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 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Dakka Flakka Flame

Do you mean a named character in the tank or the tank itself is a named character? Either way, I can support that.

Either way would be cool, but I was thinking more of the tank itself being a named character. Like, a tank that is hundreds of years old and has fought on dozens of planets. It might actually get wrecked have the crew die sometimes, but they always salvage what's left and rebuild it. (It could have a vehicle version of Eternal Warrior that means it never explodes.)

Of course, in the fluff they would probably give each crewmember a name. It could also give them opportunities to re-do the model and its equipment every couple of editions. The crew would die dramatically and the tank would be temporarily disabled with it's engines and/or turret destroyed, but they would rebuild it better than ever and assign it a new crew of highly skilled tankers.

They could do all sorts of cool stuff, like a Leman Russ Demolisher that has better movement and gives Zealot and Crusader to any friendly Guard units within 12".

I also have this funny picture in my head of during deployment plopping down a Baneblade and my opponent being all like "LOL, what is that supposed to do -- wait, is that Big Susie Taufether?" Then with tears in his eyes he scoops up his Riptide Wing and throws it right in the trash.

(Except, like I said, I don't normally play with named characters.)

Yeah, as someone who served in the Russian army I can tell you that crews routinely attach names and personalities to their tanks and tanks can gain reputations and legends of their own just the same as soldiers can. In the forty second millenium I see no reason why; in a setting where belief can make things true if enough people believe it hard enough to affect the warp and where older nearly always is better and super customs beat the tar out of factory standards; that you would not have legendary vehicles. Especially in the Imperium where machine worship is the second religion of humanity.

In all honesty the FW guard book brings some great potential for new units to the core codex.

Artillery units that can receive orders? Yes please.

A variety of tank commanders with different special rules? Yep

Vultures... twinlinked punisher cannons with vector strike? *drools*

Hell if they started making a plastic salamander kit I'd have a wet dream. They're generally much better than scout sentinels. You could make plenty of new plastic guard units without really worrying about them losing their theme.

Another idea I've been playing with is Company combinations. Realistically we're not thematically playing Guard armies on the table top as *Companies* more battalions. Have the ability to combine say an army with a core infantry or mechanised company, supported by support companies such as recon, tanks, engineer/artillery.

Akin to the Command Salamander, have recon elements reduce your opponents cover saves and allow artillery to reduce their scatter even without LOS.

Have guard heavy artillery being able to pin units that aren't even normally pinnable.

Have mechanised units that can hit hard and fast, maybe even reduce the cost of the chimera.

Give Russ commanders better orders, return the ability to fire all weapons at max BS and allow them to overwatch if they have a commander within "12. Add beast hunter shells to the core dex so they can deal with those pesky tau MC's.

Such things would actually allow you to thematically run a guard army like a modern army. The only unit's I would struggle to fix would be bog standard guardsmen, but I would make heavy weapon teams more durable. Tbh though with the right *support* elements grunts can shine.

 Flanker wrote:
I'm not sure named characters is the answer. IG won't have single characters who will stand up to the likes of Guilliman or Magnus.

At the scale 40k has grown to, named IG Characters aren't going to match Primarch-class threats.

What IG needs are friendly Knights and other big items that can drop those threats at range. Massed S(D+1) Deathstrike Missiles with Void warheads, for example.

SolarCross wrote:As much as I am worried for the future of the guard because I see GW turbo charging herohammer for the foreseeable future thus sidelining guard as the faction the least amenable to the herohammer approach, I don't see the guard at present as being in such a terrible place now though.

Wut

Some reasons why guard are okay if not great:

Lets hear it then

- No other faction has more super-heavy options (which goes for double if you include forgeworld).

Superheavies that vary from slightly overpriced for their stats (Baneblade variants), too bad (Machirus) utterly outrageous/laughable (Malcador).

- Guard have a very good variety of vehicles.

All of which are overpriced and heavily underperforming.

- Infantry plus attached characters plus orders allows for a lot of tactical variety.

An order system which is laughably bad and basically requires the commanding unit to leg hump the target for the officers yodelling. In the meantime the so-called buff characters range from overpriced 'boom-headshot' (commissars), 'Choppychoppy close quarters dude' (pries), and 'only 10 points cheaper than the far better SM equivalent' (sanctioned psyker).

- There are some pretty good and useful guard formations now which is something many factions still lack. The guard decurion is hard to pull off without an apocalypse sized budget of points but then that is probably how it should be.

Which ones? The one which requires you to bring a full platoon plus a Sentinel to gain an extra order or the one that requires multiple units of overpriced and very squishy psykers? Or any of the others? The only ones worth taking are the artillery one, the tank one and the super heavy one, and the latter only so that you can take a bound army with three baneblades in it.
The Guardcurion is fething awful. For the low low low price of around 1.5K you get an extra order and a bonus order per turn. It is diabolical. You have close to 300 models on the board and you get jack all for it, and none of them are very tough and without upgrades (good luck with only about 500-600 points left) you have no firepower outside of about 9 Multilasers.
In the meantime the Marines get to bringg free transports with 6 minimal strength squads, two HQ choices and a pair of Centurion/dev squads/tank squadrons. Oh and they get Obsec too. We dont even get Obsec in the Guardcurion.

SolarCross wrote:Guard can do hard cheddar if you don't mind being a massive dick.

Take the Emperor's Fury Formation with 3 Baneblade variants with a transport capacity. Fill up the SHV transport capacity with taxless enginseers + servitors from the imperial agents book and enjoy an army composed entirely of SHV vehicles that each regenerate 3HP per turn.

Taxless Enginseers? Wut? They still cost points you know and you can only bring a certain number per Inquisitor detachment. And those Baneblades are costing 500 points each - the formation works out at around 1545 points on average (45 for the one Enginseer you have to bring) and cannot hold objectives.

SolarCross wrote:

Something that could also be cool is for the Guard to have named "character" tanks. I actually like that idea more than most named characters.

Pask. Comes in three different varieties depending on the Russ variant chosen for him.

Pask is awful. Something better than him. A lot better.
The character needs to outperform the Marines Chronus by along mile.

@ JohnHwangDD

Funny you should mention that. I had thoughts of a future where the Knights and the Militarum Tempestus were combined into one faction, with the later being the Men-At-Arms of the former. Just a crazy thought really.

Meh, I'd rather the Knights get their own Men-at-arms, I really like the Special Forces side of the Scions.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Flanker wrote:
I'm not sure named characters is the answer. IG won't have single characters who will stand up to the likes of Guilliman or Magnus.

At the scale 40k has grown to, named IG Characters aren't going to match Primarch-class threats.

Oh please. Even back in ye olde times of nostalgia, IG characters weren't a match for other races.

What IG needs are friendly Knights and other big items that can drop those threats at range. Massed S(D+1) Deathstrike Missiles with Void warheads, for example.

Pah. What you need is the Wrath of Cadia relic laspistol.

Wounds on a 4+, and the target always falls on a roll of 3 or less when attempting to save it.

Ultramarines-Captain Sicarus(2nd Company Captain), Marneus Calgar(Chapter Master), Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius(Master of the Chaplaincy), Sergeant Telion(10th Company Veteran), Sergeant Chronus(tank commander). Ultramarines are the outlier in that they got loaded heavily with characters. Nobody really knows why, but people love to speculate that it was Ward's doing. Personally, I think it is that some of them were intended to be part of other Chapters initially but given the way the old Chapter Tactics worked(you could have characters present, Chapter Tactics applied to the army not individual characters) they likely just foisted them off as "counts as" opportunities.

Because it was originally Codex: ULTRAMARINES back in 2nd edition and was expanded later on to become the overall generic Space marine book rather then using a supplement alongside it. The only additions that are really new came in 5th were Telion and Chronus and they had lost Tyrannic War Veterans from 4th which became the generic Sternguard.

Bring back Bastonne!

He's my favorite guard character. Reminds me of myself.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ JohnHwangDD

Funny you should mention that. I had thoughts of a future where the Knights and the Militarum Tempestus were combined into one faction, with the later being the Men-At-Arms of the former. Just a crazy thought really.

I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Bring back Bastonne!

He's my favorite guard character. Reminds me of myself.

This. He was really useful (could issue orders to his own unit).

I feel there are disagreements between the fluff, the models and the actual gameplay.

They could release five new guard characters tomorrow in "Gathering Storm - Addendum, Sorry We Forgot About You" and I don't see how it would fix the army or make it dramatically more attractive to players. Same if there was a new series of books focusing on regular guardsmen.

As I see it the problem with Guard is the two fantasies (blob and massed armour) are both pretty bad on the table top.

The damage output of the game has increased massively while for Guard it has stayed fairly static. Same for Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Orks (outside of skewing for 1-2 options). Stuff is too expensive for its points. Things either need to be buffed or there needs to near faction wide reduction in points outside of maybe 1-2 options.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?

Hey, would you use a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut?

I was going all AoS again, but I was envisioning the Imperium fracturing and Imperial Knights ruling sectors with their own private armies in toe. But I'm getting distracted.

Tyel wrote:
As I see it the problem with Guard is the two fantasies (blob and massed armour) are both pretty bad on the table top.

The damage output of the game has increased massively while for Guard it has stayed fairly static. Same for Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Orks (outside of skewing for 1-2 options). Stuff is too expensive for its points. Things either need to be buffed or there needs to near faction wide reduction in points outside of maybe 1-2 options.

Guardsmen can't be buffed, because you can't overlap Storms (BS4 S3 T3 Sv4+) or Sisters (BS4 S3 T3 Sv3+), so you can only really drop their points. Problem is that not everybody can or wants to field 100s of Guardsmen. Even if a squad of 10 were cut to 30 pts with VS, at some point, you run out of deployment space.

Russes & Chimeras have a similar issue, where cutting points drives HUGE (expensive) model count and board space.

IG will get more value from strong Reserves and off-board Artillery.

Suppose IG could take Orbital Strikes, 1 per Platoon or Company. 125 pts for a S(D) Large Blast that arrives from Reserves with unlimited range from a Vox-equipped PCS spotter; 300 pts for Heavy 3 from a Vox-equipped CCS with a MOO. Now you can have IG players taking Platoons with 100s of points in firepower that takes up no space on the tabletop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sure there are Storm-equivalents in the Knight Households, just not sure if they would take the field as a regular thing. You'd think a giant robot would be sufficient, right?

Hey, would you use a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut?

Uh, how else would you do it?

@ JohnHwangDD

I don't know what I was thinking. A sledgehammer is the answer to everything.

Anywho, I've got an idea to improve orders. All orders should be available to all officers. None of that Senior Officer only nonsense. Remove the range limit as well because headsets are a things. Voxes are still a reroll. In addition, when an Officer issues an order to a unit that's part of a platoon, he can issue this order to as many units within the platoon as they want, testing on the highest leadership among them. All units must still shoot at the same target though, counting as one unit. So for example, an infantry platoon command squad could issue Bring It Down to itself plus an infantry squad with a vox caster and a load of lascannon teams from their platoon, testing at the Officer's Leadership with a reroll. It passes, and so they let fly at one MC with about 8 lascannons plus plasmas and lasguns etc. with Monster Hunter.

I'd take it a step further than orders.

Allow recon units to reduce enemy cover saves.

Allow heavy artillery to pin unpinnable units (aka basilisk and the like and not wyverns).

etc etc. Give extra utility to other units too. Hell would give more reason for people to use ratlings and scout sentinels, basilisks and so on.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
I'd take it a step further than orders.

Allow recon units to reduce enemy cover saves.

Allow heavy artillery to pin unpinnable units (aka basilisk and the like and not wyverns).

etc etc. Give extra utility to other units too. Hell would give more reason for people to use ratlings and scout sentinels, basilisks and so on.

How about, units hit by the heavy artillery type units move as if in difficult terrain and also have their assaults effected too. What's that marine formation called again, The Skyhammer Formation? Emperor's Wraith Artillery Companies should be our Skyhammers. Not just killing in droves but leaving the survivors dazed and confused.

Definitely agree that the Recon Units should be supporting everything else in the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, I'm stealing some Raven Guard rules here but here's an idea:

In the Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon, in addition to granting Move Through Cover to units close to them, the Scout Sentinels also allow a unit from the formation to Outflank with them without rolling for reserves. Kinda like the Pinion Battle Demi-Company.

 master of ordinance wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Bring back Bastonne!

He's my favorite guard character. Reminds me of myself.

This. He was really useful (could issue orders to his own unit).

Sure he was useful, but his fluff is really neat. Other special characters are really tough (like Harker) or skilled high ranking officers (like Creed), he's just a sergeant who's probably got PTSD.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Ultramarines-Captain Sicarus(2nd Company Captain), Marneus Calgar(Chapter Master), Chief Librarian Tigurius, Chaplain Cassius(Master of the Chaplaincy), Sergeant Telion(10th Company Veteran), Sergeant Chronus(tank commander). Ultramarines are the outlier in that they got loaded heavily with characters. Nobody really knows why, but people love to speculate that it was Ward's doing. Personally, I think it is that some of them were intended to be part of other Chapters initially but given the way the old Chapter Tactics worked(you could have characters present, Chapter Tactics applied to the army not individual characters) they likely just foisted them off as "counts as" opportunities.

Because it was originally Codex: ULTRAMARINES back in 2nd edition and was expanded later on to become the overall generic Space marine book rather then using a supplement alongside it. The only additions that are really new came in 5th were Telion and Chronus and they had lost Tyrannic War Veterans from 4th which became the generic Sternguard.

Yeah, this.

Though the characters were different. It was Marneus, Invictus, Tigurius, Cassius and Ancient Helveticus.

Other chapters were added to the codex in 3rd Ed, when it just became the generic SM codex. (which it really was, prior. Other "codex" chapters weren't very fleshed out in 2nd Ed. )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Yeah, as someone who served in the Russian army I can tell you that crews routinely attach names and personalities to their tanks . . .

I would have thought it was the other way around in Russia. . . .

 Flanker wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Yeah Imperial Guard formations as they stand are pretty abominably bad or resoundingly mediocre outside of a few stand outs.

The discussion about named characters was more about how the Imperial Guard's characters are ultimately; very rarely allowed to be as important as their counterparts in the "posterboy" armies to the overall setting. It's a symptom of how the Imperial Guard has essentially become the NPC faction of the Imperium. They're almost background elements while the Inquisition, Space Marines, and Mechanicus are the ones who bask in the limelight.

Right, but at the end of the day, they're still humans. And IG generals won't be on the battlefield. As one of my friends who's an infantry officer said "Once you move past Captain and you use your weapon, something is wrong." Commanders are back at high command making large operational and strategic decisions like moving entire regiments and divisions. Sadly, whenever Inquisitors or SM commanders show up, IG pretty much has to say "omg my lords, do whatever you want. We are at your disposal." I think some IG characters who are mid-level commanders (from Captains to Colonels) who give their armies bonuses is a step in the right direction. It's not making them incredible CC machines, but using their intellect to outwit the enemy. Colonel Johnson is a strict drillmaster so infantry units within 18" of him reroll 1s on shooting. Captain Snuffy has been revolutionizing air assault; so he has a formation where Valkyries are cheaper and add +1 to reserve rolls. IG characters could be force multipliers, not gargantuan killing machines.

You nailed exactly what Guard special characters should be. Take a look at Guilliman's army wide bonuses to represent how great a commander he is. Guard special characters should follow a similar format yet remain str3 t3 etc. Make them excellent COMMANDERS.

 SolarCross wrote:
Guard can do hard cheddar if you don't mind being a massive dick.

Take the Emperor's Fury Formation with 3 Baneblade variants with a transport capacity. Fill up the SHV transport capacity with taxless enginseers + servitors from the imperial agents book and enjoy an army composed entirely of SHV vehicles that each regenerate 3HP per turn.

Funny you should mention that, I recently attempted a similar tactic, loading up a Stormlord with Enginseers and servitors so that is autorepaired 3 hullpoints per turn. Cheese right? You know what happened? It was taken from 9 hullpoints to 0 hullpoints with a single attack in a single turn by a single D weapon wielded by a model half the Stormlord's point cost.

But that can be done without giving them expensive fragile single mini units like you describe. Commissars, priests, captains, etc need to be better for their points and effect the army more efficiently... but we don't necessarily need Colonel Badass McAwesomepants the Slayer of Billions.

I mostly agree with the points made on special characters, though I think Priests are already amazing for 25 points, and Primaris Psyker's can be effective force multipliers, since the Ignores Cover and 4+ invul divination powers are very useful.

Our killiest named character I would say is Straken, followed by Yarrick, who I have to admit is quite good on paper, minus a couple flaws. Those flaws being still too expensive, only I3, few ablative wounds in a 5 man unit that only LoS on a 4+, and a total lack of Eternal Warrior, which above all screws him the most, as T4/average unit T3 is fairly easy to inflict ID. Not awful, but still not great, either. Oh well, for me he's had some limelight vs Necrons, once.

Edit: the point I was trying to make with that which I promptly forgot to make was that even with a stat line quite extreme for a human, our CC-oriented characters still are by no means top-tier CC units, and it'd be pointless to try to go in that direction. Unit buffing characters/better orders characters and the like could be successful and even competitive, however. Like Priests or Regimental Advisors, just a little better for close to the same cost would be optimal.

Guard revolves around AV targets and flimsy 1W models. Their weapons are classic and linear. Players are exploiting weapons that don't target stat values, as well as units that don't have many accessible counters.

40k needs a rework so Lascannons, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, missiles and high-strength blasts are more relevant. Do that and half of the IG's problems are over.

Exactly. Which is why you have to fix 40k itself before you can fix any army in it.

My suggested codex changes to make AM more competitive:
Rules changes:
Orders go off auto within 12" or with vox (otherwise too far away to issue)

PCS, CCS can blob with ANY platoon squads

Can order from/to inside chimera/taurox

Dedicated transports count as part of unit (fire/move/ECT with orders)

World's without number: can elect to swap transport versions with any version in current IOM codex (must pay the price from that codex)

Weight of fire: any model/ unit hit with lasguns suffers the following penalties for the rest of the turn (once wounds are scored):
Hit by 15 shots - minus 1 AC (including invulnerable)
Hit by 20 shots - minus 1 T
Hit by 30 shots - no cover saves of any kind

Russes gain back lumbering and split fire on main gun (sponsons shoot before ordinance, or snap fire). Squad Russes must target same unit with main guns (unless split fire order)

HW teams get t5

Armory:
2 points: flamer, sniper, bolter, lascarbine
5 points: melta, plasma, HBolter, GLauncher, sbolter, HS lasgun, mortar
10 points: autocannon, Mlauncher (w/skyfire rounds), power weapon, plasma pistol, hflamer, HS volley
15 points: lascannon, power fist, melta bomb

Following count as heavy: HBolter, mortar, autocannon, mlauncher, lascannon, HS volley

Lascarbine: S3 AP5, assault 2 18"
HS Lasgun: S4 AP3, rapid fire, 24"
HS volley: S5 AP3, Salvo 2/4, 24"

Mortar is now heavy 2

Vehicle upgrades stay the same plus:
10 points: veteran crew (+ 1 bs)
15 points Bird hunters (can elect to skyfire all weapons for a turn), tank hunter (2 dice for pen or damage) or monster hunter (wounds do D3 on MC)

HQ
60 CCS base - medic, vox, & 4 vets
commander always has carapace
lasguns, pistols, and CCW all around
5 points for banner (stubborn within 12")
Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list

All officers are 15 points

Commissars, priest get a 5 point reduction

Primaris is now 40 points

30 points for techpriest AND one servitor (upgrades stay the same for servitors)

20 Tank commander stays same, can order up to 2 tank units to gain split fire, twin linked, bird/tank/monster hunter
OR
coordinate fire (give BS to all tanks within 12" for the turn)

30 tank commissar , 3 orders, 5 BS, same as above

Psykers are 10 points, can't take gear

Troops:
30 PCS, commander 4 guardsmen, vox
Upgrades: 10 pts for carapace, 10 for cammo cloaks, all can take from list
Can take Chimera, taurox, valkerie

50 infantry squad, lasguns
HS Lasgun, Heavy bolter, vox, frag grenades
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory
Upgrades: HS Lasgun and/or HBolter to any other 5 point from list free, any from 10 point for 5
5 points for Krak grenades
Can take Chimera, valkerie

55 infantry combat squad, lascarbines, laspistols, CCW
2 Flamer, heavy flamer
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory
Flamers can swap for non heavies from list
5 points for Krak grenades
Can take Taurox, valkerie

50 Heavy weapon squad, 3 heavy bolters/mortars
Upgrade to AC, ML for 5 points, LC for 10

40 special weapon squad Sergeant and 5 guardsmen with HS lasguns
Sergeant and 2 others can take any non heavy in armory as an upgrade
Can take valkerie

Conscripts stay the same

60 Veterans take either lasguns or lascarbines.
CCW, laspistols, frag and Krak grenades
Either 3 hotshot lasguns, 3 heavy flamers
All 3 can swap for any weapon in the armory (heavy weapons are held alone)
Sergeant can swap for any non heavy
Grenadiers and sentries stay the same, demo is 20 points
Can take chimera, Taurox or valkerie

Transports:
55 chimera multilaser and HBolter
12/11/10
Can swap either for HBolter, hflamer
Can take Autocannon, TL HBolter for 5 points

40 Taurox same as before

100 Valkerie transport
Lascannon for 5, rocket pods for 5, bolters for 10

Eletes:
100 Ogryns: add fnp 5+, 30 per model
Ripper gun: S5 AP5 18" assault 3 (can be used in assault)
Can take chimera

115 Bullgryns: add fnp 5+, 35 per model,can ADD mail and shield for 15
Can add Chimera

50 Wyrdvanes: 10 per extra, power level 2 if 10 models
Ratlings: change to move-fire-move, can squad up or start game attached to units (1 per)
Tempests platoon removed (have their own army)

30 Scout sentinel, multilaser
Same upgrades,
5 points swap for HS Volleygun
10 points, add power claw

35 armored sentinel (see above)

50 Armored Scout Cavalry
(Rough riders on cav/bikes/ECT)
Add T4, jink, Lasgun carbines, 10 points per model
2 riders can replace carbine with non heavy from armory
Sergeant can take any non heavy from armory

Hellhound chassis get 25 point reductions and 11 rear armor

150 Vendetta, same with sponsors only costing 10

Leman Russ all get free pintle stubber, sponsons 10 points cheaper, no more gets hot on plasma, add HS volley sponson for 15 points
Pintle mounts grant TL if they hit first
Exterminators get rending,
Vanquishers become SD on a 5 or 6 to hit

60 Hydra
100 basilisk
60 wyvern
150 manticore
150 Deathstike (now SD blast)

Thoughts?

IMO, IG need to get away from the idea of blobbing. While it was situationally effective for a while, it's an awful way to play the army.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, IG need to get away from the idea of blobbing. While it was situationally effective for a while, it's an awful way to play the army.

Agreed. A 10 man veteran squad can take a long time itself just to fire. You have orders to pass, then you have to shoot your lasguns, then you have to shoot your bolter, then you shoot your special weapons (sometimes you even have 2 types). It is tedious and can be confusing for your opponent.

I'd be very surprised if the Infantry Platoon as it works now makes it into 8th. I like the 'fluffiness' of it and as a mechanic I quite like it, but I just don't see them keeping it for some reason. Call it a gut feeling.

The IG Platoon is fine. There's nothing inherently wrong IG having plenty of Guardsmen in their Troops choice. Transported Combat Squadded SM are 3 units per Troops choice.

The problem with the IG Platoon is that it lacks impact in proportion to its numbers and dollar cost. If I spend an IKT's sum on Guardmen, then the net performance level should be similar.