What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?

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**Makari wins**

Grav cannon Sentinal
Lascannon sponsons for Russes (would fit with the vanquisher and even better with the annihilator variant.. which has a 2xTL lascannon turret) - 5 las cannon shots per turn

give stromtroopers/scions WS4, A2 and a hotshot laspistol so they have 3 attacks, they are supposed to be the best trained humans.. on par with commisars.
also...give hotshot shred

**BrianDavion**

Nerak wrote:
don_mondo wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'd be all for seeing more things akin to chapter tactics, which we did see with traitor legions.so hopefully other factions will follow.

We used to have them in a previous codex. Best (IMO) IG codex we have had. You could customize your army with (IIRC) up to five skill sets/doctrines, some of which were free and applied army wide (Yes, you could make the entire army into drop troops for FREE!) and some of which cost points and could be applied on a unit by unit basis.

That was 4th ed, and represented gws overall design philosophy at the time. You could do some pretty cool stuff with ig, sm, tyranids, chaos and eldar back then. In IGs case the biggest where probably all deep strike army, fully mechanised, all get 4+save, all get +1 cover and all units could infiltrate the biggest thing. Theese things did not apply to tanks though. Also in accordance with said design all armies warger sections where significantly larger with more options for every model.

In 5th ed GW changed that philosophy and put the focus on special characters, making it "herohammer". Most special characters got a special rule that extended to the entire army. Most of said rules equavelents had been available before as upgrades in the form of doctrines. Wargear secrions where much reduced and streamlined for unit entries.

Not sure what happened in 6th, I honestly wasn't around.

Now in 7th ed most armies has formations to fill up a similar role that doctrines and then special characters did, as well as much more extensive army specific special rules. Frankly I think the best solution was the 4th ed one.

I think making it a bit too open that way would proably be broken, when you have 20 things you can combine in any combo it's a lot easier for things to be broken.

However some general regimental tactics might work.

you could for example take "mechanized" as your regimental tactic and all your vehicles now have the fast rule. (suddenly chimerias are awesome) etc.

**Badablack**

If we get new guard sculpts they should be slightly smaller with more realistic proportions. Rank and file IG are stuck in the dark past with their enormous heads and hands, slim em down a bit so they're more in line with all the other 40k beasties.

Give them a generic torso and legs, then have upgrade packs with heads/weapons/arms for the many assorted guardsmen armies out there. Heck, bring out plastic Elysians and Death Korps. Two IG armies with very different play styles and equally different/awesome aesthetics.

**Fafnir**

I wouldn't mind seeing the next codex accomodate Elysians and Krieg, but I wouldn't care to see a GW release of models for them. Those two regiments have their own models and identity under Forgeworld, no need for redundancies there when there are an endless array of worlds in the Imperium with their own unique regiments that could be represented to push diversity even further.

For all the neglect that the guard face, they should be the most diverse and variable faction in the entire 40k setting. No point in treading over old ground, especially when those original models are already doing fantastically on their own.

**War Kitten**

You know what I want for Guard? Solar Auxilia type models. And what MoO said on page one

**Badablack**

Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

**BrianDavion**

Badablack wrote:
Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

the best answer would be for GW to introduce new regiments that share eneugh kits for a single "buy 1 kit, build both" kit to work

**Makari wins**

Oh yeah, and rough riders ought to have a point reduction to 9 points...
or just simply be replaced by Death riders (from Dkok codex)

for rough rider cost +5p they get;
4+ sv
FNP (6+)
+1W
+1A
krak grenades

re-roll dangerous terrain tests
Stubborn
and can take commissars and priests

and the option to upgrade to include scout if i remember correctly.. +10p per squad?

**HatlessHorseMan**

Badablack wrote:
Releasing basic plastic troops did wonders for boosting 30k popularity due to not spending your whole budget on the core, the same would be even more true for plastic FW guardsmen. Because screw throwing that much money at a resin horde army.

The only problem is that the many varieties of marines are very modular with the differences between chapters easily denoted through head/shoulder swaps. Guardsmen have very different models between worlds. Tallarn vs Krieg vs Valhalla, 3 armies of guys in coats that are nothing alike aesthetically. An updated non cadian plastic guardsmen sprue would need some sort of generic torso/legs that any number of special heads/weapons would match to. I'd imagine they'd have different back torso sections for coated and normal guardsmen and a limited amount of front torsos to stop people from using their 10 man sprues to make extras.

GW could just sell boxes of guardsmen with great coats and sell heads separately. Boom, Steel Legion, Valhallans, and Vostroyans are now in plastic. IDK why they don't do this with Tallarns already, seeing as they are just Cadians with a special head wrapping. Mordians could only be done with their own cast, so I doubt we'll ever see them in plastic.

**master of ordinance**

Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

**BrianDavion**

master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

(Or better yet reverse the obscene power bloat)

problem is, make em too powerful and you've got space marines, guard need to be about cheap man power thats their thing.

**Fafnir**

While they're overcosted for their performance, the IG tempestus/stormtroopers manage to exhibit an attempt at a happy medium of cost to power. Vets can come close, but they suffer the problem of having lasguns, and lasguns being absolute garbage.

Of course, I say this as someone who doesn't like massive infantry swarms, preferring a force of badass normals.

**Cothonian**

Badablack wrote:
If we get new guard sculpts they should be slightly smaller with more realistic proportions. Rank and file IG are stuck in the dark past with their enormous heads and hands, slim em down a bit so they're more in line with all the other 40k beasties.

Give them a generic torso and legs, then have upgrade packs with heads/weapons/arms for the many assorted guardsmen armies out there. Heck, bring out plastic Elysians and Death Korps. Two IG armies with very different play styles and equally different/awesome aesthetics.

Two advantages to slimming Guardsmen models down to smaller, more proper proportions: 1. They will look better, and 2. it'll make things like Marines and Orks look all the more imposing in comparison to normal human troops.

I will admit though, as I already have an army, it'll be a little rough having two sizes of guardsmen on the table

**War Kitten**

I think the bog standard Guardsman should get better for his points cost instead of cheaper. There is a reason why I run mechanized Guard instead of a platoon list....

**Arbitrator**

master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

**master of ordinance**

Arbitrator wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

**flamingkillamajig**

master of ordinance wrote:
What we want:
>A points deduction on all Troops choices Sure seems reasonable.
>Lasguns become worth a damn (longer range would help) They're ok when spammed but only vs hordes. I suppose a slight increase or points drop is fine
>Cheaper special and heavy weapons They could also have different types of special and heavy weapons but sure i guess.
>Side armour 11 for the Chimera, along with a points reduction Maybe but raiders cost a crap ton as well.
>Vox casters give unlimited order range I honestly didn't know they didn't have that already.
>Standards are actually useful Dunno what they changed but regimental used to give re-roll LD.
>Relics are not overpriced garbage I don't know enough on this subject.
>Most HQ units have a 20% points reduction Aren't your HQ's already cheap? Dark eldar have to pay like 100 pts after gear. Dark eldar need way cheaper HQ's but dunno about guard.
>Orders become more versatile Somewhat. They're ok but could use more.
>Priests regain access to the Evisicrator Sure.
>Storm Troopers get a 20% points reduction Ok.
>Hellguns become S4 AP3 Assault 3 Points reduction or better guns but not both.
>Volleyguns become S5 AP3 Assault 6 Same with above and an assault 6 gun on infantry is pretty nuts. Splinter cannons are salvo and shoot 6 ap 5 poisoned shots for like 10-15 pts each.
>Ogryns are dropped to 20 PPM, gain rending and a 4+ armour save. Oh, and FNP Too much. Grotesques are T5, 3 wounds, rampage, FnP, with flesh gauntlets (6's cause instant death but otherwise counts as poisoned) and 6+ armor for 35 pts and they're considered good. Melee is not guard's strength so it should be at best 25 ppm if not higher if you want all that.
>Bullgryns drop to 28-30 PPM and gain a 3+ save, FNP and modular loadout options Do they not already have a 3+ save or do they need to lock up to do so? I expect no higher than 35 pts or 30 pts if they get more melee options.
>Ratlings become somewhat useful Agreed.
>Sentinels have a 5-10 point reduction in cost I guess.
>Hellhound chassis drop in price by 50% It's been a while since i saw the cost but i remember hellhounds and banewolves being decent.
>GW listens to the communities ideas and advice about what to do with Rough Riders... Or just squats them I actually wanted some in 5th. I think it was the only thing i could think of to handle necrons or possibly tau at the time. They could use some love.
>Leman Russ chassis drop in price by between 15% to 30%, chassis dependent Maybe.
>Leman Russ chassis become 4HP models and regain Lumbering Behemoth No to 4 HP but yes to lumbering behemoth.
>All vehicles gain the ability to become veterans (+1 BS) for 10 points That would actually be pretty interesting esp. for the punisher, vanquisher and any tank that fires off a few shots that are highly dependent on BS.
>The Manticore and Basilisk come down in price by about 20% Never used either and dunno what happened.
>The Deathstrike becomes SD with a +2 on the table Absolutely. Void Raven should also shoot out str 10 ap 1 or Str D as well with the void mine at least and void lances hopefully. Also increase blast size for void mine. Hopefully deathstrike has a big template too.
>Griffons, Bombards and Medusas return Cutting off a bunch of the guard units was bs. However what purpose do they have that the other guard artillery can't already fulfill esp. wyverns?
>The Vanquisher becomes an actual tank killer and monster killer.
>No more Gets Hot on the Executioner Agreed that was a total crap move on GW's part.
>Hydras become good against ground targets again and drop in price Don't know enough about hydras but be glad you have some dedicated AA in your army. Dark eldar get 2 flyers for AA and they're not good at that job.
>Baneblade chassis become part of the army Still of the idea super-heavies and gargantuan have no place in regular 40k. Seriously without either the imbalance would drop considerably.
>Malcador and Machirus tanks become part of the army and can be used in the place of Baneblades in formations Same as above.
>Formations that are actually worth a damn and do cripple your wallet and army to bring Yes but the only good dark eldar formations (ones that do anything) are all in the covens book. Our armies both need some love.
>New models that actually look decent Eh i think the guard got some nice looking models. The bane mask bullgryns maybe aren't too hot but i think guard vehicles can look nice. I am also blessed because if it's one thing GW can do really well aesthetically it's making nice elf/eldar models for each of those separate factions including dark eldar (though harlie masks on all harlie units looks stupid to me). Honestly aesthetics is the least i worry about with guard and dark eldar but more with marine armies (centurions and dreadknights) which i give no ****s about because i hate most marines (dark angels might be an exception).

What we will probably get though will be:
>A 10% to 20% pints increase across the board (because Guard still occasionally beat Marines)
>Leman Russ tanks become AV 13/12/10 (because Marine tanks do not have good armour so why should Guard)
>Battlecannons become S7 and Earthshakers S8, and both become AP4 (because Marines should not be vulnerable to heavy ordnance at all, even when caught in the open)
>Lasguns become S2 (after all, Hellguns are S3)
>A new, poorly named, shoddily designed and completely useless model that we didnt ask for

My opinions in bold as a current dark eldar and previous guard player in 5th.

**BrianDavion**

master of ordinance wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

the guard theme however IS "massed waves of dudes" yeah I agree for a lot of people it's not a very feesable set up, but turning them into a small elite units build runs the risk of "space marine scouts... the army!"

**Fafnir**

master of ordinance wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Someone above mentioned bringing the Guard back to their basic level: The Platoon.

This is, to me at least, a stupid idea. An army composed of platoons of infantry is neither viable nor flexible enough to ever function. What is more, transporting such a huge (660 models for three basic troops choices) is quite frankly virtually impossible without a car.... Or a large dumper truck. What is more, setting up and moving all of those figures is a massive pain, and when they get killed the effect of removing vast swathes of infantry is really demoralising.

No, the Guard need to be buffed. "MOAR MANZ" is not the answer, and it will never be. There is a finite limitation that players are willing to collect, and that is practical to use. More power, not more manz.

Uh, was that meant to be directed at me? Considering I brought up platoons and said the total opposite of wanting to push 'DUDE WAVE TACTICS LMAO'.

Not you, someone else.

There is one thing I want to put to none-Guard players who are just insisting on cheaper units and more of them: Have you ever tried to transport 800+ models and set them up, then play with them? Or for that matter, have you trid affording them, then assembling and painting them?

Even from the perspective of playing against them, those massive infantry lines just take too damn long to do anything. Massed infantry guard just aren't fun for anyone.

**Future War Cultist**

The guard do face a huge conundrum. They have to be individually weaker than the astrates and most xenos, but this means that you'll need to field a lot of them in order to make them work. This is expensive and time consuming to collect, and not much fun to step up and play with or against.

I think one way around it could be to make armoured and mechanised lists more viable. It bugs me that the leman russ isn't featured more in the game, when you look at the massive land armies of WW2 with their legions of tanks. If they made the tanks the main focus and the infantry secondary, people might feel more comfortable collecting them. I'm sure painting up a dozen or so tanks is way more fun than painting hundreds of infantry.

If done right, a good army could be a tank commander, two to three squadrons of leman ruses and a single platoon worth of mechanised infantry with some air support.

One idea I had knocking around was to allow the transports of platoons to squadron up, and the infantry squads in those transports can join together during the game. So you could have a whole platoons worth of infantry in a squadron of chimeras, and when they reach their objective they bail out, "mob up" and become the classic combined infantry mob.

Just my ramblings on the subject.

**Orthon**

It is Astra Militarum not guard now.

I would not get your hopes up. GW will continue the nerf train AM. Not out of the realm of possibility:

Remove orders to “streamline play” in 8th edition.

Creed and Kell removed because some named character must be removed and they died on Cadia, which doesn’t exist anymore.

Increase the cost of the Chimera by 30 points.

Increase cost of Vendettas by 30 points.

Remove shred from Wyverns and give it a minimum range of 24”.

Ogryns: at the start of the game roll a D6. On a 1, you lose the game.

Make it so Leman Russ can only fire one gun per turn and then they are removed from play.

On a roll of a 1 the Deathstrike explodes at strength D apocalyptic large blast.

Have a formation that requires 200 guardsmen that removes objective secured… drat we already did that!

Fluffwise, the AM continue to get creamed in the fluff and are absorbed into the Tau empire. Leman Russes are replaced by Riptides. God Emperor Guilliman after ascending to the Golden Throne, saves the day with his sword and kills a Stormsurge in one hit. The Tau bow to his might and are absorbed into the Order Grand Alliance Faction along with Aeldari (no longer Eldar) who were already there since they helped create God Emperor Guilliman. The Astra Militarum become imperial again and are still gak except now AM can take Riptides and Stormsurges instead of tanks. Aeldari farseers replace command squads. Really AM are just reduced to conscript human waves since that is all they are good at and vehicles remain utter gak, but they have their place under the Tau, Aeldari, and Guilliman in the new Imperium Secundus.

**Rav1rn**

The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

On top of this, they require a great deal of time to paint, a great deal of money to buy, and a great deal of time to play, since moving 300 models is a slow and laborious process.

Optimistically, id like to see themed formations and detachments introducing the variety and efficacy the guard deserves, with a wide range of new models introduced through campaign sets to boost interest in the faction, but i know that GW lacks either the will or the ability to do them right, so I expect the guard to continue their slow slide into obscurity.

**Sledgehammer**

Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

This is in my opinion the absolute crux problem that the guard has. In order for a plucky human to be effective he needs to use his head not his brawn. The mechanics do not give guardsman any real advantage for thinking cleverly, so you have to rely on numbers and statistics rather than actual tactics.

**Fafnir**

Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

**Sledgehammer**

Fafnir wrote:
Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Maybe the next edition will go in that direction, but I think I have a better shot of winning the lotto =(

**Rav1rn**

Fafnir wrote:

Rav1rn wrote:
The big issue with the guard, aside from the pretty obvious neglect, is that the game mechanics don't play to what should be their strengths.

The guard is designed to play like a force of weak components that is devastating when used cleverly, yet the mechanics have no tactical elements letting players do this.
--No flanking
--No real suppression system
--No combined fire bonuses

The rules lack of depth means the most important factors are a units ability to kill stuff, and live long enough to keep killing stuff. Guard units are just not that good at killing things, and most units aren't very tough. This is supplemented with the orders system, but clearly its not enough.

"The Guard don't work in 40k because 40k is a bad game"

...it's sad, but it's true.

In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.

For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.

Short term, this is probably the solution. Long term, i'd like to see these systems in the main rules, as there's no real reason only the guard can do this. Once those rules are in place, the orders system is actually a pretty good idea for how to allow officers (and thus players) to augment their troops behavior, while showcasing the guards hierarchical structure.

A major cause of the problems the guard face is, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, is that the game has gotten too "mythic". Everything is about deathstars, super-heavies, and USR combinations because there's no finesse to anything. The best defense is now the same as the best offense; Kill everything before it can attack you.

In the face of wraithlords, knight titans, riptides, and the many varieties of deathstars, infantry serve no purpose since even "elite" infantry like space marines can be wiped out in a single phase with little to no way to respond. This would be less of a problem if these units were treated like the centerpieces they are, being limited to 1 (maybe even 2) per player and assigned objectives and victory conditions for damaging or destroying them to offset their destructive power, but instead they're treated like regular units.

In order for the guard and other horde armies like orks and tyranids to really get back into the game, the rules and releases need to refocus on the role of regular infantry.

GW thinks no one wants to play with infantry because infantry are intrinsically boring. Rather, no one wants to play with infantry because they can't do anything besides sit on an objective and use a special weapon.

**Fafnir**

Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!). As you've said, infantry has become nothing more than pointless chaff in the current state of the game. GW constantly pushing the game bigger and bigger into All Apocalypse All the Time means that so much firepower just becomes necessary for the sake of even moving things along. The entire game needs to be rebuilt with a smaller, more intimate scale in mind.

**flamingkillamajig**

Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

**Fafnir**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/

**NivlacSupreme**

flamingkillamajig wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Another thing that would really help the Guard is an overall reduction in the game's scale (I'm looking at you, Age of Sigmar!).

Don't. Just DON'T! I invested probably a thousand dollars and 5-7 years into warhammer fantasy. If GW wants to scale down slightly or have a side game that's toned down slightly that's fine. However AoS went way the **** too far in every possible way. I can't even recognize my poor game anymore and they gave no choice to keep playing Fantasy. It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.

Wow. That's...

Even some people at GW HQ still play 8th.