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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/29 17:43:13
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Brutal Black Orc
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vim_the_good wrote:https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.
What I find most interesting is them saying: "You no longer needing it (carapace and flakk)". Power-armored guardsmen? What is going on...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/29 17:44:00
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Powerful Pegasus Knight
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vim_the_good wrote:https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.
I think It's just a fluff piece. The release schedule seems way too tight between now and June for guard to get any releases, and I doubt they'd be teasing anything coming further down the line than then anyway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/29 17:44:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/29 18:16:22
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
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vim_the_good wrote:https://regimental-standard.com/2017/03/29/your-new-medical-kit/
This is interesting. I wonder if it hints at Guard getting access to medipacs at the squad level for a nice FNP roll.
It's about the new citadel tools.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/29 21:31:59
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Arbitrator wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:FTFY. WFB8 was mindless and stultifying, where AoS is clean and clear. The fact that you're still desperate over it here only shows who the obnoxious fanboi is.
Spoken like somebody who's obviously never played it, whilst defending a game with four pages of rules.
U mad, bro?
Point of fact, I did play WFB8, and I didn't enjoy it. It was stupid and mindless and unbalanced. "Ooh.. IF Purple Sun?" "GG."
My group completely stopped playing Fantasy after our second game of 8E. 8E killed WFB for us because it stopped being fun.
AoS, I can start over with. The 4 pages of core rules are easy enough to learn, as is having ALL of the unit-specific rules printed right there on the unit sheet. But you go on being butthurt over AoS being more successful than WFB 8, in a thread that's supposed to be about wishlisting Imperial Guard.
And getting back on topic, it's not obvious that IG will fare any better under 40k 8E, which is really too bad. 8E should be the chance to reset and rebalance. *sigh*
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/29 23:26:57
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Although, I suppose that if the new edition does indeed replace AP with Rend and modified armor saves, seeing as most weapons should be Rend - or Rend -1, that means hopefully regular infantry will get to actually make saves without necessarily relying on cover alone. If current AP5 weapons become Rend -1, that's a 6+ in the open as opposed to no save at all in the open, but I guess it sucks to be Orks or Nids. I feel that's more likely than bolters and equivalent becoming Rend -, though all of the horde armies would probably love that. Not sure how cover and invul saves will count. Maybe cover will modify your generic save, and perhaps Invul will be a separate save immune to Rend or any other modifiers and never rerollable? Mostly speculation, but if GW does something like that it could address a lot of long-standing issues, like rerollable 2++ death stars and the inherent weakness of non-MEQ basic infantry. Also curious to see what happens to psychic come 8th. Obviously Daemons and Invis death stars need to be toned the feth down, and Tau and Necrons really need some way to deal with it (aside being told "L2P and ally SoS/Culexus, skrub"). Whether or not powers are added or removed and whether random power generation continues could seriously impact the utility of IG psyker support. On one hand, I'd love to pay for the 4++ and Rending Divination powers, but I think opponents would start to grumble about it, plus buying specific powers would outright break Invis as it currently is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/29 23:28:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 00:28:16
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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but I guess it sucks to be Orks or Nids
At least 'Ard boyz might actually have a purpose.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 12:23:03
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6
Assuming they translate current stats in this way, this will BENEFIT GEQs vs MEQS. Think about it: guardsmen aren't used to getting armor saves in the open against marines, but suddenly your autocannons and heavy bolters are forcing them to make saves on 6s.... Automatically Appended Next Post: This is bad news for power armor, but if terminator armor is 3+ on 2d6, terminators might start seeing some use again. .. Automatically Appended Next Post: This system would make our current cheap heavy/special weapons need to be a bit more expensive for the sake of game balance...
And we might start seeing sigmari.... uh, I mean numarines with 2wounds base....
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/30 12:37:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 13:08:40
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.
Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/30 13:10:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 13:57:04
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Future War Cultist wrote:I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.
Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.
So AP4 weapons like autocannons and heavy bolters become rend -0?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 14:25:34
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Future War Cultist wrote:I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.
Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.
That'd still result in the same spamming of Ap 3 or less weapons we have now.
I'd say:
Ap -/6 = No modifier
Ap 5/4 = -1
Ap 3 = -2
Ap 2 = -3
Ap1 = -4
Then just tone done the excessive access to powerful invulnerable saves (Storm Shields etc).
And FNP and RP boosting effects.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 15:09:24
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Jbz` wrote: Future War Cultist wrote:I would have suggested that AP:3 is -1, AP:2 is -2 and AP:1 is -3. Same for strength 8-10.
Now everyone's saves matter more. Especially if cover increases your save.
That'd still result in the same spamming of Ap 3 or less weapons we have now.
I'd say:
Ap -/6 = No modifier
Ap 5/4 = -1
Ap 3 = -2
Ap 2 = -3
Ap1 = -4
Then just tone done the excessive access to powerful invulnerable saves (Storm Shields etc).
And FNP and RP boosting effects.
I think I like this more than what I proposed. Would Terminators save 3+ on 2d6 in your proposed rending system?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 15:15:04
Subject: Re:What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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CplPunishment wrote: I think I like this more than what I proposed. Would Terminators save 3+ on 2d6 in your proposed rending system? Probably not. But then the base invulnerable save on terminator armour could be folded into the basic armour save, making it need more significant modifiers before it changes (Like Fantasy's 1+ save used to) instead of being completely useless against anything that isn't Ap2 Or, it could work like Ward saves did where if you failed you're armour you got to roll the second save (Which is a lot less broken with the modifiers to the armour save and not being excessive with the ward/regen saves)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/30 15:17:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 16:04:57
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5
This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 16:08:55
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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CplPunishment wrote:On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5
This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?
It was like that in 2nd, and regular marines were basically useless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 16:19:21
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Martel732 wrote:CplPunishment wrote:On second thought, I think a compromise between our proposed ap to rending conversion table would be best. It would look something like this:
Ap-/6 is rend -0 (when was the last time Ap6 made a difference anyhow?)
Ap5 is rend -1
Ap4 is rend -2 (guardsmen shouldn't get armor saves vs autocannons IMHO)
Ap3 is rend -3
Ap2 is rend -4 (so that MEQs don't get a save against plasma equivalents)
Ap1 is rend -5
This will change things a lot, however. Should guardsmen get a 6+ against a bolter? What will marine players say about getting a 5+ against heavy bolters?
It was like that in 2nd, and regular marines were basically useless.
Good point. What if power armor conferred +1 S +1 T +1W? Would that even the odds?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 16:25:32
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I have no idea, honestly. The +1 W makes marines about as durable vs heavy bolter as they are now if heavy bolter is a -2 rend.
My issue with this system is that GW can't control themselves. In 2nd ed, all shuriken weapons had an additional -1 to the armor save penalty. This meant grunts with shuriken catapults were rocking a -2 and the Vypers were spitting out dozens of hits with -3 armor save. I lost several games in 2nd without getting a turn. Needless to say, I'm not playing that again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 17:36:21
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Martel732 wrote:I have no idea, honestly. The +1 W makes marines about as durable vs heavy bolter as they are now if heavy bolter is a -2 rend.
My issue with this system is that GW can't control themselves. In 2nd ed, all shuriken weapons had an additional -1 to the armor save penalty. This meant grunts with shuriken catapults were rocking a -2 and the Vypers were spitting out dozens of hits with -3 armor save. I lost several games in 2nd without getting a turn. Needless to say, I'm not playing that again.
If my calculations are correct, you are right
a BS3 S5 AP4 Hvy3 heavy bolter has a 33% chance of killing a t4 w1 sv3+ marine
A BS3 S5 Rend -2 Hvy3 has a 33% chance of killing a t4 w2 sv3+ marine
Methinks some more mathammer is in order.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 17:52:15
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Hmm, in order to keep the best Rend at -3, I had imagined the hypothetical Rend table to be AP -/6 => Rend 0 AP 5 => Rend -1 AP 4/3 => Rend -2 AP 2/1 => Rend -3 Mostly because AP 6 is so rarely relevant that it can safely be treated as AP - without too much outcry, Autocannons and Heavy Bolters need a bit of a buff, so sticking them with AP3 weapons is much more apt than with bolters and the like (krak missiles too weak?). And, except for making vehicles a bit more likely to explode, is there really any difference between AP 2 and 1 weapons? And yeah, I think this would benefit the weaker infantry, but Terminator armor probably needs a 2D6 save roll to be not useless like they are now. Would snake eyes = dead, or should/would it be impossible to kill termies with Rend 0?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/30 17:54:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 18:31:07
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 18:32:44
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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CplPunishment wrote:The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...
The curse of the D6.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 18:35:03
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Brutal Black Orc
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Martel732 wrote:CplPunishment wrote:The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...
The curse of the D6.
I thought that was rolling lots of 1s except when testing leadership.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 18:35:32
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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That's the OTHER curse of the D6.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 18:42:07
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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CplPunishment wrote:It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6
This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 19:09:11
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Martel732 wrote:CplPunishment wrote:The common problem I see with these ap to rend tables is that heavy bolters are becoming more cost effective anti MEQ than plasma, and plasma is more effective anti GEQ than bolters...
The curse of the D6.
I could see a lot of these issues being solved by using a d10 and tweaking stats accordingly. I'd be willing to try d10s, but a lot of GW gamers find the idea unthinkable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 19:10:41
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 19:57:41
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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CplPunishment wrote: master of ordinance wrote:CplPunishment wrote: master of ordinance wrote:CplPunishment wrote:If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.
Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex
I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.
You do the rules, I do the Codex?
But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.
Well then we would be just like GW  but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 20:29:34
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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Bobthehero wrote:CplPunishment wrote:It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6
This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...
I guess you won't be exalting my suggestion post then.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 20:46:13
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Martel732 wrote:Because they lack vision and won't spend 20 bucks on new dice when they spend 100+ for whatever new hotness GW vomits forth from the dark recesses of their addled brains.
At first I was on the fence about d6 vs d10, but now I'm starting to think d10s would help with the AP to rend transition.
All percentages assume rend =0 AP = -
D6 armor:
2+ terminator/artificer armor (83.33% saved)
3+ power armor (66.66% saved)
4+ carapace armor (50% saved)
5+ flak jacket (33.33% saved)
6+ flak vest (16.66% saved)
D10 armor:
2+ terminator armor (90% saved)
3+ artificer armor (80% saved)
4+ power armor (70% saved)
5+ ???
6+ carapace (50% saved)
7+ ???
8+ flak jacket (30% saved)
9+ flak vest (20% saved)
10+ ???
Looking at the two systems, I'd say that current AP values could be translated inversely to become rending values and plugged into the d10 system more fairly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 20:51:30
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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Future War Cultist wrote: Bobthehero wrote:CplPunishment wrote:It would make more sense for rend to translate as follows:
AP- is rend -0
AP6 is rend -1
AP5 is rend -2
AP4 is rend -3
AP3 is rend -4
AP2 is rend -5
AP1 is rend -6
This would be ideal, but I am fairly sure we'll go with atrocities like AP 3 being -1...
I guess you won't be exalting my suggestion post then.
Not really, no, one of the Scions gimmick is that they get AP3 guns on their basic dude, making AP 3 be THAT bad pretty much invalidates one of my army (and my two favorite units)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/30 20:51:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/03/30 20:53:30
Subject: What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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master of ordinance wrote:CplPunishment wrote: master of ordinance wrote:CplPunishment wrote: master of ordinance wrote:CplPunishment wrote:If there is one thing this thread has shown me, it is that the guard may have two parallel futures that could coexist in our dimension: one where GW continues the current path with the "Astra Militarum" and its loyal fans tag along; another where the Imperial Guard returns to its former glory thanks to fan-made rules (along with other neglected/abused factions) a la 9th edition WHFB.
Well, perhaps it is time for me to start writing that codex
I started drafting one too, then I realized it might be prudent to draft a new set of main rules first. Who's with me?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can call it GRIMDARK: Future Wars.
You do the rules, I do the Codex?
But what if I write rules that don't mesh with your codex? Probably best to assemble a team to brainstorm the core rules, Then teams for each codex. First things first.
Well then we would be just like GW  but seriously if you want to do it then I am more than happy too.
I'm more than happy to brainstorm/cooperate with people on a free rulebook. But If I'm writing core rules by myself, I'm going to make terminologies vague enough that I'm not stepping on GW's IP. That way I can publish the rules for the game.
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