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If you put a bolt pistol to my head and made me vote on a new IG line, I'd say Vostroyians. epronovost is right. They're the perfect blend of historical and sci fi.

Death Korps of krieg, if only so I can get them without dropping thousands of pounds.

I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.

If I had to pick one aside from them, Death Korps, Armageddon Steel Legion or Praetorians/Mordians would be cool.

You forgot the current Cadian plastic line - Gorilla Division.

If they do anything "new" in plastic, I want a whole new range.
Not Death Korps. Not Cadians. Not Vostroyans. None of anything that exists now.

Something all new.

Wowowowow, wait a minute - are you expecting GW to do something creative here?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.

I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.

I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wowowowow, wait a minute - are you expecting GW to do something creative here?

You've seen the Tempestus models, right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.

I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.

I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.

I'd still say animal cavalry could exist, but have it have the same profile as mech cavalry, so that, aside from models, Cadians would be able to take to the field on motorcycles of some kind and still be classed as cavalry.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'd still say Cadians. If you forced me to choose a new Regiment, it'd have to be one which has abilities in every aspect of the Imperial Guard - airborne, artillery, mechanised, line infantry, tanks, scouting, cavalry etc etc. That's why Cadians are the best - they have possibility for each.

I would agree wholeheartedly, except for the cavalry bit. At least in the "cavalry" cavalry sense. Cavalry is a term used today for armored units and I personally feel it would work best in that regards.

I'd be totally down for armored cars, aka Salamander Scout Vehicles, being added in as a "light" cavalry compared to the "heavy" cavalry of Leman Russes and the tank variants.

I'd still say animal cavalry could exist, but have it have the same profile as mech cavalry, so that, aside from models, Cadians would be able to take to the field on motorcycles of some kind and still be classed as cavalry.

I'd be okay with that, if it weren't always going to be the fact that as soon as animal cavalry gets in there you get the dumb "THEY NEED TO BE A CC!" attitude that people have.

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

I'm totally biased in that I want my Scanner Network over yet more half-cocked attempts at CC units for Guard, but eh. There's a reason I forked out the cash for those things from FW back in the day. They were something new and interesting and different in that they weren't an "OMG it's gonna kill everything!" thing. It had an effect that basically only came into play for the start of the match and it felt fluffy for an army that is known for employing static defenses.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If they do anything "new" in plastic, I want a whole new range.
Not Death Korps. Not Cadians. Not Vostroyans. None of anything that exists now.

Something all new.

I could go for that as long as they don't have dopey-looking helmets like the 4th ed cadian sculpts.

What about Bodie style helmets?

I remember people combining Bretonian Men-At-Arms with IG parts. The wide brimmed helmets looked good imo.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.

 Flanker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.

It represents the chaos and miscommunication that is all too common in war. Give vox casters unlimited order range but keep the ld roll to represent the very real chance that orders don't make it through. IG are not SM and shouldn't be expected to be on par with them. Even the mostelite humans pale next to the super human space marines. This is coming from a guy who loves the guard by the way. I just think we should stay a little grounded in our expectations for what IG should become.

The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

Like Commissar Lords having higher BS and WS than SM's, Harker being able to fire his heavy bolter on the move and Sisters of Silence being faster than Marines. The only one that would be near impossible to match is toughness (but Kriegsmen get something to make them T4, I think, been a while since I checked what their magical banners did)

 Flanker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.

So we get some orders that last only one turn and others that almost singlehandedly break the codex?

Nah. Doctrina Imperatives feel like the right way to go. Have varying "levels" to an Order type(a shooting with Ignores Cover as a penultimate Order, shooting with -1 and -2 to cover as the lesser variations) and you can add some kind of downside to it as well.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

Like Commissar Lords having higher BS and WS than SM's, Harker being able to fire his heavy bolter on the move and Sisters of Silence being faster than Marines. The only one that would be near impossible to match is toughness (but Kriegsmen get something to make them T4, I think, been a while since I checked what their magical banners did)

Well, short of the inability to feel fear, there's nothing put into a marine's physiology that makes them inherently more skillful fighters than a normal human. They're just afforded some of the best training in the Imperium, along with the longevity that their enhanced physiology allows for. But the Imperium is home to plenty of methods of rejuvination treatments. And a the training regimens of the marines, while notable, what with being warrior monks, aren't necessarily the absolute top of the line, nor do they match for actual combat experience. This isn't even mentioning the augmentations and training regimens available to more extreme sections of the Imperium, such as the Officio Assasinorium.

Point is, when it comes down to actual combat skill, there's nothing that makes a space marine inherently notable.

Well, short of the inability to feel fear, there's nothing put into a marine's physiology that makes them inherently more skillful fighters than a normal human.

It would depend upon how they are recruited. Some come into the chapter by dueling others to the fighting, living and fighting in death worlds, some come into the space marine chapter by actually fighting and dealing with Space Marines in one on one combat.

To put it bluntly to even get to the point of becoming a space marine can be a life or death challenge that's entirely reliant upon your skill. So many will come into the Space Marines with skill.

Not to say that Guardsman aren't the same given that they tend to be plucked from the best of the best of PDF forces, but it tends to be that Space Marines pluck from an even younger age that have to do some amazing things.

CplPunishment wrote:

 Flanker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.

It represents the chaos and miscommunication that is all too common in war. Give vox casters unlimited order range but keep the ld roll to represent the very real chance that orders don't make it through. IG are not SM and shouldn't be expected to be on par with them. Even the mostelite humans pale next to the super human space marines. This is coming from a guy who loves the guard by the way. I just think we should stay a little grounded in our expectations for what IG should become.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Flanker wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You know what Guard are missing? A utility unit ala Pathfinders or Librarians or Warlocks or whatever you want to compare them to. Something which basically only gets brought so as to be a buffing unit, not a dedicated fighty thing or whatever. Command Squads are close, but the buff that they bring(Orders) really should just be an army wide thing ala Doctrina Imperatives.

What about if they made orders similar to SM chapter tactics? As in you pick the orders before you fight and then you don't have to keep rolling to see if they take effect. SM get those bonuses before the first die is even rolled.

So we get some orders that last only one turn and others that almost singlehandedly break the codex?

Nah. Doctrina Imperatives feel like the right way to go. Have varying "levels" to an Order type(a shooting with Ignores Cover as a penultimate Order, shooting with -1 and -2 to cover as the lesser variations) and you can add some kind of downside to it as well.

I don't mean the current orders, that would be too much. I should've clarified. I mean certain regiments get certain smaller buffs and traits similar to SM chapter tactics, since not all IG regiments train to the same tactics.

Then absolutely no.

Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.

And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".

So you're calling for regimental doctrines, Flanker? If so, I'm behind you all the way.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.

I don't understand why you bother with KP definition when KPs don't exist in 7th ed outside of house rules.

Besides, it's not like IG has it worse than MSU Dark Eldar or really anyone else.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then absolutely no.

Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.

And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".

Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.

Do assassins recieve any kind of augmentations?

CplPunishment wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.

Do assassins recieve any kind of augmentations?

Cybernetics, Chemical enhancements, Specialized Equipment you don't seem to find elsewhere specially made by the Adeptas Mechanicus, and are often trained by birth, and with the Culuxus case being a Blank as a requirement. Basically they stop kind of being human given the treatment they go through with the Vindicare being the most human by the end. (Not counting the specialized sneaky kill temples that specialize in poisons and the like)

Don't forget the Vanus temple! Death via bureaucracy!

But generally speaking, an Imperial Assassin is leagues above a space marine in terms of the quality of augments and training they receive. It's just that the Imperium could never hope to produce them on the scale of even space marines.

As far as the best truly human characters without any excessive augmentation, the most skilled in combat would probably be from either the death cults (well, at least in close quarters single-combat) or the Sisters of Battle. If it weren't for the fact that she's toeing the line of greater daemon of the Emperor, I'd nominate Celestine. But your average Canoness will likely display a level of skill beyond your average marine, with Celestines probably coming about in line with them on average.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

CplPunishment wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The most elite human is probably better than the least elite Space Marine.

True, with the "most elite human" being an Imperial Assassin.

Do assassins recieve any kind of augmentations?

Cybernetics, Chemical enhancements, Specialized Equipment you don't seem to find elsewhere specially made by the Adeptas Mechanicus, and are often trained by birth, and with the Culuxus case being a Blank as a requirement. Basically they stop kind of being human given the treatment they go through with the Vindicare being the most human by the end. (Not counting the specialized sneaky kill temples that specialize in poisons and the like)

Exactly. Like Space Marines, they start out as human and are made into something we could consider super-human. As such, they don't meet the criteria for highly trained but still human.

Anyway, this is a tangent.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then absolutely no.

Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.

And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".

Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.

"Combat Doctrines" is what Space Marines have now. They're supposed to be an army defining trait that can tip the balance of a match with a benefit(the listed unit types) and a semi-drawback(the "Affected models" bits), but as it stands now? You have to be Ultramarines or fielding specific formations or the Gladius in order to use them.

They are once per game things, stackable(a Battle Demi-Company allows you to use Tactical once per game that is Ultramarines allowing you to do Tactical again--1+1=2 uses) that do the following:
Assault Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 in the Assault phase of this turn. Affected Assault Squads, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Centurion Assault Squads--including any Independent Character that have joined those squads, can instead reroll all failed To Hit rolls in the Assault phase of this turn.

Tactical Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn. Affected Tactical Squads and ICs in them can reroll all failed To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn.

Devastator Doctrine--Rerolls on 1s in Shooting. ICs and Devs can reroll all in Shooting.

You're thinking of Regimental Doctrines, which I've expressed my displeasure with elsewhere. Like Chapter Tactics, they're a cool idea but there's too much min/maxing that goes on now. I don't want to see yet more of it.

Pretty sure it's been covered already, but one thing I'd like to see is essentially an Open-topped Taurox or the IG equivalent of an Ork Trukk. Dirt cheap, flimsy, but great for just running around and causing chaos. Plus, throwing out lots of Flamer templates would be a blast.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then absolutely no.

Not just no. Hell no. Chapter Tactics, while a wonderful idea, are horribly implemented.

And that's not even getting into the atrocious "Combat Doctrines".

Even tho they made IG quite competitive back then? I'd love to see something like this come back, but prob not to be.

"Combat Doctrines" is what Space Marines have now. They're supposed to be an army defining trait that can tip the balance of a match with a benefit(the listed unit types) and a semi-drawback(the "Affected models" bits), but as it stands now? You have to be Ultramarines or fielding specific formations or the Gladius in order to use them.

They are once per game things, stackable(a Battle Demi-Company allows you to use Tactical once per game that is Ultramarines allowing you to do Tactical again--1+1=2 uses) that do the following:
Assault Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 in the Assault phase of this turn. Affected Assault Squads, Bike Squads, Attack Bike Squads, and Centurion Assault Squads--including any Independent Character that have joined those squads, can instead reroll all failed To Hit rolls in the Assault phase of this turn.

Tactical Doctrine--Affected models can reroll To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn. Affected Tactical Squads and ICs in them can reroll all failed To Hit rolls in Shooting and Assault this turn.

Devastator Doctrine--Rerolls on 1s in Shooting. ICs and Devs can reroll all in Shooting.

You're thinking of Regimental Doctrines, which I've expressed my displeasure with elsewhere. Like Chapter Tactics, they're a cool idea but there's too much min/maxing that goes on now. I don't want to see yet more of it.

Yes, I know the difference. I believe your post was a follow-on to someone else's comment re IG doctrines so I didn't think it was necessary to be pedantic. I'll try to do better next time.

But you still didn't answer my question. I get that you don't like them. Ok, I do. That was (IMO and experience with playing IG since 2nd ed) the best codex/main rule set combination IG have had. I've offered my own anecdotal evidence as to why I think so previously in the thread (also in response to one of your negative posts on IG doctrines). Not sure how IG would min/max effectively using such a codex but whatever. Course, right now, don't know if such a codex would truly be game effective (ie competitive) or not, depends on what the 40K rules morph into. But... it would satisfy a large number of IG players that want customizable regiments and many die-hard IG players have basically given up on being competitive without adding in some special uber-allies. Heh, one of our local players was bashing my 'pure' IG list, telling me I needed to add these Marines or this whatever and my response was, "But then I wouldn't be playing Guard."

Anyways, we're going to have to agree to disagree on IG regimental doctrines as per the previous codex. You say "Hell No", I say I would love to see the ability to apply Deep Strike to my entire army, or buy Light Infantry for some squads so that I can Infiltrate them, or buy Carapace army for almost any unit, and yes, I'd still like it even at the cost of having to spend a doctrine point to be able to take Stormtroopers (sorry, they're Scions now) or Ratlings or whatever. And GW could even (as I seem to recall they did before) release lists of doctrines to match up to their 'historical' regiments for those that want to play Vostroyan or Mordians or Valhallans or ... So round and round we go, your turn to tell us again how much you dislike the very idea of Regimental Doctrines.