icn1982 wrote: As a side note, I think increasing the range of any small arms weapon over 24inches was a mistake, the point of 24 inches being the maximum range was so that armies would actually have to move in order get within range of the enemy with most of their weapons. Now you have basic weapons that can shoot 30+ inches and thus hit your opponent from turn one without moving.
The fact that the rules about shooting are so simple and have not evolved since 3rd edition, despite 4 new editions and nearly 20 years of professional rules writing, is fething embarassing.
I want ranges to be at least double their current level, so long as cover is revamped, long range penalties and target priority rules are introduced, and some sort of flanking system is put in place.
Because you're right, the current rules are so mind numbingly simple that the best option is to sit at max range and blast away, since clever maneuvering and getting closer offers no benefits other than bringing you closer for melee units to charge and an extra shot with rapid fire weapons. And even with rapid-fire weapons, they often get used for suicide tactics like sternguard drops and chaos terminator deep strikes.
icn1982 wrote: Stop focusing on objective based games and get back to actually killing the enemy.
Having the game revolve only around killing enemy units would be a huge mistake, as that means the only units that will be fielded and designed are units that focus on damage. If objectives don't exist, it will be harder to create different army compositions that feel appropriate and much, much more difficult to create an all comers list, because you would have to have enough of every counter for anything (mass-infantry, armor, aircraft, superheavies).
For example, an all infantry list and an all armor list could conceivably face each other in a tournament, and the armor player should have a strong damage advantage since 80% of the enemy's units aren't a threat, and we don't expect the remaining 20% of the list to have enough anti-tank firepower to take out 5 times their points in armor. If objectives don't exist, the armor player will just crush the infantry player, since they have such a firepower and durability advantage. But if there are objectives, the infantry player could play smart and win an objective victory, despite being at an overwhelming damage disadvantage.
icn1982 wrote: A Brand new and properly fleshed out regiment with a new line of models OR New plastic kits for each of the current regiments that are easy to interchange (If GW is worried about selling models, have each regiment/kit come with a single heavy and single special weapon that is preferred by the regiment like they did with the original metal models)
While this would be awesome, I would much prefer a single general purpose infantry kit that focuses on accessories and modular designs.
10 bare heads in the kit that can be used as is, but there's optional helmets, berets, gasmasks, communication headsets, etc that fit onto the heads.
The torso has a standard back, but the front can be a standard uniform, simple tank top, or a trench coat. Then you can put tactical webbing or flak chest armor accessories on top of that.
This approach would let a single kit fit as many different regiment designs and players as possible, even if you only get one style of each type of accessory, without GW needing to make dozens of new molds, which seems laughably unlikely.
icn1982 wrote: Allow you to take heavy weapons platoons and specialist platoons.
While I agree that this should be an option, maybe not equal access for every type of regiment? Light Infantry regiments for example probably shouldn't get as much access to heavy weapon platoons, but get more access to specialist platoons.
What about this...Infantry Squads get a bonus to their ballistic skill depending on how many models the unit has in it. 20-29 is +1, 30-39 is +2 and 40+ is +3. A unit of 50 infantry would have 40 lasgunners once you subtract sergeants and specials. At BS6, this would kill around four space marines under the current rules. Adding 5 plasma guns to that would kill another 4 space marines out of cover. Ordering this unit to bring it down would kill a Carnifex just with the lasguns!
Hawky wrote: Instead of increasing BS, I would give each lasgun/pistol an additional shot.
3/2 without FRF (close/long range)
4/3 with FRF
I have a unit in my custom codex with range 18 assault 3 lasguns, and they are actually pretty decently balanced according to all of the opponents that I have used them against.
Sledgehammer wrote: I have a unit in my custom codex with range 18 assault 3 lasguns, and they are actually pretty decently balanced according to all of the opponents that I have used them against.
This reminds me, hot shot lasguns should be given a stat line like that; 18" range assault 3, like those skitarii weapons.
Also, I'm OK with more shots for big units. I just figured that an increase in BS would be 'neater'.
Sledgehammer wrote: I have a unit in my custom codex with range 18 assault 3 lasguns, and they are actually pretty decently balanced according to all of the opponents that I have used them against.
This reminds me, hot shot lasguns should be given a stat line like that; 18" range assault 3, like those skitarii weapons.
Also, I'm OK with more shots for big units. I just figured that an increase in BS would be 'neater'.
Both would properly represent increased "accuracy" due to the sheer volume of shots.
NivlacSupreme wrote: Both would properly represent increased "accuracy" due to the sheer volume of shots.
Yeah exactly! I'm happy to go with either really. So I guess it's just a case of how much you like dice rolling.
Fafnir wrote: Either way, it's something taken straight from the playbook of Age of Sigmar.
Just like a lot of things that should happen in 40k are.
You said it!
I would hope that this would encourage people to take big units of IG infantry, provided that we also get their price under control. But with this, could a price drop be justified?
Well, I'm of the opinion that 40k needs less models on the table in general. I have no problem with their being more guardsmen fitting on a table than space marines (space marines need to be completely redesigned to reflect how powerful they actually are in the fluff anyway), but in terms of the raw number of models on a table, there needs to be less for standard games.
Fafnir wrote: Well, I'm of the opinion that 40k needs less models on the table in general. I have no problem with their being more guardsmen fitting on a table than space marines (space marines need to be completely redesigned to reflect how powerful they actually are in the fluff anyway), but in terms of the raw number of models on a table, there needs to be less for standard games.
So, maybe make 1000 points the standard? There's been a trend over the years to not only make models cost less points but also to raise the amount of points in a standard game.
At the shop closest to me the standard casual game is now 750 points as it lets people get more games in.
If they do a major overhaul in the next edition I could definitely see them raising points across the board. Not necessarily to make for lower model count games (people can play at whatever amount of points they want) but to make it easier to adjust points costs on the lower end. Right now it seems like a basic infantry model in a "hoard" army (guardsmen, boyz, 'gaunts) is ~5 points. If you take a point off or add a point to try to balance things between the armies that ends up being a big shift. If the standard cost of a basic infantry model was increased to ~10 points then adding a point or taking a point away wouldn't be as big of a change. Does that make sense?
NivlacSupreme wrote: Both would properly represent increased "accuracy" due to the sheer volume of shots.
Yeah exactly! I'm happy to go with either really. So I guess it's just a case of how much you like dice rolling.
Fafnir wrote: Either way, it's something taken straight from the playbook of Age of Sigmar.
Just like a lot of things that should happen in 40k are.
You said it!
I would hope that this would encourage people to take big units of IG infantry, provided that we also get their price under control. But with this, could a price drop be justified?
I do think that would work for the praetorian gunline army I'm going to get eventually.
Somebody should probably come up with bonuses for playing other styles of guard.
NivlacSupreme wrote: Both would properly represent increased "accuracy" due to the sheer volume of shots.
Yeah exactly! I'm happy to go with either really. So I guess it's just a case of how much you like dice rolling.
Fafnir wrote: Either way, it's something taken straight from the playbook of Age of Sigmar.
Just like a lot of things that should happen in 40k are.
You said it!
I would hope that this would encourage people to take big units of IG infantry, provided that we also get their price under control. But with this, could a price drop be justified?
I do think that would work for the praetorian gunline army I'm going to get eventually.
Somebody should probably come up with bonuses for playing other styles of guard.
I'm going to quote myself for something that would work for storm troopers/drop troopers:
In order to develop guard infantry (vehicles have always functioned as pretty much their own separate game in 40k, and the Guard's solutions on this front would be heavily built on fixing how vehicles function in 7th edition, so I won't touch on that for now), the IG would have to be built on an overhauled order system that could allow them to act as if they had some sort of flanking/suppression/combined fire system. Have orders function less like poor man's psyker buffs, and more like bonuses given for developing coordinated actions.
For example, draw an imaginary line between two units of guardsmen. If an enemy unit is intercepted by that line, both units may fire at the same time, with a severe bonus to reflect a 'flanking' maneuver (for example, imagine this flanking maneuver took up the shooting phase of only one of the flanking units, allowing the other unit to shoot a second time). This would allow stormtroopers and drop troops to act as their fluff actually suggests, while also giving potential for lots of tactical depth.
Future War Cultist wrote: What about this...Infantry Squads get a bonus to their ballistic skill depending on how many models the unit has in it. 20-29 is +1, 30-39 is +2 and 40+ is +3. A unit of 50 infantry would have 40 lasgunners once you subtract sergeants and specials. At BS6, this would kill around four space marines under the current rules. Adding 5 plasma guns to that would kill another 4 space marines out of cover. Ordering this unit to bring it down would kill a Carnifex just with the lasguns!
I'd make the following:
Revamp the company. Sure, make it 3 platoons, but make them 2-5 infantry squads and make it that you only need to field a sentinel. BAM! EFC is now a viable formation as you need only around 500pts to field it. Now, make that the squads get bonuses the more of them fire at a certain enemy.
If 11-20 guardsmen fire an enemy they re-roll ones to hit with ALL weapons. (change cadian bonus to extra orders on all officers, bonus for leader of detachment is issuing Yet another order, so creed could issue five of them in a turn.)
If 21-30 guardsmen fire an enemy they re-roll ones to wound.
If 31-40 guardsmen fire an enemy they re-roll failed to hit rolls and ones to wound.
If 41-50 guardsmen fire an enemy they re-roll all to hit and to wounds.
If 51-60 guardsmen fire an enemy they gain rending on their lasguns.
This would represent the weight of fire that the IG is famed for. One lasgun isn't worth much but a thousand are nightmare.
I think that the problem with encouraging massed guardsmen units is that you end up with big units that don't spread out across the battlefield and don't act indepentently.
How I envision my guard is that they have around 35 guardsman ( a platoon) and different battlefield assets to provide heavy fire support, recon, etc. Each unit has their role in my guard and they work best when used in tandem with each other.
Large units tend to be unwieldy and require you to shoot at a single unit, potentially wasting a lot of fire power.
I'd like guardsmen to be able to specialize each squad in order to reflect its individual role on the battle field. You might have a squad that is supposed to slowly advance, or hold the line, while another squad is light and fast, meant to ambush and outflank an enemy. The first squad would hold the line and force the enemy to overextend itself, while the second squad capatalizes on that moment. All the whilst a flexible unit like sentinels can provide support where needed.
Right. That's my problem. Okay you have your large blob. Your enemy's taking multiple small unit. Turn one you wipe one unit out. Turn two and three another small unit is in melee with your blob and he grabs all the objectives. He wins and you have little to show for it, because you couldn't split fire and you could be tarpitted.
Melissia wrote: Right. That's my problem. Okay you have your large blob. Your enemy's taking multiple small unit. Turn one you wipe one unit out. Turn two and three another small unit is in melee with your blob and he grabs all the objectives. He wins and you have little to show for it, because you couldn't split fire and you could be tarpitted.
Pretty much this. Or even worse, if your blob is not fearless and he throws in Kharne or another melee monster/powerful special character and wipes the blob out. Or even just tarpits them because he is insanely tough and it is physically impossible to get enough models into melee range with him to do any actual damage.
I think more on the company level myself. Instead of specialized squads, I'd have specialized platoons performing individual roles. But again, there's no reason why you couldn't have both. We just need suitable rules to help with small unit tactics as well. As for all that firepower going to waste, that's just 40k's clunky targeting mechanic. AoS's is much better. Point is, that needs fixed as well.
And let's not forget some of the other ideas we floated around here. Leman Russes granting 4+ cover saves to infantry units within 6" of them for starters. That would be a huge boon, would really represent the combined arms of the IG very well and let us advance in the open for once.
Melissia wrote: Right. That's my problem. Okay you have your large blob. Your enemy's taking multiple small unit. Turn one you wipe one unit out. Turn two and three another small unit is in melee with your blob and he grabs all the objectives. He wins and you have little to show for it, because you couldn't split fire and you could be tarpitted.
That's why you have artillery and air cav, too. After playing against it a bit more recently, the Valkyrie is amazing for 125 pts. Plus, IG can get reserve manipulation without fishing for it on a warlord chart. Yeah, Eldar and Tau are still brutal, but IG really have tools at least as good as BA, Orks, maybe even Necrons. Necrons haven't been winning as much in my area lately.
MSU like BA where we have to pay for everything isn't as good as it sounds unfortunately.
In theory, IG should be able to out-MSU just about any other unit, where losing individual units is so inconsequential, you'd never want to blob them. That is why I say that IG core (Platoons, Chimeras, Russes) needs to be cheap, so you can afford to throw them away as part of "acceptable losses".
NivlacSupreme wrote: Both would properly represent increased "accuracy" due to the sheer volume of shots.
Yeah exactly! I'm happy to go with either really. So I guess it's just a case of how much you like dice rolling.
Fafnir wrote: Either way, it's something taken straight from the playbook of Age of Sigmar.
Just like a lot of things that should happen in 40k are.
You said it!
I would hope that this would encourage people to take big units of IG infantry, provided that we also get their price under control. But with this, could a price drop be justified?
I do think that would work for the praetorian gunline army I'm going to get eventually.
Somebody should probably come up with bonuses for playing other styles of guard.
My idea was to give mordians and praetorians a "volley fire" doctrine. Basically, sergeants can issue the FRFSRF command to their own squad.
Scions need to be made better, because right now they can't really compete with vets, who are cheaper, can secure objectives and have access to more special weapons. And like all of our special troops, they're kinda garbage at present. So why not:
- give them the option to take a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong, just like Skitarii Vanguards and Rangers.
- make hot-shot lasguns Assault 2, or even Assault 3. It makes them actually deadly instead of gimmicky. I don't mind if it means reducing their range to compensate.
- give them Scout. Suddenly, they can Outflank. Or move forward before the first turn...in a fast DT. One thing that made us so good in 5th was our widespread outflanking. Make the IG outflank again.
- let the Tempestor and Tempestor Prime take melta bombs (I can't remember if they can at present).
- consider some point reductions for them and the Taurox Prime too.
Also, give the normal Taurox a points decrease and make it Fast.
Scions need to be made better, because right now they can't really compete with vets, who are cheaper, can secure objectives and have access to more special weapons. And like all of our special troops, they're kinda garbage at present. So why not:
- give them the option to take a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong, just like Skitarii Vanguards and Rangers.
- make hot-shot lasguns Assault 2, or even Assault 3. It makes them actually deadly instead of gimmicky. I don't mind if it means reducing their range to compensate.
- give them Scout. Suddenly, they can Outflank. Or move forward before the first turn...in a fast DT. One thing that made us so good in 5th was our widespread outflanking. Make the IG outflank again.
- let the Tempestor and Tempestor Prime take melta bombs (I can't remember if they can at present).
- consider some point reductions for them and the Taurox Prime too.
Also, give the normal Taurox a points decrease and make it Fast.
All great ideas. Hotshots should be 18" s3 ap3 assault2
If we get a doctrine system again, we should get access to a Grenadiers doctrine that opens Scions up as a troops choice.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, IG should be able to out-MSU just about any other unit, where losing individual units is so inconsequential, you'd never want to blob them. That is why I say that IG core (Platoons, Chimeras, Russes) needs to be cheap, so you can afford to throw them away as part of "acceptable losses".
The problem then is the Kill Point meta, whereby your opponent can lose just about everything but still win because he killed more of your throw away units than the number of units that he deployed in the first place.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, IG should be able to out-MSU just about any other unit, where losing individual units is so inconsequential, you'd never want to blob them. That is why I say that IG core (Platoons, Chimeras, Russes) needs to be cheap, so you can afford to throw them away as part of "acceptable losses".
The problem then is the Kill Point meta, whereby your opponent can lose just about everything but still win because he killed more of your throw away units than the number of units that he deployed in the first place.
The Kill Point meta needs to die mostly... a slow painful death if possible.
It never made any sense to begin with... back in my day, people would have KP relative to points costs, and that made sense since it represented the cost of achieving the mission.
If we get a doctrine system again, we should get access to a Grenadiers doctrine that opens Scions up as a troops choice.
I'm happy with hotshots having that stat line. It's about time we had serious firepower.
master of ordinance wrote: The problem then is the Kill Point meta, whereby your opponent can lose just about everything but still win because he killed more of your throw away units than the number of units that he deployed in the first place.
This is why we had combined squads introduced in the first place. I remember before the 5th ed book came in. Dark times.
One other thing I'd like to mention is that I wish a Platoon could count as 2 troops choices if you don't have any other troops. Then they would be much less cumbersome in 500 or 750 point games, and even a bare bones platoon is more bodies than what other people can do with 2 troops, like 2x5 or 2x10 cultists, scouts, etc. Assuming you want to bring said platoon and remain a legal CAD, you'll have to pass on making the platoon bigger/upgrading or mechanizing that second obligatory vet unit/taking a Russ. Obviously in larger games this is really not an issue, but in small games you're mostly forced to do 2 vet squads if you want any kind of vehicle support or special weapons.
KommissarKiln wrote: One other thing I'd like to mention is that I wish a Platoon could count as 2 troops choices if you don't have any other troops. Then they would be much less cumbersome in 500 or 750 point games, and even a bare bones platoon is more bodies than what other people can do with 2 troops, like 2x5 or 2x10 cultists, scouts, etc. Assuming you want to bring said platoon and remain a legal CAD, you'll have to pass on making the platoon bigger/upgrading or mechanizing that second obligatory vet unit/taking a Russ. Obviously in larger games this is really not an issue, but in small games you're mostly forced to do 2 vet squads if you want any kind of vehicle support or special weapons.
What goodies are you trying to fit into a 500-750 pt game that you can't? If you think abou it, 3 barebones vet squads are actually cheaper than a barebones platoon and one barebones vet squad (180 vs 190) for almost as many meatshields (30 vs 35).
What is your preferred HQ choice at this points level?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I got my hands on the next codex...
Vet squads would be 5-10 man squads
Grenadiers would be a doctrinal choice letting you take scions as troops
Scions would be slightly cheaper, regain access to scout and infiltrate, and their weapons would be 18" s3 ap3 assault 2
I would also steal future war cultist's ideas for scions.
Grenadiers should not ever just be "Scions as Troops". That's a dummy option.
Edit note: By "dummy option", I mean that it is something that disguises itself as an option but really isn't.
Grenadiers, as an option on Hardened Veterans, should give them access to Hellguns instead of their standard Lasguns. It gives you a more survivable, bit more "oomph" but without making it so that it's just "Scions become Troops".
Kanluwen wrote: Grenadiers should not ever just be "Scions as Troops". That's a dummy option.
Edit note:
By "dummy option", I mean that it is something that disguises itself as an option but really isn't.
Grenadiers, as an option on Hardened Veterans, should give them access to Hellguns instead of their standard Lasguns. It gives you a more survivable, bit more "oomph" but without making it so that it's just "Scions become Troops".
Either way would work and would effectively provide the same result. I get the feeling that you feel compelled to contradict everything I say, even when we are more or less saying the same thing.
Kanluwen wrote: Grenadiers should not ever just be "Scions as Troops". That's a dummy option.
Edit note:
By "dummy option", I mean that it is something that disguises itself as an option but really isn't.
Grenadiers, as an option on Hardened Veterans, should give them access to Hellguns instead of their standard Lasguns. It gives you a more survivable, bit more "oomph" but without making it so that it's just "Scions become Troops".
Either way would work and would effectively provide the same result. I get the feeling that you feel compelled to contradict everything I say, even when we are more or less saying the same thing.
Strictly speaking, this comes to a fluff thing for me:
Scions are a specific unit. They're the Militarum Tempestus, an organization which is supposed to be set apart from the "main" Astra Militarum.
Grenadiers is the catch-all, fluff term for a regiment's Veterans outfitted with Carapace Armor and Hellguns. It's the term the Doctrines book used to allow Cadian players to run Kasrkin(which actually had a unit entry in C: Eye of Terror), Terrax players to run Stormtrooper Cadets, etc. It let you take 0-3 Stormtrooper Squads as Troops but they couldn't Deep Strike or Infiltrate, and they could not take Warrior Weapons.
It was also the term that was used by FW when they were going to do some special Stormtrooper models for the Elysians back with the "Raid on Kastorel-Novem" book.
That's why I refer to it as a "dummy" option. Look at all the artwork we've gotten for Cadians relatively recently. Notice that there are several Guardsmen outfitted in carapace armor with backpack mounted cabling linked to a lasgun. They're also specifically given visors or weirder shaped helmets compared to the 'standard' Guardsmen.
Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right? And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right? And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.
CplPunishment wrote: Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right?
You mean this solution?
Grenadiers would be a doctrinal choice letting you take scions as troops Scions would be slightly cheaper, regain access to scout and infiltrate, and their weapons would be 18" s3 ap3 assault 2 I would also steal future war cultist's ideas for scions.
No. They are not the same statements.
Your argument is that Scions get cheaper, regain access to Scout and Infiltrate(they never had Scout, they had Deep Strike) and have an ability to become Troops.
And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right?
Read the book. They've actually changed the fluff quite a bit. It used to be a single "Stormtrooper Regiment" that existed, with Stormtroopers parceled out as necessary. That is no longer the case. There are now multiple Scion Regiments, such as the Kappic Eagles(the powder blue ones in all the art).
Complain all you want about the name, but the fluff has changed. It is not simply "NuStorm Troopers".
And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.
Codex: Imperial Guard wrote:The regiment comes from a world where the best Imperial Guard recruits are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers.
The regiment may include 0-3 Storm Trooper squads as Troops. These Storm Troopers may not Deep Strike or Infiltrate
I'm fairly certain that there were White Dwarf articles at the time explaining why certain Doctrines were chosen, but I no longer have those WDs so can't confirm. They could also have been on the Black Gobbo webzine.
If you think I'm being argumentative for the sake of it, fine. Whatever. You just want the "Deathwing" approach("X unlocks Y as a Troops choice"), whereas I want the approach which should have flipping happened as soon as "Grenadiers"(Carapace Armor) became an option for Hardened Veteran Squads.
My approach still leaves a niche for the Scions. Yours just encourages people to take that Doctrine for Objective Secured Scions.
I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. And if hotshots became assault 3, that would make shotguns completely useless, which would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. Especially if hotshots became assault 3.
What makes Scions useful right now?
Deep Strike, Hotshot Volley Guns, and the fact that they come with their own Command Squads.
Notice how nothing I said added Deep Strike, Volley Guns, or a Hardened Veteran Command Squad?
Because that would make shotguns completely useless, and that would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.
Shotguns are terrible and always have been. They're only there for "rule of cool". Outside of the Deathwatch Shotguns, which only were really seeing use because of the "Swap Boltgun for Shotgun; swap Pistol for Boltgun" nonsense.
One terrible option is not a reason to restrict Hardened Veterans from getting kit that they always should have had. Grenadiers, as a concept, have been thoroughly wasted by people like Cruddace. We should have been getting Grenadier Bodyguards for Company Command Squads alongside of the whole Hellguns on Hardened Veterans thing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, IG should be able to out-MSU just about any other unit, where losing individual units is so inconsequential, you'd never want to blob them. That is why I say that IG core (Platoons, Chimeras, Russes) needs to be cheap, so you can afford to throw them away as part of "acceptable losses".
The problem then is the Kill Point meta, whereby your opponent can lose just about everything but still win because he killed more of your throw away units than the number of units that he deployed in the first place.
That's trivially easy to fix - just make bog standard IG Platoon Infantry Squads Insignificant (this unit does not provide Kill Points).
This allows IG to take boatloads of ObSec units that provide ZERO KPs when destroyed, allowing IG to play a proper MSU game without worrying about losing ordinary Guardsmen. IG can sacrifice huge numbers of IG Infantry Squads to achieve tactical Objectives.
Combined with my other proposed ability for IG to choose their casualties (keeping their weapons, and rolling command down), and the army would play pretty effectively. Sure, enemies can easily kill a lot of Guardsmen, but it mostly won't matter.
Recapping & consolidating
Spoiler:
"Undifferentiated Mass" - IG are immune to "closest first" and individual targeting. The IG player always chooses which models to remove in any unit. IG. Mind War against a Colonel results in a dead Guardsman, not a dead Colonel. Snipers targeting a Lascannon only ever get Guardsman or Loader.
"Insignificant" - Platoon Infantry Squads do not provide Kill Points when destroyed.
Doctrines - Equipment (Cameoline OR Carapace OR LP&CCW); Specialists (unlock Stormtroopers & Rough Riders), Abhumans (unlock Beastmen, Ogryns, Ratlings & Psykers), etc. YES, duh. 1st is FREE, 2nd is +5 pts/unit, 3rd is +10 pts/unit.
Unit Costs - Platoons, Chimeras & Russes drop. All squad costs drop by 10 pts per unit; Chimeras & Russes get cheaper, too - they are massively mass-produced, unlike the fancier Adeptus stuff.
Orders - replaces an Officer's (next) shooting action. Instead of shooting, Sergeants can make one other model in unit twin-linked, Veteran Sergeants make that weapon twin-linked & AP1.
Weapons Costs - Close Combat, Heavy & Special Weapons costs ALL drop by 5 pts each across the board; HB & flamer fit is "free".
Heavy Weapons - go back to being separate T3 models, for fewer statline profiles. Instead of shooting, each Loader makes one weapon twin-linked.
Leman Russes - cut costs, remove Gets Hot!, add Lumbering Bememoth; sponsons target separately, but at BS2.
CplPunishment wrote: Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right?
You mean this solution?
Grenadiers would be a doctrinal choice letting you take scions as troops
Scions would be slightly cheaper, regain access to scout and infiltrate, and their weapons would be 18" s3 ap3 assault 2
I would also steal future war cultist's ideas for scions.
No. They are not the same statements.
Your argument is that Scions get cheaper, regain access to Scout and Infiltrate(they never had Scout, they had Deep Strike) and have an ability to become Troops.
And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right?
Read the book. They've actually changed the fluff quite a bit. It used to be a single "Stormtrooper Regiment" that existed, with Stormtroopers parceled out as necessary. That is no longer the case. There are now multiple Scion Regiments, such as the Kappic Eagles(the powder blue ones in all the art).
Complain all you want about the name, but the fluff has changed. It is not simply "NuStorm Troopers".
And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.
Codex: Imperial Guard wrote:The regiment comes from a world where the best Imperial Guard recruits are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers.
The regiment may include 0-3 Storm Trooper squads as Troops. These Storm Troopers may not Deep Strike or Infiltrate
I'm fairly certain that there were White Dwarf articles at the time explaining why certain Doctrines were chosen, but I no longer have those WDs so can't confirm. They could also have been on the Black Gobbo webzine.
If you think I'm being argumentative for the sake of it, fine. Whatever. You just want the "Deathwing" approach("X unlocks Y as a Troops choice"), whereas I want the approach which should have flipping happened as soon as "Grenadiers"(Carapace Armor) became an option for Hardened Veteran Squads.
My approach still leaves a niche for the Scions. Yours just encourages people to take that Doctrine for Objective Secured Scions.
Check your 5th edition codex if you still have it. Storm Troopers had three special operations choices they could fill, one being the following: "Reconnaissance: The Reconnaissance mission grants the SCOUTS and move through cover special rules." So, yes they did once have access to scout. Do they need it to be useful? Not necessarily, but some commanders might appreciate having the tactical flexibility of choosing between Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout and Outflank (not to mention the mounted options).
Your argument is that Veterans become quasi-storm troopers, with all the typical gear plus Objective Secured for being troops, but without the variety of insertion methods. My way did leave the door open for Troop Scions to keep their variety of insertion methods, but that is not necessarily the way it would *have* to be (although I see no reason why soldiers who receive equivalent training to scions wouldn't be trained in their insertion methods). Have you checked the statlines of vets and scions recently? They're basically exactly the same Ever since 5th they have been slowly merging into a redundancy, and you want to further that by giving Veterans Hotshots? If you want Elite soldiers with Objective secured, carapace and hotshots just take the scions with the proposed grenadiers doctrine. If you don't want to deepstrike/infiltrate/scout/outflank with them, don't. Just set them up normally. Is that really so much different from what you want?
I don't have the new Militarum Tempestus book, don't know anybody who does, don't plan on buying it (the rules for using them are in Codex:AM, as is a little bit of fluff, so why would I?) and the local store has a policy against reading the codex before buying it. But the point is that I don't need to read it to know that Scions are nothing but a re-tooling of Storm Troopers. They fill the same niche, they use the same wargear, and they are trained by the same Schola Progenium to fill the elite "Shock Assault role" (that is a direct Quote from the 5th and 6th edition codexes, which formally refer to them differently as "Storm Troopers" or "Tempestus Scions" yet describe them the same!). Every edition from at least 3rd until now has described the "rancour" regular guardsmen feel towards a specific Unit Entry, which was once called "Storm Troopers" and is now called "Tempestus Scions". Both Storm Troopers and Scions are Nicknamed "Glory Boys" and "Big Toy Soldiers". Tempestus is obviously taken from the root word "tempest" which literally means storm. They changed the name and fleshed out the fluff so that they could protect their Intellectual Property better. That is all. They are basically the same thing. And that whole "one regiment" thing was stupid and was a good (but ultimately unnecessary and irrelevant) change. According to the 4th ed codex, Grenadiers "[Come] from a world where the best recruits [note: not veterans] are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers." Grenadiers = Storm Troopers = Tempestus Scions. That doesn't mean Grenadiers *can't* be veterans (indeed many are); your belief that Grenadiers = Veterans comes from the 5th and 6th edition doctrine available for veterans, which makes it a valid interpretation. But it doesn't make mine invalid.
Actually, if you think about it, only in certain regiments would veterans Guardsmen take on the "shock assault role" typically assigned to storm troopers. Why? because Veterans exist in the perilous universe of Warhammer 40k for one reason and one reason only: they learned how to survive thanks to a keen sense of self-preservation that didn't cross the line into full-out desertion (and subsequent execution). Veterans have access to powerful close-range weaponry as well as powerful long range weaponry and traditionally have had the ability to infiltrate into an advantageous firing position. It wasn't until carapace mech-vets took center-stage that their previous role became shuffled into obscurity. I'm not saying there is only one way to use vets. I'm saying there is room for them to fill multiple niches, coming close even to scions without actually becoming scions with a different name.
Scions on the other hand, exist in their role because they are highly trained, brainwashed, well-equipped, nobles. You do not have to endure multiple campaigns to become a Scion, you just need the right bloodline and the right training. This is why I believe Scions/Storm Troopers should go back to being base Ld8. They also do not have the option to carry heavy weapons, which makes sense given their "shock assault role". Your proposed squad could feasibly take hotshots with a mortar team, which makes no sense. I don't get why anyone would do that, but do you see my point? Carapace Vets are durable close to long range fire support units. They take the Carapace because it is smart and helps them keep being veterans. Scions are shock assault troops that take carapace thinking it will save them when they get up-close-and-personal with Terrorgasm the Unholy. Silly Scions. They'll find out, while the Vets sit back and record the action.
The solution to the problem of Veteran/Scion battlefield overlap is eluding me at present. I will reflect on this more however. That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a doctrine system that effectively gives you the option of taking Tempestus Scions as troops. Whether it happens my way or your way, it will essentially be more or less the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Future War Cultist wrote: I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. And if hotshots became assault 3, that would make shotguns completely useless, which would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.
Agreed on hotshots.
I have two solutions for shotguns to give them more of a purpose:
0pts per model, Range: 12" S3 AP6 Assault 2, Shred
-or-
1pt per model, Range 12" S4 AP6 Assault 2, Shred.
Alternatively, there could be a range-based strength difference as some have mentioned above:
1pt per model,
0-6" S5 AP5, Assault 1 (representing high power but narrow-spread at this range), Shred
6-12" S4 AP6, Assault 2, Shred
12-16" S3 AP-, Assault 2, Shred
- Scout.
- +1 Leadership (Leadership 9 Tempestors and Leadership 10 Primes?)
- the option for a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong
- the option for the squad leaders to take melta bombs.
- assault 3 hot-shot lasguns.
- a possible points decrease for them and the Taurox
There, we fixed Scions. Now we have an affordable elite unit with nasty close range firepower and the ability to deploy pretty much any way they want to. I mean, I'd take them!
I'm gonna try Ogyrns next!
I still maintain that the ordinary ogyrns should become more shooty based.
- Scout.
- +1 Leadership (Leadership 9 Tempestors and Leadership 10 Primes?)
- the option for a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong
- the option for the squad leaders to take melta bombs.
- assault 3 hot-shot lasguns.
- a possible points decrease for them and the Taurox
There, we fixed Scions. Now we have an affordable elite unit with nasty close range firepower and the ability to deploy pretty much any way they want to. I mean, I'd take them!
I'm gonna try Ogyrns next!
I still maintain that the ordinary ogyrns should become more shooty based.
I was just thinking they needed a LD boost. They are the brainwashed shock troops of the IoM after all
I mostly agree with everything you say about scions, except assault 3 lasguns (assault 4 after FRFSRF) I think that is too much. Instead, the gun should be 18", assault 2 and tempestors should be able to issue one of three orders to their own squad, one of which would be FRFSRF. I think this would give them a good fire output without being brokenly good.
So this is like the 5th thread that has almost reached 30 pages filled with great discussion & suggestions to fix the IG. What are the chances that GW is actually paying attention & will get it right this time?
You're absolutely right. 4 shots with hot-shots would be too much. But, I was also thinking that with a restructuring of orders and how units act, FRFSRF would become obsolete and would be ditched. For example, I proposed an increase in BS for infantry squads as they get larger, as a sort of built in FRFSRF. By giving hot shots 3 shots, they too will also have a sort of built in FRFSRF, leaving them to be ordered to FOMT or BID instead.
And I think FNP and a roll back to Bulky for Ogyrns is perfect. 6 in a chimera or Valkyrie is OK in my books. And how about a rule called 'Yes Boss Sir!', which lets them use an Officers or Commissars LD for pinning and morale checks. I was thinking of fearless but that's a step too far.
And I am adamant that ordinary Ogyrns need to remade as a shooty unit. If you just double the range of ripper guns, remaking them as machine guns, that would do it.
EDIT:
Points decreases!
55pts for a unit of scions, with further scions costing +10pts each. A unit of ten with 3 plasmas and a vox would be 155pts.
70pts for a Taurox Prime (ordinary ones are now 35) with all options being simple free swaps?
100pts for a unit of three Ogyrns, with further Ogyrns costing 30pts each.
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.
UrsoerTheSquid wrote: For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.
Why not give them shred too?
Shred doesn't make a ton of sense on shotguns; buckshot would actually be less likely to wound anything with an armor save than a solid round. However turning shotguns into "Veteran Shotguns" and giving them some interesting special ammo to choose from (like Deathwatch Shotguns but not necessarily the same ammo) might be a good way to give them some more options, such as Shred. That might be a little too fun and interesting for GW to feel comfortable giving it to Guard instead of Space marines though.
UrsoerTheSquid wrote: For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.
Why not give them shred too?
Shred doesn't make a ton of sense on shotguns; buckshot would actually be less likely to wound anything with an armor save than a solid round. However turning shotguns into "Veteran Shotguns" and giving them some interesting special ammo to choose from (like Deathwatch Shotguns but not necessarily the same ammo) might be a good way to give them some more options, such as Shred. That might be a little too fun and interesting for GW to feel comfortable giving it to Guard instead of Space marines though.
Not bad ideas, really. As you said, it's too bad GW won't listen.
And buckshot having little effect on armored targets would be a rationale for shotguns being AP-. Shred makes perfect sense because the reroll to wound represents the increased likelihood of being hit in a vulnerable place by the spread of buckshot.
CplPunishment wrote: Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.
I'd be all over that. That's exactly what we need. I'd have several to carry a whole company of infantry around.
Also, Vet Squads. I don't really like how fixed the size of the squad is. What if it was 5-30? That would effect doctrines though.
CplPunishment wrote: Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?
The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.
In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,
Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]
By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.
CplPunishment wrote: Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?
The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.
In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,
Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]
By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.
Okay now we're being nitpicky ;-)
If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time. I'd have to double check that, but it sounds like a moot point.
Personally, I would load up a gorgon with a combined squad of 40 guardsmen plus at least one commissar and at least one priest.
With a Crassus, I would load a full squad of ogryns plus a couple ICs.
CplPunishment wrote: Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?
The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.
In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,
Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]
By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.
Okay now we're being nitpicky ;-)
If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time. I'd have to double check that, but it sounds like a moot point.
Personally, I would load up a gorgon with a combined squad of 40 guardsmen plus at least one commissar and at least one priest.
With a Crassus, I would load a full squad of ogryns plus a couple ICs.
It's either part of the Super-Heavy Transport rules or of the Stormlord itself, but you can stuff in as many units as you like as long as you do not go over the transport capacity of 40. And it's got 20 firing points, so you can stuff a ton of HWTs inside.
CplPunishment wrote: Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.
Assuming capacity for 50, I'd probably embark my entire normal allotment of infantry that aren't normally mechanized: a 40 man blob, attached Priest (and likely 1-2 Primaris Psykers if I can live with not using psychic prior to disembarking/getting wrecked), and a lascannon HWS.
What are the profiles of the Gorgon and Crassus? I don't tend to look into FW that much, but it does sound like it could form the core of pretty interesting lists, so I am tempted.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.
In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,
By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.
If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time.
It's either part of the Super-Heavy Transport rules or of the Stormlord itself, but you can stuff in as many units as you like as long as you do not go over the transport capacity of 40.
And it's got 20 firing points, so you can stuff a ton of HWTs inside.
Yeah, Superheavies can indeed carry multiple units, tho you can't split units across multiple Transports.
And yeah, as a mobile bunker, the Stormlord is kinda nuts for the amount of firing points it gives.
What does the future hold for IG? Well we just got our answer. Here is what GW thinks of the Imperial Guard:
You read that correctly. We are nothing more than militia. Forget Macharius's crusade which captured 1000 worlds in 7 years. Forget the fact that the imperium wouldn't exist without the Imperial Guard. Forget the fact that the Imperium exists to protect HUMANITY. Are space marines human? No. Is Guilliman human? No. They exist to protect HUMANITY. You know that thing that the Imperial Guard is? F them through right? What we need is MORE MARINES!!!
GW you want to know why space marines are your best selling army? BECAUSE 99% OF YOUR RELEASES ARE SPACE MARINES...
I seriously just need to walk away from this hobby for a few years. This sh*t isn't healthy.
While the doomsaying is currently strong.. I'm just more curious if these new Marines will just be one codex or if this is just going to be some fluff update for every other Space Marine codex.
morgoth wrote: The IG was never anything more than Militia, I don't know why you think otherwise.
Its just the way he answered the question.
I read this as:
Q: So what are your plans for the future of the imperial guard?
A: Same as always. Meat grinder/just ignoring them.
Then goes on to say how we are getting more space marines because they sell well. Perhaps space marines sell well because they are the only faction that ever get released? Its not enough that Forgeworld has become solely focused on 30k/space marines? Its not enough that centurions are basically space marines inside space marines? Its not enough that despite IG outnumbering space marines in the setting a billion to 1, IG only has 4 heroes left in the codex while space marines have dozens? No. We need MORE SPACE MARINES. Remember that time you released Cannoness Veridyan GW and you were utterly shocked at how well she sold and had to change her status from limited edition to a permanent model?
Maybe its because people are WAITING for something to be released BESIDES SPACE MARINES.
morgoth wrote: The IG was never anything more than Militia, I don't know why you think otherwise.
Its just the way he answered the question.
I read this as:
Q: So what are your plans for the future of the imperial guard?
A: Same as always. Meat grinder/just ignoring them.
Then goes on to say how we are getting more space marines because they sell well. Perhaps space marines sell well because they are the only faction that ever get released? Its not enough that Forgeworld has become solely focused on 30k/space marines? Its not enough that centurions are basically space marines inside space marines? Its not enough that despite IG outnumbering space marines in the setting a billion to 1, IG only has 4 heroes left in the codex while space marines have dozens? No. We need MORE SPACE MARINES. Remember that time you released Cannoness Veridyan GW and you were utterly shocked at how well she sold and had to change her status from limited edition to a permanent model?
Maybe its because people are WAITING for something to be released BESIDES SPACE MARINES.
I don't know, for an army not many people seem to play, the IG isn't half bad - you have a fuckton of FW stuff too.
I mean, think for a second, about the poor Dark Eldar.
I'm with Commissar Benny on this one. If the IG struggle to sell it's only because we're horribly neglected in our kits. I don't mean to whine but we deserve better than this.
morgoth wrote: I don't know, for an army not many people seem to play, the IG isn't half bad - you have a fuckton of FW stuff too.
I mean, think for a second, about the poor Dark Eldar.
Absolutely. What GW has done to the Dark Eldar is appalling. Is it really any surprise they and sisters don't sell well when they essentially get no support from GW? GW's rationale towards sales is a self fulfilling prophecy.
Refuse to update/release models for armies a,b,c,d because they don't sell well.
Maybe they aren't selling well because you aren't updating them and releasing models for those armies?
Martel732 wrote: As a BA player, I'm saying that they focus way too much on marines.
FYI, common sense is a myth. That's why you are surprised by GW's actions. Their logic is completely different than yours. There is no common sense.
As the old saying goes, "Common sense is not common."
They're milking their cash cows because so many new/young gamers come in and see super humans winning battles across the galaxy against the evil aliens. I'd love to see more IG stuff. I started collecting IG models to create a combined CSM/renegades force and thought "I could easily build my own IG army with these models" but have decided to stick with R&H because I think they pack more punch for their cost.
I would love new regiments other than Cadians! Bring back Tallarn, Valhallan, Mordian. Something other than Spaceballs Cadia and Rambo Catachans.
morgoth wrote: The IG was never anything more than Militia, I don't know why you think otherwise.
Its just the way he answered the question.
I read this as:
Q: So what are your plans for the future of the imperial guard?
A: Same as always. Meat grinder/just ignoring them.
Then goes on to say how we are getting more space marines because they sell well. Perhaps space marines sell well because they are the only faction that ever get released? Its not enough that Forgeworld has become solely focused on 30k/space marines? Its not enough that centurions are basically space marines inside space marines? Its not enough that despite IG outnumbering space marines in the setting a billion to 1, IG only has 4 heroes left in the codex while space marines have dozens? No. We need MORE SPACE MARINES. Remember that time you released Cannoness Veridyan GW and you were utterly shocked at how well she sold and had to change her status from limited edition to a permanent model?
Maybe its because people are WAITING for something to be released BESIDES SPACE MARINES.
Wut?!
Ah well, back to watching mindless children drooling over the next Murene release whilst the rest of the lines wither away and the game slowly stagnates and chokes itself to death.
Yeap... now the xenos are probably next on the withering blocks as well. If we don't sell bazillions in the updates then support will dry up so they can launch Chaos NU-Marines. I'm just kind of shocked really. My IG friend will likely never buy anything again after that news. :(
He is a busy college student, but he was still trying to have hope for an IG update or something. He was almost done the IG stuff eh did have and was looking to expand his army or get a model or two to paint.
I honestly believe that the Imperial Guard will become the new Sisters of Battle. Yes, you 'can' technically still play them but they're never going to receive an update beyond a ebook (if we're lucky) and zero new models.
First they 'squat' the homeworld of the poster boys of the Imperial Guard. Then they stick Creed as a prisoner of Trollzyn but not kill him 'just in case'. Not a single Imperial Guard model in Fall of CADIA. The Triumvirate of the Imperium doesn't feature Imperial Guard. The next two books don't even mention the Imperial Guard.
I'd like to think I'm just being cynical, but after Age of Sigmar anything is possible.
Ah well, back to watching mindless children drooling over the next Murene release whilst the rest of the lines wither away and the game slowly stagnates and chokes itself to death.
Unfortunately, it won't choke itself to death. Space Marines just sell THAT well. There's just far, far too many Space Marine players that so long as they keep pumping out new variants of power armour they're going to be lapped up. We're going to be seeing even more (loyalist) Space Marine kits all the while people scream "golden age! golden age! gw has returned!11!" even whilst Xenos/Chaos/non-SM players awkwardly eye each other before leaving for other games. As the numbers of non-SM kits drop, GW will shrug their shoulders and only continue to produce Space Marines. Eventually they'll have achieved their wettest of dreams: 30k in the 40k setting, where in the Grimdarkness of the 42nd Millennium there are only Space Marines.
How many non-Sigmarine armies do you see in AoS? They managed to chase away just about every single WHFB player, but over time replaced them with 40k kids by shoving 'LOOK KIDS, BOLTER CROSSBOWS!' in their faces and creating a new generation of "lol fantasy was a dead game. gw are geniuses! if it wasnt selling why are they making so many new stormcast models?!"
Now you know why I hate Space Marine's. The sole exception is the DW because of the RPG, and the blood ravens because memes.
They are a cool concept, but he fanbase is simply... ugh. It's so self destructive to the greater game.
I feel dirty for buying my Deathwatch models as well. Granted I only want a very small kill squad. I feel DW are what space marines should be. Chapters should be training worlds or something, and then every space marine chapter or fighting force is composed of mixed units of space marines taught to work together. They would just be the regular marines in terms of effectiveness and rules, but the whole background would be different. They only gain their legendary fighting prowess when they all work together to share knowledge from the disparate training worlds ect.
Too much of a good thing these days. Even the space marine players in real life are crazy. I ask them if they would be okay if only marines got releases and if that meant all the other factions didn't they would be fine with it. Like 67% of them say this is fine. Which is insane. Why do they want to have fun at other peoples expense?
Arbitrator wrote: I think that Imperial Guard will become the new Sisters of Battle. Yes, you 'can' technically still play them but they're never going to receive an update beyond a ebook (if we're lucky) and zero new models.
First they 'squat' the homeworld of the poster boys of the Imperial Guard.
Then they stick Creed as a prisoner of Trollzyn but not kill him 'just in case'.
Not a single Imperial Guard model in Fall of CADIA.
The Triumvirate of the Imperium doesn't feature Imperial Guard.
The next took books don't even mention the Imperial Guard.
I'd like to think I'm just being cynical, but after Age of Sigmar anything is possible.
This is what makes my blood boil. They literally just DESTROYED the homeworld of the iconic IG regiment. Do you really think IG players are going to be compelled to buy a regiment that was turned into Tanith first & only? NO! This will cause a decline in sales. GW will interpret this as "Well I guess people just aren't interested in IG anymore." Cut off support for the line.
NO ARSEHOLES, IG sales are in decline because you have systematically destroyed every regiment that exists in the setting! We only have like 4 heroes left in our entire codex. 4! Space marines have dozens, hell maybe even over a hundred between all chapters...
My regiment hasn't been updated in 15-17 f*cking years. ALMOST 2 DECADES! You cannot expect new players to invest in regiments that cannot be purchased from retail stores, have to be ordered online, are out of production, are not ever highlighted in White Dwarf or 40k events.
If IG does not get a MASSIVE release this year, its over folks. We are getting the SOB treatment. It seems irrational/impossible but we aren't dealing with a rational company here.
For everyone complaining about Cadia falling, where the hell were you during the original 13th Black Crusade? Same thing happened then. The lore book they published even ended with a plaque of a speech that Creed made encouraging all the surviving Cadians to recruit.
To recruit and to train. Why? Because the Cadian Shock weren't dead. They've settled all over the galaxy, their descendants having founded new homes and continuing their martial traditions.
This isn't new fluff. This is, as mentioned, since the end of the original 13th Black Crusade event. We've even gotten bits of that fluff done now.
Wow, a lot of people are seeing IG as the next SOB. I assumed that the lack of Guard in the Fall of Cadia was more due to GW being lazy and incompetent with their rules writing than a beginning of the end for the army.
Tzeentch Arcanites have, since their release, been exceedingly popular. Sylvaneth--I really don't need to say more than the fact for several weeks it was virtually impossible to get their basic infantry(the Tree-Revenant/Spite-Revenant kit). Fyreslayers are hit or miss depending on your locality. Flesh Eater Courts Beastclaw Raiders(Ogres) Greenskins of all flavors. Seraphon Stormcast and Khorne Bloodbound tend to be the "jumping off point" for new players(shocking! the two armies in the starter sets are things people use for starting?!). Khorne Bloodbound seems to be the one that people actually stick with though, as Stormcast can be visually exhausting to paint.
That's just off the top of my head, based off of my experience locally. When an army gets an actual dedicated book or a "big deal" set, there's a correlating spike of interest and usage.
They managed to chase away just about every single WHFB player, but over time replaced them with 40k kids by shoving 'LOOK KIDS, BOLTER CROSSBOWS!' in their faces and creating a new generation of "lol fantasy was a dead game. gw are geniuses! if it wasnt selling why are they making so many new stormcast models?!"
Oh please. Most of the WHFB players who got "chased away" didn't really play. I know the most vocal opponents of AoS locally also were vocal supporters of Mantic's fantasy game...yet as far as I've been told locally, that's dead in the water. You would see them maybe once in awhile playing WHFB, mostly with whatever new flavor of tournament list had showed up online and then quitting again after it got stomped by something unexpected.
As for your last bit? Most of the people who have two functioning brain cells to rub together know that Stormcast have gotten so many models because they're a brand new faction, with nothing that existed beforehand.
Tzeentch Arcanites have, since their release, been exceedingly popular. Sylvaneth--I really don't need to say more than the fact for several weeks it was virtually impossible to get their basic infantry(the Tree-Revenant/Spite-Revenant kit). Fyreslayers are hit or miss depending on your locality. Flesh Eater Courts Beastclaw Raiders(Ogres) Greenskins of all flavors. Seraphon Stormcast and Khorne Bloodbound tend to be the "jumping off point" for new players(shocking! the two armies in the starter sets are things people use for starting?!). Khorne Bloodbound seems to be the one that people actually stick with though, as Stormcast can be visually exhausting to paint.
That's just off the top of my head, based off of my experience locally. When an army gets an actual dedicated book or a "big deal" set, there's a correlating spike of interest and usage.
They managed to chase away just about every single WHFB player, but over time replaced them with 40k kids by shoving 'LOOK KIDS, BOLTER CROSSBOWS!' in their faces and creating a new generation of "lol fantasy was a dead game. gw are geniuses! if it wasnt selling why are they making so many new stormcast models?!"
Oh please. Most of the WHFB players who got "chased away" didn't really play. I know the most vocal opponents of AoS locally also were vocal supporters of Mantic's fantasy game...yet as far as I've been told locally, that's dead in the water. You would see them maybe once in awhile playing WHFB, mostly with whatever new flavor of tournament list had showed up online and then quitting again after it got stomped by something unexpected.
As for your last bit? Most of the people who have two functioning brain cells to rub together know that Stormcast have gotten so many models because they're a brand new faction, with nothing that existed beforehand.
Hey now, you can't bring logic and facts into this! But seriously, WHFB was hemorrhaging hard, AoS is a fresh new system now that the kinks are (mostly) ironed out. One can only hope the same rules system or something similar comes to 40k soon.
Commissar Benny wrote: What does the future hold for IG? Well we just got our answer. Here is what GW thinks of the Imperial Guard:
You read that correctly. We are nothing more than militia. Forget Macharius's crusade which captured 1000 worlds in 7 years. Forget the fact that the imperium wouldn't exist without the Imperial Guard. Forget the fact that the Imperium exists to protect HUMANITY. Are space marines human? No. Is Guilliman human? No. They exist to protect HUMANITY. You know that thing that the Imperial Guard is? F them through right? What we need is MORE MARINES!!!
GW you want to know why space marines are your best selling army? BECAUSE 99% OF YOUR RELEASES ARE SPACE MARINES...
I seriously just need to walk away from this hobby for a few years. This sh*t isn't healthy.
Question:
Where did this conversation come from and how do we know they are GW employees with any kind of game designing clout?
Commissar Benny wrote: Maybe its because people are WAITING for something to be released BESIDES SPACE MARINES.
From your lips... Anyhow, I completely agree that GW needs to release more, better Eldar (and Tau) stuff! More stuff like the Wraithknight, for example. Good model.
Commissar Benny wrote: If IG does not get a MASSIVE release this year, its over folks. We are getting the SOB treatment. It seems irrational/impossible but we aren't dealing with a rational company here.
LOL, riiight.
IG don't need a massive release. They just need a new Codex, which this thread is already wishlisting like crazy.
Aside from the overemphasis on "fixing" units (i.e. RRs, Ogryns, Storms) that don't matter and nobody should really be taking.
But it's not like GW reads the ranting here. It's not like this is a Space Marines / Eldar / Tau thread.
Arbitrator wrote: I think that Imperial Guard will become the new Sisters of Battle. Yes, you 'can' technically still play them but they're never going to receive an update beyond a ebook (if we're lucky) and zero new models.
First they 'squat' the homeworld of the poster boys of the Imperial Guard.
Then they stick Creed as a prisoner of Trollzyn but not kill him 'just in case'.
Not a single Imperial Guard model in Fall of CADIA.
The Triumvirate of the Imperium doesn't feature Imperial Guard.
The next took books don't even mention the Imperial Guard.
I'd like to think I'm just being cynical, but after Age of Sigmar anything is possible.
This is what makes my blood boil. They literally just DESTROYED the homeworld of the iconic IG regiment. Do you really think IG players are going to be compelled to buy a regiment that was turned into Tanith first & only? NO! This will cause a decline in sales. GW will interpret this as "Well I guess people just aren't interested in IG anymore." Cut off support for the line.
NO ARSEHOLES, IG sales are in decline because you have systematically destroyed every regiment that exists in the setting! We only have like 4 heroes left in our entire codex. 4! Space marines have dozens, hell maybe even over a hundred between all chapters...
My regiment hasn't been updated in 15-17 f*cking years. ALMOST 2 DECADES! You cannot expect new players to invest in regiments that cannot be purchased from retail stores, have to be ordered online, are out of production, are not ever highlighted in White Dwarf or 40k events.
If IG does not get a MASSIVE release this year, its over folks. We are getting the SOB treatment. It seems irrational/impossible but we aren't dealing with a rational company here.
Have an exalt. As an IG player I frequently get stick at my club for proxying, but I really cannot see any real reason to purchase yet more infantry as well as overpriced vehicles when they A) perform so underwhelmingly and B) my entire army is basically being shafted from 40K.
master of ordinance wrote: I really cannot see any real reason to purchase yet more infantry as well as overpriced vehicles
I think most IG players are at/near that point. Recall that GW respun Made to Order IG metal not that long ago, so everybody should be flush with IG infantry. And any longer-term IG player should already have enough vehicles. Some of us, far more than necessary.
OTOH, Knights are a great choice as Allies, and IKR made them fairly affordable. I actually added one to my collection, and he was not especially overpriced.
master of ordinance wrote: I really cannot see any real reason to purchase yet more infantry as well as overpriced vehicles
I think most IG players are at/near that point. Recall that GW respun Made to Order IG metal not that long ago, so everybody should be flush with IG infantry. And any longer-term IG player should already have enough vehicles. Some of us, far more than necessary.
OTOH, Knights are a great choice as Allies, and IKR made them fairly affordable. I actually added one to my collection, and he was not especially overpriced.
I have 50 Veterans, two Chimeras and a pair of Sentinels supporting a Stormsword, with a Company Command Squad, three Rapiers and some other bits (Rough Riders, Ogryns, etc). At least that is my GW official model count. I tend to proxy when I can these days. Ironically it is only now as I finally have a means to really start building my army up that I have just about given up on ever taking it anywhere, given the heinous pricing of the models with the laughably bad codex.
Conversations with 75hastings69 & Lady Atia etc. They are essentially prophets within our community. They know whats going on behind the scenes. If something was coming down the line for guard they would know. Their prediction accuracy can be found here:
JohnHwangDD wrote: Aside from the overemphasis on "fixing" units (i.e. RRs, Ogryns, Storms) that don't matter and nobody should really be taking.
Why shouldn't anyone be taking them?
They're not really IG per se - they're adjuncts / auxiliaries.
They are the freshly ground pepper on your salad, and I'm saying people should focus on the salad, not the pepper. If those auxliiaries become the focus of the army, that's probably not the sort of army we should be concentrating on when we have much more important things to focus on.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I think most IG players are at/near that point. Recall that GW respun Made to Order IG metal not that long ago, so everybody should be flush with IG infantry. And any longer-term IG player should already have enough vehicles. Some of us, far more than necessary.
OTOH, Knights are a great choice as Allies, and IKR made them fairly affordable. I actually added one to my collection, and he was not especially overpriced.
I have 50 Veterans, two Chimeras and a pair of Sentinels supporting a Stormsword, with a Company Command Squad, three Rapiers and some other bits (Rough Riders, Ogryns, etc). At least that is my GW official model count. I tend to proxy when I can these days. Ironically it is only now as I finally have a means to really start building my army up that I have just about given up on ever taking it anywhere, given the heinous pricing of the models with the laughably bad codex.
That's a nice little army. Right now, I kinda wish I had stopped at that point. That would have saved me quite a fair bit of coin.
I stopped because of lack of funds and then failed to start again because of a lack of faith in GW.
Proxying will do for me for now, until GW book their ideas up (or just squat/Sisters us entirely in which case I have lost nothing)
JohnHwangDD wrote: They're not really IG per se - they're adjuncts / auxiliaries.
They are the freshly ground pepper on your salad, and I'm saying people should focus on the salad, not the pepper. If those auxliiaries become the focus of the army, that's probably not the sort of army we should be concentrating on when we have much more important things to focus on.
I've never touched a salad in my life.
I know what you mean, but these units are still a part of the IG. They wouldn't be in the codex otherwise. Yes, the main focus should be on the regular human infantry and the tanks but these units deserve recognition too. The only reason I don't take Ogyrns and/or Ratlings is because they're not currently effective for their cost. I am dead set against removing this units or reducing their roles.
Auxiliaries only need a few sensible, obvious buffs to become somewhat (or dare I say very?) useful. Then it's back to the drawing board for the rest of the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But we've been through Auxiliaries. No sense dredging that discussion back up.
I said before that I'd have a system were infantry squads get +1 BS for each block of 10 models above 20 they have (+1 for 20+, +2 for 30+ and +3 for 40+). Well, thinking it over...what if it was +1 WS too? All this will do is help them hit their targets in cc whilst slightly reducing their opponents hits on them. It won't make them into horrible monsters in cc. Although to be honest, I'd prefer an AOS style system were they increase their to hit rolls without decreasing their opponents in turn. What I'm trying to do is create a system were small infantry squads are weak and useless in small numbers but when they get together and coordinate their actions they're a force to be reckoned with. This whole idea works under the assumption that FRFSRF is declared redundant. It's my replacement for it.
Speaking of orders. If they are made automatic, voxes should go to extending range right?
I said before that I'd have a system were infantry squads get +1 BS for each block of 10 models above 20 they have (+1 for 20+, +2 for 30+ and +3 for 40+). Well, thinking it over...what if it was +1 WS too? All this will do is help them hit their targets in cc whilst slightly reducing their opponents hits on them. It won't make them into horrible monsters in cc. Although to be honest, I'd prefer an AOS style system were they increase their to hit rolls without decreasing their opponents in turn. What I'm trying to do is create a system were small infantry squads are weak and useless in small numbers but when they get together and coordinate their actions they're a force to be reckoned with. This whole idea works under the assumption that FRFSRF is declared redundant. It's my replacement for it.
Speaking of orders. If they are made automatic, voxes should go to extending range right?
If you want a buff for blobbing up that's fine (even if I personally think it's unnecessary), but I don't think buffing BS and WS makes sense. The basic game balance mechanic is this: cheap (and therefore plentiful) troops have low statlines, while expensive (and therefore less numerous) units have better statlines. You are buffing statlines as a reward for having a ton of cheap infantry. It is therefore unbalanced. FRFSRF is better anyway because you can dole out more potential wounds. Yes, there is the risk that a lot won't hit or wound, but what are you expecting from lasgunners?
One thing blob platoons would benefit from would be a transport big enough for them. Similar to the gorgon and crassus but different: it would be one kit for both variants and the gorgon-esque one would have a transport cap of 60.
Infantry need acces to doctrines back and orders to remain with some tweaks in my opinion. I don't know about auto passing them. At most I would remove the bonus/penalty for double 1s/double 6s. I would bring back Vet sergeants ant their squad would reroll orders. Vox Casters would allow you to transmit an order to any unit on the table outside of command range. Those within command range use the officer's LD to pass.
As above, I say that PIS don't give KPs, and IG can choose the wounds, so somebody always leads, somebody always grabs the weapon. I think that fixes Platoons.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As above, I say that PIS don't give KPs, and IG can choose the wounds, so somebody always leads, somebody always grabs the weapon. I think that fixes Platoons.
Disagree. If anything, killpoints should be awarded relative to a unit's points value.
As far as wound allocation, it sucks but it's consistent. The only races who dont suffer also don't have special/heavy weapons specialists and/or characters. If current wound allocation rules are inconvenient for guard, they must be more so for armies that dont have as many "expendables". If it needs yo be changed, it should happen universally IMO.
No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.
And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.
The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?
If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.
And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.
As does practically every other army. Space Marines, at the very least are all trained in the use of missile launchers and heavy bolter, and the Codex states that weapons are passed around through the squad.
Why are IG exempt?
The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules?
Isn't that just a slippery slope, I mean "It's not like Eldar are balanced, so why should Orks be?"
FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports...
I wasn't aware that a CAD of Black Templars got free Land Raiders. Unless there's something wrong...
But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?
Not, it's inconsistent. Why is a guardsman able to pick up the fallen meltagun and yet the Space Marine or Scion can't do exactly the same?
If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.
Seems like that is guided a little by salt. I mean, it's along the same lines of saying "If we're making universal changes, let's remove models with the Monstrous Creature and Gargantuan Creature rules."
Removal isn't fit. Reworking it, and the morale system as a whole, would be better.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.
And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.
The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?
If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.
I agree with you that a platoon is harvest time for your opponent when it comes to kill points. I agree that something needs to change, I simply disagree with your approach because it takes the opposite extreme of making guard platoon's KP value worth infinitely less than their points value.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What needs to happen is a total re-imagining of the kp system
Future War Cultist wrote: Perhaps KPs could be dependent upon the FOC. Since a platoon is only one troops choice, it's only worth one 1KP. Same for DTs.
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
CplPunishment wrote: Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.
CplPunishment wrote: Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?
CplPunishment wrote: Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?
Yes...no...maybe?
Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.
CplPunishment wrote: Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?
Yes...no...maybe?
Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.
I could see that being abused. People will be on the honor system keeping track of which squad was part of which platoon. People will hide one squad out of sight. Opponents will kill 120+ guardsmen out of full strength platoons and be denied even a single killpoint because there is still one squad left. Sounds a bit broken. Broken in our favor, but still broken.
CplPunishment wrote: Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.
I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?
Yes...no...maybe?
Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.
Why not just the command squad? Officers are very valuable, but not grunts. You can kill guard squads for no KP, but if you kill the command squad you gain one KP. Or better, you gain 1 kill point for destroying the command squad and another if you destroy the entire platoon. This way, you have a certain form of balance.
epronovost wrote: Why not just the command squad? Officers are very valuable, but not grunts. You can kill guard squads for no KP, but if you kill the command squad you gain one KP. Or better, you gain 1 kill point for destroying the command squad and another if you destroy the entire platoon. This way, you have a certain form of balance.
That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.
I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.
That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.
I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.
If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.
Returning to the practice of Victory points being equal to the cost of the unit seems to be the easiest and most sensible thing to do to solve KP missions issue with cheap horde armies.
epronovost wrote: If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.
Good point. If orders were still limited to 12" this might be alright.
But going back to points would be the best solution.
What I think they should do with praetorians is make their lasguns much more powerful than the standard, but lower their rate of fire. This would kind of mimic how old breach load rifles worked, and justify block tactics.
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.
And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.
The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?
If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.
I agree with you that a platoon is harvest time for your opponent when it comes to kill points. I agree that something needs to change, I simply disagree with your approach because it takes the opposite extreme of making guard platoon's KP value worth infinitely less than their points value.
What needs to happen is a total re-imagining of the kp system
All I know is that IG need "free" rules that are at least as powerful as ATSKNF and Gladius. How, specifically it gets done, I don't particularly care. I suggest those fixes because they address the biggest problems with IG, turning what is currently a huge liablity into something that is functional.
If you want to require the opponent to destroy the ENTIRE Platoon to get their 1 KP, I'm OK with that.
That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.
I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.
If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.
Returning to the practice of Victory points being equal to the cost of the unit seems to be the easiest and most sensible thing to do to solve KP missions issue with cheap horde armies.
I agree with VP cost being unit cost. It's the only way that makes sense for horde and elite armies alike.
gmaleron wrote: Praetorians are awesome, there is a guy that plays at my FLGS that has a massive army of them!
I don't like them, but I find it great that you do. To bad you cant buy them from their legacy line like for the Mordian, Tallarns and cie. Personnaly I am a Vostroyan fan. I think they have the best bland of historical and gthich Science-Fiction look. They would make for excellent new Astra Millitarum flagship now that Cadia is destroyed.
If you put a bolt pistol to my head and made me vote on a new IG line, I'd say Vostroyians. epronovost is right. They're the perfect blend of historical and sci fi.
I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.
If I had to pick one aside from them, Death Korps, Armageddon Steel Legion or Praetorians/Mordians would be cool.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.
I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.
I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.
master of ordinance wrote: Wowowowow, wait a minute - are you expecting GW to do something creative here?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.
I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.
I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.
I'd still say animal cavalry could exist, but have it have the same profile as mech cavalry, so that, aside from models, Cadians would be able to take to the field on motorcycles of some kind and still be classed as cavalry.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.
I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.
I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.
I'd still say animal cavalry could exist, but have it have the same profile as mech cavalry, so that, aside from models, Cadians would be able to take to the field on motorcycles of some kind and still be classed as cavalry.
I'd be okay with that, if it weren't always going to be the fact that as soon as animal cavalry gets in there you get the dumb "THEY NEED TO BE A CC!" attitude that people have.
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
I'm totally biased in that I want my Scanner Network over yet more half-cocked attempts at CC units for Guard, but eh. There's a reason I forked out the cash for those things from FW back in the day. They were something new and interesting and different in that they weren't an "OMG it's gonna kill everything!" thing. It had an effect that basically only came into play for the start of the match and it felt fluffy for an army that is known for employing static defenses.
Kanluwen wrote: If they do anything "new" in plastic, I want a whole new range.
Not Death Korps. Not Cadians. Not Vostroyans. None of anything that exists now.
Something all new.
I could go for that as long as they don't have dopey-looking helmets like the 4th ed cadian sculpts.
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.
It represents the chaos and miscommunication that is all too common in war. Give vox casters unlimited order range but keep the ld roll to represent the very real chance that orders don't make it through. IG are not SM and shouldn't be expected to be on par with them. Even the mostelite humans pale next to the super human space marines. This is coming from a guy who loves the guard by the way. I just think we should stay a little grounded in our expectations for what IG should become.
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.
Like Commissar Lords having higher BS and WS than SM's, Harker being able to fire his heavy bolter on the move and Sisters of Silence being faster than Marines. The only one that would be near impossible to match is toughness (but Kriegsmen get something to make them T4, I think, been a while since I checked what their magical banners did)
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.
So we get some orders that last only one turn and others that almost singlehandedly break the codex?
Nah. Doctrina Imperatives feel like the right way to go. Have varying "levels" to an Order type(a shooting with Ignores Cover as a penultimate Order, shooting with -1 and -2 to cover as the lesser variations) and you can add some kind of downside to it as well.
Bobthehero wrote: The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.
Like Commissar Lords having higher BS and WS than SM's, Harker being able to fire his heavy bolter on the move and Sisters of Silence being faster than Marines. The only one that would be near impossible to match is toughness (but Kriegsmen get something to make them T4, I think, been a while since I checked what their magical banners did)
Well, short of the inability to feel fear, there's nothing put into a marine's physiology that makes them inherently more skillful fighters than a normal human. They're just afforded some of the best training in the Imperium, along with the longevity that their enhanced physiology allows for. But the Imperium is home to plenty of methods of rejuvination treatments. And a the training regimens of the marines, while notable, what with being warrior monks, aren't necessarily the absolute top of the line, nor do they match for actual combat experience. This isn't even mentioning the augmentations and training regimens available to more extreme sections of the Imperium, such as the Officio Assasinorium.
Point is, when it comes down to actual combat skill, there's nothing that makes a space marine inherently notable.
Well, short of the inability to feel fear, there's nothing put into a marine's physiology that makes them inherently more skillful fighters than a normal human.
It would depend upon how they are recruited. Some come into the chapter by dueling others to the fighting, living and fighting in death worlds, some come into the space marine chapter by actually fighting and dealing with Space Marines in one on one combat.
To put it bluntly to even get to the point of becoming a space marine can be a life or death challenge that's entirely reliant upon your skill. So many will come into the Space Marines with skill.
Not to say that Guardsman aren't the same given that they tend to be plucked from the best of the best of PDF forces, but it tends to be that Space Marines pluck from an even younger age that have to do some amazing things.
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.
It represents the chaos and miscommunication that is all too common in war. Give vox casters unlimited order range but keep the ld roll to represent the very real chance that orders don't make it through. IG are not SM and shouldn't be expected to be on par with them. Even the mostelite humans pale next to the super human space marines. This is coming from a guy who loves the guard by the way. I just think we should stay a little grounded in our expectations for what IG should become.
You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.
What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.
So we get some orders that last only one turn and others that almost singlehandedly break the codex?
Nah. Doctrina Imperatives feel like the right way to go. Have varying "levels" to an Order type(a shooting with Ignores Cover as a penultimate Order, shooting with -1 and -2 to cover as the lesser variations) and you can add some kind of downside to it as well.
I don't mean the current orders, that would be too much. I should've clarified. I mean certain regiments get certain smaller buffs and traits similar to SM chapter tactics, since not all IG regiments train to the same tactics.
Bobthehero wrote: The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.
True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.
Do assassins recieve any kind of augmentations?
Cybernetics, Chemical enhancements, Specialized Equipment you don't seem to find elsewhere specially made by the Adeptas Mechanicus, and are often trained by birth, and with the Culuxus case being a Blank as a requirement. Basically they stop kind of being human given the treatment they go through with the Vindicare being the most human by the end. (Not counting the specialized sneaky kill temples that specialize in poisons and the like)
Don't forget the Vanus temple! Death via bureaucracy!
But generally speaking, an Imperial Assassin is leagues above a space marine in terms of the quality of augments and training they receive. It's just that the Imperium could never hope to produce them on the scale of even space marines.
As far as the best truly human characters without any excessive augmentation, the most skilled in combat would probably be from either the death cults (well, at least in close quarters single-combat) or the Sisters of Battle. If it weren't for the fact that she's toeing the line of greater daemon of the Emperor, I'd nominate Celestine. But your average Canoness will likely display a level of skill beyond your average marine, with Celestines probably coming about in line with them on average.
Bobthehero wrote: The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.
True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.
Do assassins recieve any kind of augmentations?
Cybernetics, Chemical enhancements, Specialized Equipment you don't seem to find elsewhere specially made by the Adeptas Mechanicus, and are often trained by birth, and with the Culuxus case being a Blank as a requirement. Basically they stop kind of being human given the treatment they go through with the Vindicare being the most human by the end. (Not counting the specialized sneaky kill temples that specialize in poisons and the like)
Exactly. Like Space Marines, they start out as human and are made into something we could consider super-human. As such, they don't meet the criteria for highly trained but still human.
Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.
And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".
Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.
"Combat Doctrines" is what Space Marines have now. They're supposed to be an army defining trait that can tip the balance of a match with a benefit(the listed unit types) and a semi-drawback(the "Affected models" bits), but as it stands now? You have to be Ultramarines or fielding specific formations or the Gladius in order to use them.
They are once per game things, stackable(a Battle Demi-Company allows you to use Tactical once per game that is Ultramarines allowing you to do Tactical again--1+1=2 uses) that do the following:
Assault Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 in the Assault phase of this turn. Affected Assault Squads, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Centurion Assault Squads--including any Independent Character that have joined those squads, can instead reroll all failed To Hit rolls in the Assault phase of this turn.
Tactical Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn. Affected Tactical Squads and ICs in them can reroll all failed To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn.
Devastator Doctrine--Rerolls on 1s in Shooting. ICs and Devs can reroll all in Shooting.
You're thinking of Regimental Doctrines, which I've expressed my displeasure with elsewhere. Like Chapter Tactics, they're a cool idea but there's too much min/maxing that goes on now. I don't want to see yet more of it.
Pretty sure it's been covered already, but one thing I'd like to see is essentially an Open-topped Taurox or the IG equivalent of an Ork Trukk. Dirt cheap, flimsy, but great for just running around and causing chaos. Plus, throwing out lots of Flamer templates would be a blast.
Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.
And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".
Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.
"Combat Doctrines" is what Space Marines have now. They're supposed to be an army defining trait that can tip the balance of a match with a benefit(the listed unit types) and a semi-drawback(the "Affected models" bits), but as it stands now? You have to be Ultramarines or fielding specific formations or the Gladius in order to use them.
They are once per game things, stackable(a Battle Demi-Company allows you to use Tactical once per game that is Ultramarines allowing you to do Tactical again--1+1=2 uses) that do the following:
Assault Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 in the Assault phase of this turn. Affected Assault Squads, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Centurion Assault Squads--including any Independent Character that have joined those squads, can instead reroll all failed To Hit rolls in the Assault phase of this turn.
Tactical Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn. Affected Tactical Squads and ICs in them can reroll all failed To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn.
Devastator Doctrine--Rerolls on 1s in Shooting. ICs and Devs can reroll all in Shooting.
You're thinking of Regimental Doctrines, which I've expressed my displeasure with elsewhere. Like Chapter Tactics, they're a cool idea but there's too much min/maxing that goes on now. I don't want to see yet more of it.
Yes, I know the difference. I believe your post was a follow-on to someone else's comment re IG doctrines so I didn't think it was necessary to be pedantic. I'll try to do better next time.
But you still didn't answer my question. I get that you don't like them. Ok, I do. That was (IMO and experience with playing IG since 2nd ed) the best codex/main rule set combination IG have had. I've offered my own anecdotal evidence as to why I think so previously in the thread (also in response to one of your negative posts on IG doctrines). Not sure how IG would min/max effectively using such a codex but whatever. Course, right now, don't know if such a codex would truly be game effective (ie competitive) or not, depends on what the 40K rules morph into. But... it would satisfy a large number of IG players that want customizable regiments and many die-hard IG players have basically given up on being competitive without adding in some special uber-allies. Heh, one of our local players was bashing my 'pure' IG list, telling me I needed to add these Marines or this whatever and my response was, "But then I wouldn't be playing Guard."
Anyways, we're going to have to agree to disagree on IG regimental doctrines as per the previous codex. You say "Hell No", I say I would love to see the ability to apply Deep Strike to my entire army, or buy Light Infantry for some squads so that I can Infiltrate them, or buy Carapace army for almost any unit, and yes, I'd still like it even at the cost of having to spend a doctrine point to be able to take Stormtroopers (sorry, they're Scions now) or Ratlings or whatever. And GW could even (as I seem to recall they did before) release lists of doctrines to match up to their 'historical' regiments for those that want to play Vostroyan or Mordians or Valhallans or ... So round and round we go, your turn to tell us again how much you dislike the very idea of Regimental Doctrines.
Kanluwen wrote: If you want Deep Strike for your entire army, play Elysians.
So I shouldn't have it available in my IG codex and should have to buy an extra Forgeworld book just to have that option? And what about the other possibilities? What if I want to mix Infiltration and deepstrike? Cause maybe I want to play my own mix of doctrines, not one of GWs 'historical' builds. You don't like it? Fine. Don't use it. But to say that no one should have it just because you don't like it is a bit... one-sided, to say the least.
Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.
And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".
Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.
"Combat Doctrines" is what Space Marines have now. They're supposed to be an army defining trait that can tip the balance of a match with a benefit(the listed unit types) and a semi-drawback(the "Affected models" bits), but as it stands now? You have to be Ultramarines or fielding specific formations or the Gladius in order to use them.
They are once per game things, stackable(a Battle Demi-Company allows you to use Tactical once per game that is Ultramarines allowing you to do Tactical again--1+1=2 uses) that do the following:
Assault Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 in the Assault phase of this turn. Affected Assault Squads, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Centurion Assault Squads--including any Independent Character that have joined those squads, can instead reroll all failed To Hit rolls in the Assault phase of this turn.
Tactical Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn. Affected Tactical Squads and ICs in them can reroll all failed To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn.
Devastator Doctrine--Rerolls on 1s in Shooting. ICs and Devs can reroll all in Shooting.
You're thinking of Regimental Doctrines, which I've expressed my displeasure with elsewhere. Like Chapter Tactics, they're a cool idea but there's too much min/maxing that goes on now. I don't want to see yet more of it.
Yes, I know the difference. I believe your post was a follow-on to someone else's comment re IG doctrines so I didn't think it was necessary to be pedantic. I'll try to do better next time.
But you still didn't answer my question. I get that you don't like them. Ok, I do. That was (IMO and experience with playing IG since 2nd ed) the best codex/main rule set combination IG have had. I've offered my own anecdotal evidence as to why I think so previously in the thread (also in response to one of your negative posts on IG doctrines). Not sure how IG would min/max effectively using such a codex but whatever. Course, right now, don't know if such a codex would truly be game effective (ie competitive) or not, depends on what the 40K rules morph into. But... it would satisfy a large number of IG players that want customizable regiments and many die-hard IG players have basically given up on being competitive without adding in some special uber-allies. Heh, one of our local players was bashing my 'pure' IG list, telling me I needed to add these Marines or this whatever and my response was, "But then I wouldn't be playing Guard."
Anyways, we're going to have to agree to disagree on IG regimental doctrines as per the previous codex. You say "Hell No", I say I would love to see the ability to apply Deep Strike to my entire army, or buy Light Infantry for some squads so that I can Infiltrate them, or buy Carapace army for almost any unit, and yes, I'd still like it even at the cost of having to spend a doctrine point to be able to take Stormtroopers (sorry, they're Scions now) or Ratlings or whatever. And GW could even (as I seem to recall they did before) release lists of doctrines to match up to their 'historical' regiments for those that want to play Vostroyan or Mordians or Valhallans or ... So round and round we go, your turn to tell us again how much you dislike the very idea of Regimental Doctrines.
Don't understand why Kanluwen doesn't want to customize a regiment in his image.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I take that back. I do understand. It's because Kanluwen is in the process of drafting a new IG codex. Naturally all units in his collection (plus a few he wants) will be included. Any doctrines he likes will be invisible ones added into the main rules. As long as the IG are exactly everything Kanluwen wants to fit his playstyle, all is right with the world. Nuts to the rest of us.
jreilly89 wrote: Pretty sure it's been covered already, but one thing I'd like to see is essentially an Open-topped Taurox or the IG equivalent of an Ork Trukk. Dirt cheap, flimsy, but great for just running around and causing chaos. Plus, throwing out lots of Flamer templates would be a blast.
I remember people combining Bretonian Men-At-Arms with IG parts. The wide brimmed helmets looked good imo.
I'd like to make my Cadians minis look different, and I was thinking of giving the brodie/kettle helmets as they are readily available and inexpensive. Not sure how well the various historical WW1/WW2 helmets will match up with the Cadian bodies. I don't want to spend too much money, but I also don't want to end up with a regiment of pinheads.
Something that would be interesting would be to bring back higher-ranking officers (Regimental Command Squad). It would be cool if they gave orders not to individual squads, but more strategic orders to the entire army. Like reducing the cover save of enemy units inside a certain piece of terrain, or giving all friendly units within 12" of an objective Stubborn.
You know, thinking about it I could quite easily right a Guard codex in oh.... Shall we say two weeks for the initial product, and it would be internally balanced, capable of taking on the big three on an even power level and be incredibly varied and flexible enough to give a good representation of every aspect of the Guard. Allow another month for play testing, revision and you have the final product (rules wise at least) in about a month and a half. And this includes formations, doctrines, orders, new and exciting units, fixing and redesigning the broken units, etc.
If I, a lowly worker whom has never written any rules before, can do this within such a small time frame and do it well then why cant the so called "experienced" and "veteran" rules writers at GWHQ?
Spoiler:
Maybe if they where less obsessed with trying to push bolter porn and new Marine fan(p) fiction/models they would do better
Looking at what has emerged so far out of the Gathering Storm series which I guess we are all taking as an end-times-esque prequel to 8th ed and also looking at AoS as a mangling/fix of WFB, I am feeling increasingly sure that GW will be dialing up the herohammer past 11 to infinity and beyond with warhammer 8th. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing because 28mm is just the wrong scale for company level wargames with super heavies, flyers and tank battalions but is much better suited to relatively few super heroes punching each other out. However this does not bode well for IG because of all the 40k factions IG lends itself the least to herohammer so will probably get less love than the sisters have had for the last decade or more. The other horde armies like Orks and Tyranids will fare a lot better because they can readily be adapted to a heroification given that Orks can produce monsters like Ghazgull and the Beast and Tyranids are already at least half composed of monstrous creatures. I predict IG will sit out the entirety of 8th with no new rules or minis at all.
I predict this against my best hopes because I actually really want a guard army more than the others. Hopefully epic gets a reboot, for in epic scale guard should get plenty of love.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Something that would be interesting would be to bring back higher-ranking officers (Regimental Command Squad). It would be cool if they gave orders not to individual squads, but more strategic orders to the entire army. Like reducing the cover save of enemy units inside a certain piece of terrain, or giving all friendly units within 12" of an objective Stubborn.
This is a really interesting idea, and would make senior officers more relevant than just having access to the reserved orders and being able to issue 1 more. Mix in a few orders unique to certain regiment types and I think we'd have a solid system on our hands.
What if they could swap their lasguns for better ones? S4 AP4 Heavy 1?
I like the idea but AP 4 is a lot. 30" range and S4 I can back though.
How about salvo? Two shots at 30 inches or one at 15".
I'd like to see at least a few options in las-weapon types. Lascarbines with shorter ranges and higher ROF for light infantry, lasrifles with longer range and strength for heavy infantry, the current lasguns for general infantry, and one or two more types for highly specialized or thematic regiments.
While Sigmar is a smaller scale game that focuses more on its personalities, even within its units, it's done a better job of representing the abilities of its heroes in a more supportive fashion than 40k has, with its constant escalation of close combat beatsticks. While the attention has certainly gone towards a few certain armies so far (a fair bit I'm willing to forgive, what with a lot of stuff being new up until this point), factions like the Freeguilds, Skaven, and Grots rely a lot on larger body counts with heroes that fill more supportive roles.
Considering the current 40k push towards more excessive degrees of herohammer, an AoSification could do a lot to open up avenues to more varied and useful supportive heroes.
What if they could swap their lasguns for better ones? S4 AP4 Heavy 1?
I like the idea but AP 4 is a lot. 30" range and S4 I can back though.
How about salvo? Two shots at 30 inches or one at 15".
I could get behind giving them "lasrifles" with 30" range, rapid fire (+1pt?). Catachan/Steel Legion/harakoniLascarbines would be 18" assault 2(free swap?). Elysian lasbullpups would be 24" Assault 2 (+1pt?). That being said, I think that lasgun variants should stay a consistent S3 AP-, hellguns/hotshots and long-las's notwithstanding.
Here's a list of things I would like to see being addressed/changed, or just general spitballing to get more ideas flowing.
1. Commissars provide aura of +1 LD and Summary Execution. Allows the choice of taking commissars but not having to devote to creating a blob for him to be effective. Something like 8" would be appropriate.
1a. Same for Priest I would say.
2. Platoon Standards allows nearby squads to re-roll pinning on base leadership 8. Or +1 LD on regrouping roll. As of now, the thing is useless, wounds in close combat? Why GW. Why. 6" or heck, make it 6" + LoS needed.
3. Medi-packs. See where I'm going with this? Provides feel-no-pain in 8" (CCS) or 6" (PCS)
4. Leman Russes crews are trained how to use their vehicles, mostly. Why are they firing snapshots whilst the ordnance is being fired? Doesn't make any sense to me. Same with with them being able to fire at separate targets from main cannon.
5. I would like to see a rehashed boon table and call it a promotion table, where each squad (or sergeant), when completing their assigned objective, gain a permanent (or 1 turn only) bonus.
I would like the IG to follow some of the ways AoS is going in terms of buffing. Stormcast/Freepeoples where the more unique characters (Priests, Commissar, Psykers) provide Aura benefits/orders that directly keep the infantrymen from not falling apart.
Ultimately what I'm looking for is more synergy between the units of the Imperial Guard, so that the force feels like each unit works in cohesions as should a combined arms IG army should be in some way.
NivlacSupreme wrote: What if we all just abandon the current codex and go back together the 5th edition one? Or the imperial cults and militia list?
Because while the 5th edition managed to be fairly powerful in 5th edition, the current state of codex creep at this point would leave it still lagging pretty far behind, even if it would be an improvement over the current one.
Meanwhile in the SM thread, posters are stressing over which power armor style looks best and whether or not it's okay to mix mk IV armor with a mk V helmet and mk VII backpack Oh, to have tier 1 problems.
Zontarz wrote: I would like the IG to follow some of the ways AoS is going in terms of buffing. Stormcast/Freepeoples where the more unique characters (Priests, Commissar, Psykers) provide Aura benefits/orders that directly keep the infantrymen from not falling apart.
Ultimately what I'm looking for is more synergy between the units of the Imperial Guard, so that the force feels like each unit works in cohesions as should a combined arms IG army should be in some way.
I like it. I like the idea of the squads staying and fighting because their comrades are staying and fighting around them. The wonders of peer pressure, eh?
Fafnir wrote: Considering the current 40k push towards more excessive degrees of herohammer, an AoSification could do a lot to open up avenues to more varied and useful supportive heroes.
There seems to be a lot of things to like about AoS. I'm not a fan of herohammer, but I'm trying to get used to it. Also, in AoS while the heroes look crazy on paper in the battle reports I've seen it looks like they actually die easier than in 40k due to not being able to join squads.
I was reflecting on this topic today and I wondered if the IG will go the way of the Empire in AoS; still playable but largely unsupported. The reason I thought this is because I considered how much I have expanded my IG force over the past year (a substantial expansion) and yet I bought only a small amount from GW because of the plethora of 3rd party Guard bits and models I've purchased. However, my army still perfectly fits the 40k aesthetic even though I've barely bought any GW kits.
I've heard this point raised before and I think it is a good one and one that is probably influencing GW quite a bit. That is that it's pretty difficult to copyright-protect the existing Guard line because of how generic they are, and how their fluff allows for such a diversity of different forces. My example perfectly illustrates this point; I have a great looking 40k Guard army but it has lots of 3rd party bits and models. This isn't what GW wants, but rather than revamp the Guard to have a more distinct 40k aesthetic (like Scions) they may just drop them in order to sell more Space Marines.
I personally would rather just see them repack the existing Cadian line and provide them with some more accessories / options and better rules, but I have a feeling we may get the Empire treatment. I don't really want new Guard models, as the prospect of buying and painting 60+ more guardsmen is not appealing compared to expanding my head-swapped Cadian force.
CplPunishment wrote: Meanwhile in the SM thread, posters are stressing over which power armor style looks best and whether or not it's okay to mix mk IV armor with a mk V helmet and mk VII backpack Oh, to have tier 1 problems.
I don't even know what any of that is. But I'm not tier I, either.
CplPunishment wrote: Meanwhile in the SM thread, posters are stressing over which power armor style looks best and whether or not it's okay to mix mk IV armor with a mk V helmet and mk VII backpack Oh, to have tier 1 problems.
I don't even know what any of that is. But I'm not tier I, either.
NivlacSupreme wrote: What if we all just abandon the current codex and go back together the 5th edition one? Or the imperial cults and militia list?
Because while the 5th edition managed to be fairly powerful in 5th edition, the current state of codex creep at this point would leave it still lagging pretty far behind, even if it would be an improvement over the current one.
FWIW, as a casual player, I still play the last "Codex: Imperial Guard", published back in 5E. I refuse to pay money for a Codex that covers a completely different (and worse!) "Astra Militarum" army.
As a casual player, it's C:IG is OK playing against other casuals, although it's rather obvious that 6E & 7E books have amped up the power since then. Knights & Ad Mech are definitely stronger than C:IG.
Just reading through the conversation here, I would love for the IG (well, 40k in general) to get the AoS treatment. But for the IG to end up like the Empire (or worse, the Bretonians or Tomb Kings!) would break my heart.
But, I have a feeling that what GW might do is push the Militarum Tempestus to the forefront. They're pretty marketable and copyright friendly. And yes, the IG would struggle in a hero hammer setting, but perhaps that means that pyskers should come to the forefront. I'm just brainstorming.
Future War Cultist wrote: But, I have a feeling that what GW might do is push the Militarum Tempestus to the forefront. They're pretty marketable and copyright friendly. And yes, the IG would struggle in a hero hammer setting, but perhaps that means that pyskers should come to the forefront. I'm just brainstorming.
If the IGHQ units continue to come in squads while everyone else's HQ choices are left out in the open would they suffer that much? A single IG character would get stomped but with an honor guard and a bunch of advisors the Officer might be more survivable. They also might be able to use a "chain of command" type rule to let use another model in the CCS as a junior officer if the senior officer gets killed. So when a lobba shell takes out Captain Too-Slow the next turn Lieutenant Lucky starts giving orders (maybe only one a turn, but it's better than nothing).
Future War Cultist wrote: Just reading through the conversation here, I would love for the IG (well, 40k in general) to get the AoS treatment. But for the IG to end up like the Empire (or worse, the Bretonians or Tomb Kings!) would break my heart.
But, I have a feeling that what GW might do is push the Militarum Tempestus to the forefront. They're pretty marketable and copyright friendly. And yes, the IG would struggle in a hero hammer setting, but perhaps that means that pyskers should come to the forefront. I'm just brainstorming.
Yeah, this wouldn't surprise me either. I've made this point a few times, as have others and I can't help but be a little concerned. I was expecting the Tempestus Scions mini-'dex to just rot as a quick cash grab codex... but since then they've been actively supporting them with their own £100 box and even a Start Collecting! box. They've also featured more prominently than the regular Guard... which is to say, they've still barely appeared at all, but they've received artwork and been in most of the Gathering Storm model photos alongside Greyfax in every book.
The problem they would have is bringing over the rest of the Imperial Guard's kit. That is, unless they pull a retcon and bring the Scions closer to the Solar Auxilia wherein they're a sizeable chunk of the Guard (SA were 25% of the Imperial Army), complete with armour and artillery, and do away with the dedicated Special Forces shick altogether.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If the IGHQ units continue to come in squads while everyone else's HQ choices are left out in the open would they suffer that much? A single IG character would get stomped but with an honor guard and a bunch of advisors the Officer might be more survivable. They also might be able to use a "chain of command" type rule to let use another model in the CCS as a junior officer if the senior officer gets killed. So when a lobba shell takes out Captain Too-Slow the next turn Lieutenant Lucky starts giving orders (maybe only one a turn, but it's better than nothing).
Assuming that you used AoS's damage allocation system, it would mean that you'd have to kill the full CS before you could touch the officer.
Arbitrator wrote: Yeah, this wouldn't surprise me either. I've made this point a few times, as have others and I can't help but be a little concerned. I was expecting the Tempestus Scions mini-'dex to just rot as a quick cash grab codex... but since then they've been actively supporting them with their own £100 box and even a Start Collecting! box. They've also featured more prominently than the regular Guard... which is to say, they've still barely appeared at all, but they've received artwork and been in most of the Gathering Storm model photos alongside Greyfax in every book.
The problem they would have is bringing over the rest of the Imperial Guard's kit. That is, unless they pull a retcon and bring the Scions closer to the Solar Auxilia wherein they're a sizeable chunk of the Guard (SA were 25% of the Imperial Army), complete with armour and artillery, and do away with the dedicated Special Forces shick altogether.
I think this could work. If it's the only way forward for us then so be it. And I like the idea of Militarum Tempestus tanks. All this would require is a recasting of the crew heads. Replacing the Cadian and Catachan ones with the helmeted and beret Scion heads. Same for Sentinels.
I play Khorne Bloodbound, and one thing it's taught me is that it's perfectly possible to have an army made up of diverse units with various backstories whilst retaining a unified feel. The new Astra Militarum could be that. Scions, Ogyrns, Ratlings, Pyskers, all the vehicles...it could work.
Come to the marines, who are the opposite (all units are largely the same and the variation is their gear).
Some of the most fundamental problems with the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids seems to stem from GW treating the Guard, Orks, and Nids as what amounts to faceless cannon fodder in a setting starring the Astartes, their spikey counterparts, the Space Elves, the Necrons, and the Tau. I mean, really take a look at what factions have been allowed to do anything of importance lately in and of themselves.
Big galaxy shaking external threats? Pretty much all done by the Necrons or the spikey lads now. Meanwhile the Orks and Nids' biggest contribution to the setting as of late has been essentially a self contained war of mutual annihilation between two sides incapable of being annihilated at Octarius; a supposedly epic demolition derby of a scale beyond any battle ever seen in the galaxy since the war in heaven...and yet all that's known about it can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition. Who's been doing all the moving and shaking in recent imperial fluff? The Mechanicus, Astartes, and Inquisition! Who has correspondingly gotten all the best and newest toys? The Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition! The guard has all of one, maybe two characters who have any importance or impact on the wider setting while the big four (SMs, CSMs, Eldar, Necrons) are basically choking with characters upon whose shoulders the fate of large portions of the galaxy rests. And as of right now, one of those characters; Creed, is out of play, and Yarrick seems to have been entirely forgotten about. In a business driven by the sales of elaborate models; the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids find themselves struggling as a platform to push models to be sold. The guard are down to earth and don't lend themselves well to "character models" like the triumvirates released recently, the Orks are easily scratch built and GW doesn't seem to care to make ork boss characters look distinctive beyond their gear choices, and the Tyranids generally rankle at the idea of super special and unique dudes who can win battles on their own.
It's also noting that these are the three armies that most stereotypically rely on weight of numbers, but have hit a snag in that time and money cost is a very real limit on the size of an army with physical models; and while all three armies should have had at the least; points cuts across the board in the face of stupendous degrees of firepower and durability that not even pre-6th edition apocalypse would ever see fielded; even if you could field 2 point guardsmen, boys, and gants would you? It'd be a pain to set up outside of things like Vassal (where 40k in general is a much smoother game to play), it'd be a pain to move them all around, and the fact of the matter is that even literally a thousand guardsmen, gaunts, or boyz fielded for only 2000 points would be pretty easy to swat off the table in droves while not really having all that much firepower to them.
Thus; these armies end up suffering because they're balanced on the assumption of having some sort of mass to their advantage (whether that's mass of tanks, mass of monstrous creatures, or mass of infantry), but are in a meta where simple numbers aren't a particularly good form of durability anymore. Thus the assumptions that they're balanced around are pretty fundamentally broken from the word go, and the most obvious solutions to improve them without pushing them towards the elite end of the scale are not practical in the format of a tabletop wargame.
So 40k's three armies most famous for the usage of cannon fodder have in essence; become cannon fodder on a meta level. Both in the fluff where they seem to exist to serve as backdrops for the armies more favoured by GW and on the tabletop where the core conceit of their factions doesn't hold well in a meta where "cover ignoring high strength good AP" pie plates are everywhere and "durable" has escalated in meaning tremendously, In ye olden days, durable meant "tyranid warriors with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, and a 3+ save for a decent price" but now that'd get a "pfft". Durable now means "these canoptek wraiths have 3++ saves, toughness 5, a 4+ RP roll, two wounds and they'll also be assaulting you by turn two" or it means "a wraithknight with fortune because screw you".
It would be very difficult to get our less elite armies to compete with that without in essence; becoming elite armies themselves like the top tier armies in 40k. Or without becoming significantly more complex armies with a bevy of special flavor rules for themselves to try and make them more potent in a unique way, which preserves their flavor but can run the risk of making them tiresome to play and play against.
Kain wrote: Some of the most fundamental problems with the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids seems to stem from GW treating the Guard, Orks, and Nids as what amounts to faceless cannon fodder in a setting starring the Astartes, their spikey counterparts, the Space Elves, the Necrons, and the Tau. I mean, really take a look at what factions have been allowed to do anything of importance lately in and of themselves.
Big galaxy shaking external threats? Pretty much all done by the Necrons or the spikey lads now. Meanwhile the Orks and Nids' biggest contribution to the setting as of late has been essentially a self contained war of mutual annihilation between two sides incapable of being annihilated at Octarius; a supposedly epic demolition derby of a scale beyond any battle ever seen in the galaxy since the war in heaven...and yet all that's known about it can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition. Who's been doing all the moving and shaking in recent imperial fluff? The Mechanicus, Astartes, and Inquisition! Who has correspondingly gotten all the best and newest toys? The Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition! The guard has all of one, maybe two characters who have any importance or impact on the wider setting while the big four (SMs, CSMs, Eldar, Necrons) are basically choking with characters upon whose shoulders the fate of large portions of the galaxy rests. And as of right now, one of those characters; Creed, is out of play, and Yarrick seems to have been entirely forgotten about. In a business driven by the sales of elaborate models; the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids find themselves struggling as a platform to push models to be sold. The guard are down to earth and don't lend themselves well to "character models" like the triumvirates released recently, the Orks are easily scratch built and GW doesn't seem to care to make ork boss characters look distinctive beyond their gear choices, and the Tyranids generally rankle at the idea of super special and unique dudes who can win battles on their own.
It's also noting that these are the three armies that most stereotypically rely on weight of numbers, but have hit a snag in that time and money cost is a very real limit on the size of an army with physical models; and while all three armies should have had at the least; points cuts across the board in the face of stupendous degrees of firepower and durability that not even pre-6th edition apocalypse would ever see fielded; even if you could field 2 point guardsmen, boys, and gants would you? It'd be a pain to set up outside of things like Vassal (where 40k in general is a much smoother game to play), it'd be a pain to move them all around, and the fact of the matter is that even literally a thousand guardsmen, gaunts, or boyz fielded for only 2000 points would be pretty easy to swat off the table in droves while not really having all that much firepower to them.
Thus; these armies end up suffering because they're balanced on the assumption of having some sort of mass to their advantage (whether that's mass of tanks, mass of monstrous creatures, or mass of infantry), but are in a meta where simple numbers aren't a particularly good form of durability anymore. Thus the assumptions that they're balanced around are pretty fundamentally broken from the word go, and the most obvious solutions to improve them without pushing them towards the elite end of the scale are not practical in the format of a tabletop wargame.
So 40k's three armies most famous for the usage of cannon fodder have in essence; become cannon fodder on a meta level. Both in the fluff where they seem to exist to serve as backdrops for the armies more favoured by GW and on the tabletop where the core conceit of their factions doesn't hold well in a meta where "cover ignoring high strength good AP" pie plates are everywhere and "durable" has escalated in meaning tremendously, In ye olden days, durable meant "tyranid warriors with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, and a 3+ save for a decent price" but now that'd get a "pfft". Durable now means "these canoptek wraiths have 3++ saves, toughness 5, a 4+ RP roll, two wounds and they'll also be assaulting you by turn two" or it means "a wraithknight with fortune because screw you".
It would be very difficult to get our less elite armies to compete with that without in essence; becoming elite armies themselves like the top tier armies in 40k. Or without becoming significantly more complex armies with a bevy of special flavor rules for themselves to try and make them more potent in a unique way, which preserves their flavor but can run the risk of making them tiresome to play and play against.
Which is crazy, because both Orks and Nids have massive creatures that they should be able to run as a decent force. You look at SM with their centurions, bikers, etc. and then You would Ork bosses and Nobs should give them a run for their money. Nids should have the option to run armies of big bugs that pack a punch for their points cost.
IG are really the limiting factor here given they're humans, which they should be able to make up for with heavy weaponry. The kind of artillery power Renegades can bring on the cheap should be just as available for IG.
Kain wrote: Some of the most fundamental problems with the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids seems to stem from GW treating the Guard, Orks, and Nids as what amounts to faceless cannon fodder in a setting starring the Astartes, their spikey counterparts, the Space Elves, the Necrons, and the Tau. I mean, really take a look at what factions have been allowed to do anything of importance lately in and of themselves.
Big galaxy shaking external threats? Pretty much all done by the Necrons or the spikey lads now. Meanwhile the Orks and Nids' biggest contribution to the setting as of late has been essentially a self contained war of mutual annihilation between two sides incapable of being annihilated at Octarius; a supposedly epic demolition derby of a scale beyond any battle ever seen in the galaxy since the war in heaven...and yet all that's known about it can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition. Who's been doing all the moving and shaking in recent imperial fluff? The Mechanicus, Astartes, and Inquisition! Who has correspondingly gotten all the best and newest toys? The Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition! The guard has all of one, maybe two characters who have any importance or impact on the wider setting while the big four (SMs, CSMs, Eldar, Necrons) are basically choking with characters upon whose shoulders the fate of large portions of the galaxy rests. And as of right now, one of those characters; Creed, is out of play, and Yarrick seems to have been entirely forgotten about. In a business driven by the sales of elaborate models; the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids find themselves struggling as a platform to push models to be sold. The guard are down to earth and don't lend themselves well to "character models" like the triumvirates released recently, the Orks are easily scratch built and GW doesn't seem to care to make ork boss characters look distinctive beyond their gear choices, and the Tyranids generally rankle at the idea of super special and unique dudes who can win battles on their own.
It's also noting that these are the three armies that most stereotypically rely on weight of numbers, but have hit a snag in that time and money cost is a very real limit on the size of an army with physical models; and while all three armies should have had at the least; points cuts across the board in the face of stupendous degrees of firepower and durability that not even pre-6th edition apocalypse would ever see fielded; even if you could field 2 point guardsmen, boys, and gants would you? It'd be a pain to set up outside of things like Vassal (where 40k in general is a much smoother game to play), it'd be a pain to move them all around, and the fact of the matter is that even literally a thousand guardsmen, gaunts, or boyz fielded for only 2000 points would be pretty easy to swat off the table in droves while not really having all that much firepower to them.
Thus; these armies end up suffering because they're balanced on the assumption of having some sort of mass to their advantage (whether that's mass of tanks, mass of monstrous creatures, or mass of infantry), but are in a meta where simple numbers aren't a particularly good form of durability anymore. Thus the assumptions that they're balanced around are pretty fundamentally broken from the word go, and the most obvious solutions to improve them without pushing them towards the elite end of the scale are not practical in the format of a tabletop wargame.
So 40k's three armies most famous for the usage of cannon fodder have in essence; become cannon fodder on a meta level. Both in the fluff where they seem to exist to serve as backdrops for the armies more favoured by GW and on the tabletop where the core conceit of their factions doesn't hold well in a meta where "cover ignoring high strength good AP" pie plates are everywhere and "durable" has escalated in meaning tremendously, In ye olden days, durable meant "tyranid warriors with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, and a 3+ save for a decent price" but now that'd get a "pfft". Durable now means "these canoptek wraiths have 3++ saves, toughness 5, a 4+ RP roll, two wounds and they'll also be assaulting you by turn two" or it means "a wraithknight with fortune because screw you".
It would be very difficult to get our less elite armies to compete with that without in essence; becoming elite armies themselves like the top tier armies in 40k. Or without becoming significantly more complex armies with a bevy of special flavor rules for themselves to try and make them more potent in a unique way, which preserves their flavor but can run the risk of making them tiresome to play and play against.
Which is crazy, because both Orks and Nids have massive creatures that they should be able to run as a decent force. You look at SM with their centurions, bikers, etc. and then You would Ork bosses and Nobs should give them a run for their money. Nids should have the option to run armies of big bugs that pack a punch for their points cost.
IG are really the limiting factor here given they're humans, which they should be able to make up for with heavy weaponry. The kind of artillery power Renegades can bring on the cheap should be just as available for IG.
The thing about TMCs is that by now I'm pretty sure most people can field better monstrous creatures. Perhaps not more, but certainly better ones. Certainly less fragile ones. And for an army that's presented as an in your face close quarters army; the Tyranids (much like Khornate armies for that matter) are resoundingly underwhelming at assault because the meta is so stuffed to the gills with devastatingly powerful shooting options that if you can't fly across the board and laugh off tank shells to the face you may as well not even bother with assault. The tyranids simply don't have anything as fast and as tough as canoptek wraiths or wraithknights and unlike the genestealer cult don't have the special rules to get into CQC regardless.
The Orks have a similar issue in actually getting anything into close combat to smash faces. The days of a footslogging mob of boyz being able to get into assault in one piece are pretty thoroughly long gone while trukks don't have enough carrying capacity and battlewagons are expensive and not all that tough in the current meta. And like the Tyranids, the Orks simply don't have the kind of devastating shooting that the top tier armies have, or the obscene durability that many of them have (Necrons in particular) so their supposed forte and strength is something that doesn't actually matter in a lot of games.
The Guard may not be a close quarters oriented army, but their core conceit is that they are the least elite of the armies of the Imperium man for man, and instead rely on being numerous, flexible, and having top class armour support. The issue is that large numbers of GEQs don't take much longer to die than small numbers of GEQs in the current meta thanks to the incredible amounts of firepower available to the current player's top tier armies, the guard's flexibility seems to now mostly manifest as "being just kind of mediocre at everything" as they're lacking in actual firepower, and Imperial Guard vehicles have fallen a long ways away from the peak they had in 5th edition. And perhaps more insultingly, it's quite arguable that armies like the Eldar, Necrons, or the Astartes are just plain better at the mechanized warfare thing than the Guard are now. The Leman Russ and Chimera look great on paper; in practice they can't compete with the bonanza of special rules the top tier armies can give their vehicles either right outside the box or as part of a formation., Much like how in the current meta, it's pretty easy to argue that other armies are now simply better than the Tyranids when it comes to fielding monstrous and gargantuan creatures or tough-semi monstrous infantry (warriors, shrikes, and raveners are pretty mediocre at best but you have things like Canopteks and Centurions running around that are just flat out better).
The Guard and the Tyranids have suffered from other armies outclassing them in what was supposed to be their specialty.
Kain wrote: Some of the most fundamental problems with the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids seems to stem from GW treating the Guard, Orks, and Nids as what amounts to faceless cannon fodder in a setting starring the Astartes, their spikey counterparts, the Space Elves, the Necrons, and the Tau.
As above nothing obviously wrong with that, assuming that fodder is actually fodder. If IG / Nid / Ork units didn't give KPs, then they're all truly expendable, which would greatly help with the notion of winning "at any cost" against the all-stars. KP missions become a HUGE advantage for the fodder armies, while still allowing MSU "acceptable losses" when going after objectives.
If they went back to unit costs, that would be truly fair. Or they could do what AoS does and have victory depend upon securing objectives first, with KPs only used as a tie breaker.
As for what they can do with the Astra Militarum...they must be able to keep them, right?
I think they should focus on the warmachines. Humans are squishy. Russes are deadly.
Big galaxy shaking external threats? Pretty much all done by the Necrons or the spikey lads now. Meanwhile the Orks and Nids' biggest contribution to the setting as of late has been essentially a self contained war of mutual annihilation between two sides incapable of being annihilated at Octarius; a supposedly epic demolition derby of a scale beyond any battle ever seen in the galaxy since the war in heaven...and yet all that's known about it can be summed up in a few paragraphs.
Actually Ghazzies Waagh! Was mentioned in Gathering Storm where apparently they've mastered the ability to tellyport entire fleets across sectors.
Kain wrote: The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition.
^THIS. This is exactly why guard players are pissed off. The guard have become a backdrop to the rest of the setting. I seriously cannot even imagine how Cadian players feel right now. The destruction of Cadia was to be your finest hour. Yeah the planet was destroyed before Cadians were, but you barely even received mention in the gathering storms books. The vast majority of the writing was spent talking about the emotions of demi-gods (Celestine, Cawl, Greyfox, Abaddon etc). Not nearly enough time was spent highlighting the actions & bravery of Cadians on the planet or Kell/Creed.
Now with Creed in Trazyn's pokeball, Cadians are leaderless. Sure there are billions, likely trillions of Cadians left in the galaxy but who is leading them? Guilliman? Is Guilliman now the supreme leader of the guard as well? Isn't the reason the guard were separated into regiments into the first place was to prevent mass heresy? Guilliman can't be everywhere at once, nor should he. The guard need heroes as well, and right now we don't.
Thats it. In a setting where guard outnumber marines a billion if not a trillion to one, these are what we have left. Marines meanwhile have dozens if not well over a hundred heroes between chapters.
GW needs to tread carefully because I already know what is coming. The 4th war of Armageddon is about to begin. Angron is going to return for reasons and its going to be all about him and chaos. Meanwhile, Armageddon has been all about the ork/guard conflict for nearly two decades.
Don't piss off your ork/guard players GW. Don't do it.
Kain wrote: The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition.
^THIS. This is exactly why guard players are pissed off. The guard have become a backdrop to the rest of the setting. I seriously cannot even imagine how Cadian players feel right now. The destruction of Cadia was to be your finest hour. Yeah the planet was destroyed before Cadians were, but you barely even received mention in the gathering storms books. The vast majority of the writing was spent talking about the emotions of demi-gods (Celestine, Cawl, Greyfox, Abaddon etc). Not nearly enough time was spent highlighting the actions & bravery of Cadians on the planet or Kell/Creed.
Now with Creed in Trazyn's pokeball, Cadians are leaderless. Sure there are billions, likely trillions of Cadians left in the galaxy but who is leading them? Guilliman? Is Guilliman now the supreme leader of the guard as well? Isn't the reason the guard were separated into regiments into the first place was to prevent mass heresy? Guilliman can't be everywhere at once, nor should he. The guard need heroes as well, and right now we don't.
Thats it. In a setting where guard outnumber marines a billion if not a trillion to one, these are what we have left. Marines meanwhile have dozens if not well over a hundred heroes between chapters.
GW needs to tread carefully because I already know what is coming. The 4th war of Armageddon is about to begin. Angron is going to return for reasons and its going to be all about him and chaos. Meanwhile, Armageddon has been all about the ork/guard conflict for nearly two decades.
Don't piss off your ork/guard players GW. Don't do it.
Yeah, the game has not been particularly kind to its "horde armies" in either the fluff or the crunch throughout this edition. I mean, by all rights the majority of the setting's conflicts should feature Orks, Tyranids, and the Guard due to them being the most numerous and widespread factions by far (well, we aren't sure on the Necrons anyway and Daemons while theoretically numerous have pretty harsh limitations on the scale of their incursions due to finding it hard to stay in the materium) and yet you take a look at what engagements have been getting all the press as of late and you'll realize something striking. It's basically all about the Marines, Inquisition, Mechanicus, Eldar, Chaos, and 'Crons now; with the Tau fitting in after them. All armies where it's easy to push big flashy "character models" (or in the Tau's case "battlesuits, all the battlesuits").
Ork players tend to prefer to scratch build their big superheavy vehicles, and out of the Ork characters with models; only Ghazghkull is really important on a galactic scale the way Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar are. With an army that absolutely can produce lovable and visually distinctive characters who can beatstick with the best of them; the paucity of such characters for the Orks is pretty baffling. For the Guards, having a big giant beatstick character model that you must have kind of goes against the feel of the army in a big way, Straken, Deddog, and Yarrick are the best the guard can produce in that regard and they'd get mulched in moments by any serious heavy hitters; which is fine thematically as the Guard are humans that lack in transhuman augments (either biological like the astartes, or mechanical like the Mechanicus; though it's more to say that a Guardsman can never get cyborg augments as good as a Techpriest can than to say that they can't have any) or power armor like the Sororitas or Inquisition. However, this does mean that even if you dig for famous Guardsmen like Ciaphas Cain or Lord General Castor they're not going to be as impressive as anything other armies can pull (I mean, his stupendous luck and fighting skill aside, Cain has a chainsword, a laspistol, and carapace armor; that's not going to translate into amazing stats).
Similarly, most Guardsmen special characters are localized in a way that the more famous Space marines, Inquisitors, Daemons, Eldar and so on are not. Straken doesn't really go around the galaxy, meanwhile Calgar's fought battles in every segmentum. This means that the guard's special characters end up quite frankly being less special than nearly everyone else's because they're almost never really allowed to have more than a local effect (something shared by most Tyranid and Ork special characters). Prince Yriel is a galaxy trotting badass with a spear that can cause pain to GODS! Deddog on the other hand is uh...he's an extended forest gump reference with some super strength and is a pretty decent guard? Logan Grimnar's fought battles with every army in existence and beaten down the mightiest champions of Khorne and flipped off the inquisition! The Deathleaper is urm...an extra spooky lictor who made taking this one planet easier. Azhek Ahriman's schemes are a web that ensnares the entire galaxy and when given time his spells can summon forth planet sized warpspawn and he plans on becoming a god! Zogwort's really just Wurzzag from Warhammer fantasy except without the Merlin references, and is also not in the game anymore.
All three armies get like; one character each who's allowed to be important on a wider scale (Creed, the Swarmlord, Ghazghkull) even though if GW tried they could do way better than that (yes, even with the Tyranids: at the very least the Tyranid Special characters could not be one offs but instead some special strains spawned as needed. Hell; the Godzilla series, Jurassic Park, and Moby Dick show it's perfectly possible to characterize something that can't speak) meanwhile GW's favoured armies have a laundry list of characters whose decisions have a massive degree of influence.
And this is all on top of how it seems GW either does not know how to, or is unwilling to keep these three spam armies competitive with its favorites; with updates that tend to reduce flavor and options, new additions that only rarely address actual needs for the army (did anyone really need what things like the Taurox, Haruspex, or the Gorka/Morkanauts were bringing to the table? Nevermind that they don't compare very favorably to their counterparts in other armies), and as far as formations go; the decurion detachments of the top tier armies are just plainly better than anything the three horde armies get (though to be fair, the closest to a Decurion detachment the Tyranids get is the Living Tide formation of formations which seems like a prototype of the decurion concept; which is far more rigid and has a nutty minimum points requirement).
You'd think that at the very least, if they want us to be expendable cannon fodder we could at least get more formations that allow for respawning and don't count for killpoints or something; things like the Skyblight Swarm formation are a pretty good start on that if that's the direction they want to go. It'd probably be more manageable for everyone that doing something like doubling the model count of what we can bring to the table for the same points cost and actually make the supposed strength in attrition warfare that the Guard, Orks, and Tyranids have matter more. Right now, if there's anyone who dominates in attritional warfare it's the Necrons and bizarrely; the army perhaps best suited to bringing so many units to the table it's impossible to table them all (barring summoning shenanigans) practicably are...the marines and their free vehicles.
So we're in this rather bad spot where we are, as the Daleks would say
(I mean, his stupendous luck and fighting skill aside, Cain has a chainsword, a laspistol, and carapace armor; that's not going to translate into amazing stats).
Well you could make a great Cain character:
WS6, BS5, S3, T3, I 5, W3, A3, LD10 - plenty of special rules: Eternal Warrior, Precision Shot, Rending attacks, some dice manipulation abilities to represent his luck, ability to give orders etc . Add in Jurgan with his Blank (Sisters of Silence rules) abilities to screw over Psykers and a Precision Shot Melta-gun
Could be fun.
Sadly Sandy Mitchel does not seem to be writing new stuff :(
I know what they can do. Bring out really high ranking generals (Lord Militants or whatever they're called), and stick them into Baneblades. This is assuming that tanks are fixed in the new edition to be less vulnerable. Yarrick on the Fortress of Argogance is a prime example of an IG heavy hitter. It would be hard to complain about us being weak when we can literally squash other characters under our tracks!
It solves the fluff issue too. These guys would be in command of millions of troops across a whole sector. That can help face multiple enemies.
I'm going to make some fanfiction called "fall of Macragge".
It's going to be about every notable guard regiment and barely mention space marines at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The problem that arises for human characters when the timeline advances a couple hundred years is that they tend to die of old age...
Plot advancement=bad news for existing characters. Look at Macharius.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The IG lost so many characters from 5th it's ridiculous!
Automatically Appended Next Post: 5th edition was the best codex not just for tanks but unique characters too.
I know what they can do. Bring out really high ranking generals (Lord Militants or whatever they're called), and stick them into Baneblades. This is assuming that tanks are fixed in the new edition to be less vulnerable. Yarrick on the Fortress of Argogance is a prime example of an IG heavy hitter. It would be hard to complain about us being weak when we can literally squash other characters under our tracks!
It solves the fluff issue too. These guys would be in command of millions of troops across a whole sector. That can help face multiple enemies.
We had that following the 13th Black Crusade in White Dwarf.
"Imperial Guard High Command" or something to that effect. It actually was fairly interesting, as it let you take Stormtroopers instead of Veterans and other interesting options.
Just nothing silly like "mounted in Baneblades".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: (I mean, his stupendous luck and fighting skill aside, Cain has a chainsword, a laspistol, and carapace armor; that's not going to translate into amazing stats).
Well you could make a great Cain character:
WS6, BS5, S3, T3, I 5, W3, A3, LD10 - plenty of special rules: Eternal Warrior, Precision Shot, Rending attacks, some dice manipulation abilities to represent his luck, ability to give orders etc . Add in Jurgan with his Blank (Sisters of Silence rules) abilities to screw over Psykers and a Precision Shot Melta-gun
Could be fun.
Sadly Sandy Mitchel does not seem to be writing new stuff :(
Kain wrote: The Guard meanwhile, have basically become NPCs to the Astartes, Mechanicus, and Inquisition.
^THIS. This is exactly why guard players are pissed off. The guard have become a backdrop to the rest of the setting. I seriously cannot even imagine how Cadian players feel right now. The destruction of Cadia was to be your finest hour. Yeah the planet was destroyed before Cadians were, but you barely even received mention in the gathering storms books. The vast majority of the writing was spent talking about the emotions of demi-gods (Celestine, Cawl, Greyfox, Abaddon etc). Not nearly enough time was spent highlighting the actions & bravery of Cadians on the planet or Kell/Creed.
Of course we didn't get much mention in the Gathering Storm books. The only one that Cadians actually featured in was "Fall of Cadia". After that, the books were set in totally different areas of the galaxy.
Now with Creed in Trazyn's pokeball, Cadians are leaderless. Sure there are billions, likely trillions of Cadians left in the galaxy but who is leading them?
Whoever their regimental leader is?
You didn't think that Creed was in direct command of every single Cadian, did you?
Guilliman? Is Guilliman now the supreme leader of the guard as well?
No, but it's not like Creed was "Supreme Leader of Cadian Shock Troops" either. He was the Lord Castellan of Cadia, a title that was intended for times of war to give a leader unquestioned authority on Cadia itself.
Isn't the reason the guard were separated into regiments into the first place was to prevent mass heresy?
That's the reason why the Navy and Guard were split.
Guilliman can't be everywhere at once, nor should he.
Just like Creed, Yarrick, Pask, Nork Deddog(who's a bodyguard not a hero proper), etc.
The guard need heroes as well, and right now we don't have any.
But therein lies the issue.
Why do we need individual named heroes done the way we have them now? As it stands right now, aside from Yarrick--Guard heroes are just "upgrades" to generic units. A Company Command Squad can take Straken and Nork Deddog, Harker can be taken in a Veteran Squad, Pask upgrades from a Tank Commander.
It is and always should have been that a named character came with his named Command Squad. I mean, for the longest time that's how Creed and Kell worked. You bought one, you got the other and they had to stay together. Then Cruddace went and Cruddace'd it up.
Who's left?
Yarrick,
Not Guard by anything but the loosest measures(Commissariat are their own deal, fluffwise), and certainly not an actual hero. He's an old Commissar who's been beaten repeatedly by an Ork, who let Yarrick live because it amuses him.
Yarrick just gets Guardsmen killed. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, hero?
Pask, Nedogg, Straken & Harker (sort of?)
That's it. In a setting where guard outnumber marines a billion if not a trillion to one, these are what we have left. Marines meanwhile have dozens if not well over a hundred heroes between chapters.
Those are the ones with rules, yes. Go look at the various Marine books. You're looking at a similar number of heroes for each Chapter(in some cases, far less) when narrowing it down to those with "actual rules".
Raven Guard--Captain (Whenever he gets redone, he'll be Chapter Master since they killed the Chapter Master off in spectacularly awful fashion) Shrike
Salamanders--Forgefather(essentially a Questing Knight) Vulkan
Imperial Fists--Captain Lysander(1st Company Captain)
Crimson Fists-Chapter Master Pedro Kantor
White Scars--Khan(Master of the Hunt)
Ultramarines-Captain Sicarus(2nd Company Captain), Marneus Calgar(Chapter Master), Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius(Master of the Chaplaincy), Sergeant Telion(10th Company Veteran), Sergeant Chronus(tank commander). Ultramarines are the outlier in that they got loaded heavily with characters. Nobody really knows why, but people love to speculate that it was Ward's doing. Personally, I think it is that some of them were intended to be part of other Chapters initially but given the way the old Chapter Tactics worked(you could have characters present, Chapter Tactics applied to the army not individual characters) they likely just foisted them off as "counts as" opportunities.
Black Templars--High Marshal Helbrecht, Emperor's Champion, Chaplain Grimaldus
So. My Raven Guard have a single character(two if you count Korvidae from FW and Imperial Armour 8, which is loooong since out of print and out of date). Don't hear me complaining I need more characters.
Guard had a character for the Steel Legion players(Yarrick), two for Catachans(Straken and Harker--down from 3 with Marbo), three for Cadians(Creed, Kell, Pask--down from 4 with Bastonne in the previous book). And then you had Nork Deddog, a named bodyguard Ogryn who could show up anywhere.
GW needs to tread carefully because I already know what is coming. The 4th war of Armageddon is about to begin. Angron is going to return for reasons and its going to be all about him and chaos. Meanwhile, Armageddon has been all about the ork/guard conflict for nearly two decades.
Well, except for that whole bit about there having been a number of Sisters of Battle Orders and Chapters being involved.
Oh, and Hive Gangers forming ad hoc guerilla organizations.
Totally all about the ork/guard conflict. Totally.
Don't piss off your ork/guard players GW. Don't do it.
I'm not sure named characters is the answer. IG won't have single characters who will stand up to the likes of Guilliman or Magnus. GW could release a bigger Ghazkhull who's become stronger and larger due to a larger WAAAGH and make Nids MCs more resilient.
With a potentially new Armageddon campaign on the rise, I see potential for new IG formations. As much as I dislike formations, IG could benefit from ones that don't require you take an entire army with paltry bonuses like they have now. Look at Eldar. Aspect formation is just 3 squads of aspect warriors who get either +1 WS or BS. Why can't IG get a similar veteran/scion formation with a similar buff? The Chaos Cyclopia Cabal is just 3 sorcerors. IG could use more flexibility with some punch. If you take an airborne formation, they get some benefits from going all air. SM have so many different valid playstyles and IG have only a few.
Yeah Imperial Guard formations as they stand are pretty abominably bad or resoundingly mediocre outside of a few stand outs.
The discussion about named characters was more about how the Imperial Guard's characters are ultimately; very rarely allowed to be as important as their counterparts in the "posterboy" armies to the overall setting. It's a symptom of how the Imperial Guard has essentially become the NPC faction of the Imperium. They're almost background elements while the Inquisition, Space Marines, and Mechanicus are the ones who bask in the limelight.
Kain wrote: Yeah Imperial Guard formations as they stand are pretty abominably bad or resoundingly mediocre outside of a few stand outs.
The discussion about named characters was more about how the Imperial Guard's characters are ultimately; very rarely allowed to be as important as their counterparts in the "posterboy" armies to the overall setting. It's a symptom of how the Imperial Guard has essentially become the NPC faction of the Imperium. They're almost background elements while the Inquisition, Space Marines, and Mechanicus are the ones who bask in the limelight.
Right, but at the end of the day, they're still humans. And IG generals won't be on the battlefield. As one of my friends who's an infantry officer said "Once you move past Captain and you use your weapon, something is wrong." Commanders are back at high command making large operational and strategic decisions like moving entire regiments and divisions. Sadly, whenever Inquisitors or SM commanders show up, IG pretty much has to say "omg my lords, do whatever you want. We are at your disposal." I think some IG characters who are mid-level commanders (from Captains to Colonels) who give their armies bonuses is a step in the right direction. It's not making them incredible CC machines, but using their intellect to outwit the enemy. Colonel Johnson is a strict drillmaster so infantry units within 18" of him reroll 1s on shooting. Captain Snuffy has been revolutionizing air assault; so he has a formation where Valkyries are cheaper and add +1 to reserve rolls. IG characters could be force multipliers, not gargantuan killing machines.
As much as I am worried for the future of the guard because I see GW turbo charging herohammer for the foreseeable future thus sidelining guard as the faction the least amenable to the herohammer approach, I don't see the guard at present as being in such a terrible place now though.
Some reasons why guard are okay if not great:
- No other faction has more super-heavy options (which goes for double if you include forgeworld).
- Guard have a very good variety of vehicles.
- Infantry plus attached characters plus orders allows for a lot of tactical variety.
- There are some pretty good and useful guard formations now which is something many factions still lack. The guard decurion is hard to pull off without an apocalypse sized budget of points but then that is probably how it should be.
Flanker wrote: I'm not sure named characters is the answer.
I concur. I think IG needs better support characters who AREN'T named. And better formations, too. In fact, out of all of the factions, the Imperial Guard should really benefit the MOST from formations, IMO.
Commissar Benny wrote: Now with Creed in Trazyn's pokeball, Cadians are leaderless. Sure there are billions, likely trillions of Cadians left in the galaxy but who is leading them? Guilliman? Is Guilliman now the supreme leader of the guard as well? Isn't the reason the guard were separated into regiments into the first place was to prevent mass heresy? Guilliman can't be everywhere at once, nor should he. The guard need heroes as well, and right now we don't.
Guard can do hard cheddar if you don't mind being a massive dick.
Take the Emperor's Fury Formation with 3 Baneblade variants with a transport capacity. Fill up the SHV transport capacity with taxless enginseers + servitors from the imperial agents book and enjoy an army composed entirely of SHV vehicles that each regenerate 3HP per turn.
I'm not personally a fan of named characters outside of narrative games in settings where they actually fit. I guess most people like using them, though, so I'm not going to get all worked up over it.
That said, I could see a named command squad making sense. Like, a full command squad with all sorts of advisors and every single model has a name and something special that it does. Stick them in a command vehicle that trades firepower for void shields and enhances the abilities of the command squad even further.
It totally doesn't make sense to have your general fighting from the front, but I can see how it could fall under the rule of cool.
Something that could also be cool is for the Guard to have named "character" tanks. I actually like that idea more than most named characters.
Do you mean a named character in the tank or the tank itself is a named character? Either way, I can support that.
Either way would be cool, but I was thinking more of the tank itself being a named character. Like, a tank that is hundreds of years old and has fought on dozens of planets. It might actually get wrecked have the crew die sometimes, but they always salvage what's left and rebuild it. (It could have a vehicle version of Eternal Warrior that means it never explodes.)
Of course, in the fluff they would probably give each crewmember a name. It could also give them opportunities to re-do the model and its equipment every couple of editions. The crew would die dramatically and the tank would be temporarily disabled with it's engines and/or turret destroyed, but they would rebuild it better than ever and assign it a new crew of highly skilled tankers.
They could do all sorts of cool stuff, like a Leman Russ Demolisher that has better movement and gives Zealot and Crusader to any friendly Guard units within 12".
I also have this funny picture in my head of during deployment plopping down a Baneblade and my opponent being all like "LOL, what is that supposed to do -- wait, is that Big Susie Taufether?" Then with tears in his eyes he scoops up his Riptide Wing and throws it right in the trash.
(Except, like I said, I don't normally play with named characters.)
Yeah, as someone who served in the Russian army I can tell you that crews routinely attach names and personalities to their tanks and tanks can gain reputations and legends of their own just the same as soldiers can. In the forty second millenium I see no reason why; in a setting where belief can make things true if enough people believe it hard enough to affect the warp and where older nearly always is better and super customs beat the tar out of factory standards; that you would not have legendary vehicles. Especially in the Imperium where machine worship is the second religion of humanity.
In all honesty the FW guard book brings some great potential for new units to the core codex.
Artillery units that can receive orders? Yes please.
A variety of tank commanders with different special rules? Yep
Vultures... twinlinked punisher cannons with vector strike? *drools*
Hell if they started making a plastic salamander kit I'd have a wet dream. They're generally much better than scout sentinels. You could make plenty of new plastic guard units without really worrying about them losing their theme.
Another idea I've been playing with is Company combinations. Realistically we're not thematically playing Guard armies on the table top as *Companies* more battalions. Have the ability to combine say an army with a core infantry or mechanised company, supported by support companies such as recon, tanks, engineer/artillery.
Akin to the Command Salamander, have recon elements reduce your opponents cover saves and allow artillery to reduce their scatter even without LOS.
Have guard heavy artillery being able to pin units that aren't even normally pinnable.
Have mechanised units that can hit hard and fast, maybe even reduce the cost of the chimera.
Give Russ commanders better orders, return the ability to fire all weapons at max BS and allow them to overwatch if they have a commander within "12. Add beast hunter shells to the core dex so they can deal with those pesky tau MC's.
Such things would actually allow you to thematically run a guard army like a modern army. The only unit's I would struggle to fix would be bog standard guardsmen, but I would make heavy weapon teams more durable. Tbh though with the right *support* elements grunts can shine.
Flanker wrote: I'm not sure named characters is the answer. IG won't have single characters who will stand up to the likes of Guilliman or Magnus.
At the scale 40k has grown to, named IG Characters aren't going to match Primarch-class threats.
What IG needs are friendly Knights and other big items that can drop those threats at range. Massed S(D+1) Deathstrike Missiles with Void warheads, for example.
SolarCross wrote:As much as I am worried for the future of the guard because I see GW turbo charging herohammer for the foreseeable future thus sidelining guard as the faction the least amenable to the herohammer approach, I don't see the guard at present as being in such a terrible place now though.
Wut
Some reasons why guard are okay if not great:
Lets hear it then
- No other faction has more super-heavy options (which goes for double if you include forgeworld).
Superheavies that vary from slightly overpriced for their stats (Baneblade variants), too bad (Machirus) utterly outrageous/laughable (Malcador).
- Guard have a very good variety of vehicles.
All of which are overpriced and heavily underperforming.
- Infantry plus attached characters plus orders allows for a lot of tactical variety.
An order system which is laughably bad and basically requires the commanding unit to leg hump the target for the officers yodelling. In the meantime the so-called buff characters range from overpriced 'boom-headshot' (commissars), 'Choppychoppy close quarters dude' (pries), and 'only 10 points cheaper than the far better SM equivalent' (sanctioned psyker).
- There are some pretty good and useful guard formations now which is something many factions still lack. The guard decurion is hard to pull off without an apocalypse sized budget of points but then that is probably how it should be.
Which ones? The one which requires you to bring a full platoon plus a Sentinel to gain an extra order or the one that requires multiple units of overpriced and very squishy psykers? Or any of the others? The only ones worth taking are the artillery one, the tank one and the super heavy one, and the latter only so that you can take a bound army with three baneblades in it.
The Guardcurion is fething awful. For the low low low price of around 1.5K you get an extra order and a bonus order per turn. It is diabolical. You have close to 300 models on the board and you get jack all for it, and none of them are very tough and without upgrades (good luck with only about 500-600 points left) you have no firepower outside of about 9 Multilasers.
In the meantime the Marines get to bringg free transports with 6 minimal strength squads, two HQ choices and a pair of Centurion/dev squads/tank squadrons. Oh and they get Obsec too. We dont even get Obsec in the Guardcurion.
SolarCross wrote:Guard can do hard cheddar if you don't mind being a massive dick.
Take the Emperor's Fury Formation with 3 Baneblade variants with a transport capacity. Fill up the SHV transport capacity with taxless enginseers + servitors from the imperial agents book and enjoy an army composed entirely of SHV vehicles that each regenerate 3HP per turn.
Taxless Enginseers? Wut? They still cost points you know and you can only bring a certain number per Inquisitor detachment. And those Baneblades are costing 500 points each - the formation works out at around 1545 points on average (45 for the one Enginseer you have to bring) and cannot hold objectives.
SolarCross wrote:
Something that could also be cool is for the Guard to have named "character" tanks. I actually like that idea more than most named characters.
Pask. Comes in three different varieties depending on the Russ variant chosen for him.
Pask is awful. Something better than him. A lot better.
The character needs to outperform the Marines Chronus by along mile.
Funny you should mention that. I had thoughts of a future where the Knights and the Militarum Tempestus were combined into one faction, with the later being the Men-At-Arms of the former. Just a crazy thought really.
Flanker wrote: I'm not sure named characters is the answer. IG won't have single characters who will stand up to the likes of Guilliman or Magnus.
At the scale 40k has grown to, named IG Characters aren't going to match Primarch-class threats.
Oh please. Even back in ye olde times of nostalgia, IG characters weren't a match for other races.
What IG needs are friendly Knights and other big items that can drop those threats at range. Massed S(D+1) Deathstrike Missiles with Void warheads, for example.
Pah. What you need is the Wrath of Cadia relic laspistol.
Wounds on a 4+, and the target always falls on a roll of 3 or less when attempting to save it.
Ultramarines-Captain Sicarus(2nd Company Captain), Marneus Calgar(Chapter Master), Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius(Master of the Chaplaincy), Sergeant Telion(10th Company Veteran), Sergeant Chronus(tank commander). Ultramarines are the outlier in that they got loaded heavily with characters. Nobody really knows why, but people love to speculate that it was Ward's doing. Personally, I think it is that some of them were intended to be part of other Chapters initially but given the way the old Chapter Tactics worked(you could have characters present, Chapter Tactics applied to the army not individual characters) they likely just foisted them off as "counts as" opportunities.
Because it was originally Codex: ULTRAMARINES back in 2nd edition and was expanded later on to become the overall generic Space marine book rather then using a supplement alongside it. The only additions that are really new came in 5th were Telion and Chronus and they had lost Tyrannic War Veterans from 4th which became the generic Sternguard.
Funny you should mention that. I had thoughts of a future where the Knights and the Militarum Tempestus were combined into one faction, with the later being the Men-At-Arms of the former. Just a crazy thought really.
I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?
I feel there are disagreements between the fluff, the models and the actual gameplay.
They could release five new guard characters tomorrow in "Gathering Storm - Addendum, Sorry We Forgot About You" and I don't see how it would fix the army or make it dramatically more attractive to players. Same if there was a new series of books focusing on regular guardsmen.
As I see it the problem with Guard is the two fantasies (blob and massed armour) are both pretty bad on the table top.
The damage output of the game has increased massively while for Guard it has stayed fairly static. Same for Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Orks (outside of skewing for 1-2 options). Stuff is too expensive for its points. Things either need to be buffed or there needs to near faction wide reduction in points outside of maybe 1-2 options.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?
Hey, would you use a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut?
I was going all AoS again, but I was envisioning the Imperium fracturing and Imperial Knights ruling sectors with their own private armies in toe. But I'm getting distracted.
Tyel wrote: As I see it the problem with Guard is the two fantasies (blob and massed armour) are both pretty bad on the table top.
The damage output of the game has increased massively while for Guard it has stayed fairly static. Same for Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Orks (outside of skewing for 1-2 options). Stuff is too expensive for its points. Things either need to be buffed or there needs to near faction wide reduction in points outside of maybe 1-2 options.
Guardsmen can't be buffed, because you can't overlap Storms (BS4 S3 T3 Sv4+) or Sisters (BS4 S3 T3 Sv3+), so you can only really drop their points. Problem is that not everybody can or wants to field 100s of Guardsmen. Even if a squad of 10 were cut to 30 pts with VS, at some point, you run out of deployment space.
Russes & Chimeras have a similar issue, where cutting points drives HUGE (expensive) model count and board space.
IG will get more value from strong Reserves and off-board Artillery.
Suppose IG could take Orbital Strikes, 1 per Platoon or Company. 125 pts for a S(D) Large Blast that arrives from Reserves with unlimited range from a Vox-equipped PCS spotter; 300 pts for Heavy 3 from a Vox-equipped CCS with a MOO. Now you can have IG players taking Platoons with 100s of points in firepower that takes up no space on the tabletop.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?
Hey, would you use a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut?
I don't know what I was thinking. A sledgehammer is the answer to everything.
Anywho, I've got an idea to improve orders. All orders should be available to all officers. None of that Senior Officer only nonsense. Remove the range limit as well because headsets are a things. Voxes are still a reroll. In addition, when an Officer issues an order to a unit that's part of a platoon, he can issue this order to as many units within the platoon as they want, testing on the highest leadership among them. All units must still shoot at the same target though, counting as one unit. So for example, an infantry platoon command squad could issue Bring It Down to itself plus an infantry squad with a vox caster and a load of lascannon teams from their platoon, testing at the Officer's Leadership with a reroll. It passes, and so they let fly at one MC with about 8 lascannons plus plasmas and lasguns etc. with Monster Hunter.
Allow heavy artillery to pin unpinnable units (aka basilisk and the like and not wyverns).
etc etc. Give extra utility to other units too. Hell would give more reason for people to use ratlings and scout sentinels, basilisks and so on.
How about, units hit by the heavy artillery type units move as if in difficult terrain and also have their assaults effected too. What's that marine formation called again, The Skyhammer Formation? Emperor's Wraith Artillery Companies should be our Skyhammers. Not just killing in droves but leaving the survivors dazed and confused.
Definitely agree that the Recon Units should be supporting everything else in the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, I'm stealing some Raven Guard rules here but here's an idea:
In the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon, in addition to granting Move Through Cover to units close to them, the Scout Sentinels also allow a unit from the formation to Outflank with them without rolling for reserves. Kinda like the Pinion Battle Demi-Company.
He's my favorite guard character. Reminds me of myself.
This. He was really useful (could issue orders to his own unit).
Sure he was useful, but his fluff is really neat. Other special characters are really tough (like Harker) or skilled high ranking officers (like Creed), he's just a sergeant who's probably got PTSD.
Ultramarines-Captain Sicarus(2nd Company Captain), Marneus Calgar(Chapter Master), Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius(Master of the Chaplaincy), Sergeant Telion(10th Company Veteran), Sergeant Chronus(tank commander). Ultramarines are the outlier in that they got loaded heavily with characters. Nobody really knows why, but people love to speculate that it was Ward's doing. Personally, I think it is that some of them were intended to be part of other Chapters initially but given the way the old Chapter Tactics worked(you could have characters present, Chapter Tactics applied to the army not individual characters) they likely just foisted them off as "counts as" opportunities.
Because it was originally Codex: ULTRAMARINES back in 2nd edition and was expanded later on to become the overall generic Space marine book rather then using a supplement alongside it. The only additions that are really new came in 5th were Telion and Chronus and they had lost Tyrannic War Veterans from 4th which became the generic Sternguard.
Yeah, this.
Though the characters were different. It was Marneus, Invictus, Tigurius, Cassius and Ancient Helveticus.
Other chapters were added to the codex in 3rd Ed, when it just became the generic SM codex. (which it really was, prior. Other "codex" chapters weren't very fleshed out in 2nd Ed. )
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Kain wrote: Yeah, as someone who served in the Russian army I can tell you that crews routinely attach names and personalities to their tanks . . .
I would have thought it was the other way around in Russia. . . .
Kain wrote: Yeah Imperial Guard formations as they stand are pretty abominably bad or resoundingly mediocre outside of a few stand outs.
The discussion about named characters was more about how the Imperial Guard's characters are ultimately; very rarely allowed to be as important as their counterparts in the "posterboy" armies to the overall setting. It's a symptom of how the Imperial Guard has essentially become the NPC faction of the Imperium. They're almost background elements while the Inquisition, Space Marines, and Mechanicus are the ones who bask in the limelight.
Right, but at the end of the day, they're still humans. And IG generals won't be on the battlefield. As one of my friends who's an infantry officer said "Once you move past Captain and you use your weapon, something is wrong." Commanders are back at high command making large operational and strategic decisions like moving entire regiments and divisions. Sadly, whenever Inquisitors or SM commanders show up, IG pretty much has to say "omg my lords, do whatever you want. We are at your disposal." I think some IG characters who are mid-level commanders (from Captains to Colonels) who give their armies bonuses is a step in the right direction. It's not making them incredible CC machines, but using their intellect to outwit the enemy. Colonel Johnson is a strict drillmaster so infantry units within 18" of him reroll 1s on shooting. Captain Snuffy has been revolutionizing air assault; so he has a formation where Valkyries are cheaper and add +1 to reserve rolls. IG characters could be force multipliers, not gargantuan killing machines.
You nailed exactly what Guard special characters should be. Take a look at Guilliman's army wide bonuses to represent how great a commander he is. Guard special characters should follow a similar format yet remain str3 t3 etc. Make them excellent COMMANDERS.
SolarCross wrote: Guard can do hard cheddar if you don't mind being a massive dick.
Take the Emperor's Fury Formation with 3 Baneblade variants with a transport capacity. Fill up the SHV transport capacity with taxless enginseers + servitors from the imperial agents book and enjoy an army composed entirely of SHV vehicles that each regenerate 3HP per turn.
Funny you should mention that, I recently attempted a similar tactic, loading up a Stormlord with Enginseers and servitors so that is autorepaired 3 hullpoints per turn. Cheese right? You know what happened? It was taken from 9 hullpoints to 0 hullpoints with a single attack in a single turn by a single D weapon wielded by a model half the Stormlord's point cost.
But that can be done without giving them expensive fragile single mini units like you describe. Commissars, priests, captains, etc need to be better for their points and effect the army more efficiently... but we don't necessarily need Colonel Badass McAwesomepants the Slayer of Billions.
I mostly agree with the points made on special characters, though I think Priests are already amazing for 25 points, and Primaris Psyker's can be effective force multipliers, since the Ignores Cover and 4+ invul divination powers are very useful.
Our killiest named character I would say is Straken, followed by Yarrick, who I have to admit is quite good on paper, minus a couple flaws. Those flaws being still too expensive, only I3, few ablative wounds in a 5 man unit that only LoS on a 4+, and a total lack of Eternal Warrior, which above all screws him the most, as T4/average unit T3 is fairly easy to inflict ID. Not awful, but still not great, either. Oh well, for me he's had some limelight vs Necrons, once.
Edit: the point I was trying to make with that which I promptly forgot to make was that even with a stat line quite extreme for a human, our CC-oriented characters still are by no means top-tier CC units, and it'd be pointless to try to go in that direction. Unit buffing characters/better orders characters and the like could be successful and even competitive, however. Like Priests or Regimental Advisors, just a little better for close to the same cost would be optimal.
Guard revolves around AV targets and flimsy 1W models. Their weapons are classic and linear. Players are exploiting weapons that don't target stat values, as well as units that don't have many accessible counters.
40k needs a rework so Lascannons, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, missiles and high-strength blasts are more relevant. Do that and half of the IG's problems are over.
My suggested codex changes to make AM more competitive:
Rules changes:
Orders go off auto within 12" or with vox (otherwise too far away to issue)
PCS, CCS can blob with ANY platoon squads
Can order from/to inside chimera/taurox
Dedicated transports count as part of unit (fire/move/ECT with orders)
World's without number: can elect to swap transport versions with any version in current IOM codex (must pay the price from that codex)
Weight of fire: any model/ unit hit with lasguns suffers the following penalties for the rest of the turn (once wounds are scored):
Hit by 15 shots - minus 1 AC (including invulnerable)
Hit by 20 shots - minus 1 T
Hit by 30 shots - no cover saves of any kind
Russes gain back lumbering and split fire on main gun (sponsons shoot before ordinance, or snap fire). Squad Russes must target same unit with main guns (unless split fire order)
Vehicle upgrades stay the same plus:
10 points: veteran crew (+ 1 bs)
15 points Bird hunters (can elect to skyfire all weapons for a turn), tank hunter (2 dice for pen or damage) or monster hunter (wounds do D3 on MC)
HQ 60 CCS base - medic, vox, & 4 vets
commander always has carapace
lasguns, pistols, and CCW all around
5 points for banner (stubborn within 12")
Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list
All officers are 15 points
Commissars, priest get a 5 point reduction
Primaris is now 40 points
30 points for techpriest AND one servitor (upgrades stay the same for servitors)
20 Tank commander stays same, can order up to 2 tank units to gain split fire, twin linked, bird/tank/monster hunter
OR
coordinate fire (give BS to all tanks within 12" for the turn)
30 tank commissar , 3 orders, 5 BS, same as above
Psykers are 10 points, can't take gear
Troops:
30 PCS, commander 4 guardsmen, vox
Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list
Can take Chimera, taurox, valkerie
50 infantry squad, lasguns
HS Lasgun, Heavy bolter, vox, frag grenades
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory
Upgrades: HS Lasgun and/or HBolter to any other 5 point from list free, any from 10 point for 5
5 points for Krak grenades
Can take Chimera, valkerie
55 infantry combat squad, lascarbines, laspistols, CCW 2 Flamer, heavy flamer
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory
Flamers can swap for non heavies from list
5 points for Krak grenades
Can take Taurox, valkerie
50 Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters/mortars
Upgrade to AC, ML for 5 points, LC for 10
40 special weapon squad Sergeant and 5 guardsmen with HS lasguns
Sergeant and 2 others can take any non heavy in armory as an upgrade
Can take valkerie
Conscripts stay the same
60 Veterans take either lasguns or lascarbines.
CCW, laspistols, frag and Krak grenades
Either 3 hotshot lasguns, 3 heavy flamers
All 3 can swap for any weapon in the armory (heavy weapons are held alone)
Sergeant can swap for any non heavy
Grenadiers and sentries stay the same, demo is 20 points
Can take chimera, Taurox or valkerie
Transports:
55 chimera multilaser and HBolter
12/11/10
Can swap either for HBolter, hflamer
Can take Autocannon, TL HBolter for 5 points
40 Taurox same as before
100 Valkerie transport
Lascannon for 5, rocket pods for 5, bolters for 10
Eletes:
100 Ogryns: add fnp 5+, 30 per model
Ripper gun: S5 AP5 18" assault 3 (can be used in assault)
Can take chimera
115 Bullgryns: add fnp 5+, 35 per model,can ADD mail and shield for 15
Can add Chimera
50 Wyrdvanes: 10 per extra, power level 2 if 10 models
Ratlings: change to move-fire-move, can squad up or start game attached to units (1 per)
Tempests platoon removed (have their own army)
30 Scout sentinel, multilaser
Same upgrades,
5 points swap for HS Volleygun
10 points, add power claw
35 armored sentinel (see above)
50 Armored Scout Cavalry
(Rough riders on cav/bikes/ECT)
Add T4, jink, Lasgun carbines, 10 points per model
2 riders can replace carbine with non heavy from armory
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory
Hellhound chassis get 25 point reductions and 11 rear armor
150 Vendetta, same with sponsors only costing 10
Leman Russ all get free pintle stubber, sponsons 10 points cheaper, no more gets hot on plasma, add HS volley sponson for 15 points
Pintle mounts grant TL if they hit first
Exterminators get rending,
Vanquishers become SD on a 5 or 6 to hit
JohnHwangDD wrote: IMO, IG need to get away from the idea of blobbing. While it was situationally effective for a while, it's an awful way to play the army.
Agreed. A 10 man veteran squad can take a long time itself just to fire. You have orders to pass, then you have to shoot your lasguns, then you have to shoot your bolter, then you shoot your special weapons (sometimes you even have 2 types). It is tedious and can be confusing for your opponent.
I'd be very surprised if the Infantry Platoon as it works now makes it into 8th. I like the 'fluffiness' of it and as a mechanic I quite like it, but I just don't see them keeping it for some reason. Call it a gut feeling.
The IG Platoon is fine. There's nothing inherently wrong IG having plenty of Guardsmen in their Troops choice. Transported Combat Squadded SM are 3 units per Troops choice.
The problem with the IG Platoon is that it lacks impact in proportion to its numbers and dollar cost. If I spend an IKT's sum on Guardmen, then the net performance level should be similar.
I must disagree with these mutterings towards platoons; they are excellent choices for troops, but it depends on how they're used and the support they're given. His is one of those cases where there value does not come from direct damage output**, though occasionally a blob can pack a wallop.
Take a 40 man platoon, throw in a priest and a Primaris or two. That is ObSec that will take an entire game to shift, if at all. A large platoon blob makes excellent bubble wrap, as they can prevent deep strikes near a key vehicle unit. And, although it's been demonstrated repeatedly, platoon blobs are one of the best tarpits out there, perhaps excluding things with Stomp. You can get your points' worth back from more than just killing stuff, never forget.
I cannot emphasize enough how much better they get with ample psychic support. Fish that 4+ invul, and the boys are staying on the table much longer than expected, and at much fuller strength by the game's end. If you fish Ignores Cover, that plus prescience makes a HWS (read: part of the platoon, so it counts) not only viable, but quite potent, and your opponent will likely try to commit limited high S fire to double out bases still getting cover saves (right?). Forget mass scatbikes, I play Warhammer, not Cheesehammer, so my point is valid against normal opponents. If you fish the Rending malediction, well... that infantry blob whose main job isn't damage now has potentially high damage output as a cherry on top. I normally take 2 ML2 Psykers, so I generally get two of these better div powers, at worst I've gotten just one, but given that Prescience comes automatically, you'll always be able to get mileage out of Psykers, though the extent of said mileage may vary.
**I'd like to make mention that platoon blobs have the potential for high damage, though it is a secondary or even tertiary role for the unit. Let's use the following plausible scenario as one such instance: a 40 man platoon has a Primaris that generated Misfortune. An enemy Riptide has successfully nova charged it's fusion blaster or whatever, jumped up to blast a Russ squadron currently bubble wrapped by said blob. Hopefully the tank survives with camo and bodies in the way, but perhaps not. Whether from an exploding vehicle, or other units shooting, you're down to 25 lasguns, and some odd special weapons and sergeants. The Riptide JSJs away, but after a 6" move you'll be able to get a number of guardsmen in rapid fire, and you cast Misfortune on the big guy. Order FRFSRF, say 15 are in RF range. That's 65 las shots, 32.5 hits, and 5.42 rending wounds. Well, they charged a weapon to feth up a tank, not their invul. That means 5.42 wounds goes to 3.61 wounds after 5+ invul, and 2.41 wounds after FnP. Suddenly, a Riptide might be half dead from a unit that had no business doing any wounds to it at all. Continue with business as usual as the big robot man seriously reconsiders sticking around. With a little luck, you could roll a few extra 6s to wound and do significantly more damage.
TL;DR platoons are pretty good and can be made very good if treated well. YMMV, but on average they get gak done.
The problem is that blobs are un-fluffy. IG aren't a mob of Boyz. They're an organized multiple of squads. Blobs are more of an Orky rule than an IG rule.
Ya'll can bash guard characters as being inherently worthless, but Sly Marbo was so good that I literally stopped taking him to keep friendships intact.
And 5th edition characters were great because they buffed guardsmen around them.
Chenkov and Al'Rahem had special orders. Now they're gone
Bastonne gave orders to his own squad. Now he's gone.
Harker gave his squad infiltrate and steath. Now he's a waste of 55pts.
Straken was less expensive, but suffered then as he does now from a lack of Eternal Warrior.
Creed could at one point outflank practically anything from your wildest dreams. Now he gets an extra random trait. MEH.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe special characters are the solution to our woes. I just think they should be useful, worth their points and focus on buffing guardsmen around them.
I'm glad blobs are un-fluffy for IG because they are a terrible way to play. It is unfortunate that the way the orders system works basically forces you into blobbing if you want to use infantry effectively.
CplPunishment wrote: Ya'll can bash guard characters as being inherently worthless, but Sly Marbo was so good that I literally stopped taking him to keep friendships intact.
Sly Marbo was a cheap, pop-up Demo Charge. I never once saw anyone use him for anything else.
And 5th edition characters were great because they buffed guardsmen around them.
Chenkov and Al'Rahem had special orders. Now they're gone
Chenkov didn't have special Orders. He had a 12" Stubborn bubble, access to "Move! Move! Move" and "Get Back in the Fight" with the ability to issue two Orders a turn, and the ability to recycle Conscript Squads via "Send In the Next Wave"...which cost you 75 points on top of the Conscript Squad.
Al'Rahem granted mandatory Outflank and a "Shoot->Move D6" in a direction of your choice" Order.
Bastonne gave orders to his own squad. Now he's gone.
Yep. Because reasons. There was a lot of complaining that he shouldn't have been a Cadian, that he should have been a Mordian or some crap.
Harker gave his squad infiltrate and steath. Now he's a waste of 55pts.
Straken was less expensive, but suffered then as he does now from a lack of Eternal Warrior.
Yeah, the Catachans got the shaft. But not really a surprise given that this edition is rough on anything that relies on Cover saves because of Jink.
Creed could at one point outflank practically anything from your wildest dreams. Now he gets an extra random trait. MEH.
Blame the people who abused the hell out of him being able to Outflank "practically anything".
He has 2 Warlord traits instead of 1, allowing you to roll twice on the same table or once each on two different Warlord Traits tables. Plus he can issue 3 Orders a turn; with mandatory re-rolling of failed Orders. With the addition of the Cadian warlord trait tables, he became a hell of a lot more interesting...potentially.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe special characters are the solution to our woes. I just think they should be useful, worth their points and focus on buffing guardsmen around them.
The point that people are trying to iterate here is that Guard characters, as they stand now, aren't Guard characters. They're a single dude thrown into a Command Squad, with Command Squads currently being used for the plethora of weapons they can take.
Something that I've wanted for a long time (though I doubt that it will ever happen) would the the removal of veterans as their own unit. Instead they should be replace with the ability to upgrade any unit with in the IG army with one of the following: +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 SV. This way you could make your ogryn beast in melee, infantry squad even more shooty, and your ministorum priest survivable. You could also buy this upgrade for vehicles, but as vehicles don't have a BS of a SV you could only upgrade their WS. Thoughts?
say what you will, but the 5th ed characters where fun. Hell, Al'Rahem's ability to outflank an entire PLATOON was amazing, and would be even more so in the current itteration.
It gave the Guard mobility, the ability to move a force of up to 146 models on to the enemies flank - hell right into their deployment zone - and capture objectives/lay down some serious firepower, whilst scaring the living gak out of your opponent as an entire armies worth of models suddenly appeared on his flank.
Sure, platoons are crap, but with the ability to perform an amassed outflank they gained an interesting new lease of life.
The mental image of an army failing to notice a hundred foot tall machine with WMDs strapped to each arm and the earth shaking beneath its every foot step until it pops up right next to them on their flanks is just deeply hilarious to me, I imagine it going down like the introduction to Universe at War where these French troops not noticing the giant Hierarchy walker right behind them even when the thing could star in a Godzilla movie and the Hierarchy's already wiped out 90% of humanity in the space of a month so you'd think they'd be quite familiar with the nuke proof plasma spitting death walkers.
Shame he lost that power before they brought in the warlord.
flamingkillamajig wrote: It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.
That's not the Manager that's saying that. The higher ups at GW are saying that. Since they started AoS, you aren't allowed to play Warhammer Fantasy Battles or The 9th Age at all while in the GW stores. You have to play the current game they are selling (in this case, for Fantasy it is AoS).
Otto von Bludd wrote: I'm glad blobs are un-fluffy for IG because they are a terrible way to play. It is unfortunate that the way the orders system works basically forces you into blobbing if you want to use infantry effectively.
It would be easy enough for Orders to affect the ENTIRE PLATOON. Problem solved.
flamingkillamajig wrote: It was AoS or get out. That's basically what the GW manager said. He said if they don't want to play aos then we don't want you.
That's not the Manager that's saying that. The higher ups at GW are saying that. Since they started AoS, you aren't allowed to play Warhammer Fantasy Battles or The 9th Age at all while in the GW stores. You have to play the current game they are selling (in this case, for Fantasy it is AoS).
SG
I really don't see why people are so surprised or astonished by this. It's been like this for at least as long as I've been involved with gaming/aware of the existence of GW shops for gaming purposes.
Since they started AoS, you aren't allowed to play Warhammer Fantasy Battles or The 9th Age at all while in the GW stores.
The idea that a GW store would allow anyone to play 9A is ludicrous. It'd be like bringing McD's into a BK. What next, expecting GW to allow people to play KoW, or perhaps Warmahordes on their tables?
master of ordinance wrote: say what you will, but the 5th ed characters where fun. Hell, Al'Rahem's ability to outflank an entire PLATOON was amazing, and would be even more so in the current itteration.
It gave the Guard mobility, the ability to move a force of up to 146 models on to the enemies flank - hell right into their deployment zone - and capture objectives/lay down some serious firepower, whilst scaring the living gak out of your opponent as an entire armies worth of models suddenly appeared on his flank.
Sure, platoons are crap, but with the ability to perform an amassed outflank they gained an interesting new lease of life.
My sentiments exactly. I personally miss Marbo and the old Harker.
CplPunishment wrote: Ya'll can bash guard characters as being inherently worthless, but Sly Marbo was so good that I literally stopped taking him to keep friendships intact.
Sly Marbo was a cheap, pop-up Demo Charge. I never once saw anyone use him for anything else.
And 5th edition characters were great because they buffed guardsmen around them.
Chenkov and Al'Rahem had special orders. Now they're gone
Chenkov didn't have special Orders. He had a 12" Stubborn bubble, access to "Move! Move! Move" and "Get Back in the Fight" with the ability to issue two Orders a turn, and the ability to recycle Conscript Squads via "Send In the Next Wave"...which cost you 75 points on top of the Conscript Squad.
Al'Rahem granted mandatory Outflank and a "Shoot->Move D6" in a direction of your choice" Order.
Bastonne gave orders to his own squad. Now he's gone.
Yep. Because reasons. There was a lot of complaining that he shouldn't have been a Cadian, that he should have been a Mordian or some crap.
Harker gave his squad infiltrate and steath. Now he's a waste of 55pts.
Straken was less expensive, but suffered then as he does now from a lack of Eternal Warrior.
Yeah, the Catachans got the shaft. But not really a surprise given that this edition is rough on anything that relies on Cover saves because of Jink.
Creed could at one point outflank practically anything from your wildest dreams. Now he gets an extra random trait. MEH.
Blame the people who abused the hell out of him being able to Outflank "practically anything".
He has 2 Warlord traits instead of 1, allowing you to roll twice on the same table or once each on two different Warlord Traits tables. Plus he can issue 3 Orders a turn; with mandatory re-rolling of failed Orders. With the addition of the Cadian warlord trait tables, he became a hell of a lot more interesting...potentially.
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe special characters are the solution to our woes. I just think they should be useful, worth their points and focus on buffing guardsmen around them.
The point that people are trying to iterate here is that Guard characters, as they stand now, aren't Guard characters. They're a single dude thrown into a Command Squad, with Command Squads currently being used for the plethora of weapons they can take.
You have an interesting way of making every response sound like a rebuttal, even when your responses don't actually refute or disagree with what I am saying. Are you stuck in the mental mode of "Kanluwen and CplPunishment can't ever agree on anything ever"?
I like that Guard can blob up. Running big units isn't fluffy for some regiments, but I think it can be for others. However, I wish the current orders system didn't make blobbing by far the more effective choice.
I actually wish that we could go the other way too, and split squads into fire teams of 5 like we used to be able to in Codex: Cityfight and how Space Marines can in their current Codex. That way it would make sense to take a heavy weapon and special weapon in the same squad.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I like that Guard can blob up. Running big units isn't fluffy for some regiments, but I think it can be for others. However, I wish the current orders system didn't make blobbing by far the more effective choice.
I actually wish that we could go the other way too, and split squads into fire teams of 5 like we used to be able to in Codex: Cityfight and how Space Marines can in their current Codex. That way it would make sense to take a heavy weapon and special weapon in the same squad.
Agreed. Different regiments have different capabilities. Some send in waves of human blobs while others rely on highly-trained squads dropping in or mechanized infantry. Split squads would be an interesting idea. I'll have to dig up my Cityfight codex and check it out.
I'm pretty sure that was a special rule for Guard in Cityfight. I also think that it allowed us to split heavy weapons squads into three individual teams, but those teams were immobile and if they took a single wound the whole team counted as being killed (that was back when a heavy weapons team was considered two separate models). Cityfight did a lot of interesting stuff. They had rules about model placement and area terrain to make things easier to deal with in cluttered tables that I thought would make things a lot faster in normal 40k. (IIRC they did port some of the rules over to 3.5/4th ed.) I might be remembering some of that wrong, but getting to my old Cityfight book would require a long drive and breaking out the snowshoes.
Dakka Flakka Flame is the name of my Bad Moons Big Mek. I'm glad you like it. I feel a little like a poser though, as I've never actually listened to a Waka Flocka Flame song.
Just let us make IA13 style lists. I stopped playing guard codex when that came out and I've never regretted it. It solves most of our problems with making everything adjustable. Want elite drop units? Blobs of conscripts? Artillery? Tank hoard? Any combination of heros/villains in each squad... That's what the guard codex should look like.
Not just split squads in half, but allow dual heavy or special weapons in a squad. Would essentially be like blobbing 2 squads and then separating into 2 different squads. While we're at it, would be awesome if he officers had a coordinate fire order where they could trade move and shoot to give units their BS.
Weaselfish wrote: Not just split squads in half, but allow dual heavy or special weapons in a squad. Would essentially be like blobbing 2 squads and then separating into 2 different squads.
Maybe allow IG to merge 3 Heavy Weapons teams together? Ot take 3 Special Weapons in a squad? If only the IG could do that...
In the past I was in favor of allowing all infantry and heavy weapon squads from the same platoon to combine together. I figured that the only way to make it work would be to remove the option for the infantry squads to take heavy weapons, just so that things don't become mixed up. So a unit with 20 regular infantry models and 3 heavy weapons would be two infantry squads and a heavy weapon squad combined. Easy for your opponent to understand. These days I'm not so sure about this anymore.
In future though, the concept of troops might change. Right now we're usually limited to 6, which is why we have Infantry platoons in the first place, as a way around that. If it went down the AoS route however, there would be a minimum amount of troops required with no limit to the amount you can take. No limits would help us a lot. It would mean that we'd no longer need platoons as a way to deal with the FOC, and instead they could become proper formations.
So a PCS might be an HQ choice or something like that? Maybe one that doesn't take up a slot and is tied to the number of infantry squads you have, kind of like how commissars are limited by the number of command squads?
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: So a PCS might be an HQ choice or something like that? Maybe one that doesn't take up a slot and is tied to the number of infantry squads you have, kind of like how commissars are limited by the number of command squads?
Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Could make it possible to build an army around a single platoon.
I think this may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but since someone mentioned new orders that'd be awfully beneficial, couldn't there be some sort of Fix Bayonets! order that makes lasguns Assault 2 or something along those lines?
tbh heavy weapons squads aren't really work taking in the slightest. Too fragile, too expensive, bases make them a pain to place in cover or vantage points.
Wanna put a HWT on the roof of a building? Nahhhhh too big. Especially when using official GW scenery, which is a pain seeing most my games are at Warhammer world.
Also to the people saying GW don't allow warhammer fantasy played in their stores.... that's rubbish we see it all the time. It's akin to them banning people playing 3rd ed etc of 40k.
In future though, the concept of troops might change. Right now we're usually limited to 6, which is why we have Infantry platoons in the first place, as a way around that. If it went down the AoS route however, there would be a minimum amount of troops required with no limit to the amount you can take. No limits would help us a lot. It would mean that we'd no longer need platoons as a way to deal with the FOC, and instead they could become proper formations.
A vanila infantry platoon is already a formation you can take on its own in the montka book. You can also take an astra militarum tempestus platoon on its own as a formation.
The other day for grins I figured out what the maximum cost of a single infantry platoon could be. The number I came up with was 2791 points. This was taking the most expensive upgrades and options possible, including a lot of really silly things like giving krak grenades to the heavy weapon squads. It didn't include anything from outside the platoon, like commissars or priests.
I'm not familiar with the formation in the Mont'ka book, but it would be pretty funny to show up to a 2,500 point game with a single infantry platoon.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: The other day for grins I figured out what the maximum cost of a single infantry platoon could be. The number I came up with was 2791 points. This was taking the most expensive upgrades and options possible, including a lot of really silly things like giving krak grenades to the heavy weapon squads. It didn't include anything from outside the platoon, like commissars or priests.
I'm not familiar with the formation in the Mont'ka book, but it would be pretty funny to show up to a 2,500 point game with a single infantry platoon.
If you were going to max out a platoon it would be better to take the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon which unlike the vanila platoon formation actually doles out some buffs but with the restriction that you have to take at least 5 infantry squads, which is something you would be doing anyway if maxing it out.
I'm seriously tempted to make an 1850pt army based around the ESIC (the company not the platoon) just for the lulz. 165+ bodies and 1005 pts barebones rest of points on HWT and Special weapons. It might even do quite well against grav spam and any list that over invests in anti-tank.
I remember how effective Heavy Weapon teams were in the original Dawn Of War. We need them to be that.
To represent the sand bags and gun shields, how about +1 armor save against shooting attacks if they didn't move that turn. In a future AoS style system were cover increases your save, this would mean a 3+ save against shooting attacks when dug in. Call it entrenched positions or something.
Or, we could go back to the original ESIC, which simply required 3 IG Platoons (any size / config), with Vox, to gain entrenched deployment and the ability to call in Apocalypse Barrages.
An idea I had at work, promptly forgot about, and then remembered just now for IG. What if IG got mechs similar to the ones in Avatar? Biggest reason against it in my mind is that it kind of takes away from the IG relying on the average foot soldier to grind to victory and could easily be seen as a ripoff to Tau suits. They get high T suits and IG get weak-armored sentinels :(
Flanker wrote: What if IG got mechs similar to the ones in Avatar?
IG have them. Sentinels.
Something stronger than them. Sentinels don't hold a candle to similar units in other armies. Or give Sentinels a Toughness stat to make them more durable.
I actually think a scaled down Nemesis Dreadknight would make more sense for the IG than for SM. Space Marines are already powered up, why do they need a big mech suit?
Flanker wrote: What if IG got mechs similar to the ones in Avatar?
IG have them. Sentinels.
Something stronger than them.
Sentinels don't hold a candle to similar units in other armies.
Or give Sentinels a Toughness stat to make them more durable.
Avatar mechs are just fighting Ogryn-class threats. Closed-top Sentinels are a pretty good match. Armored Sentinel, as a far stretch.
Stronger? Fine, give the Sentinel a 2nd weapon or S8 DNCCW.
A Sentinels definitely don't deserve to be MCs or more durable. Cheaper, yes. But "good"? No, not really. Just not crap.
I'm fine with leaving Sentinels as light scout vehicles. Ogryns at T5 and 130 pts are hardly tough or worth it points wise. Why do SM get their already super armored dudes in bigger suits of armor (centurions) or GK get their guys in mecha-Streisand-Godzillas (Dreadknights) and the closest IG get are T5 5+ ogryns or 4+ bullgryns? Ogryns/Bullgryns are hardly survivable with those stats. New units in all armies across the board are moving towards high T units that can withstand more firepower. I'd see Avatar-style mechs as stronger than Sentinels and can deal more damage as well.
Flanker wrote: I'd see Avatar-style mechs as stronger than Sentinels and can deal more damage as well.
If Avatar Mechs were in 40k they would have weaker stats than a sentinel. AV10 open topped all round, 2HP (or 1 HP) armed with a heavy bolter only. 40k Sentinels are basically equivalent to Star Wars AS-AT.
Western Mech designs (that aren't kaiju sized) seem to either crib off of the AT-ST and the AT-At or the Power Loader from Aliens. The sentinel borrows from the AT-ST and the Dreadknight draws from the Power Loader.
The sentinel power loader is what happens when the AT-ST and Power Loader get really drunk one night and do something they both regret later on but they live in some crappy country that bans abortions and so the power loader gives birth to a child born of a shameful one night stand.
Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
Because they're not cannon fodder already
Save modifiers may actually lower casualties.
If Ap 5 weapons become -1 then Flak armour will actually have an effect on the game (Tiny sure, but you'd actually get to roll a save)
On the face of it the morale thing seems like it might be devastating, but we have no idea how morale mitigation abilities (Which Guard have a few) will function
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
Because they're not cannon fodder already
Save modifiers may actually lower casualties.
If Ap 5 weapons become -1 then Flak armour will actually have an effect on the game (Tiny sure, but you'd actually get to roll a save)
On the face of it the morale thing seems like it might be devastating, but we have no idea how morale mitigation abilities (Which Guard have a few) will function
Another thing, with save modifiers, the base save of models may indeed be lower as well. No longer will you choose either between your invulnerable save, armor save, or cover save, instead cover will affect the base save in a positive way. This may make it so that armies like space marines are weaker in the open, and actually make it so that they benefit from using cover. What this means is that if guardsmen are going to fire at units standing in the open, we may have a better shot at killing models than we had before.
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
Because they're not cannon fodder already
Save modifiers may actually lower casualties.
If Ap 5 weapons become -1 then Flak armour will actually have an effect on the game (Tiny sure, but you'd actually get to roll a save)
This is assuming that there will be some kind of correlation between AP values now and whatever armor modifiers exist. I wouldn't assume that.
Would not be surprised at all to see Lasguns get something like Arcane Bodkins, where once per game the Lasgunners crank up the power output to grant a -3 modifier to armor saves.
On the face of it the morale thing seems like it might be devastating, but we have no idea how morale mitigation abilities (Which Guard have a few) will function
Company or Platoon Standards granting +2 to Morale when in Cover, Medics granting the ability to mitigate it, yadda yadda yadda.
This is assuming that there will be some kind of correlation between AP values now and whatever armor modifiers exist. I wouldn't assume that.
.
Hence the if.
Its likely (not guaranteed) that the Ap will be used to determine modifiers after all they are suppose to represent the same thing after all.
Flanker wrote: An idea I had at work, promptly forgot about, and then remembered just now for IG. What if IG got mechs similar to the ones in Avatar? Biggest reason against it in my mind is that it kind of takes away from the IG relying on the average foot soldier to grind to victory and could easily be seen as a ripoff to Tau suits. They get high T suits and IG get weak-armored sentinels :(
Spoiler:
They have similar ones in one of the novels - I forget which one - the whole regiment is based around fairly steam punk world and the elite forces have pretty cool mini-mechs/ battlesuits.
This is assuming that there will be some kind of correlation between AP values now and whatever armor modifiers exist. I wouldn't assume that.
.
Hence the if.
Its likely (not guaranteed) that the Ap will be used to determine modifiers after all they are suppose to represent the same thing after all.
Are they really?
Because honestly, AP as it is now is an "all or nothing". A lot of the weapons that were close to AP5 in 8th(i.e. Strength 4 granting a -1 to saves) didn't get Rend values in AoS. They got left alone or other rules that did something(a second wound, d3 or d6 wounds, etc).
Boltguns, for example, I could see getting a statline where they do 2 Damage rather than 1 or a Rend value of -1.
IF they take this to as close to AoS as possible, it would also mean that you would see +1 to armor saves when in Cover or possibly +2/3.
So what if there's a Rend of -1 on a Boltgun when your Guard are in hard cover with +2 to their save? They'll be getting their 5+ save still.
This is assuming that there will be some kind of correlation between AP values now and whatever armor modifiers exist. I wouldn't assume that.
.
Hence the if.
Its likely (not guaranteed) that the Ap will be used to determine modifiers after all they are suppose to represent the same thing after all.
Are they really?
Because honestly, AP as it is now is an "all or nothing". A lot of the weapons that were close to AP5 in 8th(i.e. Strength 4 granting a -1 to saves) didn't get Rend values in AoS. They got left alone or other rules that did something(a second wound, d3 or d6 wounds, etc).
Boltguns, for example, I could see getting a statline where they do 2 Damage rather than 1 or a Rend value of -1.
IF they take this to as close to AoS as possible, it would also mean that you would see +1 to armor saves when in Cover or possibly +2/3.
So what if there's a Rend of -1 on a Boltgun when your Guard are in hard cover with +2 to their save? They'll be getting their 5+ save still.
maybe rend values won't work if the opposing unit is in cover. This may be where "ignores cover" come into play, where rend values still affect a unit even when it is in cover.
I have as good of an idea as anyone though, but I like my idea for now.
Future War Cultist wrote: I remember how effective Heavy Weapon teams were in the original Dawn Of War. We need them to be that.
To represent the sand bags and gun shields, how about +1 armor save against shooting attacks if they didn't move that turn. In a future AoS style system were cover increases your save, this would mean a 3+ save against shooting attacks when dug in. Call it entrenched positions or something.
Used to have something like this. Don't recall the details but the old 2-man heavy weapons had gun-shields and there was some benefit from them.
This is assuming that there will be some kind of correlation between AP values now and whatever armor modifiers exist. I wouldn't assume that.
.
Hence the if.
Its likely (not guaranteed) that the Ap will be used to determine modifiers after all they are suppose to represent the same thing after all.
Are they really?
Because honestly, AP as it is now is an "all or nothing". A lot of the weapons that were close to AP5 in 8th(i.e. Strength 4 granting a -1 to saves) didn't get Rend values in AoS. They got left alone or other rules that did something(a second wound, d3 or d6 wounds, etc).
Boltguns, for example, I could see getting a statline where they do 2 Damage rather than 1 or a Rend value of -1.
IF they take this to as close to AoS as possible, it would also mean that you would see +1 to armor saves when in Cover or possibly +2/3.
So what if there's a Rend of -1 on a Boltgun when your Guard are in hard cover with +2 to their save? They'll be getting their 5+ save still.
maybe rend values won't work if the opposing unit is in cover. This may be where "ignores cover" come into play, where rend values still affect a unit even when it is in cover.
I have as good of an idea as anyone though, but I like my idea for now.
A lot of the current "Ignores Cover" stuff is...weird...when you sit down and really look at it.
Things like flamers, barrage weapons, etc--that's one thing.
AA missiles? Flak cannons? Stuff like that is a result of them making Jink into a Cover Save.
I don't think we'll see an "Ignores Cover" in its current state, but rather something like this:
Flamers--Units affected by this weapon cannot claim a bonus to their armor save when in cover.
Barrage weapons--If impacting inside of the cover, the unit cannot claim a bonus to their armor save when in cover.
AA, Flak, etc would get to ignore the possible "To Hit" modifiers for flyers, jetbikes, etc.
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
I can see the new leadership rules stinging quite a bit.
I don't think Movement will hurt too badly since we'll probably be on the 'baseline' for it.
I am not looking forward to Formations 2.0 if they're going to require 150 Guardsmen.
Future War Cultist wrote: I remember how effective Heavy Weapon teams were in the original Dawn Of War. We need them to be that.
To represent the sand bags and gun shields, how about +1 armor save against shooting attacks if they didn't move that turn. In a future AoS style system were cover increases your save, this would mean a 3+ save against shooting attacks when dug in. Call it entrenched positions or something.
Used to have something like this. Don't recall the details but the old 2-man heavy weapons had gun-shields and there was some benefit from them.
Then bring it back in spirit!
With a 3+ save and little rend to go around, they'd be really tough to shift by shooting. Which would encourage people to assault them, and assault could use a boost.
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
I can see the new leadership rules stinging quite a bit.
I don't think Movement will hurt too badly since we'll probably be on the 'baseline' for it.
I am not looking forward to Formations 2.0 if they're going to require 150 Guardsmen.
I don't think Leadership will hurt too much. Horde Armies actually do well in AoS should they port over the +10 models = +1LD thing, with new LD stuff from Commissars and the like.
Sledgehammer wrote: Given the current revelations, do you guys think guardsmen will benefit from the new direction? Will lasguns become more powerful, or will guardsmen just be reduced to cannon fodder?
Might be a bit late, but what kind of revelations? (I couldn't follow the conversation pretty good )
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.
Knockagh wrote: Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.
Try reading any of the books before griping about this.
"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.
Knockagh wrote: Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.
Try reading any of the books before griping about this.
"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.
