Arbitrator wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.

Try reading any of the books before griping about this.

"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.

All the more reason to change it back then.

So we're going to change "Adeptus Astartes" back to "Space Marines"?

It's not changing back. It doesn't need changing back. If you're so upset over it, then tear the cover off your book or whatever.

As it stands?
You're not going to make fetch happen, Gretchen. The name's here, it's staying. Get over it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.

Try reading any of the books before griping about this.

"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.

All the more reason to change it back then.

So we're going to change "Adeptus Astartes" back to "Space Marines"?

It's not changing back. It doesn't need changing back. If you're so upset over it, then tear the cover off your book or whatever.

As it stands?
You're not going to make fetch happen, Gretchen. The name's here, it's staying. Get over it.

I don't know anyone, not even the staff at Lenton Lane who use the term Astra Militarum.... nor the term Adeptus Astartes..... Keeping in mind Adeptus Astartes has been in the fluff since what.... the 3rd edition? Maybe 2nd?

Everyone just uses the term space marines and the only people I've seen use Astra Militarum are new people to the hobby who need to ask who the imperial guard are.

The name change is so stupid mostly because the Imperial Guard got a pseudo latin name that means 'Star Soldiers'.... while the Imperial Navy.... is still called the Imperial Navy. Actually a mate of mine brought up the point that Astra Militarum would suit the Imperial Navy more seeing they are actually soldiers... who fight in space

TLDR Version: Screw you geedubs, why try to fix something that wasn't broke. I bet 100% that the name change wouldn't off happened under GW's current leadership.

Oh no, it certainly would have. It just would have been likely done with something like the fact that every single Loyalist Marine book that's sold right now has "Adeptus Astartes" on the cover above the 'army' name.

Don't believe me? Go look at Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels.

Or look at the two Mechanicus books. Both say "Adeptus Mechanicus" over the army names.

It would probably have been "Astra Militarum: Imperial Guard", just like Tempestus probably would have been "Astra Militarum: Militarum Tempestus".

But both of those books were done before we started seeing that change.

Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

Well I use a lot of bloodreavers, who have average bravery and are even squishier than guardsmen, and the Battleshock system doesn't do them that much harm. There's ways to work around it.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

No, because we won't take blobs. The opponent will kill a squad and that'll be it.

 Flanker wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

For every 10 models alive during the Battleshock phase, you get +1 to your Bravery.

A blob of 200 models that loses 70 models would have a Bravery bonus of +13.
On something like Bloodreavers, which are Bravery 5(which is about 'average' for the human stuff)? You need a way to Ignore Battleshock Tests(For Bloodreavers, it's a Bloodsecrator planting his standard and giving something like 18" of "NOPE!" to Battleshock Tests) in order to not lose models if you're fielding something akin to a "blob" of low armor, high volume models.

You would be, in that scenario, Bravery 18(Bravery 5+13 for the 130 models remaining alive).
You lost 70 models.
You roll your D6 and add the 70 to it.
You're looking at anywhere from 53 to 58 more models being removed, since you take the result and subtract your Bravery value from it.

I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

It's like the scale is returning to a skirmish size game, except that skirmish is composed of absolutely massive expensive constructs, mechs, and rampaging demigods instead of regular soldiers.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

Not so fast...

This was one of the charges leveled at the AoS starter set with Stormcast versus Khorne.

Stormcast are multi-wound, fairly significant save models. The "basic" Stormcast is 2 Wounds with a save of a 4+.
Khorne Bloodbound range the gamut from the Khorgorath(the gribbly skull monster) with 8 Wounds and a 4+ Save to 1W Bloodreavers with no save at all.
When you lose Bloodreavers, you lose them quickly.

"But Kan that just sounds boring! I'll be scooping people up left and right from Battleshock tests!".
Nope. That's why they have a unit called a "Bloodsecrator". That's the Battle Standard Bearer equivalent. He grants an 18 inch aura allowing any unit with "Khorne" to not have to take Battleshock tests and gain an additional attack.

So let's say you're in a combat with Bloodreavers versus Stormcast Liberators or Prosecutors. Both are 2W with 4+ Save. In a combat with Retributors? 3W with a 4+ Save.
You lose something like 6 Bloodreavers to the combat, the Stormcast player loses a model.
If he fails his Battleshock tests?
He flatout loses another model.

Net result? You lost some expendable chaff units, he lost an elite Big Tasty.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

It's like the scale is returning to a skirmish size game, except that skirmish is composed of absolutely massive expensive constructs, mechs, and rampaging demigods instead of regular soldiers.

On the face of it maybe, but at the moment we have no idea the affects of morale boosting stuff will have.
Commissars could simply shoot one guy in the head to have you ignore it completely,
Ork Nobs with boss poles could "break some heads" to ignore it too (i.e they'd probably not change in that regard)

I mean, how often now do you see anyone using things like Company/Regimental standards and such?
They could go from never used and virtually useless to a Super-awesome and helpful effect in the new system, and people would have to actually make a decision to use them or get another fancy gun
(Instead of always going for the gun)

Jbz` wrote:
On the face of it maybe, but at the moment we have no idea the affects of morale boosting stuff will have.
Commissars could simply shoot one guy in the head to have you ignore it completely,
Ork Nobs with boss poles could "break some heads" to ignore it too (i.e they'd probably not change in that regard)

I mean, how often now do you see anyone using things like Company/Regimental standards and such?
They could go from never used and virtually useless to a Super-awesome and helpful effect in the new system, and people would have to actually make a decision to use them or get another fancy gun
(Instead of always going for the gun)

This is freaky! I just said the exact same thing in another thread!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm late to the discussion again, but if it's true that 40k is being Sigmarised then I'm very happy.

About morale. Battleshock doesn't hurt hoards. It actually works out very well for them. Your bravery is increased by 1 for every ten models in the unit. Units also have banners to affect battleshock and characters can grant abilities to help out too. Case in point, Bloodbound Bloodreavers only have a Bravery of 5 and no save, so on paper they're vulnerable to Battleshock. However, because of their icon bearer and the amount I take in a unit, they actually average out at Bravery 7-8 for me. On average, I only lose a couple of Bloodreavers a turn to Battleshock, if I even lose any at all. And that is only when they aren't under the effects of the Bloodsecrator's Portal Of Skulls. When they are under it's effects, they don't take Battleshock tests at all.

This can all be easily replicated in 40k. Imperial Guard infantry blobs and Ork Mobs would probably get a leadership/bravery stat of 7-10 after the size and other bonuses are taking into account. And in the case of the Guard, the Commissar will probably have an ability to inflict mortal wounds (these are automatic wounds with no saves) on the unit in exchange for taking no battleshock. And I can easily imagine that an Ork bosspole could function exactly like an Orruk Skull Icon, which grants a 6+ save against fleeing.

Someone also mentioned this idea that I quite like; 40k's shooting being resolved like combat in AoS. Player who's turn it is picks one unit to shoot with, then other player picks a unit to shoot with, then the previous player picks another unit to shoot with and so on and so forth, representing a realistic gunfight with both sides dropping. Suppressing abilities can prevent a unit from shooting.

Chargers going first is also a step in the right direction. Now charging will be worth it for all those low initiative armies.

I will admit that you guys make some good points; we theoretically have a lot of stuff to mitigate nasty morale issues. As per my "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" stance, I can see GW has many options available to make IG and other horde style armies quite viable, if not competitive. Between Ld based characters and standards, the latter of which could really use improvement, IG could potentially transition very well into 8th.

...But will GW do that?

On a side note, does AoS have anything that really compares to vehicles in 40k? How do things from that angle? I've heard because AoS Monsters become weaker per wound suffered, the disparity between MCs and vehicles should shrink considerably, so maybe that could be a good sign?

There are just so many mixed messages between "escalating the power creep" and "slowing or even reversing the power creep," I'm just not sure what to make of things. But I'll try to dial back on the naysaying.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I will admit that you guys make some good points; we theoretically have a lot of stuff to mitigate nasty morale issues. As per my "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" stance, I can see GW has many options available to make IG and other horde style armies quite viable, if not competitive. Between Ld based characters and standards, the latter of which could really use improvement, IG could potentially transition very well into 8th.

...But will GW do that?

On a side note, does AoS have anything that really compares to vehicles in 40k? How do things from that angle? I've heard because AoS Monsters become weaker per wound suffered, the disparity between MCs and vehicles should shrink considerably, so maybe that could be a good sign?

There are just so many mixed messages between "escalating the power creep" and "slowing or even reversing the power creep," I'm just not sure what to make of things. But I'll try to dial back on the naysaying.

Steam tanks and other artificial contraptions in AoS become weaker as damage piles-up, same as monsters. In fact, AoS doesn't "really" make a distinction between monster and warmachine but their roles: big warmachines and beasts are classified as behemoths (and hardcapped) while long range platforms or monsters count as artillery.

There's plenty of abilities that allow to ignore widespread battleshock: Freeguilds (which would be the IG equivalent) ignore battleshock on 1s (2s too with a formation). Dispossed have standards that halve casualties from battleshock. So you can assume that if they introduce battleshock they'll give the guard some means to dealing with it.

Everybody's jumping to a lot of conclusions here. The rules are changing, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the same as AoS, by any means. How about we wait until the new ed drops before we start saying the end is nigh for IG?

 Flanker wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

Trust me, as a Skaven player those +1's matter not. Unless you have a character whom can make your units immune to Battleshock you will bleed models. And if you do you can guarantee they will be the first to be sniped.

In addition to the +1 morale for every 10, many units get bonuses making them stronger in numbers. For instance, with the Free Peoples (closest IG equivalent) their crossbowmen get to shoot twice if they have twenty or more models, their handgunners get +1 to hit if they have 20 or more models, their archers get to re-roll 1s and 2s to hit at 20 or more models and re-roll all failed hits at 30 models. Their State Troops (spear, halberdiers, swordsmen) get +1 to hit at 20, +2 to hit at 30 and +4 to hit at 40.

So a lot of "horde" type units get stronger as you add to them. More elite units (like Greatswords) get no such bonuses.

I haven't played AoS yet. I've been dusting off my WHFB Orcs & Goblins (now Orruks & Grots) army and reading up on the rules. It seems like it's a bit of a tradeoff where you get much more powerful units by running them in big hordes while at the same time you can do a good job of capturing multiple objectives with MSU. I'm thinking I'm going to form my Orcs with choppas and my Goblins with spears into big units while running my arrer boyz as MSU.

Now if only there was a way to bring such units in numbers that actually mattered without artificially handicapping yourself....

Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

To be fair, horde needs help more than non-horde.

But it's bad that if IG need to be played as horde blobs.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NivlacSupreme wrote:
Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

To be fair, horde needs help more than non-horde.

But it's bad that if IG need to be played as horde blobs.

I think the overall hope is that Platoons will finally be more useful with morale and that hopeful chance that IG vehicles and elites will be good as well.

A discussion about this came up the other night with some friends of mine. Understand, most of us have given up on GW in general, but, still each of us has a Guard army. One has Mordians, one has Steel Legion, and I have Catachans.

Discussion went to Regiment Doctrines. What would have what. Instead of just broad Doctrines because what army you have, we went to the idea of the older SM HQ choices. Certain HQ choices would let you unlock certain options.

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Mordian HQ choice: Each infantry squad gains stuborn.

Catachan HQ choice: all non vehicles gain Stealth, move through cover.

Just ideas to run with.

Whether Doctrines are embodied as Characters or some other mechanic, is less important than their return in the first place. Also, Stubborn is kinda weak compared to "Free" Chimeras. No reason why the Catachans vehicles shouldn't get Dozer Blades and Camo Nets for "free" - is there some notion that those options are too powerful to be free in a Catachan force?

 martin74 wrote:

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Never, ever. Free stuff is cancer of 40k.
I would give them Pinning or twinlinked after they disembark. Or Chimeras give 4+ or 5+ cover to their own squad, as Aroured Shield formation gives...

 Hawky wrote:

 martin74 wrote:

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Never, ever. Free stuff is cancer of 40k.
I would give them Pinning or twinlinked after they disembark. Or Chimeras give 4+ or 5+ cover to their own squad, as Aroured Shield formation gives...

My ideas for steel legion:
Maybe their chimeras could ignore crew shaken/stunned results on a 4+
Steel legion would count as stationary after disembarking for purposes of shooting.
Preferred enemy: Orks
If lasgun variants are introduced, they would have their Armageddon pattern Carbines: 18" S3 AP- Assault 1; 12" S3 AP- Assault 2

These were not solid ideas. Just brainstorming.

 martin74 wrote:
These were not solid ideas. Just brainstorming.

I've been doing a lot of brainstorming myself, but with the next edition rumored to flip 40k on it's head, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting my time. Everything we once took for granted is now up in the air.

My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

Here's what the future holds for the Imperial Guard: more pointless wishlisting threads with players acting like they're expert game designers, like GW doesn't care about them despite them having the biggest miniature range in all of 40K, and that's about it.

8th is very likely going to be awesome and a very good thing for armies which have been sidelined "recently", including the IG, just wait and see...

 master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If they screw it up enough, I'll probably play my own homebrew hybrid of 5th and 7th. We'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
.

8th is very likely going to be awesome and a very good thing for armies which have been sidelined "recently", including the IG, just wait and see...

Bahahaha
We all know it's going to become HEROHAMMER 40k: Age of PRIMARCHS. Nids and Orks could feasibly get better in such a setting, but the IG could potentially become sidelined or neglected. At this point we can only speculate, but our prospects don't look good with Cadia being annihilated and every gathering storm release shunning the Imperial Guard.

 master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If you're committing to Oldhammer, 5th Edition is where you should go.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If you're committing to Oldhammer, 5th Edition is where you should go.

Back to vehicles having the ability to shrug off a (potential) unlimited amount of penetrating hits?
GW may have weakened them a bit too much with HP rules bt at least they can be killed without having to roll multiple 6's in a row now

Jbz` wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If you're committing to Oldhammer, 5th Edition is where you should go.

Back to vehicles having the ability to shrug off a (potential) unlimited amount of penetrating hits?
GW may have weakened them a bit too much with HP rules bt at least they can be killed without having to roll multiple 6's in a row now

Perhaps a hybrid is in order then?

CplPunishment wrote:
[Bahahaha
We all know it's going to become HEROHAMMER 40k: Age of PRIMARCHS. Nids and Orks could feasibly get better in such a setting, but the IG could potentially become sidelined or neglected. At this point we can only speculate, but our prospects don't look good with Cadia being annihilated and every gathering storm release shunning the Imperial Guard.

The 'Human Space Marines' AKA Storm Troopers (AKA Temperate Skyones) will be pushed to the forefront, whilst the Imperial Guard will be relegated to position Sisters occupied. As you say, Tyranids and Orks could improve just because it's 'easy' to handwave them either improving their basic stats or throwing a dozen more elite/HeroHammer characters their way. The Imperial Guard are pretty much the only faction where they can't do this. The Temperature Sharkon codex already reads like Mini-Space Marines with their chapte- uhh, regimental names and hilariously OTT recruitment and training regimes.

The SoB will be spared by the mercy of GW because in the Noble Brightness of the 42nd Millenium, for all the previous neglect, they at least wear power armour and are therefore worthy of further ascension. They're also fan favourites and so giving them a boost will help further the "golden age111!" meme.

For all my (very) cynical and consistent ranting, I hope I'm wrong. Very wrong. But as both an Imperial Guard and Cadian player, it's so damn hard for me to be optimistic even whilst everybody else chirps about how amazing GW apparently is now.

morgoth wrote:
Here's what the future holds for the Imperial Guard: more pointless wishlisting threads with players acting like they're expert game designers, like GW doesn't care about them despite them having the biggest miniature range in all of 40K, and that's about it.

8th is very likely going to be awesome and a very good thing for armies which have been sidelined "recently", including the IG, just wait and see...

People also said the AoS rumours would be proven wrong and we should all 'wait and see' and surely GW (praise be, oh Lords of the Power Armour, grant thee thy monthly Space Marine release) would not be so monumentally stupid as to kill off both the setting and gameline. Then when it became clear it was happening, the usual cultists also said that we should stop being cynical whiners when the first leaks of 'four pages of rules' came out as surely there would be more than that. They were also touting the usual nonsense when we were worried that the lore and releases were going to be nothing but Sigmarines.

Low and behold...

CplPunishment wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If you're committing to Oldhammer, 5th Edition is where you should go.

Back to vehicles having the ability to shrug off a (potential) unlimited amount of penetrating hits?
GW may have weakened them a bit too much with HP rules bt at least they can be killed without having to roll multiple 6's in a row now

Perhaps a hybrid is in order then?

Probably. It's not a hard thing to fix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
People also said the AoS rumours would be proven wrong and we should all 'wait and see' and surely GW (praise be, oh Lords of the Power Armour, grant thee thy monthly Space Marine release) would not be so monumentally stupid as to kill off both the setting and gameline. Then when it became clear it was happening, the usual cultists also said that we should stop being cynical whiners when the first leaks of 'four pages of rules' came out as surely there would be more than that. They were also touting the usual nonsense when we were worried that the lore and releases were going to be nothing but Sigmarines.

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

I see 8th edition going heavy on the poster boy of the brand, that being a SM. Boring boring SMs.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.

Try reading any of the books before griping about this.

"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.

All the more reason to change it back then.

Damn straight.

I don't see why it can't be both Imperial Guard and Astra Militarum at the same time.

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it was worth killing off WHFB for this!"

I wouldn't say it was necessarily worth getting rid of WHFB entirely, but it definitely does not have the depth of a puddle. It definitely involves a lot more actual decision making than 40k, which is a mostly mindless endeavour that basically plays itself at this point (which makes it impressive how they've managed to fill 5 hours with what amounts to disputing the rules).

 Arbitrator wrote:

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it wasn't worth killing off WHFB for this!"

The feth they aren't or can't. AoS is a vastly superior game, if only for the clarity that it imposes over the muddling nonsense that came before it. And it's not like the core gameplay of move-shoot-fight changed that much. Nor the d6 rolling.

FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it wasn't worth killing off WHFB for this!"

The feth they aren't or can't. AoS is a vastly superior game, if only for the clarity that it imposes over the muddling nonsense that came before it. And it's not like the core gameplay of move-shoot-fight changed that much. Nor the d6 rolling.

FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

It's hard to fanboy over WHFB when I was/am the first to admit that it was a rather bloated, sometimes convoluted and imperfect beast. With that being said, it was still a lot more balanced than 40k and at least entire swathes Army Books weren't downright unplayable. Plus, every time you went for a game there was a good chance that your opponent was fielding something other than Sigmarines.

Movement was one of the most important mechanics in WHFB, if not THE most important, whilst in AoS it's a bare bones skirmish game.

The reason I loathe the atmosphere surrounding the AoS community is that it's propped up by a huge chunk of people who defend their game by being outright gleeful that WHFB had to die to get them Baby's First 40k. If AoS was released as a side-game or even a mainline release (like Lord of the Rings was) alongside of it I could not have cared less. I've even looked into maybe having another crack at it with the new Dwarfs, but then I see how much of a parade is made out of "its good WHFB died! This was totally worth it!". That, and almost (literally) every single WHFB player I knew abandoned GW completely over the mess.

WFB8 was mindless and stultifying

Spoken like somebody who's obviously never played it, whilst defending a game with four pages of rules. My gripe is, and will always be, why the two games could not exist side-by-side.

The reason I hate the AoS fanbase at large is because it's propped up by a huge chunk of people who defend their game by being outright gleeful that WHFB had to die to get them Baby's First 40k

Because previous WHFB players certainly have been mature in this fight, praying and hoping that AoS would die and that GW would be ruined over and were very quick to.. Well do what your doing now given the constant insults that have started and have yet to even come close to stopping. Honestly I believe that sentiment started specifically because the former players certainly continue the insults to this very day. If they enjoy it but get harped on for enjoying it why should they care about the former system and it's antagonistic players?

Spoken like somebody who's obviously never played it, whilst defending a game with four pages of rules.

Exactly what I mean. I used to play WHFB, but seeing this is reminding me how bitterly people continue to fight on.

This is all very offtopic however.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The reason I hate the AoS fanbase at large is because it's propped up by a huge chunk of people who defend their game by being outright gleeful that WHFB had to die to get them Baby's First 40k

Because previous WHFB players certainly have been mature in this fight, praying and hoping that AoS would die and that GW would be ruined over and were very quick to.. Well do what your doing now given the constant insults that have started and have yet to even come close to stopping. Honestly I believe that sentiment started specifically because the former players certainly continue the insults to this very day. If they enjoy it but get harped on for enjoying it why should they care about the former system and it's antagonistic players?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of former WHFB left for greener pastures long ago. The people who enjoy AoS outnumber the remnants, who seem to largely (including me) be here for the 40k content. This of course is an Imperial Guard thread where the discussion bled over. I don't make a point of actively hunting down AoS content to slag off, but when I see the usual "lol whfb dying was good!" posts I feel compelled to roll my eyes and respond.

Exactly what I mean. I used to play WHFB, but seeing this is reminding me how bitterly people continue to fight on.

This is all very offtopic however.

When a game is twenty-something old and its fanbase gets the rug pulled out of it then there is going to be bitterness, just as how I fully expect AoS fans to defend their game.

Although yes, it is off-topic.

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't say it was necessarily worth getting rid of WHFB entirely, but it definitely does not have the depth of a puddle. It definitely involves a lot more actual decision making than 40k, which is a mostly mindless endeavour that basically plays itself at this point (which makes it impressive how they've managed to fill 5 hours with what amounts to disputing the rules).

I would really argue that point. WHFB had block and line movement, your unit could only advance forwards and only see forwards, and thus manoeuvring was exceptionally important, and required a lot of planning. Flank and Rear charges where hard to get but if you could then you could easily massacre a far larger enemy unit. A good portion of the game took place in the movement phase, with opponents trying to position themselves for a powerful charge or defend their flanks against encroachment. Committing to a charge was a big thing, and many was the game that was won or lost by the choices in the movement phase.

AoS is laughable in comparison. Your units can see everywhere, dont have to worry about facing, wheeling or turning and can quite happily run everywhere. Hell, you can shoot into combat with no penalty. In WHFB committing a unit to combat meant that neither side could shoot the fighting units. In AoS if a unit fails morale it loses a few models. In WHFB if a unit was broken by the enemy charge, or repulsed by attrition it would flee and could quite easily leave the board. In AoS if you cause a enemy unit to take morale it affects only that unit. In WHFB causing units to flee could cause other units that where close enough to check morale too. It was possible for an entire battle line to panic and flee when the main blocks broke.

AoS has nothing when it comes to tactical depth. Sure, after a few drinks it is still playable, but its rules are so pathetically shallow that it makes some of the home brewed fantasy wargames available free online seem like an abstraction of Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War'.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it wasn't worth killing off WHFB for this!"

The feth they aren't or can't. AoS is a vastly superior game, if only for the clarity that it imposes over the muddling nonsense that came before it. And it's not like the core gameplay of move-shoot-fight changed that much. Nor the d6 rolling.

FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

No, WHFB had problems yes, but they where not the systems fault. At its core the basic system still worked. What went wrong was a certain someones idea that the best way to improve the game was to treble the model count and someone elses idea that the best way to fix the Heavy Cavalry meta was not to make formed spear and pike blocks effective against horse (as they where historically), but to replace the "Whomever charges first strikes first" with "Initiative Striking" (okay, thats not so bad), add in "Stepup" (once again, it was okay) and make Light Cavalry insanely manoeuvrable, with the ability to free reform, march and shoot, freely manoeuvre and run away from charging opponents, but rally automatically. Oh and premeasuring. In a game of fantasy you had laser guided cannons and always knew if you where in range or not.
And then someone else had the insane idea that, in a game based around the medieval to renaissance period, giving all the popular armies massed cheap shooting units for their basic infantry was a good idea. It did not end well.

Oh, and the magic phase. Something needs to be said here, because whomever thought that the old "battery Wizard" setup needed to come back along with "Randumb Magic Power", and that magic needed to become a vast game changer that the whole game hinged on was insane. Consequently this idea was copied into the 40K psychic phase where it is still hated to this day.

All in all the fan made 9th edition has proven to be extremely popular, mainly because it fixed the glaring issues that had been repeatedly pointed out to the company.

Soo.... about those Imperial Guardsmanz....

CplPunishment wrote:
Soo.... about those Imperial Guardsmanz....

They need a buff, yes.

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Soo.... about those Imperial Guardsmanz....

They need a buff, yes.

*off topic*: I think your post was articulated very well, and I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. That being said, let's bring this back to 40k and the IG

*back on topic*: I suspect GW will never NEVER make a balanced game. They will address complaints and fix problems, but every edition they publish will have a new, glaring flaw in the system. Why? so that they can sell you the next edition of 40k the following year that "fixes all the problems"(but creates still more). The game will never be fixed and the guard will never be fixed. Methinks it's up to us to write our own rules. Kinda like WHFB 9TH.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it wasn't worth killing off WHFB for this!"

The feth they aren't or can't. AoS is a vastly superior game, if only for the clarity that it imposes over the muddling nonsense that came before it. And it's not like the core gameplay of move-shoot-fight changed that much. Nor the d6 rolling.

FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

It's hard to fanboy over WHFB when I was/am the first to admit that it was a rather bloated, sometimes convoluted and imperfect beast. With that being said, it was still a lot more balanced than 40k and at least entire swathes Army Books weren't downright unplayable. Plus, every time you went for a game there was a good chance that your opponent was fielding something other than Sigmarines.

Movement was one of the most important mechanics in WHFB, if not THE most important, whilst in AoS it's a bare bones skirmish game.

The reason I loathe the atmosphere surrounding the AoS community is that it's propped up by a huge chunk of people who defend their game by being outright gleeful that WHFB had to die to get them Baby's First 40k. If AoS was released as a side-game or even a mainline release (like Lord of the Rings was) alongside of it I could not have cared less. I've even looked into maybe having another crack at it with the new Dwarfs, but then I see how much of a parade is made out of "its good WHFB died! This was totally worth it!". That, and almost (literally) every single WHFB player I knew abandoned GW completely over the mess.

WFB8 was mindless and stultifying

Spoken like somebody who's obviously never played it, whilst defending a game with four pages of rules. My gripe is, and will always be, why the two games could not exist side-by-side.

Dude, you sound very angry.

Plus, I'm ready to bet your hat that you've never played AoS, especially not its current incarnation.

And yes, I think that in many ways, it's good that WHFB died, because now people who want to play GW fantasy have people to play with who are enthusiastic about the future.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't say it was necessarily worth getting rid of WHFB entirely, but it definitely does not have the depth of a puddle. It definitely involves a lot more actual decision making than 40k, which is a mostly mindless endeavour that basically plays itself at this point (which makes it impressive how they've managed to fill 5 hours with what amounts to disputing the rules).

I would really argue that point. WHFB had block and line movement, your unit could only advance forwards and only see forwards, and thus manoeuvring was exceptionally important, and required a lot of planning. Flank and Rear charges where hard to get but if you could then you could easily massacre a far larger enemy unit. A good portion of the game took place in the movement phase, with opponents trying to position themselves for a powerful charge or defend their flanks against encroachment. Committing to a charge was a big thing, and many was the game that was won or lost by the choices in the movement phase.

AoS is laughable in comparison. Your units can see everywhere, dont have to worry about facing, wheeling or turning and can quite happily run everywhere. Hell, you can shoot into combat with no penalty. In WHFB committing a unit to combat meant that neither side could shoot the fighting units. In AoS if a unit fails morale it loses a few models. In WHFB if a unit was broken by the enemy charge, or repulsed by attrition it would flee and could quite easily leave the board. In AoS if you cause a enemy unit to take morale it affects only that unit. In WHFB causing units to flee could cause other units that where close enough to check morale too. It was possible for an entire battle line to panic and flee when the main blocks broke.

AoS has nothing when it comes to tactical depth. Sure, after a few drinks it is still playable, but its rules are so pathetically shallow that it makes some of the home brewed fantasy wargames available free online seem like an abstraction of Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War'.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

And yet, AoS is still far and away superior to WFB 7E/8E. Hands down.

Not really. They're two completely and totally different games. They're so different they can't even be compared.

But if we're going into this type of discussion... it's Baby's First Wargame with all the depth of a puddle, with one of the most obnoxious, cult-like fanbases around because they're so desperate to prove to everybody "i-i-it wasn't worth killing off WHFB for this!"

The feth they aren't or can't. AoS is a vastly superior game, if only for the clarity that it imposes over the muddling nonsense that came before it. And it's not like the core gameplay of move-shoot-fight changed that much. Nor the d6 rolling.

FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

No, WHFB had problems yes, but they where not the systems fault. At its core the basic system still worked. What went wrong was a certain someones idea that the best way to improve the game was to treble the model count and someone elses idea that the best way to fix the Heavy Cavalry meta was not to make formed spear and pike blocks effective against horse (as they where historically), but to replace the "Whomever charges first strikes first" with "Initiative Striking" (okay, thats not so bad), add in "Stepup" (once again, it was okay) and make Light Cavalry insanely manoeuvrable, with the ability to free reform, march and shoot, freely manoeuvre and run away from charging opponents, but rally automatically. Oh and premeasuring. In a game of fantasy you had laser guided cannons and always knew if you where in range or not.
And then someone else had the insane idea that, in a game based around the medieval to renaissance period, giving all the popular armies massed cheap shooting units for their basic infantry was a good idea. It did not end well.

Oh, and the magic phase. Something needs to be said here, because whomever thought that the old "battery Wizard" setup needed to come back along with "Randumb Magic Power", and that magic needed to become a vast game changer that the whole game hinged on was insane. Consequently this idea was copied into the 40K psychic phase where it is still hated to this day.

All in all the fan made 9th edition has proven to be extremely popular, mainly because it fixed the glaring issues that had been repeatedly pointed out to the company.

The proverbial bulb lighted. Yeah, I guess I expected too much.

And that means?

 master of ordinance wrote:
And that means?

That I think this line of conversation is done for and there's no meaning in arguing with you, since it will be a waste of time. And that I'm tired of doing the same argument again and again to speak with a wall.

If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Go tell that to the vermin swarm or the demonic legions. T9A is a decent tournament system but it has screwed multiple armies and opened its own can of problems. But this is the future of IG not AoS/T9A/WHFB, and I think we've ragged hard enough.

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Soo.... about those Imperial Guardsmanz....

They need a buff, yes.

*off topic*: I think your post was articulated very well, and I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. That being said, let's bring this back to 40k and the IG

*back on topic*: I suspect GW will never NEVER make a balanced game. They will address complaints and fix problems, but every edition they publish will have a new, glaring flaw in the system. Why? so that they can sell you the next edition of 40k the following year that "fixes all the problems"(but creates still more). The game will never be fixed and the guard will never be fixed. Methinks it's up to us to write our own rules. Kinda like WHFB 9TH.

I have to disagree that GW will NEVER make a balanced game, as they already have. It's called Blood Bowl. Although, it's so different from 40k, WHFB, and AoS that it admittedly is a comparison of apples to oranges, but, GW is not completely incompetent as many might claim when they actually use living rulebooks and pay close attention to its player base as a whole. It also helps that no single team really feels like the "poster boys," so no particular team is played super heavily or more powerful than the others.

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Soo.... about those Imperial Guardsmanz....

They need a buff, yes.

*off topic*: I think your post was articulated very well, and I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments. That being said, let's bring this back to 40k and the IG

*back on topic*: I suspect GW will never NEVER make a balanced game. They will address complaints and fix problems, but every edition they publish will have a new, glaring flaw in the system. Why? so that they can sell you the next edition of 40k the following year that "fixes all the problems"(but creates still more). The game will never be fixed and the guard will never be fixed. Methinks it's up to us to write our own rules. Kinda like WHFB 9TH.

I have to disagree that GW will NEVER make a balanced game, as they already have. It's called Blood Bowl. Although, it's so different from 40k, WHFB, and AoS that it admittedly is a comparison of apples to oranges, but, GW is not completely incompetent as many might claim when they actually use living rulebooks and pay close attention to its player base as a whole. It also helps that no single team really feels like the "poster boys," so no particular team is played super heavily or more powerful than the others.

I was talking, of course, about their two main games, not specialist games. Allow me to ammend my post to make it more concise: GW will never adequately fix the core rules or balance the codexes, not when they can charge players 50$ for a Codex or 80$ for core rules that supposedly "fix" the game or "buff" a faction. Mark my words: cost of rules will rise even as frequency of updates increases. The situation has become untenable. I want more mileage out of my army/rules!

https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.

 vim_the_good wrote:
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.

What I find most interesting is them saying: "You no longer needing it (carapace and flakk)". Power-armored guardsmen? What is going on...

 vim_the_good wrote:
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.

I think It's just a fluff piece. The release schedule seems way too tight between now and June for guard to get any releases, and I doubt they'd be teasing anything coming further down the line than then anyway.

 vim_the_good wrote:
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.

It's about the new citadel tools.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.

Spoken like somebody who's obviously never played it, whilst defending a game with four pages of rules.

U mad, bro?

Point of fact, I did play WFB8, and I didn't enjoy it. It was stupid and mindless and unbalanced. "Ooh.. IF Purple Sun?" "GG."

My group completely stopped playing Fantasy after our second game of 8E. 8E killed WFB for us because it stopped being fun.

AoS, I can start over with. The 4 pages of core rules are easy enough to learn, as is having ALL of the unit-specific rules printed right there on the unit sheet. But you go on being butthurt over AoS being more successful than WFB 8, in a thread that's supposed to be about wishlisting Imperial Guard.

And getting back on topic, it's not obvious that IG will fare any better under 40k 8E, which is really too bad. 8E should be the chance to reset and rebalance. *sigh*

Although, I suppose that if the new edition does indeed replace AP with Rend and modified armor saves, seeing as most weapons should be Rend - or Rend -1, that means hopefully regular infantry will get to actually make saves without necessarily relying on cover alone. If current AP5 weapons become Rend -1, that's a 6+ in the open as opposed to no save at all in the open, but I guess it sucks to be Orks or Nids. I feel that's more likely than bolters and equivalent becoming Rend -, though all of the horde armies would probably love that. Not sure how cover and invul saves will count. Maybe cover will modify your generic save, and perhaps Invul will be a separate save immune to Rend or any other modifiers and never rerollable?

Mostly speculation, but if GW does something like that it could address a lot of long-standing issues, like rerollable 2++ death stars and the inherent weakness of non-MEQ basic infantry.

Also curious to see what happens to psychic come 8th. Obviously Daemons and Invis death stars need to be toned the feth down, and Tau and Necrons really need some way to deal with it (aside being told "L2P and ally SoS/Culexus, skrub"). Whether or not powers are added or removed and whether random power generation continues could seriously impact the utility of IG psyker support. On one hand, I'd love to pay for the 4++ and Rending Divination powers, but I think opponents would start to grumble about it, plus buying specific powers would outright break Invis as it currently is.

but I guess it sucks to be Orks or Nids

At least 'Ard boyz might actually have a purpose.

It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

Assuming they translate current stats in this way, this will BENEFIT GEQs vs MEQS. Think about it: guardsmen aren't used to getting armor saves in the open against marines, but suddenly your autocannons and heavy bolters are forcing them to make saves on 6s....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is bad news for power armor, but if terminator armor is 3+ on 2d6, terminators might start seeing some use again. ..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This system would make our current cheap heavy/special weapons need to be a bit more expensive for the sake of game balance...
And we might start seeing sigmari.... uh, I mean numarines with 2wounds base....

I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.

Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.

Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.

So AP4 weapons like autocannons and heavy bolters become rend -0?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.

Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.

That'd still result in the same spamming of Ap 3 or less weapons we have now.

I'd say:
Ap -/6 = No modifier
Ap 5/4 = -1
Ap 3 = -2
Ap 2 = -3
Ap1 = -4

Then just tone done the excessive access to powerful invulnerable saves (Storm Shields etc).
And FNP and RP boosting effects.

Jbz` wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.

Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.

That'd still result in the same spamming of Ap 3 or less weapons we have now.

I'd say:
Ap -/6 = No modifier
Ap 5/4 = -1
Ap 3 = -2
Ap 2 = -3
Ap1 = -4

Then just tone done the excessive access to powerful invulnerable saves (Storm Shields etc).
And FNP and RP boosting effects.

I think I like this more than what I proposed. Would Terminators save 3+ on 2d6 in your proposed rending system?

CplPunishment wrote:

I think I like this more than what I proposed. Would Terminators save 3+ on 2d6 in your proposed rending system?

Probably not.
But then the base invulnerable save on terminator armour could be folded into the basic armour save, making it need more significant modifiers before it changes (Like Fantasy's 1+ save used to)
instead of being completely useless against anything that isn't Ap2
Or, it could work like Ward saves did where if you failed you're armour you got to roll the second save (Which is a lot less broken with the modifiers to the armour save and not being excessive with the ward/regen saves)

On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5

This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?

CplPunishment wrote:
On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5

This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?

It was like that in 2nd, and regular marines were basically useless.

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5

This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?

It was like that in 2nd, and regular marines were basically useless.

Good point. What if power armor conferred +1 S +1 T +1W? Would that even the odds?

I have no idea, honestly. The +1 W makes marines about as durable vs heavy bolter as they are now if heavy bolter is a -2 rend.

My issue with this system is that GW can't control themselves. In 2nd ed, all shuriken weapons had an additional -1 to the armor save penalty. This meant grunts with shuriken catapults were rocking a -2 and the Vypers were spitting out dozens of hits with -3 armor save. I lost several games in 2nd without getting a turn. Needless to say, I'm not playing that again.

Martel732 wrote:
I have no idea, honestly. The +1 W makes marines about as durable vs heavy bolter as they are now if heavy bolter is a -2 rend.

My issue with this system is that GW can't control themselves. In 2nd ed, all shuriken weapons had an additional -1 to the armor save penalty. This meant grunts with shuriken catapults were rocking a -2 and the Vypers were spitting out dozens of hits with -3 armor save. I lost several games in 2nd without getting a turn. Needless to say, I'm not playing that again.

If my calculations are correct, you are right
a BS3 S5 AP4 Hvy3 heavy bolter has a 33% chance of killing a t4 w1 sv3+ marine

A BS3 S5 Rend -2 Hvy3 has a 33% chance of killing a t4 w2 sv3+ marine

Methinks some more mathammer is in order.

Hmm, in order to keep the best Rend at -3, I had imagined the hypothetical Rend table to be

AP -/6 => Rend 0
AP 5 => Rend -1
AP 4/3 => Rend -2
AP 2/1 => Rend -3

Mostly because AP 6 is so rarely relevant that it can safely be treated as AP - without too much outcry, Autocannons and Heavy Bolters need a bit of a buff, so sticking them with AP3 weapons is much more apt than with bolters and the like (krak missiles too weak?). And, except for making vehicles a bit more likely to explode, is there really any difference between AP 2 and 1 weapons?

And yeah, I think this would benefit the weaker infantry, but Terminator armor probably needs a 2D6 save roll to be not useless like they are now. Would snake eyes = dead, or should/would it be impossible to kill termies with Rend 0?

The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

CplPunishment wrote:
The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

The curse of the D6.

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

The curse of the D6.

I thought that was rolling lots of 1s except when testing leadership.

That's the OTHER curse of the D6.

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

The curse of the D6.

I could see a lot of these issues being solved by using a d10 and tweaking stats accordingly. I'd be willing to try d10s, but a lot of GW gamers find the idea unthinkable.

Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

 Bobthehero wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...

I guess you won't be exalting my suggestion post then.

Martel732 wrote:
Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -

D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)

D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???

Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...

I guess you won't be exalting my suggestion post then.

Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm more than happy to brainstorm/cooperate with people on a free rulebook. But If I'm writing core rules by myself, I'm going to make terminologies vague enough that I'm not stepping on GW's IP. That way I can publish the rules for the game.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

The curse of the D6.

I could see a lot of these issues being solved by using a d10 and tweaking stats accordingly. I'd be willing to try d10s, but a lot of GW gamers find the idea unthinkable.

Yeah, because unless you're playing Kill Team or not rapid-firing with 10+ man units, god forbid any horde units, you're going to need tons of new dice.

Martel732 wrote:Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

Lack vision, you say? Hmm, seeing as I play Guard and Orks, I should definitely buy 30 or 40 sets of rp dice just to just the d10s, eh? Or, if GW had the guile to sell sets of d10 because they change to a d10 system, they'd probably charge you at least $5 per die. Possibly more, and people would still buy them, because they'd want/need them. THAT, right there, is visionary. What a great future that would be!

Buying any reasonable number of d10 by 40k standards would cost a fortune, halfway to just starting a new army. Why should I be forced to buy a large quantity fairly uncommon dice when I can pool up d6 from regular kids' board games like RISK or whatever to supplement my supply of dice? d10 would probably work for Age of Primarchs, but I want to play my 40k Guard and Orks.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -

D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)

D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???

Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.

OR, instead of changing the dice to d10, just reduce the overall range of stats. The game will never ever be truly balanced when you've got 3 point grots and ~300 point wraith knights (though we all know they should cost a lot more) on the same table. Models with stats that drastically different will never interact properly. Why the feth do we need Int 10? S or T 10? WS or BS 10? It's completely unnecessary; the few units with BS 6+ get their stat invalidated by Twin-Linked. Instead of keeping these ridiculous 1-10 stats and try to adjust the dice to the stats, keep the d6 and adjust the stats to the dice. It's a much more practical solution than buying ungodly quantities of d10.

I bought 10 d10 on ebay for 1.4 bucks and they're perfect.

Maybe it doesn't cost as much as you think.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)

OK, but in a system were rending is rare, having army wide -1 would be a bonus. Especially if they had a flat to wound roll of 4+ (which they might do).

See you're right. AP 3 on strength 3 is a gimmick. Yes you'll ignore a lot of armor saves but you'll still be struggling to wound in the first place.

Going for 4+ to wound while allowing everything a save is a lot worse than wounding on a 5+ and not allowing armor saves on most targets. And rending should not be rare, at all, so -1 should be comon.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)

I mean, as cool as Scions are, they really suck and will need a redesign either way to be competetive. So it's not really relevant.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -

D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)

D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???

Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.

I"ve been saying this for months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Buying any reasonable number of d10 by 40k standards would cost a fortune, halfway to just starting a new army"

This is blatantly not true. I used to have over 100 D10s to play Bab5 wars with. It think the total cost was 25 bucks from the armory.

Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

You are probably right. But that's not going to stop me from writing my own rules and incorporating d10s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

@ CplPunishment

That's the spirit!

I'd like to see what you come up with.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

You are probably right. But that's not going to stop me from writing my own rules and incorporating d10s

Go for it! Dakka has a Game Design subforum just for that sort of thing.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

The new LD test is for breaking, so it only affects sweeping advances, not shooting LD tests. As far as I know commissar's don't prevent their unit from being swept with it's summary execution rule.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

The new LD test is for breaking, so it only affects sweeping advances, not shooting LD tests. As far as I know commissar's don't prevent their unit from being swept with it's summary execution rule.

Not directly, but they prevent the morale test failure which would otherwise lead to being swept via the summary execution rule.

CplPunishment wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

Sod that, the D10 is perfect for the range it offers. Lets roll.

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

Sod that, the D10 is perfect for the range it offers. Lets roll.

I'd be interested in pitching in. Call it Grimdark 41k, just a suggestion.

Also I suggest d8 rather than d10. The d10 has a lovely range that that breaks down into neat 10% increments but 6s and 9s read ambiguously and the small faces present table stability issues.

d8 is stable, has no 9 to mix up with 6s and still gives a decent enough range. Increments are 12.5% which sounds almost as unintuitive as the d6s 16.6r% but a lot of the time that is more a intuitive 25%, 50%, 75% chance.

The 6. and 9. faces are easily read.

But if the concept is d8, OMG, just stick with d6. d8 is just changing the die for the sake of changing the die.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The 6. and 9. faces are easily read.

But if the concept is d8, OMG, just stick with d6. d8 is just changing the die for the sake of changing the die.

Agreed. Also, I have never had any problems reading the 6 and 9. Usually there is a _ beneath them to halp you, and if not it is quite easy to glance at the next number over to confirm if it is a positive or negative.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

I don't see how, if things are headed towards AoS then will we see our leaders/support becoming a benefit in stemming that from happening. Just for instance, Commissar blams a guy, squad doesn't run, Priest makes squad Fearless, Banners, just like BSB in AoS, would allow us to roll two dice and pick the lowest. Let's not forget the CCS orders, plus if they add inspiring presence into 8th ed.

I could only see it becoming a problem if you don't take any of those options readily given to you

You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

Yes! Exactly, very akin to my second post on this forum

Here's how I picture things happening:

Inspiring Presence will be available to everyone. So right off the the bat, your general can make one nearby unit immune to Battleshock.

Commissars. They start by performing a summery execution on a unit, making it immune to Battleshock at the cost of wounds suffered. Alternatively, they can have a copy of the Dark Elf Dreadlord's The Price Of Failure ability. If anyone from a friendly unit within 3" of him flees, all other units within 14" of him don't need to take Battleshock tests, as he makes an example of the deserters.

Priests. They can have a prayer to help pass battleshock tests, like Luthor Huss's Unbending Righteousness prayer.

Then there's banners and vox casters. They can have passive abilities to help out too. We'll have lots of ways of dealing with Battleshock.

 Zontarz wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

I don't see how, if things are headed towards AoS then will we see our leaders/support becoming a benefit in stemming that from happening. Just for instance, Commissar blams a guy, squad doesn't run, Priest makes squad Fearless, Banners, just like BSB in AoS, would allow us to roll two dice and pick the lowest. Let's not forget the CCS orders, plus if they add inspiring presence into 8th ed.

I could only see it becoming a problem if you don't take any of those options readily given to you

Yeah, I have too little faith left in GW to believe that they would do something remotely competent and not just shaft the IG players even more.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP

Is.. that really necessary? Or is this just full wishlisting.

Have you ever used Ogryn?

Yeah. Absolutely necessary.

Not necessary at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and guardsmen are even crappier in Shadow Wars. Flak armour is now a 6+ armour save and lasguns do not have the -1 save modifiers they used to in Necromunda. Carapace armour also gives -1 initiative for the wearer. Such crap -_-

Carapace armor always did that, unfortunately. It severely hindered the enforcers as a faction.

 Zontarz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

Yes! Exactly, very akin to my second post on this forum

OK... Tho that's not exactly what I was getting in the post immediately preceding...

If you mean a bubble, just say a bubble.

Well steel legion are getting rules again.

For Armageddon, at least.

IMO "gives something to units in x" " would be a significant nerf for a priest/commissar. At least if they couldn't join units and hide behind a wall of extra wounds and the same time extending their bubbles to other unit(s) nearby.
Would be just too point-click/sigmar like: "I deepstrike my unit, shoot everything at that model that provides good bonuses, kill him, your army is now 50% less effective, you just stand there and watch it".

 CragHack wrote:
IMO "gives something to units in x" " would be a significant nerf for a priest/commissar. At least if they couldn't join units and hide behind a wall of extra wounds and the same time extending their bubbles to other unit(s) nearby.

Officers have a 12" Ld / Orders bubble. Nids have a 12" Synapse bubble. Why wouldn't Priests & Commissars not have a bubble if they join a unit?

Because this whole bubble thing is more of an AoS thing. And bubble givers in AoS walk alone. So if they gave more bubblers to 40k...you get the idea. Though, as I've said, I wouldn't mind if Priests could join units and give fearless in a 12".

And orders, technically, ain't a bubble, cause you still have to pass them. And the LD bubble is only 6", that comes from a single T3 5+/5++ model, that can't issue orders. But that's another topic

Given that 40k already has bubbles, and that mechanic predates AoS entirely, I'm going to dispute that it's not more of an AoS thing.

The not joining units is an AoS thing, and completely separate from what I had proposed - that's something you added.

That I added, because the rumors kinda smell like Sigmarification. So anything might happen.

If not, I'll repeat myself for the 3rd time now, adding more 'bubbles' for these units would be a welcomed feature.

The one and only acceptable revamp to Guard design.

Thread finished.

Man... I wish, I love me some gothic Scions, but tacticool guardsmen/Stormtroopers would be the gak. I am hoping my Harakonis will look close to that guy.

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

Assuming they translate current stats in this way, this will BENEFIT GEQs vs MEQS. Think about it: guardsmen aren't used to getting armor saves in the open against marines, but suddenly your autocannons and heavy bolters are forcing them to make saves on 6s....

That would make armour mostly useless.

I think anything less than AP4 should just be no modifier, AP4 would by -1.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The one and only acceptable revamp to Guard design.

Thread finished.

No because he is left handed and left handedness is heresy.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

Assuming they translate current stats in this way, this will BENEFIT GEQs vs MEQS. Think about it: guardsmen aren't used to getting armor saves in the open against marines, but suddenly your autocannons and heavy bolters are forcing them to make saves on 6s....

That would make armour mostly useless.

I think anything less than AP4 should just be no modifier, AP4 would by -1.

AP(-) Should have a +1 modifier, so so that 5+ and 6+ armor isn't totally worthless. This way, GEQ units get an improved save against shrapnel from weak blast weapons and the like.

 Bobthehero wrote:
For Armageddon, at least.

It's something.

I for one will not stop complaining until Praetorians get rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The one and only acceptable revamp to Guard design.

Thread finished.

Raven Guard Auxiliary?

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
For Armageddon, at least.

It's something.

I for one will not stop complaining until Praetorians get rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The one and only acceptable revamp to Guard design.

Thread finished.

Raven Guard Auxiliary?

Apparently, it's some guy off DeviantArt who has done some phenomenal Legion Auxilia designs.

The Raven Guard ones are amazing.

What we need are new sculpts. I honestly do not care, just replace our ancient models.

 master of ordinance wrote:
What we need are new sculpts. I honestly do not care, just replace our ancient models.

Preferably with some pith helmets.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6

Assuming they translate current stats in this way, this will BENEFIT GEQs vs MEQS. Think about it: guardsmen aren't used to getting armor saves in the open against marines, but suddenly your autocannons and heavy bolters are forcing them to make saves on 6s....

That would make armour mostly useless.

I think anything less than AP4 should just be no modifier, AP4 would by -1.

A good point. A d10 system would mitigate that somewhat, but I'd have to crunch some numbers to see how much of a difference it would make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A rend -2 bolter against a 4+ on d10 space marine would change their save from 70% success rate to 50% success rate. If cover was rolled into the armor save, it could mitigate this further. A marine in +2 cover would negate -2 rend for example.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The one and only acceptable revamp to Guard design.

Thread finished.

That trooper is absolutely bad ass and made of WIN.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Man... I wish, I love me some gothic Scions, but tacticool guardsmen/Stormtroopers would be the gak. I am hoping my Harakonis will look close to that guy.

I agree. The Warhawks are kick ass. I wish they were used in the fluff more often, and that there was a model line for them.



http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Harakoni_Warhawks



They look pretty close to the pic posted already.

They really just need to go for the respirator heads and it looks so much cooler

Verviedi has apparently been on a bit of a crusade to find more from the artist who did that Raven Guard Army Auxiliary...so here's a Space Wolf Army Auxiliary.

You know that guardsman you want to make the standard design has two issues.
1. 12 kills!?! No possible
2. You realise giving 3 nails to each guardsman quadruples the price of them(1 guardsman + 3 nails = 4 nails)

In all seriousness two things.
One, that is amazing, and an brilliant vet. A bit too elite for a whiteshield or average dude.
Second, looking at it makes me beg the question, what gaurdsman were given hotshot lasrifles defeault (obviously scions would have to get something else then). I'm not sure whether that would make them blatently overpowered, but just a question. Berpahps just vets? Or is it just a stupid idea? I personally think it's bad (less range for better AP, not what standard guardsman need, I think they'd want more of having longer ranged weapons than better AP) but perhaps vets?

Honestly the problem is less firepower of the common guardsman, and more everything else has had its durability and killing power scaled up too far for the common guardsman to matter. Massive levels of power creep needs to be solved before armies like Guard or Tyranids can rely on horde tactics.

I've been thinking and all I've come up with is a strange sentence.

"If Blood Angels were hit with the nerf bat then armies like Guard and Tyranids were beaten, shanked and then had their wallets stolen"

I'm probably not helping.

I still think that in the 7th ed meta, IG are better than BA. Tyranids? How far can pentaflyrant get you?

Martel732 wrote:
I still think that in the 7th ed meta, IG are better than BA. Tyranids?

Isn't this like comparing nickels and dimes when everybody else is talking about dollar bill denominations?

Probably.

It is

And to drive the metaphor home, some people complain about how certain places won't or only very cautiously accept $100 bills.

Had a "fun" game vs SW last night, Thunderwolves+Celestine, multiple Wulfen units, Relic Sicaran, drop pod meltas. Maelstrom mission one, Dawn of War deployment. My list was decent for a Guard list, including multiple Wyverns and a Punisher Vulture, multiple mounted melta-Veteran units and some backfield Forward Sentry lascannon vets in ruins. All his melee units made it into combat top of t2 with minimal casualties. Only my aircraft were left alive by turn 3.

I sure hope the future holds something good for Guard because games like that make me question what the point of playing them anymore is.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Had a "fun" game vs SW last night, Thunderwolves+Celestine, multiple Wulfen units, Relic Sicaran, drop pod meltas. Maelstrom mission one, Dawn of War deployment. My list was decent for a Guard list, including multiple Wyverns and a Punisher Vulture, multiple mounted melta-Veteran units and some backfield Forward Sentry lascannon vets in ruins. All his melee units made it into combat top of t2 with minimal casualties. Only my aircraft were left alive by turn 3.

I sure hope the future holds something good for Guard because games like that make me question what the point of playing them anymore is.

Ahh yes, these games. The same thing is driving me away from 40K too.

TWC and equivalent units is where the Wyvern's effectiveness starts to drop off. Unfortunately.

In all honesty Martel, for all it is talked about the Wyvern is only actually good at dealing with Infantry blobs. Hordes of infantry are its food, and if you are facing an army that is relying on them you will enjoy reaping in the kill, but small elite high armour units are not good for it, and any unit that is placed inside a transport (look who can get free transports..) will become instantly immune to the Wyvern.

It's really the T5. Wyverns shred every unit the BA have because T4. And BA are "elite". Sanguinary guard? Make 30 saves, fethers. No more sanguinary guard.

Martel732 wrote:
It's really the T5. Wyverns shred every unit the BA have because T4. And BA are "elite". Sanguinary guard? Make 30 saves, fethers. No more sanguinary guard.

Don't get me started on Sanguinary Guard. They have the same stat line as a scout, just with a 2+ save! Why don't out Honor Guard have WS5?

Wouldn't it be neat if we had d10s so that the full range of statlines (which are in theory 1-10 but in practice only span a range of 5 or 6 common stats within this spectrum).

In my rules, the various factions are spread out over the 1-10 spectrum in a more appropriately fluffy fashion and d10s help facilitate more sensible/diverse dice results needed for success.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
All his melee units made it into combat top of t2 with minimal casualties. Only my aircraft were left alive by turn 3.

I sure hope the future holds something good for Guard because games like that make me question what the point of playing them anymore is.

IMO, IG aren't a "competitive" army, so you should play for a good game.the answer is to:
a) play other low-tier armie;
b) take really good allies; -or-
c) handicap with extra points / reserves.
Showing up just to get beat is kinda pointless.

On a side note, maybe I should mention my "Un-friender" list.
Take the triple Baneblade formation, including 212 Arethusia and a Stormsword, and Celestine. Flavour with Veterans or Platoons.
Make 212 your Warlord.
Deploy so that every Super Heavy is within 12" of Celestine and on your first turn trigger her ability that gives all LoW within 12" of her IWND for the entire game.
Use the Stormsword to deal with enemy infantry blobs and 212/whatever else you brought to pop transports/act as multi purpose threat removers and bring the infantry for mopup/anti assault duties.

Whilst not the strongest list ever it is guaranteed to make the WAAC's and TFG's in your FLGS cry cheese.

Does that trick also work with Warhound Titans that can shoot over / get cover saves from the HWT-filled Stormsword & BB? How about Knight households with the +1 Sv++? Yes? Ok then!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Does that trick also work with Warhound Titans that can shoot over / get cover saves from the HWT-filled Stormsword & BB? How about Knight households with the +1 Sv++? Yes? Ok then!

.....Yes?

 master of ordinance wrote:
On a side note, maybe I should mention my "Un-friender" list.
Take the triple Baneblade formation, including 212 Arethusia and a Stormsword, and Celestine. Flavour with Veterans or Platoons.
Make 212 your Warlord.
Deploy so that every Super Heavy is within 12" of Celestine and on your first turn trigger her ability that gives all LoW within 12" of her IWND for the entire game.
Use the Stormsword to deal with enemy infantry blobs and 212/whatever else you brought to pop transports/act as multi purpose threat removers and bring the infantry for mopup/anti assault duties.

Whilst not the strongest list ever it is guaranteed to make the WAAC's and TFG's in your FLGS cry cheese.

Sadly, the TFG's will be right in this case because you're not following RAW.

1. Arathusa isn't a character, it just gets a warlord trait when its your warlord. The only way for this to happen is if you don't have any other characters in your army.
1.a The baneblade sisters require a techpriest for the formation
2. Formations don't allow for named characters except when they explicitly do, such as potentially with Cawl in this case.
3. Forgeworld + formations has a really big question mark over it right now

Nice idea :<


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Had a "fun" game vs SW last night, Thunderwolves+Celestine, multiple Wulfen units, Relic Sicaran, drop pod meltas. Maelstrom mission one, Dawn of War deployment. My list was decent for a Guard list, including multiple Wyverns and a Punisher Vulture, multiple mounted melta-Veteran units and some backfield Forward Sentry lascannon vets in ruins. All his melee units made it into combat top of t2 with minimal casualties. Only my aircraft were left alive by turn 3.

I sure hope the future holds something good for Guard because games like that make me question what the point of playing them anymore is.

Been there far too often.

It's not so much imba (thought there is that), it's you're playing in two completely different problem spaces, with TWC being a solution in both, wheras the guard munitions delivery service only works in the one.

Tarpits aside, and those are fairly easy to bypass nowadays, IG don't do melee, and don't have the gubbinz and mobility of Tau to counteract that. The exception is the flyers which in nearly every situation, can't punch out their cost against dedicated CC units who of course have the advantage of 'not ever getting shot at unless they want to be'.

 malamis wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
On a side note, maybe I should mention my "Un-friender" list.
Take the triple Baneblade formation, including 212 Arethusia and a Stormsword, and Celestine. Flavour with Veterans or Platoons.
Make 212 your Warlord.
Deploy so that every Super Heavy is within 12" of Celestine and on your first turn trigger her ability that gives all LoW within 12" of her IWND for the entire game.
Use the Stormsword to deal with enemy infantry blobs and 212/whatever else you brought to pop transports/act as multi purpose threat removers and bring the infantry for mopup/anti assault duties.

Whilst not the strongest list ever it is guaranteed to make the WAAC's and TFG's in your FLGS cry cheese.

Sadly, the TFG's will be right in this case because you're not following RAW.

1. Arathusa isn't a character, it just gets a warlord trait when its your warlord. The only way for this to happen is if you don't have any other characters in your army.
1.a The baneblade sisters require a techpriest for the formation
2. Formations don't allow for named characters except when they explicitly do, such as potentially with Cawl in this case.
3. Forgeworld + formations has a really big question mark over it right now

Nice idea :<

Well actually from how I read it 212 IS a character. The entry is actually for Maximillian Wiessman whom is the commander of 212, as Pask is for a Leman Russ.
Wiessman/212 also has the special rule "Warlord".

Either way, it is a pity that he cannot join the formation, but still, three IWND Baneblade chassis with the Techpriest repairing them would be a great meta shaker, although its lasting effects would see it quickly countered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Had a "fun" game vs SW last night, Thunderwolves+Celestine, multiple Wulfen units, Relic Sicaran, drop pod meltas. Maelstrom mission one, Dawn of War deployment. My list was decent for a Guard list, including multiple Wyverns and a Punisher Vulture, multiple mounted melta-Veteran units and some backfield Forward Sentry lascannon vets in ruins. All his melee units made it into combat top of t2 with minimal casualties. Only my aircraft were left alive by turn 3.

I sure hope the future holds something good for Guard because games like that make me question what the point of playing them anymore is.

Been there far too often.

It's not so much imba (thought there is that), it's you're playing in two completely different problem spaces, with TWC being a solution in both, wheras the guard munitions delivery service only works in the one.

Tarpits aside, and those are fairly easy to bypass nowadays, IG don't do melee, and don't have the gubbinz and mobility of Tau to counteract that. The exception is the flyers which in nearly every situation, can't punch out their cost against dedicated CC units who of course have the advantage of 'not ever getting shot at unless they want to be'.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Well actually from how I read it 212 IS a character. The entry is actually for Maximillian Wiessman whom is the commander of 212, as Pask is for a Leman Russ.
Wiessman/212 also has the special rule "Warlord".

IA:1 2e pg 272 wrote:
Unit Type
Super-heavy vehicle
(Tank,Unique)

A character he is not~

Its also an Apocalypse unit... and there's no 'Lord of War' update in FW's 'These things are Lords of War' sheet which it appears forgeworld no longer has on their website (?).

Just be careful; there's nothing quite as unpleasant in the hobby as gearing up to school one of the tiresome types, only to have it backfire on you ;\

So the "Warlord" rule?

I don't want to get anyone too excited buuuuuut...

The heads are in line with the current FW respirator heads, but the torsos are not the standard GW Cadians or the FW Cadians. There's not really a way to do that pose either from the plastics/resins without extensive work.

So they might be doing another "in plain sight" thing and I'm trying not to get too hyped personally.

They look a lot like the left open arm in the Cadian Shock Troop box combined with the Missile Launcher right arm from the HWTs. That could just be the conversion mind working overtime though...

They look exactly like the Cadian torsos and as mentioned above look like the arms currently in the range. Otherwise great picture.

 General Annoyance wrote:
They look a lot like the left open arm in the Cadian Shock Troop box combined with the Missile Launcher right arm from the HWTs. That could just be the conversion mind working overtime though...

The pauldrons and torsos are the thing you should be looking at.

There's a very noticeable "bulk" difference between the FW respirator helmets and the Cadians proper. It's actually why when building mine I've trimmed off the back of the neck on the respirator helmets/heads to make the head sit a bit more flush and look as though it's an environmentally sealed clothing part.

For reference, here's the FW promo shots.

Pay close attention to the pauldrons.

I see what you mean by the Respirator Helmets, but I don't see the distinction between the torsos and the pauldrons in both photos.

That arm pose in the first photo is oddly familiar. I'm going to go poke around and see if I can track it. Taking your word that these could be new parts for now though.

Where is that picture from?

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Where is that picture from?

Regimental Standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:
I see what you mean by the Respirator Helmets, but I don't see the distinction between the torsos and the pauldrons in both photos.

That arm pose in the first photo is oddly familiar. I'm going to go poke around and see if I can track it. Taking your word that these could be new parts for now though.

Pauldrons on the FW pieces are much closer to the arm, the plastics have them being kind of "bulked" out.

You can actually spot the difference in the photo I gave, as the one on the left is all resin arms while the one on the right uses the plastic bits.

I haven't handled FW stuff before, but I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying.

If any of you were planning on starting or expanding a DKoK army, you might want to do it now. Looks like they are going the way of the dodo. I beat all the rumor sites, your welcome. Once kits like this start getting discontinued, its only a matter of time.



Pray to the emperor GW has something massive planned for IG this year. We've lost almost all of our heroes, even more now that Kell/Creed are gone. Cadia is gone. DKoK on the way out. Hasting remarks certainly didn't instill any confidence in the future of the IG.



If we use the end of Gathering Storms books as a guide the most likely scenarios in the near future take place on Armageddon & Attila. Perhaps we will see Salvar Chem Dogs? Plastic Steel Legion? An Attilian horseback regiment?

One can dream...

Oh man, I was worried about Krieg going away, especially since they haven't restocked on Grenadiers for a while.

All thanks to the HH, no doubts.

Commissar Benny wrote:
If any of you were planning on starting or expanding a DKoK army, you might want to do it now. Looks like they are going the way of the dodo. I beat all the rumor sites, your welcome. Once kits like this start getting discontinued, its only a matter of time.

Yeah...that's what was said about the Thunderhawk.

Pray to the emperor GW has something massive planned for IG this year. We've lost almost all of our heroes, even more now that Kell/Creed are gone. Cadia is gone. DKoK on the way out. Hasting remarks certainly didn't instill any confidence in the future of the IG.

DKoK were never really one of the "main" Regiments.

If we use the end of Gathering Storms books as a guide the most likely scenarios in the near future take place on Armageddon & Attila. Perhaps we will see Salvar Chem Dogs? Plastic Steel Legion? An Attilian horseback regiment?

One can dream...

Attila's a useless backwater. It's probably going to get destroyed.
Armageddon's "Steel Legions" never really go off-planet, so nope.

I really wish people would stop trying to play it like Cadia being destroyed means that Cadians are gone. It just shows how little knowledge of the Astra Militarum they actually exposed themselves to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh man, I was worried about Krieg going away, especially since they haven't restocked on Grenadiers for a while.

All thanks to the HH, no doubts.

More likely it's them wanting to redo the molds, if anything.

They've been marking stuff as "SOLD OUT" and leaving it up when they're revamping molds in the past.

Umm, cadia being destroyed means that there is now a finite (and thanks to GW's terribad fluff, rapidly depleting) number of Cadians, so there might as well not be.
Of course, that is the least worrying thing about the whole affair.

As to the Death Korps, I do not want to sound like a downer, but it would not surprise me if they where permanently being discontinued. Sold out, Not Available and no indication that they will ever be redone. Yeah, the prospect is not looking good.

The destruction of Cadia was a given if GW was going to advance the story line. Cadia' main export was troops, so their are plenty sill around.

I'm really not surprised the DKoK are being discontinued. Beautiful models, but far too delicate for play.

Far to pricey as well.

What if the DKoK are being remade into plastic?

I'll be super gutted if they are being discontinued. They're too awesome to discontinue. :(

There are already two set of plastic guard. I find it highly unlikely GW would risk doing a third. Maybe when they retire one of those lines. I wouldn't put any money on the Catachans going anywhere soon. The Cadians have at least another decade before the revamp them.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Umm, cadia being destroyed means that there is now a finite (and thanks to GW's terribad fluff, rapidly depleting) number of Cadians, so there might as well not be.
Of course, that is the least worrying thing about the whole affair.

Cadia being destroyed doesn't mean jack.

The big thing about Cadia was always the culture/training. Since mustering out regiments can found colonies/settlements, do you really expect them to be a bunch of laze-abouts after?

As to the Death Korps, I do not want to sound like a downer, but it would not surprise me if they where permanently being discontinued. Sold out, Not Available and no indication that they will ever be redone. Yeah, the prospect is not looking good.

When do you ever do anything beyond "sound like a downer"?

It looks like some of you were smart & heeded my advice. 2 more DKoK kits gone overnight. Looks like Elysians are on their way out also. If you plan on buying them, do it now. Once stuff like this happens, they are on their way out. Last warning. Fortunately the rumor sites STILL haven't picked up on it so you have a chance.



Hopefully this means FW plans on adding new 40k models. I highly doubt it though. Its been so long since a 40k model has been released through Forgeworld the new releases tab & preorders don't even exist anymore...

Go ahead and call me a conspiracy theorist, but the implications are troubling. Since they are moving solely to supporting 30K/Horus Heresy & the direction the lore is heading, do not be surprised if 40K quickly becomes a Primarch circle jerk & marines fighting marines every month.

Commissar Benny wrote:

It looks like some of you were smart & heeded my advice. 2 more DKoK kits gone overnight. Looks like Elysians are on their way out also. If you plan on buying them, do it now. Once stuff like this happens, they are on their way out. Last warning. Fortunately the rumor sites STILL haven't picked up on it so you have a chance.

Counterpoint: they're advertising Shadow War kill teams of these factions and have likely just run out of stock after a spike in demand. Sold Out doesn't mean Gone Forever, just that stock on hand is gone. As early as a week ago the Valkyrie Sky Talon was listed as Sold Out, but now it's back.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:

It looks like some of you were smart & heeded my advice. 2 more DKoK kits gone overnight. Looks like Elysians are on their way out also. If you plan on buying them, do it now. Once stuff like this happens, they are on their way out. Last warning. Fortunately the rumor sites STILL haven't picked up on it so you have a chance.

Counterpoint: they're advertising Shadow War kill teams of these factions and have likely just run out of stock after a spike in demand. Sold Out doesn't mean Gone Forever, just that stock on hand is gone. As early as a week ago the Valkyrie Sky Talon was listed as Sold Out, but now it's back.

Is it possible they might have found an extra supply of Valkyrie Sky Talon that they weren't aware of? In the past, whenever an item has stated "No longer available" that is it, its gone. Otherwise they usually state its temporarily unavailable & give you an option to have them email you when it gets back in stock. I've seen numerous items get discontinued without warning & not giving customers a last chance to buy.

Has anyone emailed FW to ask about the DKOK? A few years back they started going out of stock so I just emailed and asked and they said they would be back after a while, the moulds were just getting repairs.

FW are usually pretty straight with their replies when you ask them about stuff going out of stock, they also told me when the specialist games stuff went out of stock that it wasn't coming back.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Has anyone emailed FW to ask about the DKOK? A few years back they started going out of stock so I just emailed and asked and they said they would be back after a while, the moulds were just getting repairs.

FW are usually pretty straight with their replies when you ask them about stuff going out of stock, they also told me when the specialist games stuff went out of stock that it wasn't coming back.

I already sent them an email yes. Usually takes them a few days to reply & with the holiday weekend I suspect we'll hear back next week.

 Kanluwen wrote:

As to the Death Korps, I do not want to sound like a downer, but it would not surprise me if they where permanently being discontinued. Sold out, Not Available and no indication that they will ever be redone. Yeah, the prospect is not looking good.

When do you ever do anything beyond "sound like a downer"?

Well, given the gak state of the Guard and that FW seem to be discontinuing the only decent Guard figures out there (either that or a millionaire has decided to play IG) there is little to be up about. SoB are getting nothing (as usual), IG are just getting screwed and shafted..... What is there to be happy about?

'What does the future hold for the Guard?'

I don't know, but I look on this website every day in hopes of the 8th edition announcement, so that they can finally be at least somewhat competitive again.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

As to the Death Korps, I do not want to sound like a downer, but it would not surprise me if they where permanently being discontinued. Sold out, Not Available and no indication that they will ever be redone. Yeah, the prospect is not looking good.

When do you ever do anything beyond "sound like a downer"?

Well, given the gak state of the Guard and that FW seem to be discontinuing the only decent Guard figures out there (either that or a millionaire has decided to play IG) there is little to be up about.

Or one of their most popular lines is getting a refresher on the molds...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

As to the Death Korps, I do not want to sound like a downer, but it would not surprise me if they where permanently being discontinued. Sold out, Not Available and no indication that they will ever be redone. Yeah, the prospect is not looking good.

When do you ever do anything beyond "sound like a downer"?

Well, given the gak state of the Guard and that FW seem to be discontinuing the only decent Guard figures out there (either that or a millionaire has decided to play IG) there is little to be up about.

Or one of their most popular lines is getting a refresher on the molds...

I have been playing 40K for too long to have that much faith or hope.

Grenadiers are temporarily out of stock, whilst a few other units are no longer available. Do they usually slap the latter on for mold repairs? The Thunderhawk is pretty much getting a 2.0 version so I doubt it's quite the same thing.

A few Renegades & Heretics as well as Solar Auxilia kits have also gone poof also.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Grenadiers are temporarily out of stock, whilst a few other units are no longer available. Do they usually slap the latter on for mold repairs? The Thunderhawk is pretty much getting a 2.0 version so I doubt it's quite the same thing.

They sometimes slap "No Longer Available" for mold repairs yes.

It also happens when they plan on repackaging things, as the previous item entry will be removed.

A few Renegades & Heretics as well as Solar Auxilia kits have also gone poof also.

Like what?

For Solar Auxilia, I see the Lasrifle Section and Solar Auxilia Basilisk/Medusa are "No Longer Available"...for Renegades & Heretics, I couldn't see any listed.

All I can say is thank god the DKoK stuff is pretty well covered by the recasters. I'm against buying recasts of in-production stuff as much as anyone, but if GW is going to discontinue kits I need for my army to make room for more space marines...

Dakka Dakka, of course, in no way condones such activities - at all.

 Alpharius wrote:
Dakka Dakka, of course, in no way condones such activities - at all.

Thanks for the official cover Alph

 Alpharius wrote:
Dakka Dakka, of course, in no way condones such activities - at all.

Indeed. However, we can't deny that the appeal is likely to rise as lines such as these are discontinued, and no alternatives are offered to customers.

GW cuts its own throat, with a knife it mad itself.
How delightfully ironic

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Dakka Dakka, of course, in no way condones such activities - at all.

Indeed. However, we can't deny that the appeal is likely to rise as lines such as these are discontinued, and no alternatives are offered to customers.

One of two variants of DKoK infantry squads goes out of stock and it's the end of the world, despite these models having been available for how long now?

Same with Elysians.

Right now, it's not "the whole range" being gone. It's bits and pieces--oh, and the "Death Korps of Krieg Infantry Platoon" was one of the bundles that FW was selling. They would do the bundles, then eventually remove/replace them with new ones.

 master of ordinance wrote:
GW cuts its own throat, with a knife it mad itself.
How delightfully ironic

That's a little dramatic. Even if the entire Guard range was thrown out the window (which it won't be) it'd hardly spell the end for GW.

Good thing I play Cadians

I'm on page 4 reading right now. If it hasn't been brought up yet.

Lost and the Damned formation from Chaos get to come back after being wiped out. Maybe something like that for all non command squads in a Platoon troop choice, on a 5+ roll. That way wee can keep bodies on the table and not lug around to many quardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:
One of two variants of DKoK infantry squads goes out of stock and it's the end of the world, despite these models having been available for how long now?

Same with Elysians.

Considering that without them a DKoK army could look rather monopose, I'd say it's quite important for anyone who collects them or is looking to collect them.

It doesn't bother me personally though. FW Guard regiments have always been way beyond what I can afford, even now on a salary that's pretty decent for my age.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
One of two variants of DKoK infantry squads goes out of stock and it's the end of the world, despite these models having been available for how long now?

Same with Elysians.

Considering that without them a DKoK army could look rather monopose, I'd say it's quite important for anyone who collects them or is looking to collect them.

The argument that you need a "Running" and "Advancing" squad to both exist is kind of ridiculous. It's like there being a kit for Assault Squads with Jump Packs or without Jump Packs.

Guardsmen are Guardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The argument that you need a "Running" and "Advancing" squad to both exist is kind of ridiculous. It's like there being a kit for Assault Squads with Jump Packs or without Jump Packs.

Guardsmen are Guardsmen.

All I'd say is if I was paying £43 a squad of miniatures that I'd probably need quite a few of, I'd want options.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The argument that you need a "Running" and "Advancing" squad to both exist is kind of ridiculous. It's like there being a kit for Assault Squads with Jump Packs or without Jump Packs.

Guardsmen are Guardsmen.

Fine, let's apply that reasoning to space marines. No more variant armor styles/shoulder pads/etc. You get one power armor + bolter kit, one jump pack + pistol/sword kit, one terminator armor kit, etc. Everything else is gone and never coming back. And I'm sure nobody would be unhappy that they just lost a huge amount of customization potential, everything is still WYSIWYG and posing options don't matter, right?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The argument that you need a "Running" and "Advancing" squad to both exist is kind of ridiculous. It's like there being a kit for Assault Squads with Jump Packs or without Jump Packs.

Guardsmen are Guardsmen.

Fine, let's apply that reasoning to space marines. No more variant armor styles/shoulder pads/etc. You get one power armor + bolter kit, one jump pack + pistol/sword kit, one terminator armor kit, etc. Everything else is gone and never coming back. And I'm sure nobody would be unhappy that they just lost a huge amount of customization potential, everything is still WYSIWYG and posing options don't matter, right?

What posing options are different between the two squads?

It looks like it's a difference of just two models in the squads; with Firing Squad having a kneeling set of legs and Advancing Squad with a set of running legs.

I mean, if you're going to sit here and complain about Marine bloat then try to defend two different squads existing when a cursory glance makes it appear that there's just a set of two different legs between the sets--you're being a pretty big hypocrite.

 Kanluwen wrote:
What posing options are different between the two squads?

Uh, all of them? The body poses are different (running instead of standing/kneeling to shoot), and the arms are different (guns held low on the move/throwing a grenade/lunging with a bayonet instead of shouldered to fire). There might be a common part or two in there somewhere, but they're clearly different kits if you pay attention.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What posing options are different between the two squads?

Uh, all of them? The body poses are different (running instead of standing/kneeling to shoot), and the arms are different (guns held low on the move/throwing a grenade/lunging with a bayonet instead of shouldered to fire). There might be a common part or two in there somewhere, but they're clearly different kits if you pay attention.

The body poses are the same in several places. Notably the special weapons guys.

There's repeats of the "Running" legs in the Advancing set and different arms.

So, again, what necessitates there being two sets when you could just have the arms and running legs all in one set?


Because as it stands right now--it's just speculation that these are permanently gone.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What posing options are different between the two squads?

Uh, all of them? The body poses are different (running instead of standing/kneeling to shoot), and the arms are different (guns held low on the move/throwing a grenade/lunging with a bayonet instead of shouldered to fire). There might be a common part or two in there somewhere, but they're clearly different kits if you pay attention.

The body poses are the same in several places. Notably the special weapons guys.

There's repeats of the "Running" legs in the Advancing set and different arms.

So, again, what necessitates there being two sets when you could just have the arms and running legs all in one set?


Because as it stands right now--it's just speculation that these are permanently gone.

Put it another way:
every Marine figure is built to be kind of ambling, or leaning slightly.
Thats what Guard figures are like.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
What posing options are different between the two squads?

Uh, all of them? The body poses are different (running instead of standing/kneeling to shoot), and the arms are different (guns held low on the move/throwing a grenade/lunging with a bayonet instead of shouldered to fire). There might be a common part or two in there somewhere, but they're clearly different kits if you pay attention.

The body poses are the same in several places. Notably the special weapons guys.

There's repeats of the "Running" legs in the Advancing set and different arms.

So, again, what necessitates there being two sets when you could just have the arms and running legs all in one set?


Because as it stands right now--it's just speculation that these are permanently gone.

Put it another way:
every Marine figure is built to be kind of ambling, or leaning slightly.
Thats what Guard figures are like.

Nobody is talking about "Guard figures". This line of discussion is about two specific kits; the Death Korps Advancing and Firing kits.

Yeah. Who needs Variation?

Go back to Monopose RT era please!

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, again, what necessitates there being two sets when you could just have the arms and running legs all in one set?

Nothing, if you're willing to have a kit with more than ten bodies and 20 different arms, with a price increase to match. There's very little benefit from combining the two kits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Dakka Dakka, of course, in no way condones such activities - at all.

Indeed. However, we can't deny that the appeal is likely to rise as lines such as these are discontinued, and no alternatives are offered to customers.

One of two variants of DKoK infantry squads goes out of stock and it's the end of the world, despite these models having been available for how long now?

There's also 3 variants of heavy weapon teams out of stock and you may not remember but there were originally THREE variants of DKOK infantry squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The body poses are the same in several places. Notably the special weapons guys.

There's repeats of the "Running" legs in the Advancing set and different arms.

So, again, what necessitates there being two sets when you could just have the arms and running legs all in one set?


Because as it stands right now--it's just speculation that these are permanently gone.

Unless I'm mistaken, the "Firing" squad is 10 unique poses.

I think the "Advancing" squad might have a couple of duplicate bodies, I'm not actually sure. But either way, the DKOK aren't like the plastic Cadians, they are basically monopose, arms aren't interchangeable and if you try and pose them differently you'll end up with ill fitting parts and huge gaps.

So yeah, having variety is important. Especially since these are FW products sold at a higher price.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. Who needs Variation?

Go back to Monopose RT era please!

If you include 2nd Edition, some of us wit metal armies never left it.

IMO, The OOP metal ranges are still superior to the options available today. If I were to ever build another guard army, the only advantage plastic has is price. And weight. None of the resin stuff from GW really looks that good in person. And it looks ridiculous next to the plastic guardsmen. Not to mention the fragile barrels breaking off the DKoK models I bought. Waste of money.

I haven't had a barrel break off my DKOK yet, though I'm pretty careful with my models (I'm one of those people who despises it when other people touch my models ).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I haven't had a barrel break off my DKOK yet, though I'm pretty careful with my models (I'm one of those people who despises it when other people touch my models ).

Yeah, I don't get the durability complaint either. The models are beautiful, in part because of things like having true-scale gun barrels and similar fine details. But the very few broken models I've suffered have been entirely the result of my own careless handling. I'd much rather have models that look nice but require a little care than models that trade looks for the ability to be carelessly thrown into a heap without breaking anything.

I think that durability for mainline products is a huge concern. For some people, they are careful enough, but I'm not one of them, so I prefer models with some more durability.

that's one of the hidden realities of FW though: they are fine scale models that can be used for gaming, as compared to Citadel miniatures, which are gaming pieces that look really cool.

But that's one reason it's nice to have some options.

OTOH, 3E Dark Eldar? Not so durable...

 Polonius wrote:
I think that durability for mainline products is a huge concern. For some people, they are careful enough, but I'm not one of them, so I prefer models with some more durability.

that's one of the hidden realities of FW though: they are fine scale models that can be used for gaming, as compared to Citadel miniatures, which are gaming pieces that look really cool.

But that's one reason it's nice to have some options.

Maybe recently but don't you remember pretty much every pewter mutli piece model falling apart at a stiff breeze? Abaddon, Zoanthropes, and Greater Daemons come to mind.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think that durability for mainline products is a huge concern. For some people, they are careful enough, but I'm not one of them, so I prefer models with some more durability.

that's one of the hidden realities of FW though: they are fine scale models that can be used for gaming, as compared to Citadel miniatures, which are gaming pieces that look really cool.

But that's one reason it's nice to have some options.

Maybe recently but don't you remember pretty much every pewter mutli piece model falling apart at a stiff breeze? Abaddon, Zoanthropes, and Greater Daemons come to mind.

True, but that's because they were difficult to assemble, not inherently fragile. I've glued plenty of metal models back together, in the middle of games, and they were fine. Once you learned about pinning and two part epoxy, things got better as well.

For human sized models, metal is hella tough.

Pinning has solved so many of my issues, in all honesty I do not know why I didnt bother sooner.
For one thing my IG vehicles radio aerials actually last transportation.

For me, it's that basically ALL of my old pinning is CA, not 2-part epoxy.

So I called up FW today. DKOK Grenadiers are coming back, but not soon as they need some reworking. The DKOK advancing squad is coming back, they're in production now and will now be boxed rather than bagged.

The Platoon is of course waiting for sufficient advancing squads before it can be sold again.

So no discontinuation!

 Naix wrote:
So I called up FW today. DKOK Grenadiers are coming back, but not soon as they need some reworking. The DKOK advancing squad is coming back, they're in production now and will now be boxed rather than bagged.

*sigh of relief*

I admit, it was a bit hasty to assume the worst so quickly, but it's never a good feeling to see stuff go out of stock considering how many FW kits have gone OOP since 30k took over.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think that durability for mainline products is a huge concern. For some people, they are careful enough, but I'm not one of them, so I prefer models with some more durability.

that's one of the hidden realities of FW though: they are fine scale models that can be used for gaming, as compared to Citadel miniatures, which are gaming pieces that look really cool.

But that's one reason it's nice to have some options.

Maybe recently but don't you remember pretty much every pewter mutli piece model falling apart at a stiff breeze? Abaddon, Zoanthropes, and Greater Daemons come to mind.

I haven't had a metal Zoanthrope fall apart yet, but luckily I had the foresight to drill a nice 1mm diameter ~ 5mm deep hole and insert a big ol' pin in it then use epoxy adhesive rather than superglue.

The damned things do like to fall over though due to being so top heavy.

 Naix wrote:
So I called up FW today. DKOK Grenadiers are coming back, but not soon as they need some reworking. The DKOK advancing squad is coming back, they're in production now and will now be boxed rather than bagged.

The Platoon is of course waiting for sufficient advancing squads before it can be sold again.

So no discontinuation!

Any word on the similar Elysian kits? I would presume the same.

I received a response from Forgeworld today. Although I do not know if I am permitted to disclose its contents as it states:

"Information in this email and any attachment is confidential, and solely for the intended recipient(s), and may not be used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent."

Commissar Benny wrote:
I received a response from Forgeworld today. Although I do not know if I am permitted to disclose its contents as it states:

"Information in this email and any attachment is confidential, and solely for the intended recipient(s), and may not be used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent."

pfffft. Unless you signed some agreement prior to receiving the e-mail, it means nothing.

Otherwise, by reading this statement, you owe me $1 million, to be delivered by tomorrow noon.

Post away!

Lke always never good, fluff and model wise it seems.

 Stormonu wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
I received a response from Forgeworld today. Although I do not know if I am permitted to disclose its contents as it states:

"Information in this email and any attachment is confidential, and solely for the intended recipient(s), and may not be used or disclosed except for the purpose for which it has been sent."

pfffft. Unless you signed some agreement prior to receiving the e-mail, it means nothing.

Otherwise, by reading this statement, you owe me $1 million, to be delivered by tomorrow noon.

Post away!

Alright well, I'll outline what was discussed but I'm not going to submit a screenshot or link said email. If you guys think I am lying, that is for you to decide.

* Forgeworld will pursue what is needs to for its survival & growth. 30k is very popular, as such we will continue to see more in this direction.

* While I cannot confirm or deny what Naix spoke with FW about over the phone, unless a new imperial armour campaign book is released we will not see new DKoK releases.

* FW does plan to continue to release models for the 40k range.

* Many kits planned to be discontinued due to low sales, broken moulds, broken masters, product deterioration & relevance.

* Probability of new AM kits is highly unlikely with no current plans at the moment.

Despite being sad about many of the details above, I was very impressed with the email I received. It was very sincere, honest & personal. Most companies just send out automated responses or say nonsense like "we cannot disclose said details at this time." etc etc

So the good news is, if what Naix said is true then many of the kits listed "no longer available" may come back. However, many kits are scheduled to be discontinued supposedly so if you have been waiting to buy a certain something it may be in your best interest to make that happen.