Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.
And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)
Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.
And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)
Stormravens already got kicked in the balls. Which needed to happen. So we'll have to see if IG rises to the top. It's one of the contenders, for sure. I can tell you that marines have no real answers except maybe for stuff that comes in the codex, which I won't have access to, of course.
"You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?
Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?"
None of that really matters because the conscripts facilitate easy tabling of marines. But from a strictly maelstrom perspective, they do increase the number of dead cards in the deck by just existing, and they conversely make a few cards autoscores for the IG. The "hold such and such for two turns" is particularly good for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks. "
It's really more like turn 5, or when I have no objectives left on my side of the table. Getting close is death, and staying at range is death.
Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.
And who are the worst transgressors in this 'perfect storm' of tournament-winning unstoppable cheese that is sweeping the 8th edition W/L thread here? (it's not btw)
Stormravens already got kicked in the balls. Which needed to happen. So we'll have to see if IG rises to the top. It's one of the contenders, for sure. I can tell you that marines have no real answers except maybe for stuff that comes in the codex, which I won't have access to, of course.
"You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?
Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?"
None of that really matters because the conscripts facilitate easy tabling of marines. But from a strictly maelstrom perspective, they do increase the number of dead cards in the deck by just existing, and they conversely make a few cards autoscores for the IG. The "hold such and such for two turns" is particularly good for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks. "
It's really more like turn 5, or when I have no objectives left on my side of the table. Getting close is death, and staying at range is death.
That doesn't really alter the fact that Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks will all have your force neutered on turn 1, 2, or 3. We all can do it, it's a system problem, not a problem with guard.
There are important mathematical differences there, imo. There is no list I fare worse against than IG. I've take the nids lunch money every game, actually.
Regarding other Marine chapters:
Ultramarines do fine, they have Rowboat and their chapter tactics allow them to aggressively blend shooting with assaulting.
Ravenguard are more than fine, since the IG will have -1 to hit across the board against them. This means most things hitting on 5+ and Conscripts hitting on 6+, so you're basically looking at S3 Ork shooting. Until they get within 12", but at that point they can just charge to negate the shooting entirely. Ravenguard also have the most deep-striking options thanks to their chapter strategem.
Iron Hands might have some trouble, but their 6+ FNP will help them stay on the table and get more units into CC.
White Scars will easily be doing first-turn charges with their chapter tactic.
Same for Black Templars, and Grimaldus will turn that fight into a blender.
Fists are a bit terrain dependent, but their ability to ignore cover will give them an edge in dense terrain.
Salamanders aren't particularly suited for fighting hordes (re-rolling 1 hit and 1 wound against 50 targets), but would likely be able to use their chapter tactic with long-ranged AT to just shoot over their heads and pop the tanks.
Flesh Tearers just bring Gabriel to turn any assault unit into budget berzerkers.
Dark Angels and Space Wolves have way too many options and special characters to keep track of. Blood Claws with the right equipment and characters can probably get 4 attacks that re-roll to hit in the fight phase though.
Also anyone who has a chapter master equivalent can get a budget Rowboat that gives you re-rolls for shooting and fighting. Consider that AdMech players consider Cawl pretty much must-includes just for re-rolls on shooting.
One big theme I'm noticing in general is "GW wants you to stack characters, because characters are expensive and GW wants your money".
Martel732 wrote: There are important mathematical differences there, imo. There is no list I fare worse against than IG. I've take the nids lunch money every game, actually.
Then maybe, just maybe, your list is optimized to handle a preferred opponent and playstyle, and handle it well, and you're upset the Guard does not, in fact, abide by that playstyle and therefore your list is losing an edge in it's optimization.
My Sisters list is optimized to fight an opponent who is fielding mostly tanks and mechanized infantry, and as a rule isn't particularly interested in Close Quarters combat, and absolutely can't deal with melee deep-strikers. That doesn't necessarily mean CQC out of deep strike is OP [though deep-strike mass melee does put conscripts to shame in the realm of requiring no tactics and having no counterplay], it just means it's kind of inconvenient for me to face and requires me to take the extra step to secure victory.
So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.
I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.
I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.
We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.
Sorry you have not established that. The games i play are mostly with the ITC terrain setup. In each corner are GW ruins, or a hill. You can fit 4 manticores comfortably out of line of sight on these maps. If the deployment zones favor the guard, you can easily fit 6 out of line of sight.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!
Actually not all GW terrain is covered in windows as you described.
Let me pause here for a moment and say this:
I am speaking from practical experience. You're effectively trying to convince me that what I experience EVERY WEEKEND cannot happen.
So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.
I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.
I still think that even if I list tailored, I'd come up short because my options for anti-infantry really aren't that good.
So is my Sisters list. No list can truly have a hope of beating both an armored company with 0 infantry models and a infantry horde with all light infantry and no vehicle models. That's why saturating your list with tanks is generally so effective.
I've chosen to build a all-comer's list that handles the majority of the foes it might face. It has a marginal overdedication to killing tanks, because there are a lot of tanks in my meta, and several lists almost entirely of tanks/MC's, so if somebody broke the mold and ran 100% Hormagaunts or Boyz, I'd probably lose pretty bad.
I still think that even if I list tailored, I'd come up short because my options for anti-infantry really aren't that good.
There are Crusaders and Storm Ravens. You can engage them with Vanguard Marines and Sanguinary Guard. Tactical guys, as assault cannon razorbacks, can also put a dent in them. Massed fire many times their value will bring them down.
Also remember that your Land Raider or Storm Raven or other thing has other features besisdes its guns.
Let's try a Crusader, with, I don't know, 15 Vanguard and Gabriel Seth, riding in it. It absolutely can tank a lot of incoming fire, and consolidates 5 drops into 1, and do an impression of Khorne Berserkers.
The Land Raider can fire 24 boltgun shots, 12 Assault Cannon shots, and 4 Storm Bolter shots, then the Vanguard can shoot, and then charge, for 30 boltgun shots and 30 melee attacks, re-rolling to-hits. You can kill about 42, which is pretty respectable for a unit that both soaks fire and kills infantry. As an added bonus, you can annoy tanks once you're done with the Conscripts.
Or you can stuff it full of Sternguard and pretend to be Dominions, but with a Land Raider. Not a bad move either.
This gets the Land Raider's shooting, plus 60 boltgun shots and 30 melee attacks, all of which have re-rolls, averaging about 55 Conscripts kill per turn, for 700 points [3x cost of Conscripts and Support]
Or you can bring 3 Assault Cannon Razorbacks stuffed with Sternguard and do an even better impression of Dominions
This is more prone to degradation and doesn't have massive drop advantage, but also doesn't have an "all your eggs in one basket" effect, and gets 62 Conscripts a turn, plus 3 HK missiles for firing off at enemy tanks.
Also remember, if you stick HK Missiles and Storm Bolters on all your tanks, you can actually make a pretty sizable dent in the Conscripts while knocking out enemy tanks, leaving less heavy lifting for your antiinfantry units. Lately, I've been finding it incredibly useful to mount H-K missiles on my Immolators for this exact purpose. they're cheap, and added considerably to my already-powerful alpha-strike.
As an addendum, it looks like Wolf Guard are strictly better than Sternguard. For the same price, everyone also gets a Chainsword. On the other hand, the Space Wolves need to go for Grimnar for full re-rolls, who is more expensive than Seth.
I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.
We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.
Sorry you have not established that. The games i play are mostly with the ITC terrain setup. In each corner are GW ruins, or a hill. You can fit 4 manticores comfortably out of line of sight on these maps. If the deployment zones favor the guard, you can easily fit 6 out of line of sight.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!
Actually not all GW terrain is covered in windows as you described.
Let me pause here for a moment and say this:
I am speaking from practical experience. You're effectively trying to convince me that what I experience EVERY WEEKEND cannot happen.
Take a picture of your board. I'm honestly not sure how to completely hide 6 tanks, in any deployment zone. I play every weekend and once again during the week. Sometimes there are a few large LoS-blocking obstacles, but they can at most hide one tank from one direction, and if you move 6" to the side you can see the tank. Other times there's a scattering of ruins, but there's almost always an open first-floor window to look through.
And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"
Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.
Genestealers and Orks are no where near the power level of guard. Not even in the same ball park at all. They're tough but it's not an auto-loss, like it is with guard. I mean I can take a picture of the boards, sure. Or you could just go to games workshop website and look through their terrain. lol.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"
There should be a major downside to locking out deepstriking options. Generally speaking, the majority of my anti tank is close range for CSM.
That should not be the sort of thing you manage without a large investment and real downsides that don't amount to "well a perfectly tailored list counters it!"
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.
Again, as stated before, these problems are not present in all horde armies because we don't need the same absurd level of anti infantry firepower to deal with most horde lists. I've beaten a list that was almost entirely ork infantry with the same army list that struggles to deal with conscripts. You aren't compareable to any other horde army, save the brimstone horror demon rush.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And I'm still not convinced at all by your argument that they're survivability is in excess anyway, since all I see is "there's something that presents an obstacle to deepstriking everything to win, that makes it impossible to win before the Guard fires a shot! It's OP!"
There should be a major downside to locking out deepstriking options. Generally speaking, the majority of my anti tank is close range for CSM.
That should not be the sort of thing you manage without a large investment and real downsides that don't amount to "well a perfectly tailored list counters it!"
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Grey Knights and Deathwatch might have a legitimate complaint, but that's more because GK and DW are probably severely underpowered. In particular, the former runs afoul of the Rule of 1 in psychic powers, and all their units pay for psychic powers they can't use and gets a special nerf on Smite. And that's not a problem with Conscripts, because mass Genestealers or mass Boyz will cause the same problem.
Again, as stated before, these problems are not present in all horde armies because we don't need the same absurd level of anti infantry firepower to deal with most horde lists. I've beaten a list that was almost entirely ork infantry with the same army list that struggles to deal with conscripts. You aren't compareable to any other horde army, save the brimstone horror demon rush.
Deepstrike-everything is literally the most brain-dead strategy in the game. And that's saying something, because there's not a lot of strategy in 40k as is beyond "I move, and I shoot". It completely ignores the terrain on the board, it completely ignores maneuver, it completely ignores line of sight and cover, and it generally only cares 50% about target priority, because it's just going to charge the closest thing and keep piling and consolidating forward.
Deepstrike should be for a couple, small support units, not the core of the army's killing power. There should be a major downside to committing to mass deepstrike, of which there is none.
There is a downside to fielding an army full of conscripts as a counter to mass deepstrike, and that's being an entirely static position. You can't flex as the tactical situation demands it, you can't move out, early, thus preventing you from scoring objectives, and, if you're not observant of maneuver and fire avenues, you can end up outmaneuvered.
You already have a massive downside for deepstriking, the cost.
Units that natively have reserves attached to them rulewise are all to an extent overcosted. AdMech Infiltrators, Terminators, Kommandos, Rough Riders, Striking Scopions, Drop Pods etc.
Scouts, Lictors, MAYBE Mawlocs, and Ghostkeels; are held to be the only ones worth their cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: NVM Scouts have a deployment shenanigan not reserve rule.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Deepstrike-everything is literally the most brain-dead strategy in the game. And that's saying something, because there's not a lot of strategy in 40k as is beyond "I move, and I shoot".
Deepstrike should be for a couple, small support units, not the core of the army's killing power. There should be a major downside to committing to mass deepstrike, of which there is none.
Except you are locking out any deepstrike. Being able to totally shut down mass deepstrike means even used in moderation deepstrike is useless. At least, any sort of anti tank deepstrike, anti infantry has some usage here of course.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: There is a downside to fielding an army full of conscripts as a counter to mass deepstrike, and that's being an entirely static position. You can't flex as the tactical situation demands it, you can't move out, early, thus preventing you from scoring objectives, and, if you're not observant of maneuver and fire avenues, you can end up outmaneuvered.
Those are not downsides of a reasonable nature for the strength of the build. These are factors anyone must consider, and truth be told this list is less effected by them than many and has far more margin for error. Being out maneuvered when you don't have the most durable screen in the game is always more punishing.
Quickjager wrote: You already have a massive downside for deepstriking, the cost.
Units that natively have reserves attached to them rulewise are all to an extent overcosted. AdMech Infiltrators, Terminators, Kommandos, Rough Riders, Striking Scopions, Drop Pods etc.
Scouts, Lictors, MAYBE Mawlocs, and Ghostkeels; are held to be the only ones worth their cost.
Uhh... I don't think so.
Stormtroopers, Tyrannocytes [and inherently anything within them], Scarab Terminators, Trygons, I could go on.
I'm just going to point out: A Drop Pod is 105 points, carries 10 guys, and has a storm bolter. A Tyrannocyte is 138, carries 20, and has 5 storm bolters. A Trygon is 175, carries 30, and is in and of itself a giant scary monster with a crap-top of attacks and wounds!
Also consider the following: A Rhino carries 10 men, and will unload them 12" from the enemy on turn 2, but also have to survive turn 1's shooting, and costs 70 points. Considering that it's a layer of resilience, just like conscripts, and takes over 4 times the cost of itself to blow up in one turn, it's a wonder it isn't also a cause of contention. A Drop Pod carries 10 men, will unload them 9" from the enemy on turn 1, and doesn't have to survive turn 1, ever. They have the same shooting, so it's easy to see why, if a Rhino is fair at 70 points, a Drop Pod is probably extremely fair or undercosted at 105, considering the only counter for it is covering the board in Conscripts, since it happens on turn 1 instead of turn 2 and can't be destroyed while it's waiting to arrive, and will therefore never fail in it's duty.
And that's before we get to other silly things, like 60 point Stormtrooper Squads. Seriously. What the hell, why are these a thing.
As I said, especially since you can deep strike wherever your models fit and there's no such thing as mishaping onto terrain, the features of the board are entirely irrelevant to deep strikers. Just put them down near what you want gone and go. You can drop who-the-hell-cares how may Elysians or Stormtroopers, and just blast everything into oblivion, then drop a second wave next turn! You can burrow up with 60 Hormagaunts and drop down 40 Genestealers, and just overrun your foe beneath the tide!
There are two counterplays to deepstrikers: being a mass deepstriker yourself, and going second, or... covering the board with cheap guys to limit the value of the deepstrike.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.
I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.
You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?
The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.
The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:
1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.
When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.
If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.
Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.
When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.
If GW would take the time to rebuild 40k into alternating activations instead of a clunky IgoUgo game, most of those problems would be put to rest. I was really hopeful they'd move that way for 40k, since the rest of the industry has been experimenting with it lately.
Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.
There is almost nothing worth putting in a Tyrannocyte because the assault units are already fast and for the cost you can run another unit of 13 genestealers, or pretty much any other small base unit. So you're paying 138 points for... 5 stormbolters, amazing. No one runs them.
Trygon has 7 attacks re-rolling 1s, pretty good. But it has to be in synapse and if you want to deploy its fellow units they also have to be out of 9 inch. So no matter what they are still 9 inches out. It in the end isn't THAT scary because it is only T6 and is a monster meaning I can target it pretty easily. They still have uses especially in regards to mass-burrow transports but most people would take the Mawloc instead because it is cheaper, and once again your melee assault units are so fast they don't need a transport. People seems to like Mawlocs because of their raw damage potential is great and you can have like 4 of them literally 1 inch away from an enemy units at a REALLY low cost.
So yea, the Tyranids got great options compared to other armies, but they STILL aren't worth the points because they're so fast. Because of inherent army differences.
I could go on.
Scions are fine, Plasma guns are SUPER undercosted and the Command Squad was not thought out (4guys with 4 special weapons?). Universally accepted.
Scarab Terminators can't say one way or another SilverAlien plays Chaos maybe he will bring up a point.
Also NO ONE is running Drop pods because spending 5% of your total army just to move MAYBE 10% of your army once and provide nothing, is dumb.
ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.
Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.
I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.
You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?
The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.
The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:
1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.
When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.
If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.
Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.
When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.
If GW would take the time to rebuild 40k into alternating activations instead of a clunky IgoUgo game, most of those problems would be put to rest. I was really hopeful they'd move that way for 40k, since the rest of the industry has been experimenting with it lately.
As a DZC player, I'm not super into alternating activations, but it does help.
I do think just moving the move phase to be the last phase would be enough though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: There is almost nothing worth putting in a Tyrannocyte because the assault units are already fast and for the cost you can run another unit of 13 genestealers, or pretty much any other small base unit. So you're paying 138 points for... 5 stormbolters, amazing. No one runs them.
Trygon has 7 attacks re-rolling 1s, pretty good. But it has to be in synapse and if you want to deploy its fellow units they also have to be out of 9 inch. So no matter what they are still 9 inches out. It in the end isn't THAT scary because it is only T6 and is a monster meaning I can target it pretty easily. They still have uses especially in regards to mass-burrow transports but most people would take the Mawloc instead because it is cheaper, and once again your melee assault units are so fast they don't need a transport. People seems to like Mawlocs because of their raw damage potential is great and you can have like 4 of them literally 1 inch away from an enemy units at a REALLY low cost.
So yea, the Tyranids got great options compared to other armies, but they STILL aren't worth the points because they're so fast. Because of inherent army differences.
I could go on.
Scions are fine, Plasma guns are SUPER undercosted and the Command Squad was not thought out (4guys with 4 special weapons?). Universally accepted.
Scarab Terminators can't say one way or another SilverAlien plays Chaos maybe he will bring up a point.
Also NO ONE is running Drop pods because spending 5% of your total army just to move MAYBE 10% of your army once and provide nothing, is dumb.
Well, a guy I know runs 3 Tyrannocytes. In addition, Hive Commander only works on 1 unit. So if you have 2 units of Hormagaunts and 2 units of Genestealers, only one of them is going to be making to to the enemy on turn 1, and all the ones that don't are going to be taking enemy fire. 8+D6 requires a roll of a 7 to get to get you as close as a Tyrannocyte will. Hormagaunts also can make that charge-out-of-deep strike a 8" charge, thanks to an upgrade that adds 1 to their charge distances. Even with re-rolling charges, there's a big difference between 9", 10", 11", and 12". Also, make it a Trygon Prime.
It's not like Rhinos are moving troops more than once either, and doing much afterwords. I've never once seen someone get back into a transport.
I look at it this way: a Razorback is about the same price as a Drop Pod. A Drop Pod offers superior protection for the troops within, faster delivery, and larger transport capacity, a Razorback offers the ability to continue to make itself useful.
In addition, the half drop on the board clause isn't much of an obstacle. 10-man squads of Guardsman, Termigaunts, and Cultists, and 5-man squads of marines, are cheap.
Yea, that's why people are using Razorbacks or Rhinos, because they can keep moving and screening. What are you getting at?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also forgot about Trygon Prime, that makes them pretty good.
Quickjager wrote: Yea, that's why people are using Razorbacks or Rhinos, because they can keep moving and screening. What are you getting at?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
It's not to cost of plasmaguns that makes stormtrooper command squads excessively good. I know this because I don't see anyone fielding the ordinary command squads full of plasmaguns, who are also BS3+.
It's the cheap deep-strike ability that makes stormtroopers way too good. They have plasmaguns, and they can be put anywhere, and there's nothing the opponent can do about them because they weren't on the board at the time the opposition went.
I'm seeing Tyranids with burrowing/dropping 'gaunts and 'stealers, Tyranids with footslogging 'gaunts and 'stealers, and a single Tyranid player running all MC's and Tyranid Warriors.
I faced stormtrooper drop, but he was only half committed to it.
I've faced a guy with an army of 20 Scarab Terminators and 40 Cultists, dropping the former in wherever.
There was also a BA guy who deepstriked almost his entire army. Unfortunately for him, he also charged a Lifta-Wagon and tried to out-melee a 30-man blob of Orks buffed by Ghazskull and a Wierdboy, but that's besides the point.
Null-deploy and deep-strike was excessively powerful last edition. Deep-strike has been buffed, but to compensate you can't go full null-deploy, but half-null is still very powerful.
Also, IG + GSC is like vanilla IG, but better, because it also has Genestealers in it.
Quickjager wrote: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....
Quickjager wrote: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....
Quickjager wrote: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....
From my game experience so far, land raiders are still overcosted. Unfortunately. Or perhaps IG guns are that much undercosted. It's hard to tell still.
The recosting of units in the marine codex does give me some hope, though, even if I have to wait a bit to get the goodies.
"Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition. "
I think you seriously overestimate how much damage CC really does this edition. Especially because people can walk right out of it.
Quickjager wrote: Ironically I went over to the Tyranid tactica, they're talking about having lists that are essentially half IG because of the access to IGGSC. lol.
Yep, the best way to run a tyranid horde is conscripts. That should probably say something.....
It's also better than tyranids and GSC because it has IG in it. Or is mostly IG.
Not around here. All it means is that Tyranid players have universally lower skill level.
That's not true. I never said that. In fact, most of the Tyranid players I know I consider quite good at this game.
And, of course, in the last few pages of the Tyranids tactica thread, I'm seeing 0 lists including conscripts. Lots of allied GSC, no allied Conscripts.
I'm seeing:
Genestealers and Trygons
Genestealer and Genestealers
Trygons and Hormagaunts
'gaunts and Tyrannocytes
But no Conscripts.
I'll say what I think again: I think that Space Marine players are upset because a strategy that they like isn't stomping on us.
I'm going to point out that Guilliman and Razorbacks is doing better than Conscripts and Manticores, too.
I still think that, since the Space Marines can't do mass melee as good as Tyranids and Chaos [whose mass melee lists both stand a very good chance of defeating IG], and can't do gunline shooting as well as the Guard or Tau, and can't do close-assault shooting as well as Necrons or Sisters, they need to leverage the fact that they're fairly decent at all three of those things to win. Guard has a weakness to melee, so exploit it, but also remember that you can't melee as good as full melee forces, and use your ranged support to support your melee troops and cripple threats to them, and make sure that, like ours, the units in your army are all supporting and working together. If you commit to full gunline, full close-range shooting, or full mass melee, you're going to be beat, because if Guard couldn't deal with Space Marine mass melee, there'd be no way for them to deal with Tyranid mass melee or Chaos mass melee.
That's why it's so hard to develop a viable single-unit counter but easier to think up a full army, because the entire army works together, not just a Land Raider full of Stermguard.
ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.
Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.
Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).
Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...
My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.
I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.
*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.
Martel732 wrote: From my game experience so far, land raiders are still overcosted. Unfortunately. Or perhaps IG guns are that much undercosted. It's hard to tell still.
The recosting of units in the marine codex does give me some hope, though, even if I have to wait a bit to get the goodies.
"Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition. "
I think you seriously overestimate how much damage CC really does this edition. Especially because people can walk right out of it.
I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee.
ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.
Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.
Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).
Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...
My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.
I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.
*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.
"I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee. "
Okay, marine CC capability. That's what I meant. I know Orks and Nids can kill a lot of gak in CC.
And for the record, mass deep strike or whatever, is not a strategy I ever liked or advocated. It has always had critical flaws ever since 5th. I'm looking for any strat at all. I suspect the recosting in the codex might give me some new angles.
Martel732 wrote: "I don't think you've played and watched games against Ork and Tyranid mass melee. "
Okay, marine CC capability. That's what I meant. I know Orks and Nids can kill a lot of gak in CC.
And for the record, mass deep strike or whatever, is not a strategy I ever liked or advocated. It has always had critical flaws ever since 5th. I'm looking for any strat at all. I suspect the recosting in the codex might give me some new angles.
I'll help:
Here's the 2000 point guard list I proposed earlier:
It's not the nastiest thing I could cook up, but it's also not expecting to face the nastiest thing my enemy could cook up. If I was doing that, it would involve Baneblades, Stormtroopers, and Vultures. We also know that the nastiest things you, Blood Angels, could cook up is some variety of having lots of Storm Ravens.
Here's what I propose to respond to and counter it:
It's also not the nastiest thing in the world, but it's definitely capable of holding its own, I think.
Strategy outline
Spoiler:
It definitely has fewer drops than the IG, but it doesn't have quite as many command points. If you get to pick deployment, pick either Vanguard Assault or Search and Destroy: that way, you can get two angle into the hidey-holes the artillery is hiding in. This is kind of important, so spend a CP for this.
On turn 1, everything, and I mean everything, is loaded up in tanks. Put a predator and a Lasback with a Captain on each flank, push the center with Seth and the Land Raider. The last Lasback will move to add weight to the flank where the enemy battle line is weakest.
On turn 1, the Crusader will pump fire into the Conscripts from close range, joined by the fire from all the Storm Bolters on the other tanks. Pump Lascannon fire into enemy anti-infantry vehicles first to try to kick the Wyverns and Punishers to BS6+. Extra H-K missiles should go towards crippling Manticores. Your tanks are now going to take a beating from the Tank Commanders and Manticores, however, there's a silver lining: it takes a lot to kill a Land Raider, and if they go for the Crusader that's going to leave Predators and Lasbacks alive in future turns.
Unload everybody on turn 2 from surviving transports. You will have fairly overwhelming antiinfantry capacity, between the Storm Bolters, the re-rolls from the Captains and Seth, and the 2 melee attacks per model. Pile on in to the second rank after filling them and the first rank with lead. Lead the charge with any surviving non-Predator tanks. You shouldn't have a problem wiping them out. Use your Predators and Lasbacks to try to cripple Manticores and Tank Commanders. Make sure all your missiles have been fired.
The IG will retaliate. Hopefully, you've crippled the Punishers and Wyverns and Manticores, because their retaliation is going to hurt. I predict about half the Sternguard to still be around, and your motor pool to be fairly depleted. Depending on your success at crippling and exploding Punishers, Wyverns, and Manticores, you may have more left.
With the infantry wiped up, converge all your sternguard on surviving tanks. All those Power Axes are equipped for a reason, so that you wound Leman Russes on a 5. Hopefully you also have at least one or two lascannon-armed tanks kicking around, otherwise you'll be fishing for 6's with the Crusader.
I'm not saying it's a guaranteed win by any means, but it's worth a try if you haven't already been trying something along these lines, at least.
ross-128 wrote:Technically conscripts don't even really lock out deep-striking. They can still drop, they can still get a turn-1 charge. They just mess with your targeting options by forcing the deep-strikers to chew through a bunch of units that are inefficient to kill by design.
Well yeah. As I see it, the frustration about them is because they prevent mass deep-strike, and it's lesser cousin, rhino-rush, from being an instantaneous win condition.
Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).
Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...
My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.
I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.
*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.
You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?
You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?
On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.
Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IGAT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...
If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.
Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).
Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...
My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.
I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.
*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.
You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?
You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?
On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.
Yes, as I was trying to explain, I only did that in one game as a desperation tactic. I simply don't know what to do about conscripts. Shoot them from max range and have the conscripts return fire - with the entirety of their squishy back line artillery chipping in, so that I slowly chip away 3 point meat shields while they delete my army a couple units at a time... or get close enough to shoot their squishy back line, but allow them to take those 400 shots you're so confused about me allowing. There is a third option that's similar to the first, except melee units run in to chip away at them and the conscripts just get rapid fire for 2 shots each (with the fall back and shoot order) instead of frfsrf for 2 shots each. No matter what melee units I choose, the math always show them killing an insufficient number of conscripts while dying very fast.
I'm really tired of people being so incredulous that conscripts would actually be in range to shoot stuff and I wonder if you play against guard that just are too lazy to move their models. Let me put it like this. A base is 1" wide. A conscript can move 6", and gets rapid fire up to 12". That means it has an 18" range that it can get to rapid-fire range in any direction, which is a 37" diameter zone of control. 37" is a freaking big circle. Yeah, if you count the whole unit as being in rapid fire range, the bubble will shrink a lot. A unit is about 7" deep (7x7 is 49, though technically the bases aren't quite an inch AND you can push them together closer than that, but whatever), so let's call it a 30" bubble. A bubble that moves every turn.
To go back to the starweavers, how on earth does a transport with a 16" move get over the conscripts without hitting that bubble on both sides? And oh yeah, remember that's just for rapid-fire (aka 200 shots from 50man unit). The full range bubble is 54" so good luck avoiding that.
And 24" is all they really need for Eldar foot anyway! Against typical Eldar, 100 shots is 50 hits (searchlight gives BS4+), 25 wounds (T3 because Elves are weak), and from there of course armor varies a lot by unit, but the very few units not killed outright still die to an average morale roll. This is every single non-wraith Craftworld Eldar infantry option in the whole codex, even at max squad size. They all die to conscripts. Conscripts! In one round of shooting! At max range! They are not just a meat shield, and their range is not pointless. They are fething deadly. I may be repeating myself.
Just remove the orders, that's all it takes to make them reasonable again. No frfsrf, no shooting after withdrawing from combat. Those things are the problem that needs to stop.
I had an... odd idea. Why not disallow conscripts from falling back, on the basis of their terrible coordination and training. So getting into melee doesn't mean chipping away at ablative wounds that fall back so the big guns can fire, but rather forces both sides to commit. They are still a screen, but it prevents some of the more abusive tactics where conscripts keep your important units perfectly safe even as they target any enemy they choose.
That looks like a decent matchup, but I'd never use that list as a general list. That's the problem. It's a bit like Tau from 7th; if I list tailored of Riptides, I had a slim chance. But a tournament list? No chance.
SilverAlien wrote: I had an... odd idea. Why not disallow conscripts from falling back, on the basis of their terrible coordination and training. So getting into melee doesn't mean chipping away at ablative wounds that fall back so the big guns can fire, but rather forces both sides to commit. They are still a screen, but it prevents some of the more abusive tactics where conscripts keep your important units perfectly safe even as they target any enemy they choose.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.
Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IGAT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...
If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.
Dunno how you got that impression. Of course everyone's going to complain about how their own armies fail against it, but that doesn't mean they're unwilling to try something else, it just means they can't work within their own codex/collection to beat it. I don't use any deep strikers or cheap transports and I've still got no idea what Craftworld Eldar I could possibly take to beat IG with conscripts in front (outside of Forgeworld, as I learned earlier in this thread).
Just so you see a different perspective on why they're frustrating as hell...
My most common weapons have a 12" and 24" range. My 12" stuff literally cannot hit the stuff behind the conscripts, the 24" stuff can't either, on hammer-and-anvil deployment maps, though they can walk into rapid-fire range on standard deployment and take 400 shots from 100 conscripts (I tried that one game in desperation. didn't go well). Even most of my "long range" heavy weapons have a 36" range, and I've got to stand in the conscripts 24" range (12" on hammer+anvil) and get mowed down by their frfsrf. And even then they'll get to rapid-fire range if they walk forward for a turn or 2.
I'm not really sure how my vaunted Eldar mobility is supposed to help when the conscript zone of control can so easily bubble wrap their back line such that I can't go over or around them. They'd be plenty effective just as chaff, but they only need 101 points worth of buff support for every 300 points worth of conscripts to get unrivaled offensive fire-power in addition to the staying power.
*note, I think conscripts are fine if you take away their orders.
You realize, that to get 400 shots, you would have to let a unit that is, lets say, 7" by 7", move within 12" of your unit. That means the front rank is 5" away from you. I mean, ok. That's a lot of shots. But don't you think you bear some responsibility for placing yourself in a position where they could do that?
You're not letting your opponent measure only the closest guy and count all of them in range are you?
On a point by point basis, if they're all in range (hah), conscripts are indeed 30% more efficient per hit than regular guardsmen. But if you remove their order abilities, they're less points efficient, and there is no longer any reason to take them. Everyone will just take regular guardsman. Which is fine with me honestly.
Yes, as I was trying to explain, I only did that in one game as a desperation tactic. I simply don't know what to do about conscripts. Shoot them from max range and have the conscripts return fire - with the entirety of their squishy back line artillery chipping in, so that I slowly chip away 3 point meat shields while they delete my army a couple units at a time... or get close enough to shoot their squishy back line, but allow them to take those 400 shots you're so confused about me allowing. There is a third option that's similar to the first, except melee units run in to chip away at them and the conscripts just get rapid fire for 2 shots each (with the fall back and shoot order) instead of frfsrf for 2 shots each. No matter what melee units I choose, the math always show them killing an insufficient number of conscripts while dying very fast.
I'm really tired of people being so incredulous that conscripts would actually be in range to shoot stuff and I wonder if you play against guard that just are too lazy to move their models. Let me put it like this. A base is 1" wide. A conscript can move 6", and gets rapid fire up to 12". That means it has an 18" range that it can get to rapid-fire range in any direction, which is a 37" diameter zone of control. 37" is a freaking big circle. Yeah, if you count the whole unit as being in rapid fire range, the bubble will shrink a lot. A unit is about 7" deep (7x7 is 49, though technically the bases aren't quite an inch AND you can push them together closer than that, but whatever), so let's call it a 30" bubble. A bubble that moves every turn.
To go back to the starweavers, how on earth does a transport with a 16" move get over the conscripts without hitting that bubble on both sides? And oh yeah, remember that's just for rapid-fire (aka 200 shots from 50man unit). The full range bubble is 54" so good luck avoiding that.
And 24" is all they really need for Eldar foot anyway! Against typical Eldar, 100 shots is 50 hits (searchlight gives BS4+), 25 wounds (T3 because Elves are weak), and from there of course armor varies a lot by unit, but the very few units not killed outright still die to an average morale roll. This is every single non-wraith Craftworld Eldar infantry option in the whole codex, even at max squad size. They all die to conscripts. Conscripts! In one round of shooting! At max range! They are not just a meat shield, and their range is not pointless. They are fething deadly. I may be repeating myself.
Just remove the orders, that's all it takes to make them reasonable again. No frfsrf, no shooting after withdrawing from combat. Those things are the problem that needs to stop.
The problem is that conscripts are in a weird spot. They're only really good for two reasons:
1. They cost 1 pt less than a normal guardsman (for BS5+ instead of BS4+).
2. You can get them in groups of up to 50. Which makes giving them orders more efficient versus regular guard.
But if you can't give them orders, then they're not worth taking at all. The things people are most worried about with conscripts can be duplicated by regular guardsmen for relatively small increase in cost. If conscripts are eliminated or nerfed, people will just take regular guardsmen to fulfill the same function.
50 conscripts, 150 points, 1 platoon commander 30 points total 180 points. 200 shots at bs 5+ is 66 hits.
33 guardsmen, 132 points, 2 company commanders 60 points, total 192 points. 132 shots at bs 4+ is also 66 hits.
Excluding the characters since they're probably standing 6" backwards. Guardsmen will have 17 fewer wounds, but Conscripts can't bubble wrap and fire effectively at the same time.
That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.
Deathypoo wrote: That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.
That's not a nerf, that's outright deletion. Take away orders and there is no reason to ever bring them.
Deathypoo wrote: That's fine. It's a bit of an oversimplification of all the pros and cons of having MSU instead of big blobs, but if taking away orders ultimately results in taking away 17 wounds without reducing the firepower, that's also an acceptable nerf.
That's not a nerf, that's outright deletion. Take away orders and there is no reason to ever bring them.
I guess 50 cheap, unbreakable wounds isn't good enough.
I think conscripts would still perform their function (essentially the pike line in a pike and shotte army) even without orders.
If you are bringing conscripts (or unupgraded IG infantry squads, for that matter) for their firepower, you're not quite handling it correctly - there are much better firepower options in the IG army list.
The problem is that those firepower options are glass cannons in melee, or can be outright stopped from firing ever by a melee unit, and conscripts solve this problem nicely and without cutting much into the existing firepower (because of the cheap cost).
So I believe taking away Orders is certainly an understandable and useful nerf that preserves the role and utility of conscripts while reducing their offensive output and points efficiency.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, if I may go on, I believe that conscripts with orders overperform - conscripts are cheap because they are supposed to be a wall without cutting meaningfully into the firepower of the army (after all, what use is a wall with no guns behind it? Just an annoyingly tall speedbump!)
However, adding meaningfully to the army's firepower is what bringing conscripts does now with Orders, if you spend the time and energy (and points) to bring them the officers required.to manage them. That's not right and shouldn't be the role of conscripts. I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread or in another thread on the same topic that you could conceivably outright remove conscripts lasguns entirely and they'd still be useful for their designed function, though that'd be a bit unfluffy.
Martel732 wrote:That looks like a decent matchup, but I'd never use that list as a general list. That's the problem. It's a bit like Tau from 7th; if I list tailored of Riptides, I had a slim chance. But a tournament list? No chance.
Sure, it's not a tournament list, but it can handle quite a variety of foes, including the majority style of lists used in the league right now at my local game store. Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway. The Artillery list is good enough for league play, and can probably manage at the low end of tournaments, but if you're talking about trying to win a serious tournament, I'd recommend something consisting mostly of Stormravens, with something tough for your boots on the ground.
How does 3 Stormravens, a Fellblade, a Captain, a Lieutenant, and a Librarian sound, then?
But anyway, I wouldn't call the list I posited a tailored list. I think it's a step better than most of what I see floating around a league, but might struggle with the Nidzilla and all Land-Raiders list. It can definitely fight the IG gunline though, and come out on top.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I saw an Eldar player overfly them with Starweavers to make the Starweavers melee the tanks, turning them off, and then deploying the guys inside who charged the officer and then CQC'ed the conscripts until they were dead.
Well for one thing, that's Harlequins not Craftworld Eldar. But also, if the starweavers flew over the conscripts and then charged, then the turn before they did that they had to be within 12" rapid fire range of the conscripts. I'm guessing that IG player is one of those who thinks that conscripts aren't worth the points for orders and searchlights? Because otherwise I don't understand how the starweavers didn't get popped. Starweavers aren't terribly sturdy, actually... it wouldn't be unlikely for the IGAT to pop them and then the harliquens inside get murdered by the conscripts. Honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what kind of situation happened to allow the Harlequins to do this...
If he didn't fully buff his conscripts then whatever, I don't think they're OP without orders and searchlights and I imagine a lot of tactics can beat them.
He did. 50 Conscripts vs. Starweaver, up close do an average of 5 wounds, and that's assuming they've all converged onto the thing. There were 6 starweavers, and he discovered that IG antitank is virtually ineffective against them, because it seems to be that Starweavers are in a unique position of being more vulnerable to IG Lasguns than IG Lascannons. He dumped autocannon and lascannon and tank fire into them, and several of them died, but several more made it through, and that was all that was needed.
Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Eldar mech spam is actually solid. Eldar have decent army options.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.
Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.
I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.
There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.
Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.
Ouch.
I'm glad I'm not facing that regularly. I'd probably begin by approaching the matter with Meltaguns. The -1 Damage hurts, but Meltaguns will help overcome it. Assaulting them doesn't completely work, but it will stop them from unloading [since you have to unload before you move], so I can see it as a last resort if you have a big squad.
13 wounds is also an unfortunately magical number where, instead of needing three solid meltagun wounds to take it out, you need four, and doubly unfortunate that the shield kicks that up to five. Dominions in a Immolator can probably do it, with 7 shots between them, but it's going to be close.
Shadowswords and Falchions are probably a must-have in the matchup.
Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.
I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.
There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.
Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.
Ouch.
Yeah, that's not the IG I'm losing to. I might ALSO lose to your proposal, but it would be more of a game, I think.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's not really tailored looking at it again. Lots of shots IS super useful in 7th. The land raider makes me nervous with all the Eldar mech in my area. It's like fething 6th ed all over again. How do I stop conscripts and wave serpents? I probably can't with BA.
It stops conscripts, but I can't help you with wave serpents.
I don't know what they do. There are 3 or 4 Eldar players I've seen about, but all of them are running either Harlequins or Ynnari DE+Harlequins.
Wave serpents have two heavy weapon mounts, carry 10 Eldar dudes, T7 *13*W, 3+ armor and has a shield that gives all damage -1 damage to a min of 1. And has <fly> keyword. So you can't turn them off by assaulting them. So after you assault them and do basically no damage, they move away and fry you some more. The Eldar might or might not get out and fry you even more as well. Why they gave it a shield AND 13 wounds, I have no idea.
Not to mention what's riding inside has basically melta flamers and 3 wounds a pop.
Nah it's d3 auto hit str 10 ap-4 1 damage. It's super deadly though.
Conscripts in a tourney list would only exist as a ground presence for Vultures/Vendettas, anyway.
I have no idea where you're getting this. It's so not true, at all.
There are a variety of guard armies because guard is totally OP. Manticore spam / Wyvern spam is common enough, too.
Let me put it this way: If I wanted to pull out all the stops, I'd play a list consisting of Vultures, Stormtrooper Command Squads, maybe a Vendetta, and either Conscripts or Guardsmen for turn-1 board presence. I'm actually leaning towards Guardsmen over conscripts for this purpose, because each guard squad on the board allows for another Stormtrooper Command Squad in deepstrike.
Yeah, that's not the IG I'm losing to. I might ALSO lose to your proposal, but it would be more of a game, I think.
Well, of course you might also lose to and with my proposal, but it shouldn't be a guaranteed loss. It should be closer to 50/50, skewed slightly depending on deployment zones. Vanguard Strike and Search and Destroy certainly favor the Space Marines, Spearhead Assault and Hammer and Anvil certainly favor the guard, and I think there's a slightly advantage to the Space Marines on Dawn of War and Frontline Assault, but not a massive one.
Manticore/Wyvern/Pask/Punisher spam is common because it's easy to get a lot of those thing. I don't know anyone who is willing to buy 3 Vultures and 50 plasmagun stormtroopers on the drop of a hat. I see Guard Stormtrooper drop around, and it's somewhat scary, but they're only half committed to it since nobody can afford or is willing to chase the newest and hottest thing, which makes it easier to deal with. We already all have lots of conscripts and artillery and tanks, and have been running this list for 3 editions, and it's passably good but not the best of the best, so we're all running it.
Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.
Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.
Tyranid mass melee drop makes for a close, if somewhat repetitive and dry game. Berzerker Boxes makes for a similar game, and can be very swingy based on a few die rolls from observation.
Conscript-Artillery sits somewhere just above most 'casual' lists, but well enough below everyone's 'cheese' lists.
Martel732 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote: Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.
Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.
Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.
Necrons that pack a squad of flayed ones and a command barge should get a fairly reliable first turn charge with a CP reserved for a reroll.
20 Flayed Ones will make minced meat out of conscripts in a single turn. They might not kill all of them, but they will reduce them to ineffectiveness.
You could also hit them with MWBD + Tesla Immortals, but that's nowhere near effective enough to kill a big blob.
You could also get a full warrior squad into rapid fire range, but doing that leaves you open to a conscript counter-charge if you don't roll well, which leads me to believe that your local necron player is talking about flayed ones.
Of course, necrons also have one of the best sniper units in the game with deathmarks. Because they can deepstrike with rapid fire sniper weapons, you cannot hide your commissar from them. Not and have your conscripts actually do their job.
Necrons have a fair number of advantages against conscript spam.
Xenomancers wrote:Harliquens are probably the only army that gives IG any trouble. Because they are extremely OP themselves.
Sisters do to, like a hot knife. According to a local Necron player, so does Necrons.
Necrons that pack a squad of flayed ones and a command barge should get a fairly reliable first turn charge with a CP reserved for a reroll.
20 Flayed Ones will make minced meat out of conscripts in a single turn. They might not kill all of them, but they will reduce them to ineffectiveness.
You could also hit them with MWBD + Tesla Immortals, but that's nowhere near effective enough to kill a big blob.
You could also get a full warrior squad into rapid fire range, but doing that leaves you open to a conscript counter-charge if you don't roll well, which leads me to believe that your local necron player is talking about flayed ones.
Of course, necrons also have one of the best sniper units in the game with deathmarks. Because they can deepstrike with rapid fire sniper weapons, you cannot hide your commissar from them. Not and have your conscripts actually do their job.
Necrons have a fair number of advantages against conscript spam.
Forgeworld. The searchlight we're talking about is the Sabre Defense Searchlight. It's 20 points. Select a friendly [Regiment] Infantry unit and an enemy unit, the nominated friendly unit gets +1 to hit firing at the enemy unit. It doesn't actually work on artillery and AA guns, which is silly, because it's literally one of those searchlights you see in the Battle of Britain that are used to mark targets for AA guns, so instead of buffing Hydras and such, they're buffing Conscripts in a way nobody ever intended. Think of it this way: for 20 points, you can turn a Conscript unit into a Guardsman unit. Considering it would ordinarily cost 50 points to do this, you can see why Sabres are kind of OP. It also can turn Guardsmen into Veterans, but Veterans are already 20 points more than Guardsmen. Veterans can be buffed to be the ultimate sharpshooters.
The little sabre lights are in a weird position. When they first were released for this edition, they could buff everything, and it was realized that you could get a BS2+ Twin Punisher Vulture. As far as buffing Leman Russes and Guardsmen goes, it's literally the same price as actually buying them a ballistic skill increase, and it seems fair if you're using it on artillery units and heavy weapons teams too. Until you start using it on Baneblades and Vultures and Vendettas, and now you have a problem. So they removed it's ability to buff vehicles, which leaves the only thing that it can actually buff and not have been less cost-effective than just buying another unit as Conscripts, which in turn is making it still OP because it gives Conscripts a 50 point upgrade for 20. In this capacity, it's also usually going to be better than Markerlights, which is another problem.
The local necron player said he uses something with the Deceiver, Monolith, Night Scythe, and Zandrekh to achieve turn-1 charges everywhere.
The local necron player said he uses something with the Deceiver, Monolith, Night Scythe, and Zandrekh to achieve turn-1 charges everywhere.
Yeah. I tend to no play against forgeworld, which means that any math involving searchlights has a problem: Not every opponent is going to let you use them.
Some people, like me, won't because Forgeworld has a history of producing even more broken crap than GW does.
Others won't because they know it can either give them and advantage, or negate one of yours (WAAC players).
I don't count searchlights, at the moment, because being able to use them at all is up to your opponent.
And I feel that if conscripts are OP, bringing FW into the conversation is just disingenuous.
Also, yes. The Deceiver can allow you to mass deepstrike. If you're running a basic phalanx it's possible to get two full warrior blocks with cryptek support into rapid fire range at the beginning of turn one. On top of which, the C'Tan are beatsticks.
Also, if he really wants to, the deceiver himself can kill 1/6th of a conscript squad by himself every turn, and there's nothing you can do about it short of killing him.
Marmatag wrote: The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.
So are conscripts and artillery.
If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.
Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?
And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.
And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.
That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee. They're not to tough [and without Orders and Searchlights, they're not too killy], for their points, other units out there are just as tough for their cost, and sometimes pack even more firepower. You're not upset at those units, though, because they don't get in the way of deepstrikers and turn-1 melee troops,
So that's the way I see it, and that's why it's hard to be civil. Conscripts aren't the only unit out there that has this toughness-per-point and firepower-per-point combination, and none of the other ones are a source of complaints. The source of complaints is about how they take up space, and because they take up space, they serve as an obstruction to a strategy that would otherwise, and classically did but never should have, wiped everybody off the table.
Marmatag wrote: The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.
So are conscripts and artillery.
If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.
Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?
And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.
And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.
That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee. They're not to tough [and without Orders and Searchlights, they're not too killy], for their points, other units out there are just as tough for their cost, and sometimes pack even more firepower. You're not upset at those units, though, because they don't get in the way of deepstrikers and turn-1 melee troops,
You're skipping a critical step in your analysis, but at least you aren't being dismissive and providing fairly specific information.
Marines, at least BA, can't get the boltguns in range intact. And if they do manage for one blob, by the time they redeploy for the second, the whole list is crippled by the other 1500 pts of IG. Wyverns and Manticores are undercosted, which snowballs with the conscripts also being undercosted, imo.
Marmatag wrote: The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.
So are conscripts and artillery.
If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.
Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?
And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.
And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.
That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee.
You seriously need to stop with this.
Here's what a conscript blob really is.
Cheesemonster S3 T3 BS5+, WS5+ Save 5+ 50 Wounds Special Rule: Kraft Nonsense - any this unit would receive a damage total greater than 1, reduce it to 1. Special Rule: Mac N' Cheese - at the end of every battle round, Cheesemonster suffers 1 mortal wound. Special Rule: String Cheese - You cannot move past Cheesemonster. Cheesemonster is allowed to draw a large section of the board which is considered to be occupied, for the purposes of movement, and deep strike.
Wargear: Cheesemonster has the following gun profile: Cheeze Wizz cannon - 24", Rapid fire 20, strength3, ap0, 1dmg Cheesemonster has the following attack profile in melee: Cheese Knife - 30 attacks, strength user, 0 ap, 1 damage.
Cheesemonster is a troop choice for the purposes of force organization.
Cheesemonster costs 180 points.
For the purposes of scoring and securing objectives, cheesemonster counts as 1 unit, with models equal to his number of remaining wounds.
Martel732 wrote:
You're skipping a critical step in your analysis, but at least you aren't being dismissive and providing fairly specific information.
Marines, at least BA, can't get the boltguns in range intact. And if they do manage for one blob, by the time they redeploy for the second, the whole list is crippled by the other 1500 pts of IG. Wyverns and Manticores are undercosted, which snowballs with the conscripts also being undercosted, imo.
I can go back to being dismissive! At least you realized that the other two units were Tactical Marines and Rubric Marines, respectively.
Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! Remember that only a quarter of a full-melee army can basically obliterate three-quarters to the entirety of a full-shooting army.
Marmatag wrote:
You seriously need to stop with this.
Here's what a conscript blob really is.
Cheesemonster
S3
T3
BS5+, WS5+
Save 5+
50 Wounds
Special Rule: Kraft Nonsense - any this unit would receive a damage total greater than 1, reduce it to 1.
Special Rule: Mac N' Cheese - at the end of every battle round, Cheesemonster suffers 1 mortal wound.
Special Rule: You cannot move past Cheesemonster. Cheesemonster is allowed to draw a large section of the board which is considered to be occupied, for the purposes of movement, and deep strike.
Wargear:
Cheesemonster has the following gun profile: Cheeze Wizz cannon - 24", Rapid fire 20, strength3, ap0, 1dmg
Cheesemonster has the following attack profile in melee: 30 attacks, strength user, 0 ap, 1 damage.
Cheesemonster is a troop choice for the purposes of force organization.
Cheesemonster costs 180 points.
For the purposes of scoring and securing objectives, cheesemonster counts as 1 unit, with models equal to his number of remaining wounds.
I could reduce all of that to the following unit:
Obstacle, 180 points.
This unit has no guns.
This unit does not have a wound count. At the end of any opponent movement phase, she may skip her fight phase [she may still charge] to have this unit removed from the battlefield.
When this unit is set up, mark an area totalling up to 80 square inches. No enemy model can enter this area, and no enemy model may be set up within 9" of this area when deep striking.
And it would achieve precisely the same effect, and be considered OP, even though it does literally nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning.
"Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "
But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.
I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.
"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."
More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.
Martel732 wrote: "Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "
But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.
I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.
"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."
More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.
Oh my god, no you don't. First of all, you have guns on your transports, so they're going to be somewhat depleted once you reach them, unless you're turn-1 charging, in which case your forces are fully intact, and if you're using transports you're almost guaranteed to have a lot of melee troops make it to the front line anyway. Second, with a little bit of choosing targets to actually support your army, even more of them can make it to the front line. Finally, it only takes about 25% of a full-melee force to kill off 75% of a full-ranged force.
I've lived this. You're not quite right. You need a lot more than 25% surviving BA to chop through conscripts and then be able to get to the objective and/or move on to the tanks.
Quit ignoring the temporal component.
Transports reduces the maximum possible chop in your list, and gives optimal targets for IG anti-tank. Stranded squads can be ignored.
Bottom line, mech lists don't have enough bodies, pure infantry take too many losses vs IG. The weapons on transports don't do enough damage to matter when we are talking a target number of at least 100+ wounds.
There is no guarantee of any melee troops ever making it past conscript lines. That's the problem. Every turn, they back out of combat and the other 1500 pts of IG shoot the piss out of you.
Comparing everything by how many bolter shots it takes to kill is a bit disingenuous. How many bolter shots does it take to kill a Rhino? And how many lascannon shots? There are more efficient ways to kill pretty much everything in the game than bolters, but there aren't many efficient ways to kill T3 5+ models quickly. Hence the problem.
We've also been completely ignoring that one of the mandatory HQ picks is probably going to be a chapter master equivalent.
So everything within 6" of that model, which can easily be the bulk of the assault force, is going to have something like an 89% hit rate. And the chapter master himself is probably quite a beatstick.
Tetengo wrote: Comparing everything by how many bolter shots it takes to kill is a bit disingenuous. How many bolter shots does it take to kill a Rhino? And how many lascannon shots? There are more efficient ways to kill pretty much everything in the game than bolters, but there aren't many efficient ways to kill T3 5+ models quickly. Hence the problem.
Look, I'm only using bolters because people keep pimping tac marines as a "solution". Most tac damage comes from bolters. That's why. It's also a pretty efficient weapon vs conscripts.
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ross-128 wrote: We've also been completely ignoring that one of the mandatory HQ picks is probably going to be a chapter master equivalent.
So everything within 6" of that model, which can easily be the bulk of the assault force, is going to have something like an 89% hit rate. And the chapter master himself is probably quite a beatstick.
I have never used Dante. So, they're not mandatory. And they'd just die alongside everyone else anyway. Your hit rate is 0% when you are dead before assault.
If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.
I am assuming this is supposed to be a theoretical "equivalent to conscripts" unit, so with that in mind let me compare it to standard buffed 50 strong conscripts...
100 boltgun shots is 67 hits, 67 hits for 44 wounds, 15 saves means 29 dead. Plus one for morale. 20 are still alive. The unit is not "erased" by "about 100" shots.
If there are basic buffs assumed for this I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm supposed to count as auto-include. For the conscripts, I always count frfsrf and searchlights because that's what I deal with locally (and I always include it in the points cost when I math-hammer).
In return, to kill one space marine, we need 3 wounds before saves, which takes 9 hits, which means 18 shots, which means 9 conscripts at long range.
In the end, compared to a buffed 50 Conscripts for 200 points (taken in pairs for 401 points with all buffs), whatever unit you're describing is about 60% less resilient and 82% less deadly, for 20-35% less points. Conscripts are way, WAY more efficient than whatever it is you're describing here.
They literally cannot be targeted by shooting until every last model in your assault force is dead, including the Rhinos. The chapter master is going to be the very last thing to die.
If you spent half the time thinking of a way to make your list work that you spend moping about it not working, maybe you would have already fixed your list by now!
5+ armor in a 3pt model is another part of the problem.
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ross-128 wrote: They literally cannot be targeted by shooting until every last model in your assault force is dead, including the Rhinos. The chapter master is going to be the very last thing to die.
If you spent half the time thinking of a way to make your list work that you spend moping about it not working, maybe you would have already fixed your list by now!
Unlikely. I spend a lot of time list building. In fact, I'm doing it right now.
If you only compare the durability of conscripts and MEQ when fired upon by lasguns or bolters you are doing the MEQ a favor. MEQ are considerably less durable per point vs things with AP like heavy bolters, gauss flayers or heavy phosphor blasters. The most efficient guns vs conscripts are way less efficient than the most efficient guns vs MEQ.
They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.
If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.
They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.
Buff them with the +1 hit servator from the rhino primaris so that they hit on 2's. Bring an additional captain for lulz. You don't need them to get close. You just need them to get in range. They will win the 13-24" shooting war.
They push out crap tons of basic shots. They wield assault 6 weapons in one hand, and assault d6 launchers in the other, ignore the -1 for advancing and firing (IIRC), or shoot twice per turn. They've got mobility, range, and volume. On top of which they're on par with termies (3+ sv, 2 wounds, T5) so you just park an apothecary next to them to preserve their numbers.
And this isn't a squad you bring specifically to counter conscripts. This is a squad you bring to the table in order to counter everything. They're purpose specific, but that purpose is killing infantry. So they're very generally useful.
Martel732 wrote: If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.
If only Fragioso dreadnoughts could ride in drop pods. In tandem with this, if only drop pods could get you within flamer range.
They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.
Buff them with the +1 hit servator from the rhino primaris so that they hit on 2's. Bring an additional captain for lulz. You don't need them to get close. You just need them to get in range. They will win the 13-24" shooting war.
They push out crap tons of basic shots. They wield assault 6 weapons in one hand, and assault d6 launchers in the other, ignore the -1 for advancing and firing (IIRC), and shoot twice per turn. They've got mobility, range, and volume. On top of which they're basically termies (2+ sv, 2 wounds) so you just park an apothecary next to them to preserve their numbers.
The aggressors only have a 3+ save which is a bummer, T5 is good but doesn't quite make up for it. They will probably outshoot the conscripts themselves but they are going to get hammered by the gunline. Between manticores, heavy bolters in various forms, scions dropping in with plasma guns etc they can probably kill at least 10 aggressors in a turn.
The aggressors only have a 3+ save which is a bummer, T5 is good but doesn't quite make up for it. They will probably outshoot the conscripts themselves but they are going to get hammered by the gunline. Between manticores, heavy bolters in various forms, scions dropping in with plasma guns etc they can probably kill at least 10 aggressors in a turn.
Yeah. Get my codex tomorrow, so there are bound to be errors here and there. I fixed a few of them after reading the 3D's article.
Still, Aggressors are one of your anti-infantry units as SM. Along with Assault Squads, Vanguard Vets (the CC ones...not the shooty ones), and devastators with heavy bolters.
I've been playing around with the idea of an Imperial Fist list built around Centurion Devastators or Aggressors as the primary Anti Infantry squad of a heavy support detachment (that 3-pred stratagem is sexy). Since cover is apparently impossible to find in this edition, I was thinking about actually putting a fortification into the list and just slap down an Aegis Defense line. Then park the Devastators/Aggressors in it for cover backed up with a Rhino Primaris, a Captain, and an apothicary.
So I'd have a 2+ or 3+ sv unit in cover that ignore cover themselves and get an additional +1 cover save when being shot at with -1 AP weapons. The rhino would buff whomever needed it the most that turn.
Either a pred for AV work (I was thinking of running two quad las preds for AV fire, but with the tank/monster hunter strat I'm looking at a trio of pred AC/Dual las preds instead. Either way I can just have both turret weapons available on all the tanks, so I can test both configurations). Or the devs/aggressors for AI firepower.
I'll know more once I get my codex tomorrow morning.
Marines seem to be the army that was having trouble chewing through conscripts, but they have AI firepower available. It's just not that popular.
Martel732 wrote:"Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "
But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.
I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.
"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."
More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.
I equate mass melee to mass deepstrike, because inherently a melee list must either be mass deepstrike [tyranids] or rhino rush [berzerkers], which works on a similar principle.
Because of the nature of the rules surrounding melee troops, if slow mass-melee lists had a chance against gunlines, then fast mass-melee lists would be absolutely wrecking everyone and everything. I already hate playing against mass-melee armies because it's boring.
It's entirely possible to confront and defeat IG gunline with mass melee, but you have to be really good at mass melee. Tyranids, for example. The Space Marines are not really good at mass melee. They cannot dump a metric crap-ton of Genestealers and Hormagaunts everywhere. Even Chaos can't rely exclusively on berzerkers to win the game, but supported berzerkers, and I don't just mean with buff-dispensing characters, but different units working together to protect each other and enhance each other's ability, definitely can work.
A blend of shooting and melee will have to carry the day for Space Marines, which is why the list I suggested earlier is built the way it is.
Finally, there are Dreadnought Drop Pods. They come from the same place as Repressors and Searchlights, so use those if your heart is set on dreadnoughts.
Marmatag wrote:I can handle if Guard end up being a hard counter to marines.
But then, I would expect that some Xenos armies rip Guard to shreds with the same ease that Guard rips me to shreds.
Allow me to present to you Sisters and Harlequins, who both make a absolute wreck of Gunline Guard. And, as mentioned, the Necron player doesn't seem to find it too hard. Also, mass Genestealers/Hormagaunts is pretty damn threatening.
It's also not all marines, it's specific marine lists. I presented a marine list that isn't Mass Stormravens or Guilliman&Friends, that absolutely stands a fair chance of beating a Gunline Guard list.
It's not specific armies that gunline guard counters, it's specific strategies. It banks on melee units and deepstrike units paying a premium for those abilities, which are insanely powerful, and then negating the ability for less than it costs to fully commit to exploiting those abilities, therefore turning the match into a weight-of-fire contest, which, because outlay for mobility is minimal, it will win.
Armies like Sisters and Harlequins, who put minimal investment into real toughness and instead invest in mobility and firepower, can make a mess of gunline guard, because the guard isn't able to turn off their abilities. GOing out to play a games, I'll explain this in more detail later.
SilverAlien wrote: I think guard claiming anyone pays a minimum for abilities is hilarious tbh.
It's true. We don't pay for that which we don't use. Neither should you, but from what I see, a lot of other player do.
If you've paid for an ability, you're not getting the maximum possible value out of your unit if the ability doesn't get used. Conscripts prevent the optimal use of an extremely powerful and fairly costly ability, thus giving the guard and effective points advantage.
That's why I propose lists that I do to fight them. I try to avoid paying for useless features, and also try to avoid paying for features that can be easily negated by enemy unit placement and board arrangement.
I faced an Astra Militarum player on the weekend who fielded 40 conscripts. They weren't a problem for me at all, despite me running a very sub-optimal Death Guard list. 2 castings of Plague Wind killed over 30 of them (across 2 turns) with bolters cleaning up the rest. I lost in the end, but it was more due to my list having no answer to Wyverns than because conscripts actually done anything.
I see their use, and I see them being very very durable per-point but I just didn't find them threatening at all. Maybe I'm just ignorant though (I'm not what you'd call a "good" player )
Fhanados wrote: I faced an Astra Militarum player on the weekend who fielded 40 conscripts. They weren't a problem for me at all, despite me running a very sub-optimal Death Guard list. 2 castings of Plague Wind killed over 30 of them (across 2 turns) with bolters cleaning up the rest. I lost in the end, but it was more due to my list having no answer to Wyverns than because conscripts actually done anything.
I see their use, and I see them being very very durable per-point but I just didn't find them threatening at all. Maybe I'm just ignorant though (I'm not what you'd call a "good" player )
If they didn't have, at the very least, a commissar and orders from an officer, they weren't really the conscripts people are complaining about. 40 Conscripts all by themselves make a good speed bump but they're not really overpowered.
The fact that it was 40 and not 50 in the unit also makes me think your opponent was thinking of them as filler and not as the monster they're capable of becoming.
Martel732 wrote: If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.
Perhaps in a teardrop shape? Nah, get real. This would be op as hell.
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