My initial take was that she was a 50 point auto-include and an 80+ never bother, and I'm not really seeing why I'd change my mind on that - although things like crossfire and other synergies might slightly push those higher. I still think she's about as expensive as she could be to not be instantly laughed out of the room.
I agree the price point feels a bit steep based on what has been previewed so far (puts her in the same cost bracket as a Kelermorph or Magus), but depending on what sort of synergies she enables it may make it more reasonable. Most of our characters have aura abilities, so if she did something to improve explosive weapons that could give her some extra utility beyond big game damage. Alternatively, maybe she will make certain explosive-based stratagems cheaper/free akin to how the Sanctus can currently use Perfect Ambush for no cost. As of right now, we have, Extra Explosives, Rigged to Blow, Drive by Demolitions, and Detonate Concealed Explosives for explosive themed strats. The last one is somewhat replaced with the Reductus' main ranged weapon, but I could see the others transferring over.
Admittedly, I am somewhat resigned to the fact that our characters are probably going to be pricier than those of other armies simply because of Unquestioning Loyalty (regardless of what form it takes). The only other army that can bring anywhere near the amount of character protection is the T'au, but theirs is still comparatively restricted to just a couple units.
Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.
I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.
This means she is competing with the:
Sanctus
Kellermorph
Biophagus
Locus
Clamavus
Nexos
Abberants
Metamrophs
Purestrains
So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.
I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.
If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.
There is of course the option to take another detachment, however this not only eats into previously precious CP, it also unlocks the option to take a second copy of a magus which is just too good to turn down ATM.
They also could have nuked everything currently good and in the new book 80 points makes her a steal compared to the others, but I'd rather not think that way ha ha.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: Is she so much vorse vs t7 dreadoughts?
2d3 shots d3
vs
1d3 shots d1d6
5 point difference
She has better BS and double the shots, worse range and consistent but low damage (2 damage verse dreadnoughts) while the HML will hit for 1 damage 33% of the time and 2 damage 16% or 3+ damage 50% of the time. So I'd give her the win on overall damage verse the dreads, however she can't really deal with basic infantry very well while the RR has 6 s4 shots.
However one of the major differences is the slot she will likely occupy and the fact that ridge runner can be taken in units of 3. This means they benefit more efficiently from buffs and you also use your slot to better effect.
She is growing on me quite a bit however, and although I think her price point is steep given the info we have now I am keeping an open mind about her and hoping there is in fact much more to the puzzle.
Tangentially related to pricing but the new Custodes character is aggressively priced, compared to both the Saboteur and our current HQ prices. He seems custom built in particular to completely mop the floor with the Patriarch: 25 points cheaper, a weapon perfectly tooled to kill a T6 Character, drastically reducing the Patriarch's own damage output by way of a crazy good melee defensive buff, and of course taking the cake with a Leadership score that says "Haha, no." to Mind Control and Mental Onslaught.
Madjob wrote: Tangentially related to pricing but the new Custodes character is aggressively priced, compared to both the Saboteur and our current HQ prices. He seems custom built in particular to completely mop the floor with the Patriarch: 25 points cheaper, a weapon perfectly tooled to kill a T6 Character, drastically reducing the Patriarch's own damage output by way of a crazy good melee defensive buff, and of course taking the cake with a Leadership score that says "Haha, no." to Mind Control and Mental Onslaught.
I am not expecting those psychic powers to remain the same to where they are now anyway, but yea it's wild to see that dudes cost compared to a T3 4 wound GEQ rival in the same box. Patriarch should hopefully hit like a freight train in the new book.
GW has real problems with pointing characters. They seem to make elite characters too cheap while chaf characters are on the pricey side. Except for guard that is, I have a massive Catachan army using 2nd edition sculpts and it always amazes me comparing a company commander with the relic sword thats +1S -4 d3 damage at 40 points or the primaris psycher at 50 points compared to the magus or primus.
They already kneecapped the army into forcing players to take only one of each dude, they really need to get the points right this time around.
I am guessing Neophytes are 6 ppm and acolytes probably moving to 9ppm considering they rival an ork boy for sure now.
Red Corsair wrote: Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.
I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.
This means she is competing with the:
Sanctus Kellermorph Biophagus Locus Clamavus Nexos Abberants Metamorphs Purestrains
So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.
To be fair, of these she is mainly competing with the (Sniper) Sanctus and Kellermorph as a special weapon character in the "about a squad of Neophytes" point bracket that gets dropped in to deal with specific targets. Compared to those characters she at least fulfills an interesting niche of preferring to go after large, tough targets instead of (psyker) characters and infantry. Battalions are also fairly generous with Elite slots compared to the other battlefield roles, so points are probably going to be a bigger limiter than slot availability.
I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.
Agreed. I'm fairly hopeful the new book will, given that the 9th edition Death Guard got such a rule for their glut of elite support characters and Necrons and Thousand Sons have something similar for their smaller utility HQ units.
It will be interesting to see if the datasheet in the box has a "Cult Agent" keyword or similar.
If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.
I could see her being a good second HQ for a mech list (though like you I expect her to be an elite). Right now I generally take a Primus for the role after an Alphus, but he doesn't really work well with the high mobility of such lists since he can't do anything useful unless he is on foot. With the remote explosives, a Reductus would be perfectly happy riding around in a Goliath Truck, bombing everything in sight, with an Acolyte bodyguard to lend hand flamers and maybe a few explosives of their own (maybe even add a Demolition Cache for extra explosive fun).
Red Corsair wrote: Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.
I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.
This means she is competing with the:
Sanctus
Kellermorph
Biophagus
Locus
Clamavus
Nexos
Abberants
Metamrophs
Purestrains
So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.
I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.
If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.
There is of course the option to take another detachment, however this not only eats into previously precious CP, it also unlocks the option to take a second copy of a magus which is just too good to turn down ATM.
They also could have nuked everything currently good and in the new book 80 points makes her a steal compared to the others, but I'd rather not think that way ha ha.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: Is she so much vorse vs t7 dreadoughts?
2d3 shots d3
vs
1d3 shots d1d6
5 point difference
She has better BS and double the shots, worse range and consistent but low damage (2 damage verse dreadnoughts) while the HML will hit for 1 damage 33% of the time and 2 damage 16% or 3+ damage 50% of the time. So I'd give her the win on overall damage verse the dreads, however she can't really deal with basic infantry very well while the RR has 6 s4 shots.
However one of the major differences is the slot she will likely occupy and the fact that ridge runner can be taken in units of 3. This means they benefit more efficiently from buffs and you also use your slot to better effect.
She is growing on me quite a bit however, and although I think her price point is steep given the info we have now I am keeping an open mind about her and hoping there is in fact much more to the puzzle.
She’s even better if you assume she has the crossfire rule. 2d3 shots hitting on twos wounding on twos against most light vehicles (including dreadknights) for three damage a pop is straight up good.
If the plant explosives wasn't an action she would be far more interesting. Now you loose a round of shooting.
I might have missed it, but I would assume the shooting is ignoring LoS (igniting explosives left behind before), if that is true it makes her much more interesting .
But its not ignoring. You are dictating the battlefield. Basically only tyranids get to move twice so you are forcing your opponent to move assets to a point you want them too. Edging 2 to 4 inches turn 1 can save you turn 5
If you dont put it on an objective your wasting your time. Read the rule more clearly, you can walk right over it so long as you don't end your movement within 3"
Taking three is not only 240 points for those few mortals but it's also a 3 detachment requirement meaning your burning all your CP and taxing the crap out of yourself to get them.
Not sure why you think a good opponent would worry so much about the mine. If shes mining a forward objective, which is the mines best use, then she's basically ringing the dinner bell since GSC really bleeds assassination points.
The mine could be written slightly different from the article, but thats really unlikely. As of now it's her worst feature, and I really dislike the idea of needing CP to fix that mechanic when shes 80 points to start.
I think we need the full picture for sure, but right now I think she makes a solid ranged attack you can add into a truck with some mining laser neophytes.
Hey I'm all aboard truck neophyte play. Assault means you get to advance that sucker up the board.
If they keep the gene sect ability for matched play I would be surprised. But multiple detachments of primuses means multiple perfect ambushes. I think we will be seeing double battalion play in the near future.
I think it's almost a given the gene sect ability remains, it's not like they haven't created enough characters for the army to field the crap out of without resorting to doubles. There are 13 characters lol.
Low res screenshots from shadow throne leaked. One interesting thing: neophytes have both frag grenades AND blasting charges. Frag grenades are standard; blasting charges are D3 Blast S5 ap-1.
canonized wrote: Low res screenshots from shadow throne leaked. One interesting thing: neophytes have both frag grenades AND blasting charges. Frag grenades are standard; blasting charges are D3 Blast S5 ap-1.
Saboteur is T3 4W 5+ as expected, BS2+ native. Interestingly she carries a Demolition charge too, one use as before. Cult Ambush is renamed Conceal, by all appearances it is identical to old Cult Ambush. Setting explosives resolves at the end of the movement phase. No crossfire keyword.
Patriarch is losing a point of strength, gaining a wound (and a point of BS??) and invuln going up to 4+. Claws are D2 base, D3 on rend. Living Idol is now ignore attrition modifiers.
Primus got BS2+ and T4, bonesword is now "cult bonesword" and is S+1 D2, toxin claw lost rend but is now a bonus attack and Cult Demagogue is reroll hit rolls of 1 instead of +1 to hit.
Magus gets 2 casts, Spiritual Leader is now a 5+ FnP against MWs for Infantry and Bikers within 6"
Familiars are now a psychic test re-roll once per game.
Neophytes page is very hard to read, but Shotguns are flat S4 now, they do not have the absurdly limited mining weapon/special weapon restrictions I expected (you get 2 for every 10 men, for either, no restrictions on what you bring, so double flamers are a-OK). Seismic Cannon might be S4 AP-1 on the long range profile now? Short range is still S6 which is not what I was hoping for at all. Both profiles have lost their "rend" effect on wound rolls of 6+. Webbers are Blast, and you roll a D6 for each hit roll and if the result is higher than the highest Toughness model in the target unit it causes a mortal wound.
If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.
I have a 20 man neophyte unit converted using skitari coats to look like dusters all armed with shotguns and 2 flamers that suddenly is sounding like it will be not only fun as hell, but impactful for once lol.
As far as the leaks though, I am expecting there to be some differences from the info in the booklet from shadow throne and the eventual book. It's not uncommon for certain keywords and rules to be slightly off. The saboteur may still get crossfire for example and I am expecting the cult ambush to change in the codex, since as far as I can tell from early games with the box the booklet just says which rules they have, but doesn't give the rules meaning they are referring to the current codex.
The box was planned to release at the same time as the new codex so I would expect it to reference the 'current' (new unreleased now because of the delay) codex.
And Neophytes do have Crossfire on their sheet. So its not like they left that rule out to cut down on complexity in the box.
Madjob wrote: If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...
It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?
Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.
Madjob wrote: If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...
It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?
Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.
While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.
Madjob wrote: If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...
It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?
Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.
While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.
While still remembering that it has variable damage and a fairly high S.
It's a S8 AP-3 D1(3 v Monster or Vehicle) attack with a 24" range on a BS2+ model that is untargetable while within an Area Terrain feature unless the firing model is within 12".
I get that you seem to think it's absolute trash or whatever, but its nearest comparison is the Astra Militarum's "Master of Ordnance". MoO has way more range, but their Artillery Barrage is once per game...and still not as good as this model can be.
At BS 2+, and with the ability to lay her mine and still shoot, I think she’ll work. I’m assuming she’ll get good use out of at least 1 stratagem too. 24” range is rough but manageable. It sits firmly in the classic GSC “perfect when it comes out to play, but then is surprisingly immobile. Her range will be a better deterrent for movement than her bomb ever will be.
That’s about four dead GEQ, if targeting a unit of 11+ models.
And it’s just over one dead MEQ for a squad of 10 or less. Three and a half wounds if they’re at 11+.
Madjob wrote: If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...
It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?
Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.
While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.
While still remembering that it has variable damage and a fairly high S.
It's a S8 AP-3 D1(3 v Monster or Vehicle) attack with a 24" range on a BS2+ model that is untargetable while within an Area Terrain feature unless the firing model is within 12".
I get that you seem to think it's absolute trash or whatever, but its nearest comparison is the Astra Militarum's "Master of Ordnance". MoO has way more range, but their Artillery Barrage is once per game...and still not as good as this model can be.
Master of Ordinance is a terrible comparison. His entire shtick is being a logistics buff for backfield artillery using his reroll to hit aura. He's also 35 points lol.
dreadlybrew wrote:If the primus still only has a 5+ with no invuln hes still worthless in melee
He sorta has an invulnerable save with the current Unquestioning Loyalty rules. The current Primus doesn't hit particularly hard so it generally isn't worth risking him in melee vs using him for buffs (plus minions are expensive).
The new bonesword is similar to one of the current relic ones, so he might now have enough bite to make wading into combat worthwhile.
shamroll wrote:If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.
Lore-wise it makes sense that she doesn't have it, as none of her weapons are the sort that would force someone to keep their head down in cover (if anything, the opposite). From a purely functional standpoint it is sad, but of the effects that have been previewed the only part she really wants is the +1 to wound rolls.
Given the datasheets released so far, I am thinking that the Crossfire rule is probably going to be exclusive to the Neophyte-based units (Jackals, Neophytes, Goliath Truck, Goliath Rockgrinder, Achilles Ridgerunner) and maybe in-book Brood Brothers. I would also not be surprised if the Hivecult creed ability is re-written around the crossfire mechanic (I'm guessing their current signature stratagem may change from a blanket +1 to hit after wounding a target to instead give a unit without the crossfire keyword said keyword).
I suppose as one final thought, we know the upcoming mission pack for 2022 is going to be less friendly to vehicles than the current one. As much as I love mech, we may very well end up having to lean heavily into our infantry going into the new meta (post-book) which would also make the Reductus a bit easier to keep safe.
I wonder if the idea of the Mine for the Reductus might be more to ruin a piece of scenery for hiding in - instead of allowing a handy place to hide, it becomes a rather hazardous spot, especially if a squad and their buff character are wanting to shelter in there... If you can get it out there nice and early, it might make someone re-think dashing into the spot that they can then snipe or charge from
hangnailnz wrote:I wonder if the idea of the Mine for the Reductus might be more to ruin a piece of scenery for hiding in - instead of allowing a handy place to hide, it becomes a rather hazardous spot, especially if a squad and their buff character are wanting to shelter in there... If you can get it out there nice and early, it might make someone re-think dashing into the spot that they can then snipe or charge from
Thats a fair idea, however D3 mortals really isn't that scary. I think the best use is still probably to sap an objective, it will at least help you clear it later. But an average of 2 wounds isn't really going to deter anyone from trying to advance into terrain and grab board control IMO. At least she doesn't give up her shooting either, so it's kind of a neat bonus, maybe a strat will make it much more impactful though.
Strat_N8 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:If the primus still only has a 5+ with no invuln hes still worthless in melee
He sorta has an invulnerable save with the current Unquestioning Loyalty rules. The current Primus doesn't hit particularly hard so it generally isn't worth risking him in melee vs using him for buffs (plus minions are expensive).
The new bonesword is similar to one of the current relic ones, so he might now have enough bite to make wading into combat worthwhile.
shamroll wrote:If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.
Lore-wise it makes sense that she doesn't have it, as none of her weapons are the sort that would force someone to keep their head down in cover (if anything, the opposite). From a purely functional standpoint it is sad, but of the effects that have been previewed the only part she really wants is the +1 to wound rolls.
Given the datasheets released so far, I am thinking that the Crossfire rule is probably going to be exclusive to the Neophyte-based units (Jackals, Neophytes, Goliath Truck, Goliath Rockgrinder, Achilles Ridgerunner) and maybe in-book Brood Brothers. I would also not be surprised if the Hivecult creed ability is re-written around the crossfire mechanic (I'm guessing their current signature stratagem may change from a blanket +1 to hit after wounding a target to instead give a unit without the crossfire keyword said keyword).
I suppose as one final thought, we know the upcoming mission pack for 2022 is going to be less friendly to vehicles than the current one. As much as I love mech, we may very well end up having to lean heavily into our infantry going into the new meta (post-book) which would also make the Reductus a bit easier to keep safe.
I think it makes zero sense lore wise. IED's are exactly the type of weapon that causes folks to flatten out on their bellies for cover, not only that but they create absolute mayhem and chaos. Same thing can be said for snipers, I really hope they didn't restrict crossfire from all the neophyte characters, that would be pretty lame.
I think it makes zero sense lore wise. IED's are exactly the type of weapon that causes folks to flatten out on their bellies for cover, not only that but they create absolute mayhem and chaos. Same thing can be said for snipers, I really hope they didn't restrict crossfire from all the neophyte characters, that would be pretty lame.
My money is on the Jackal Alphus applying crossfire to anything she hits with her sniper.
Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?
Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?
That is how I read it! And thank god - it means that a big squad of 20 can actually put out some serious firepower .
Also, I'm shocked no one is talking about Webbers. Here's some numbers:
Flamer vs New Webber vs T3 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 3+) : 1.94 wounds | 1.56 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.39 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 4+) : 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound
Flamer vs New Webber vs T4 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 4+) : 1.46 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.88 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.29 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 5+) : 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds
Flamer vs New Webber vs T5 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 5+) : 0.97 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.39 wounds | 0.19 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 6) : 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds
So, generally speaking, the Webber is better than the Flamer vs targets with 3+ and 2+ saves, and the Flamer is better vs those with a 4+ or worse save. However, if you set up a Crossfire(TM), the Flamer is going to be better vs 3+ saves (though still worse vs 2+ saves).
Ultimately, it seems like a real matchup-specific case, which is where I love to see options be. For my meta, with a ton of Marines and many Custodes, the Webber seems like a go-to for me.
Do I get this right: neophytes got more/double the amount of weapon options at 20 models? So you can field 4 mining lasers and 4 grenade launchers in one squad?
That is how I read it! And thank god - it means that a big squad of 20 can actually put out some serious firepower .
Also, I'm shocked no one is talking about Webbers. Here's some numbers:
Flamer vs New Webber vs T3 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 3+) : 1.94 wounds | 1.56 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.39 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 4+) : 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound | 1 wound
Flamer vs New Webber vs T4 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 4+) : 1.46 wounds | 1.17 wounds | 0.88 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.29 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 5+) : 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds | 0.67 wounds
Flamer vs New Webber vs T5 | 6+ save | 5+ save | 4+ save | 3+ save | 2+ save:
- Flamer (3.5 shots on average, wounds on 5+) : 0.97 wounds | 0.78 wounds | 0.58 wounds | 0.39 wounds | 0.19 wounds
- New Webber (2 shots on average, mortal wounds on 6) : 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds | 0.33 wounds
So, generally speaking, the Webber is better than the Flamer vs targets with 3+ and 2+ saves, and the Flamer is better vs those with a 4+ or worse save. However, if you set up a Crossfire(TM), the Flamer is going to be better vs 3+ saves (though still worse vs 2+ saves).
Ultimately, it seems like a real matchup-specific case, which is where I love to see options be. For my meta, with a ton of Marines and many Custodes, the Webber seems like a go-to for me.
Seems like it's better against most targets except GEQ.
It rolls to wound verse strength not toughness I believe. Meaning it is better verse things like wracks, bikes, gravis, ork boyz etc.
I like them, however it's also worth mentioning that they don't spike like flamers do when inside exposed range, since I don't believe it is written as a wound roll although I may be mistaken on that as the webber profile may be wrong.
I built 8 webbers a couple years ago with some extra neophytes I had because I like them for what they were before. I think shotguns go with flamers but webbers make for solid options on dug in campers if the points are fair.
I am more excited about shotguns to be honest, before they were just cool and flat worse then autoguns. Now, a unit gaining exposed will wound GEQ on 2's which is honestly pretty crazy and very helpful verse overwatch armies like Tau since it's efficient to down fire warriors and drones outside combat.
I played a 1k game last night just to play around with the new mechanic and saboteur against my brothers orks. It was fairly friendly lists mind you in the spirit of experimentation.
My list was a Bladed Cog patrol
Spoiler:
Icon Bearer
saboteur
kellermorph
10 Neophytes 2ML 2GL in a Goliath
10 Neophytes 2ML 2GL in a Goliath
20 Neophytes with shotguns 2 flamers Icon
8 Jackals 2 ML wolfquads
2 Ridgerunner HML
He took a Blood Axe Battalion
Spoiler:
Warboss
Warphead
Mechboy
10 boys
10 boyz
10 boys
Single Canon
Single Canon
Kustom BB
Snazwagon
Scrapjet
Deffdread
Deffdread
We both agreed to play on a standard 2k board and mission and start with 10 CP since we normally play that level but just wanted to play a shorter game while still being able to test our toys, so keep that in mind, although in hindsight neither of us got much mileage beyond the first 5-6 we spent anyway.
I was using the crossfire and exposed rules with the assumption it worked on Neophytes, RR's and Jackals but nothing else. I didn't bother using blips but I did use standard stratagems from our book. I used devoted crew, lying in wait and a perfect ambush. I was on the fence on using those, however we were discussing how over priced things in the army currently are and I wasn't using the 15pt upgrade or spoiled stratagems from the community page and I actually think those would grant similar boosts to the ones I got.
I can go into more detail if folks want, but the brief run down is that turn 2 I actually felt bad because I was hamming his army so hard, however by the end of the game I was essentially tabled but way up on points.
The shotgun unit is bananas. I sprang them up using lying in wait and killed 2 10 man ork boy units fairly easily, this unit also provided exposure to the defdreads and 3rd boy unit which the jackals handled. The many mining lasers killed both dreads and splatted the warphead and mechboy. It took quite a bit of effort for the orks to kill the jackals and shotgun unit, however he finally managed to kill those and the trucks and then the house of cards came down pretty easily. The army was so mobile though and even proved to be fairly durable turn 1, but once the trucks and buggies are already softened up, man they all just go down pretty quick ha ha.
The jackals all having shotguns makes that unit so damned fun too, they easily get into close range and really benefit from the strength boost although funnily enough, playing orks that are recently T5 meant the shotgun bonus wasn't quite as good as it would be verse a variety of other armies.
Kellermorph killed about 5 boyz, then later the warboss failed a 4" charge and his ear we go, giving him a chance to shoot him, only for me to realize how hopeless it was, the boss was -1 to wound and damage ha ha, meaning it despite shooting him 12 times I didn't even damage him and he finally made it in and ripped him in half.
The saboteur was also really disappointing. I rolled low on her number of shots and her hits and wounds and she really didn't do much. She did eventually finish a dread off but she didn't really recoup her cost at all, honestly she needs another go, however the mine was totally irrelevant, I never even deployed it. I always wanted to move up with the troops and chasing targets and leaving her on a back field objective just seemed like an 80 point wast when a small unit of jackals or acolytes can do that for less and stay hidden as well. I didn't ambush her because I didn't like missing out on her fire power turn 1 and there wasn't anywhere I could place her due to good screening unless I used lying in wait, which I needed for the shotgun unit. Her gun blows straight through ramshackle, same with all the ML's lol, but her gun would have been great on the warboss on turn 3 until we realized it was only 1 damage. That is very frustrating.
Banner dude is still the best HQ for the points in lower point games, his FNP aura helped make the bikes inefficient from all the 2 damage buggy weapons that already needed 6's to hit them lol.
The cross fire tokens and exposed really made that 20 man shotgun unit and the bikers bananas at mowing down infantry. To the point where I almost am wondering if they are just going to be better then acolytes in every way this edition. Points are going to make a huge impact however being able to ambush and shoot 2 s4 attacks hitting on 3's that have +1 to wound just feels like you get to remove the entire issue with making it into assault for similar damage. The mining weapons and T4 can make a difference obviously and my early gut feeling tells me your going to want to ambush Neophytes, but drive acolytes around into charge range with trucks.
It's pretty exciting though and I am excited that the Neophytes and Jackals are a legitimate threat now.
Red Corsair wrote: To the point where I almost am wondering if they are just going to be better then acolytes in every way this edition.
I think how large a gap may be had between the two will depend on what they do with the Mining Tools and what melee buffs we keep. I'm expecting Cutters and Saws to more or less stay as-is, but the Rock Drill will probably get changed to do extra damage against big targets (the Termite's drill used to share the same escalating mortal wound gimmick, but now it is extra damage vs vehicles/monsters). For what it is worth though, I don't foresee Acolytes being completely replaced by Neophytes, as at their core Acolytes bring more anti-armor attacks at similar squad sizes and can be taken in smaller (cheaper) units for secondary objectives. It may be overly optimistic, but I'm hoping that mixes of the two will be attractive again (along with the other melee specialists).
Thanks for the battle report as well. Makes me excited to see how things will turn out
I think points are going to be a big factor obviously.
I love acolytes and will be using mine, but I think my early prediction is that neophytes will be the core, which makes sense.
I can't see a neophyte being any more then the 6ppm they are now, but I do see acolytes going to at least 9ppm, possibly 10 with the toughness bump and change to claws.
I am just really happy shotguns are s4 base now, makes jackals actually decent as well!
So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?
hangnailnz wrote: So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?
The most reliable of the rumors had us just getting the Reductus Saboteur with the book, but they could always throw out a new kit via Kill Team like they did for Sisters. For what it is worth, getting our points to somewhere saner and some rules revisions may effectively give us some "new" units through making some of the older options viable again.
My own dream list of new units would be something like a new jetpack unit for Fast Attack (similar to the Orlok prospects, either Acolyte or Neophyte based), a couple new options for Heavy Support (possibly an Aberrant "devestator squad" analog, "artillery" mining weapon platforms, and/or a large mining dozer-based "tough" vehicle), and an industrial transport flier that could move larger squads or maybe even a goliath-sized vehicle.
hangnailnz wrote: So are there any hints at all that there might be new units in the Codex? I am feeling a bit ripped off as I read about the second wave of Ork releases, and the constant roll out of new space marine models, that we get a new Codex with 1 new model...But maybe we can use the models we have to make new units?? This may just be me feeling hopeful - but would it kill them to give us a Worker Rabble unit, or a Mining Engineer team, or some Prospector Scouts, or bomb-vest Martyrs - something fluffy and different to what we have now?
We did have our second wave of releases sooner than Admech, whose first wave came before ours, and still faster than basically any new, non-stormcast army range in AoS. As far as new mini ranges go we've had a lot of support.
Supposedly more rule previews this week though, so we will see. Honestly my #1 specific ask is that we get some form of forward deploy. So much of this game is dictated by establishing board control t1 or being able to set up a t2 counter-control. The latter tends to be favored by more durable armies which we definitely are not, and we have a whopping 2 units that can push into midfield just from deployment zone on t1 and they are not a huge task for your opponent to clear. If we have a way to drop a couple 20 man neophyte squads with icons into the midfield I think that would be effective enough to keep our T2 ambush drops able to come in close to where we need them.
I want the cost of utility characters to drop significantly. Kellermorph may have seemed scary at 60 points 4 years ago, buts he's hot trash now at 80. He struggles to kill 4 ork boyz now lol.
Red Corsair wrote: I want the cost of utility characters to drop significantly. Kellermorph may have seemed scary at 60 points 4 years ago, buts he's hot trash now at 80. He struggles to kill 4 ork boyz now lol.
i mean sure but he's also bad at killing tanks, at a certain point you do have to kind of wonder if attacking slow high-T infantry is really the thing you want to point a deep strike assassination unit at.
Ol' helen is probably a wee bit overcosted atm tho for sure. could use a 10pt discount or 5pt with the relic gun.
Is quite different actually. Here are the 2 main downsides:
#1 - You cannot take units without <Regiment>. For example, you cannot take Valkyries (despite the article saying you can), as they are Aeronautica Imperialis, and not <Regiment>. Also, no Bullgryn or Primaris Psykers. There are more things you can't take, but those are some stand-outs.
#2 - You cannot take more than 25% of your army; so 500pts in a standard competitive game. That's not nothing, but it definitely limits your options.
Also note, this article somewhat implies that you cannot take Brood Brothers without taking them as a Brood Brother detachment. Currently the codex has Brood Brother units in the codex itself, but ALSO gives you the option of taking Astra Militarum units with a Brood Brother regiment tag. So, for example, you can take a Leman Russ from the Astra Militarum codex, and replace <Regiment> with Brood Brother, OR you could take a Cult Leman Russ from the Genestealer Cult codex itself. Both would be largely identical, but the Astra Militarum one would still have the Imperium keyword, while the Genestealer Cult one would have the Cult Ambush ability and the Tyranid keyword. This new rule might make it that the ONLY way to take it is the Astra Militarum path, which means you HAVE to take it as a detachment - making these units effectively cost CP to run when they didn't previously.
I always find these rules very confusing. And in our current codex the preview did not make a lot of sence (if I remember correctly. I am currently om some pain medication that makes me a bit woozy. It's all good though.) What I wonder is this : Is there and outside chance that current brood brothers units are except for the rule. Or is there a chance we can include Astra Militarum in the GSC detachment without loosing CP.
Things like the Cult Leman Russ have been straight up removed from the website, so assume they're just gone and they've replaced it with this rule that punishes you for using them.
I would not fuzz about it (yet). Before every codex release they pull all units from the website (some at a time) to repackage them. They get the new box font treatment. And sometimes go up in price.
I also do not belive they have been there for a while. Sentinels downright was just buy IG sentinels.
Perhaps we will be allowed to take the mother f-ing gattling leman russ?
By my count, if the Brood Brother units are removed from the Codex, we will have 6 HQ choices, 10 elites, 2 each of troops and fast attack, and one HS and dedicated transport. Which means that the tax on a Brigade is 3 Rockgrinders for a start...
I am now really hoping some of our ideas for alternative unit types will comes true - Neophyte mining weapon teams for heavies?
Rock Cutters are damage 3. Drills are AP-4, same as the other two melee mining weapons. Saw statlines are unchanged.
Rending claws are AP-2 base. Acolyte and Metamorph leader boneswords are the same as the Primus', so damage 2 and S+1.
Demolition charges are damage 2.
Plain Goliath Trucks are still T6 but have Ld8 and a 3+ save.
Blasting charge statlines have already been noted, but interestingly Acolytes can carry them too (the example model given in the instructions is carrying the hard-case of cylinder charges, while the tnt-esque charge is designated as demolition charge).
Rock Cutters are damage 3. Drills are AP-4, same as the other two melee mining weapons. Saw statlines are unchanged.
Rending claws are AP-2 base. Acolyte and Metamorph leader boneswords are the same as the Primus', so damage 2 and S+1.
Demolition charges are damage 2.
Plain Goliath Trucks are still T6 but have Ld8 and a 3+ save.
Blasting charge statlines have already been noted, but interestingly Acolytes can carry them too (the example model given in the instructions is carrying the hard-case of cylinder charges, while the tnt-esque charge is designated as demolition charge).
I would completely disregard the Cutter and Drill. They are weapons which currently operate through their special rules which doesn't translate into a pure stateline for the instruction manual.
Without seeing what happens to those rules the stateline is meaningless.
Red Corsair wrote: I want the cost of utility characters to drop significantly. Kellermorph may have seemed scary at 60 points 4 years ago, buts he's hot trash now at 80. He struggles to kill 4 ork boyz now lol.
i mean sure but he's also bad at killing tanks, at a certain point you do have to kind of wonder if attacking slow high-T infantry is really the thing you want to point a deep strike assassination unit at.
Ol' helen is probably a wee bit overcosted atm tho for sure. could use a 10pt discount or 5pt with the relic gun.
Orks are high toughness but no save and single wound, and he's a garbage assassin too. With all the higher toughness, invulns, ignore damage and reductions on characters the only things left to clip are 25-45 pt elite slot trash characters, which again he loses on.
The snipers should be the main character hunters IMO, kellermorph should wreck medium and light infantry or finish off a utility character. BTW I used him against an ork boss on foot lmao, 6's required to wound the thing! I mean, even weird boyz and meks are t5 now lol. The mek boy is 25 points lmao.
Rock Cutters are damage 3. Drills are AP-4, same as the other two melee mining weapons. Saw statlines are unchanged.
Rending claws are AP-2 base. Acolyte and Metamorph leader boneswords are the same as the Primus', so damage 2 and S+1.
Demolition charges are damage 2.
Plain Goliath Trucks are still T6 but have Ld8 and a 3+ save.
Blasting charge statlines have already been noted, but interestingly Acolytes can carry them too (the example model given in the instructions is carrying the hard-case of cylinder charges, while the tnt-esque charge is designated as demolition charge).
I would completely disregard the Cutter and Drill. They are weapons which currently operate through their special rules which doesn't translate into a pure stateline for the instruction manual.
Without seeing what happens to those rules the stateline is meaningless.
I wouldn't go that far.
The drill is still damage 1, which is a pretty big hint it will still drill mortals.
However the cutter went from damage D3 to flat 3. It was previously unwieldy. I wouldn't be shocked if it lost the insta kill in exchange for the flat damage of 3 since that's a pretty big hop in damage.
Rock Cutters are damage 3. Drills are AP-4, same as the other two melee mining weapons. Saw statlines are unchanged.
Rending claws are AP-2 base. Acolyte and Metamorph leader boneswords are the same as the Primus', so damage 2 and S+1.
Demolition charges are damage 2.
Plain Goliath Trucks are still T6 but have Ld8 and a 3+ save.
Blasting charge statlines have already been noted, but interestingly Acolytes can carry them too (the example model given in the instructions is carrying the hard-case of cylinder charges, while the tnt-esque charge is designated as demolition charge).
where are you seeing the goliath stat leaks? I only saw the acolytes on here.
Also, pretty sure the neophytes already spoiled blasting charges in the Shadow Throne box.
I am really hoping the goliath gets more durability then that lol.
What are everyone's worst ideas for what units GW could introduce to fill in our HS and FA slots? I mean just laughably bad units - maybe a tracked support weapon that is slow, direct fire-only heavy mount for HS? Or something like an Aberrant 'chariot' where 2-3 Aberrants are towing something by hand?
Perhaps a Ravener-tailed Metamorph variant for 'extra speed, or a Ridgerunner equivalent that can only Transport 5 models, retaining only the stubbers for weapons?
What are your worst nightmares that the design team might inflict on us?
Well based on the articles on GW community, they are doing little tweaks of our current model range, while removing Brood Brothers from our GSC detachments and restricting buffs to Core models. Unless they unveil whole new ways that we can compete and hold objectives, GSC may be worse after their new Codex rather than better.
I would have expected a hint by now if there were new units
You are right - we don't know for sure that they are removing them from the codex, but the fact that in the Brood Brothers article they use a few units as an example of why you would want to include a detachment of BBs - and all of those units are currently part of the core GSC codex; infantry squads, heavy weapon teams, sentinels and leman russ tanks - why would you take a detachment to get them? The article is pretty ambiguous so there is still some wiggle room, but I am preparing for the worst.
I have no idea. But the article first claimed you could take a flyer, and that got redacted once it was pointed out it did not have the keyword.
Who ever is writing those articles is just doing their jobb. They are probably just naming familiar things to get their workload away.
I also feel the article could easily be talking about two different things. Brood brothers in the codex. And then in the nect paragraph about how awesome cult allies can be. It is all in all a bit anbigius. But I doubt they leave us with only 1 heavy support unit.
hangnailnz wrote: You are right - we don't know for sure that they are removing them from the codex, but the fact that in the Brood Brothers article they use a few units as an example of why you would want to include a detachment of BBs - and all of those units are currently part of the core GSC codex; infantry squads, heavy weapon teams, sentinels and leman russ tanks - why would you take a detachment to get them? The article is pretty ambiguous so there is still some wiggle room, but I am preparing for the worst.
Considering how one of the most common complaints was that BB didn't really benefit from any of the auras or whatever...is it really a huge surprise they might just cut them?
Also worth mentioning that Guard is due for an update. We don't know when or how big of one it's going to be. Would you rather have static, locked units...or things that can be altered?
hangnailnz wrote: You are right - we don't know for sure that they are removing them from the codex, but the fact that in the Brood Brothers article they use a few units as an example of why you would want to include a detachment of BBs - and all of those units are currently part of the core GSC codex; infantry squads, heavy weapon teams, sentinels and leman russ tanks - why would you take a detachment to get them? The article is pretty ambiguous so there is still some wiggle room, but I am preparing for the worst.
Considering how one of the most common complaints was that BB didn't really benefit from any of the auras or whatever...is it really a huge surprise they might just cut them?
Also worth mentioning that Guard is due for an update. We don't know when or how big of one it's going to be. Would you rather have static, locked units...or things that can be altered?
They would undoubtedly errata them. We don't live in the age of "Outside of point changes or extreme cases your printed books are sacrosanct" anymore, and the humble Leman Russ under discussion is enough evidence of that.
Kanluwen wrote: They didn't print Knights in the AdMech book to errata them later.
They just cut them out entirely.
I was not addressing the first part of your post, but the second:
Also worth mentioning that Guard is due for an update. We don't know when or how big of one it's going to be. Would you rather have static, locked units...or things that can be altered?
You imply here that we only have two possibilities: 1. The IG units being removed entirely but then the new, updated (and presumably better?) versions being available when the 9E IG book drops. 2. The IG units are included again, but when the 9E IG book drops we are then stuck with outdated versions of their datasheets while the IG enjoy (presumably better) updated datasheets.
I'm saying that possibility 2 as you present it is not a foregone conclusion, because GW has already on multiple times proven that they are not adverse to changing wargear, statlines, or datasheets after a book has released in 9E, unlike previous editions where at best they updated points/PL. We could potentially have possibility 2, which then gets updated via errata to reflect whatever changes come with the 9E IG codex.
Weapon previews pretty much confirm the discord leaks, along with a few pages that are leaking, in general it doesn't seem to paint a pretty picture from either the crunch perspective nor army flavor perspective.
I am seeing some silver linings, contingent on some restrictions and other info we don't have yet. Getting T1 deep strike on a unit for only 10 points is amazing, but if it's limit 1 per army then you're most likely just offering up that unit to be slaughtered. I am intensely curious as to why they think the Iconward is worth 75 points, that guy must have gotten a heck of a glow-up.
Doomerism is rife - but yeah, at least on the raw stats I'm not really convinced anything special is happening from the leaks.
"The mining laser now does D6 damage".
Am I... uh... going mad or did it not do that today?
Points will decide things - and how easy it is in practice to active Crossfire. But it feels like an army that has always relied on gimmicks is going to keep doing so.
Edit - Didn't realise the points had already leaked a couple of hours ago. Probably should digest for a few minutes.
Edit 2.
Yeah. Going to stick with the view this is codex Crossfire and some assault. Whether it works or is just fiddly then everything dies remains to be seen. Abbs at 30 points might be "interesting" with the extra wound and T5. Especially if they've kept their -1 damage and 5+++. Which someone probably knows by now but I'm struggling to keep up.
They do currently do D6 damage. Most likely the person in charge of writing the articles had a hard copy of the 8e codex in front of them and saw that they were D3 damage, because that's what they printed and then errata'd.
Madjob wrote: They do currently do D6 damage. Most likely the person in charge of writing the articles had a hard copy of the 8e codex in front of them and saw that they were D3 damage, because that's what they printed and then errata'd.
When even the company making the rules struggles to keep things straight because of misprints and day 1 FAQs they should probably pause and rethink their process because it's currently one of the worst in the industry somehow despite their growth and success.
Madjob wrote: They do currently do D6 damage. Most likely the person in charge of writing the articles had a hard copy of the 8e codex in front of them and saw that they were D3 damage, because that's what they printed and then errata'd.
When even the company making the rules struggles to keep things straight because of misprints and day 1 FAQs they should probably pause and rethink their process because it's currently one of the worst in the industry somehow despite their growth and success.
Or maybe, just maybe, players need to accept that there has never actually been an onus on people to know every single army's minutia?
Madjob wrote: They do currently do D6 damage. Most likely the person in charge of writing the articles had a hard copy of the 8e codex in front of them and saw that they were D3 damage, because that's what they printed and then errata'd.
When even the company making the rules struggles to keep things straight because of misprints and day 1 FAQs they should probably pause and rethink their process because it's currently one of the worst in the industry somehow despite their growth and success.
Or maybe, just maybe, players need to accept that there has never actually been an onus on people to know every single army's minutia?
I'm all for cutting employees slack but by definition someone whose job is to write about a product to promote said product absolutely has an onus to know the details of the product being sold.
Madjob wrote: They do currently do D6 damage. Most likely the person in charge of writing the articles had a hard copy of the 8e codex in front of them and saw that they were D3 damage, because that's what they printed and then errata'd.
When even the company making the rules struggles to keep things straight because of misprints and day 1 FAQs they should probably pause and rethink their process because it's currently one of the worst in the industry somehow despite their growth and success.
Or maybe, just maybe, players need to accept that there has never actually been an onus on people to know every single army's minutia?
Where was I blaming that employee?
I was calling out the billion dollar company that can't even be bothered to update an inaccurate product that's 4 years old and still being sold. Mistakes happen, but every print after the problem was found should be corrected going forward.
Automatically Appended Next Post: General codex Overview: Positive. Seems fairly balanced, I'd expect high mid-tier performance competitively, though there might be some cheese to be had with durability skew, it seems like you can really stack up some zany buffs, spamming trucks+rockgrinders+ridgerunners in a custom detachment could get problematic, but i dont think it'll be buggies-level bad as the firepower out of ridgerunners just aint the firepower out of ork buggies.
Weapons: Seismic up, Cutters up, Flamers up, Ridgerunner Missiles up, Ridgerunner mortars still sad, Webbers (IMO) still sad, stubbers still sad, drills still sad - but different sad!
Units: Aberrants up, Purestrains up, Metamorphs up, Jackals up, iconward up, Alphus down, Trucks up, Patriarch down, Abominant still sad, Knife Sanctus still sad (but sniper sanctus good!) All infantry looks preeeeeeeeeeetty decent tbh, reasons to take it all, and its all got kind of its own niche. I like it a lot. Neophytes look good with a couple builds - I like seismic neos and laser neos not terrible.
Kelermorph has suffered an unfortunate damage nerf, but has gained one of possibly THE best troll abilities in the game - he gets to make a normal move, and can explicitly do it after he deep strikes.
Is there a tank that needs tying up? An objective that has to be hopped on? A wall to hide behind? A truck to jump into? kelermorph is on it. It really seems like GW wants him to not be a suicide gunman...though he does have a fancy new strat for him doing just that, 2cp to shoot when he dies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you're currently spamming ridgerunners and trucks, you're not sad - ridgerunners are still good, and have one of the best use cases for one of our best strats: +1 to damage for ranged industrial weapons...which includes Heavy Mining Lasers (though not the missile launchers the RRs pack, which are decent now). So you can have 3d3 ML shots with +1 damage for 1cp!
Automatically Appended Next Post: There seems to be a compelling reason to use MOST cults and some custom cult combos. Main use for custom cults appears to be the general setup of:
-all models get mini-transhuman for no wound on 2s
-all models MAY ignore ANY OR ALL modifiers to hit rolls with Industrial Weapons (which is, basically, most gsc-specific guns and melee weapons)....this means you can IGNORE negative mods, like say the -1 to hit mod for the flat damge 3 rock cutter, and KEEP positive mods, like say Crossfire. Its a seriously fire trait, the best custom one
-Vehicles and bikes get 6+ FNP
and you basically take this with tons of bikes, tons of vheicles, and units like Acolytes with Cutters, Aberrants, etc in those vehicles
Automatically Appended Next Post: me personally I dont get the appeal of CT4AE this edition, others seem to think its got teeth. Rusted Claw seems overshadowed by the aforementioned custom cult which does everything it does but slightly better and just loses out on a fairly meh strat power relic and trait.
Bladed Cog seems solid for big buffed up bomb units using its strat like 10 Aberrants with 5++/5+FNP from Biophagus, Pauper Princes make for a great "Purple Tide" list with iconward making a bunch of melee units obnoxiously durable, Twisted Helix purestrains slap my entire bod, and Hivecult is basically the shooty gotta have damage cult.
Automatically Appended Next Post: HOLD UP no i just figured the drill out.
It's Sx2 Ap-4 D1, automatically wounds, if it scores a 6 to hit 2 mortal wounds.
This averages out slightly worse than the saw, and always worse than the cutter against most targets,
BUT
completely ignores -1 damge AND transhuman based abilities - so against those and obviously W1 targets the drill ends up on top.
Neat! So its got some teeth (heh) and its probably useful to bring 1 drill unit in your list.
Here's a tidbit - models that emerge from underground can be set up more than 8" away rather than 9", which instantly improves your charge success from 28% to 42%, and then if you have the 'roll 3 dice, drop one' rule from A Trap Sprung, that jumps again to 68%. Still sucks if you don't make it, but the chances just got much better...
Also, you can't split fire if you want to give a unit a Crossfire token - which is fine... but worth thinking about.
Acolytes buying Demo charges get two at a time, which makes them a bit more competitive against the heavy mining weapons - although how many units are going to get to drop their second round of demos is up for question!
There is a lot of flexibility with crossfire and exposed, I'm seeing. Plenty of ways to trigger it without having to get units lined across from each other, and tons of units have crossfire in the first place. Jackal Alphus and Sanctus stand out, both having crossfire, multi-damage weapons, high accuracy, and either give themselves the benefit of exposed or granting it to other units.
Initial impression is still looking like neophytes are the best troop slot option and you just skip acolytes and head over to abberants or purestrains if you want combat punch.
hangnailnz wrote: Here's a tidbit - models that emerge from underground can be set up more than 8" away rather than 9", which instantly improves your charge success from 28% to 42%, and then if you have the 'roll 3 dice, drop one' rule from A Trap Sprung, that jumps again to 68%. Still sucks if you don't make it, but the chances just got much better...
Also, you can't split fire if you want to give a unit a Crossfire token - which is fine... but worth thinking about.
Acolytes buying Demo charges get two at a time, which makes them a bit more competitive against the heavy mining weapons - although how many units are going to get to drop their second round of demos is up for question!
~70% to make a charge with just Trap upgrade, going to like 90% with a CP re-roll
or a +1 from the Iconward (apparently) means you have an 80% chance before the re-roll.
I think a deepstrike charging army is actually viable with this book, the reliability is there and you don't need to take 4AE to do it.
1440 points.... 560 points left for other stuff (2000 list).
Could make them bladed cog and give all 12 neophyte units 5++ save. No CP left after that. Weird but could be fun...
Or maybe:
- Agile Guerrillas (count as stationairy after advance)
- Industrial Affinity (no negative hit modifiers for industrial weapons)
- Accustomed to toil (ignore result 1-2 to wound)
In the command phase, if a unit has an icon - or are Core and within 6" of an Iconward, you can summon destroyed models back to a unit. You get back D6 Neophytes, or D3 anything else. If you have an icon & are in range of an Iconward you can roll twice and the results are cumulative - but you can't recover more than 6 Neophytes or 3 of any other unit in a single turn.
I think therefore it can apply to Neophytes, Acolytes, Metamorphs (who can all have Cult Icons and are Core) and Jackals (who are Core).
Its interesting - but feels a bit old-school Necrons to be and out and out "good". If you get one roll you are expecting to break even, if you get to roll twice you are definitely winning. But that means your opponent has had at least two attempts to kill some fairly flimsy units. In 9th? Not sure I see it. Would you be better off with just some extra bodies in the unit who can potentially do some damage and take the damage?
dreadlybrew wrote: Fire trucks and laser cars will still probably be the list to play. Simply because 20 flamers with crossfire qnd exposed are going to melt everything
I don't agree with folks obsession with hand flamers. In 8th at 1ppm they made sense. In 9th, frankly I think they are a trap in most cases, especially for +3 points on a 9ppm platform. If you shooting two full truck squads at a single target just for exposed thats 420 points... I just don't see that as being particularly good.
I do think having a 5 man squad with hand flamers is good as a toolbox unit, I just don't think spamming them out and using them for assault is that great. A jackal is also 12ppm and has 2 s4 shots base plus all the added bonuses to durability and mobility for example.
I think 15 acolytes with handflamers and Perfect Ambush is a worthwhile 200 points that inflicts 8.75 wounds on t4/5 3+sv. or 23 on t3 5+sv without needing any support.
Beyond that I like just 3 handflamers in any unit to be able to reliably put out 5 hits for a crossfire marker.
I am currently avoiding leaks to avoid coloring my opinions until I have the book in hand, but I would be happy to provide an updated primer once I have had an opportunity to review the book.
I suppose this thread itself can be locked now as well.
Ordana wrote: I think 15 acolytes with handflamers and Perfect Ambush is a worthwhile 200 points that inflicts 8.75 wounds on t4/5 3+sv. or 23 on t3 5+sv without needing any support.
Beyond that I like just 3 handflamers in any unit to be able to reliably put out 5 hits for a crossfire marker.
Only one unit can get that upgrade and 15 acolytes have the same issue with unit footprint that they always have.
I’m excited to try a vehicle/biker list with Deep Supplies, Industrial Affinity, and War Convoy. Industrial Affinity is especially nice. Gives move/shoot with neophyte heavy weapons while upgrading the rock cutter to full WS
I like 4 armed Emp for the re-roll charges, and the Twisted Helix for boosted Pure strains. I just purchased 1/2 of Spire, and look foward to Patrol box. I main Nids, so I have All the Stealers.
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