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Auxiliaries only need a few sensible, obvious buffs to become somewhat (or dare I say very?) useful. Then it's back to the drawing board for the rest of the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we've been through Auxiliaries. No sense dredging that discussion back up.

OK, back to the regular infantry.

I said before that I'd have a system were infantry squads get +1 BS for each block of 10 models above 20 they have (+1 for 20+, +2 for 30+ and +3 for 40+). Well, thinking it over...what if it was +1 WS too? All this will do is help them hit their targets in cc whilst slightly reducing their opponents hits on them. It won't make them into horrible monsters in cc. Although to be honest, I'd prefer an AOS style system were they increase their to hit rolls without decreasing their opponents in turn. What I'm trying to do is create a system were small infantry squads are weak and useless in small numbers but when they get together and coordinate their actions they're a force to be reckoned with. This whole idea works under the assumption that FRFSRF is declared redundant. It's my replacement for it.

Speaking of orders. If they are made automatic, voxes should go to extending range right?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
OK, back to the regular infantry.

I said before that I'd have a system were infantry squads get +1 BS for each block of 10 models above 20 they have (+1 for 20+, +2 for 30+ and +3 for 40+). Well, thinking it over...what if it was +1 WS too? All this will do is help them hit their targets in cc whilst slightly reducing their opponents hits on them. It won't make them into horrible monsters in cc. Although to be honest, I'd prefer an AOS style system were they increase their to hit rolls without decreasing their opponents in turn. What I'm trying to do is create a system were small infantry squads are weak and useless in small numbers but when they get together and coordinate their actions they're a force to be reckoned with. This whole idea works under the assumption that FRFSRF is declared redundant. It's my replacement for it.

Speaking of orders. If they are made automatic, voxes should go to extending range right?

If you want a buff for blobbing up that's fine (even if I personally think it's unnecessary), but I don't think buffing BS and WS makes sense. The basic game balance mechanic is this: cheap (and therefore plentiful) troops have low statlines, while expensive (and therefore less numerous) units have better statlines. You are buffing statlines as a reward for having a ton of cheap infantry. It is therefore unbalanced. FRFSRF is better anyway because you can dole out more potential wounds. Yes, there is the risk that a lot won't hit or wound, but what are you expecting from lasgunners?
One thing blob platoons would benefit from would be a transport big enough for them. Similar to the gorgon and crassus but different: it would be one kit for both variants and the gorgon-esque one would have a transport cap of 60.

Infantry need acces to doctrines back and orders to remain with some tweaks in my opinion. I don't know about auto passing them. At most I would remove the bonus/penalty for double 1s/double 6s. I would bring back Vet sergeants ant their squad would reroll orders. Vox Casters would allow you to transmit an order to any unit on the table outside of command range. Those within command range use the officer's LD to pass.

As above, I say that PIS don't give KPs, and IG can choose the wounds, so somebody always leads, somebody always grabs the weapon. I think that fixes Platoons.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As above, I say that PIS don't give KPs, and IG can choose the wounds, so somebody always leads, somebody always grabs the weapon. I think that fixes Platoons.

Disagree. If anything, killpoints should be awarded relative to a unit's points value.
As far as wound allocation, it sucks but it's consistent. The only races who dont suffer also don't have special/heavy weapons specialists and/or characters. If current wound allocation rules are inconvenient for guard, they must be more so for armies that dont have as many "expendables". If it needs yo be changed, it should happen universally IMO.

No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.

And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.

The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?

If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.

And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.

As does practically every other army. Space Marines, at the very least are all trained in the use of missile launchers and heavy bolter, and the Codex states that weapons are passed around through the squad.

Why are IG exempt?

The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules?

Isn't that just a slippery slope, I mean "It's not like Eldar are balanced, so why should Orks be?"

FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports...

I wasn't aware that a CAD of Black Templars got free Land Raiders. Unless there's something wrong...

But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?

Not, it's inconsistent. Why is a guardsman able to pick up the fallen meltagun and yet the Space Marine or Scion can't do exactly the same?

If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.

Seems like that is guided a little by salt. I mean, it's along the same lines of saying "If we're making universal changes, let's remove models with the Monstrous Creature and Gargantuan Creature rules."

Removal isn't fit. Reworking it, and the morale system as a whole, would be better.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.

And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.

The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?

If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.

I agree with you that a platoon is harvest time for your opponent when it comes to kill points. I agree that something needs to change, I simply disagree with your approach because it takes the opposite extreme of making guard platoon's KP value worth infinitely less than their points value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What needs to happen is a total re-imagining of the kp system

Perhaps KPs could be dependent upon the FOC. Since a platoon is only one troops choice, it's only worth one 1KP. Same for DTs.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Perhaps KPs could be dependent upon the FOC. Since a platoon is only one troops choice, it's only worth one 1KP. Same for DTs.

Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

CplPunishment wrote:
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?

CplPunishment wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?

Yes...no...maybe?

Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?

Yes...no...maybe?

Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.

I could see that being abused. People will be on the honor system keeping track of which squad was part of which platoon. People will hide one squad out of sight. Opponents will kill 120+ guardsmen out of full strength platoons and be denied even a single killpoint because there is still one squad left. Sounds a bit broken. Broken in our favor, but still broken.

Yeah, it would be horribly broken.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:
Not a bad idea, but still doesn't adress the problem of a minimum barebones platoon being 25 models, 3 squads and the same number of kill points as three full-strength tactical marine squads. Blobbing IG and combat squads of SM alter things, but that shouldn't always have to be the norm for IG to have a chance.

I said that one platoon could be worth one KP. The whole thing, the command squad, all the other squads and any DTs.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. One question, however: does the entire platoon need to be wiped out for the kp to be awarded?

Yes...no...maybe?

Actually feth it, yes. You have to destroy the entire platoon to earn the KP.

Why not just the command squad? Officers are very valuable, but not grunts. You can kill guard squads for no KP, but if you kill the command squad you gain one KP. Or better, you gain 1 kill point for destroying the command squad and another if you destroy the entire platoon. This way, you have a certain form of balance.

epronovost wrote:
Why not just the command squad? Officers are very valuable, but not grunts. You can kill guard squads for no KP, but if you kill the command squad you gain one KP. Or better, you gain 1 kill point for destroying the command squad and another if you destroy the entire platoon. This way, you have a certain form of balance.

That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.

I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.

Out of interest, who's the other person found here who doesn't hate Praetorians?

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Out of interest, who's the other person found here who doesn't hate Praetorians?

Me. I love Praetorians. I think with some updating they'd be awesome to have.

 Future War Cultist wrote:


That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.

I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.

If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.

Returning to the practice of Victory points being equal to the cost of the unit seems to be the easiest and most sensible thing to do to solve KP missions issue with cheap horde armies.

epronovost wrote:
If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.

Good point. If orders were still limited to 12" this might be alright.

But going back to points would be the best solution.

Why not assign a KP value next to the points cost of a unit?

In fact, you could even assign points costs and KP values to formations.

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Out of interest, who's the other person found here who doesn't hate Praetorians?

If they released them in plastic, I'd buy a squad.

What I think they should do with praetorians is make their lasguns much more powerful than the standard, but lower their rate of fire. This would kind of mimic how old breach load rifles worked, and justify block tactics.

CplPunishment wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, because the IG PIS will never have a kill difficulty commensurate with their points cost. IG PIS are the very definition of cannon fodder in 40k. So they are literally worthless from a KP perspective.

And the wound allocation shouldn't be consistent if it makes zero sense. IG are regular troops, which are all trained to use all of their unit's equipment, with a continuous heirarchy of command.

The idea that IG have to follow all of the gak rules is fething stupid. It's not like SM follow all of the rules that'd feth them, so why should IG follow those rules? FFS, SM don't even pay for their Transports... But it's not right that IG can't be zero KP cannon fodder? It's not "fair" that another IG Trooper automatically assumes command? It's not consistent that another IG Guardsman picks up the Meltagun? That's somehow "broken" or wrong when we're wishlisting?

If we're making universal changes, let's start by removing Fearless and ATSKNF.

I agree with you that a platoon is harvest time for your opponent when it comes to kill points. I agree that something needs to change, I simply disagree with your approach because it takes the opposite extreme of making guard platoon's KP value worth infinitely less than their points value.

What needs to happen is a total re-imagining of the kp system

All I know is that IG need "free" rules that are at least as powerful as ATSKNF and Gladius. How, specifically it gets done, I don't particularly care. I suggest those fixes because they address the biggest problems with IG, turning what is currently a huge liablity into something that is functional.

If you want to require the opponent to destroy the ENTIRE Platoon to get their 1 KP, I'm OK with that.

epronovost wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


That's better, but I think people could still abuse the hell out of it by hiding the Command Squad.

I'm starting to think that the whole concept of platoons and the FOC needs rethinking.

If they do so it can't give orders as easily and thus loose an important force multiplier (in addition to the Special Weapons they carry). Furthermore, a five man squad like a Command Squad is much easier to destroy than a ten men squad. Infiltrator, Deep Striking units or ambushing units like Lictors, Assassins and others would be ideal for hunting down those "hiding" Command Squad.

Returning to the practice of Victory points being equal to the cost of the unit seems to be the easiest and most sensible thing to do to solve KP missions issue with cheap horde armies.

I agree with VP cost being unit cost. It's the only way that makes sense for horde and elite armies alike.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Out of interest, who's the other person found here who doesn't hate Praetorians?

Me. I love Praetorians. I think with some updating they'd be awesome to have.

I also absolutely love Praetorians. Just ordered 73 of the guys!

Praetorians are awesome, there is a guy that plays at my FLGS that has a massive army of them!

 gmaleron wrote:
Praetorians are awesome, there is a guy that plays at my FLGS that has a massive army of them!

I don't like them, but I find it great that you do. To bad you cant buy them from their legacy line like for the Mordian, Tallarns and cie. Personnaly I am a Vostroyan fan. I think they have the best bland of historical and gthich Science-Fiction look. They would make for excellent new Astra Millitarum flagship now that Cadia is destroyed.

There are still plenty of Cadians you know. They're kinda sorta spread out throughout the galaxy