forget that GSC units that got a 5 result on cult ambush can get a free round of shooting during that deployment. It's a great way to take out a few markerlight drones to stop the ignore cover bonus, or punch a hole in the kroot bubblewrap.
Tau can cripple 4 to 8 units a turn easy. With SMS and buffmander they can cripple MSU armies quickly. Without list-tailoring the can be quite the force if they go first. Most list are lacking bubble rap but others use reserve trick to get around going second to get to shoot you first.
shadowfinder wrote: Most list are lacking bubble rap but others use reserve trick to get around going second to get to shoot you first.
I'm not seeing how that works. I can whip more or less everything bar my Neophyte blobs back into Ongoing Reserve during my own turn 2, so I can seize the initiative back. You also get -1 to your reserve rolls from the Cult Insurrection Detachment bonus, and I don't think coming in piecemeal is a good idea against Cult Ambush. Tau can kill 50, 60 models a turn if all their dudes are on the table and in position to fire - anything less cuts down the number of models I lose to Interceptor, and hence increases the number of Rending attacks your dudes will eat.
I also don't think bubblewrap is necessarily a good idea against Cult Ambush. Taking it in the first place limits your firepower (which means more of my models survive your Interceptor), trying to use it to fend off Cult Ambushes limits your mobility (any 6s I roll allow me to place my dudes within 3" of enemy models, so your army needs to be stacked on top of one another to stop me getting around the bubblewrap), and Neophytes will blow up Kroot min squads with little trouble. If you take big squads I can probably "hide" dudes in combat with them for a turn or two, then run out and munch the Suits once the birdmen are dealt with.
Tau are very good vs GSC
No doubt - but it's not an auto-win. The Cults are still plenty capable of messing up a Tau army quite badly. It'd be a tough game on both sides. I think that's the consensus here.
shadowfinder wrote: Most list are lacking bubble rap but others use reserve trick to get around going second to get to shoot you first.
I'm not seeing how that works. I can whip more or less everything bar my Neophyte blobs back into Ongoing Reserve during my own turn 2, so I can seize the initiative back. You also get -1 to your reserve rolls from the Cult Insurrection Detachment bonus, and I don't think coming in piecemeal is a good idea against Cult Ambush. Tau can kill 50, 60 models a turn if all their dudes are on the table and in position to fire - anything less cuts down the number of models I lose to Interceptor, and hence increases the number of Rending attacks your dudes will eat.
I also don't think bubblewrap is necessarily a good idea against Cult Ambush. Taking it in the first place limits your firepower (which means more of my models survive your Interceptor), trying to use it to fend off Cult Ambushes limits your mobility (any 6s I roll allow me to place my dudes within 3" of enemy models, so your army needs to be stacked on top of one another to stop me getting around the bubblewrap), and Neophytes will blow up Kroot min squads with little trouble. If you take big squads I can probably "hide" dudes in combat with them for a turn or two, then run out and munch the Suits once the birdmen are dealt with.
Tau are very good vs GSC
No doubt - but it's not an auto-win. The Cults are still plenty capable of messing up a Tau army quite badly. It'd be a tough game on both sides. I think that's the consensus here.
I have two guy in my area that run a formation that if you kill unit from it all reserves come in no dice roll needed. So riptides broadside and suits all come in no issues. So -1 to reserve rolls doesn't help as the bypass it. It can be quite nasty in it's own right.
You don't bubble rap your whole army only the parts needed. It is quite easy to block of a area and then make the inside impossible to place a 5 man squad in too. Kroot are cheap and have decent shooting and are decent in combat. They can take 5 man unit with no issues. Bubble rap is not done in MIN sized units it is done in 15 to 20 man units. I don't see how Neophyte are going to blow up the kroot squads.
The thing is right now we don't see bubble rap in tournament very often. In IG or renegades. We see it in large Deathstars like Bark-Star with 45+ wolves. the wolves bubble rap the IC inside so to speak.
With renegades zombies are very effective and will keep you from getting in to combat effectively.
Back to Tau they only need a bubble rap to last a few turns to be able to wedel down GSC units. I am not saying that Tau are a auto lose. They are a very hard match up. Much harder then many of the other armies.
I think I am not understanding how you are approaching the game as it seam to be very different approach with the same army. Which is a good thing, means we have a good Codex .Do you have a Army list so I can see you play style.?
1410pts. 440pts to play with. With this base, you dump what you need to in reserve (generally the Stealers and CAD Acolytes, plus whatever else I think I can live without for a few turns) and deploy everything else as needs be - generally the Magus and Iconward with one blob of Neophytes, Warlord with the other for wounds, CAD Patriarchs with Cycle units (although I don't like that - people love to shoot at Patriarchs and I've had a couple of turn 1 close calls even despite Shrouding). Turn one you either hit stuff with anything that can charge and RttS with everything else, or if that's not a good idea you RttS as much as possible. If I can get casts off I'll leave 4-6 Warp Charges on the table - if not I'll put my psykers in Ongoing Reserve and just start casting on turn 2.
Doing it this way ensures you're always going to have stuff coming in from Ambush, and you've got so many dice to roll you're guaranteed a 6 or three. You're also guaranteed several 1s, a few awkward 2s, and a couple of 5s that may or may not be useful; anything that lands out of position gets shoved in a corner ready to RttS and try again next turn. I tend to be RttSing with at least 3 units on every turn bar turn 5, in which case I'll only RttS stuff that's in a really, really bad position.
EDIT: I should probably point out that in the eight or so games I've played with this army list, I've never once gone first. Not once. I have an idea how it'd work going first, but I've never had a chance to try it out.
You can fill that 440pts out with various different things, though I like to try and bring in anti-air stuff or anti-armour shooting if I can get it, preferably stuff tough enough to survive turn 1 on its own, which gives me leeway to RttS my entire GSC contingent if I feel like it. A couple of things I've tried so far:
ITC Comp:
- Two Flyrants with TL Devourer/ Shock grubs and 2 Mucolids. You need to drop a Claw-Morph squad and The Crouchling to fit these in, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't do it again. I ran them against a Scatbike Eldar army and while they weren't awful, I just didn't feel like they did enough to justify the reshuffle. The Flyrants are surprisingly fragile too - 480pts is a lot to ask for 2x4 wounds, even on a flyer, and Grav spam will blow them up no problem at all. Shadow in the Warp was a pain as well. One of the Mucolids did manage to blow up a Scatbike unit all by itself though, which was amusing.
- CCS and Infantry Platoons, all with Flakk MLs. Wasn't impressed with this one either. The BS3 shooting just isn't good enough to be reliable with such a small contingent - but I'm not willing to drop any of my GSC units (which are good) to include more Guard units (which are bad). Played it against a mech Wolves army with an IK, where it performed poorly, and a shooty Eldar army, where it performed poorly and then died. In both games my Acolytes killed more vehicles than the Missile Launchers did.
- Pask Vanquisher with a Lascannon and HB Sponsons, Veterans with a Missile Launcher, Vendetta. Drop a unit of Claw-Morphs and you can fit all this in. Ran this against Scatbike/ Wraithknight Eldar and mech Wolves with an Imperial Knight (the one with the Battlecannon and chainsword), and it did pretty well against both. The Pask Vanquisher is a really nasty piece of kit, tough as old boots and capable of dishing out a lot of damage. It's cheaper and sturdier than a single Flyrant too. The veterans died before they could fire a shot against the Eldar and did nothing at all against the Wolves. The Vendetta was complete ass.
ETC Comp:
- Daemons Allied (Fateweaver, Horrors, Screamers, Tzeentch DP). The idea here was max Warp Dice, and I was so sure it would work that I dropped some GSC stuff to fit it all in. I was wrong. It was a complete disaster. Just an unmitigated fail-fest. I ran it against an Ultramarines army with lots of grav, melta and bikes, which you'd think it'd do well against, but it's just too much. There's far too much going on, and because both halves of the army want to be in CC it's way too difficult to keep them out of Come The Apocalypse range of one another. I did manage to swap the Horrors for a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster though, which was funny - not sure it's legal to give Horrors Malefic powers anymore, but he died to Gravs before he could do anything so we didn't query it too closely.
- Coteaz, OM Inquisitor with Servo Skulls, 2 Acolytes, 1 Psyker, Psyback, Culexus Assassin. I played this against a pretty sub-optimal Wolves army (Fenrisian Wolf "deathstar" with Celestine and Canis, Wulfen in a Stormwolf, plus a few other daft units and a Culexus Assassin), but even at that it was quite handy. The "allied" contingent has a really small footprint so Come The Apocalypse wasn't an issue - your dudes tend to want to be near your psykers, who want to be far away from the Culexus, who is generally fine running around on his own forcing enemy psykers to move, while the Psyback can just sit in a corner far away from everything and plink away until it dies. If you don't feel you need Coteaz's Warp Charges you can also use it as a deathride. The Servo Skulls are more a hindrance than a help - they're "enemy" Skulls, so your dudes can't Ambush within 12" of them, which is annoying, although you can just stick them all behind the Psyback and Infiltrate everywhere else. I can see them being extremely useful against the likes of White Scars though - deploy them across the middle of the board and you take away his Scout move at the cost of access to the mid-board for your own units.
One army I'd quite like to try allying with is Necrons, although I don't really know any Necrons players and I doubt I could get enough models together to proxy them.
Did a test-game against a Bark star. Bark-star got first turn but i used my 20 acolyte unit + primus to deploy outside 3 inch (result 6). it died, but that also means it couldn't hit and run and had to settle for a consolidate move. Already got my next screen neophytes behind them but I lost a few because of cleansing flame. During my psychic phase I summoned a big unit of 20 neophytes and deployed them 6 inch outside the bark-star and let them run in the shooting phase to close the gap. I kept doing this for another 2 turns and the barkstar was only able to move 6 inch a turn. During these turns I kept grabbing Tactical objectives.
Next time I am going to keep my 2 CAD acolyte units in reserve so that I could possible claim an objective with objective secured.
I don't want to fight a barkstar with 'purge the alien'/killpoints mission...jeez.. Only way to win that is hoping you go first and that you got a few 6 results and kill a lot of dogs first turn with mass hypnoses! But then you still got to kill them completely! Hard nut to crack..
Question: if you attack the barkstar form all angles its hard for it to 'hit and run' without a model being within 1 inch of an enemy model(in close combat), right?
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BBAP wrote: This is the "base" army list I'm working around at 1850pts:
I believe the ITC format does only allow a single "double/same" formation so you cannot have 2x subterean uprising + 2 x lords of the cult. And you need at least one big unit for your characters, believe me.
I have gotten about 30 games in so far with the GSC, 1 major GT and two RTT's it has been fairing well. What i have noticed that it is important to have fearless bubbles to mitigate losing combats as it will happen. it's interesting to see what other people are running. The army does better in two functions, One having mass amounts of acolytes and metomorphs cycling in and out of reserves and charging from angles and picking on units that hide around the board. Two being having large units of neophytes that are fearless to tie down units and lock them in place by blocking with other small 5 man units. this is not easy to pull off and takes a lot of practice but if done right the list can take on just about anything.
shadowfinder wrote: I have two guy in my area that run a formation that if you kill unit from it all reserves come in no dice roll needed. So riptides broadside and suits all come in no issues. So -1 to reserve rolls doesn't help as the bypass it.
But if I'm killing units from the Formation then my Ambush has already landed, his army wasn't on the table to stop it, and he's lost a portion of his firepower. I can live with that.
You don't bubble rap your whole army only the parts needed
... which in this case would be the Riptides, Stormsurge and Crisis Suits. I'm not going to bother charging Strike Teaks until those Suits are dead.
It is quite easy to block of a area and then make the inside impossible to place a 5 man squad in too.
These aren't Drop Pods I'm placing; they're 28mm dudes. Even supposing you manage it you have to keep your Suits within the bubblewrap or it doesn't work. That limits your mobility, which is a bad thing.
Kroot are cheap and have decent shooting and are decent in combat. They can take 5 man unit with no issues.
Kroot are dreadful in combat. They get 1 attack each, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. 10 Carnivores and 10 Hounds would struggle to kill 5 Acolytes - not that I'd ever charge that unit with just 5 dudes, but if I did I'd probably kill it. If it charged me... I'd ask why you're pulling your bubblewrap out of position to try and kill 5 Acolytes.
I also think you're seriously underestmating the damage these 5 man squads can do. You realise Acolytes are just Genestealers with WS4 I4 and Grenades, right? They get 4 attacks each on the charge (2 base, +1 pistol & CCW, +1 charge bonus), just like Stealers do, and they Rend, again like Stealers do. The Claw-Morphs likewise, except they're S6.
Bubble rap is not done in MIN sized units it is done in 15 to 20 man units. I don't see how Neophyte are going to blow up the kroot squads.
Not if they're 20 models each, but I don't need to blow them all up in that case. I just need to clear a path through the bubblewrap, or kill enough models to force a Leadership test - that'll shift them too.
The reason Tau tournament lists contain no bubblewrap isn't (just) because people want to spam Riptides. It's because Kroot suck and are overcosted.
Did a test-game against a Bark star. Bark-star got first turn but i used my 20 acolyte unit + primus to deploy outside 3 inch (result 6). it died, but that also means it couldn't hit and run and had to settle for a consolidate move. Already got my next screen neophytes behind them but I lost a few because of cleansing flame. During my psychic phase I summoned a big unit of 20 neophytes and deployed them 6 inch outside the bark-star and let them run in the shooting phase to close the gap. I kept doing this for another 2 turns and the barkstar was only able to move 6 inch a turn. During these turns I kept grabbing Tactical objectives.
I played an IH deathstar a few weeks ago and it went more or less like that - killed his entire army bar the deathstar and just kept harassing and harassing until I eventually pinned it in a corner behind a sea of bodies. Problem is it was only a 2-objective game and I couldn't get the deathstar off the other objective, so I ended up tying that. Killed a fair few dudes from the unit though, including the Apothecary and a couple of Librarians, but it cost me a helluva lot of dudes.
Question: if you attack the barkstar form all angles its hard for it to 'hit and run' without a model being within 1 inch of an enemy model(in close combat), right?
Yeah, but they move like 3D6" or something and ignore all models locked in combat so it's not that hard. What I'd want to do is surround the combat with a ring of Neophytes so it can't HnR anywhere; that would be really difficult against 45 dogs, but against Smasfether Command Squads and suchlike it'd probably work.
I believe the ITC format does only allow a single "double/same" formation so you cannot have 2x subterean uprising + 2 x lords of the cult. And you need at least one big unit for your characters, believe me.
See, this is why I hate comp. I get the idea behind it, trying to limit the amount of power-spam armies and encourage variety, but it rarely works, and in cases like this it actively gimps the army. I either ditch some of my psychic dice, or I ditch some of my most effective units. Ho hum.
Yeah, but they move like 3D6" or something and ignore all models locked in combat so it's not that hard. What I'd want to do is surround the combat with a ring of Neophytes so it can't HnR anywhere; that would be really difficult against 45 dogs, but against Smasfether Command Squads and suchlike it'd probably work.
The do ignore models in close combat for moving but the cant end their movement within 1 inch of an enemy model thats in close combat. Its the enemy models outside close combat the can ignore/ move 1 inch away from them.
I believe the ITC format does only allow a single "double/same" formation so you cannot have 2x subterean uprising + 2 x lords of the cult. And you need at least one big unit for your characters, believe me.
See, this is why I hate comp. I get the idea behind it, trying to limit the amount of power-spam armies and encourage variety, but it rarely works, and in cases like this it actively gimps the army. I either ditch some of my psychic dice, or I ditch some of my most effective units. Ho hum.
I also got an ITC-format tournament coming up and I really wanted to play with 4 psykers (2 magus + 2 patriarch) but it sucks that I got to drop one of them. I don't want to play 'first curse' or 'broodcoven' but I'am considering 'the doting throng'
I'am waiting for the missions format and then we will see.
Actually, ITC limits you to no more than two of the same formation, but Lotds of the Cult is not a formation. So while you can take only two maximum SubUprising, Lords of the Cult is just an option in a multiple formation detachment, not a formation itself, and therefore can have multiples taken.
So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with? Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
BBAP wrote:I get the feeling it could work, but I can't see any good way to do it. A lot of the mech formations require your dudes to start the game mounted, which detracts from the flexibility of the army somewhat. I'm thinking maybe something with a Brood Cycle rather than a Cavalcade could work - that way you can either mount up or not depending on what you feel you need to do. You could probably pack quite a bit of firepower around a mounted Brood Cycle too, although I haven't really tried yet.
I'd probably go with a brood cycle for the industrial theme, though I think the Cavalcade might have some potential in the Cult Uprising detachment. You basically trade out a first turn Return to Shadows roll in favor of a guaranteed 2 result on the ambush table when the units first arrive (with the vehicles brought along too as a bonus). It benefits from a +1 to reserves from the Cult Uprising detachment, so it should come in fairly reliably on turn 2 with the rest of the ambushers that used Return to Shadows turn 1.
MilkmanAl wrote:I feel like the Demolition Claw is a reasonable solution if you're wanting to fully mechanize. The Rock Grinders are nice backfield and midfield control units, and tank-hunting Goliaths are actually pretty darn cost-effective. Mandatory demo charges on the Acolytes isn't ideal, but they can certainly do some damage if you get that lovely Cult Ambush 6. A Brood Cycle with 2 Demo Claws should give you all the armor you need to create a fairly threatening parking lot.
I do like the Demolition Claw, it has done well for me in the games I have used it so far (about 5-ish) as stated prior. I'm planning on using the two new Goliaths I picked up at our local shop's black Friday sale to build a couple standard trucks for use in the formation as extra tank-hunter buffed anti-armor firepower.
The Demo charge Acolytes have actually done rather well for me surprisingly. The squads basically play like Marbo from the old Imperial Guard book (hmmm... wonder if that's why he disappeared? ). I might be misremembering, but I think the ones in the Demolition Claw were able to reroll the scatter results regardless of proximity to the formation's rockgrinders, just they had to be within a certain distance to recover charges after being thrown. Regardless, they are quite fun when aboard the formation's 'grinders. Nothing likes the prospect of 2-3 S8 AP2 pieplates with rerolls to hit and pen.
BBAP wrote:I can't get into big units of Genestealers at all. They're fragile, expensive, and have no grenades - you might roll a 4 for your Warlord trait, or roll up the right biomorph on the First Curse table - but then again you might not. Plus they're S4. Claw-Morphs are much better value for points, I think.
I didn't care for Genestealers initially either, but having used them a bit I actually rather like them now. They aren't that much more expensive than a Claw-morph (+3 points) and are a bit tougher (5++ against ignores cover and they can take FNP against S6 shooting) and faster (both initiative and Fleet + Move Through Cover). Main advantage is against other competent melee units, since 'stealers will swing before pretty much any other commonly encountered threat (particularly obnoxious Wraithknights) while Acolyles and Claw-morphs have to wait their turn to swing. I've generally used them as a second-wave assault threat to finish off whatever has been locked down by other assets (this is why the lack of grenades hasn't been a huge issue for me, once a target is locked in melee you don't suffer the penalty to Initiative). That said, I don't like units greater than 8-10 strong as any more than that tends to lead to gross overkill in combat (which they don't want) or else a waste of points when every shooting platform in the opposing army is going to be gunning for them.
vercingatorix wrote: So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with? Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
I've gotten most use out of the Primus' bubble so far, but admittedly very few people at our group have been using psykers so the Magnus' bubble has little effect and the abundance of S6 shooting makes the Iconward's FNP bubble only really helpful for the Aberrants (which love it) and 'stealers. Most of my CAD based builds have used the Patriarch though, as fearless is always good and he still offers a little bit of psychic shenanigans.
Also if running a CAD, I'd strongly recommend those Armored Containers. They offer a fairly nice toolbox with lots of deployable cover, ammo dumps for rerolls of 1 while shooting, fuel drums for torrent flamers, and the random chance of getting a lovely orbital bombardment or 4++ bubble.
1410pts. 440pts to play with. With this base, you dump what you need to in reserve (generally the Stealers and CAD Acolytes, plus whatever else I think I can live without for a few turns) and deploy everything else as needs be - generally the Magus and Iconward with one blob of Neophytes, Warlord with the other for wounds, CAD Patriarchs with Cycle units (although I don't like that - people love to shoot at Patriarchs and I've had a couple of turn 1 close calls even despite Shrouding). Turn one you either hit stuff with anything that can charge and RttS with everything else, or if that's not a good idea you RttS as much as possible. If I can get casts off I'll leave 4-6 Warp Charges on the table - if not I'll put my psykers in Ongoing Reserve and just start casting on turn 2.
Doing it this way ensures you're always going to have stuff coming in from Ambush, and you've got so many dice to roll you're guaranteed a 6 or three. You're also guaranteed several 1s, a few awkward 2s, and a couple of 5s that may or may not be useful; anything that lands out of position gets shoved in a corner ready to RttS and try again next turn. I tend to be RttSing with at least 3 units on every turn bar turn 5, in which case I'll only RttS stuff that's in a really, really bad position.
EDIT: I should probably point out that in the eight or so games I've played with this army list, I've never once gone first. Not once. I have an idea how it'd work going first, but I've never had a chance to try it out.
You can fill that 440pts out with various different things, though I like to try and bring in anti-air stuff or anti-armour shooting if I can get it, preferably stuff tough enough to survive turn 1 on its own, which gives me leeway to RttS my entire GSC contingent if I feel like it. A couple of things I've tried so far:
ITC Comp:
- Two Flyrants with TL Devourer/ Shock grubs and 2 Mucolids. You need to drop a Claw-Morph squad and The Crouchling to fit these in, and in all honesty I probably wouldn't do it again. I ran them against a Scatbike Eldar army and while they weren't awful, I just didn't feel like they did enough to justify the reshuffle. The Flyrants are surprisingly fragile too - 480pts is a lot to ask for 2x4 wounds, even on a flyer, and Grav spam will blow them up no problem at all. Shadow in the Warp was a pain as well. One of the Mucolids did manage to blow up a Scatbike unit all by itself though, which was amusing.
- CCS and Infantry Platoons, all with Flakk MLs. Wasn't impressed with this one either. The BS3 shooting just isn't good enough to be reliable with such a small contingent - but I'm not willing to drop any of my GSC units (which are good) to include more Guard units (which are bad). Played it against a mech Wolves army with an IK, where it performed poorly, and a shooty Eldar army, where it performed poorly and then died. In both games my Acolytes killed more vehicles than the Missile Launchers did.
- Pask Vanquisher with a Lascannon and HB Sponsons, Veterans with a Missile Launcher, Vendetta. Drop a unit of Claw-Morphs and you can fit all this in. Ran this against Scatbike/ Wraithknight Eldar and mech Wolves with an Imperial Knight (the one with the Battlecannon and chainsword), and it did pretty well against both. The Pask Vanquisher is a really nasty piece of kit, tough as old boots and capable of dishing out a lot of damage. It's cheaper and sturdier than a single Flyrant too. The veterans died before they could fire a shot against the Eldar and did nothing at all against the Wolves. The Vendetta was complete ass.
ETC Comp:
- Daemons Allied (Fateweaver, Horrors, Screamers, Tzeentch DP). The idea here was max Warp Dice, and I was so sure it would work that I dropped some GSC stuff to fit it all in. I was wrong. It was a complete disaster. Just an unmitigated fail-fest. I ran it against an Ultramarines army with lots of grav, melta and bikes, which you'd think it'd do well against, but it's just too much. There's far too much going on, and because both halves of the army want to be in CC it's way too difficult to keep them out of Come The Apocalypse range of one another. I did manage to swap the Horrors for a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster though, which was funny - not sure it's legal to give Horrors Malefic powers anymore, but he died to Gravs before he could do anything so we didn't query it too closely.
- Coteaz, OM Inquisitor with Servo Skulls, 2 Acolytes, 1 Psyker, Psyback, Culexus Assassin. I played this against a pretty sub-optimal Wolves army (Fenrisian Wolf "deathstar" with Celestine and Canis, Wulfen in a Stormwolf, plus a few other daft units and a Culexus Assassin), but even at that it was quite handy. The "allied" contingent has a really small footprint so Come The Apocalypse wasn't an issue - your dudes tend to want to be near your psykers, who want to be far away from the Culexus, who is generally fine running around on his own forcing enemy psykers to move, while the Psyback can just sit in a corner far away from everything and plink away until it dies. If you don't feel you need Coteaz's Warp Charges you can also use it as a deathride. The Servo Skulls are more a hindrance than a help - they're "enemy" Skulls, so your dudes can't Ambush within 12" of them, which is annoying, although you can just stick them all behind the Psyback and Infiltrate everywhere else. I can see them being extremely useful against the likes of White Scars though - deploy them across the middle of the board and you take away his Scout move at the cost of access to the mid-board for your own units.
One army I'd quite like to try allying with is Necrons, although I don't really know any Necrons players and I doubt I could get enough models together to proxy them
.
I see your core list, I think I get what you are playing like now. Do you play just pure GSC as well? If so what do you run to fill in the points?
Your list doesn't have any large unit to hide HQ in . 10 man squads are not safe. Why the Patriarch in the Cad when Magus are cheaper and do the same thing. Patriarch want a big unit to play with not small 5 man unit. are better for the MSU approach you are doing.
I am surprised you feel is The Pask Vanquisher is sturdier than Flyrant? In what way. The tank is a easy target for Grav. Where's a Tyrant can fly away, need 6's to hit it and can go off the board if need be to reposition for the next turn. Not seeing how a tank is more survivable then one of the best units in the game.
Here is my list to see my mind set. a Pure GSC list. I play in the ITC format a lot so my list are geared toward them.
vercingatorix wrote: So a lot of people are taking the cult insurrection with 4 hqs then a CAD. What do people like to fill the CAD with?
Min squads of Acolytes. It's a tax for the extra HQs - anything else you want to bring is better off in the Insurrection so it gets Infiltrate.
Which bubbles are you finding most useful? I suppose even if you are running a different style, which bubbles are you finding most useful?
Fearless is indispensible. I don't think I'd like running this army without at least one Patriarch. You might be able to pull it off if you go mech, but anything melee-oriented wants those Patriarch(s). The Primus bubble is awesome if you can fit him in too, but like I said earlier - rolling 40 to-hit dice is fantastic with Hatred, but even without it you're still rolling 40 to-hit dice. The Iconward is useless; S6 ignores it on the majority of your units, and even when it doesn't it saves so few models I rarely remember to roll it.
Strat_N8 wrote: I didn't care for Genestealers initially either, but having used them a bit I actually rather like them now. They aren't that much more expensive than a Claw-morph (+3 points) and are a bit tougher (5++ against ignores cover and they can take FNP against S6 shooting) and faster (both initiative and Fleet + Move Through Cover). Main advantage is against other competent melee units, since 'stealers will swing before pretty much any other commonly encountered threat (particularly obnoxious Wraithknights) while Acolyles and Claw-morphs have to wait their turn to swing. I've generally used them as a second-wave assault threat to finish off whatever has been locked down by other assets (this is why the lack of grenades hasn't been a huge issue for me, once a target is locked in melee you don't suffer the penalty to Initiative). That said, I don't like units greater than 8-10 strong as any more than that tends to lead to gross overkill in combat (which they don't want) or else a waste of points when every shooting platform in the opposing army is going to be gunning for them.
I'm not saying Genestealers are bad. They're absolutely not - I get a lot of use out of the 5-man squad I bring in my Brood Cycle (I generally use them like you do, they come in and murder things I'm stuck in combat with), and there's definitely a place for them in most GSC lists. They're just not a good unit to build an army around, in my opinion. They have no grenades for a start, and if there's one thing I can't stand it's melee units without grenades. That T4 5++ isn't so tough that going last won't hurt them, and FNP(6+) saves so few models I often forget I have it - for Stealers it's an incremental increase to survivability that might make sense if you're running the Stealers as part of an army, but isn't going to keep an army built around them from crumbling to bolters. The +3pts per model above Claw-Morphs isn't much model for model, but it adds up quickly. You also have to bear in mind that Claw-Morphs and Stealers get the same number of attacks, but Stealers are S4 while the Morphs are S6 (and can reach S8 with the right buffs), and Stealers can never have more than 1D6 on their Ambush rolls.
tl;dr - I don't hate Genestealers. I just don't think you can build a good GSC army around large units of them for various reasons.
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shadowfinder wrote: Do you play just pure GSC as well? If so what do you run to fill in the points?
I tend not to, partly because that pushes the model count above 150 no matter what I do, and finding 150 models to proxy with is a bit awkward, and partly because pure GSC can't kill Flyers reliably. If I was going to do it I'd probably retool it to fit in some shooty units.
Your list doesn't have any large unit to hide HQ in . 10 man squads are not safe
They're fine. Give them cover and they'll work. Give the opponent something else to shoot at, or keep them off the table for 2/5 turns, and they work even better.
Why the Patriarch in the Cad when Magus are cheaper and do the same thing.
Don't do the same thing at all. Don't get Fearless bubbles from a Magus.
Patriarch want a big unit to play with not small 5 man unit. are better for the MSU approach you are doing.
Patriarchs suck. They exist solely to provide Fearless bubbles. What they "want" is 10 ablative wounds so they can sit in midfield powering the rest of the army.
I am surprised you feel is The Pask Vanquisher is sturdier than Flyrant? In what way
It's immune to S6 shooting from the front and sides and has a 72" range main gun. Sit it in a corner and it'll plug anything that comes into midfield. Seems obvious to me.
Where's a Tyrant can fly away
With 18" weapons and a Template? It can fly away, but if it does it's a waste of space.
need 6's to hit it
Grav cannons are Salvo 3/5 and nobody brings just one. Scatbikes are Heavy 4. Spider-guns are Assault 2. Cluster Pods are Heavy 4D6. Etcetera etcetera.
Not seeing how a tank is more survivable then one of the best units in the game.
Try running them against Taudar or Eldar. You'll soon see. Flyrants might be great if you take 5 of them. With 2, not so much.
This list has a decent amount of moving parts and has staying power to handle incoming fire power for a turn too be able to pounce the next turn.
These are T4 5++ dudes you're talking about. It doesn't have "staying power". Nothing in the GSC book does, aside from Russes and Aberrants. That's why you need tonnes of bodies, and why all of those bodies need to present enough of a threat that (a) your opponent wants to shoot at them all and (b) losing 40-60 of them a turn doesn't cripple your army. We were talking about Tau earlier. One Stormsurge could probably destroy 20 Genestealers a turn on its own, maybe even more if you land in D-pulse range, more still once the Markerlights start hitting you.
D weapons are a threat to your army. Mine doesn't care about them, because any D attack is killing 5/10 dudes maximum.
It's not an issue of "playstyle" either. I get what you're trying to do, because I tried to do it as well when I first picked the army up. It'll work well against certain builds that lack the firepower or mobility to avoid/ squash the Stealers, but once you start losing those Stealers your army will fold quickly.
Like I said though, you play the army how you want to play it.
I think the only thing that REALLY holds the stealers back is that they can't be taken as part of a subterranean uprising. Giving them an extra roll on the CA table would make them spammable as they definitely have their niche in CC and aren't even much less survivable per point with their 5++ and T4. They're just too expensive to have the risk of a 1 on the table and not have them in the fray early.
And here's my take on the MSU vs large unit debate:
MSU advantages - Tougher against shooting + assault. Enemy loses significant killing power due to overkilling small squads. They have to do this unless they want a single model to RTTS and return with free reinforcements. - Tougher vs overwatch. Can lose maximum of 5 models, maybe fewer if the first charging squad is already depleted. - Better distribution of damage output. Small units can avoid wasting unecessary killing power on one unit. 5 metamorphs will likely kill a rhino. If you have two units of 5 they can kill two rhinos. If you have one unit of ten you're going to struggle more. This is more apparent with MSU shooting though than with GSC. - Can engage multiple threats. If you need two far flung units dead on the last turn, if you only have one blob of 20 to CA, they can kill maximum of one. Four units of 5 can spread themselves about. This is an advantage capturing objectives too. - RTTS reinforcements. Mightbe hard to prove with stats, but I suspect that having more rolls at getting reinforcements will yield more new bodies, even if the squads can only get 1-4 men back. Four depleted 5-man units might get an average of 2 models back each from RTTS + CA, so eight new models. A depleted 20-man blob will get on average 3 or 4 from its single roll.
Large unit advantages - Good to hide characters in (particularly with the auto-pass on LOS), also good to hide hidden goodies such as the heavy rock saw. - Take advantage of blessings more e.g. invis, and some character benefits - Take advantage of the good warlord trait (pick your CA result) - Give up fewer kill points. This can be a major drawback in some formats like the ETC (I've had an occasion where I've lost on kill points despite having around 700pts of my MSU army left where my opponent had around 200pts remaining. I also controlled more objectives and it lost me the game) - Slightly better at screening/bubblewrapping. Only slightly better though. Nothing to stop you spreading 4 small five man units out in a row to bubble wrap either, but the enemy might be able to punch a hole in these with shooting a little easier.
Ways in which they're as good as each other (but both sides of the debate often like to claim as advantages): - Total killing power. They are the same number of models. If you charge in with a unit of ten, you could just as easily charge with two units of 5. - Morale. Assuming no fearless, morale is fairly equivalent. No big deal if two survivors from a MSU squad flee. Big deal if 12 acolytes leg it out of a 20 man squad! MSU are easier to force checks, but blobs have bigger consequences. MSU might have the advantage in morale from losing assaults, as they can avoid the problem by feeding a 40pt squad per turn to anything they think they will lose to. They can do their damage and die, knowing another 10 men won't be run down.
My take on the matter is that MSU are inherently stronger in terms of damage and toughness. My army I'm building towards is almost entirely MSU, backed up with three 20-man blobs of neophytes with patriarchs to block stuff, tie stuff up and provide a safe place for the fearless bubble of the patriarchs. My advice is that with large squads, use one or two and play to their strengths - characters, blessings, warlord traits. Keep the majority of the force MSU
DoomMouse wrote: My take on the matter is that MSU are inherently stronger in terms of damage and toughness. My army I'm building towards is almost entirely MSU, backed up with three 20-man blobs of neophytes with patriarchs to block stuff, tie stuff up and provide a safe place for the fearless bubble of the patriarchs. My advice is that with large squads, use one or two and play to their strengths - characters, blessings, warlord traits. Keep the majority of the force MSU
I've said it before and I will say it again:
Pick a unit of 20 acolyte from the brood cycle so that if you got that 6 on the warlord trait (with reroll so that will happen sum times) you can attach your characters and go to town.
Also pick a unit of 20 acolytes from the subterean uprising and attach the primus for a 3xd6 cult ambush unit.
These two units could cripple an enemy army turn 1.
@BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
I lean towards having a large unit or two of Acolytes for the SU Primus and warlord Patriarch to roll with since each has a ~50% chance of being able to ambush at will. That's obviously no guarantee, but I like having the ability to throw down a monster combat unit when and where I need it. You could certainly argue that splitting the unit into 4 pieces increases the chance you'll be able to 6 ambush something, and that is true. Unfortunately, the chances you'll be able to crash in with more than 1 unit are pretty slim. While that's not a huge deal if you're picking off opposing MSU, if you're looking to down a Stormsurge or Wraithknight or deathstar of some kind, power is good! It takes 108 Acolyte attacks to down a Wraithknight in a turn (or 54 if you're hitting on 3's), so you've got to bring the purple tide if you want to make it count.
On a loosely related note, I haven't found that the Patriarch sucks - quite the opposite, in fact. The fearless bubble is crucial, no doubt, but the Patriarch is brutal in combat for his cost. Obviously you'll need to avoid big units with 2+ saves, but he mows through basically anything else.
shogun wrote: @BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
You don't necessarily sit in the back. You want those bubbles in midfield - that way if it's not outright preventing Morale checks it limits the distance your runners will travel. It also means some units can G2G in one turn, then return to normal the next, which makes rolling a 3-5 for Ambush less of a pain.
I agree that a 10-man unit isn't the safest place for them. It's not hard for someone to blow that unit up and your Patriarch along with it - but in my experience the opponent usually has enough other targets to shoot at that he's not worried about a bunch of dudes with autoguns. Even if one of them does get blown up, I have another 2 to use.
Me, I think using the Patriarchs as front-line fighters is a waste. Putting them in a melee unit sort of locks you into placing and moving them a certain way. That means less flexibility for bubble placement. They're also really, really mediocre in close combat - they're good for a wound or two a turn against basic troopers, but that's about the most you can count on them for, and that margin is small enough that a full-blown whiff is not uncommon. I think they should've given the Claws RRTH rather than Shred.
The First Curse out of formation
Patriarch [Mastery Level 2]
Purestrain Genestealers [20x Purestrain Genestealer]
This list has a decent amount of moving parts and has staying power to handle incoming fire power for a turn too be able to pounce the next turn.
I just won a RTT with this list . In the finals I had to face a Mirror match VS another GSC that had mass acolytes and meta's with claws. The mass number of genestealer I had enabled me to easily deal with them. The large unit allowed me to handle all the extra small unit he had as he could bring any in that could survive my attacks first from them.
The first curse formation is very good.
It was a brutal game we played.
shogun wrote: @BBAP: I understand that you just use the Patriarch for fearless and nothing else and then I can imagine its okay for him to stay in the back in cover with only a unit of 10. But with Unquestionable loyalty I rather put my both patriarchs + both magus + iconward in a small deathstarr unit. I think its just a waist to keep them behind. If the can assault a deathstar unit first turn the could really get the sting out of it.
You don't necessarily sit in the back. You want those bubbles in midfield - that way if it's not outright preventing Morale checks it limits the distance your runners will travel. It also means some units can G2G in one turn, then return to normal the next, which makes rolling a 3-5 for Ambush less of a pain.
I agree that a 10-man unit isn't the safest place for them. It's not hard for someone to blow that unit up and your Patriarch along with it - but in my experience the opponent usually has enough other targets to shoot at that he's not worried about a bunch of dudes with autoguns. Even if one of them does get blown up, I have another 2 to use.
Me, I think using the Patriarchs as front-line fighters is a waste. Putting them in a melee unit sort of locks you into placing and moving them a certain way. That means less flexibility for bubble placement. They're also really, really mediocre in close combat - they're good for a wound or two a turn against basic troopers, but that's about the most you can count on them for, and that margin is small enough that a full-blown whiff is not uncommon. I think they should've given the Claws RRTH rather than Shred.
Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting. In a large combat unit he thrives. GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army. His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills. I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
I will not leave home without a 20 man squad for him and thr FC is very good for him.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
I did switch the to patty's to get the shrouded on both unit turn one. It is a simple solution to getting the benefit to the second FC. I have found the free random buff to be very nice as well.. I looked at it with Two flyrants. I think it will work with just one FC but I have not had the chance to try it.
I have faced a Nurgle daemon army with a IK, but nothing with a high number of shots from a daemon army yet. I Did face a 6 Fliers SM army that had a Fire raptor and a few Ravens and storm talons and some assault transport that fired lots of template all over the place. It was crazy. A unit of 20 stealers required all the fliers to focus it down the in cover>
I have yet to play VS 5 Flyrants yet. Most of the Tyranid players myself included have switched to a Tyranid cult combo with a max of 3 Flyrants. I myself am looking at just doing two. Mainly Pure GSC is hard to play 4 to 5 round with the hoard of models.
VS flyer's They have to land some time and then they die. Anything on the ground just dies normally.
VS hive tyrants I think midsize unit of 10 will be able to survive and be able to go away and come back. Large Units of Genestealer with a 3+ cover-save have no issues with being shoot at as they can weather the pain fairly well. Vs the tyrants I just place the objectives in ruins and sit tell they have to come to me. In the ITC I will win the Maelstrom very time.
As for the favoring pure Acolytes over Metamorphs.. I had some overkill boxes and no whips at the time. Mine where already painted and I didn't want to destroy then to remodel.
I have found the claw meta's to be good but I really like the whips as well. I think a unit of ten should have a 4 whips to help handle other GSC armies. With all the genestealer I don't have to worry about it so much as I swing before the claws guys.
I like the acolytes because I can take a unit of 15 to hid the Icon and if I take a primus( I ma thinking he is not really worth it for my play style) to hide in. This give me in this list 4 big units to threaten the board for a beta strike. with at lest two guys normal letting me set op a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.
I am looking at incressing the sub uprising to two 15 man Acolytes squads and giving me 5 15 man squads. I looking at drop the primus altogether as he has yet t help get me a 6 even on three dice in over 10 games. I would rather buff up the small 5 man squads to 7 to 8 in th Brood cycle or the two meta's squads to a high numbers. I will have to see.
So far I have won a GT and a local RTT with genestealer as my main unit. With the Rtt win I should have First place with GSC in the ITC so far. I am hoping to get in one more tournament befor the LVO I like to have a real chance to get First place GSC for the year. Next year I will do GSC for the season or intel they come out with new Tyranid book.
I have faced Tau gun lines and Eldar Bike spam while going second and was able to weather the storm pretty well. Eldar do not like the new GSC at all. Tau can be a very messy fight depending on who goes first. GSC likes going first. I ind bigger units make going second doable.
My only concern is the amount of time it take to do the movement phase with them. I may go with 2 Flyrants to help with the model count. it is a hard call to make.
think going with a single SubUp is the way to go with larger unit sizes.
I Faced a subUp in a mirror match ran them that way it did really well. He had no genestealer except the 5 in the BC and maxed out the SupUp formation and then a cad. he was doing really well as we. Between the two of us we had over 260+ models on the table after deployment. It was crazy fun.
jifel wrote: Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
It really depends on the missions but if you're playing with tactical objectives its better to work with MSU that can appear and disappear every turn. Acolytes are so cheap and with the right bonuses (icon/Primus/psychic powers) just as good to get the job done against a lot of enemy units. Also I believe that acolytes can go to 20 models in a unit and metamorphs only 10. With a big army that infiltrates/cult ambush you can just simply block the whole field so that flyers cannot deploy/land. If you summon 20 neophytes for 2 turns (with heavy weapons) you could block another part of the battlefield and start shooting to.
Yeah it's absolutely crazy how many models we can put down honestly... I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play. I don't ever want to be that guy who never seems to hit turn 5! Model limitations are certainly real too. I've been actively avoiding the summoning power just because right now my list is all I've got! Fortunately I picked up another DW:O and two more hybrid boxes, but getting all of the required Neophytes is going to take some time... Glad to hear that a few people have been having success with the army! Congrats on all the wins, but as soon as I get my army fully painted I'm coming for that ITC spot
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
Certainly most games can be decided by 3 turns but not all, and I mostly don't want to run out of tie against an opponent with tough units or bubble wrap. Plus I've been seized on enough to know that any game can turn close, but still be winnable. Got seized on by an Eldar list with Triptide wing and it took me 6 turns to swing that one back in my favor.
jifel wrote: I've heard several people dissing the flyrants as Unneccessary compared to more bodies but to me they're important from a time standpoint in competitive play.
I think this needs talking about. It takes a long, long time to play this army, and I'm not sure how much of that you can obviate with practise and experience. There's only so fast you can move 140+ models, especially when you're moving some onto the table, moving some off, summoning more in... it's great, but it's very time-consuming, and there's an awful lot to keep track of.
Maybe an argument for semi-mech GSC in tournaments?
I'll admit that I haven't played in a tournament yet, but I've been playing competitive Nids for 6 years and my friendly games take way longer with GSC than they do with Nids. Got to have part of the army be something very familiar and fast to play so I can keep the game going. Had a friendly game go over 4 hours the other day where I played against a Deathstar. Admittedly it was 7 turns of me popping in and out avoiding him (didn't declare a single assault) but that was still way too long.
Time is a big factor I feel to. I do find that most of my games are decided by turn 3 most of the time. Taking Tyrants will make the game go faster and they are a good answer to people bubble rapping units. They also give you Str 6 shooting which make some match up easier. For Tournament play they have a really strong argument in there favor.
The list I played at the RTT can play fast but you are still taking 30 to 40 min to do the setup. Having a plan goes a long way in fixing that. For my army I am trying to get 3+ on the CA. If I get a 6 it is cool but it is not something I plan for.
For me I don't know if I want to give up my large units of Genestealer for the Flyrants. They been doing the heavy lifting for me really well.
Certainly most games can be decided by 3 turns but not all, and I mostly don't want to run out of tie against an opponent with tough units or bubble wrap. Plus I've been seized on enough to know that any game can turn close, but still be winnable. Got seized on by an Eldar list with Triptide wing and it took me 6 turns to swing that one back in my favor.
Good points to keep in mind. I am looking forward to Running this army at LVO that is for sure.
There are different things you can do to speed up the game:
With deploying and removing GSC units I like to use movement tray's:
If theirs not a lot of big (indirect) blast you can place your units behind a defence line on the tray. No need to spread out if you got a 2+ coversave (first turn shrouded + defenceline) and replenish d6 casualties with 'return to the shadow'.
All my units got different color pants and my Brood cycle got banners to keep them apart.
If you can afford, let your enemy go first, take a few wounds, go into the shadows and leave at least one unit behind not to get wiped, replenish your wounds, his second turn he got almost nothing to shoot at, and then come out of the shadows. You start playing at the end of turn 2 so you will take this game to turn 5 or further. And a lot happens during these rounds so it's not like you don't get a good game. Once played against 3 thunderfire cannons + 2 devastator squads with missle launchers that were shooting frag blast at my mega armor ork warboss with lucky stikk . This took forever!!!! But with GSC armies there is a lot of moving, shooting, assaulting and both players lose a lot of units and that makes a good game.
I think knowing when to skip certain action, can speed up your play time in a tournament. You don't have to shoot every pistol when you need a 6 to wound every round.
Knowing when to do this and when not to I believe will be the secret to winning with GSC in a tournament setting.
I had a experience where my opponent was wanting to assault units that had no way of helping him win because he thought he had to. I told him I let hi win cause only the big fight in the middle counted as this was the last turn because we where out of time. after I pointed it out he realized it himself but we sometime get so focused in playing the game we forget the time.
Time management will be key. I think taking large units can help with that and knowing when to shoot which unit nd when not too will speed things up.
I made movement/deployment trays as well. It sped things up considerably. I also made numbered markers out of 25 mm bases to keep track of what units are what. It was still tough with 20+ units on the board! My Magus units are all different colors to make psychic easier.
Just played my first game tonight, a smashing victory for the MSU genestealer cults vs nids. I can definitely tell this is going to take some practice to get the play style down and get used to the movement.
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote: I made movement/deployment trays as well. It sped things up considerably. I also made numbered markers out of 25 mm bases to keep track of what units are what. It was still tough with 20+ units on the board! My Magus units are all different colors to make psychic easier.
Cut the gutter guard stuff at a diagonal so that it looks like guardrail instead of chain link. Dip it in boiling water for a minute or so afterwards to get it to lay straight?
Hot glue all that together, prime black, dry brush metal, use a stencil to paint hazard stripes and Bobs your uncle!
P.s. Super glue and PVA glue suck for this, I tried! Stick with hot glu throughout.
Nice one! I think I have most of that stuff lying around too (maybe not the gutter guard), might slap some together this weekend and see how I get on. Really good stuff.
Those are some seriously cool movement trays. They fit the theme I think of with GSC really well, too! When you get close to opponents (like, say, when you're ripping their faces off in combat), do you abandon the trays? Lift up the opposing models onto the tray? Basically, I'm trying to figure out when/if the movement tray strategy breaks down and you're obligated to shuffle dudes manually.
Yeah, around turn two they start getting pulled off. I mostly use them as cult ambush deployment and getting dudes off for return to shadows
Close combat they get pulled off, and even sometimes to squeeze into a tight spot Or to tuck dudes into ruins. But for squads that roll 1-5 and aren't overly concerned about blasts they stick around until it's convenient to spread out or the RTTS.
And thanks for the compliments! I kinda envision them bursting out of industrial elevators hidden underground. And I figured if I made them fit the aesthetic the board would look cooler during the game, and who doesn't want a bad ass looking game?!
Makes sense. Even if you just use them for shuttling during RttS/ Cult Ambush I can see that speeding up play an awful lot. Far easier to keep track of everything using trays too.
I really like the elevator thing as well - much more cinematic than the whole "Pink Panther", tiptoeing around the board vibe I get from regular old Cult Ambush.
I'm really loving this idea of doing movement trays. I have a drill press and forstner bits. I bet I could get the perfect unit spacing for blasts and go to town for units of 5. Two thin MDF boards would do the trick; one I drill through and one that is laid down as a base.
Since I do urban bases, I could even use lamp posts on the base to allow for an easy pickup like the previous poster with the doll rods.
Ok guys, got a question for you all. Are characters or more squads more valuable to you? I'm currently running an Incursion with 3x Flyrants. The flyrant part im sold on, but for the incursion im debating characters or bodies. I have a brood cycle and SubUp so I have all 4 HQs in there. Primus I know I want because of Hatred and a 3d6. Iconward is super valuable and I must take him in brood cycle. Patriarch and Magus are both valuable I feel, but not cheap. If I went pure MSU and moved around some acolytes I could fit in a second SubUprising. Dropping patriarch and Magis nets me 210 points, aka 3x5 man Metamorphs squads with claws or whips and an extra acolyte squad. My gut here is that the buffs and powers are worth it to include the characters, but they are damn tempting because of how nasty those squads are...
I'm loving bodies right now. Every additional squad in a subterranean uprising is another 2d6 of possible asssaulting! Summoning has also done well so far, I've stuck with neophytes due to model restrictions, but they make themselves super Annoying....but not quite valuable enough to waste fire on so every squad of 20 stays a pain in the ass all game
The 3d6 Primus ambush is neat, but only if you're running big units. In a MSU force you're getting a 75 point character to buff a squad that probably only costs 55 points.
My personal preference is pure MSU, leaving the primus at home. Using those 75 points to get 1 or (slightly less than) 2 more squads, which each roll 2D6. 4 extra ambushing dice, instead of just 1.
Magus and patriarch I'd always take, as summoning is just too good, regardless of what style of list you're bringing.
jifel wrote: Ok guys, got a question for you all. Are characters or more squads more valuable to you? I'm currently running an Incursion with 3x Flyrants. The flyrant part im sold on, but for the incursion im debating characters or bodies. I have a brood cycle and SubUp so I have all 4 HQs in there. Primus I know I want because of Hatred and a 3d6. Iconward is super valuable and I must take him in brood cycle. Patriarch and Magus are both valuable I feel, but not cheap. If I went pure MSU and moved around some acolytes I could fit in a second SubUprising. Dropping patriarch and Magis nets me 210 points, aka 3x5 man Metamorphs squads with claws or whips and an extra acolyte squad. My gut here is that the buffs and powers are worth it to include the characters, but they are damn tempting because of how nasty those squads are...
It all depends on your strategy and/or the mission you're playing. How do you handle the first turn when you go second? Also, I believe your magus, patriarch and iconward cannot join the subterean uprising unit with primus that got 3d6 cult ambush. The do not get the formation rules (New GWFAQ). So where do you put them? With the brood cycle you got enough objective grabbing units but I'am worried that those flying hive tyrants will have to do a lot of heavy lifting if you're GSC units are facing bad Cult ambush results, facing successful overwatch results or suck at assaulting. With a full GSC army its possible to deploy a few cheap units on the tactical objectives and still got enough units in their face to keep them busy. You might not have that luxury. Flying hives are absolutely not bad but I do think that GCS are a bit of a "go big or go home" kind of army.
To answer your question about the characters: Do you got the models to summon big upgraded acolytes/metamorphs units? If you do, then I would keep the characters because summoning is just to good.
jifel wrote: Ok guys, got a question for you all. Are characters or more squads more valuable to you?
More squads means more CA rolls, which is only ever a good thing. I'd drop the Primus before I dropped anything else too - Fearless is much more useful in many more situations than Hatred, which isn't bad, but is a bit of a waste given you're rolling a tonne of dice anyway.
I agree with shogun. I think if you're going to do a GSC army you want to be spending at least 80% of your points on GSC units, and if you want Summoning then having SitW all over the table is probably not a good idea.
Correct, if a non sub up unit joins them they lose the 2d6 rule. I'm trying tucking my magus (and a couple of CAD magus) into big neophyte squads from a doting throng for bonus wounds and some nifty bonuses. A Furious charge, might from beyond squad of 20 neophytes with zealot is nothing to sneeze at if you can stack all the bubbles
So far in sticking the Magus in a big 18 man Neophyes squad with the Iconward. They usually infiltrate turn 1 instead of cult ambush to guarentee their buffs are up there. Patriarch, warlord trait not being a 6, goes with the stealers and also usually plays a support role not trying to get in combat with the initial rush. If I go second, I always will deploy very conservatively and then RTTS so I can pop up where I need to later and not relying on reserves. Flyrants have consistently been able to handle a lot and I have had no trouble avoiding SitW range, plus when in the air can prevent a tabling if I have a lot in ongoing reserves. The flyrants are absolute champs so far. And personally I find it way to hard to give up Hatred as it increases my effectiveness so much, and he is cheap. Dropping him would net me two more hybrid squads essentially, not even Metamorphs. Hatred is worth more imo.
So I just played a game vs a Mech heavy guard army 1850 pts with 2 manticores, 2 wyverins, the 4 big rocket one 3 hellhounds and 3-4 chimeras with 2 vet squads and 2 command squads. A russ or two.
I had my incursion with cavalcade(Vanq/Laz Russ, 2 heavy flamer Armored Sents, 2Neophytes with 2 flamers in chimeras) Sub Uprising (Primus, 10 Claw metas with icon, 2x 5 Claw metas, 3x5 Acolytes, 15 Acolytes with icon), LoC: Magus ML2 Crouchling, Patarach ML2, Iconward, Shadow Skulkers 5 Purestrains
GSCCAD 2 ML2 Magus, 2 Neophyte squads with Autocannon team, Tyranid Allies Flyrant, Mucilid
He won first turn so I Reserved everything except the Mucilid, 2 AC neo squads, and one Chimera Neo squad.
He wiped one AC squad plus one or two guys from the other squads. He clamed first blood and 2 VP from melstorm
I just dug in behind blocking los cover.
Turn two
He does a bit more damage to my remaining guys pops the chimera but after he is done I still have The mucilid, one nearly full AC Neo squad and most of the Chimera Neo team. he claims 2 more VP melstorm
I proceed to roll 6 for 5 separate units including my primus unit with 10 claw metas. With this I destroy 2/3 of his tanks(including his anti air) on the charge my flyrant takes out a hellhound staying behind blocking terrain until my assault units can deal with his anti air. I summon a unit of 8 genestealers to objective grab and net 2 VP.
Turn 3
He does a lot of damage to me wiping all my meta squads except the primus and a few acolyte squads but it's desperation now and his back is broken.
My units mop up I keep summoning 10 man neo squads as they are easier (I can get 2/turn since I managed to get summon on 2 of my magus)
We continue to turn 5 end. I quickly overtake him in VP and if we had gone another turn probably would have tabled him. He was a good sport about it and is even now making plans to tweek his army for next time. To quote "Fire barrels on everything"
I was worried about the wyverins as a squad of 2 puts down somthing like 16 small blasts I think with shread and ignore cover but by reserving most of my army he didn't have any good targets, same went for his big rocket tank, If I had played agressivly he would have wiped a bunch of units off the map and I'd have had nothing to counterattack with.
I found my MVP's were the Primus for his hatrid bubble and the magus's with their summons. Being able to replace 2 units/turn after they get killed is great.
Planning a hunge day long game with 5000 pts of my GSC with Tyranids, Guard, and Inq all included vs a 2500pt Dark angels army and a 2500pt chaos army. I'm looking forward to some serous carnage.
PS: Yes Inq is come the apox but I'm bringing Coteaz and a henchman squad to man an ADL with Quad gun and give me the best possable chance of going first.
This last weekend I played Classic Hammer. It is like playing 5t Ed with only a cad allowed.
I found GSC has to have tanks to be able to be played in a Cad format.
I faced Wyverns and Thunder fire cannons in two of the three games. I did killed 4 models with the IG guy. I couldn't even get close to him to assault.
Not being able to Cult ambush first turn with everything is devastating.
I think playing GSC with a CAD is really not possible without tanking up.
shadowfinder wrote: This last weekend I played Classic Hammer. It is like playing 5t Ed with only a cad allowed.
I found GSC has to have tanks to be able to be played in a Cad format.
I faced Wyverns and Thunder fire cannons in two of the three games. I did killed 4 models with the IG guy. I couldn't even get close to him to assault.
Not being able to Cult ambush first turn with everything is devastating.
I think playing GSC with a CAD is really not possible without tanking up.
I'm running into a similar situation. I'm playing in the Adepticon Team Tournament and we're doing a blend of a cult themed list. One army can take a formation, so that's obviously a subterranean. One list will be pure tyranids, and the other is a tempestus scions list. But for the two GSC lists, I'm contemplating more mech. Potentially Primus as HQ's attached to big genestealer squads. They're fairly durable.
When you have to run essentially CAD and only get 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy, 1 Fast and 3 Troops, it makes for interesting selections.
shadowfinder wrote: This last weekend I played Classic Hammer. It is like playing 5t Ed with only a cad allowed.
I found GSC has to have tanks to be able to be played in a Cad format.
I faced Wyverns and Thunder fire cannons in two of the three games. I did killed 4 models with the IG guy. I couldn't even get close to him to assault.
Not being able to Cult ambush first turn with everything is devastating.
I think playing GSC with a CAD is really not possible without tanking up.
I disagree, A full GSCCAD infantry army is very good but you simply have to go second and go into the shadows and start playing turn 2.
2 patriarch
6 big acolyte units
3 big genestealer units
aegis defence line with gun
Its very strait forward but can be devastating. And you need the models to...
Timeshadow wrote: So I just played a game vs a Mech heavy guard army 1850 pts with 2 manticores, 2 wyverins, the 4 big rocket one 3 hellhounds and 3-4 chimeras with 2 vet squads and 2 command squads. A russ or two.
I had my incursion with cavalcade(Vanq/Laz Russ, 2 heavy flamer Armored Sents, 2Neophytes with 2 flamers in chimeras) Sub Uprising (Primus, 10 Claw metas with icon, 2x 5 Claw metas, 3x5 Acolytes, 15 Acolytes with icon), LoC: Magus ML2 Crouchling, Patarach ML2, Iconward, Shadow Skulkers 5 Purestrains
GSCCAD 2 ML2 Magus, 2 Neophyte squads with Autocannon team, Tyranid Allies Flyrant, Mucilid.
Remember that the Subterranean Uprising has to be on the board turn one per their detachment rules.
shadowfinder wrote: Patriarchs are beast in close combat and it is a odd day that he doesn't kill what he is fighting.
Happens often enough in my games that it's become a running joke. A Rune Priest took two wounds off him last time I played and Paw couldn't land a glove on him. Needed some Acolytes to come over and help him out.
In a large combat unit he thrives.
... because he's in a large combat unit. A Magus thrives in a large combat unit because he has lots of other models to make up for his suck. Patriarch, same deal. Being able to deal 1-2 wounds a turn isn't a massive hindrance when the dudes around you are dishing out 7+.
GSC is a Combat army not a shooting army.
Who said they weren't?
His fearless bubble makes sure get to finish the job. If you are taking him just that bubble you are missing out on het best skills.
The bubble is his best skill. Combat is a distant third. If you charge him in without an assault unit for backup he could end up stuck in CC with whatever he's fighting for four or five rounds, which means your bubble is static for two turns. That means one less bubble to repop units that G2G against shooting or keep units fighting a losing combat.
I have had kill A lot of stuff so far making his points back in spades.
"Making back points" is not a good way to judge the quality of a model. My Patriarchs never "make their points back", but they're the lynchpin of my army and indispensible for a lot of the tactics I use. I couldn't run the army without them.
Very interesting with the double first curses. I hope you switch the patriarchs between them so both have shrouded turn 1? Not a huge fan of first curse personally but I'm glad you've been able to find success with it. I found it was just too expensive to fit in a list with allied Nids, but it's certainly the first place Id look if I were pure GSC. Have you had the chance to play against Daemons or Nids by the way? Seems like pure GSC has a major problem with killing fliers, and both Flyrants and Daemon FMCs have the potential damage output to make ignoring them a little too painful to work. Also, I'm surprised your list seems to favor pure Acolytes over Metamorphs. To me, the 3 ppm is more than worth it to get the claws in, and I've personally had a lot of success with maxing out Metamorphs in both a single and double SubUp. I eventually settled on a single SubUp with more support and larger squads, but I'm surprised you chose the acolytes as the big squads rather than the metamorphs.
I've been running first curse supported by essentially another first curse (using 20 stealers from the brood cycle and a side CAD's patriarch). They're great but what really does the work is the subterranean assault formation. I use my CAD to grab a second primus as well, which allows me to roll 3x on two different squads.
I'd echo the sentiment that although time is an issue (my 1850 list is 144 models), you're pulling them on and off a lot, so I don't find time to be as big of a deal. I cycle about a third of my army on an average turn to keep them safe from shooting as well as giving me the ability to tactically re-deploy for objectives, etc.....by which I mean I just want to roll more 6's
My list is 100% footsloggers, and absolutely ignores flyers. You're right that they can do a ton of damage if there are a lot of them, but I've played against Nids with multiple flyrants. They just don't have enough bullets, especially since the flyrant's guns let us take armor, and of course cover saves. The other thing about flyers is that they come in on turn 2 at best. By then, my game is largely decided. Yeah, they could swing the game, but chances are if you have that many points invested, you're doing me a favor by keeping it off the table until turn 2/3/4
Personally my area has been playing it so that a non-Subterranean Assault Primus can't get the formation bonus since he's not in it, but I'm glad to hear you've had success playing quickly. I'm at 99 models with 3 Flyrants and honestly getting worried about time. Haven't had a hard timed game yet though so we'll see. Thinking about dropping the third flyrant for a CAD of Magus/Patriarch but haven't done it yet. We'll see... I just feel that the third Flyrant is mandatory to have a chance against Lions Blade and BattleCo
lions blade is not an auto loss you just have to play smart and pick your battles and play the mission. after that you should beat them every time. regular battle company is way easier to play and does not really put up much of a fight.
as for time. i play a list with almost 200 models and 9 psy dice for summoning. i have not had a game go to time yet and have managed to get at least 5 turns in every game. but that being said it helps to have a chart to roll on for all of your units and know what your pulling in and out every turn when it comes to it. just time and practice and the game speeds up quickly
Just charge in a sacrificial unit to either eat the Overwatch or lock the enemy in combat. Avoid multi-assaults unless you have at least one sacrifice for each unit you're hitting. I wouldn't waste psychic dice trying to save 5 Acolytes.
Do you not have any big units in your army? I run at least 2, 20 acolyte squads.
And I feel like losing most of a squad to overwatch every time you charge one of their units will end up with them winning. They have like 10 units in rhinos and probably some plasma bikers.
vercingatorix wrote: Do you not have any big units in your army? I run at least 2, 20 acolyte squads.
10-man Neophyte squads are the biggest I run. I've dabbled with 10-man Acolyte and Genestealer squads, and 14-man Neophyte squads on occasion, but never any more than that.
And I feel like losing most of a squad to overwatch every time you charge one of their units will end up with them winning
That's why you take 4 squads of 5 rather than one squad of 20. You're still charging with 10-20 models, but Overwatch is killing 5 dudes max instead of 5-8. GSC is all about overloading your opponent's capacity to deal damage to your army; big squads have more wounds than small ones, but they're easier to focus fire on and regenerate less models during Cult Ambush than MSU squads do. Your 20-man unit gets D6 models back every time it RttSes - my 4x5 squads get 4d6 models back, d6 each.
MSU also helps with mech armies too - charge the transports with a sacrificial "first line" of Claw-Morphs and Acolytes, let them get boltered down by the stuff that falls out, then next turn you get another Ambush in which can run into the dismounted infantry.
vercingatorix wrote: So vs. a lions blade. Do you prefer going biomancy for the chance to get a 3+ fnp to run through their overwatch or for broodmind powers?
I would almost never go for biomancy. maybe if already got summoning an invisiblity then I could give it a try. Best case scenario would be putting feel no pain on 20 genestealers or 20 acolytes (if the don't get instant killed) and you need to go fish for that power because all other Biomancy powers are not that good. I'd rather summon an extra 20 rapid fire neophytes or 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws, or 10 metamorphs with claws/whips.
Broodmind powers got 5 great/nice powers (with the primaris) that are almost never useless. I once used 'mind control' on a melta-legion of the damned unit that was standing next to a flyer that just went into hover mode..hilarious... Also don't forget the 'psychic stimulus' power (fleet + run and charge). Almost every game I got a unit metamorphs/acolytes that really really really needed to be in close combat and I roll a 3 for assault distance.
vercingatorix wrote: Do you not have any big units in your army? I run at least 2, 20 acolyte squads.
10-man Neophyte squads are the biggest I run. I've dabbled with 10-man Acolyte and Genestealer squads, and 14-man Neophyte squads on occasion, but never any more than that.
And I feel like losing most of a squad to overwatch every time you charge one of their units will end up with them winning
That's why you take 4 squads of 5 rather than one squad of 20. You're still charging with 10-20 models, but Overwatch is killing 5 dudes max instead of 5-8. GSC is all about overloading your opponent's capacity to deal damage to your army; big squads have more wounds than small ones, but they're easier to focus fire on and regenerate less models during Cult Ambush than MSU squads do. Your 20-man unit gets D6 models back every time it RttSes - my 4x5 squads get 4d6 models back, d6 each.
MSU also helps with mech armies too - charge the transports with a sacrificial "first line" of Claw-Morphs and Acolytes, let them get boltered down by the stuff that falls out, then next turn you get another Ambush in which can run into the dismounted infantry.
I mean, everything is so cheap that there's still plenty of msu to go around. In my 1850 I have 19 units. Do you run yours with upwards of 30?
I feel like savy opponents will pick off all your HQs if they're not protected behind some bodies.
vercingatorix wrote: I mean, everything is so cheap that there's still plenty of msu to go around. In my 1850 I have 19 units. Do you run yours with upwards of 30?
I like me some Claw-Morphs so I only have 24, plus three Patriarchs and three Maguses (one Insurrection, two CADs). Focus on Acolytes, drop a HQ or two, and you could easily go above 30 - and, since it's Acolytes, you're not giving up that much killing power. It makes Land Raiders and Monoliths harder to crack, but you have an Iconward so it can still be done.
I feel like savy opponents will pick off all your HQs if they're not protected behind some bodies.
So bring more HQs :-P The only one that'll cost you anything if he dies is the Warlord; once your opponent starts losing units the Patriarch's Fearless bubbles become progressively less important and the Maguses are just Summons receptacles. They're exactly as expendable
You use terrain for cover saves, also with los blocking terrain they can only kill what they can see in overwatch then you can charge in with the reat of the unit.
My lists usually are running more then 30kp 6 being charecters. Depending on what you play having 4 shrieks helps as well as getting a summon for more neophytes.
I practice ITC and ETC missions and massive msu with large neophyte units are what we found to work best so far. Neophytes absorbe overwatch and tie things up for the acolytes and metomorphs
I haven't looked carefully at the rules but would a squad overwatching in a vehicle be able to shoot at any unit that declares a charge since they're not engaged by units making the assault?
vercingatorix wrote: I haven't looked carefully at the rules but would a squad overwatching in a vehicle be able to shoot at any unit that declares a charge since they're not engaged by units making the assault?
That's right - but they can still only Overwatch once per turn, so as long as you're not charging in with a single unit at a time (which you shouldn't be, ever) then it's not a big deal.
Using terrain is a good idea, like Moose said, but be careful because even at 3" your charges can whiff and going through DT makes that more likely. Another thing to bear in mind when you're doing this is unit placement; your assault moves have to be done in a very specific way, and if you're playing a rules lawyer (or at a tournament or something) then you need to make sure you place your sacrificial Overwatch lambs correctly, otherwise they can clog up the charging lines for your other units, preventing your more killy units from engaging fully or potentially cutting some of them off altogether. If your Neophytes get in but your Purestrains don't, you're gonna have a bad time.
im curious if Tank shock becomes a big disadvantage to the GSC since the only unit giving fearless is the patriarch. I see guys running multi units of genestealers. However without fearless they become more susceptible to Tank Shocks. MSU and gladius could preform this pretty well.
Is this a correct assumption or false ?
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Its why im still trying to figure out a Mech GSC army
zedsdead wrote: im curious if Tank shock becomes a big disadvantage to the GSC since the only unit giving fearless is the patriarch. I see guys running multi units of genestealers. However without fearless they become more susceptible to Tank Shocks. MSU and gladius could preform this pretty well.
Is this a correct assumption or false ?
i also wonder how they preform against Lots of Wverns or TFCs ? Barrage blasts would be pretty brutal against them.
Its why im still trying to figure out a Mech GSC army
Both of those are problems yes, but not ones we're incapable of addressing. First off, you should be able to get the drop on artillery. If not, then MSU limits the damage that they can do. After all, a Thundefire can only kill one unit a turn, and if the largest happens to be 5 models, his waste. But its definitely better to charge the artillery first and not get shot at. Same with tanks, we have plenty of CC anti tank to deal with them, so kill them before they can shock! Patriarchs are also very useful there for fearless, one reason why many people take a few extra in a CAD.
or gene stealers all with scything talons. Shame the patriarch isn't a "squad upgrade" anymore haha.
Inquisition List. I'm still playing around with the points and such but I know its kind of cheezy. I will have my two Magus and a Patriarch trying to learn Summons, the other one learn biomancy and the inquisition learn divination. Make my opponent re-roll the seize or i can reroll because of coteaz. Have the Inquisition be my Distraction 
Mission was deathlock and the first and second turn I got so much tactical objectives I thought I could still pull this off! But 3 knights that could divide all their shots was a bit to much. In the end all 6 objectives were worth 2 
Keep playing multible small units....
). I might be misremembering, but I think the ones in the Demolition Claw were able to reroll the scatter results regardless of proximity to the formation's rockgrinders, just they had to be within a certain distance to recover charges after being thrown. Regardless, they are quite fun when aboard the formation's 'grinders. Nothing likes the prospect of 2-3 S8 AP2 pieplates with rerolls to hit and pen.
