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CplPunishment wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Grenadiers should not ever just be "Scions as Troops". That's a dummy option.

Edit note:
By "dummy option", I mean that it is something that disguises itself as an option but really isn't.

Grenadiers, as an option on Hardened Veterans, should give them access to Hellguns instead of their standard Lasguns. It gives you a more survivable, bit more "oomph" but without making it so that it's just "Scions become Troops".

Either way would work and would effectively provide the same result. I get the feeling that you feel compelled to contradict everything I say, even when we are more or less saying the same thing.

Strictly speaking, this comes to a fluff thing for me:
Scions are a specific unit. They're the Militarum Tempestus, an organization which is supposed to be set apart from the "main" Astra Militarum.
Grenadiers is the catch-all, fluff term for a regiment's Veterans outfitted with Carapace Armor and Hellguns. It's the term the Doctrines book used to allow Cadian players to run Kasrkin(which actually had a unit entry in C: Eye of Terror), Terrax players to run Stormtrooper Cadets, etc. It let you take 0-3 Stormtrooper Squads as Troops but they couldn't Deep Strike or Infiltrate, and they could not take Warrior Weapons.
It was also the term that was used by FW when they were going to do some special Stormtrooper models for the Elysians back with the "Raid on Kastorel-Novem" book.

That's why I refer to it as a "dummy" option. Look at all the artwork we've gotten for Cadians relatively recently. Notice that there are several Guardsmen outfitted in carapace armor with backpack mounted cabling linked to a lasgun. They're also specifically given visors or weirder shaped helmets compared to the 'standard' Guardsmen.

Example from the Imperial Knight book:

Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right? And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right? And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.

CplPunishment wrote:
Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right?

You mean this solution?

Grenadiers would be a doctrinal choice letting you take scions as troops
Scions would be slightly cheaper, regain access to scout and infiltrate, and their weapons would be 18" s3 ap3 assault 2
I would also steal future war cultist's ideas for scions.

No. They are not the same statements.

Your argument is that Scions get cheaper, regain access to Scout and Infiltrate(they never had Scout, they had Deep Strike) and have an ability to become Troops.

And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right?

Read the book. They've actually changed the fluff quite a bit. It used to be a single "Stormtrooper Regiment" that existed, with Stormtroopers parceled out as necessary. That is no longer the case. There are now multiple Scion Regiments, such as the Kappic Eagles(the powder blue ones in all the art).

Complain all you want about the name, but the fluff has changed. It is not simply "NuStorm Troopers".

And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.

Codex: Imperial Guard wrote:The regiment comes from a world where the best Imperial Guard recruits are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers.

The regiment may include 0-3 Storm Trooper squads as Troops. These Storm Troopers may not Deep Strike or Infiltrate

I'm fairly certain that there were White Dwarf articles at the time explaining why certain Doctrines were chosen, but I no longer have those WDs so can't confirm. They could also have been on the Black Gobbo webzine.

If you think I'm being argumentative for the sake of it, fine. Whatever. You just want the "Deathwing" approach("X unlocks Y as a Troops choice"), whereas I want the approach which should have flipping happened as soon as "Grenadiers"(Carapace Armor) became an option for Hardened Veteran Squads.

My approach still leaves a niche for the Scions. Yours just encourages people to take that Doctrine for Objective Secured Scions.

I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. And if hotshots became assault 3, that would make shotguns completely useless, which would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. Especially if hotshots became assault 3.

What makes Scions useful right now?

Deep Strike, Hotshot Volley Guns, and the fact that they come with their own Command Squads.

Notice how nothing I said added Deep Strike, Volley Guns, or a Hardened Veteran Command Squad?

Because that would make shotguns completely useless, and that would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.

Shotguns are terrible and always have been. They're only there for "rule of cool". Outside of the Deathwatch Shotguns, which only were really seeing use because of the "Swap Boltgun for Shotgun; swap Pistol for Boltgun" nonsense.

One terrible option is not a reason to restrict Hardened Veterans from getting kit that they always should have had. Grenadiers, as a concept, have been thoroughly wasted by people like Cruddace. We should have been getting Grenadier Bodyguards for Company Command Squads alongside of the whole Hellguns on Hardened Veterans thing.

Best solution to shotguns is to make them do more hits or higher damage up close imo. Or making them a melee weapon with bonuses over pistol +ccw.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In theory, IG should be able to out-MSU just about any other unit, where losing individual units is so inconsequential, you'd never want to blob them. That is why I say that IG core (Platoons, Chimeras, Russes) needs to be cheap, so you can afford to throw them away as part of "acceptable losses".

The problem then is the Kill Point meta, whereby your opponent can lose just about everything but still win because he killed more of your throw away units than the number of units that he deployed in the first place.

That's trivially easy to fix - just make bog standard IG Platoon Infantry Squads Insignificant (this unit does not provide Kill Points).

This allows IG to take boatloads of ObSec units that provide ZERO KPs when destroyed, allowing IG to play a proper MSU game without worrying about losing ordinary Guardsmen. IG can sacrifice huge numbers of IG Infantry Squads to achieve tactical Objectives.

Combined with my other proposed ability for IG to choose their casualties (keeping their weapons, and rolling command down), and the army would play pretty effectively. Sure, enemies can easily kill a lot of Guardsmen, but it mostly won't matter.

Recapping & consolidating

I've got plenty to say on this topic, but first a nap is in order. Toodles.

 Kanluwen wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Kanluwen, you basically just used my solution (which was stolen from the 4th edition grenadiers doctrine that you just cited) to contradict me, right?

You mean this solution?

Grenadiers would be a doctrinal choice letting you take scions as troops
Scions would be slightly cheaper, regain access to scout and infiltrate, and their weapons would be 18" s3 ap3 assault 2
I would also steal future war cultist's ideas for scions.

No. They are not the same statements.

Your argument is that Scions get cheaper, regain access to Scout and Infiltrate(they never had Scout, they had Deep Strike) and have an ability to become Troops.

And you do realize that "tempestus scions" are really just storm troopers with a copyright-able name right?

Read the book. They've actually changed the fluff quite a bit. It used to be a single "Stormtrooper Regiment" that existed, with Stormtroopers parceled out as necessary. That is no longer the case. There are now multiple Scion Regiments, such as the Kappic Eagles(the powder blue ones in all the art).

Complain all you want about the name, but the fluff has changed. It is not simply "NuStorm Troopers".

And that the grenadiers doctrine stated that they were guardsmen with *training* and equipment comparable to storm troopers (aka scions) NOT necessarily rugged battle-hardened survivors of multiple campaigns with better equipment. Go back and read that entry from the 4th ed codex one more time.

Codex: Imperial Guard wrote:The regiment comes from a world where the best Imperial Guard recruits are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers.

The regiment may include 0-3 Storm Trooper squads as Troops. These Storm Troopers may not Deep Strike or Infiltrate

I'm fairly certain that there were White Dwarf articles at the time explaining why certain Doctrines were chosen, but I no longer have those WDs so can't confirm. They could also have been on the Black Gobbo webzine.

If you think I'm being argumentative for the sake of it, fine. Whatever. You just want the "Deathwing" approach("X unlocks Y as a Troops choice"), whereas I want the approach which should have flipping happened as soon as "Grenadiers"(Carapace Armor) became an option for Hardened Veteran Squads.

My approach still leaves a niche for the Scions. Yours just encourages people to take that Doctrine for Objective Secured Scions.

Check your 5th edition codex if you still have it. Storm Troopers had three special operations choices they could fill, one being the following: "Reconnaissance: The Reconnaissance mission grants the SCOUTS and move through cover special rules." So, yes they did once have access to scout. Do they need it to be useful? Not necessarily, but some commanders might appreciate having the tactical flexibility of choosing between Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Scout and Outflank (not to mention the mounted options).

Your argument is that Veterans become quasi-storm troopers, with all the typical gear plus Objective Secured for being troops, but without the variety of insertion methods. My way did leave the door open for Troop Scions to keep their variety of insertion methods, but that is not necessarily the way it would *have* to be (although I see no reason why soldiers who receive equivalent training to scions wouldn't be trained in their insertion methods). Have you checked the statlines of vets and scions recently? They're basically exactly the same Ever since 5th they have been slowly merging into a redundancy, and you want to further that by giving Veterans Hotshots? If you want Elite soldiers with Objective secured, carapace and hotshots just take the scions with the proposed grenadiers doctrine. If you don't want to deepstrike/infiltrate/scout/outflank with them, don't. Just set them up normally. Is that really so much different from what you want?

I don't have the new Militarum Tempestus book, don't know anybody who does, don't plan on buying it (the rules for using them are in Codex:AM, as is a little bit of fluff, so why would I?) and the local store has a policy against reading the codex before buying it. But the point is that I don't need to read it to know that Scions are nothing but a re-tooling of Storm Troopers. They fill the same niche, they use the same wargear, and they are trained by the same Schola Progenium to fill the elite "Shock Assault role" (that is a direct Quote from the 5th and 6th edition codexes, which formally refer to them differently as "Storm Troopers" or "Tempestus Scions" yet describe them the same!). Every edition from at least 3rd until now has described the "rancour" regular guardsmen feel towards a specific Unit Entry, which was once called "Storm Troopers" and is now called "Tempestus Scions". Both Storm Troopers and Scions are Nicknamed "Glory Boys" and "Big Toy Soldiers". Tempestus is obviously taken from the root word "tempest" which literally means storm. They changed the name and fleshed out the fluff so that they could protect their Intellectual Property better. That is all. They are basically the same thing. And that whole "one regiment" thing was stupid and was a good (but ultimately unnecessary and irrelevant) change. According to the 4th ed codex, Grenadiers "[Come] from a world where the best recruits [note: not veterans] are combined into elite formations and receive superior training that is the equal of that provided to Storm Troopers." Grenadiers = Storm Troopers = Tempestus Scions. That doesn't mean Grenadiers *can't* be veterans (indeed many are); your belief that Grenadiers = Veterans comes from the 5th and 6th edition doctrine available for veterans, which makes it a valid interpretation. But it doesn't make mine invalid.

Actually, if you think about it, only in certain regiments would veterans Guardsmen take on the "shock assault role" typically assigned to storm troopers. Why? because Veterans exist in the perilous universe of Warhammer 40k for one reason and one reason only: they learned how to survive thanks to a keen sense of self-preservation that didn't cross the line into full-out desertion (and subsequent execution). Veterans have access to powerful close-range weaponry as well as powerful long range weaponry and traditionally have had the ability to infiltrate into an advantageous firing position. It wasn't until carapace mech-vets took center-stage that their previous role became shuffled into obscurity. I'm not saying there is only one way to use vets. I'm saying there is room for them to fill multiple niches, coming close even to scions without actually becoming scions with a different name.

Scions on the other hand, exist in their role because they are highly trained, brainwashed, well-equipped, nobles. You do not have to endure multiple campaigns to become a Scion, you just need the right bloodline and the right training. This is why I believe Scions/Storm Troopers should go back to being base Ld8. They also do not have the option to carry heavy weapons, which makes sense given their "shock assault role". Your proposed squad could feasibly take hotshots with a mortar team, which makes no sense. I don't get why anyone would do that, but do you see my point? Carapace Vets are durable close to long range fire support units. They take the Carapace because it is smart and helps them keep being veterans. Scions are shock assault troops that take carapace thinking it will save them when they get up-close-and-personal with Terrorgasm the Unholy. Silly Scions. They'll find out, while the Vets sit back and record the action.

The solution to the problem of Veteran/Scion battlefield overlap is eluding me at present. I will reflect on this more however. That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a doctrine system that effectively gives you the option of taking Tempestus Scions as troops. Whether it happens my way or your way, it will essentially be more or less the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm worried that giving vets access to hot shot lasguns really steps on the toes of Scions. And if hotshots became assault 3, that would make shotguns completely useless, which would be a shame. OK, shotguns are kinda useless at present but that's another fix.

Agreed on hotshots.

I have two solutions for shotguns to give them more of a purpose:

0pts per model, Range: 12" S3 AP6 Assault 2, Shred
-or-
1pt per model, Range 12" S4 AP6 Assault 2, Shred.

Alternatively, there could be a range-based strength difference as some have mentioned above:
1pt per model,
0-6" S5 AP5, Assault 1 (representing high power but narrow-spread at this range), Shred
6-12" S4 AP6, Assault 2, Shred
12-16" S3 AP-, Assault 2, Shred

Why a pistol range?
R18" S3 AP3 Assault 3. There you are, they are now worth their points on units that have them.

Lemme write this down. Give Scions:

- Scout.
- +1 Leadership (Leadership 9 Tempestors and Leadership 10 Primes?)
- the option for a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong
- the option for the squad leaders to take melta bombs.
- assault 3 hot-shot lasguns.
- a possible points decrease for them and the Taurox

There, we fixed Scions. Now we have an affordable elite unit with nasty close range firepower and the ability to deploy pretty much any way they want to. I mean, I'd take them!

I'm gonna try Ogyrns next!

I still maintain that the ordinary ogyrns should become more shooty based.

Do Ogryns have feel no pain? I can't remember since I haven't looked at them since 5th edition. If not they need it

 master of ordinance wrote:
Why a pistol range?
R18" S3 AP3 Assault 3. There you are, they are now worth their points on units that have them.

Those are statlines for shotguns that I wrote down.

 War Kitten wrote:
Do Ogryns have feel no pain? I can't remember since I haven't looked at them since 5th edition. If not they need it

Nope.
They have Stubborn, Very Bulky and HOW.
No FNP

Supposedly tough as heck but will be slaughtered like cattle from bolter fire.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Lemme write this down. Give Scions:

- Scout.
- +1 Leadership (Leadership 9 Tempestors and Leadership 10 Primes?)
- the option for a third special weapon if the squad is ten men strong
- the option for the squad leaders to take melta bombs.
- assault 3 hot-shot lasguns.
- a possible points decrease for them and the Taurox

There, we fixed Scions. Now we have an affordable elite unit with nasty close range firepower and the ability to deploy pretty much any way they want to. I mean, I'd take them!

I'm gonna try Ogyrns next!

I still maintain that the ordinary ogyrns should become more shooty based.

I was just thinking they needed a LD boost. They are the brainwashed shock troops of the IoM after all
I mostly agree with everything you say about scions, except assault 3 lasguns (assault 4 after FRFSRF) I think that is too much. Instead, the gun should be 18", assault 2 and tempestors should be able to issue one of three orders to their own squad, one of which would be FRFSRF. I think this would give them a good fire output without being brokenly good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jbz` wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Do Ogryns have feel no pain? I can't remember since I haven't looked at them since 5th edition. If not they need it

Nope.
They have Stubborn, Very Bulky and HOW.
No FNP

Supposedly tough as heck but will be slaughtered like cattle from bolter fire.

They should have stubborn, FNP, BULKY and HOW in my opinion. Possibly furious charge too.

For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.

Why not give them shred too?

So this is like the 5th thread that has almost reached 30 pages filled with great discussion & suggestions to fix the IG. What are the chances that GW is actually paying attention & will get it right this time?

Commissar Benny wrote:
What are the chances that GW is actually paying attention & will get it right this time?

Zero and Sub-Zero, same as the last time.

@ CplPunishment

You're absolutely right. 4 shots with hot-shots would be too much. But, I was also thinking that with a restructuring of orders and how units act, FRFSRF would become obsolete and would be ditched. For example, I proposed an increase in BS for infantry squads as they get larger, as a sort of built in FRFSRF. By giving hot shots 3 shots, they too will also have a sort of built in FRFSRF, leaving them to be ordered to FOMT or BID instead.

And I think FNP and a roll back to Bulky for Ogyrns is perfect. 6 in a chimera or Valkyrie is OK in my books. And how about a rule called 'Yes Boss Sir!', which lets them use an Officers or Commissars LD for pinning and morale checks. I was thinking of fearless but that's a step too far.

And I am adamant that ordinary Ogyrns need to remade as a shooty unit. If you just double the range of ripper guns, remaking them as machine guns, that would do it.

EDIT:

Points decreases!

55pts for a unit of scions, with further scions costing +10pts each. A unit of ten with 3 plasmas and a vox would be 155pts.
70pts for a Taurox Prime (ordinary ones are now 35) with all options being simple free swaps?
100pts for a unit of three Ogyrns, with further Ogyrns costing 30pts each.

Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.

CplPunishment wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.

Why not give them shred too?

Shred doesn't make a ton of sense on shotguns; buckshot would actually be less likely to wound anything with an armor save than a solid round. However turning shotguns into "Veteran Shotguns" and giving them some interesting special ammo to choose from (like Deathwatch Shotguns but not necessarily the same ammo) might be a good way to give them some more options, such as Shred. That might be a little too fun and interesting for GW to feel comfortable giving it to Guard instead of Space marines though.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
For the shotguns, maybe leave them as they are but you can fire over wacth at full BS.

Why not give them shred too?

Shred doesn't make a ton of sense on shotguns; buckshot would actually be less likely to wound anything with an armor save than a solid round. However turning shotguns into "Veteran Shotguns" and giving them some interesting special ammo to choose from (like Deathwatch Shotguns but not necessarily the same ammo) might be a good way to give them some more options, such as Shred. That might be a little too fun and interesting for GW to feel comfortable giving it to Guard instead of Space marines though.

Not bad ideas, really. As you said, it's too bad GW won't listen.

And buckshot having little effect on armored targets would be a rationale for shotguns being AP-. Shred makes perfect sense because the reroll to wound represents the increased likelihood of being hit in a vulnerable place by the spread of buckshot.

CplPunishment wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.

I'd be all over that. That's exactly what we need. I'd have several to carry a whole company of infantry around.

Also, Vet Squads. I don't really like how fixed the size of the squad is. What if it was 5-30? That would effect doctrines though.

CplPunishment wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?

The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.

In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,

Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]

By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?

The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.

In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,

Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]

By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.

Okay now we're being nitpicky ;-)
If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time. I'd have to double check that, but it sounds like a moot point.

Personally, I would load up a gorgon with a combined squad of 40 guardsmen plus at least one commissar and at least one priest.
With a Crassus, I would load a full squad of ogryns plus a couple ICs.

CplPunishment wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors?

The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.

In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,

Then, there are the Commissars, 0-2 SWS, 0-5 HWS attachments, and 0-1 Conscripts...
5 PCS + C [6]
5x 10 PIS + C [55]
2x 6 SWS [12]
5x 6 HWS [30]
1x 50 Conscripts [50]

By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.

Okay now we're being nitpicky ;-)
If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time. I'd have to double check that, but it sounds like a moot point.

Personally, I would load up a gorgon with a combined squad of 40 guardsmen plus at least one commissar and at least one priest.
With a Crassus, I would load a full squad of ogryns plus a couple ICs.

It's either part of the Super-Heavy Transport rules or of the Stormlord itself, but you can stuff in as many units as you like as long as you do not go over the transport capacity of 40. And it's got 20 firing points, so you can stuff a ton of HWTs inside.

CplPunishment wrote:
Wouldn't it be neat if we got a plastic gorgon/crassus kit plus a codex entry for them so that we could load up a full 50 man platoon (or 40 plus attached advisors), or a full 10 man Ogryn squad with advisors? I would buy one.

Assuming capacity for 50, I'd probably embark my entire normal allotment of infantry that aren't normally mechanized: a 40 man blob, attached Priest (and likely 1-2 Primaris Psykers if I can live with not using psychic prior to disembarking/getting wrecked), and a lascannon HWS.

What are the profiles of the Gorgon and Crassus? I don't tend to look into FW that much, but it does sound like it could form the core of pretty interesting lists, so I am tempted.

nekooni wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The StormLord is pretty close, carrying 30 IG. That's a PCS (5) + 2 PIS (10 ea) + advisors.

In C:IG, a single "full" Platoon is a LOT more than 50 models, as you'd have to account for the PCS,

By my count, that's 153 models, which wouldn't even fit in a trio of Gorgons.

If I recall correctly, you can't load more than one unit into a transport (exception being ICs) at one time.

It's either part of the Super-Heavy Transport rules or of the Stormlord itself, but you can stuff in as many units as you like as long as you do not go over the transport capacity of 40.

And it's got 20 firing points, so you can stuff a ton of HWTs inside.

Yeah, Superheavies can indeed carry multiple units, tho you can't split units across multiple Transports.

And yeah, as a mobile bunker, the Stormlord is kinda nuts for the amount of firing points it gives.

What does the future hold for IG? Well we just got our answer. Here is what GW thinks of the Imperial Guard:



You read that correctly. We are nothing more than militia. Forget Macharius's crusade which captured 1000 worlds in 7 years. Forget the fact that the imperium wouldn't exist without the Imperial Guard. Forget the fact that the Imperium exists to protect HUMANITY. Are space marines human? No. Is Guilliman human? No. They exist to protect HUMANITY. You know that thing that the Imperial Guard is? F them through right? What we need is MORE MARINES!!!



GW you want to know why space marines are your best selling army? BECAUSE 99% OF YOUR RELEASES ARE SPACE MARINES...

I seriously just need to walk away from this hobby for a few years. This sh*t isn't healthy.