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CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...

The curse of the D6.

I could see a lot of these issues being solved by using a d10 and tweaking stats accordingly. I'd be willing to try d10s, but a lot of GW gamers find the idea unthinkable.

Yeah, because unless you're playing Kill Team or not rapid-firing with 10+ man units, god forbid any horde units, you're going to need tons of new dice.

Martel732 wrote:Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

Lack vision, you say? Hmm, seeing as I play Guard and Orks, I should definitely buy 30 or 40 sets of rp dice just to just the d10s, eh? Or, if GW had the guile to sell sets of d10 because they change to a d10 system, they'd probably charge you at least $5 per die. Possibly more, and people would still buy them, because they'd want/need them. THAT, right there, is visionary. What a great future that would be!

Buying any reasonable number of d10 by 40k standards would cost a fortune, halfway to just starting a new army. Why should I be forced to buy a large quantity fairly uncommon dice when I can pool up d6 from regular kids' board games like RISK or whatever to supplement my supply of dice? d10 would probably work for Age of Primarchs, but I want to play my 40k Guard and Orks.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -

D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)

D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???

Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.

OR, instead of changing the dice to d10, just reduce the overall range of stats. The game will never ever be truly balanced when you've got 3 point grots and ~300 point wraith knights (though we all know they should cost a lot more) on the same table. Models with stats that drastically different will never interact properly. Why the feth do we need Int 10? S or T 10? WS or BS 10? It's completely unnecessary; the few units with BS 6+ get their stat invalidated by Twin-Linked. Instead of keeping these ridiculous 1-10 stats and try to adjust the dice to the stats, keep the d6 and adjust the stats to the dice. It's a much more practical solution than buying ungodly quantities of d10.

I bought 10 d10 on ebay for 1.4 bucks and they're perfect.

Maybe it doesn't cost as much as you think.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)

OK, but in a system were rending is rare, having army wide -1 would be a bonus. Especially if they had a flat to wound roll of 4+ (which they might do).

See you're right. AP 3 on strength 3 is a gimmick. Yes you'll ignore a lot of armor saves but you'll still be struggling to wound in the first place.

Going for 4+ to wound while allowing everything a save is a lot worse than wounding on a 5+ and not allowing armor saves on most targets. And rending should not be rare, at all, so -1 should be comon.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)

I mean, as cool as Scions are, they really suck and will need a redesign either way to be competetive. So it's not really relevant.

CplPunishment wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.

At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -

D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)

D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???

Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.

I"ve been saying this for months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Buying any reasonable number of d10 by 40k standards would cost a fortune, halfway to just starting a new army"

This is blatantly not true. I used to have over 100 D10s to play Bab5 wars with. It think the total cost was 25 bucks from the armory.

Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

You are probably right. But that's not going to stop me from writing my own rules and incorporating d10s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

@ CplPunishment

That's the spirit!

I'd like to see what you come up with.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Isn't GW committed to the D6 for its main games though? As part of a design philosophy?

I think D10s could work but I doubt GW will go with them.

You are probably right. But that's not going to stop me from writing my own rules and incorporating d10s

Go for it! Dakka has a Game Design subforum just for that sort of thing.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

The new LD test is for breaking, so it only affects sweeping advances, not shooting LD tests. As far as I know commissar's don't prevent their unit from being swept with it's summary execution rule.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

The new LD test is for breaking, so it only affects sweeping advances, not shooting LD tests. As far as I know commissar's don't prevent their unit from being swept with it's summary execution rule.

Not directly, but they prevent the morale test failure which would otherwise lead to being swept via the summary execution rule.

CplPunishment wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

Sod that, the D10 is perfect for the range it offers. Lets roll.

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.

Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex

I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.

You do the rules, I do the Codex?

But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.

Well then we would be just like GW but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.

I'm in. But I must forewarn you that it will probably be a d10 system... not too late to bail!

Sod that, the D10 is perfect for the range it offers. Lets roll.

I'd be interested in pitching in. Call it Grimdark 41k, just a suggestion.

Also I suggest d8 rather than d10. The d10 has a lovely range that that breaks down into neat 10% increments but 6s and 9s read ambiguously and the small faces present table stability issues.

d8 is stable, has no 9 to mix up with 6s and still gives a decent enough range. Increments are 12.5% which sounds almost as unintuitive as the d6s 16.6r% but a lot of the time that is more a intuitive 25%, 50%, 75% chance.

The 6. and 9. faces are easily read.

But if the concept is d8, OMG, just stick with d6. d8 is just changing the die for the sake of changing the die.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The 6. and 9. faces are easily read.

But if the concept is d8, OMG, just stick with d6. d8 is just changing the die for the sake of changing the die.

Agreed. Also, I have never had any problems reading the 6 and 9. Usually there is a _ beneath them to halp you, and if not it is quite easy to glance at the next number over to confirm if it is a positive or negative.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

I don't see how, if things are headed towards AoS then will we see our leaders/support becoming a benefit in stemming that from happening. Just for instance, Commissar blams a guy, squad doesn't run, Priest makes squad Fearless, Banners, just like BSB in AoS, would allow us to roll two dice and pick the lowest. Let's not forget the CCS orders, plus if they add inspiring presence into 8th ed.

I could only see it becoming a problem if you don't take any of those options readily given to you

You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

Yes! Exactly, very akin to my second post on this forum

Here's how I picture things happening:

Inspiring Presence will be available to everyone. So right off the the bat, your general can make one nearby unit immune to Battleshock.

Commissars. They start by performing a summery execution on a unit, making it immune to Battleshock at the cost of wounds suffered. Alternatively, they can have a copy of the Dark Elf Dreadlord's The Price Of Failure ability. If anyone from a friendly unit within 3" of him flees, all other units within 14" of him don't need to take Battleshock tests, as he makes an example of the deserters.

Priests. They can have a prayer to help pass battleshock tests, like Luthor Huss's Unbending Righteousness prayer.

Then there's banners and vox casters. They can have passive abilities to help out too. We'll have lots of ways of dealing with Battleshock.

 Zontarz wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

I don't see how, if things are headed towards AoS then will we see our leaders/support becoming a benefit in stemming that from happening. Just for instance, Commissar blams a guy, squad doesn't run, Priest makes squad Fearless, Banners, just like BSB in AoS, would allow us to roll two dice and pick the lowest. Let's not forget the CCS orders, plus if they add inspiring presence into 8th ed.

I could only see it becoming a problem if you don't take any of those options readily given to you

Yeah, I have too little faith left in GW to believe that they would do something remotely competent and not just shaft the IG players even more.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP

Is.. that really necessary? Or is this just full wishlisting.

Have you ever used Ogryn?

Yeah. Absolutely necessary.

Not necessary at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and guardsmen are even crappier in Shadow Wars. Flak armour is now a 6+ armour save and lasguns do not have the -1 save modifiers they used to in Necromunda. Carapace armour also gives -1 initiative for the wearer. Such crap -_-

Carapace armor always did that, unfortunately. It severely hindered the enforcers as a faction.

 Zontarz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
You're doing the Commissar and Priest wrong - they should be bubbles that grant automatic effects.

BSB grants Stubborn to every unit with LOS to the BSB.

Priest is Fearless and grants Fearless to every Guard unit with 6".

Unit within 6" of a Commissar may sacrifice one model to automatically pass a Morale Test without any die roll required.

Yes! Exactly, very akin to my second post on this forum

OK... Tho that's not exactly what I was getting in the post immediately preceding...

If you mean a bubble, just say a bubble.

Well steel legion are getting rules again.

For Armageddon, at least.

IMO "gives something to units in x" " would be a significant nerf for a priest/commissar. At least if they couldn't join units and hide behind a wall of extra wounds and the same time extending their bubbles to other unit(s) nearby.
Would be just too point-click/sigmar like: "I deepstrike my unit, shoot everything at that model that provides good bonuses, kill him, your army is now 50% less effective, you just stand there and watch it".

 CragHack wrote:
IMO "gives something to units in x" " would be a significant nerf for a priest/commissar. At least if they couldn't join units and hide behind a wall of extra wounds and the same time extending their bubbles to other unit(s) nearby.

Officers have a 12" Ld / Orders bubble. Nids have a 12" Synapse bubble. Why wouldn't Priests & Commissars not have a bubble if they join a unit?

Because this whole bubble thing is more of an AoS thing. And bubble givers in AoS walk alone. So if they gave more bubblers to 40k...you get the idea. Though, as I've said, I wouldn't mind if Priests could join units and give fearless in a 12".

And orders, technically, ain't a bubble, cause you still have to pass them. And the LD bubble is only 6", that comes from a single T3 5+/5++ model, that can't issue orders. But that's another topic

Given that 40k already has bubbles, and that mechanic predates AoS entirely, I'm going to dispute that it's not more of an AoS thing.

The not joining units is an AoS thing, and completely separate from what I had proposed - that's something you added.