I played Tyranids yesterday. I almost lost, but he made a small mistake. His Mawlocs were very underwhelming.
More importantly, he dropped a squad of Genestealers from a Tyrannocyte, and completely wiped out the conscripts in a single turn. The fact that that was the conscripts dying instead of the Shadowsword or Leman Russes was vital, considering those Genestealers, slightly depleted, later did 12 wounds to the Shadowsword in a single round of close combat.
10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts
For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.
WingedCamel wrote: I will agree to an extent that certain weapons should do more damage vs hordes (namely things that used to be blasts), but if you are losing to conscripts, you are losing to all hordes.
Well, no most of us aren't. Other horde armies are far easier to manage. They lack the sheer fortitude of conscripts. It takes half as much fire power to kill 200 ork boyz compared to conscripts, making ork hordes manageable. Similar statements can be made about tyranid hordes.
Brimstone horrors are a bit of a doozy but personally I've had more luck against them as morale issues tend to even things out I've found. But this is the only horde army that comes close.
WingedCamel wrote: Sorry. Conscripts don't need a nerf. Here is why you are wrong if you think they do.
They are not that good.
If you think conscripts are strong because of cost+ unit synergy you are inexperienced in 40k or are not used to fighting hordes.
30 termagants with devourers can churn out 90 s4 shots at 18 inches at BS4+ for 240 pts. Within synapse they ignore the morale phase.
Ork boyz can pump out similar shot count or bury an opponent with an obscene amount attacks that can hit on 2s. Oh and their mobs are fearless too.
30 boyz with choppas and sluggas will typically also kill a leman russ equivalent in a single assault.
On paper the termagants are quite scary.
Really though the issue is that they are a genuine glass cannon. Yes they do 75% more damage than conscripts to say marines at 18" sweet spot. But they have just 36% of the conscripts resilience. Since it is 8 points for a T3, 6+ save.
In other words I hope you get to go first, get into range and shoot because almost everything bar lascannons is going to be shooting you back very efficiently.
A boltgun is just 6% more likely to kill a conscript than an Ork boy despite boys costing twice as much. Yes you can buff this with various things but that adds to the cost.
So put it this way to clear the termagaunts you need about 1/3rd of the firepower necessary to clear the conscripts. To clear boys (who are frankly not that good without Da Jump getting them across the table) you need half the firepower.
Its therefore very easy to shoot both off the table. Its considerably more difficult to shoot down conscripts.
This would be fine if conscript firepower was dreadful but it isn't.
10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts
For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.
Because no ones going to take just 28 bolter marines without anything else. A more realistic squad is Devastators with missile launchers or even heavy bolters. The comparison given is usually between a unit combo which is considered good, vs. Basic troops with no upgrades.
Besides, the upgunned Tactical Squad starts doing casualties from farther away, and can better damage the artillery, etc. after the conscripts are cleared.
WingedCamel wrote: Sorry. Conscripts don't need a nerf. Here is why you are wrong if you think they do.
They are not that good.
If you think conscripts are strong because of cost+ unit synergy you are inexperienced in 40k or are not used to fighting hordes.
30 termagants with devourers can churn out 90 s4 shots at 18 inches at BS4+ for 240 pts. Within synapse they ignore the morale phase.
Ork boyz can pump out similar shot count or bury an opponent with an obscene amount attacks that can hit on 2s. Oh and their mobs are fearless too.
30 boyz with choppas and sluggas will typically also kill a leman russ equivalent in a single assault.
On paper the termagants are quite scary.
Really though the issue is that they are a genuine glass cannon. Yes they do 75% more damage than conscripts to say marines at 18" sweet spot. But they have just 36% of the conscripts resilience. Since it is 8 points for a T3, 6+ save.
In other words I hope you get to go first, get into range and shoot because almost everything bar lascannons is going to be shooting you back very efficiently.
A boltgun is just 6% more likely to kill a conscript than an Ork boy despite boys costing twice as much. Yes you can buff this with various things but that adds to the cost.
So put it this way to clear the termagaunts you need about 1/3rd of the firepower necessary to clear the conscripts. To clear boys (who are frankly not that good without Da Jump getting them across the table) you need half the firepower.
Its therefore very easy to shoot both off the table. Its considerably more difficult to shoot down conscripts.
This would be fine if conscript firepower was dreadful but it isn't.
Conscript firepower is dreadful, without orders.
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.
I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.
There ability to put a wound on anything sucks. At least the bolter will generally wound on a 4. lasguns are always on a 5 and a lot of times a 6 vs any sort of Creature/Vehicle.
putting 100 shots into something and maybe getting 1-2 wounds on it is terrible.
I think the biggest issue is how much the comissar supports them. There are still armies that don't have access to sniper rules, so have no way of taking out support characters. Even if they changed it to killing d3 conscripts instead of 1, that would be an improvement.
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.
I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?
Well tac marines certainly aren't good, that's for sure, although the intercessors are even worse. Still, the conscripts are about 80-90% as good at shooting at an average target as guardian defenders, necron warriors or kabalite warriors. I don't think that warrants being described as dreadful.
10 man marine squad with Plasma, combi-plasma, missile = 183 points. Gets you 7.64 kills (by my math)
So 2 such squads kill about~15 conscripts
For those same points I could have 28 rapid fire marines. Which kill 17conscripts. So you are losing point for point by having special weapons, because they are largely wasting efficiency on the conscripts.
Wasted efficiency on the conscripts, sure. But they're also what are going to win you the game against almost every other army, barring Orks and Nids.
You really can't exclude them. Especially now that you can split fire.
That's why you can't change the conscript's points cost or durability - just say 'they can't have orders' or something like that and live with it.
We concluded above that without orders they are at least as shooty as space marines with bolters, while only costing the same if you were to run one commissar per 30 conscripts. I don't see how that can be considered dreadful.
I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?
Well tac marines certainly aren't good, that's for sure, although the intercessors are even worse. Still, the conscripts are about 80-90% as good at shooting at an average target as guardian defenders, necron warriors or kabalite warriors. I don't think that warrants being described as dreadful.
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?
Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.
The other big use for conscripts, besides screening, is holding and contesting objectives since it's very, very difficult for any opponent short of orks or nids to get more warm bodies in range than a conscript squad. Tac marines completely ignore that, and are capable of charging them and not dying.
It might not sound like much, but if you're using tactical objectives it can win you the game.
I thought tactical marines without upgrades were considered to be one of the worse troops units out there?
Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.
The other big use for conscripts, besides screening, is holding and contesting objectives since it's very, very difficult for any opponent short of orks or nids to get more warm bodies in range than a conscript squad. Tac marines completely ignore that, and are capable of charging them and not dying.
It might not sound like much, but if you're using tactical objectives it can win you the game.
I've not heard of this thing but that's a ding on the utility of Conscripts once again.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
None of them are supposed to be the firepower base for their respective armies, I'm comparing troop choices that could fulfill the same role as conscripts. They all pay a certain price for their durability, which is why the conscripts are seen as a problem given that they are at least twice as durable as guardian defenders per point.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
I guess you can just say all troops are dreadful, take all stormravens all the time, but fortunately you can buy a cheap HQ who doubles their firepower.
Which moves their firepower up from being dreadful to whatever you consider twice the damage output of a tactical marine to be.
Why are troops being compared to other troops even at this point? The FOC doesn't exist anymore, so it's not like you have some sort of requirement to take two troop choices.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
None of them are supposed to be the firepower base for their respective armies, I'm comparing troop choices that could fulfill the same role as conscripts. They all pay a certain price for their durability, which is why the conscripts are seen as a problem given that they are at least twice as durable as guardian defenders per point.
Except the Guardian Defenders still have better base firepower and access to WAY better fire power, as well as the Battle Focus special rule. So... yes, the unit that has shittier firepower is more durable. I think that's called balance.
Tyel wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
I guess you can just say all troops are dreadful, take all stormravens all the time, but fortunately you can buy a cheap HQ who doubles their firepower. Which moves their firepower up from being dreadful to whatever you consider twice the damage output of a tactical marine to be.
Yes, you're right, I think we're in agreement that orders are busted on conscripts. In fact I think I said that in the post you quoted originally?
EDIT: It was the one Sossen quoted, but yes, I am in complete agreement that with orders, Conscripts are busted. So take orders away! That's not really their function in the army anyways.
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
Necron warrior firepower is "meh"? WTF are you talking about?
Necron warriors + My Will Be Done is a downright scary amount of firepower. And it's all at -1 AP to boot, and can be doubled at close range!
Guardian Defenders are really only taken for their heavy weapon platforms, and only because they're more durable than war walkers.
Kabalite Warriors simply can't fit in their transports, and don't get access to all their weapons unless they take full squads. This makes them overshadowed by trueborn who get (iirc) all their weapon options with smaller numbers that are raider compatible.
I still think it's dreadful, considering Guardian Defenders, Necron Warriors, or Kabalite Warriors are not the paragons of firepower in this game either. Guardian Defenders are Eldar conscript-spam units, Necron warriors pay a ton for durability but their firepower is meh, and no one is praising Kabalite warriors as the core source of Dark Eldar firepower.
What you're saying is essentially "Well, a T-34 is in the same league as a T-55 so it has adequate firepower right?" when the T-14 Armata is rolling around.
Necron warrior firepower is "meh"? WTF are you talking about?
Necron warriors + My Will Be Done is a downright scary amount of firepower. And it's all at -1 AP to boot, and can be doubled at close range!
Guardian Defenders are really only taken for their heavy weapon platforms, and only because they're more durable than war walkers.
Kabalite Warriors simply can't fit in their transports, and don't get access to all their weapons unless they take full squads. This makes them overshadowed by trueborn who get (iirc) all their weapon options with smaller numbers that are raider compatible.
I have fought two necron players and never once been impressed with their firepower. Usually it's to the point that I shove one of my superheavies into melee with them just to shut them up while shooting everything else, unless they don't get close enough, but then they're not in rapid fire and I can truly ignore them.
Arandmoor wrote: Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.
I thought someone said they got a price increase as well in the codex? If not, it looks like balance might be addressed for at least some armies. Could be IG/SoB are strong now because they will be stuck using that index for a lot longer than other armies. Who knows?
Arandmoor wrote: Their new special rule makes them quite a bit better, actually. Being able to capture any objective on the table by being in range of it, regardless of what models your opponent has on top of it unless they are ALSO playing space marines is pretty freaking powerful for 13 ppm.
I thought someone said they got a price increase as well in the codex? If not, it looks like balance might be addressed for at least some armies. Could be IG/SoB are strong now because they will be stuck using that index for a lot longer than other armies. Who knows?
S4 AP-1 is pretty punchy against anything less than T8, mostly because that AP-1 goes a long way. Necrons don't put out a lot of dice but they do make up for it in quality. By the same token, while they don't have a wide selection of anti-tank most of what they do have is S9-10 and AP-4.
daedalus wrote: Why are troops being compared to other troops even at this point? The FOC doesn't exist anymore, so it's not like you have some sort of requirement to take two troop choices.
Because the most durable bubblewrap units available to an army are almost exclusively troop choices, afaik, apart from the now nerfed razorwing flocks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except the Guardian Defenders still have better base firepower and access to WAY better fire power, as well as the Battle Focus special rule. So... yes, the unit that has shittier firepower is more durable. I think that's called balance.
It would be balanced if the defenders were even close to as durable, as is conscripts have at least 200% of their durability and 80% of their firepower.
Well, Scarabs are fast attack. At 4.3 points per T3/6+ wound they're a bit on the pricey end at first glance (why do they have BS3+ when they don't have a ranged weapon?), but they're effectively immune to morale just due to how their squad size lines up with their leadership, the special rule on their weapon allowing them to always wound on 5+, and the ability for Spiders to reinforce them on a 2+ roll makes them way scarier than they look.
Also, I don't see anything saying that Scarabs can only be reinforced once per turn, which is an unusual omission for a reinforcement rule...
Conscripts are supposed to be a decent screen for a tank.
Guard BS is (mostly) 4+. You reduce any tank to 50% it is hitting on 5s and snapshooting if it moves.
You reduce it to 25% it is snapshooting, or not moving at all because it won't hit anything if it moves.
Guard tanks are useless the instant they are locked in combat. They NEED a screen. (They cannot fall back and shoot).
Again, if you can't figure out how to thin a t3 5+ model horde enough to declare a charge on the tank they are defending, improve your game.
Conscripts are still soldiers. Giving them orders makes sense. They are not some rag tag militia. They are literally just NEW soldiers. And the literal first thing a soldier is trained to do? Before he can shoot or drill? Follow orders. First and foremost.
Conscripts have not changed other than being able to fall back and shoot (with orders) Where were all the complaints about them in 7th edition?
A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
Guard units are almost universally T3. You can kill their characters quite easily with snipers, mawlocs, wave serpent shield explosions, assassins. Between da jump and advancing+ assaulting with abilities ork turn 1 assaults are very possible.
There is also no shortage of powers or abilities to make guard shooting less effective.. Plan for all scenarios, and if you expect conscript spam, plan for a way to deal with it in a way that is still useful even if you DON'T run into conscripts.
WingedCamel wrote: A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?
Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.
WingedCamel wrote: Conscripts are supposed to be a decent screen for a tank.
Guard BS is (mostly) 4+. You reduce any tank to 50% it is hitting on 5s and snapshooting if it moves.
You reduce it to 25% it is snapshooting, or not moving at all because it won't hit anything if it moves.
Guard tanks are useless the instant they are locked in combat. They NEED a screen. (They cannot fall back and shoot).
Again, if you can't figure out how to thin a t3 5+ model horde enough to declare a charge on the tank they are defending, improve your game.
Conscripts are still soldiers. Giving them orders makes sense. They are not some rag tag militia. They are literally just NEW soldiers. And the literal first thing a soldier is trained to do? Before he can shoot or drill? Follow orders. First and foremost.
Conscripts have not changed other than being able to fall back and shoot (with orders) Where were all the complaints about them in 7th edition?
A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
Guard units are almost universally T3. You can kill their characters quite easily with snipers, mawlocs, wave serpent shield explosions, assassins. Between da jump and advancing+ assaulting with abilities ork turn 1 assaults are very possible.
5+ Armor and T3 received HUGE boosts in survivability in 8TH. Conscripts themselves haven't changed at all, but the playground has indeed
There is also no shortage of powers or abilities to make guard shooting less effective.. Plan for all scenarios, and if you expect conscript spam, plan for a way to deal with it in a way that is still useful even if you DON'T run into conscripts
WingedCamel wrote: A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?
Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.
I don't think that's going to work out.
Wow, 5 squads of 10 Marines each with no special weapons can't wipe a whole squad in one round of shooting!
WingedCamel wrote: A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?
Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.
I don't think that's going to work out.
Wow, 5 squads of 10 Marines each with no special weapons can't wipe a whole squad in one round of shooting!
Game's over guys.
It was his suggestion, not mine. It's not just 50 marines, it's 1000 pts of marines killing 70 pts worth of conscripts (including support overhead).
WingedCamel wrote: A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?
Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.
I don't think that's going to work out.
Wow, 5 squads of 10 Marines each with no special weapons can't wipe a whole squad in one round of shooting!
Game's over guys.
It was his suggestion, not mine. It's not just 50 marines, it's 1000 pts of marines killing 70 pts worth of conscripts (including support overhead).
And yet you're the one who has attempted to turn it outrageous.
Technically those intercessors would eventually win if they stayed at 30" though. Because if nothing else, the Conscripts wouldn't be able to shoot back.
Plinking away at them from 30" is the safest way to kill them, but it's not necessarily the fastest.
It would be balanced if the defenders were even close to as durable, as is conscripts have at least 200% of their durability and 80% of their firepower.
By what metric? I would hope that between the heavy weapons platforms, farseer/warlock psychic powers, and the rending special rules on shuriken weapons that guardians would be somewhat on par.
And the guardians' ability to advance and shoot without penalty is a pretty massive advantage, and not really mathhammerable.
WingedCamel wrote: A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So one of your suggestions is to sit 30'' away and shoot conscripts with intercessors?
Lets get some math on that: 1000 points of intercessors, that is to say 50 of them, firing at a squad of 50 conscripts from 30'' away. How many do they kill? 18.5 on average. 19.5 with morale casualties.
I don't think that's going to work out.
What about their grenade launchers? They're going to make a huge difference at 30"
(I think I'm thinking of the correct unit here...)
Arandmoor wrote: What about their grenade launchers? They're going to make a huge difference at 30"
(I think I'm thinking of the correct unit here...)
Correct, they do get the option with the new codex but I have yet to see a pts cost for it. It definitely helps a bit, assuming that it is free it increases their damage output by 20% vs conscripts.
Not necessarily intercessors that was just an example. Inceptors with assault bolters will rip them apart on their arrival with even more effectiveness than a leman russ punisher.
There are plenty of options for killing conscripts.
Best of all, the conscripts won't even get to shoot back.
The playground has indeed changed. I think GW has made many dumb moves in 8th, including boltguns not getting any sort of rend. But as stated above, there are still plenty of ways to get rid of them.
I also believe artillery should be more devastating to infantry than it currently is.
Don't get me wrong- in certain aspects, hordes ARE hard to deal with unless planned for. But I don't think the answer is to nerf the units, but rather to buff other units to be more effective against hordes.
It is pretty silly that a single basilisk (or similar) will only ever be able to kill 6 infantry troops- and that is with a ton of luck as well.
My personal take for a solution? Units that fire dX shots, add X more for every 5 or 10 models in the unit being shot at.
Kanluwen wrote: And yet you're the one who has attempted to turn it outrageous.
What's outrageous about my post? It provides some guidance to those who have not yet figured out why a T3 5+ model is so difficult to handle.
Well, first off you didn't attempt to actually address his point.
Intercessors, at 30" away with a Rapid Fire weapon that can reduce their armor save by -1, can effectively kite or simply outrange Conscripts.
Are they going to wipe them in a turn? No. But that's not what he said. He said that Intercessors can kill them.
You, for all intents and purposes, then just chose to throw numbers out there and pretend that those Intercessors wouldn't have anything with them like the Conscripts will.
Are Conscripts cheap? Yup! But right now, fielding Conscripts means that you're going to have other points immediately tied up in Commissars and Platoon/Company Commanders.
Kanluwen wrote: And yet you're the one who has attempted to turn it outrageous.
What's outrageous about my post? It provides some guidance to those who have not yet figured out why a T3 5+ model is so difficult to handle.
Well, first off you didn't attempt to actually address his point.
Intercessors, at 30" away with a Rapid Fire weapon that can reduce their armor save by -1, can effectively kite or simply outrange Conscripts.
Are they going to wipe them in a turn? No. But that's not what he said. He said that Intercessors can kill them.
You, for all intents and purposes, then just chose to throw numbers out there and pretend that those Intercessors wouldn't have anything with them like the Conscripts will.
Are Conscripts cheap? Yup! But right now, fielding Conscripts means that you're going to have other points immediately tied up in Commissars and Platoon/Company Commanders.
Yeah that's a solid plan. bring 1000 points of Intercessors to "kite" 150 points of conscripts.
You either have the ranged firepower to ignore conscripts and kill the weapons behind them or you have the assault to wipe them in 2 turns at the most.
If you are taking intercessors to kill SOME conscripts per turn you are handicapping yourself. You dedicate yourself one way or another.
Furthermore you aren't paying for a ADL anymore which is coincidentally almost the same cost as a Commissar and PCC.
A big thing for Marine players to remember is that they're paying for units that are strong in both shooting and assault.
So if you try to pretend that you're Tau and just shoot IG off the table? You're wasting half your points. Yes, I know this means Marine units spend a lot of time wasting their points.
Shoot AND assault. Be mobile, be aggressive, concentrate fire. Spending 3x a unit's value to remove it quickly IS worthwhile no matter what that unit is, because that means that unit can't fight back. Denying an enemy unit the ability to fight back at all is extremely valuable.
Kanluwen wrote: Intercessors, at 30" away with a Rapid Fire weapon that can reduce their armor save by -1, can effectively kite or simply outrange Conscripts.
Are they going to wipe them in a turn? No. But that's not what he said. He said that Intercessors can kill them.
I agree, an intercessor can on average kill 2 conscripts in 5 turns by kiting. That's not going to be efficient or convenient enough to win a game vs an AM player with 100 conscripts.
Kanluwen wrote: You, for all intents and purposes, then just chose to throw numbers out there and pretend that those Intercessors wouldn't have anything with them like the Conscripts will.
I'm not saying that intercessors won't have support in a regular army, but I assumed that his suggestion was supposed to be the unit which kills the conscripts efficiently.
Kanluwen wrote: Are Conscripts cheap? Yup! But right now, fielding Conscripts means that you're going to have other points immediately tied up in Commissars and Platoon/Company Commanders.
I included the cost of the support in the casualty cost, counted as though killing all the conscripts means killing their support characters as well. The overhead is roughly 20-30% per conscript, depending on how you build your list.
WingedCamel wrote: I think GW has made many dumb moves in 8th, including boltguns not getting any sort of rend
No. That was definitely not a dumb move. If I were to list things that space marines definitely did NOT need, ap -1 on freaking bolters is right near the top of the list.
No. That was definitely not a dumb move. If I were to list things that space marines definitely did NOT need, ap -1 on freaking bolters is right near the top of the list.
From a fluff perspective, a rend on bolters made perfect sense. Though with the advent of bolt rifles and new vehicle rules I understand why they don't for balance sake.
I do however think they should be more effective than what they are against light infantry.
Perhaps every wound of 6 makes the enemy re-roll successful saves? Does 2 damage? Or generates an extra shot?
ross-128 wrote: Spending 3x a unit's value to remove it quickly IS worthwhile no matter what that unit is
That's only true if your enemy is spending 4x the cost of your unit to kill your stuff in the same time frame. That's not normally the case.
I keep popping into this thread now and again to scan it but so far every single "counter" to conscripts I've seen has involved spending more points than the conscripts spent or assuming silly things like these last few posts that say 30" is outside of Guard's range to retaliate (hint, they move 6" and shoot 24"), or people are skewing it because of arbitrary time frames being taken into account.
The counter to something should beat that thing at an equal points cost with infinite turns, at the very least. Right?
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
However much 10 rangers costs you then. Rangers are craftworld, right? If so, I suspect it's less than 401 points. You have a 60% chance of killing the commissar turn one. Bonus: You get to take a Wave Serpent because of them. Take 2x5 squads even, because then you can take two wave serpents.
Why are even even looking at intercessors, and why are we looking at 70 points of conscripts. You are aware that, considering a Commissar is 31 points and a CC is 20 points, the cheapest Conscripts and their support can be is 111 points. If we don't want orders, it's 91 points.
And that's for 20 conscripts. It takes about 3 boltgun shots from a unsupported Space Marine to kill a Conscript, which in turn means that it would take 60 space marines, running 780 points, at long range, to kill 20 conscripts in one turn. Of course, it's half that at rapid-fire range, which isn't particularly unfair. Remember, we're using a unit with generally poor firepower to try to kill a unit centered on being resilient.
It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why are even even looking at intercessors
Because they were suggested here:
WingedCamel wrote:A 5+ save is hardly resilient. Bolt rifles make them a 6+ and can shoot well out of conscript range.
So I replied to explain why that's not a good idea.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:and why are we looking at 70 points of conscripts. You are aware that, considering a Commissar is 31 points and a CC is 20 points, the cheapest Conscripts and their support can be is 111 points. If we don't want orders, it's 91 points.
I agree, but 70 pts is roughly what 19.5 killed conscripts out of a 100 conscripts+commander+commissar package represent in pts value. We could call it 78 pts if it were 50 conscripts+commissar+commander if you like.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
However much 10 rangers costs you then. Rangers are craftworld, right? If so, I suspect it's less than 401 points. You have a 60% chance of killing the commissar turn one. Bonus: You get to take a Wave Serpent because of them. Take 2x5 squads even, because then you can take two wave serpents.
I told myself I'd math-hammer out whatever I was given, but this is painful so I'll keep it short...
I'll assume the Eldar goes first, and I'll assume that they kill the commissar (lol at 60% chance for 200 points to kill 31 points in one turn as if it's a good thing).
Great, now the conscripts at 24" get 200 shots. I'll assume cover for the rangers. 66 shots hit (searchlights and cloak cancel out), 4+ to wound so 33 wounds, 11 of which make it through saves (3+ save due to cloak in cover). The rangers are dead with room to spare.
I would add the wave serpent's damage (you can only afford one, btw), but this is already over.
Edit: Ninja edit to fix skipped step in mathing it out
200 shots? At 24" you are looking 100 shots if all are in range to hit and can see, that and subtract for casualties taken now do to being shot up and losing more to morale.
Your math is flawed. FRFSRF only works at 12" range to get that Rapid Fire 2.
ITT: I can't put 50 wounds on this unit in one round of shooting so it should be nerfed and not reflect the fluff.
I will still maintain that weapons that used to be blasts should do more damage for every 10 models in a squad. (The demolisher does this, but it still sucks.)
Just as an example,
If it fires d6 shots, it should add d3 more shots for every 10 models in the unit. (resolve the d6 first, then the extra d3s)
Another thought, some armies perhaps need more crowd control options this edition, since blasts and templates are not at all what they used to be.
NenkotaMoon wrote: 200 shots? At 24" you are looking 100 shots if all are in range to hit and can see, that and subtract for casualties taken now do to being shot up and losing more to morale.
Your math is flawed. FRFSRF only works at 12" range to get that Rapid Fire 2.
frfsrf doubles shots at range 24" as well. Also, He specified that he shot at the commissar with the rangers (else why have them), so the wave serpent would have to kill an entire unit of 50 with 2 of its cannons, then another 5 or so of the other unit with its other cannon, before it would allow a single Ranger to survive. That seemed unlikely enough that I didn't math it out.
NenkotaMoon wrote: 200 shots? At 24" you are looking 100 shots if all are in range to hit and can see, that and subtract for casualties taken now do to being shot up and losing more to morale.
Your math is flawed. FRFSRF only works at 12" range to get that Rapid Fire 2.
frfsrf doubles shots at range 24" as well. Also, He specified that he shot at the commissar with the rangers (else why have them), so the wave serpent would have to kill an entire unit of 50 with 2 of its cannons, then another 5 or so of the other unit with its other cannon, before it would allow a single Ranger to survive. That seemed unlikely enough that I didn't math it out.
Rank fire will give a mob of 50 conscripts 100 shots at 24 inches.
If you allow yourself to be shot at by that many conscripts on turn 1 you have made a grave tactical error.
And even then- 100 shots from conscripts against infantry, averages 32 hits, 10-16 wounds, which typically results in 4 to 8 being unsaved.
Kill any of the conscripts leadership and you reduce that effectiveness even further. To the point of not even having to do that much damage to the conscripts at all.
Snipers/assassins/infiltrators/ anything that can deal damage to characters is absolutely essential this edition.
My lists bring 22 sniper rifles because I realize this.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
Kanluwen wrote: So they've used up an HQ choice and placed him within 6"(Conscripts can't take Vox-Casters) of 100 models armed with Lasguns.
Additionally, once those 100 models have received FRSRF, they cannot get any more Orders issued to them.
Remind me again of the problem here?
The fact that the 30 point commander just double the damage of two 150 point units. A 30 point upgrade spread between two units that double their firepower is a steal.
Kanluwen wrote:
So they've used up an HQ choice and placed him within 6"(Conscripts can't take Vox-Casters) of 100 models armed with Lasguns.
Additionally, once those 100 models have received FRSRF, they cannot get any more Orders issued to them.
Remind me again of the problem here?
The officer doesn't have to be within 6'' of every model in the conscript units to issue an order to them, only one model from said unit needs to be within 6'' of the commander. The conscripts will receive an order each turn based on what is most beneficial to them.
WingedCamel wrote: Rank fire will give a mob of 50 conscripts 100 shots at 24 inches.
If you allow yourself to be shot at by that many conscripts on turn 1 you have made a grave tactical error.
The example package has 100 conscripts.
It would be difficult to place rangers in range of the commissar at the back of the blob without risking reprisal from the blob itself.
That's two separate units of Conscripts.
Unless you have two separate Officers issuing FRSRF, only one of them can benefit from it at a time.
They have a single company commander issuing two orders per turn.
Ranger sniper rifles have 36 inch range, and a commisar has a 6 inch bubble. It is impossible to move 100 conscripts to get within firing range for shots back first turn even on a perfectly terrainless table. 100 dudes take up a huge amount of area and are hard to position on a small squad rangers. You would be lucky to get more than half your conscripts into extreme range by turn 2 unless you spent a turn and orders to move into position. The conscripts are going to be bleeding casualties the whole time and likely lose their commander or commisar before getting into effective range. They probably end up killing the rangers but unlikely to do anything to the vehicle.
No. That was definitely not a dumb move. If I were to list things that space marines definitely did NOT need, ap -1 on freaking bolters is right near the top of the list.
From a fluff perspective, a rend on bolters made perfect sense. Though with the advent of bolt rifles and new vehicle rules I understand why they don't for balance sake.
I do however think they should be more effective than what they are against light infantry.
Perhaps every wound of 6 makes the enemy re-roll successful saves? Does 2 damage? Or generates an extra shot?
No. They just don't. Marines are fine where they are from a balance perspective. They don't need any of that, fluff or no.
Hell, I'm not too thrilled that they're getting all these new primaris units in the first place, because they're the absolutely last faction that actually needs anything new. They've already got 2-5 times as many options as some other codicies. This is just more of the "Marines are popular because they get stuff, and they get stuff because they're popular" degeneration cycle the game's been stuck in for the past fifteen goddamn years!
-1 AP bolters can get stuffed. Everything space marine that's "not perfect" can get stuffed. Other armies need the attention more. IncludingIG.
WingedCamel wrote: Rank fire will give a mob of 50 conscripts 100 shots at 24 inches.
If you allow yourself to be shot at by that many conscripts on turn 1 you have made a grave tactical error.
The example package has 100 conscripts.
It would be difficult to place rangers in range of the commissar at the back of the blob without risking reprisal from the blob itself.
Thank you. All the conscript defenders in this thread are insistent that their 24" range may as well be a 2" range. Apparently the rangers in this example found cover, at a height sufficient to see over the ranks of conscripts, in a straight line long enough to hold 10 of them, within 36" of the commissar behind the conscripts but over 30" away from conscripts themselves.
Seeing as the IG knew their opponent had rangers, he must have been very generous in lining himself up the exact distance from the obvious sniper perch to make sure he doesn't give himself a turn 1 shot after getting sniped.
Ranger sniper rifles have 36 inch range, and a commisar has a 6 inch bubble. It is impossible to move 100 conscripts to get within firing range for shots back first turn even on a perfectly terrainless table. 100 dudes take up a huge amount of area and are hard to position on a small squad rangers. You would be lucky to get more than half your conscripts into extreme range by turn 2 unless you spent a turn and orders to move into position. The conscripts are going to be bleeding casualties the whole time and likely lose their commander or commisar before getting into effective range. They probably end up killing the rangers but unlikely to do anything to the vehicle.
Sorry I didn't notice another page had started... but are you even looking at your own numbers? The commissar can be 6" behind the BACK of the conscript blob. That means the BACK of the conscript blob is 30" away from the rangers, which means after a 6" move the BACK of the conscript blob is in range on turn 1. Literally every single guardsman can shoot on turn 1 every time.
Honestly I can't believe we're spending this much time discussing the obviously-awful counter list. I thought I was posting a win-win because either I would show objectively that conscripts are OP with math, or I'd finally learn what units I should take to beat them. But instead we're looking at a list that can't possibly win and the numbers that say it can't win are just being ignored :(
*EDIT: Because I called it a "commissar blob" for some reason.
WingedCamel wrote: Rank fire will give a mob of 50 conscripts 100 shots at 24 inches.
If you allow yourself to be shot at by that many conscripts on turn 1 you have made a grave tactical error.
The example package has 100 conscripts.
It would be difficult to place rangers in range of the commissar at the back of the blob without risking reprisal from the blob itself.
Thank you. All the conscript defenders in this thread are insistent that their 24" range may as well be a 2" range. Apparently the rangers in this example found cover, at a height sufficient to see over the ranks of conscripts, in a straight line long enough to hold 10 of them, within 36" of the commissar behind the conscripts but over 30" away from conscripts themselves.
Seeing as the IG knew their opponent had rangers, he must have been very generous in lining himself up the exact distance from the obvious sniper perch to make sure he doesn't give himself a turn 1 shot after getting sniped.
Ranger sniper rifles have 36 inch range, and a commisar has a 6 inch bubble. It is impossible to move 100 conscripts to get within firing range for shots back first turn even on a perfectly terrainless table. 100 dudes take up a huge amount of area and are hard to position on a small squad rangers. You would be lucky to get more than half your conscripts into extreme range by turn 2 unless you spent a turn and orders to move into position. The conscripts are going to be bleeding casualties the whole time and likely lose their commander or commisar before getting into effective range. They probably end up killing the rangers but unlikely to do anything to the vehicle.
Sorry I didn't notice another page had started... but are you even looking at your own numbers? The commissar can be 6" behind the BACK of the commissar blob. That means the BACK of the commissar blob is 30" away from the rangers, which means after a 6" move the BACK of the commissar blob is in range on turn 1. Literally every single guardsman can shoot on turn 1 every time.
Honestly I can't believe we're spending this much time discussing the obviously-awful counter list. I thought I was posting a win-win because either I would show objectively that conscripts are OP with math, or I'd finally learn what units I should take to beat them. But instead we're looking at a list that can't possibly win and the numbers that say it can't win are just being ignored :(
The 100 conscripts don't all snap into range together when the lead rank gets to 24 inches, it's an excellent illustraition on the failings of math hammer. The poor manueverability of conscripts is a very real limitaion on the tabletop. You can't abstract away those limitations and assume full strength optimal conditions for the calculations. Small units and vehicles are vastly less impacted by this effect because they act in a more binary fashion, either fully in range or not.
WingedCamel wrote: Rank fire will give a mob of 50 conscripts 100 shots at 24 inches.
If you allow yourself to be shot at by that many conscripts on turn 1 you have made a grave tactical error.
The example package has 100 conscripts.
It would be difficult to place rangers in range of the commissar at the back of the blob without risking reprisal from the blob itself.
That's two separate units of Conscripts.
Unless you have two separate Officers issuing FRSRF, only one of them can benefit from it at a time.
They have a single company commander issuing two orders per turn.
Ranger sniper rifles have 36 inch range, and a commisar has a 6 inch bubble. It is impossible to move 100 conscripts to get within firing range for shots back first turn even on a perfectly terrainless table. 100 dudes take up a huge amount of area and are hard to position on a small squad rangers. You would be lucky to get more than half your conscripts into extreme range by turn 2 unless you spent a turn and orders to move into position. The conscripts are going to be bleeding casualties the whole time and likely lose their commander or commisar before getting into effective range. They probably end up killing the rangers but unlikely to do anything to the vehicle.
The officers can be set up quite far back with a conga line from each squad, forcing the rangers into range of most of the conscripts. You don't need to kill more than 8 rangers to be sure that the other two to flee. Which would represent ~75 conscripts with FRFSRF. As for the wave serpent I'm not sure since it depends on loadout and positioning. It kills ~5-7 conscripts (depending on range) per turn including morale casualties assuming that it doesn't move and brings a twin scatterlaser. 50 conscripts would deal 2-3 wounds to it at 24'' assuming that the searchlight is gone.
Sorry I didn't notice another page had started... but are you even looking at your own numbers? The commissar can be 6" behind the BACK of the conscript blob. That means the BACK of the conscript blob is 30" away from the rangers, which means after a 6" move the BACK of the conscript blob is in range on turn 1. Literally every single guardsman can shoot on turn 1 every time.
Honestly I can't believe we're spending this much time discussing the obviously-awful counter list. I thought I was posting a win-win because either I would show objectively that conscripts are OP with math, or I'd finally learn what units I should take to beat them. But instead we're looking at a list that can't possibly win and the numbers that say it can't win are just being ignored :(
The 100 conscripts don't all snap into range together when the lead rank gets to 24 inches, it's an excellent illustraition on the failings of math hammer. The poor manueverability of conscripts is a very real limitaion on the tabletop. You can't abstract away those limitations and assume full strength optimal conditions for the calculations. Small units and vehicles are vastly less impacted by this effect because they act in a more binary fashion, either fully in range or not.
I thought the all caps was enough but I guess not, so I went back and bolded it this time too. To be fair I maybe confused you by calling it a commissar blob instead of a conscript blob lol. Fixed that.
The officers can be set up quite far back with a conga line from each squad, forcing the rangers into range of most of the conscripts. You don't need to kill more than 8 rangers to be sure that the other two to flee. Which would represent ~75 conscripts with FRFSRF. As for the wave serpent I'm not sure since it depends on loadout and positioning. It kills ~5-7 conscripts (depending on range) per turn including morale casualties assuming that it doesn't move and brings a twin scatterlaser. 50 conscripts would deal 2-3 wounds to it at 24'' assuming that the searchlight is gone.
lol after all this you made me realize I skipped a step with my math earlier. I'm surprised no one has actually called me on THAT part
It doesn't change that the Rangers will get one-shot even from long range and it doesn't change that the Serpent will lose horribly to the conscripts when it's all by itself, but still... oops.
The officers can be set up quite far back with a conga line from each squad, forcing the rangers into range of most of the conscripts. You don't need to kill more than 8 rangers to be sure that the other two to flee. Which would represent ~75 conscripts with FRFSRF. As for the wave serpent I'm not sure since it depends on loadout and positioning. It kills ~5-7 conscripts (depending on range) per turn including morale casualties assuming that it doesn't move and brings a twin scatterlaser. 50 conscripts would deal 2-3 wounds to it at 24'' assuming that the searchlight is gone.
As has been repeatedly stated, if you're going to conga line your officers "quite far back" so they cannot be sniped, you're going to also be greatly reducing the firepower you have available to bring to bear against your opponents.
There are also certain units that can take advantage of said conga line through various kinds of deepstrike and outflanking moves to kill you anyway unless you both conga line AND bubble-wrap your officers. And good luck getting anything useful done with that level of baby sitting.
Arandmoor wrote: As has been repeatedly stated, if you're going to conga line your officers "quite far back" so they cannot be sniped, you're going to also be greatly reducing the firepower you have available to bring to bear against your opponents.
There are also certain units that can take advantage of said conga line through various kinds of deepstrike and outflanking moves to kill you anyway unless you both conga line AND bubble-wrap your officers. And good luck getting anything useful done with that level of baby sitting.
Three conscripts would put your commissar 12" behind the bulk of your forces. If you want to wrap the commissar , ignore his radius, assume the tail end of each line is slightly behind him, four conscripts for each fifty conscript unit is sevenish inches behind. Or run them in two ranks, with a single tail for each unit and the commissar sandwiched between, that's 16 inches apart which still ensures every point between them is safe from deepstrike (which is also why it's actually not hard to screen from deepstriking without spreading your units across the entire board but that's a different story).
It's not even a little hard to do, it's absurdly easy unless you try to send the two squads to different corners of the map or something. You can still easily get things done because again, you are guard. You shoot and table enemies while sitting still.
Also, if you say "no castling doesn't work" you realize the person whose actually been consistently winning with guard on these forums has reported multiple battles where she was sitting castled up and tabled her opponents? That's how guard wins.
The officers can be set up quite far back with a conga line from each squad, forcing the rangers into range of most of the conscripts. You don't need to kill more than 8 rangers to be sure that the other two to flee. Which would represent ~75 conscripts with FRFSRF. As for the wave serpent I'm not sure since it depends on loadout and positioning. It kills ~5-7 conscripts (depending on range) per turn including morale casualties assuming that it doesn't move and brings a twin scatterlaser. 50 conscripts would deal 2-3 wounds to it at 24'' assuming that the searchlight is gone.
As has been repeatedly stated, if you're going to conga line your officers "quite far back" so they cannot be sniped, you're going to also be greatly reducing the firepower you have available to bring to bear against your opponents.
There are also certain units that can take advantage of said conga line through various kinds of deepstrike and outflanking moves to kill you anyway unless you both conga line AND bubble-wrap your officers. And good luck getting anything useful done with that level of baby sitting.
1. It is ludicrously easy to have a model inside a character's aura without majorly impacting the unit when it is part of a 50 freakin-model unit. If you know the opponent doesn't have some flank/deep strike-surprises for you, you can easily accomplish this by sacrificing the firing range of a mere 2-4 conscripts. If I daisy-chain back to auras with 5 dudes, I'm sure you can do it with 50.
2. You get to know what your opponent has before deployment. If they do have some deep strikyness to them, 4-8 models to both chain back and also wrap the characters does the trick, and if it's the case of two units of scripts, you could just use 4 from each unit and have the last dude from each meet the other right behind the officers. Remember that you can't just pistol a light amount of dudes out of the way before charging. If one conscript is in the way, then all 50 might as well be, because they aren't going to take that guy out for wounds.
I really really do not understand the people who are trying to argue that it's not possible to use a 50 man unit to both shield a couple 1-inch base characters while still being in position to shoot 24".
Arandmoor wrote: As has been repeatedly stated, if you're going to conga line your officers "quite far back" so they cannot be sniped, you're going to also be greatly reducing the firepower you have available to bring to bear against your opponents.
There are also certain units that can take advantage of said conga line through various kinds of deepstrike and outflanking moves to kill you anyway unless you both conga line AND bubble-wrap your officers. And good luck getting anything useful done with that level of baby sitting.
Three conscripts would put your commissar 12" behind the bulk of your forces. If you want to wrap the commissar , ignore his radius, assume the tail end of each line is slightly behind him, four conscripts for each fifty conscript unit is sevenish inches behind. Or run them in two ranks, with a single tail for each unit and the commissar sandwiched between, that's 16 inches apart which still ensures every point between them is safe from deepstrike (which is also why it's actually not hard to screen from deepstriking without spreading your units across the entire board but that's a different story).
It's not even a little hard to do, it's absurdly easy unless you try to send the two squads to different corners of the map or something. You can still easily get things done because again, you are guard. You shoot and table enemies while sitting still.
Also, if you say "no castling doesn't work" you realize the person whose actually been consistently winning with guard on these forums has reported multiple battles where she was sitting castled up and tabled her opponents? That's how guard wins.
I have only played a few games of 8th thus far, but I have won every game with guard I have played. I do not use conscripts and I do not use gun lines. Well, partially true. I have a few heavy weapons squads and snipers hang out in the back field.
I push the assault forward with vehicles shoot where possible turn 1 (punishers, hellhounds, valkyries, etc). Advance with bullgryn backed up by a command squad with medipack to draw some fire. I might even use some artillery to help do some clear cutting from the enemy deployment zone if I have the points.
Truth is though, everything I keep in the back is basically expendable.
Once the area is thinned out I will make use of grav chute insertion or any deep strikes I have with me. It sometimes makes me wait for my second turn. Oddly enough, I prefer to go second so that my opponent can move around and space things out a bit.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
However much 10 rangers costs you then. Rangers are craftworld, right? If so, I suspect it's less than 401 points. You have a 60% chance of killing the commissar turn one. Bonus: You get to take a Wave Serpent because of them. Take 2x5 squads even, because then you can take two wave serpents.
I told myself I'd math-hammer out whatever I was given, but this is painful so I'll keep it short...
I'll assume the Eldar goes first, and I'll assume that they kill the commissar (lol at 60% chance for 200 points to kill 31 points in one turn as if it's a good thing).
Great, now the conscripts at 24" get 200 shots. I'll assume cover for the rangers. 66 shots hit (searchlights and cloak cancel out), 4+ to wound so 33 wounds, 11 of which make it through saves (3+ save due to cloak in cover). The rangers are dead with room to spare.
I would add the wave serpent's damage (you can only afford one, btw), but this is already over.
Edit: Ninja edit to fix skipped step in mathing it out
I was brief in my response earlier because I didn't have the time to fully talk through it. This kind of exercise is going to always be doomed to fail, because we can't ever just look at a handful of units. We need to look at an entire list, because, in all honesty, you're probably going to have to smash most of your entire list into this to make it go away. That's really not a problem though.
Some things to talk about first though:
- Searchlights don't stack, so they're still 5+ at best with the searchlights, and they're not going to get even that.
- My estimate of 60% for the snipers was just straight up regular shooting with taking no special rules into consideration. Command point rerolls and the special rule that gives an extra mortal wound were not taken into account. You have a 69% chance of getting a non-zero number of mortal wounds and an 8% chance of killing the commissar outright through mortal wounds alone, so that actually boosts your odds up closer to 75% or so, and maybe a little higher especially when you consider command points.
Here's my proposed list @ 1500 points (because we need to pick a point limit also):
Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings
- Lasblaster
10 x Rangers
10 x Swooping Hawks
- Exarch with sunrifle
10 x Swooping Hawks
- Exarch with sunrifle
10 x Swooping Hawks
- Exarch with sunrifle
Rangers deploy to where they can hit the commissar. Both SH squads deep strike as close as they can get, and I'm going to assume at least one of them can get into cover. Maybe two. Autarch moves with the SH, or with the WS if you are more worried about vehicles (which sounds like it doesn't happen). Wave Serpents should be pretty close to in range to shoot with bright lances during deployment, but move if they must.
Rangers pop Commissar (75% or higher), Swooping hawks squads each have a 67% chance to kill 9-18 or so conscripts. More if the Autarch is with them. Sunrifle makes conscripts BS 6+ for the return fire, and you hit each squad with at least one sunrifle. Wave serpents focus fire as needed. If they moved up, you can split fire the Shuriken cannons into the conscripts for more damage, while the bright lances put some hurt on the tanks. Focus fired, they have a good chance of getting at least 12 wounds on a non-LR. I'd have to crunch the exact numbers again to give more specific odds. The ideal I suppose would be to get EVERYTHING into the Autarch bubble, though I don't know how viable that would be in reality, which is what I try to concern myself with as much as I can, which may be more or less than other people.
By my estimate, and if you balance the damage between the two conscript squads, they're probably at half strength after morale, give or take. There's probably other prioritization of targets and optimizations you can make, but without knowing the other list, I can't suggest anything better at this point.
Guard turn: some number of nebulous IG points (you should build an IG list, it's fun!) does something, and then conscripts shoot back. We have about 50 conscripts with FRFSRF total between the two squads, so that's the classic 200 shots everyone keeps talking about. They're probably going to shoot at our SH, so lets see how they do: They have a 66% chance of killing 2-6 SH in cover and a 67% of killing 6-12 SH out of cover, and remember, they have three squads to shoot at, and they don't know how that split is going to pan out, so even if they try to optimise all the squads dead, odds are it's not going to happen that way and they're going to leave a handful. I don't know what the rest of the army is, so I can't really say what they do.
Turn 1 end: You've killed about 180-240 points (of the conscripts and commissar alone) + whatever your bright lances did, and they've killed likely about 230-270 points of your swooping hawks (of conscripts alone) + whatever their other stuff did. Yeah, they've likely removed more points, which looks bad on paper, but I really think Eldar are in a better position at this point. I'd have to see the other list to know for sure though.
Turn 2: Rangers put damage on the company commander. They might not kill him outright, because he has an additional wound, but they can try. Remaining swooping hawks drop grenades on conscripts, and then fire into them further if necessary, with the Autarch trying to ruin BS for tanks (admittedly unlikely). They then assault priority targets that Eldar can't afford to be firing next turn, and the commander if possible. Remaining portions of army continues shooting tanks as needed. Ideally, Autarch hangs out with WS for the reroll 1 bubble.
Again, any attempts at extrapolating outcome at this point fall flat because I don't know what the other 1000 points on the table looks like, which could make a HUGE difference either way. As a few notes:
- All my probabilities came from my mathhammer script. I added up the odds of each outcome and tried to get to the point of likelihood closest to 65-67 or so percent. Since conscripts are more dice rolls than stats, they have a wide spread of outcomes that are all 4-6% each, so there's a pretty wide range of unpredictability (which I think is the REAL source of a lot of people's issue with them even if they don't realize it)
- I was also pretty generous to the conscripts in that I assume the return fire would be exactly 200 shots, when, after casualties and the consideration that they were probably spread out across the entire board edge to keep you from getting too close to the rest of the army, they'd probably have a hard time getting every single one of them in rapid fire range.
This was actually kind of fun. Please do come up with that list. I look forward to playing them against each other.
So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
... can we start turning our energy to find out if conscripts would be less OP without orders?
The last couple of pages has been about 'conscripts with orders kill everything and are too efficient' which I think Katherine proved like... pages ago.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
However much 10 rangers costs you then. Rangers are craftworld, right? If so, I suspect it's less than 401 points. You have a 60% chance of killing the commissar turn one. Bonus: You get to take a Wave Serpent because of them. Take 2x5 squads even, because then you can take two wave serpents.
I told myself I'd math-hammer out whatever I was given, but this is painful so I'll keep it short...
I'll assume the Eldar goes first, and I'll assume that they kill the commissar (lol at 60% chance for 200 points to kill 31 points in one turn as if it's a good thing).
Great, now the conscripts at 24" get 200 shots. I'll assume cover for the rangers. 66 shots hit (searchlights and cloak cancel out), 4+ to wound so 33 wounds, 11 of which make it through saves (3+ save due to cloak in cover). The rangers are dead with room to spare.
I would add the wave serpent's damage (you can only afford one, btw), but this is already over.
Edit: Ninja edit to fix skipped step in mathing it out
I was brief in my response earlier because I didn't have the time to fully talk through it. This kind of exercise is going to always be doomed to fail, because we can't ever just look at a handful of units. We need to look at an entire list, because, in all honesty, you're probably going to have to smash most of your entire list into this to make it go away. That's really not a problem though.
Some things to talk about first though:
- Searchlights don't stack, so they're still 5+ at best with the searchlights, and they're not going to get even that.
My math didn't include the searchlights stacking. It includes one searchlight for each squad, which would just cancel out the Ranger's -1 to hit.
As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
... can we start turning our energy to find out if conscripts would be less OP without orders?
The last couple of pages has been about 'conscripts with orders kill everything and are too efficient' which I think Katherine proved like... pages ago.
Basically that boils down to: how good should conscripts be at screening, what level of overall staying power should such a unit have. Which involves a lot of back and forth with little progress.
I'm almost at the point of agreeing conscript's staying power is fine mysel. I do think some other armies need buffs for their chaff units and we need a few additional counter options spread across most armies. More ways to target characters, some weapons which scale up with unit size a bit better, and some more options for AP -2 anti infantry weapons. I think that's the more pressing issue.
Neferhet wrote: at this point of the discussion (23 pages) you guys would have been better served by playing games on vassal to prove everyone's point.
Well, I doubt anyone would actually be anymore convinced by this. I also doubt anyone person has spent more than the length of one game reading/responding to posts in this thread, and it was probably during a period they couldn't really play but could get online.
Arguing about 40k is basically what I do when I want to play 40k but, for whatever reason, can't.
As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
You're going to find instances where the game breaks at particular low level point values for just a handful of units though. Do the same thing at the minimum points needed to field a single IK. IK should always win. Or a Stormlord. Stormlord will definitely always win (and probably beats conscripts).
Hell, in 6th, I could run a list at 500 points of genestealer spam that I never once failed to table an opponent back when I was dipping my toes in Nids.
As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
You're going to find instances where the game breaks at particular low level point values for just a handful of units though. Do the same thing at the minimum points needed to field a single IK. IK should always win. Or a Stormlord. Stormlord will definitely always win (and probably beats conscripts).
Hell, in 6th, I could run a list at 500 points of genestealer spam that I never once failed to table an opponent back when I was dipping my toes in Nids.
400-500 point games are a little different than 1500. A 400-500 point list is very rarely going to have the tools to deal with a spam army, because the resources are spread thin as is. You can't really build proper TAC lists at those point values, so it'll usually amount to whose gimmick works better in that matchup. At 1500 a TAC list is going to be a more reasonable option.
I can think of an army at 393 points that beats 401 points of conscripts - the Macharius Vulcan and a searchlight.
Conditions: The Macharius starts at its max range, firing from turn 1. The conscripts do not have cover. The conscripts advance every turn, to 24" to shoot, with an average of 20" of movement until the turn they are in range to account for the Move Move Move! order.
Every turn it fires, if it doesn't move (which it won't), it does: 16.66 conscripts per turn of damage with its main gun 2.2 conscripts with its heavy bolters 1.7 with its twin stubber
That's 20.56 conscripts per turn - 21.56 after morale.
With 20" of movements, the conscripts will have to move twice to get in range, and will not be able to fire the second time, so we can assume that the Malcador gets 3 shots before the Conscripts can open fire, since it is fewer drops. This means that 64.68 conscripts will be dead before they can fire. The remaining squad will have 35.32 Conscripts left.
They FRFSRF at 20" (the range they are at now) - 1.96 wounds to the Macharius Vulcan.
The Vulcan kills 21.56 more conscripts. There are now 13.96 conscripts left. They move and advance into Rapid Fire, then get the Forward, For the Emperor order to shoot: They do 0.775 wounds.
The Macharius Vulcan eliminates the conscripts and is free to mop up the enemy characters and searchlights for the rest of the game, with 19.264 wounds left.
As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
You're going to find instances where the game breaks at particular low level point values for just a handful of units though. Do the same thing at the minimum points needed to field a single IK. IK should always win. Or a Stormlord. Stormlord will definitely always win (and probably beats conscripts).
Hell, in 6th, I could run a list at 500 points of genestealer spam that I never once failed to table an opponent back when I was dipping my toes in Nids.
I don't know what an IK costs off the top of my head, but my WK is easily destroyed by 502 points worth of lascannon teams. Because everything should fall to an army built directly to counter it, at really any points value.
Did your opponents build specifically to beat your genestealers or were you up against TAC lists?
400-500 point games are a little different than 1500. A 400-500 point list is very rarely going to have the tools to deal with a spam army, because the resources are spread thin as is. You can't really build proper TAC lists at those point values, so it'll usually amount to whose gimmick works better in that matchup. At 1500 a TAC list is going to be a more reasonable option.
But I'm not asking for a 500 point TAC list that can also handle conscripts. I'm saying to build a list as a direct counter to conscripts and who cares if it beats anything else. If that's impossible for certain armies to do, conscripts are objectively OP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can think of an army at 393 points that beats 401 points of conscripts - the Macharius Vulcan and a searchlight. .
My original request was for an Eldar Craftworld army. I don't even know what a Macharius Vulcan is, tbh, so it doesn't help me with my problem. Call me selfish, but I'm not surprised that SOMETHING in all of GW's line-up can beat a conscript blob - I just want something I can use.
Also, just reading what you wrote, it appears you're also counting on conscripts being unreasonably far away. In a standard deployment, the furthest away you can hope to get (you have single deployment remember so conscripts can just place searchlights first and wait to see where you are) is 36" (48" board minus 12" deployment). Presumably your model has width as well, so it's actually a few inches short of 36". Turn 1 conscripts move 6" and advance (I don't know what "move move move" order is but they don't even need it). They are now 30" minus advance move minus width of model away from you. Turn 2 they can move 6" and shoot with at least the front rank, plus how ever many ranks of men the advance move and your model width got them. If they rolled well on the advance move, they'll be in rapid fire range on turn 3.
Sure, if you're playing a <500 point game on a 6x4 table, and you're doing hammer+anvil set up, and you both deploy as far away as possible from each other, a lot of artillery choices are probably doable. I'm looking for realistic conditions though.
Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
I don't know what an IK costs off the top of my head, but my WK is easily destroyed by 502 points worth of lascannon teams. Because everything should fall to an army built directly to counter it, at really any points value.
It does, just maybe not in your army. The things already mentioned would work. I've not done the math, but genestealers sound like they'd do the job. And there could be things the Eldar codex I'm honestly unaware of that might work. I don't know it nearly well enough to know for sure. Comparatively, I'm not sure how 502 points of most other non-guard armies would deal with a WK. And back on page 2 or 3 of this, I showed how even 1000 points of pure melta in a SM army (including transport to get it there) wasn't enough to guarantee a kill on a IK in a turn, so even points for even points when the game is scaled to be the size of the nastiest thing on the table isn't really appropriate.
Did your opponents build specifically to beat your genestealers or were you up against TAC lists?
I don't remember their lists, but I know they were basically all marine players (and one SoB I think) so their basic unit was built specifically to shoot genestealers to death. I recall them having flamers. And they all knew what I was doing after the first time, and I was upfront about not altering the list, and they knew when they were playing me, so I'd assume they were building for me, though I don't think I ever asked.
I think the game just genuinely doesn't scale properly below maybe 1000 points, and that's the bare minimum. More realistically, I'd guess maybe 1500 is when it starts getting closer to evening out, hypercompetitive spam armies notwithstanding.
This is going to sound weird, but I trust GW to find a fix for Imperial Guard.
The Raven Spam / Flyer Spam fix was well done. They did it without invalidating any formations, and they did it without nerfing the stats on the fliers themselves, so for those of us who aren't cheesing, they're still useful.
I hope they use a relatively light touch, and bring IG back in line with everyone else.
Marmatag wrote: This is going to sound weird, but I trust GW to find a fix for Imperial Guard.
The Raven Spam / Flyer Spam fix was well done. They did it without invalidating any formations, and they did it without nerfing the stats on the fliers themselves, so for those of us who aren't cheesing, they're still useful.
I hope they use a relatively light touch, and bring IG back in line with everyone else.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
Still, 4 war walker would be the most guns you could get on a T6+ chassis for the cost of the conscript blob without searchlights. That's 48 Shuriken Cannon shots*(see Edit below), 32 hits, 27 wounds, 5+15=20 unsaved wounds (5 shots have no saves due to shuriken, 15 more after saves). 20% of the Blob each turn, or 5 conscripts per war walker.
The other direction, 200 shots (no assumptions on who has first turn just yet), 66 hit, 11 wound, 6 wounds after saves. Yes I rounded up from 5.5, but there's also the commander and commissar themselves. It takes exactly 6 wounds to kill a War Walker, and they don't suffer reduced BS before they die, so that would be a critical point.
Assuming the conscripts moved forward 6" each turn, and the walkers moved back 6" each turn, the front line of conscripts would have the walkers pinned into rapid fire range on turn 3 (again, taking a standard 12"/24"/12" deployment).
So... in scenario one I'll weight it towards the conscripts... Assuming the guard move first and they get exactly the six wounds they need to kill a war walker, the war walkers kill 15 in return fire directly. I'll say they split fire and get morale kills on both units, so 17 total dead guardsmen. Turn 2 the guardsmen partially wound a war walker with 83x2=164 shots, and they lose another 17 because there are still 3 walkers. Turn 3, guardsmen are now in rapid fire range and are back up to 66x4=264 shots. Now, not all models are necessarily in rapid fire range yet, so lets say rather than killing off a fresh war walker AND the injured one, which they easily could with those shot numbers, lets say they just kill off a fresh one and leave the injured one. Now the war walkers are killing 10 total conscripts but I'll still give them 2 more for morale in each unit. The next turn the conscripts are definitely all within rapid fire, so a full 52x4=208 shots - more than they had on turn 1! Another full walker is down, and the last one, which has been heavily injured since turn 1, is obviously not making it out of here alive.
I am curious how this goes with Eldar shooting first and also not losing a walker to the first volley! I will do the math on that when I get back from lunch
EDIT: Jeeeeebus for someone who cares about math so much you'd think I'd be less sloppy with it. Each war walker holds two cannons, but I double their shots twice. They should only have 24 shots to start with, so cut down all Eldar damage in half.
As if that wasn't enough, that the searchlights DO work for conscripts targeting vehicles. Up all damage done by conscripts by 50%, and it's no longer remotely close. Back to the drawing board.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can think of an army at 393 points that beats 401 points of conscripts - the Macharius Vulcan and a searchlight. .
My original request was for an Eldar Craftworld army. I don't even know what a Macharius Vulcan is, tbh, so it doesn't help me with my problem. Call me selfish, but I'm not surprised that SOMETHING in all of GW's line-up can beat a conscript blob - I just want something I can use.
Also, just reading what you wrote, it appears you're also counting on conscripts being unreasonably far away. In a standard deployment, the furthest away you can hope to get (you have single deployment remember so conscripts can just place searchlights first and wait to see where you are) is 36" (48" board minus 12" deployment). Presumably your model has width as well, so it's actually a few inches short of 36". Turn 1 conscripts move 6" and advance (I don't know what "move move move" order is but they don't even need it). They are now 30" minus advance move minus width of model away from you. Turn 2 they can move 6" and shoot with at least the front rank, plus how ever many ranks of men the advance move and your model width got them. If they rolled well on the advance move, they'll be in rapid fire range on turn 3.
Sure, if you're playing a <500 point game on a 6x4 table, and you're doing hammer+anvil set up, and you both deploy as far away as possible from each other, a lot of artillery choices are probably doable. I'm looking for realistic conditions though.
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
So you don't think they're OP or good? Fair enough.
ALSO:
Revised math without searchlight, assuming a 6-turn game:
Macharius kills 75 conscripts with its main gun, 10 with heavy bolters, and 8 with heavy stubbers, leaving 7. So it doesn't wipe them out, but it also doesn't die, and you've 3 other units.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
Kind of unfortunate to me, since I was thinking an artillery battery supported by Sabers would be pretty cool. As it is, probably the best thing to use Searchlights on would be plasma vets (either as a veteran squad or command squad), partially because searchlights don't work on scions. Obviously the benefit there is you get a group of plasma guns that are hitting on 2+ and immune to overheating.
Well, or Conscripts, since raising a 50-strong blob to BS4+ could be potentially significant.
Going first definitely makes a huge difference in 8th edition, and it especially makes a huge difference against conscripts. Because an individual conscript model is easy to remove, and each removed model reduces the overall strength of the blob. In the example of the walkers, as you pointed out those walkers can take 5 wounds with no reduction in firepower (which translates to roughly 180 Conscript lasgun shots with no reduction in firepower).
So starting off by lopping 20 models off the blob, and then shredding another 20 on the next turn could result in quite a large swing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So now that we've done the math on it 4 or 5 times and I think everyone can agree Conscripts are OP with orders...
Nope.
I'll believe it if i loose several games in a row to it and can't find a reasonable counter. I also might begin to believe they're OP when they start sweeping tornaments.
Mathammer theoryland isnt going to convince me by itself, especially for such a cumbersome unit.
So you don't think they're OP or good? Fair enough.
ALSO:
Revised math without searchlight, assuming a 6-turn game:
Macharius kills 75 conscripts with its main gun, 10 with heavy bolters, and 8 with heavy stubbers, leaving 7. So it doesn't wipe them out, but it also doesn't die, and you've 3 other units.
I am also in this camp. I don't think conscripts are that good.
For holding objectives? They are fantastic. Their offensive potential laughable.
360+ pts (2x conscript mobs plus supporting characters) will PROBABLY kill a leman russ IF it is in rapid fire range with rank fire.
You can do the same thing for HALF THE POINTS with 2 lascannon squads.
That same conscript mob will also be able to probably out down an ork mob of 30 IF that mob fails morale. (22ish dead orks before morale)
I could do the same damage for around 1/3 the points with mortar squads.
Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad.
They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
WingedCamel wrote: 360+ pts (2x conscript mobs plus supporting characters) will PROBABLY kill a leman russ IF it is in rapid fire range with rank fire.
You can do the same thing for HALF THE POINTS with 2 lascannon squads.
If the conscripts came anywhere near the efficiency of lascannons for anti-vehicle damage I would be very worried. They don't have to be that good to be OP in other regards.
WingedCamel wrote: That same conscript mob will also be able to probably out down an ork mob of 30 IF that mob fails morale. (22ish dead orks before morale)
I could do the same damage for around 1/3 the points with mortar squads.
This math is not correct. You'd need 234 pts worth of mortars to do the same damage as the 100 conscripts outside of rapid fire range vs orks. Of course the mortars have superior range, which most importantly allows them to sit behind conscripts and fire unhindered.
WingedCamel wrote: Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad.
They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
I don't think people have been mentioning rapid fire range lately, I certainly haven't. They don't need it to be effective. The point of showing their potential output is to demonstrate that even in matchups against long-range armies which ignore the conscripts they still put out a lot of damage. If the opponent is trying to kill your conscripts then they will already have made their points back by letting your backline fire unhindered for those turns.
WingedCamel wrote: Most of your "mathhammer" places your unit being shot within rapid-fire range and also assumes you have done zero damage to the conscript squad. They may only be 3 ppm, but every one you kill represents anywhere from 1 to 4 shots being lost by that mob, and you absolutely DO NOT have to kill every single model in the unit to render it useless.
I don't think people have been mentioning rapid fire range lately, I certainly haven't. They don't need it to be effective. The point of showing their potential output is to demonstrate that even in matchups against long-range armies which ignore the conscripts they still put out a lot of damage. If the opponent is trying to kill your conscripts then they will already have made their points back by letting your backline fire unhindered for those turns.
"A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
If that's your definition of a 'lot' of damage, I can see why you would think it takes truly staggering amounts of damage to shift conscripts.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: It doesn't take long for Genestealers and the likes to kill them off. 20x Genestealers with upgrades and a Tyrannocyte to deliver them run 450 points. Between the thingy and the 'stealers, for experience, it's enough to clean out 50 support conscripts, so that's about 3 times the cost of the conscripts to kill them all in 1 turn, which is very fair.
Wait in one turn? The average number of wounds they will deal is 35, including a barbed strangler Tyrannocyte. It's more likely for them to miss the charge from 9" and contribute nothing than it is for them to sweep the unit in a single turn..
50/50 shot of missing charge, since they re-roll failed charges, apparently.
The Tyrannocyte took a couple out, then the Genestealers went in. The 'stealers alone killed 40 or so, thanks to having a lot of attacks that penetrate most of the armor, and generating an additional Mortal Wound from 6's-to-wound. The 'stealers killed just under 40, and the tyrannocyte killed a few more, which brought the total count down to 5 or 6, easily dispatched by the fact that basically half his army was in that combat and still hadn't fought. Fortunately, those 5 or 6 remaining were in front of the Hormagaunts, who were packed into a narrow front, and that prevented them from piling into and destroying my second rank, which would have made the game over very fast. He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
Does it seem fair that he could throw that kind of effort into a squad of conscripts, and not eliminate them? I can't think of anything else in the game that could survive that. He had to land 3 charges to do this kind of damage, right? That's actually a 14% chance. So he got super lucky. And he got super lucky on the damage rolls to kill 40 with the stealers - that's above their expected output.
I know a lot of people in this thread believe yes, it should not be possible to eliminate conscripts with your entire army in 1 turn. But there's a reason Imperial Guard is absolutely dominating right now.
Do you want a balanced game? This scenario, contrary to this thread, is NOT balanced.
Yes, 20 'stealers and a tyrannocyte are 450 points, which, at twice the cost of the Conscripts and their support, is more than fair. And 40 is only slightly above their expected output, because the expected value is 35 from the 'stealers. The other two chargers, one of which walked there and only had to make a 3 or 4" charge, were there to capitalize on the genestealers killing off a huge number of conscripts and then pile in and consolidate into my second rank. There were several things he could have done differently, too, like having literally anything other than 2 Mawlocs, that would have made a further difference in leveraging the advantage.
And, I can think of things that can absorb that kind of firepower, short of superheavies. Scarab Terminators just barely die [mostly through the mortal wounds effect, since they basically ignore the rending claws] for 250 points. A Land Raider Crusader, at 300, but just barely. Obviously, anything that's a flyer not only blocks the charge, protecting the units behind it, but also can't be damaged by the 'stealers. MSU units, or a cheap tank pushing the anti-deepstrike perimeter, can easily block the Genestealers and leave them foundering in the open for a hail of Storm Bolter fire.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, why was his Tyrant allowed to consolidate and then pile in?
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Bang. Hard counter list that wins every time.
You quoted me after I'd already started the discussion. Here's the previous quote for context:
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
Anyway, the list has two searchlights and your list has 2 units total. Placing the searchlights front and center gives them board-wide reach no matter where you place yours, and allows conscript blob to be placed after your army every time. Yes, I'm putting some restrictions on things, but I don't think they're crazy or unreasonable in context.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
I just read it and that's only for the friendly unit affected, so conscripts shooting at vehicles works fine. I'll have to edit my earlier post with War-Walkers :(
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Why are you looking for "realistic conditions" in the conscript counter, but then ignoring "realistic conditions" when mathhammering the conscripts against anything else?
Also, I can deploy the searchlight first after their searchlights, and wait to see where a character or conscript blob goes. As soon as one of them goes down, all of them go nearby, for obvious reasons.
Furthermore, the searchlight only works on enemy units within 48", so if he wants to put it first, I can effectively guarantee he doesn't have that bonus, which reduces his firepower to 3.7 wounds per turn at 24" - if he fires every turn, with orders, he can do 22.2 wounds to the Macharius in 6 shooting phases, if the Macharius just stands there and bites it without moving, retaliating, or anything. That is .2 wounds more than is required to kill it.
Also: You wanted a hard counter to conscripts in an earlier post - let me quote it for you. It doesn't specify craftworlds or anything.
Deathypoo wrote: As for the rest of that 1500 point list, my entire goal was to avoid coming up with entire incredibly difficult to math out huge battles. I wanted to keep it simple. For any number of points, if you build a list as a direct counter, you should be able to win against the same number of points. I literally cannot think of a list at 401 points with any chance of beating that 401 points of guard.
Bolded the relevant bit. I built a 401 pt list that can beat it. If you're worried about deployment, you can add a trio of acolytes to the list, making it 397 points on the nose (after dropping the searchlight which doesn't work anymore), just to ensure the Macharius gets maximum range advantage over the conscripts.
Bang. Hard counter list that wins every time.
You quoted me after I'd already started the discussion. Here's the previous quote for context:
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
Anyway, the list has two searchlights and your list has 2 units total. Placing the searchlights front and center gives them board-wide reach no matter where you place yours, and allows conscript blob to be placed after your army every time. Yes, I'm putting some restrictions on things, but I don't think they're crazy or unreasonable in context.
ross-128 wrote: Sadly, searchlights don't work on vehicles anymore. Pretty much any T6+ vehicle with a sufficient amount of anti-infantry shots can chew through conscripts unsupported though, while taking negligible damage in return.
That is really, really good to hear and makes a big difference. There's an errata or FAQ somewhere about that?
In the Forge World Astra Militarum FAQ, Saber searchlights only work for Infantry and other Saber platforms.
I just read it and that's only for the friendly unit affected, so conscripts shooting at vehicles works fine. I'll have to edit my earlier post with War-Walkers :(
See my revisions:
Since searchlights no longer work on vehicles, make the list 397 with 3 solo acolytes.
4 drops, still fewer than the conscripts, and enough to put the big tank exactly where you want it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: He chose to use the Hormagaunts to kill the last 5 instead of the Tyrant, so the Tyrant could consolidate and pile-in to a tank that was behind a break in the second rank of infantry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, why was his Tyrant allowed to consolidate and then pile in?
Genestealers kill off many conscripts. I chose not to kill the 5 closest to the Hormagaunts, to limit the effect of their 6" pile in and consolidate.
"Any unit with enemies within 1", or that charged this turn, can be selected to fight."
The Tyrant, who charges, but isn't remotely near a Conscript, piles in 3". He has to end this move closer to the nearest enemy model than he started, but can move in any direction that he wants. An Infantry Squad is the closest enemy model, but he only has to end up closer to them than he started, so he moves towards the tank. He's now closer to the tank than the infantry, and moved a total of about half and inch closer to the infantry, so that's a legal move. His fight step happens, but he's not close enough to fight the tank or the infantry, and then he consolidates another 3". Since the tank is the new closest enemy model, he just moseys 3" forward to get within 1" of the tank.
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
That tank paid for good guns. Or at least paid for supposedly good guns.
If you paid 100 points for a brick, then it should survive 300 points of attacks
However, I'll point out, a Manticore has a really good armament for 133 points. For 200 points, so does a Lascannon Predator. For 90, so does a Wyvern.
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
That tank paid for good guns.
I mentioned that too, thanks for the brevity. The quote pyramids are getting huge.
Marmatag wrote: Conscripts pay next to nothing for their best-in-game durability.
Yes, thank you.
Also, water is wet.
They also pay next to nothing for highly effective shooting. Not best in game, but super effective. Their basic points cost is fine, but the fact that for buffs that add up to exactly one more ppm they can fire twice as often, with 50% better BS, while being immune to morale... that's what makes them OP.
If another person says something along the lines of "it's impossible to actually get the bulk of them in range with their 24" guns " I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. Half the shooty armies in 40k are apparently incapable of shooting with more than a dozen of their models in a 2000 point game.
Unit1126PLL wrote: "A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
361 pts of conscripts kill 18.5 ork boyz per turn. 400 pts for 4 razorbacks with twin AC kill 21.33 ork boyz per turn.
How are 120.3 conscripts killing 18.5 orc boys? And why is there 1/3rd of a conscript?
I get 11.14 ork boys dead from 120.33 conscripts, not 18.5.
The post chain that you quoted was including orders, since that's what WingedCamel was claiming to be balanced. It's the same package of conscripts+support that has been referred to earlier.
I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Marmatag wrote: Conscripts pay next to nothing for their best-in-game durability.
Yes, thank you.
Also, water is wet.
They also pay next to nothing for highly effective shooting. Not best in game, but super effective. Their basic points cost is fine, but the fact that for buffs that add up to exactly one more ppm they can fire twice as often, with 50% better BS, while being immune to morale... that's what makes them OP.
If another person says something along the lines of "it's impossible to actually get the bulk of them in range with their 24" guns " I'm going to cry myself to sleep tonight. Half the shooty armies in 40k are apparently incapable of shooting with more than a dozen of their models in a 2000 point game.
I've already admitted orders are OP, and we should remove the ability of conscripts to receive orders. I think at least 2 or 3 people have said that now. Why are orders still being included?
Unit1126PLL wrote: "A lot" of damage = less than 4 marines a turn for 180 points.
361 pts of conscripts kill 18.5 ork boyz per turn. 400 pts for 4 razorbacks with twin AC kill 21.33 ork boyz per turn.
How are 120.3 conscripts killing 18.5 orc boys? And why is there 1/3rd of a conscript?
I get 11.14 ork boys dead from 120.33 conscripts, not 18.5.
The post chain that you quoted was including orders, since that's what WingedCamel was claiming to be balanced. It's the same package of conscripts+support that has been referred to earlier.
Ah, I see. Yes, with orders, conscripts have excellent shooting. So take away Orders. Boom. No further nerfs needed. I think I mentioned that pages ago; I know Katherine certainly did.
Marmatag wrote:I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Again, no they aren't. Even ignoring orders, 50 lasguns isn't negligible fire power. After all some might be out of range of any targetable unit, but some should be in rapid fire range. With split fire, even a dispersed unit should be able to target something. It's not a huge amount of damage, but it isn't nothing. If you want it be literally nothing and only pay for durability that's fine. But that's not what they currently are, even ignoring orders that's not what they are.
Also, it's worth noting that conscripts aren't paying for their durability. We can in fact pinpoint exactly where they aren't: they only pay for leadership
4, yet a commissar has the same effect on them as the leadership 6/7 normal guard. Which is why they shouldn't work quite so well with commissars, as far as many of us are concerned.
It's the same issue as scions paying guard prices for plasma weapons, despite having the BS of space marines.
Unit1126PLL wrote: [What would you have preferred happen in that scenario?
A unit of 20 genestealers manages to land a 9" charge on a unit of 50 conscripts, and the pod is shooting at them as well, I'd kinda want the conscripts to die. I can wipe 100 points of vehicle with 300 points of anti tank weaponry in one turn as often as not. I'd expect the same of conscripts. Not almost kill them because the controlling player rolled really well.
Surely you think that vehicle that you can wipe out for 300 points had some firepower in addition to its durability?
Conscripts pay for durability. That's all they do. Take their guns away and give them shovels and in their current state they'd still be useful (if unfluffy) as meatshields. Your units that can wipe out an enemy unit in one turn are wiping out a unit that pays for 4 things: Mobility, durability, firepower, and special rules. The conscripts are paying for durability alone.
Again, no they aren't. Even ignoring orders, 50 lasguns isn't negligible fire power. After all some might be out of range of any targetable unit, but some should be in rapid fire range. With split fire, even a dispersed unit should be able to target something. It's not a huge amount of damage, but it isn't nothing. If you want it be literally nothing and only pay for durability that's fine. But that's not what they currently are, even ignoring orders that's not what they are.
Also, it's worth noting that conscripts aren't paying for their durability. We can in fact pinpoint exactly where they aren't: they only pay for leadership
4, yet a commissar has the same effect on them as the leadership 6/7 normal guard. Which is why they shouldn't work quite so well with commissars, as far as many of us are concerned.
It's the same issue as scions paying guard prices for plasma weapons, despite having the BS of space marines.
How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Yeah, I don't recall if it was here or elsewhere, but I pointed out scionspam being what I thought was honestly a bigger problem than conscripts. I also cited fixes for conscripts that are reasonable, fluffy, and fixed the firepower issue.
And my only real dog in this fight is all the horrible ideas that have come out of this thread that cripple everything else in the army in the name of trying to "fix" conscripts. God forbid that GW intern that writes the FAQs happens to thumb through these threads and randomly picks the solution that makes commissars hurt a squad more than they help it.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't try arguing these points, honestly. These guys are fighting tooth and nail to convince people that Guard isn't totally OP in this edition. It's the same as people arguing that everyone has a counter to the Wraithknight in 7th. Just use player skill, guys.
Guard is totally OP.
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm just 100% certain it's not conscripts.
Here are what's OP:
Stormtroopers of all types
Vultures
Elysians
Sabre Searchlights
Baneblades of all types
Mortar Teams
First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! [Seriously, why. It was already the best order. Now it might as well be the only order, it's just that much head-and-shoulders above the rest.]
Vendettas
Valkyries
Skyshield Landing Pads paired with the former
Gunnery Sergeant Harker
30 point HQ's that know First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! automatically twice.
Astropaths
Knight Commander Pask, depending on his tank
Did I mention Stormtroopers and Vultures?
Also, the ability to farm more command points than anyone in the world could know what to deal with, and not make sacrifices.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Okay, that's fair. I apologize, honestly I haven't read the entire thread.
I'll just go back to saying I trust GW to balance it out based on what they did with Raven Spam.
I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating it is, with an assault army, to *never* make it to the tanks. Ever. You'd think that at least every now and then i'd get a tank in melee before my force was entirely crippled.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Okay, that's fair. I apologize, honestly I haven't read the entire thread.
I'll just go back to saying I trust GW to balance it out based on what they did with Raven Spam.
I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating it is, with an assault army, to *never* make it to the tanks. Ever. You'd think that at least every now and then i'd get a tank in melee before my force was entirely crippled.
Now you understand how frustrating it was to play an armoured company in 5th were tanks couldn't score, insta-died to assaults, and assaults were fairly easy to get.
My Leman Russes lost damn near every game of 5th, even when I brought a Baneblade, that I ever played.
But I kept slogging through, because seeing the models on the table and making little ppprrrbbtttt noises while they moved around was fun enough for me. (that last bit is a joke, by the way )
I do hope things get fixed so the game is less frustrating to play for you, while also still giving guard a way to screen their tanks so they get at least 3 turns of firing before being permalocked.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Considering that was "marines in cover" no. It isn't. I've said this like five times now. Which is why you keep repeating yourself, because you've yet to explain why standing it in the open deserves the same durability as one using the terrain. It was a point worthy of consideration, it is not and was not a given, and considering I've yet to hear any explanation, I'm currently leaning towards no.
On the other hand, a commissar boosting three units of guardsmen is comparable in durability to space marines, albeit still slightly harder to kill.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Considering that was "marines in cover" no. It isn't. I've said this like five times now. Which is why you keep repeating yourself, because you've yet to explain why standing it in the open deserves the same durability as one using the terrain.
Because Conscripts are never going to get cover in the current game rules, and Marines can very very very easily.
Also, conscripts aren't paying for a pistol.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for Combat Squads.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for krak grenades.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Considering that was "marines in cover" no. It isn't. I've said this like five times now. Which is why you keep repeating yourself, because you've yet to explain why standing it in the open deserves the same durability as one using the terrain.
Because Conscripts are never going to get cover in the current game rules, and Marines can very very very easily.
Also, conscripts aren't paying for a pistol.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for Combat Squads.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for krak grenades.
So again, this is a unit that can be fielded in huge units great for screening... but shouldn't have any of the disadvantages associated with being a huge unit used for screening? They shouldn't have issues with morale, which marines combat squad to avoid. Shouldn't be disadvantaged for not being able to take cover, even though that's not a given for even smaller units, and most armies can't screen and be in cover.
Maybe some of the conscripts' weaknesses shouldn't be totally invalidated?
Also, space marines being better in melee is compensated for by conscripts being better at range. Yes, spread out this advantage isn't as noticeable, but they aren't going to get much usage from their melee prowess sitting in cover shooting.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How many points per model should a lasgun cost? After all, as you say, it's not nothing. 1PPM? 2?
A Commissar's entire function is to increase their leadership, that's his job... and as Katherine demonstrated with math earlier (I feel like I am repeating myself for some reason) with the Commissar's points cost taken into account they're about on par with tactical marines for durability-per-point. Isn't that balance?
Considering that was "marines in cover" no. It isn't. I've said this like five times now. Which is why you keep repeating yourself, because you've yet to explain why standing it in the open deserves the same durability as one using the terrain.
Because Conscripts are never going to get cover in the current game rules, and Marines can very very very easily.
Also, conscripts aren't paying for a pistol.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for Combat Squads.
Also the Conscripts aren't paying for krak grenades.
So again, this is a unit that can be fielded in huge units great for screening... but shouldn't have any of the disadvantages associated with being a huge unit used for screening? They shouldn't have issues with morale, which marines combat squad to avoid. Shouldn't be disadvantaged for not being able to take cover, even though that's not a given for even smaller units, and most armies can't screen and be in cover.
Maybe some of the conscripts' weaknesses shouldn't be totally invalidated?
Also, space marines being better in melee is compensated for by conscripts being better at range. Yes, spread out this advantage isn't as noticeable, but they aren't going to get much usage from their melee prowess sitting in cover shooting.
I will be okay with removing Conscript's immunity to morale losses so long as it happens for the other hordes in the game: Orks and Tyranids. Literally every other horde has some way of becoming more resistant to morale if not outright immune.
And they are disadvantaged by not being able to take cover? I don't really get your point. Not being able to take cover is a disadvantage.
And conscripts aren't better at range without orders, as Katherine mentioned. They're about the same.
Yeah I really don't think any of the hordes deserve morale immunity. It's like "what the hell is the point of morale?" at this point. Everyone either takes minimum squads that can't fail, one model units that obviously can't fail, or has an ignore-morale mechanic.
I have yet to see anything relevant happen due to morale in this edition.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I will be okay with removing Conscript's immunity to morale losses so long as it happens for the other hordes in the game: Orks and Tyranids. Literally every other horde has some way of becoming more resistant to morale if not outright immune.
And they are disadvantaged by not being able to take cover? I don't really get your point. Not being able to take cover is a disadvantage.
And conscripts aren't better at range without orders, as Katherine mentioned. They're about the same.
Well no. Kroot can't, cultists can't, demons can't, etc. Most can't in fact. If you follow up with "well those aren't horde armies and every army can't do everything" I'd point AM is by no means restricted to hordes. Ogryns, scions, cavalry, vehicles of every flavor under the sun, plus being part of the imperium, the literal grab bag of infinite possibilities. So it's not like IG has any real restrictions on what sort of army they can field.
Honestly? I'd prefer morale immunity be an ork and tyranid only thing, the only armies where it makes sense and is currently balanced with.
Yes it is, but not if their point cost is so low they are already as durable to other units in cover. That's not a disadvantage.
They are only worse if we assume they can't all be in range. Four lasguns at 5+>1 boltgun at 3+. And if you say Schrodinger's conscripts, who just brought up marines benefiting from cover followed by marines better at fighting in melee?
If conscripts had no morale resistance at all they'd be a joke though.
Consider this thought experiment:
Let's say, somehow or other, we did make it so that Tactical Marines with bolters could reliably shoot Conscripts off the table point-for-point. What then happens if said tactical marines shoot and assault?
The Tactical Marines will have more likely than not already done more damage than the Conscripts could have expected to return in shooting (because for the purposes of the experiment, we have nerfed them until this was the case). Now they have also charged in the same turn, meaning the Conscripts won't get to shoot, they'll have to respond with their much weaker melee (or if they use an order, with half the shooting they could have had otherwise). Plus, those conscripts are taking additional casualties from the assault.
So, by making conscripts "equal" at shooting, we have in fact made them drastically inferior when the tactical marines exercise the simple expedient of not ignoring half their kit.
The desirable outcome is IG not getting three free turns of shooting their guns because they took conscripts tbh.
But those turns are the only shooting they get, because once you get into melee, the IG stop playing and start packing up their army, a few casualties at a time. This is much more profoundly evident in 8th edition than previous ones, particularly with vehicles. Orders mitigate that somewhat, but only for limited units.
The desirable outcome is IG not getting three free turns of shooting their guns because they took conscripts tbh.
Are those turns really free when the player is literally sacrificing units to get them?
A tank or artillery piece typically needs about three turns to get its points back, give or take one depending on how well it rolls. And since part of the lists' cost is taken up by its screen, the armor generally needs enough time to do a bit more than its own points in damage to make up for that.
So if an IG player could only expect two turns of shooting at most, no matter how hard they tried to stall, before the game devolved into a brawl what do you think that would mean for them?
daedalus wrote: But those turns are the only shooting they get, because once you get into melee, the IG stop playing and start packing up their army, a few casualties at a time. This is much more profoundly evident in 8th edition than previous ones, particularly with vehicles. Orders mitigate that somewhat, but only for limited units.
So what is the desirable outcome?
In previous editions, once a melee unit was in combat it was there till either it or the other side won. With fall back being a thing, those units which were previously "safe" once they hit conscripts are now getting shot every turn regardless if they make it into combat. Shooting lists have a lot more options to work with now, they don't need this sort of absurd level of screening as well. Not to mention you have melee units as well. Also flyers.
Packing up once they get in melee range isn't and shouldn't be a given, but you don't need conscripts to accomplish that. Maybe we could move away from one dimensional lists as a whole?
ross-128 wrote: Are those turns really free when the player is literally sacrificing units to get them?
A tank or artillery piece typically needs about three turns to get its points back, give or take one depending on how well it rolls. And since part of the lists' cost is taken up by its screen, the armor generally needs enough time to do a bit more than its own points in damage to make up for that.
So if an IG player could only expect two turns of shooting at most, no matter how hard they tried to stall, before the game devolved into a brawl what do you think that would mean for them?
I think they'd have to learn to play like literally every other shooty army does? Which is still perfectly viable, and they have the tools to do so?
In previous editions, once a melee unit was in combat it was there till either it or the other side won. With fall back being a thing, those units which were previously "safe" once they hit conscripts are now getting shot every turn regardless if they make it into combat. Shooting lists have a lot more options to work with now, they don't need this sort of absurd level of screening as well. Not to mention you have melee units as well. Also flyers.
Packing up once they get in melee range isn't and shouldn't be a given, but you don't need conscripts to accomplish that. Maybe we could move away from one dimensional lists as a whole?
I was referring to the fact that you can multiassault tanks, and so long as you can keep doing it with at least a model, they have literally no meaningful presence in the game at that point.
To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Okay, that's fair. I apologize, honestly I haven't read the entire thread.
I'll just go back to saying I trust GW to balance it out based on what they did with Raven Spam.
I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating it is, with an assault army, to *never* make it to the tanks. Ever. You'd think that at least every now and then i'd get a tank in melee before my force was entirely crippled.
Now you understand how frustrating it was to play an armoured company in 5th were tanks couldn't score, insta-died to assaults, and assaults were fairly easy to get.
My Leman Russes lost damn near every game of 5th, even when I brought a Baneblade, that I ever played.
But I kept slogging through, because seeing the models on the table and making little ppprrrbbtttt noises while they moved around was fun enough for me. (that last bit is a joke, by the way )
I do hope things get fixed so the game is less frustrating to play for you, while also still giving guard a way to screen their tanks so they get at least 3 turns of firing before being permalocked.
I'd settle for a change that required guard players to actually use tactics, rather than flopping their models on the table and automatically winning against anything that isn't top-tier, which is what is happening now.
I don't care about anything that happened in a previous edition, to be honest, this is supposed to be the balanced edition, but currently imperial guard is totally broken.
daedalus wrote: I was referring to the fact that you can multiassault tanks, and so long as you can keep doing it with at least a model, they have literally no meaningful presence in the game at that point.
To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.
Then don't take tons of slow moving ranged only options? Take a mixture. Have some mobile firepower it's hard for the enemy to keep tied down, have some deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out. Have some flyers who can't be easily tied up. Run some melee units who don't mind getting stuck in and can hit back while you target other units.
I see no reason a really singular list without much variation shouldn't have obvious counters that they will never win against. That's the downside of spam armies.
ross-128 wrote: Are those turns really free when the player is literally sacrificing units to get them?
A tank or artillery piece typically needs about three turns to get its points back, give or take one depending on how well it rolls. And since part of the lists' cost is taken up by its screen, the armor generally needs enough time to do a bit more than its own points in damage to make up for that.
So if an IG player could only expect two turns of shooting at most, no matter how hard they tried to stall, before the game devolved into a brawl what do you think that would mean for them?
I think they'd have to learn to play like literally every other shooty army does? Which is still perfectly viable, and they have the tools to do so?
Tau is currently the only other army that leans as heavily on shooting as Guard does, and they rely on the abundance of Fly units in their battlesuits to get them out of melee. They're also not doing so great right now, so clearly it's not working very well.
You might not have noticed, but Guard don't have very many Fly units. Unless you're trying to suggest that all IG players should just spam Vultures. The only form of assault mitigation that IG has other than screening is Get Back in the Fight, which doesn't work on vehicles.
I suppose theoretically if conscripts were completely gutted we could just make our lists entirely out of Vultures, plasma scions, and superheavies that can shoot out of melee. But I have a feeling that you'd be distinctly unhappy about that too.
Then don't take tons of slow moving ranged only options? Take a mixture. Have some mobile firepower it's hard for the enemy to keep tied down, have some deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out. Have some flyers who can't be easily tied up. Run some melee units who don't mind getting stuck in and can hit back while you target other units.
I see no reason a really singular list without much variation shouldn't have obvious counters that they will never win against. That's the downside of spam armies.
The guard lack mobility more than anything. People think they're supposed to be fragile, but really, mobility is what has always been their biggest weakness. There's not really any mobile firepower, except for valkyries and hellhounds, and only one of those would I really feel right using the word "firepower" to describe. The only thing that can be "deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out" is rough riders, and they don't have a model right now, and can only come in from deepstrike 7" from a table edge, and then they still have nothing helping them get into melee. The only flyer we have is the Valkyrie which, putting it kindly, isn't that good. You could go out to FW and get some interesting options, but then the mention of FW triggers quite a few people, including several here on the "conscripts go away!" side of things, so THAT'S not an option.
I mean, I can't honestly figure out what specifically you're recommending here with what we have available.
ross-128 wrote: Tau is currently the only other army that leans as heavily on shooting as Guard does, and they rely on the abundance of Fly units in their battlesuits to get them out of melee. They're also not doing so great right now, so clearly it's not working very well.
You might not have noticed, but Guard don't have very many Fly units. Unless you're trying to suggest that all IG players should just spam Vultures. The only form of assault mitigation that IG has other than screening is Get Back in the Fight, which doesn't work on vehicles.
I suppose theoretically if conscripts were completely gutted we could just make our lists entirely out of Vultures, plasma scions, and superheavies that can shoot out of melee. But I have a feeling that you'd be distinctly unhappy about that too.
Okay now what if, and bear with me cause I know this is crazy, what if you used the things you mentioned and some artillery units being screened at the same time. What if maybe the solution was to have different ways of mitigating the issue, so it wasn't all or nothing?
Also, you mentioned three things that have actual counter play, that don't turn the game into pure attrition with no thoughts or tactics. Those would be an improvement.
It's not a question of swinging it the other way and making conscripts worthless, it's about making them worthwhile but not impossible obstacles for some armies. How to go about making that change is not obvious and doesn't necessarily mean that they should only change the conscripts.
daedalus wrote: The guard lack mobility more than anything. People think they're supposed to be fragile, but really, mobility is what has always been their biggest weakness. There's not really any mobile firepower, except for valkyries and hellhounds, and only one of those would I really feel right using the word "firepower" to describe. The only thing that can be "deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out" is rough riders, and they don't have a model right now, and can only come in from deepstrike 7" from a table edge, and then they still have nothing helping them get into melee. The only flyer we have is the Valkyrie which, putting it kindly, isn't that good. You could go out to FW and get some interesting options, but then the mention of FW triggers quite a few people, including several here on the "conscripts go away!" side of things, so THAT'S not an option.
I mean, I can't honestly figure out what specifically you're recommending here with what we have available.
Most of your firepower is mobile, but in particular russes (particularly with tank commanders) have both mobility and can fire on the move with reduced penalties. The taurox carrying around some scions works as well. You can deepstrike scions between your tank and the enemy after the tank falls back, depending on which tank and how wounded it is. Then rapid fire plasma. Or use drop troops with flamers. Rough riders are a good option as well, though less reliable with deepstrike.Your flyer is solid, and the flyer wing means it's pretty trivial to mix and match. You've even got ranged firepower that doesn't roll over and die when something is in melee, like your various super heavies who can keep fighting. Or run more infantry that can fall back and shoot, and less points on the static guns.
Even with no armor, it still takes 112 BS 4 shots of str 4-5 or 90 shots of BS 4 Str 6+ to kill them. To kill 150 pts of stuff. Really? Cheap immunity to battleshock is HUGE. I have to bring special characters for that.
They're a unit designed quite literally to soak up fire.
Can we please get over this incessant need to easily kill every single unit in a single turn? This isn't 7th edition.
Because that's too many shots for a 150 pt unit. It may be designed to soak up fire, but it's doing it too well and too cheaply. The quadratap return fire is just icing on the cake.
In a 2K game, my BA are unable to remove say two of these squads because of their cost/wound ratio. I just don't have the spare shots while I'm engaging the rest of the list. That's two objectives guaranteed I will never score no matter what I do. Forget one turn, I can't remove them over the course of a game. Not in practice. Because there's around 1600 pts of other stuff trying to murder me. Efficient stuff, I might add.
Also, that math was for NO armor. Divide by .66666 for bolters.
daedalus wrote: Most of your firepower is mobile, but in particular russes (particularly with tank commanders) have both mobility and can fire on the move with reduced penalties. The taurox carrying around some scions works as well. You can deepstrike scions between your tank and the enemy after the tank falls back, depending on which tank and how wounded it is. Then rapid fire plasma. Or use drop troops with flamers. Rough riders are a good option as well, though less reliable with deepstrike.Your flyer is solid, and the flyer wing means it's pretty trivial to mix and match. You've even got ranged firepower that doesn't roll over and die when something is in melee, like your various super heavies who can keep fighting. Or run more infantry that can fall back and shoot, and less points on the static guns.
Seriously, so many other things you can do.
The only argument for this is that you can't have everything in an army.
Try and build a guard list. I was trying to do it earlier looking at the 1500 Eldar list posted a few pages back.
As I see it you go with a Battalion and a Spearhead detachment.
2 Company Commanders, two commissars, two Primaris Psykers.
3 Squads of 150 conscripts.
2 Wyverns, 2 Manticores.
This is if anything possibly overdoing it with the conscripts - but good luck getting through them.
Then you have just under 400 points left and I wasn't sure where to go. Two command squads with plasma in a transport (or in this list possibly melta). At least three groups of three Heavy weapon squads with mortars would seem good too (the only problem with mortar squads is that they are so cheap they start filling out your detachments).
I have a soft spot for hellhounds and all the variants but I think that might typically be hope over experience.
Anyway - I don't really want to math out the entire engagement but I don't see how you don't demolish the Eldar with this list. Killing the wave serpents will be a challenge without packing some heavier guns (serpent shield makes 2 damage very inefficient) - but if four of them are just popping one of the artillery pieces a turn (or a taurox/hellhound) it probably doesn't matter that much. I feel you have a chance to kill everything else by the end of your turn 2 and they will drop eventually while you just move up onto the objectives.
To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.
Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.
I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.
Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.
IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.
This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.
I think a Banehammer would provide a good complement to the Conscripts. With 4 lascannons it comes out to 504 points, correct me if I'm wrong. Let us go cheap on Conscripts, only a 100 with 2 Commissar and 1 Commanders. 896 points so far. Toss in some Manticores for that focused damage, add 250. Maybe 2 Wyverns because you know they're still pretty good with that shred.
You got about a 150 points to play with at this point, do you want Anti-Inf or Anti-Armor? Probably Armor because you got 100 lasguns already. So toss in 6 HWT models w/ Lascannons. Or drop a Commissar and some of those Heavy weapon teams and take Yarrick for rerolls of 1 for the tanks. I dunno where Yarrick ends up on the scale of how good he is, but it frees up an order for the conscripts so now they're re-rolling those 1's of FRFSRF.
So 1500 there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh damn this thread advanced pretty far over the day didn't notice. This was in response to that Eldar 1500 force. Wasn't trying to tailor, just making what I think is a pretty solid list.
Arandmoor wrote: Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.
I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.
Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.
IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.
This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.
Yes, it's quite the contrast to look at what level of pts efficiency you can get with the optimal answers to other targets. Two-wound models tend to be some of the cheapest targets to kill. The now infamous plasma scion command squads can demolish terminators. Even with the 8 pts discount that regular terminators have received in the SM codex you are still looking at 40 pts models. If you include the price of the tempestor prime the scions will cost about 104 pts, but the squad itself is 64 pts. The turn they drop they kill an average of three terminators worth 120 pts.
Even something as mundane as a squad of 3 heavy weapons teams equipped with heavy bolters, costing 36 pts, is killing half a terminator each turn.
To be fair to our "melee options", I need to mathhammer the ogryn variants. I expect they're going to be severely lacking for screening purposes even compared to infantry squads, and rough riders are definitely ineffective for those purposes, and not going to be taken seriously by anyone until GW starts producing a model for them, because we all knows what happens to stuff that doesn't have an active model produced for it.
Extremely lacking. Anything with multiple wounds in the 2-3 range is nowhere near as durable as it seems because of the prevalence of 2 or D3 damage weapons combined with their end-price limiting their squad size.
I'm of the opinion, despite really hating how much attention marines get, that units like Terminators are way overpriced at the moment because their multi-wounds just aren't that valuable. Of course this goes for other armies that favor multi-wound models as well, like Tau.
Conversely, armies like Tyranids don't have this problem because their units tend to jump from 1 wpm to 8+ with only a few exceptions that, in the case of nids at least, are usually fairly cheap. The only real exception I can think of off the top of my head is warriors at 3 wpm, and I wouldn't take them either outside of a game of Shadow War.
IMO, the more expensive heavy infantry units that are sitting at 2 wounds, need to be bumped up to 3-5 if they want to keep their current points values, just because of how weak that second wound is with 8th edition firepower.
This is why conscripts are so powerful. They're cheap wounds. Very, very, very cheap wounds, with none of the benefits that push up the cost of other units whose selling point is largely their wound total, like Ogryns.
This indeed. I was super keen on my sanguinary guard when the rules came out, and then they got put down by pred autocannons, overcharged plasma, grav, avenger gatlings, cron destroyers etc etc. Right back on the shelf they went.
daedalus wrote: The guard lack mobility more than anything. People think they're supposed to be fragile, but really, mobility is what has always been their biggest weakness. There's not really any mobile firepower, except for valkyries and hellhounds, and only one of those would I really feel right using the word "firepower" to describe. The only thing that can be "deepstrike ready to bail your tanks out" is rough riders, and they don't have a model right now, and can only come in from deepstrike 7" from a table edge, and then they still have nothing helping them get into melee. The only flyer we have is the Valkyrie which, putting it kindly, isn't that good. You could go out to FW and get some interesting options, but then the mention of FW triggers quite a few people, including several here on the "conscripts go away!" side of things, so THAT'S not an option.
I mean, I can't honestly figure out what specifically you're recommending here with what we have available.
Most of your firepower is mobile, but in particular russes (particularly with tank commanders) have both mobility and can fire on the move with reduced penalties. The taurox carrying around some scions works as well. You can deepstrike scions between your tank and the enemy after the tank falls back, depending on which tank and how wounded it is. Then rapid fire plasma. Or use drop troops with flamers. Rough riders are a good option as well, though less reliable with deepstrike.Your flyer is solid, and the flyer wing means it's pretty trivial to mix and match. You've even got ranged firepower that doesn't roll over and die when something is in melee, like your various super heavies who can keep fighting. Or run more infantry that can fall back and shoot, and less points on the static guns.
Seriously, so many other things you can do.
Clearly you don't play guard, because Russes are hardly mobile. They're not mobile enough to get away from a unit that charged them. 10" when the enemy was in base to base means they need a 4" charge (for most units) to keep it from shooting again. And the Russ is less mobile than, say, a Hammerhead, because at least a Hammerhead can shoot when it falls back. If you mean the Russes should run away before melee gets to them... where do you want them to go? Off the board? Most Russes I see are deployed pretty far away from the enemy as it stands and could still be turn-1 charged in many cases without a conscript line.
The Taurox carrying some Scions doesn't work 'well' it works adequately. Scions want to deepstrike, not ride around in a transport more flimsy than a Rhino and with less firepower than a Razorback. Rough Riders are awful - they have the same durability as conscripts for 10PPM, and all you get is better manuverability and also better close combat if you can actually survive the bulletstorm. Seriously, a tactical squad will wipe out a rough rider squad pretty reliably. Don't say "rough riders can protect our tanks from melee" because all they can do is get gunned down so the assault units can hit the tanks behind them.
[sarcasm]Yes, encourage us to deep strike more scions, spam flyers, and spam superheavies. That'll definitely make everything better and no one will ever think Guard are unfun to play against again. [/sarcasm]
Martel732 wrote: Because that's too many shots for a 150 pt unit
No, it's really not.
It's a unit purpose-made to absorb fire through taking tons of damage. And even its ability to absorb damage can be crippled by playing smart.
And again, there's no need to obsess over being able to wipe out every single unit in a single turn.
I respectfully disagree. And read my above post more carefully. I can't wipe them over an entire game when they are in context. I don't mind them being an excellent bullet sponge, but the whole package needs to cost more or be less effective at tanking damage.
" And even its ability to absorb damage can be crippled by playing smart. "
Melissia wrote: If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.
This, basically.
Guardsmen are 1pt more. Anyone that brings 150 conscripts and 3 LRBTs can bring 150 guardsmen and 2 LRBTs, and have more 33% firepower to boot with the BS4+. If you can't wipe out 150 conscripts in 3 squads over the course of the game, how could you possibly hope to wipe out 150 guardsmen in 15 squads when overkill starts adding inefficiency to your shooting?
Melissia wrote: If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.
It's more complicated than that. IG have a number of priority targets, and conscripts aren't a problem... until they are. I just don't have the resources to dedicated that incredible number of shots or melee attacks. Especially as my army dwindles over the course of the game. The amount of resources we are talking here is incredible.
Melissia wrote: If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.
This, basically.
Guardsmen are 1pt more. Anyone that brings 150 conscripts and 3 LRBTs can bring 150 guardsmen and 2 LRBTs, and have more 33% firepower to boot with the BS4+. If you can't wipe out 150 conscripts in 3 squads over the course of the game, how could you possibly hope to wipe out 150 guardsmen in 15 squads when overkill starts adding inefficiency to your shooting?
I probably can't do that, either. The stormraven crutch was a crutch for a reason. Low cost wounds rule 8th ed at the moment. Conscripts and guardsmen are likely undercosted with the new wounding scale and armor scale.
I'd settle for a change that required guard players to actually use tactics, rather than flopping their models on the table and automatically winning against anything that isn't top-tier, which is what is happening now.
I don't care about anything that happened in a previous edition, to be honest, this is supposed to be the balanced edition, but currently imperial guard is totally broken.
Two can play at that game. Do you think it really takes any more tactics to deep-strike your entire damn army and blow everything up without having to suffer retaliation? Don't tell me null [or half-null] deepstrike alpha strike, whether ranged or CQC based, actually requires more tactics than a gunline. At least I have to interact with the terrain on the board.
I'm using tactics and strategy in my gunline. I've built my list to take maximum advantage of the way units interact with each other, with the terrain, and with the probably enemy composition. I've brought units that are defensive in nature and units that are offensive in nature, and use them together in unison to increase each other's power. I have to carefully consider the position of tanks and guns to ensure that I have optimal fields of fire, and to encourage my foe to move into arranged killzones and crossfires, interacting with the positioning of terrain to ensure I have the maximum defensive benefits and ensure the enemy has the least ability to enhance his attack. I close areas to deepstrikers with screening units, and I open others, to ensure the enemy is right where I want him.
I'd settle for anything that makes Space Marine players actually have to think to play the game too. Thank the Emperor drop pods are now appropriately expensive.
Never once did I say guard aren't OP. In fact, if you'd like, I can quote you a post in this very thread where I say guard are overperforming in 8th.
I just don't think the problem is conscripts.
Okay, that's fair. I apologize, honestly I haven't read the entire thread.
I'll just go back to saying I trust GW to balance it out based on what they did with Raven Spam.
I hope you guys can appreciate how frustrating it is, with an assault army, to *never* make it to the tanks. Ever. You'd think that at least every now and then i'd get a tank in melee before my force was entirely crippled.
Pardon the snarkiness, but no, I can't.
You clearly can't understand how frustrating it is to be charged on turn 1 by the entire damn enemy army without having a thing to say about it. I want to actually be able to do something other than take my models off the board during the game.
It took about 25%-30% of the Tyranid Army to kill about 50% of my army by cost. It's 50% of my army because literally a third of it was a Shadowsword that didn't die, and can ignore the fact that it's in melee. When it comes down to it, the game was won because my big tank is immune to melee combat. I brought an OP unit and leaned on it to carry the game, but it wasn't Conscripts.
1 - They magnify the power of Orders beyond what is expected.
2 - It takes forever to kill them.
3 - Related to 2, the presence of a Commissar makes them unbudgeable.
4 - Taking 400 a game is insane.
Proposed soultions have included a point increase from 3 to 4, which renders them useless, or tricky special case rules with morale, orders, etc, that get kludge.
INDEX: IMPERIUM 2 Conscripts (Page 18) change the following:
"Power 3" with "Power 2"
REPLACE
"This unit contains 20 Conscripts. It can include up to 10 additional Conscripts (Power Rating +1, up to 20 additional Conscripts (Power Level +2), or 30 additional Conscripts (+3 PL)" with "This unit contains 10 Conscripts."
Astra Militarum Points Value
Models per unit (Page 142)
REPLACE "20-50" with "10"
(Space provided to copy, paste, and print for your own use.)
This introduces no new rules. It changes no point costs. It allows for Orders to work properly. It allows the current Commissar "Summary Execution" rule to function as intended, BUT, it increases the number of Conscripts that will die to keep them in the field by 2-5 per 50 men without changing the effect on any other unit in the Codex. It allows for impressive levels of spam (120 per detatchment!) put puts a tax on it (Filling out Detachments) that keep it from being overwhelming ... 180 conscripts is usually the most you'd see and, ordinarily, less than that. It makes them somewhat harder to use in that they *desperately* need to stay near command models to function without rendering them useless via special rules.
That's an utterly nonsense change. Basically saying "get rid of conscripts entirely".
You know what? I get it. You're scared of IG players using conscripts. That's fine. So you want to take away conscripts. Well, in exchange, I'll nominate one unit you like to use, and say you can't use it any more.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna be sitting here with my sub-par scouts and terminators army not fearing the use of conscripts at all.
Martel732 wrote: I'd be fine with that, actually. I'm very tired of overpowered units.
Okay. Let's get rid of sternguard and vanguard veterans while we're at it. You said you hated overpowered units after all. Let's get rid of them. Stern- or Vanguard veterans can no longer take any special gear. Whee! Making haphazard changes without thinking of the consequences is fun!
Melissia wrote: That's an utterly nonsense change. Basically saying "get rid of conscripts entirely".
You know what? I get it. You're scared of IG players using conscripts. That's fine. So you want to take away conscripts. Well, in exchange, I'll nominate one unit you like to use, and say you can't use it any more.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna be sitting here with my sub-par scouts and terminators army not fearing the use of conscripts at all.
I propose, in exchange, making the movement phase the last phase in the turn, not the first.
The fundamental problem that still remains is that there's still no manifestation of the "combined squads" rule that we've had for roughly 10 years. Conscripts was the last vestige of some version of it. Losing it on infantry means that my power weapon squads have become even more lackluster than they were in 6th/7th, but that's not something to balance now because I knew what I was getting into and you saw how I was dressed.
Anyway, the fundamental problem is that consolidation still works in immense favor against the conscripts even in this situation. I'd have to try some simulations to be sure, but I think not only do you compromise their orders, you're also making them more profoundly flimsier than you think you are. Casualties increase at least by a factor of five, and I want to talk to the guys I play with who are probably smarter than I am to know if it gets worse than that.
Other than that, it does strange things. They can enter vehicles, thus they provide cheap manpower for chimera lasgun arrays. I literally have no idea what that does to the game, but you just suggested it. Uh... You shut down 60% of the orders. I'm totes okay with that. I'm trying to figure out more things.
Melissia, can you comment further? I genuinely think there's a resolution that can be had, beyond the "let's make people make platoons" again. I want to think this is the right track, but I feel like something is off.
Since you asked.... my solution is to simply make conscripts, and conscripts alone, less effective at synergy with IG characters.
One or both of these would be enough without touching anything else.
-- Untrained: When a Conscript squad is given an order, roll a d6, on a 5+ (or 4+) the order, while still used up, has no effect due to poor training on the conscripts' parts.
-- Decimation: When a Conscript squad benefits from / is under the effect of the Commissar's Summary Execution ability, roll 1d6 to determine the number of conscripts slain, even if the resulting number is higher than the number that you would have lost due to the failed morale test.
There is no need to touch the number of conscripts, their statline, or to change it so these characters no longer benefit non-conscripts as much as well.
Martel732 wrote: Hooray for stomping off. I truly don't believe 3 pt models should have 5+ saves. I don't understand why are defending this unit so vehemently.
You'll find out the hard way with your scout/terminator list that you basically have zero chance.
Because everyone defending this plays guard.
It must be fun putting your army on the table, moving basically nothing, and tabling all of your opponents.
Brimstone horrors are a huge problem too, people just aren't wizened up to it yet.
I hate the fact that the have not list players learned nothing from 7th. I don't defend 3rd ed BA as a fair list, as it was only vulnerable to a few Xeno builds at the end of 3rd.
Nothing should surprise me after all the "riptides are fine!" threads in 7th.
3 point models shouldn't have 5+ saves; it was the first goddamn thing I said this whole thread.
Also in regards to drop pods Katherine, they're honestly probably overstatted AND overcosted now in regards to their purpose. Even with their 10 point reduction I don't think we will see them in competitive lists again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also if we're complaining about any ONE specific SM unit, I fully expect SM Bike lists to run rampant again with the 6 point drop they're receiving.
So...the current consensus seems to be to remove their orders, remove their armor, and make them suffer more heavily from morale? What exactly would be the point of taking a screening unit that just immediately evaporates? Any one of those should be enough to fix the issue, though I doubt the armor one will be used, considering all guardsmen use the same model.
The problem is the scaling, not the stat line. Fix the scaling via either removing orders entirely, making Commissars hurt them more to stop morale (or a lesser mix of these two), or limiting their squad size. Make them size 10-30, and the scaling will be better. Make them size 10-30 and only pass orders on a 4+ and they should be fine.
Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.
Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Clearly you don't play guard, because Russes are hardly mobile. They're not mobile enough to get away from a unit that charged them. 10" when the enemy was in base to base means they need a 4" charge (for most units) to keep it from shooting again. And the Russ is less mobile than, say, a Hammerhead, because at least a Hammerhead can shoot when it falls back. If you mean the Russes should run away before melee gets to them... where do you want them to go? Off the board? Most Russes I see are deployed pretty far away from the enemy as it stands and could still be turn-1 charged in many cases without a conscript line.
The Taurox carrying some Scions doesn't work 'well' it works adequately. Scions want to deepstrike, not ride around in a transport more flimsy than a Rhino and with less firepower than a Razorback. Rough Riders are awful - they have the same durability as conscripts for 10PPM, and all you get is better manuverability and also better close combat if you can actually survive the bulletstorm. Seriously, a tactical squad will wipe out a rough rider squad pretty reliably. Don't say "rough riders can protect our tanks from melee" because all they can do is get gunned down so the assault units can hit the tanks behind them.
[sarcasm]Yes, encourage us to deep strike more scions, spam flyers, and spam superheavies. That'll definitely make everything better and no one will ever think Guard are unfun to play against again. [/sarcasm]
Yes, I think you should move the Russ away before it gets charged. Look for an opening or make one. Don't depend on the screen to last forever. 10" movement gives you some options.
How are they constantly getting turn one charges? Deepstriking and charge boosts? Use a screen, but don't depend on it to last forever. Character abilities? Hey, maybe you could try taking snipers since you still have the best ones per point. Be a nice change guard has to do the same thing they force every other army to do.
Wow yeah maybe you'd have to actually try and get the charge and not just sit in place. How awful.
Less firepower than a razorback? Dunno, two autocannons and a missle launcher that fires twice per turn is pretty great for anti tank. Or a gatling cannon and two hot shot volley guns for infantry.
Seriously, you have options, you just don't want to use them because sitting in a corner is way easier.
Quickjager wrote: Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.
Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.
That would be fine too, I just keep seeing proposals of having the Commissar kill more members of the squad to keep it in line, remove orders, AND reduce their stat lines and that just veers to the side of "why would I take this unit?" I don't play enough to play test each of these scenarios, but wouldn't it be better if they received a little nudge, then checked at that point, and then down the line maybe nudged again to fine tune the unit?
Quickjager wrote: Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.
Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.
That would be fine too, I just keep seeing proposals of having the Commissar kill more members of the squad to keep it in line, remove orders, AND reduce their stat lines and that just veers to the side of "why would I take this unit?" I don't play enough to play test each of these scenarios, but wouldn't it be better if they received a little nudge, then checked at that point, and then down the line maybe nudged again to fine tune the unit?
I don't think anyone thinks all those should apply. Even me and I'm one of the grumpier people in this thread.
I think they NEED to stay at 3 ppm or they lose flexibility. I think that offensively they are fine without orders, I also PERSONALLY don't think much of any of the orders.
Maybe giving them access to the orders that involve them on screening or meleeing like the blob they are would be more appropriate. But I do think 6+ armor would be the most appropriate, because it hits a sweet spot where AP - weapons become more effective, but the specialized assault or shooting weapons still lose out on point efficiency.
Quickjager wrote: Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.
Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.
I remember reading that every planet in the Imperium were supposed to tithe 6000 of their best troops to the Imperial Guard. Lets look at our world. If you took 6000 from all the nations best soldiers, you would still have some good soldiers, actually lots of them left on the PDF. But the Guard should be that much better.
PDF can be high quality or just average to actual turds. Depends on the world and resources.
Penal legions, etc should suck.
The guard should work as a fine tuned machine. Conscripts (without reading their fluff) sound like soldiers that may not have the same level of interaction of a fine tuned force and should have some limitations (the lack of Orders is a good suggestion)
If the problem is that they are too good for points, perhaps give them AutoGuns instead of LasGuns and let them run out of ammo after x rounds of shooting. Lasguns recharge daily. Autoguns need ammo dumps.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Clearly you don't play guard, because Russes are hardly mobile. They're not mobile enough to get away from a unit that charged them. 10" when the enemy was in base to base means they need a 4" charge (for most units) to keep it from shooting again. And the Russ is less mobile than, say, a Hammerhead, because at least a Hammerhead can shoot when it falls back. If you mean the Russes should run away before melee gets to them... where do you want them to go? Off the board? Most Russes I see are deployed pretty far away from the enemy as it stands and could still be turn-1 charged in many cases without a conscript line.
The Taurox carrying some Scions doesn't work 'well' it works adequately. Scions want to deepstrike, not ride around in a transport more flimsy than a Rhino and with less firepower than a Razorback. Rough Riders are awful - they have the same durability as conscripts for 10PPM, and all you get is better manuverability and also better close combat if you can actually survive the bulletstorm. Seriously, a tactical squad will wipe out a rough rider squad pretty reliably. Don't say "rough riders can protect our tanks from melee" because all they can do is get gunned down so the assault units can hit the tanks behind them.
[sarcasm]Yes, encourage us to deep strike more scions, spam flyers, and spam superheavies. That'll definitely make everything better and no one will ever think Guard are unfun to play against again. [/sarcasm]
Yes, I think you should move the Russ away before it gets charged. Look for an opening or make one. Don't depend on the screen to last forever. 10" movement gives you some options.
How are they constantly getting turn one charges? Deepstriking and charge boosts? Use a screen, but don't depend on it to last forever. Character abilities? Hey, maybe you could try taking snipers since you still have the best ones per point. Be a nice change guard has to do the same thing they force every other army to do.
Wow yeah maybe you'd have to actually try and get the charge and not just sit in place. How awful.
Less firepower than a razorback? Dunno, two autocannons and a missle launcher that fires twice per turn is pretty great for anti tank. Or a gatling cannon and two hot shot volley guns for infantry.
Seriously, you have options, you just don't want to use them because sitting in a corner is way easier.
The Russ doesn't have anywhere to go before it gets charged. We're locked in our deployment zone. Every game of 8th I've played with my guard consisted of me trying to use maneuver while the enemy banzaii charged forwards shrieking at the top of their lungs before locking everything in combat, at which point I don't care because I run superheavies. I'm lucky to get one movement phase before everything is in melee, if my opponent wants it to be in melee.
But if I did run Russes, I'd essentially be constantly falling back, because having 10 or so on a 6/4 means there's no maneuvering room.
I am not asking the screen to last forever. I am asking the screen to last 3 turns, which is enough time to use my firepower to open a hole to maneuver through, since an opponent isn't just going to give me one.
And yes, we can use snipers... but I don't know why you mentioned this? I never mentioned characters in the post you replied to...
Yes, less firepower than a razorback, because the gatling cannon and two hot-shot volleyguns come nowhere near the TLAC for damage, and the TLLC is far better against tanks than 1x mL and 2x Autocannon.
Quickjager wrote: Scaling has nothing to do with stat-point efficiency.
Making them pass orders on a dice roll also just means they will be random. Just take it away entirely like the criminal or PDF scum they're supposed to be.
I remember reading that every planet in the Imperium were supposed to tithe 6000 of their best troops to the Imperial Guard. Lets look at our world. If you took 6000 from all the nations best soldiers, you would still have some good soldiers, actually lots of them left on the PDF. But the Guard should be that much better.
PDF can be high quality or just average to actual turds. Depends on the world and resources.
Penal legions, etc should suck.
The guard should work as a fine tuned machine. Conscripts (without reading their fluff) sound like soldiers that may not have the same level of interaction of a fine tuned force and should have some limitations (the lack of Orders is a good suggestion)
If the problem is that they are too good for points, perhaps give them AutoGuns instead of LasGuns and let them run out of ammo after x rounds of shooting. Lasguns recharge daily. Autoguns need ammo dumps.
That sounds incredibly clunky tbh AND restrictive.
I think, mathematically, we can devise a fairly simple solution, and am still a proponent of what I proposed earlier.
Anyway, to re-iterate my math:
A Space Marine firing a boltgun has a 30% chance of killing a Conscript with a single shot. A Space Marine firing a boltgun has a 11% chance of killing a Space Marine with a single shot. For every conscript slain after the first, another conscript is lost due to battleshock without a commissar. Therefore, a Boltgun actually has a 30% chance of killing 2 conscripts without a Commissar. We can then conclude that, with out a Commissar, a Conscript is 17% as resilient as a Space Marine, and with a Commissar is 33% as resilient.
A Conscript firing a lasgun has a 3.7% chance of killing a Space Marine with each shot. A Space Marine firing a boltgun has a 11% chance of killing a Space Marine with each shot. Therefore:
At 12"-24" of range, a Conscript without Orders has a 3.7% chance of killing a Space Marine, a Conscript with Orders has a 7.3% chance of killing a Space Marine, and a Space Marine has a 11% chance of killing a Space Marine
Therefore, at 12"-24" of range, a Conscript without Orders is 34% as effective as a Space Marine, and a Conscript with Orders is 66% as effective as a Space Marine. Do you agree?
At 1"-12" of range, a Conscript without Orders has a 7.3% chance of killing a Space Marine, a Conscript with Orders has a 14% chance of killing a Space Marine, and a Space Marine has a 21% chance of killing a Space Marine
Therefore, at 1"-12" of range, a Conscript without Orders is 35% as effective as a Space Marine, and a Conscript with Orders is 67% as effective as a Space Marine. Do you agree?
At <1" of range, a Conscript without Orders has a 3.7% chance of killing a Space Marine, a Conscript with Orders has a 7.3% chance of killing a Space Marine, and a Space Marine has a 21% chance of killing a Space Marine
Therefore, at <1" of range, a Conscript without Orders is 18% as effective as a Space Marine, and a Conscript with Orders is 34% as effective as a Space Marine. Do you agree?
A Conscript alone is 23% the cost of a Space Marine. Assuming squads of 50, a Conscript supported by a Commissar is 3.62 ppm, 27% the cost of a Space Marine. A Conscript with both Orders and a Commissar is 3.92 ppm, 30% the cost of a Space Marine. Do you agree?
So, if we average the effectiveness percentages: [Toughness + Long Range + Short Range + Melee / 4]
A Conscript alone is 26% the effectiveness of a Space Marine, for 23% the cost.
A Conscript support by a Commissar is 30% the effectiveness of a Space Marine, for 27% the cost.
A Conscript supported by Orders is 46% the effectiveness of a Space Marine, for 25% the cost.
A Conscript supported by both is 50% the effectiveness of a Space Marine, for 30% the cost.
Without orders, independent of a Commissar's presence, a Conscript is approximately 0.09 ppm more effective than it should be. 3%, basically as on-target as you can be.
With orders, independent of a Commissar's presence, a Conscript is approximately .6 ppm more effective than it should be. 20%, which is rather drastically off target.
Now, we're talking about two specific orders here: First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! and Get Back in the Fight! The other ones are irrelevant.
But, we can't make a change without causing a landslide of internal balance effects. If Company Commanders are raised in price by 60 points, it might make Conscripts the only viable unit, since orders would be too expensive on Guardsmen. Yes?
So, let's look at Guardsmen. 4ppm alone, 5.5ppm with Orders.
Guardsmen basically don't need Commissars, so we'll ignore them. They're 33% as resilient as a Space Marine
A Guardsman with a single shot has a 5.6% chance of killing a Space Marine.
At 12"-24" of range, a Guardsman is 51% as effective as a Space Marine, a Guardsman with Orders is 98% as effective as a Space Marine.
At 1"-12" of range, a Guardsman is 51% as effective as a Space Marine, a Guardsman with Orders is 97% as effective as a Space Marine.
At < 1" of range, a Guardsman 27% as effective as a Space Marine, a Guardsman with Orders is 52% as effective as a Space Marine.
So, for 30% the cost, a Guardsman without Orders is 40% as effective, .4ppm off.
For 42% the cost, a Guardsman with Orders is 70% as effective, 1.2ppm off.
Wait, why are we not upset about Guardsmen?
So, long story short, the problem is clearly with First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE!, Fix Bayonets!, and Get Back in the Fight!, not with Conscripts. In fact, Conscripts and Commissars are more accurately priced than Guardsmen!
Now that we know where the problems lie, we can actually propose useful solutions.
Melissia wrote: If you don't have enough firepower to wipe out a single conscript squad over hte entire game, I suggest you start playing games of equal army sizes.
This, basically.
Guardsmen are 1pt more. Anyone that brings 150 conscripts and 3 LRBTs can bring 150 guardsmen and 2 LRBTs, and have more 33% firepower to boot with the BS4+. If you can't wipe out 150 conscripts in 3 squads over the course of the game, how could you possibly hope to wipe out 150 guardsmen in 15 squads when overkill starts adding inefficiency to your shooting?
Those 150 guardsmen are actually *less* good than the 150 conscripts, assuming the same number of points spent on commanders to give orders, commissars to prevent running, and searchlights for +1 BS. Because buffs that are multiplied x50 on conscripts are way way better than buffs that are multiplied by 10 on guardsmen.
Now if you're assuming the "prevent conscripts from taking orders" fix has already been applied, then yeah this is a valid point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I won't quote the entire post Katherine just put up, which is interesting if not always 100% relevant... but it also ignores searchlights, which is the mega-buff that put me through the roof and made me start posting in these silly conscript threads
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: A Conscript alone is 23% the cost of a Space Marine. Assuming squads of 50, a Conscript supported by a Commissar is 3.62 ppm, 27% the cost of a Space Marine. A Conscript with both Orders and a Commissar is 3.92 ppm, 30% the cost of a Space Marine. Do you agree?
So, in addition to whatever nerf you are proposing, commissars can only effect a single squad of conscripts? If not, nope conscripts are 3.31 ppm, not 3.62.
Remember all the times I tried to point out even at 5 points normal guardsman would be some of the best infantry in the game, and people ignored me? Ah, good times.
isn't a good formula for actually calculating unit cost, because it dramatically overprices generalist units. It needs weighting so that the best area of the unit factors in more than the worst. Otherwise you end up with well... conscripts. And brimstones. Units saving points in areas the player doesn't care about, and most would gladly reduce further to trim an extra point off.
kurhanik wrote: So...the current consensus seems to be to remove their orders, remove their armor, and make them suffer more heavily from morale? What exactly would be the point of taking a screening unit that just immediately evaporates? Any one of those should be enough to fix the issue, though I doubt the armor one will be used, considering all guardsmen use the same model.
The problem is the scaling, not the stat line. Fix the scaling via either removing orders entirely, making Commissars hurt them more to stop morale (or a lesser mix of these two), or limiting their squad size. Make them size 10-30, and the scaling will be better. Make them size 10-30 and only pass orders on a 4+ and they should be fine.
No, those are all different solutions.
a) Removing armor makes them die faster. One possible fix.
b) Making them not immune to battleshock also makes them die faster
c) Removing orders is a curious choice, as it takes away from their secondary tasks.
kurhanik wrote: So...the current consensus seems to be to remove their orders, remove their armor, and make them suffer more heavily from morale? What exactly would be the point of taking a screening unit that just immediately evaporates? Any one of those should be enough to fix the issue, though I doubt the armor one will be used, considering all guardsmen use the same model.
The problem is the scaling, not the stat line. Fix the scaling via either removing orders entirely, making Commissars hurt them more to stop morale (or a lesser mix of these two), or limiting their squad size. Make them size 10-30, and the scaling will be better. Make them size 10-30 and only pass orders on a 4+ and they should be fine.
No, those are all different solutions.
a) Removing armor makes them die faster. One possible fix.
b) Making them not immune to battleshock also makes them die faster
c) Removing orders is a curious choice, as it takes away from their secondary tasks.
There's actually another post in this forum that's running a poll, and the consensus is to remove the ability to take orders. Which I'm all for.
But seriously, the main issue is [Toughness + Long Range + Short Range + Melee / 4]
isn't a good formula for actually calculating unit cost, because it dramatically overprices generalist units. It needs weighting so that the best area of the unit factors in more than the worst. Otherwise you end up with well... conscripts. And brimstones. Units saving points in areas the player doesn't care about, and most would gladly reduce further to trim an extra point off.
On the whole I do agree: being a generalist in 40k is worse than being a specialist - really all being a generalist does is it is more forgiving when you make a mistake (e.g. getting your Devastators into melee is less bad than getting your IGHWTs into melee, at least ostensibly). This applies to army too - the army that is kind of general and does everything a little bit is way worse than the alpha-strike shooting or alpha-strike assaulting army.
That being said... there has to be some consideration taken for the fact that generalists outperform specialists at everything except what the specialist specializes in, if that makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I don't think that really fixes anything, though. Taking away quadratap but keeping the hundreds of shots or swings doesn't really address the issue.
"Hundreds?" it's 50, per unit, at most. Unless mean bringing more units, but then it's just the same as bringing more guardsmen, or more brimstone horrors, or more orks, or more gaunts.
If you are sitting within rapid fire of a full-strength conscript squad, the number of shots (barring Orders, which, again, I agree are silly) the number of shots will never hit triple digits.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'm lucky to get one movement phase before everything is in melee, if my opponent wants it to be in melee.
But if I did run Russes, I'd essentially be constantly falling back, because having 10 or so on a 6/4 means there's no maneuvering room.
Yes, less firepower than a razorback, because the gatling cannon and two hot-shot volleyguns come nowhere near the TLAC for damage, and the TLLC is far better against tanks than 1x mL and 2x Autocannon.
Please explain to me how your opponent gets his entire army across the board in a single turn. I'm really interested to hear this actually.
.... does the idea of not spamming a single unit not register or what? Have some russes to try and maneuver. Have some artillery that depends on screening. A few super heavies that don't care. Some infantry that can be ordered. A flyer or two to take tot he skies. Stop trying to run 10 of the same thing, spam is annoying no matter who does it.
Umm, no? The TLLC is a bit better against toughness 8 vehicles because it's a bit cheaper and both do the same rough damage (2.5 for razorback vs 2.4 for taurox), but anything toughness 7 or lower the taurox with ML (which isn't a normal missile launcher btw, if that's the confusion) and autocannons wins, both doing more damage and being more efficient for it's points. Plus it can shoot infantry if needed.
For infantry, I have no idea how you think a twin assault cannon beats the gatling gun and two hot shot volley guns. On MEQ the taurox is putting out 4 wounds vs 2.667 wounds for the razorback, and the taurox is cheaper by 4 points. On GEQ, it's 9.481 wounds vs 5.556 wounds, taurox still being cheaper.
The taurox is amazing. I have no idea why you think the razorback beats it in firepower. The taurox is better for it's points than any vehicle available to either of my armies I'm fairly certain
At some point, consider the fact that most of your army list is undercosted compared to other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: That being said... there has to be some consideration taken for the fact that generalists outperform specialists at everything except what the specialist specializes in, if that makes sense.
It's all about finding the correct weighting. In this example you might weight the highest by twice as much, the lowest for each by half, and leave the other two middle values alone. This both takes into account specialization without ignoring the benefits of being an all rounder. That's a decent balance.
Remember all the times I tried to point out even at 5 points normal guardsman would be some of the best infantry in the game, and people ignored me? Ah, good times.
But seriously, the main issue is
At 5ppm a Guardsman would be .6 of a point overpriced.
Considering other potential, incalculable advantages the Space Marines have, such as smaller squads being able to gain the +1 for cover more easily, the better base save meaning they get better benefit from cover than Guardsmen do, the ability to function in both melee and at range, combat squads, reduced number of deployment drops, and now, the ability to out-score any number of Guardsmen with a single Space Marine, I think it's better to err on the side of "slightly underpriced" than "slightly overpriced"
Comparatively, the Guardsmen take up more space, and far CP easier.
isn't a good formula for actually calculating unit cost, because it dramatically overprices generalist units. It needs weighting so that the best area of the unit factors in more than the worst. Otherwise you end up with well... conscripts. And brimstones. Units saving points in areas the player doesn't care about, and most would gladly reduce further to trim an extra point off.
Really? First off, I think generalist units should be the ones paying the premium for versatility. Flexibility opens up far more tactical options on the battlefield, and leaves one less vulnerable to targeted strikes and makes your own maneuver and position much less critical.
Specialization should come with the discount for being bad at everything else, because position and interaction with their fellows is so much more vital to them than it is for generalist units.
Making generalist pay in a game that rewards specialization is how we end up with marines that need gladius, deathstar, and recently stormraven crutches.
So your theory is exactly backwards. Specialists should pay for reliability. Jack of all trades fails hard in 40k. Always has.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Really? First off, I think generalist units should be the ones paying the premium for versatility. Flexibility opens up far more tactical options on the battlefield, and leaves one less vulnerable to targeted strikes and makes your own maneuver and position much less critical.
Specialization should come with the discount for being bad at everything else, because position and interaction with their fellows is so much more vital to them than it is for generalist units.
No, this is outright just wrong. A cheap unit that pays just for shooting power and a unit which pays just for durability is more efficient than a unit paying for everything, even though the disadvantages they have don't amount to anything. Conscripts and artillery are not disadvantaged by lacking melee power in the slightest, as the strategy of screen, fall back, and shoot more than compensates.
Not getting a discount for melee ability that, if you play correctly, you don't need is just bad. Because it doesn't allow you to play any differently. I am going to do everything to keep my devastators out of melee the same way I would my guard heavy weapon teams. The fact they have an extra point of strength and WS doesn't suddenly mean I'm not worried about them getting wiped or tied up in melee,. All those points on heavy weapons are still made useless, same as for any other heavy weapon unit, if I don't keep them safe. Being able to maybe waste a fraction of a point left if they get a lucky kill in melee isn't going to make protecting them less critical, my units still need to work together I am just paying more points for abilities I neither want nor need.
I mean, look at SoB. The fact they no longer have 3+ WS and got a point reduction for it has improved the army immensely. They are literally a better army than they would be if they had to pay for WS 3+, because you are putting your points to shooting anyways, and can take say crusaders if you want a melee unit to help keep enemy melee at range. That's more efficient than paying points to boost SoB weapon skill... when you still want to be shooting and will be purchasing separate melee units anyways.
Specialization is always better if you weight everything the same. Heck, it's still generally better even if you discount the lesser used areas somewhat, the gap just isn't so extreme.
Martel732 wrote: Making generalist pay in a game that rewards specialization is how we end up with marines that need gladius, deathstar, and recently stormraven crutches.
So your theory is exactly backwards. Specialists should pay for reliability. Jack of all trades fails hard in 40k. Always has.
Flexibility is worthless without efficacy.
They don't even need that. Marines can do just fine with a stack of Razorbacks, Tacticals, and Roboute Guilliman.
And, especially with the ability to out-score anything right now, Tac Marines are very strong.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Really? First off, I think generalist units should be the ones paying the premium for versatility. Flexibility opens up far more tactical options on the battlefield, and leaves one less vulnerable to targeted strikes and makes your own maneuver and position much less critical.
Specialization should come with the discount for being bad at everything else, because position and interaction with their fellows is so much more vital to them than it is for generalist units.
No, this is outright just wrong. A cheap unit that pays just for shooting power and a unit which pays just for durability is more efficient than a unit paying for everything, even though the disadvantages they have don't amount to anything. Conscripts and artillery are not disadvantaged by lacking melee power in the slightest, as the strategy of screen, fall back, and shoot more than compensates.
Not getting a discount for melee ability that, if you play correctly, you don't need is just bad. Because it doesn't allow you to play any differently. I am going to do everything to keep my devastators out of melee the same way I would my guard heavy weapon teams. The fact they have an extra point of strength and WS doesn't suddenly mean I'm not worried about them getting wiped or tied up in melee,. All those points on heavy weapons are still made useless, same as for any other heavy weapon unit, if I don't keep them safe. Being able to maybe waste a fraction of a point left if they get a lucky kill in melee isn't going to make protecting them less critical, my units still need to work together I am just paying more points for abilities I neither want nor need.
I mean, look at SoB. The fact they no longer have 3+ WS and got a point reduction for it has improved the army immensely. They are literally a better army than they would be if they had to pay for WS 3+, because you are putting your points to shooting anyways, and can take say crusaders if you want a melee unit to help keep enemy melee at range. That's more efficient than paying points to boost SoB weapon skill... when you still want to be shooting and will be purchasing separate melee units anyways.
Specialization is always better if you weight everything the same. Heck, it's still generally better even if you discount the lesser used areas somewhat, the gap just isn't so extreme.
We weren't WS3+ Last edition, FYI. We just got cheaper. Let me find Codex: Witch Hunters, I'm 99% certain we were WS3(4+) at that time too. And, I'll point out, we've been Space Marines -4STR with nothing to compensate but a minor points decrease since the beginning of time. The important reason we're so good this edition is the fact that Storm Bolters are 2ppm, so for 1 point less than a Space Marine we can get twice the firepower and a Vanguard move, which brings us into Rapid-Fire range on turn 1 whether we're on foot or in a tank, giving us a 400% increase in firepower for comparatively small decreases in resiliency and melee ability. Our downsides are having more drops [unless we're using Repressors], having less long-term staying power, having absolutely trash buff scaling, only two and a half viable units, one of which is unique and the other of which is only viable at a rate of 1 unit per instance of Saint Celestine, terrible antiaircraft ability, and glaring lack of flexibility. We're really good and will crush you beneath our heel if you're willing to play our game with us, but if you change the game then we're going to stand and die.
Anyway, with regards to Generalist vs. Specialist:
It's far easier to invalidate a specialist unit through positioning and tactical play than it is to invalidate a generalist one. Do that, it helps, I promise.
It's much harder to invalidate a generalist unit through positioning, target priority, and force composition.
I don't want to call it a "noob tax", because that's very video-gamey and implies things I don't intend to about Space Marine players, but basically, generalist units should pay a premium for the fact that they intrinsically care less about what the enemy brought and how the battlefield is arranged.
I think that each additional role a unit can perform should come with a little bit extra cost. Or, to put it another way, each glaring weakness should come with a discount.
That's the thing with Guard and Conscripts. Conscripts, pairing up with other Guard lists, are excellent at forcing you to play our game. If you change the game on us, and make have to do things we're not good at, like moving, then we'll lose.
Anyway, with regards to Generalist vs. Specialist:
2 Specialists, one good at shooting, one good at taking hits, should together cost more than a generalist unit that is good at both tasks but not as good as either. Obviously. However, the generalist unit should also cost more than either of the two individually.
You didn't have ws 4 last edition? The guy I actually play 40k with most often runs SoB as one of his main armies(sorta, more witch hunter/demon hunter/inquisition, now with deathwatch added). I was literally misplaying against his army for the better part of two entire editions. Or maybe I just got confused somewhere later along the line, I'd hope I didn't manage to mess up over that long a time frame.
To a degree. It's more that generalist units shouldn't pay full price for abilities that don't benefit them much, if any. Devastator marines shouldn't be paying the same price for str 4/ws 3+ as tactical. Which you'll notice they actually don't despite being the same price point wise. It's why devastators have a "free" signum compared to tactical marines and access to the cherub for dirt cheap.
Basically, increased specialization should give diminishing returns over time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nvm SilverAlien was for some reason
Well, he was using them as an example of why specialization is better, but it's not a good example.
That's 400% increase in turn-1 shooting effectiveness for a fairly paltry 76% melee effectiveness and 77% resilience, for 1 point less.
This balance problem only actually applies to them when they're fitted with Storm Bolters, because Storm Bolters are hilariously underpriced in all armies, we just happen to have the ability to load entire squads with them. Storm Bolters were pretty decent upgrades for things at 5 points last edition, and sure they don't breach armor anymore, but by the Emperor, Rapid Fire 2 is a serious improvement. Also consider that they're literally a 1/4 the price of a flamer for almost the same offensive output with more range, but with marginally less overwatch potential. However, considering deepstrikers land outside flamer range, it's not like they're getting to use that overwatch potential all the time anyway.
In that vein, for tactica: STICK STORM BOLTERS ON YOUR TANKS. You won't regret the 2 points. Disclaimer: Use your brain first. Make sure the vehicle can actually make use of it.
Anyway, with regards to Generalist vs. Specialist:
2 Specialists, one good at shooting, one good at taking hits, should together cost more than a generalist unit that is good at both tasks but not as good as either. Obviously. However, the generalist unit should also cost more than either of the two individually.
You didn't have ws 4 last edition? The guy I actually play 40k with most often runs SoB as one of his main armies(sorta, more witch hunter/demon hunter/inquisition, now with deathwatch added). I was literally misplaying against his army for the better part of two entire editions. Or maybe I just got confused somewhere later along the line, I'd hope I didn't manage to mess up over that long a time frame.
To a degree. It's more that generalist units shouldn't pay full price for abilities that don't benefit them much, if any. Devastator marines shouldn't be paying the same price for str 4/ws 3+ as tactical. Which you'll notice they actually don't despite being the same price point wise. It's why devastators have a "free" signum compared to tactical marines and access to the cherub for dirt cheap.
Basically, increased specialization should give diminishing returns over time.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Well, he was using them as an example of why specialization is better, but it's not a good example.
That's 400% increase in turn-1 shooting effectiveness for a fairly paltry 76% melee effectiveness and 77% resilience, for 1 point less.
Wait... which SoB unit are we talking about? Or marine unit? Or guard unit? I'm also confused how 400% shooting for 76% melee and resilience isn't as good.
Edit: Also (not that anyone but me cares) apparently since I let my friend use the old witch hunters army list, he was usually running all his normal SoB as celestines since he could use storm troopers as troops. So I feel less dumb now.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Well, he was using them as an example of why specialization is better, but it's not a good example.
That's 400% increase in turn-1 shooting effectiveness for a fairly paltry 76% melee effectiveness and 77% resilience, for 1 point less.
Wait... which SoB unit are we talking about? Or marine unit? Or guard unit? I'm also confused how 400% shooting for 76% melee and resilience isn't as good.
Dominions. It's not a good example, because, fitted with storm bolters, they're blatantly performing so far in excess of expectations it doesn't say anything about specialist vs. generalist.
And, as I said, it's a problem only with that one loadout. With all flamer or all meltagun loadouts they're just fine, especially when transport mounted, the way they're supposed to be and have been since I can remember, but Storm Bolters are just way too cheap and have the range to let them forgo the transport.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Dominions. It's not a good example, because, fitted with storm bolters, they're blatantly performing so far in excess of expectations it doesn't say anything about specialist vs. generalist.
My point was more about normal SoB compared to tacticals. Both are primarily shooting units, so losing a point of ws, s, and t for a 4 point discount is overall a good choice for SoB.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Dominions. It's not a good example, because, fitted with storm bolters, they're blatantly performing so far in excess of expectations it doesn't say anything about specialist vs. generalist.
My point was more about normal SoB compared to tacticals. Both are primarily shooting units, so losing a point of ws, s, and t for a 4 point discount is overall a good choice for SoB.
Regular SoB are crap compared to Tacticals. We just run lists of endless numbers of Dominions.
Keep in mind that limitations in our weapons selection choices force us to close to very short range, so the lack of toughness and melee ability is actually a serious drawback.
Spoiler:
Katherine's take on SoB tactica:
Ignore basic Sisters, they're strictly worse than Dominions. Dominions need transports, ideally Repressors to cut drops and get first turn. Always use Celestine, and protect her with no more than 1 squad of Seraphim. If you run out of Fast Attack slots for Dominions, open up a second Outrider detachment, and keep adding Dominions. Use Retributors for your rearguard, spread them out to take up space and deny deep-strike area.
Scout Dominions before turn 1, make sure all transports advance, but be careful about enemy melee troops. Unload what you have to. Chose your targets and unload into them, try to cripple the biggest threats to you. Charge Celestine and her friends, as well as any empty transports into enemy units to lock off their shooting and prevent charges against your Dominions. Disengage if they don't do so on their turn, and finish them off.
I'd love to trade my normal CSM for stock SoB. Way better. Two special weapons at five members and the point break, for a slight loss in close combat ability? I mean, even the lost toughness hardly matters, the four points cheaper mean they are still more resilient for cost. I'd actually consider using plain CSM if they had the SoB datasheet/cost.
I'd love to trade my normal CSM for stock SoB. Way better. Two special weapons at five members and the point break, for a slight loss in close combat ability? I mean, even the lost toughness hardly matters, the four points cheaper mean they are still more resilient for cost. I'd actually consider using plain CSM if they had the SoB datasheet/cost.
Let me explain this:
Regular SoB are 1 point less than Dominions. Dominions have Vanguard. Vanguard is good, because we don't get shot dead trying to get in range.
Sisters don't get Plasmaguns or Lascannons. Our longest ranged weapon is a Heavy Bolter. As you may have noticed, we only get Flamers, Storm Bolters, and Meltaguns for specials, and Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, and Multimeltas for heavies. Note the one that kills tanks, and how it has 12" of range. That means we have to get to 12" of range. We are not only within immediate range to be charged as soon as we shoot, if you don't have vanguard, we have to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting to get to that range. We have guardsman-level melee ability, and are T3. If our alpha-strike isn't powerful enough, we will absolutely be forced to use both of those dump stats.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Regular SoB are 1 point less than Dominions. Dominions have Vanguard. Vanguard is good, because we don't get shot dead trying to get in range.
Sisters don't get Plasmaguns or Lascannons. Our longest ranged weapon is a Heavy Bolter. As you may have noticed, we only get Flamers, Storm Bolters, and Meltaguns for specials, and Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, and Multimeltas for heavies. Note the one that kills tanks, and how it has 12" of range. That means we have to get to 12" of range. We are not only within immediate range to be charged as soon as we shoot, if you don't have vanguard, we have to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting to get to that range. We have guardsman-level melee ability, and are T3. If our alpha-strike isn't powerful enough, we will absolutely be forced to use both of those dump stats.
Dominions being better doesn't really change the fact I'd still prefer to have the SoB over normal CSM/tacticals. Give them two storm bolters and a heavy bolter and have them camp objectives in cover. Still more useful than my CSM will ever be.
Dominions are better in general due to range issues I agree, but i still see a usage for normal SoB. More so again than tacticals/CSM, who are only useful with the obj secured every troop will hypothetically get at some point.
Back on topic.... I don't really know anymore? I kinda forgot where I was going.
I think the overall point was that being a generalist often means paying for things you don't want, which hurts when you run into really point efficient armies that are paying for only what they need for every unit. Which in turn means, imo, that there is a limit to how much you can justify lowering a unit's cost by virtue of it being specialized.
That's part of why I think just nerfing orders isn't the best idea. The way most are using conscripts, it wouldn't matter if they had 6+ ws/bs, no weapons, and couldn't take orders, they'd still probably take them. So I think reducing their ability to function as a screen slightly would be better overall that just removing orders.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Regular SoB are 1 point less than Dominions. Dominions have Vanguard. Vanguard is good, because we don't get shot dead trying to get in range.
Sisters don't get Plasmaguns or Lascannons. Our longest ranged weapon is a Heavy Bolter. As you may have noticed, we only get Flamers, Storm Bolters, and Meltaguns for specials, and Heavy Flamers, Heavy Bolters, and Multimeltas for heavies. Note the one that kills tanks, and how it has 12" of range. That means we have to get to 12" of range. We are not only within immediate range to be charged as soon as we shoot, if you don't have vanguard, we have to survive 1-2 rounds of shooting to get to that range. We have guardsman-level melee ability, and are T3. If our alpha-strike isn't powerful enough, we will absolutely be forced to use both of those dump stats.
Dominions being better doesn't really change the fact I'd still prefer to have the SoB over normal CSM/tacticals. Give them two storm bolters and a heavy bolter and have them camp objectives in cover. Still more useful than my CSM will ever be.
Dominions are better in general due to range issues I agree, but i still see a usage for normal SoB. More so again than tacticals/CSM, who are only useful with the obj secured every troop will hypothetically get at some point.
Camping in cover is harder than is sounds when your maximum range and the rest of the army precludes it.
Rets also aren't better than Devastators, because no Missile Launchers or Lascannons. We are, of course, better than HBDevs, and that is a case of specialists not needing that ability, However, remember that they've also effectively paid for protection in the form of Dominions pushing the frontline and keeping the enemy away from them, and in order for them to not be worse than HBDevs, we need to keep the enemy away and out of combat.
Anyway, if you really want your cheap T3 WS3 troops as Chaos, just pull Renegades and Heretics, or Cultists. You do have those, and if you're just looking for cheap things to sit on an objective, they'll do it better.
Back on topic.... I don't really know anymore? I kinda forgot where I was going.
I think the overall point was that being a generalist often means paying for things you don't want, which hurts when you run into really point efficient armies that are paying for only what they need for every unit. Which in turn means, imo, that there is a limit to how much you can justify lowering a unit's cost by virtue of it being specialized.
That's part of why I think just nerfing orders isn't the best idea. The way most are using conscripts, it wouldn't matter if they had 6+ ws/bs, no weapons, and couldn't take orders, they'd still probably take them. So I think reducing their ability to function as a screen slightly would be better overall that just removing orders.
Well, duh.
I am entirely against making them easier to kill, for the precise reason that Space Marines are only having problems with them because they want us, IG players, to just roll over and die in the face of their genetically-engineered awesomeness. [Sorry for the hyperbole, but even if it took twice the cost of a "tough" unit to wipe it in a turn, that would be unbalanced and make the game all about she-who-goes-first-wins. We have enough of that in the game as is, we don't need a further escalation of firepower until second move can't win.]
And, since I can mathematically prove that, for their cost, they're not too hard to kill compared to Space Marines, I'm not inclined to give ground to that demand. In addition, since the "in a vacuum" scenario generally favors the Conscripts over the Marines, I'm really not inclined to give ground.
Orders are the only scenario in which they can be justifiably considered overpowered. Changing something else doesn't address the problem, and only exacerbates other balance problem areas, such as altering drastically the intended balance of power between Guardsmen, Conscripts, Veterans, and Stormtroopers. It's basic problem-solving: if my airplane engine catches on fire, maybe I should fix the engine instead of redesigning the wings.
Finally, I see the resistance to their survivability as SM players being upset that IG players want to play in the sandbox a different way from the way SM players play. At least the way I see it, I'm hearing "I find playing against you un-fun because you sit over there and shoot at me". Well, I also find it equally un-fun when a half-dozen Drop-Pods/Tyrannocytes drop from the sky and crap out stuff that begins methodically demolishing my battle line before I even get to fire a shot. And, of course, Conscripts aren't beating Stormtrooper Drop or Guilliman and Razorbacks in competitive play, so there's that.
In fact, a lot of stuff that seems really overpowered, like Dominions and Conscripts and anything else that can be sort of annoying to fight against, isn't holding up to competitive play at all. I think that says something.
I am entirely against making them easier to kill, for the precise reason that Space Marines are only having problems with them because they want us, IG players, to just roll over and die in the face of their genetically-engineered awesomeness. [Sorry for the hyperbole.]
I mean... again I'm not evens ure who you are directing this at. The only marines I play are CSM and guard have been able to kick our ass for as long as I've been playing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And, since I can mathematically prove that, for their cost, they're not too hard to kill compared to Space Marines, I'm not inclined to give ground to that demand. In addition, since the "in a vacuum" scenario generally favors the Conscripts over the Marines, I'm really not inclined to give ground
No, you've proven space marines in cover vs normal conscripts with a commissar buffing a single unit. Which is a bit of an apples to oranges statement when the thing you use conscripts for, screening, would mean they rarely benefit from cover irregardless of unit size etc.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Finally, I see the resistance to their survivability as SM players being upset that IG players want to play in the sandbox a different way from the way SM players play. At least the way I see it, I'm hearing "I find playing against you un-fun because you sit over there and shoot at me". Well, I also find it equally un-fun when a half-dozen Drop-Pods/Tyrannocytes drop from the sky and crap out stuff that begins methodically demolishing my battle line before I even get to fire a shot. And, of course, Conscripts aren't beating Stormtrooper Drop or Guilliman and Razorbacks in competitive play, so there's that.
Well... they find it unfun because you are barely playing the game at that point. What exactly are you doing from turn one onwards? Picking the optimal targets and rolling the die is the sum total of your contribution to the army. Meanwhile, I'm trying desperately to find an angle on your commissar, trying to have my anti infantry blow a hole in your screen, etc. It just feels one side is putting in a lot more effort than the other for no good reason and many lists flat out can't win regardless of player input.
A tactic that is, and I mean this with no offense, so mindlessly simple should have really obvious glaring weaknesses to exploit. There should be lists that you just won't win against, that are an absolute uphill battle for you. Because there are many lists that will struggle immensely against yours. I've yet to see such a counter list presented though. Even your examples of hard fought battles, like the tyranid battle, you clearly had the upper hand throughout the entire game due to list composition alone.
I am entirely against making them easier to kill, for the precise reason that Space Marines are only having problems with them because they want us, IG players, to just roll over and die in the face of their genetically-engineered awesomeness. [Sorry for the hyperbole.]
I mean... again I'm not evens ure who you are directing this at. The only marines I play are CSM and guard have been able to kick our ass for as long as I've been playing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And, since I can mathematically prove that, for their cost, they're not too hard to kill compared to Space Marines, I'm not inclined to give ground to that demand. In addition, since the "in a vacuum" scenario generally favors the Conscripts over the Marines, I'm really not inclined to give ground
No, you've proven space marines in cover vs normal conscripts with a commissar buffing a single unit. Which is a bit of an apples to oranges statement when the thing you use conscripts for, screening, would mean they rarely benefit from cover irregardless of unit size etc.
Huh? I didn't include cover at all for Space Marines. The numbers I provided were basically the units shooting at a Space Marine dummy in a empty field.
You're also probably playing super fluffy if the Guard are kicking your asses as CSM. I mean, in the fluff, nothing should stand up to the Guard, much less the wretched traitors, who used to be proud space marines but are now listless, mindless, decrepit, and crazed hulks incapable of advanced tactics and with outdated and defunct weaponry and armor!
CSM last edition, once traitor legions dropped, were a tough foe. Even before traitor legions, they were rough to face. Summon Daemons to win!
For this edition, trying using Scarab Terminators, Rubrics, Magnus, Berzerkers, and Skarbrand. Make sure to have ranged antitank support, LaserPreds are good, and transport options for your core melee/warpflamer troops. Warp Talons strike me as too expensive for what they do, and too expensive to commit to them, considering Berzerkers in a Rhino can probably get most of their troops to the frontline by turn 2. Remember that not all your guys will make it, because if all your guys could, that really wouldn't be fair, would it? It takes approximately 400 points of Manticore to take out a Rhino, which, if you went first, already did it's job.
Speaking of the difficulty of killing Conscripts, there's something to point out. A Rhino is 70 points. It takes 3 Manticores, at 399 points to take it out in 1 turn. It also take 237 points of Dominions and their Immolator to take it out in one turn. It also takes a 512 point Shadowsword, or a 260 point Pask Battle Tank, to blow it up in 1 turn. 3x to 4x cost of unit to remove in 1 turn is extremely fair.
This is what I mean by the supposed "problem" being players being upset by the fact that we don't just roll over and die for them. Not only is the Rhino a vehicle that only needs to survive one turn, and will probably have done its job before we get to even have a crack at killing it, it easily takes 4 times its cost for us to destroy. Why should our tough unit meant to protect our killy things for a turn be killiable for equal or only twice it's cost?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Finally, I see the resistance to their survivability as SM players being upset that IG players want to play in the sandbox a different way from the way SM players play. At least the way I see it, I'm hearing "I find playing against you un-fun because you sit over there and shoot at me". Well, I also find it equally un-fun when a half-dozen Drop-Pods/Tyrannocytes drop from the sky and crap out stuff that begins methodically demolishing my battle line before I even get to fire a shot. And, of course, Conscripts aren't beating Stormtrooper Drop or Guilliman and Razorbacks in competitive play, so there's that.
Well... they find it unfun because you are barely playing the game at that point. What exactly are you doing from turn one onwards? Picking the optimal targets and rolling the die is the sum total of your contribution to the army. Meanwhile, I'm trying desperately to find an angle on your commissar, trying to have my anti infantry blow a hole in your screen, etc. It just feels one side is putting in a lot more effort than the other for no good reason and many lists flat out can't win regardless of player input.
A tactic that is, and I mean this with no offense, so mindlessly simple should have really obvious glaring weaknesses to exploit. There should be lists that you just won't win against, that are an absolute uphill battle for you. Because there are many lists that will struggle immensely against yours. I've yet to see such a counter list presented though. Even your examples of hard fought battles, like the tyranid battle, you clearly had the upper hand throughout the entire game due to list composition alone.
And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.
You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc. I'm trying hard to get you exactly where I want you.
Melee everything, especially fast melee everything, is the real definition of mindless strategy. Actually, there's one thing more mindless, and that's an entire army of Vengeance Weapons Batteries!
And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop. I know the former because I use it, and I know the latter because I've faced it twice, and both times won through rather gimmicky means relating to seizing the initiative and having a Shadowsword.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.
I'm not even sure what unit you are referencing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc.
No offense, but that still sounds like a lot less work than trying to counter the army.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop.
Except we've established in the former it's literally because dominions themselves have access to cheap storm bolters in mass, something other armies lack. Even that.... I mean, you'd need what 8 of them to reliably clear by the end of turn 3 (given 4 units of conscripts, assuming 3 turns of shooting for immolator and two in RF for dominions). That's almost 1400 points of spammed anti infantry, one well beyond the abilities of most armies to produce, without accounting for causalities, and even then is just barely enough to do it more often than not. We'd basically be looking at an army of nothing but dominions in immolators to reliably clear the four units of conscripts and even that's not guaranteed to sweep this list. I mean.... no. This pretty much illustrates why it isn't balanced.
I also fail to see how you could think you are at a disadvantage vs the tyranid list, considering by all accounts when you faced an enemy using that list they were performing well above average expectations and still lost, albeit fairly closely. That's... not an uphill battle.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And how much are you playing the game if you drop off a thousand points of melee troops with 4 attacks per model that deal a bonus mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6 9" in front of my line with re-rollable charges, then just push them into contact with me, consolidate into my second rank, and repeat? As I said, two can play at that game.
I'm not even sure what unit you are referencing.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: You don't see it from my perspective. I'm arranging killzone, clearing lanes of fire, setting up my tanks and gun relative to terrain pieces to ensure that my fields of fire are clear, positioning disposable troops to force you to move into disadvantageous positions where your units will either overextend from their support or become trapped/slowed, spacing my units to mitigate the effects of your charges, selecting my targets to reduce your ability to kill my key units and thus preserve my advantage as long as possible as you cut your way to my tanks, etc.
No offense, but that still sounds like a lot less work than trying to counter the army.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: And there are two lists that are absolute uphill battles. Facing Sisters Immo-Dominions rush, and facing Tyranid Tyrannocyte-Genestealer/Hormagaunt drop.
Except we've established in the former it's literally because dominions themselves have access to cheap storm bolters in mass, something other armies lack. Even that.... I mean, you'd need what 8 of them to reliably clear by the end of turn 3 (assuming 3 turns fo shooting for immolator and two in RF for dominions). That's almost 1400 points of spammed anti infantry, one well beyond the abilities of most armies to produce. Does that really seem balanced to you?
I also fail to see how you could think you are at a disadvantage vs the tyranid list, considering by all accounts when you faced an enemy using that list they were performing well above average expectations and still lost, albeit fairly closely. That's... not an uphill battle.
Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!
The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!
To me, it always feels like I'm making a desperate last stand, trying to cripple what I can before I'm overwhelmed beneath a tide of claws, axes, chainswords, whatever. I look at melee rush armies, and that's where I see the "point and click" army. Melee as many units as you can, repeat until someone runs out of guys. Throw a tank or MC in to soak up overwatch. Doubly so because many melee units are effective against all targets, so there's no even considering which unit to attack the tanks with and which unit to attack the infantry with!
I have Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, and a little bit of Space Wolves a friend gave me when he quit the hobby. All of them play very differently, and have different decisions to make.
You know what? When my Tyranid-playing friend gets back from vacation in a week, I'll ask to play an army-swap game, and tell about it.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!
A few things:
1. Your conscripts don't inflict mortal wounds on the units they were protecting. Be kinda funny if they did though.
2. How exactly is 18 inch move enough to get in guaranteed charge range on an average table?
3. There is a big difference between "kill this unit before it gets the unit it is protecting in range to start dealing damage" and "kill this unit before the unit it is protecting tables you". You don't instant lose when the zerkers enter melee range. You can fall back and use other units to shoot, or use super heavies.
4. Three times it's points to kill it in a turn is a bit different than three times it's points to kill it in 2-3 turns before accounting for your own losses.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!
Which, combined with the things he did which were lucky (landing the early charge and getting really good melee performance from his genestealers collapsing the battle line early) seems to indicate this wasn't an uphill battle. This sounds far more like a fair fight, he managed to secure a critical early lead which was squandered with a few minor mistakes and one poorly performing unit. .
I'm going to keep harping on the list thing. Your army can easily destroy non tailored armies of all sorts, yet your "counter armies" are one that's literally just the best dedicated anti infantry and nothing else, followed by an army that, by your own account, doesn't sound like a counter, it sounds like an even match at worst.
Conscripts are 20 man units, with no extra models addable.
SO!
Like before, but not as punishing, orders going to a 10 man unit of Guardsmen, 20 man Conscript, or 5 man Scion are about the same, you trade off some accuracy for durability, the Commissar still works but can't herd quite as many, and again, no new rules are added, just change the unit size from 20-50 to a flat 20.
Huh, I just realized something and I feel rather dumb for not making the connection before, but not only does smaller size make it harder to benefit from buffs and auras, more units means another potential morale loss that previously wasn't there. Yeah, I could see that working. Could even max out at 25 just to be exactly half of what it is now.
There's a problem with only comparing the durability of conscripts vs MEQ using low strength weapons with no AP. Try comparing them when getting fired upon by S5/6 and/or AP-1 weapons. Or even the Kastellan Robots with their S6 AP-2 D1 ignoring cover. These types of weapons can make their points back no problem by killing MEQ, there is no answer with the same efficiency vs conscripts.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
This points limit heavily, heavily favours the conscripts, giving them exactly their optimum stuff, but forcing other solutions at ssay 413 points to drop down to under 400, losing efficiency in an unrealistic way, because games aren't played at this pointage. I'll give it a go though.
Warlock with Conceal, 1 Squad of Rangers, 1 Squad of Swooping hawks (exarch with Sunrifle), 1 Nightwing. 391 pts.
Eldar Turn 1
Searchlights Destroyed by Nightwing, Commisar Wounded. Warlock casts Conceal.
Guard Turn 1
Move towards Concelaed Rangers
Eldar Turn 2
Commisar Killed, Hawks join Rangers and fire at long range. Nightwing fires at Conscripts. Exarch shoots different saqud to everyone else.
Concscripts lose 6 to shooting, 6 to Morale. Bigger Conscripts lose 1 to shooting, 1 to morale.
Guard Turn 2
Move towards Rangers. Only the small squad can fire. It does 1 wound to the night wing, the only target it can hit.
Eldar Turn 3
Conscripts lose 8 to shooting, 8 to morale. This squad is now down to 22 men. The big squad loses 1 to the Exarch and 1 to Morale.
Guard Turn 3
Move + advance. Still can't fire. Small sqaud could fire at the Nightwing, but would likely do nothing and just be slower in getting over to the Eldar.
Eldar Turn 3
Fall back, fire. Rangers and Warlock Advance. Small squad of Conscripts loses 12 to morale and shooting combined (Rangers can't fire). Big squad loses another 2.
Guard turn 4
Advance.
Eldar Turn 4
Rangers move forwards towards the smaller conscript squad. Hawks fall back with Warlock. the larger cosncript squad loses 14 to morale and shooting. The Rangers fire their pistols at the small squad doing 2 casualties, then charge, doing 1 more. The return attacks from 7 conscripts kill 1 ranger. In total the small conscripts lose 3 to fighting and 3 to morale.
Guard Turn 4
The Rangers are assaulted and killed.
Eldar Turn 5
The big squad loses a further 14.
At this point both squads of Conscripts are crippled and can't win, the Eldar also have the mobility to grab objectives, which the conscripts do not and are winning on kill points. The Eldar will mop up the remaining guys in T6 and 7 if the game goes on. It's possible that the Eldar needed to start falling back a turn earlier, this would not really have made much difference.
This doesn't really prove anything about conscripts, it was just a fun challenge. It would be much much easier if I could use DE and/or Ynarri. This is then over much quicker. CWE suck at this match up in particular so was hard to find the right units.
"Marines can do just fine with a stack of Razorbacks, Tacticals, and Roboute Guilliman."
There are marines other than Ultramarines. And the last stack of of razorbacks I saw got fried really badly by wave serpents. The twin assault cannon is a list tailoring choice and fails hard against enemy mech. Which the IG will also likely have.
Remember you have to deal with Manticores, Chimeras, Demolishers, sentinels, Valkryies, AND conscripts. Not just conscripts.
Interestingly another answer to conscripts is Elysian Cyclops Demolition vehicles. Drop around the conscripts then just drive up to them and explode. Each vehicle costs 40 points, and will kill about 6 conscripts from every squad in range when it explodes (range is d6") also unlikely to die to 100 rapid firing conscripts, or at the most they will kill one. Then the rest jsut drive up and pop.
Weird solution.
Nice thing is they are also very deadly against tanks, if the conscripts have been cleared another way.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
This points limit heavily, heavily favours the conscripts, giving them exactly their optimum stuff, but forcing other solutions at ssay 413 points to drop down to under 400, losing efficiency in an unrealistic way, because games aren't played at this pointage. I'll give it a go though.
Warlock with Conceal, 1 Squad of Rangers, 1 Squad of Swooping hawks (exarch with Sunrifle), 1 Nightwing. 391 pts.
Eldar Turn 1
Searchlights Destroyed by Nightwing, Commisar Wounded. Warlock casts Conceal.
Guard Turn 1
Move towards Concelaed Rangers
Eldar Turn 2
Commisar Killed, Hawks join Rangers and fire at long range. Nightwing fires at Conscripts. Exarch shoots different saqud to everyone else.
Concscripts lose 6 to shooting, 6 to Morale. Bigger Conscripts lose 1 to shooting, 1 to morale.
Guard Turn 2
Move towards Rangers. Only the small squad can fire. It does 1 wound to the night wing, the only target it can hit.
Eldar Turn 3
Conscripts lose 8 to shooting, 8 to morale. This squad is now down to 22 men. The big squad loses 1 to the Exarch and 1 to Morale.
Guard Turn 3
Move + advance. Still can't fire. Small sqaud could fire at the Nightwing, but would likely do nothing and just be slower in getting over to the Eldar.
Eldar Turn 3
Fall back, fire. Rangers and Warlock Advance. Small squad of Conscripts loses 12 to morale and shooting combined (Rangers can't fire). Big squad loses another 2.
Guard turn 4
Advance.
Eldar Turn 4
Rangers move forwards towards the smaller conscript squad. Hawks fall back with Warlock. the larger cosncript squad loses 14 to morale and shooting. The Rangers fire their pistols at the small squad doing 2 casualties, then charge, doing 1 more. The return attacks from 7 conscripts kill 1 ranger. In total the small conscripts lose 3 to fighting and 3 to morale.
Guard Turn 4
The Rangers are assaulted and killed.
Eldar Turn 5
The big squad loses a further 14.
At this point both squads of Conscripts are crippled and can't win, the Eldar also have the mobility to grab objectives, which the conscripts do not and are winning on kill points. The Eldar will mop up the remaining guys in T6 and 7 if the game goes on. It's possible that the Eldar needed to start falling back a turn earlier, this would not really have made much difference.
This doesn't really prove anything about conscripts, it was just a fun challenge. It would be much much easier if I could use DE and/or Ynarri. This is then over much quicker. CWE suck at this match up in particular so was hard to find the right units.
Eldar Turn 1:
There are two searchlights, and the Nightwing can only destroy one
IG Turn 1:
Kill half the rangers with searchlight to balance cloak+conceal back to 6+, and frfsrf on a conscript squad. (100 shots, 16 hit, 8 wound, 2-3 fail saves and die)
(Note on range: Commissar can stand 6" behind the back of the conscript line. rangers have 36" range. the back of the conscript line is 30" from the rangers. They can move 6" and shoot 24". The back line is therefor in range of the rangers, which means, of course, that the entire squad is in range of the rangers.)
Eldar turn 2:
Sure, let's say you get the luck and the commissar dies to the last couple rangers. I won't check your math on damage to conscripts, It looks about right.
IG turn 2:
This is the part that always blows my mind. The swooping hawks have a 24" range. The conscripts have a 24" range. How on earth do the hawks hit the conscripts and yet, according to you, they're not in range to be fired upon in return? What actually happens here is that the hawks are easily wiped by one squad while the rangers are either wiped or brought down to one model left. Then there's just a warlock left between the IG and an auto-victory (post flier FAQ - they can't hold a table)
I did see another list with 2xPhoenix that had a decent chance of beating this challenge, if you ignore the inability of fliers to hold a table. I am annoyed that I am being forced into forgeworld, but I guess that's the only way to beat forgeworld (searchlights).
You are right about one thing though, and that is that it's not fair to hold counter armies to exactly 401 points. If someone came up with something for 413 (or whatever) I wouldn't rule it out.
The Nightwing can deal 6 wounds and would take 2 out on average, but I just realised I forgot it can't split the fire on its shuriken cannon (as its twin not 2). So that changes things, but 2 Bright Lances kill one search light, the Twin Cannon gets the second down to one wound then I use the Snipers to finish the second one. Sure this slows things down a bit (have to kill the commisar a turn later), but the Eldar still win because they can't be shot. It's not range it's hit penalties.
If you are willing to include DE or possibly HArlequins or Ynarri this gets much easier.
At 427 you can have Warlock, 5 Rangers, 2 Nightwings, which wins this engagement also.
The searchlights have 48" range and wouldn't normally be within range of the snipers. But lets say you deployed forward using the rangers special and just barely got them - now the guard have at most one turn to move+advance, then on turn 2 you damage the commissar (or get crazy luck and kill him, it won't matter), then drop your hawks down and unload. The conscripts can still easily charge your rangers with one squad and frfsrf to kill your hawks with the other.
These aren't very close hypothetical situations that could be swung by a key roll or a tight inch on the battlefield. This is a one-sided slaughter in IG's favor every time.
Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?
Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights. If the search lights are directly 12" behind your conscripts then my snipers still only have to be within 24" of the conscripts due to the board, if they are off to the side I still don't have to close, just move right and left. On a 4X4 board you can't back away that far, I can always be within 36" of the searchlights and out of 24" of the conscripts, I think. Might have missed an angle somewhere.
Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?
Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.
By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.
Meanwhile, in close combat the rangers lose all their buffs. The 5 hp are only protected by 5+ saves, so 7.5 wounds, which means 15 hits, and that means 45 attacks. So I guess it might take them two turns, if for some reason the more heavily damaged squad is the one that charges the rangers.
Deathypoo wrote: By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.
How are the conscripts getting more than 0 hits on the hawks? -1 for Conceal, -1 for Sunrifle is -2 to hit.
Deathypoo wrote: Meanwhile, in close combat the rangers lose all their buffs. The 5 hp are only protected by 5+ saves, so 7.5 wounds, which means 15 hits, and that means 45 attacks. So I guess it might take them two turns, if for some reason the more heavily damaged squad is the one that charges the rangers.
In combat the rangers were a speed bump. I assumed they would get wiped in one turn.
I must admit I am doing these as back of an envelope calcs so might be missing somehting.
Drager wrote: Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?
Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights.
Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?
Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.
If we're going to randomly drop advantageous los blocking terrain, you can't kill the commissar. An open board seems the least jinky way of dealing with it, and 4'x4' because 6'4' just invites "well my artillery shoots you for 3 turns uninterrupted while you run across 6' of table." I didn't want those answers.
Besides, that was a throw-away comment. I addressed the scenario as if you could shoot them, because again - it doesn't help you enough. I even gave you the commissar kill. It doesn't matter, it's not close no matter how many things you hand to the Eldar player.
I'm not saying frfsrf on the rangers, which I agreed they can't hit in your hypothetical, I said the rangers get charged. The frfsrf is on the hawks.
One conscript squad can kill the scorpions while the other advances toward the rangers. They can both afford to leave a tail to the officers.
Drager wrote: Oh? You are not deploying the searchlights midfield?
Sorry, I thought you would be positioning them like in a normal game. I also forgot you made the board smaller than standard to advantage the searchlights.
Is there not enough Los blocking terrain to hide from a searchlight? If you are deploying them back then I just won't be in LoS of them generally. this is a weird board set up that 100% advantages the guard you have going on. Also how are they frfsrf when they can't hit?
Another army: 6 Rangers, 5 Striking Scorpions, Warlock, Nightwing. Scorpions DS in and kill one searchlight, Nightwing kills the other. The conscripts can kill the scorpions, but if the searchlights are deployed back as you suggest they won't be advancing when they do.
If we're going to randomly drop advantageous los blocking terrain, you can't kill the commissar. An open board seems the least jinky way of dealing with it, and 4'x4' because 6'4' just invites "well my artillery shoots you for 3 turns uninterrupted while you run across 6' of table." I didn't want those answers.
Besides, that was a throw-away comment. I addressed the scenario as if you could shoot them, because again - it doesn't help you enough. I even gave you the commissar kill. It doesn't matter, it's not close no matter how many things you hand to the Eldar player.
I'm not saying frfsrf on the rangers, which I agreed they can't hit in your hypothetical, I said the rangers get charged. The frfsrf is on the hawks.
One conscript squad can kill the scorpions while the other advances toward the rangers. They can both afford to leave a tail to the officers.
He's saying that with Conceal and the Sunrifle, the Hawks are immune to FRFSRF - nothing about the rangers.
Deathypoo wrote: By the way, in case you think I'm being hyperbolic in saying the hawks will just keel over dead... 5 hawks with 4+ save need to take 10 wounds, with T3 and S3 lasguns they need to take 20 hits, and with a 5+ BS (because I guess the searchlights are dead) the guards need 60 shots. That means, assuming you manage to stay out of rapid fire range, only 30 conscripts need to be alive to wipe the hawks in one turn.
How are the conscripts getting more than 0 hits on the hawks? -1 for Conceal, -1 for Sunrifle is -2 to hit.
.
I didn't realize the hawks were dropping on top of the rangers with a sunrifle (missed that if you said it, my bad). It's true that one squad would be unable to hit them, and the non-sunrifled squad would be at 6+. Although they'd be in rapid fire range if they're on top of the warlock/rangers, so that balances out to the same math I posted before. Hit half as often, but twice as many hits.
How are the conscripts that close? They were 24" away when the Hawks dropped (assuming the most advantage to the guard). The larger squad is the one hit with the sun rifle every time so it can't fire.
Let's change the deployment so you have the searchlights way back and assume that the Nightwing can only kill one. I'm also assuming the commisar and commander are in the middle of the blob so they can't get tagged by the Nightwing.
Let's also make this planet bowling ball as you suggest.
Let's say that this setup puts the Rangers over 30" away from the front of the squad and able to tag the commissar.
Eldar 1
The Nightwing kills one Searchlight and does 2 wounds to the other. The Rangers wound the Commissar.
Guard Turn 1
Move towards Rangers. Maybe do 1-3 wounds to the Nightwing dependant on position.
Eldar Turn 2
Dead Commisar, Hawks drop at 24". Nightwing kills the last searchlight and 5 guardsmen, then Hawks kill 2 guardsmen and the Exarch tags the other squad (the big one). Then they lose the same again to morale.
Small Conscripts: 36 Guys
Big Conscripts: 48 Guys
Guard Turn 2
Move Forwards (18" from the hawks), FRFSRF at the Hawks with the small squad (big squad can't hit). This kills 3 hawks.
Eldar Turn 3
Hawks move back to the same location as the Rangers/Warlock (now at range 21"ish). The big squad loses 2 to shooting and morale from the exarch, the small squad loses 14 to all other shooting and morale combined.
Small Conscripts: 22 Guys
Big Conscripts: 46 Guys
Guard Turn 3
Move forward again (at~15"). FRFSRF with the small squad again. Kill the last Hawk, wound the Exarch.
Eldar Turn 4
Fall back (at edge of the board now ~20") Repeat the previous turns fire
Small Conscripts: 7 Guys
Big Conscripts: 44 Guys
Guard Turn 4
Move forward. Have no effect.
Eldar Turn 5
Move left or right to increase distance, put the Rangers out front as a speed bump, moving up towards the guard. Focus fire on the big squad
Small Squad 7 guys
Big Squad 28 guys
Guard Turn 5
Rangers die
With this set up it is pretty close and not as dominating for the eldar as in my first scenario, but I am assuming no cover of any kind exists and setting up a scenario which really favours the conscripts.
Drager wrote: How are the conscripts that close? They were 24" away when the Hawks dropped (assuming the most advantage to the guard). The larger squad is the one hit with the sun rifle every time so it can't fire.
Let's change the deployment so you have the searchlights way back and assume that the Nightwing can only kill one. I'm also assuming the commisar and commander are in the middle of the blob so they can't get tagged by the Nightwing.
Have you ever played a decent IG opponent? They will put little tails behind their conscripts - just a couple models, to keep the commissars back and yet also surrounded from all sides. Granted, I normally ignore these when mathing out how many shots they have, but it's not super-advanced tactical deployment.
Let's also make this planet bowling ball as you suggest.
Let's say that this setup puts the Rangers over 30" away from the front of the squad and able to tag the commissar.
literally impossible. Rangers have a 36" range. The commissar can be 6" behind the back of the unit (ok, minus the tail guys that I didn't think I had to specify. 6" back behind 47~48 units of the guard). That means that the ENTIRE unit (minus those 2-3), are *under* 30" away from the rangers.
Eldar 1
The Nightwing kills one Searchlight and does 2 wounds to the other. The Rangers wound the Commissar.
Guard Turn 1
Move towards Rangers. Maybe do 1-3 wounds to the Nightwing dependant on position.
If the searchlight is still up, the shoot the rangers, which they moved towards. The unit that doesn't have a searchlight to shoot with can advance forward again.
Eldar Turn 2
Dead Commisar, Hawks drop at 24". Nightwing kills the last searchlight and 5 guardsmen, then Hawks kill 2 guardsmen and the Exarch tags the other squad (the big one). Then they lose the same again to morale.
Small Conscripts: 36 Guys
Big Conscripts: 48 Guys
Do the hawks drop in on top of the warlock+rangers for conceal, or at 24"? Because those are now two very different places
Guard Turn 2
Move Forwards (18" from the hawks), FRFSRF at the Hawks with the small squad (big squad can't hit). This kills 3 hawks.
We're starting to get way off on range but whatever, let's say that the "big squad" is the one that advanced last turn, so the small squad still doesn't have rapid fire and your total is good.
Eldar Turn 3
Hawks move back to the same location as the Rangers/Warlock (now at range 21"ish). The big squad loses 2 to shooting and morale from the exarch, the small squad loses 14 to all other shooting and morale combined.
Small Conscripts: 22 Guys
Big Conscripts: 46 Guys
Or right I forgot the rangers in your scenario started by sniping a commissar outside their max range. Errr... we're too far off to even share notes now. This is the turn the guardsmen charge you in real life.
It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description on is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?
I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.
You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.
Drager wrote: It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?
Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.
This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.
Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.
I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.
You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.
I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.
My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.
Drager wrote: It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?
Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.
This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.
Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.
I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.
You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.
I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.
My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.
Cool. I'll work on it a bit more. I should point out I've assumed no cover for the prior scenario.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what you have described as soon as the blobs move forward a melee deep striker could just assault the officers fairly easily, without assaulting the guardsmen. Also with the tail that far apart a plane can easily land so that it is closest to the commissar and not the unit. Can I also ask, are you willing to add other Eldar to your lists?
Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".
Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Let me try another way: A Rhino is 70 points. A Rhino is a unit expressely design to provide an added layer of protection against shooting attacks for the troops inside, that I have to spend a turn killing before being able to attack the troops inside. If I use Manticores, it takes 400 points of Manticores to kill it in 1 turn. By your standard, how is that fair at all if I can't get rid of this obstacle efficiently, since if I can't kill it in 1 turn there's going to be a giant pile of Berzerkers attacking me? And that's before we consider the fact that you probably have 3 or 4 Rhinos full of Berzerkers!
A few things:
1. Your conscripts don't inflict mortal wounds on the units they were protecting. Be kinda funny if they did though.
2. How exactly is 18 inch move enough to get in guaranteed charge range on an average table?
3. There is a big difference between "kill this unit before it gets the unit it is protecting in range to start dealing damage" and "kill this unit before the unit it is protecting tables you". You don't instant lose when the zerkers enter melee range. You can fall back and use other units to shoot, or use super heavies.
4. Three times it's points to kill it in a turn is a bit different than three times it's points to kill it in 2-3 turns before accounting for your own losses.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: The Tyranid guy made a mistake that cost the game. First off he had 2 Mawlocs, which critically underperfomed in a spectacular way. At least they soaked up some gunfire from the Shadowsword, I guess. Second, he didn't charge it with his Hive Tyrant while he had the chance, which would have allowed him to kill it. He tried to kill a Basilisk instead, which was a major mistake. I wasn't panicking, but I was on the edge of disaster all game. He was in combat with my Shadowsword on turn 3, and took 12 wounds off it then and there. That was basically my only unit left! My only other thing was an ordinary Leman Russ with 7 wounds remaining. The game was all about the Shadowsword, and it's ability to keep shooting while in melee, because my frontline and second line collapsed so fast I didn't even know what happened. It could have collapsed even faster if he had fought with his Tyrant instead of his Hormagaunts, and he'd have consolidated into the Shadowsword on turn 1! My deployment zone isn't that big!
Which, combined with the things he did which were lucky (landing the early charge and getting really good melee performance from his genestealers collapsing the battle line early) seems to indicate this wasn't an uphill battle. This sounds far more like a fair fight, he managed to secure a critical early lead which was squandered with a few minor mistakes and one poorly performing unit. .
I'm going to keep harping on the list thing. Your army can easily destroy non tailored armies of all sorts, yet your "counter armies" are one that's literally just the best dedicated anti infantry and nothing else, followed by an army that, by your own account, doesn't sound like a counter, it sounds like an even match at worst.
Oh my god, one or two guys in ten might die! That's such a major loss! Losses from vehicles being destroyed are so negligible considering how many points went into obliterating the vehicle they might as well not be a thing.
Rhinos serve the same purpose for an assault army as conscripts do for ours. To make us require extra turn of shooting on us before we can begin to cripple your army. It also takes about 4 times Conscript's cost to kill them in 1 turn.
As far as movement with a Rhino, a Rhino also effectively doesn't count as a deployment drop, so it's helping you to go first. It moves 12" and advances D6" on turn 1, or however safe you feel getting close to the Conscripts. On turn 2, or when the vehicle blows up, the package of nasty gets out 3" from the vehicle than moves 6", that's 21" if you want to fire your Rhino's weapons, potentially 27". The minimum result possible on a charge is 3" [2 on the dice, +1"]. On any scenario other than Hammer and Anvil and Spearhead Assault, the 24" is enough to reach the frontline guaranteed.
Also, making the charge wasn't "lucky". Genestealers re-roll charges and Hormagaunts add 1 to their charge rolls, the Hive Tyrant was in my face already, and he spent a Command Point to get in with the Hormagaunts.
With regards to my Sisters list, they're an all-comer's list. I run about 50/50 Storm Bolters and Meltaguns on the Dominions, and 50/50 Immolation Flamers and Multimeltas on the Immolators. In addition, Seraphim can move 24" then jump over the conscripts to charge the tanks, depending on how I feel about a 8" charge. It handles gunline IG just fine. I haven't brought it up against deep-striking Tyranids, the list that I'm basically terrified of, because that is a list with almost no counterplay.
Let's look at this mathematically. A IG tank is 4.5" long. The first Conscript line is set up about .5" behind the edge of the deployment zone, the second line is set up 4.5" behind the first. Bases are 1", so that means the conscripts are consuming the front 7" of the deployment zone. For Dawn of War, there's then .5" behind the second ranks, and then the tanks, because there's nowhere else to go. For Frontline Assault, it's worse, because the deployment is thinner, forcing the IG to concentrate in the center where there's space. For Vanguard Strike and Search and Destroy, the tanks are forced to cluster up, and still don't have a lot of space between them and the Conscripts [from experience, I've tried it], but one or two could get back out of reach. Only for Spearhead Assault and Hammer and Anvil is there enough backfield space to put the tanks out of reach in turn 1, but, assuming you passed the Conscripts, they're definitely going to be in reach on turn 2. Keep in mind that, on Vanguard Assault and Search and Destroy it's also nearly impossible for the tanks to seek cover from ranged antitank options.
ross-128 wrote: Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".
Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.
So what? you're still charging conscripts. Your units will not make it past them.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
ross-128 wrote: Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".
I forgot to calculate the advance for the rhino turn one and the extra three inches for leaving the vehicle (but did include the unit's movement), but that's still just barely hitting the 24" range (12+3.5+6+3), and most deployment zones are large enough you can stand back a ways. Even if you just need to hit the average 7 for your charge distance and they get to reroll every failed charge, that's still only around a 50-60% chance overall, including the advance roll's chance of failure.
I'm not saying it isn't possible, but a guarantee?
Drager wrote: It's OK to disagree with the way I was envisaging the scenario, but acting as though your impression of the initial position is what I am basing my description of is hugely disingenuous. How about you tell me how you are deploying the guard? How wide is the frontage for the conscripts, where are the officers? How big are your little tails? Where are the search lights?
Fair enough. I imagine the guard to deploy in two tight rectangles in the center of the deployment zone, as far forward as possible. The rectangles are something like 8x6" each, so a total front 16" across and 6" deep. 2 Conscripts from either blob form a 6" tail back behind it from the rough center of each blob, which reaches to the back of the table. Beside the tip of each tail is the searchlight. The commissar and officer are between the tails, 3" from each side, just a step in front of the rear guy so nothing dropping behind them (when they move forward away from the table edge) can shoot them.
This assumes that whatever cover the rangers are being placed in is pretty much also front and center. It can pretty easily adjust to likely ranger deployment locations.
Keep in mind I've also had no problem assuming the rangers have cover and los to commissar no matter where they deploy, this whole time. I'm honestly not trying to tilt this to favor IG, I'd rather get a workable solution to my problem IRL games then win an internet argument.
I should also point out I have played against a large number of very good players. In 8th I've only played against blobs of conscripts 8 or 9 times or so, so not a huge amount, and I don't play CWE, so I am trying (at your request) to come up with a way for a codex I don't play and don't like to win against another codex I take a few units from to back up by GSC, but using none of the units I regularly use.
You are also setting up a very odd scenario, whereby immobile searchlights can be set up in such a way that infiltrating Rangers can't hide from them and still see their target, but that's ok, it's your playpen and it's now planet bowling ball. In the real world, your scenario is totally unrealistic.
I am currently sitting on a 100% win rate against non-IG and a 100% loss-rate against IG haha... not that many games yet though.
My normal gaming tables are a little sparse on terrain, and also have the built-in hills from the GW 2x2 tiles, so los is rarely difficult. This is a very realistic scenario for me in the real world.
Cool. I'll work on it a bit more. I should point out I've assumed no cover for the prior scenario.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what you have described as soon as the blobs move forward a melee deep striker could just assault the officers fairly easily, without assaulting the guardsmen. Also with the tail that far apart a plane can easily land so that it is closest to the commissar and not the unit. Can I also ask, are you willing to add other Eldar to your lists?
With no cover, how are the rangers immune to being shot? They need the cover to get -1 to hit, and also I was calculating their armor save at 3+ for cover, not 5+
The tails can be tweaked a bit. Pulled in to stop flyers landing there (is that enough space? I hadn't thought so but I didn't check), and pulled out a bit to stop deep strikers that could pull off a charge. When you deploy you'll know what you're up against, and a few more conscripts to make fancy tails goes a long, long way towards stopping shenanigans aimed at the officers. My typical opponent doesn't ever move his officers from the back edge (where, in a normal size game they're also surrounded by heavy weapons teams and tanks), and just extends his conscripts' tail as required.
And yeah, I realize that in this edition things are more open, but also saying I should get Dark Eldar or Forgeworld feels exactly like saying "just play space marines." I'm waffling on my Forgeworld feelings, but having played on and off since 3rd edition I can't shake from my head that Forgeworld is overpriced and overpowered and designed for apocalypse games only. I know only the "overpowered" part of that is still true these days
SilverAlien wrote: Huh, I just realized something and I feel rather dumb for not making the connection before, but not only does smaller size make it harder to benefit from buffs and auras, more units means another potential morale loss that previously wasn't there. Yeah, I could see that working. Could even max out at 25 just to be exactly half of what it is now.
Yeah, that's why the Compromise focuses on the size. I think that's the best way to deal with it as a smaller unit goes after the core problems ... Order efficiency, Commissar morale immunity, and "Good luck killing 400 guys before time runs out" at the same time, without changing any points costs or adding any new rules.
The core size of 20 guys gives it a design space, allows for some shenanigans but not *massive* ones, and the need for more Troops slots to get massive levels means that you have to take other units as a 'tax' to make it viable. (Mind you, that's still 120 guys in a normal detatchment, but, it's a start.) ...
I honestly think it's the best solution.
Just rewrite the entry as "This unit contains 20 Conscripts" and leave out the "Add * more section, and change the force chart from 20-50 to just 20.
Taa daa.
It's the simplest fix and fair to everyone, I think.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
Assuming you had any shooting whatsoever, nothing, because you went first.
I feel this thread is rapidly descending into silliness - but do you not play with seize the initiative?
Or perhaps more accurately, try to seize, immediately burn a command point to try again?
The IG player will go first about a third of the time.
Both players get a "turn 1." Even if the guard player goes second, they get to act in turn 1.
You can't advance a rhino and disembark. So the guard player isn't being charged turn 1.
Yes, both players get a turn 1. That is correct. I was being a little snide about your "full strength" comment. The guard army is not shooting at anything with its full strength because you've already shot at it (presuming you actually have anything except melee units). Thus, it is not "full strength".
Both players get a "turn 1." Even if the guard player goes second, they get to act in turn 1.
You can't advance a rhino and disembark. So the guard player isn't being charged turn 1.
Yes, both players get a turn 1. That is correct. I was being a little snide about your "full strength" comment. The guard army is not shooting at anything with its full strength because you've already shot at it (presuming you actually have anything except melee units). Thus, it is not "full strength".
The manticores and wyverns will certainly be at full strength.
ross-128 wrote: Regarding the Rhino: an 18" move is *easily* enough to get a charge off. 18" movement, 3" of disembark range, 6" of walking, that's 27" you have just for positioning. Deployment zones are typically separated by 24".
Also, since apparently searchlights are getting added to the discussion, remember that they don't stack.
So what? you're still charging conscripts. Your units will not make it past them.
And, what is the guard army shooting at with its full strength on its turn 1?
Then it shoots the rhinos, who have already accomplished their task. Let me drive this point home: when the IG gets to shoot the Rhinos, they've already move up 12"-18" and no longer have to worry about their continued existence. Their survival is merely a convenience.
Then, the nasty that was inside, let's say Berzerkers, piles out of the Rhinos, and moves up to charge the Conscripts.
Allow me to arrange this hypothetical matchup:
Spoiler:
2000:
IG: CC, 100 Conscripts, 10 Guardsmen, Commissar, Pask Battle Tank, 2 Command Battle Tanks, 2 Leman Russ Punishers, 2 Manticores, 2 Wyverns, total 8 CP from a Battalion and 2 Spearheads.
Chaos: Kharn, 39x Berzerkers, Sorceror, 17x Rubrics, Predator with Lascannons, 6x Rhinos. total 5 CP in 2 Vanguards
Deployment pattern is a roll off, but IG has CP to burn trying to get the most favorable pattern, so they chose Hammer and Anvil.
Chaos has 7 drops, and it's fairly straightforward: All the Rhinos line up on the front line, 4 full of Berzkers [and Kharn], 2 with Rubrics [and the Sorcerer].
IG has many drops. The Battle Tanks and artillery disperse along the back edge, and the Punishers sit next to and in front of their Commanders, with the Infantry squad between them giving a little extra shelter for the TC's. The Conscripts line up 4.5" ahead of the tanks in 2 lines, 4.5" apart.
Chaos goes first, and move all the Rhinos up the board. The Chaos Predator shoots a anti-infantry tank, and will spend a CP to ensure a good damage result. It probably doesn't die, but is at least degrades. Rhinos pepper the first rank of conscripts with Combi-bolter fire.
IG fires, and blows up the Predator, and 1 Rhino. These guys pile out into cover if they can, otherwise they stand around and die.
Chaos unloads everything, and uses Warptime to move Kharn, who was probably in the blown up Rhino but can't be targeted, up the board to meet up with his friends the Berzerkers move directly into the face of the first rank. Rubrics blast the first rank, and so do the Rhinos, and so do the Berzerker's Bolt Pistols, killing off about 30. It's not the whole unit, but between it, the first turn's combi-bolter fire, and smites, it opens a path through to the second rank, who are a 9" charge for the Berzerkers and a 7" for the Rhinos. Since the Berzerkers can re-roll charges, this isn't a big deal, and even then they could charge the first rank and use clever positioning to be allowed to pile in to the second rank. The Rhinos try to charge, both ranks. there are 5, at least 2 ought to make it, turning off overwatch. The Berzerkers charge both units, and delete the Conscripts. 30 Berzerkers, re-rolling to-hits, generating new attacks on a 6, will kind of do that.
IG unloads again, with more fire. Most of it will be directed at Berzerkers, and about half to two-thirds will die, depending on how well the IG rolls.
Chaos goes, and is within reach of all the vehicles for assault. Shoot with Rubrics at the tanks and Smite them, then charge, first with Rhinos, then with Berzerkers. Go for the Manticores and Wyverns first with the Berzerkers, and get rid of them.
Anyway, from this point onwards, the IG can't shoot, so it's a matter of time while Berzerkers stay in CQC with the tanks. The Rhinos break off the cap the objectives at the end of the game, as do the Rubrics, and that should be that.
The IG in this scenario has a dilemma, actually. The multi-melta armed Battle Tanks can start further forwards, giving them a shot at cracking open Rhinos, but also leaving them caught in the second turn charges, or they can stay back and not get to use the multimeltas until turn 2.
The IG wants to set up the tanks forwards, and then retreat through the conscript line on turn 1, that way, in the 1/3 chance that the initiative is siezed, they can press the advantage, move into range, and crack open the Rhinos early.
Fething BA. There was no way I was going to buy 5 ravens, and that got nerfbatted right out of box. Deservedly so, I might add. But it seemed that that was our big scheme this edition. Good job, GW.
BA: arguably best model line in the game, with sewage for crunch.
The chaos player has a +1 to go first, but it's still a roll-off, and the Guard player can still seize.
The guard player should ignore the Predator. It won't deal enough damage per turn by itself, and it's been orphaned in the back line with no rerolls. We're assuming it has a predator auto-cannon, which wounds Leman Russ on 5's, which isn't a threat. Then, it has 2 lascannon shots per turn. That's less than 1 expected wound per turn. Focusing it with your range is a colossal mistake.
The combined might of that guard army would destroy more than 1 rhino. The conscripts would get FRFSRF and annihilate the berzerkers in the popped rhinos. Wyverns could help if need be.
The remaining rhinos could easily be charged and bubble-wrapped (or nearly bubble wrapped) by the first wave of conscripts. The chaos player is forced to retreat the rhinos if he is even able to. At this point the game is over.
Martel732 wrote: Fething BA. There was no way I was going to buy 5 ravens, and that got nerfbatted right out of box. Deservedly so, I might add. But it seemed that that was our big scheme this edition. Good job, GW.
BA: arguably best model line in the game, with sewage for crunch.
BA, is, at best, the 3rd nicest model line. You do not have tanks that are rolling pipe organs, and you definitely are also behind the Grey Knights. Though Sanguinary Guard are pretty cool looking, which might get #3.
Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA
The chaos player has a +1 to go first, but it's still a roll-off, and the Guard player can still seize.
The guard player should ignore the Predator. It won't deal enough damage per turn by itself, and it's been orphaned in the back line with no rerolls. We're assuming it has a predator auto-cannon, which wounds Leman Russ on 5's, which isn't a threat. Then, it has 2 lascannon shots per turn. That's less than 1 expected wound per turn. Focusing it with your range is a colossal mistake.
The combined might of that guard army would destroy more than 1 rhino. The conscripts would get FRFSRF and annihilate the berzerkers in the popped rhinos. Wyverns could help if need be.
The remaining rhinos could easily be charged and bubble-wrapped (or nearly bubble wrapped) by the first wave of conscripts. The chaos player is forced to retreat the rhinos if he is even able to. At this point the game is over.
No, it's Twin-Las. The predator is a must-destroy, because 4x Lascannons can absolutely degrade a Leman Russ a turn, and if it's around on turn 2, it's going to go after the other Punisher, and that's going to seriously cut the IG's ability to deal with the Berzerkers.
"Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
Martel732 wrote: "Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
LasPreds are very good. You can knock out a Leman Russ a turn with 1. The Leman Russ won't blow up, but hitting on 6's makes the tank basically a non-factor.
Baal Preds can also take down plenty of conscripts. It gets 12 AC shots, 12 HB shots, 2-4 Storm Bolter shots, and a H-K Missile. The Captain can give re-rolls too. That's about 15 conscripts removed per Predator. Two of them sound like enough, one if you also have a Crusader.
I'd avoid offering infantry targets early in the game, and not commit particularly heavily to infantry killing. Load up with tanks, and take out their anti-infantry tanks. You'll lose your tanks to their anti-tank tanks, but if you play your cards right you can cripple their anti-infantry firepower in time for your infantry, who can kill both tanks and infantry, to arrive on the battlefield.
Martel732 wrote: "Anyway, I'd recommend trying something with Baal Predators [Twin Assault Cannon], Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Veterans, Predators [Twin Las], and maybe a Crusader full of nasty. I don't really know what's what for the BA"
None of that is remotely efficient enough to make a dent in conscripts. At least, not a big enough dent with all the other IG fire coming back. GW just underestimated T3 5+ this edition. And then undercosted a couple other IG units, and BAMO. They're off to the races. Most of those units you listed aren't really that good in practice. Most are overcosted.
LasPreds are very good. You can knock out a Leman Russ a turn with 1. The Leman Russ won't blow up, but hitting on 6's makes the tank basically a non-factor.
Baal Preds can also take down plenty of conscripts. It gets 12 AC shots, 12 HB shots, 2-4 Storm Bolter shots, and a H-K Missile. The Captain can give re-rolls too. That's about 15 conscripts removed per Predator. Two of them can make.
I'd avoid offering infantry targets early in the game, and not commit particularly heavily to infantry killing. Load up with tanks, and take out their anti-infantry tanks. You'll lose your tanks to their anti-tank tanks, but if you play your cards right you can cripple their anti-infantry firepower in time for your infantry, who can kill both tanks and infantry, to arrive on the battlefield.
This does not work out the way that you think it will. I'm not even worried about Russes. I'm worried about all the stuff out of LoS and all the objectives I can't physically reach because the conscripts have clogged the table.
Sadly, Baal preds suck pretty badly right now due to miscosting. And the Baal only gets 6 HB shots. Which wound conscripts on 3's. Hooray. The BA just can't get enough stuff on the table to do what you describe.
Las preds are marginal. They are 200+ pts for a T7 tanks with W11. Very glass cannony. If we were talking Wave Serpents, I'd agree.
From what I understand, BAs are on the choppier end of the Space Marine scale. They're almost kind of like Loyalist Khorne, but they don't commit nearly as hard, so they don't have anything that's on the ridiculous scale of berzerkers.
However, being a choppy-ish army does mean that they should probably be aiming to get into assault against anyone who is less choppy than they are, and this includes Guard. I've pointed out before that Space Marines should not make the mistake of thinking that they're Tau, this goes double for BAs.
Looking through their book a lot of their bonuses are rather specifically useless against guard (getting S5 against T3 models, -1LD on a unit that has a commissar, things like that), but there are some that might come in handy. Astorath supporting a charge is a strong option to look at: he can make you re-roll all failed hit rolls in the Fight phase AND get a +1 to hit in the fight phase. WS2+ re-rolling to hit Death Company with hand flamers and chainswords could potentially get some serious work done.
Another big thing about Conscripts to keep in mind: you don't have to remove them efficiently at all. You just have to remove them and survive, no matter how inefficient you were at doing it, and you win. Conscripts are the hard crunchy shell around a Guard gunline's soft, juicy center. It doesn't really matter how hard it was to crack that shell, as long as you get a decent number of units through it you're home free.
ross-128 wrote: From what I understand, BAs are on the choppier end of the Space Marine scale. They're almost kind of like Loyalist Khorne, but they don't commit nearly as hard, so they don't have anything that's on the ridiculous scale of berzerkers.
However, being a choppy-ish army does mean that they should probably be aiming to get into assault against anyone who is less choppy than they are, and this includes Guard. I've pointed out before that Space Marines should not make the mistake of thinking that they're Tau, this goes double for BAs.
Looking through their book a lot of their bonuses are rather specifically useless against guard (getting S5 against T3 models, -1LD on a unit that has a commissar, things like that), but there are some that might come in handy. Astorath supporting a charge is a strong option to look at: he can make you re-roll all failed hit rolls in the Fight phase AND get a +1 to hit in the fight phase. WS2+ re-rolling to hit Death Company with hand flamers and chainswords could potentially get some serious work done.
Another big thing about Conscripts to keep in mind: you don't have to remove them efficiently at all. You just have to remove them and survive, no matter how inefficient you were at doing it, and you win. Conscripts are the hard crunchy shell around a Guard gunline's soft, juicy center. It doesn't really matter how hard it was to crack that shell, as long as you get a decent number of units through it you're home free.
I can almost guarantee you that won't happen with the way BA are currently costed.
BA want to chop. but GW made us kinda bad at it again.
DC will always be the first thing that any horde list murders. They will never make it to assault. We have to be trickier than that, and we just keep coming up short on the tabletop when we try that.
No disrespect, but there is no "you just have to..." to deal with imperial guard for some armies in this edition.
And absolutely you ignore the las-pred. It's isolated in the backfield. Assuming it can even find LOS to an ideal target, it has to move to do so.
It MIGHT kill a tank. But the Berzerkers are the priority. Kill the rhinos. Kill the berzerkers. Charge the rhinos. Game over. You win.
Even if it's 1 las pred versus the remaining conscripts, assuming everything else is dead, the laspred kills at most 4 conscripts a turn. They can be parked on objectives and the predator will do nothing.
Now, if you're talking 4 las preds, paired with an HQ for reroll bubbles, then yeah, deal with it, but that's half the list. And you'll be staying out of LOS letting manticores do the work there.
Then take measures to get them there. Put them in Rhinos to absorb the first turn of shooting (we have established, after all, that Rhinos are quite efficient bullet sponges), or give them jump packs so they can deep-strike. Though if they deep strike you might want to add a way for them to re-roll charge distance.
Though one thing I'm also noting is I haven't been able to find the Blood Angels' chapter tactics or chapter strategem. There's a strong chance those will be useful, if for no other reason than Chapter Tactics being nearly an army-wide buff.
ross-128 wrote: Then take measures to get them there. Put them in Rhinos to absorb the first turn of shooting (we have established, after all, that Rhinos are quite efficient bullet sponges), or give them jump packs so they can deep-strike. Though if they deep strike you might want to add a way for them to re-roll charge distance.
Though one thing I'm also noting is I haven't been able to find the Blood Angels' chapter tactics or chapter strategem. There's a strong chance those will be useful, if for no other reason than Chapter Tactics being nearly an army-wide buff.
We don't have one yet. There's also a strong chance it will be awful and useless because GW.
Rhinos are good, but the IG is better. They can easily bring enough stuff to wreck all the Rhinos they want and still have 150 conscripts on the table. There's no way to game around that.
You can't finesse your way around current BA pricing. I can't beat IG even with list tailoring, which is saying something.
The deep strike assault thing sucks. I've been trying it, and gave up on it. Rerolls are too rare and the payoff is too low.
I might also point out that without sweeping advance, IG can likely just kill BA in assault through attrition.
Lascannon Predators are very good though, and in no way overpriced.
You should absolutely be targeting their anti-infantry vehicles. Accept the loss of your tanks, try to cripple their Punishers and Wyverns. That clears the way for your infantry to kit their infantry and their tanks.
Lascannon Predators are very good though, and in no way overpriced.
You should absolutely be targeting their anti-infantry vehicles. Accept the loss of your tanks, try to cripple their Punishers and Wyverns. That clears the way for your infantry to kit their infantry and their tanks.
I said marginal. They are not GOOD. They may be overpriced, I don't know yet. Compared to the Wave Serpent, they are definitely overpriced, but I'm willing to consider the Serpent busted again this edition.
Last game, he had 3 manticore, 3 wyvern out of LoS. Got any fixes for that?
BA just don't have the staying power to execute your plan. There was a reason that the Raven was a major crutch.
Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).
That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.
In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.
Marmatag wrote: No disrespect, but there is no "you just have to..." to deal with imperial guard for some armies in this edition.
And absolutely you ignore the las-pred. It's isolated in the backfield. Assuming it can even find LOS to an ideal target, it has to move to do so.
It MIGHT kill a tank. But the Berzerkers are the priority. Kill the rhinos. Kill the berzerkers. Charge the rhinos. Game over. You win.
Even if it's 1 las pred versus the remaining conscripts, assuming everything else is dead, the laspred kills at most 4 conscripts a turn. They can be parked on objectives and the predator will do nothing.
Now, if you're talking 4 las preds, paired with an HQ for reroll bubbles, then yeah, deal with it, but that's half the list. And you'll be staying out of LOS letting manticores do the work there.
I still don't get this "I can't hit the Manticore!" thing.
We've established already that, unless I bought a giant Fortress of Redemption or something, there's not a lot of places to hide.
Spoiler:
This is the table I last played on. I'm the Sisters [It's about halfway through my first turn. I've already cleaned out about two-thirds of his infantry and two of his tanks].
Huh, image isn't working right. Not sure what's up. Anyway, it's basically open with a lot of small hedgerows and clusters of trees.
The table in the background is the densest thing I've ever seen, and even then only a slight bit of maneuvering would be required to expose any given position. Also, all those building have first-floor windows.
And if we look at GW's terrain, it becomes even more impossible to actually put a tank out of Line of Sight. Hooray for first-floor windows!
It was behind a giant stadium terrain piece. Get it now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).
That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.
In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.
Most BA stuff is marine stuff. I don't see other armies having a good shot vs the IG, either to be honest. What are Eldar gonna do? Last a little longer with their serpents before losing on objectives like BA? And you get to wound their dudes on a 4+ with your 150+ lasguns!
BA can't be the real issue, because 95% of the list is just marines! But I don't see any solutions over in the vanilla marine section, either. The Baal is useless, but I can use a dakka pred. But both are too slow at removing conscripts. Thunderfire cannon? Too slow. Whirlwind? WAY too slow.
2x50 conscripts with Commissar, Commander, and two searchlights costs 401 points. Someone show me a combination, any combination, of Craftworld Eldar units (just because that's me!) that can beat that for 401 points over any number of turns, without resorting to silly things like assuming the guardsmen will never move. Let's also say a 4'x4' with standard 12" deployment zones, just to cut off that magical "infinite kite" scenario.
IIRC, searchlights are forgeworld.
Turn 0: "I don't play with, or against, Forgeworld."
Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Martel732 wrote: It was behind a giant stadium terrain piece. Get it now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ross-128 wrote: Well, I'm definitely scratching my head over why the hand flamer costs more than a full size flamer. Sure, you can fire it in melee... but it's only 1d3 S3 AP0, it shouldn't cost more than a full size flamer (or even a plasma pistol for that matter).
That said, if you're going to maintain that BA is entirely underpowered and over-pointed, then that doesn't sound like a problem with IG, that sounds like a problem with BA.
In which case, you're entirely off topic. You should be off making a "Buff BA" thread somewhere.
Most BA stuff is marine stuff. I don't see other armies having a good shot vs the IG, either to be honest. What are Eldar gonna do? Last a little longer with their serpents before losing on objectives like BA? And you get to wound their dudes on a 4+ with your 150+ lasguns!
BA can't be the real issue, because 95% of the list is just marines! But I don't see any solutions over in the vanilla marine section, either. The Baal is useless, but I can use a dakka pred. But both are too slow at removing conscripts. Thunderfire cannon? Too slow. Whirlwind? WAY too slow.
Well, may I recommend trying one of multiple approaches:
Don't put that terrain piece on the board. Put that terrain piece in the middle of the board. Use GW's recommended terrain placement rules [2 items per 2'x2' square]. Use terrain that has the approximate profile of a GW terrain piece [8"x8", lots of windows]. Select a deployment zone that doesn't put a giant wall between you and him.
If I go out, and set up the board so there's a 6" tall wall across my deployment zone with razorwire on top of it, it isn't really fair no matter how overpowered my army is or underpowered yours is.
Seriously, if there's a thing big enough to conceal 6 whole tanks from anywhere on the board, that thing is the source of the problem.
Also, Tyranids, Necrons, Harlequins, Orks, Sisters, etc. can all handle the IG gunline.
The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually, since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
The point here is that the IG is becoming vaguely reminiscent of the Eldar in that I have zero models left by turn 5. They're just a little slower is all.
Martel732 wrote: The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
Hell no.
The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.
Martel732 wrote: The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
Hell no.
The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.
Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers. Maybe I should start saying "marines", because I'm not sure what they are going to do any different. Rowboat with some asscan razors? Okay. That's good for one blob, but after all the stuff Rowboat is buffing dies, then what?
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Martel732 wrote: The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
Hell no.
The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.
Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.
There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.
3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.
I'm still really surprised that this is the problem list. I was expecting something like 12 Mortar Squads, 100 Conscripts, 50 Guardsmen with Lascannons, and a Vendetta to be the real "problem" list.
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
We covered this.
We did. Orders are broken on conscripts.
ITT:
"Orders make conscripts OP."
"Yeah they do."
"But guys, Orders make conscripts OP!!"
"Yes, thank you, I agree."
"BUT CONSCRIPTS ARE OP WITH ORDERS GUYS!"!"!"
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Martel732 wrote: The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
Hell no.
The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.
Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.
There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.
3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.
Marines will be missing a lot more units than that. The list had a lot more stuff, too. It's all part of IG having several undercosted options that work very well together. There was a Vendetta involved as well, which was catastrophic for my armor count.
Martel732 wrote: Sadly, I'm concerned they are still broken without orders just from a table control perspective.
Cheaper morale-immune models in the game exist, and therefore have better board control than conscripts. Fix them first.
They're on the list, too, for sure. I'm guessing those lists don't have the back up that the IG conscripts, do though. Ask the GK how well having one and only one busted unit works out. I guess it was working with Ravens for two months, but that was a weird, weird phenomenon. I think T3 5+ is just undercosted across the board. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's looking that way.
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Martel732 wrote: The other three tanks were behind something else. More terrain is better, right? Right? That's what I keep hearing. It was deemed an "advantage" for me, actually since it was a LoS blocker and he was a shooty list. I didn't know he had 6 ignore LoS tanks.
Hell no.
The army is balanced around the idea that you're using GW's terrain with GW's recommended terrain placement. If you have more or less terrain, and it has profiles like a castle wall, then balance issues may arise.
Even if I had had LoS, I can't kill 6 tanks before my entire list is crippled. BA just don't have the numbers.
There are 6 tanks. Cripple 3 of them. Make the 3 you cripple Wyverns.
3 Manticores can neutralize 1 Predator. Accept that loss. Cripple two Manticores, bring in your shock troops, and, since what's left of your tanks has done their job use the tanks to assault the Conscripts to pin them down while your Vanguards get into position to charge.
Marines will be missing a lot more units than that. The list had a lot more stuff, too. It's all part of IG having several undercosted options that work very well together. There was a Vendetta involved as well, which was catastrophic for my armor count.
So if the problem is 'other units', why worry about conscripts?
It's arguably more unfluffy to see a billion minimum suicide scion squads, or a billion Vendettas, or a billion Tauroxes.
Hello, Guardsmen have been 'that one army that has conscripts' for longer than it was 'that one army that has good tanks!'
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: They're on the list, too, for sure. I'm guessing those lists don't have the back up that the IG conscripts, do though. Ask the GK how well having one and only one busted unit works out. I guess it was working with Ravens for two months, but that was a weird, weird phenomenon.
Then change the backup. Huge blocks (or screens, or walls, depending on playstyle) of conscripts is one of the most iconic images in 40k fluff. Don't make guard the 'scion-spam army' by nerfing conscripts. I'd rather guard be a 'conscript-spam' army by nerfing scions.
Even if it's the same monobuild yadda yadda, at least it's fluffy. Ish.
Because the conscripts play their role in the whole thing. The other units become a little less scary if the conscripts are less effective, just as the conscripts would be less scary in a list full of marginal or overcosted support.
Iconic images don't mean much to me, mostly game play.
Unless we take away their guns entirely, I think 3 pts is too cheap for T3 5+ models in 8th. That's a 7th ed pricing, imo.
Martel732 wrote: Because the conscripts play their role in the whole thing. The other units become a little less scary if the conscripts are less effective, just as the conscripts would be less scary in a list full of marginal or overcosted support.
Right... but conscripts are iconic. Don't nerf a unit that's been around since 2nd and is the core of an army's identity because you can't/won't nerf a 6th Edition abomination that was invented purely to make the hydra into a dual kit.
And I play the game for iconic images. The fluff is why I play. The game play is far too not-great to keep me playing on its merits alone.
Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
Recosted to what? 4PPM? And guardsmen to 5? And Veterans to 7? And Scions to 12?
Or should conscripts be bumped to 4PPM and just eat dicks since they're worse than guardsmen who are also 4PPM.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.
That's why I don't like Maelstrom of War. I like being able to sit in my corner and come out at the end to capture the points.
Conscripts are also mostly useless if your opponent isn't relying on close-quarters combat to destroy your tanks.
If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.
I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.
"Conscripts are also mostly useless if your opponent isn't relying on close-quarters combat to destroy your tanks."
Not at all. Think more closely about how the battle evolves.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?
Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Yes. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, by the IG players in the thread.
Orders are the problem. Not the conscripts staying power. Not their squad size. Not their range. Not their ability to withdraw from CC.
It's FRFSRF, Fix Bayonets!, and the order that lets you shoot after withdrawing from CC that are the primary problem. Conscripts are fairly priced, fluffy, and useful without being a huge issue mathmatically if you don't include orders.
The only other problem people run into is having to deal with conscripts when their list isn't set up to actually handle hords. But at that point any horde army would be an issue. Not just conscripts.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?
Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."
4 ppm is still incredibly cheap for a model with a 5+ save that gets wounded on a 3+ by nearly every anti-infantry weapon in the game.
If you are using a tank regiment or lack commissars, then maybe don't bring conscripts. Just like I don't bring assault terminators without a land raider or stormraven.
Xenomancers wrote: Do you conscript defenders not understand that a 50 man blob of conscripts is serious anti infantry firepower?
The math has been done over - being able to double the firepower of a 50 man unit with lasguns for the cost of a platoon commander is not reasonable. ESP not when that's 3 points per model and they have 5+ saves.
Yes. It has been pointed out, repeatedly, by the IG players in the thread.
Orders are the problem. Not the conscripts staying power. Not their squad size. Not their range. Not their ability to withdraw from CC.
It's FRFSRF, Fix Bayonets!, and the order that lets you shoot after withdrawing from CC that are the primary problem. Conscripts are fairly priced, fluffy, and useful without being a huge issue mathmatically if you don't include orders.
The only other problem people run into is having to deal with conscripts when their list isn't set up to actually handle hords. But at that point any horde army would be an issue. Not just conscripts.
Actually I think those other things are problems as well. 3 ppm is incredibly cheap. I don't think they are fairly priced at all the more games I play.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
And if you don't use orders (like me, because I'm a tank regiment) or Commissars (like my buddy, because he's a catachan regiment) you just get shafted?
Neat. Glad to see that "all situations" means "the situations Martel determines matter."
4 ppm is still incredibly cheap for a model with a 5+ save that gets wounded on a 3+ by nearly every anti-infantry weapon in the game.
If you are using a tank regiment or lack commissars, then maybe don't bring conscripts. Just like I don't bring assault terminators without a land raider or stormraven.
4PPM makes conscripts strictly worse than a competing choice. That's not balance.
Also, I'm glad to see we're at the stage where you tell other people how their army should be built. I'm super glad the 'balance-doesn't-remove-options' crowd is over here removing options from tank companies and Catachans.
Actually I think those other things are problems as well. 3 ppm is incredibly cheap. I don't think they are fairly priced at all the more games I play.
So propose a fair price. Considering a Space Marine is 13 points, let's do some super rough estimating.
-2 BS: -2 points -2 WS: -2 points -1 T: -1 Pt -1 S: -1 Pt -2 Sv: -2 pt No special rules at all: -1pt -4 LD: -1pt No pistol: -1pt No krak grenades: -1pt
Let's start the bidding at 1ppm and go up from there, and that's if you think Combat Squads and ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics are worth 1PPM combined!
Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
I don't think tac marines are worth 13 ppm in practice. Tac marines have never been worth what the game charges for them. Given that they almost always die before they can enter assault, all their assault based stats are, in practice, worth nothing. It's the curse of the generalist in 40K.
Martel732 wrote: Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.
Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
Can everyone maybe add a tag to every post that says, "I think conscripts shouldn't take orders" or "I think conscripts are fine as is?"
Because it's really hard to discuss this topic with a bunch of random forum posters without knowing if we're already fundamentally in agreement on the core problem or not.
Martel732 wrote: If necessary. Low-end T3 models might all have to rise in cost because of the new wounding chart and AP system. That is in fact a possibility.
4 ppm conscripts are an interesting idea, since we could charge the same as guardsmen, but they make it back in order efficiency and leadership efficiency despite having worse stats.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, busted units have to go, even if they are busted in a vacuum. Wave serpents don't carry the scariest stuff in the game, but I think they are still busted.
So... if I am understanding you right, you're saying that units that are very good in certain situations (And therefore busted in those situations) deserve to be nerfed into uselessness? Or removed from the game?
No. Just recosted. And Wave Serpents and conscripts are good in EVERY situation. Don't kid yourself. A situational unit is something like fire dragons.
By have to go, I mean have to become no longer busted. That's all. For example, in 7th ed, scatterbikes were fair at 37 pts. But they cost 27 pts. Busted.
Are conscripts very useful in Maelstrom of War? I missed the memo, I think.
I haven't beat IG yet in Maelstrom yet due to tabling, so I'd say yes. The conscripts automatically score whatever objective they are close to, prevent me from EVER scoring it. Eventually, I draw things on their side of the table and then my whole list dies.
You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right?
The tabling phenomenon is not a problem with the IG. It's a problem with the game, and every army in it, and if a push to reduce conscript's toughness on the grounds that they're a mild inconvenience when I'm trying to assault all the IG tanks on turn 1 or 2 to end the game without a fight succeeds, that's only going to be making the tabling phenomenon worse.
The reason tabling is so common is manyfold:
1: Powerful units have access to deepstrike, making movement, range, and position basically a pointless exercise. [Stormtroopers, Genestealers, sometimes Orks, etc.]
2: Transported units are extremely fast, making positioning a pointless exercise. [Dominions, Harlequins]
3: Melee units are insanely destructive, hard to kill, fast, and basically end the game when the reach the enemy. [Genestealers, Berzerkers, Hormagaunts, sometimes Orks]
4: Shooting units are increased in power to compensate, and because melee units negate shooting units the moment they touch them, shooting lists focus on maximizing firepower with a carefully calculated minimum amount of resilience, [IG, Tau, Sisters]
5: Shooting and Melee units can move into position before firing and before charging, ensuring aggression and first-turn will grant an extreme advantage.
When two melee lists come up against each other, they rush to meet each other then toss dice until someone runs out of guys,
When a shooting list fights a melee list, the shooting list pulls out all the breaks and tries to blow up the entirely of the melee list before it reaches combat. The reliability with which they can do this determines the viability of shooting and melee.
When two shooting lists come up against each other, first move wins, because they can kill so many things in the first turn that the second player doesn't have enough left to contest the game.
If you're getting tabled on turn 3 by the Guard, I honestly have no idea how you can tolerate Tyranids, Necrons, Sisters, and Orks.
Basically, units are too fast and too killy. Part of the "too killy" is because they're fast, being close confers advantages, and they get to move before shooting.
When I joked a while back I'd trade conscripts for moving the Move phase to the end of the turn, I'm half serious.
Martel732 wrote: Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.
Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right? "
What? Doesn't even matter, because conscripts can prevent you from getting to within 3" of the objective by EXISTING.
Martel732 wrote: Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.
Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.
And all of those things should be nerfed because people build their armies well, even if the units in a vacuum are garbage? Even though those things will become even worse when fielded alone, such as when a Catachan player brings no commissars or a Heavy Weapons Company player brings no infantry squads?
Martel732 wrote: Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.
Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "You are aware that Space Marines now out score any number of enemy models, right? "
What? Doesn't even matter, because conscripts can prevent you from getting to within 3" of the objective by EXISTING.
You know it is possible in Maelstrom to draw a card that isn't the one that 50 conscripts are standing on, right? And that sometimes you draw a card that you simply cannot score (such as destroy a building) and you have to bite it and move on to scoring on objectives you can get, right?
Or are you saying that every single objective you draw, even the Kill a Tank one, is completely and utterly unavailable simply because conscripts exist?
Martel732 wrote: Well, I'm fine with raising the cost on all IG infantry and see how that goes. I was tossing out 4ppm conscripts as a compromise position. Especially since I think they are clearly worth 4ppm.
It's not clear to IG players, I understand. I guess we'll call those Tau-blinders. Or maybe Eldar-blinders. Unless you think 27 point scatbikes were fine, too?
No, I don't think conscripts are the problem.
Again, for the sixth or seventh time in various threads, I agree IG are OP. I disagree that the problem is conscripts.
I think conscripts are part of a larger problem. Take unkillable, unbreakable blobs and add in cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons, cheap tanks that ignore LoS, and cheap plasma and you have a recipe for marine tabling in most games.
And all of those things should be nerfed because people build their armies well, even if the units in a vacuum are garbage? Even though those things will become even worse when fielded alone, such as when a Catachan player brings no commissars or a Heavy Weapons Company player brings no infantry squads?
Probably not all of them. Just the worst transgressors. You and I disagree on this point. That's all.
