Brood Brothers don't have to be in separate detachment and don't break Cult rules even though they still do not benefit from Cult traits. So, you could throw in an Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker right next to your Broodlord in the same detachment to meet your two HQ.
They also specified that Cult Ambush will not cost CP.
I haven't seen it, but apparently there is a "leave combat" Strategem. If this is true then it indirectly gives a buff to Aberrants.
The current theory is that Acolytes are better than Aberrants. But in the new edition, it'll be a bit different.
Acolytes will charge, and kill stuff. Then next turn, the enemy remnants will just walk out of combat, and the Acolytes will simply get shot to pieces by the rest of the enemy army.
Same scenario with Aberrants? They will survive the enemy firestorm a hell of a lot better, especially if they are Bladed Cog or something.
You haven't guessed what happens to units like Sanctus that needs to be BABYSIT by something not to get targeted and how no LoS weapons are the best sniping weapons in the entire game
You haven't guessed what happens to units like Sanctus that needs to be BABYSIT by something not to get targeted and how no LoS weapons are the best sniping weapons in the entire game
I don't think I ever managed to get GSC to work properly in 8th, let alone 9th. The only way I'd have something left on the board at the end of any game was by souping in nid artillery batteries or lots of warriors, but now that's going to cost CP rather than generate it, and GSC are already very CP-hungry...
Mad-Max vehicle spam lists might be the way to go if hordes are on their way out - changes to coherency rules and coherency checks, character targeting, and multi-charges mean that the standard GSC ambush list will need some serious rethinking, but tbh I'm not sure it was ever viable before.
(FYI I did also try the bladed cog neophyte spam list on multiple occasions - same result, everyone dead at the end of the game - may have hindered me that my group never played with the later CA missions where acceptable casualties became a rule)
grouchoben wrote: Goodness me, things don't look too good for GSC, from what I can see.
What's the hive's opinion on vehicle heavy lists? Lots of ridgerunners and goliaths filled with lasers and webbers?
Or is carpet a sounder approach?
TYR have it worse since GSC units can be effectively played as 10 at most (a kind of GSCMSU), also Ridgerunners seem even better (unless they increase their points by a lot) and Aberrants could make a comeback if their points do not get adjusted (since they were overpriced from the the very beginning).
The only viable Creed is gonna 100% be Bladed Cog, Hive Cult lost its niche with a maximum of +1 to hit modifers and Twisted Helix is even worse now with new strength modifier rule.
Brood Brothers don't have to be in separate detachment and don't break Cult rules even though they still do not benefit from Cult traits. So, you could throw in an Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker right next to your Broodlord in the same detachment to meet your two HQ.
They also specified that Cult Ambush will not cost CP.
That's not what it says though. It is identical to the existing rule for Brood Brothers, but isn't showing later paragraphs of that rule (because the full rule takes up nearly a full page of the GSC book). Like the other Faction Focuses, this is just showcasing rules that GSC have access to.
grouchoben wrote:
What's the hive's opinion on vehicle heavy lists? Lots of ridgerunners and goliaths filled with lasers and webbers?
I did my first game of "9th" with my old pre-codex mechanized build and it did well enough. The removal of the heavy penalty makes it much more nimble than it used to be and more dangerous on the move. The new terrain rules are also rather helpful for most of our vehicles, in that I was able to hide most of my vehicles behind a pair of ruins that would not have offered any protection in 8th. I'd suggest a 2x Neophyte 1x Acolyte/Metamorph approach rather than just Neophytes. In my test game my melee assets still did fine work and I was able to keep them relatively safe by blocking sight with my trucks and Lurk in The Shadows.
Also Jackals are a major asset for screening vehicles. If you are bringing Ridgerunners anyway they also get some benefit from Flare Launchers as well.
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The only viable Creed is gonna 100% be Bladed Cog, Hive Cult lost its niche with a maximum of +1 to hit modifers and Twisted Helix is even worse now with new strength modifier rule.
Citation for the strength modifier being capped? I know to-wound and to-hit modifiers are capped, but there are a lot of weapons that add more than +1 strength so I can't see that being limited. Still, +1 strength is still good for most of the melee units in the book (wound T4 on a 3+) and +2'' to advance rolls is also a good benefit to have on smaller boards.
I think Hivecult should be fine. Being able to fall out of combat and shoot is still strong, especially for Jackals that no longer require Rusted Claw for wolfquads to fire at full effect. Chilling Efficiency will still have its uses. In particular, it is still really good to have for taking down a lord of war sort of target. Ridgerunners with buffs can cripple most big things, but they will probably need a bit of help to finish the target off and the Alphus can't cover all of the shooting assets (especially with the likelihood we will only be able to run 1 given how much we want to have command points). Also provides an alternative in the event that the Alphus gets sniped out early on.
Also in regards to the Sanctus, at least in my local meta we have a plethora of snipers running about (Vindicare, Rangers and Eldar character snipers, Rattings, my own Sanctus, Eliminators and Scouts) so I've already been playing mine with a small escort of troops for unquestioning loyalty.
KurtAngle2 wrote:
The only viable Creed is gonna 100% be Bladed Cog, Hive Cult lost its niche with a maximum of +1 to hit modifers and Twisted Helix is even worse now with new strength modifier rule.
Citation for the strength modifier being capped? I know to-wound and to-hit modifiers are capped, but there are a lot of weapons that add more than +1 strength so I can't see that being limited. Still, +1 strength is still good for most of the melee units in the book (wound T4 on a 3+) and +2'' to advance rolls is also a good benefit to have on smaller boards.
They clarified the calculation - multiplication first, then addition. This is a big deal for the S3 Sisters of Battle with our x2 weapons ((3x2)+1=7 versus (3+1)x2=8 means a 16% drop in efficiency against T4, T7, and T8), but your Abominants, Hybrids, and Aberrants are all S4 or above, so you're still at a minimum of S9 for the x2 melee weapons.
I'm just a bystander wandering through, not sure if I'm reading the situation right, but it doesn't seem like a huge nerf for Twisted Helix.
Off the top of my head I would wager the best list I can make now will be Goliath spam.
I have 3 rock grinders and 6 trucks so probably fill the trucks with bladed cog neophyes and the rock grinders with MSU abberants and characters. Of course ridge runner to taste as well.
Basically just run and gun (er driveby?) and charge in with the grinders. Now that they can burn in combat they are much scarier, not only that but you outflank them with the generic strat, allowing them deep into enemy lines where they can burn from reserve, might also be able to perfect ambush them now using that
When they die auto detonate them to ensure room for the 5 abbs to drop into.
Of course this list lives and dies by the new points costs because currently everything I mentioned is way over priced. But it is a funny and fun style. Sucks that big acolyte units got nerfed so bad this edition, but oh well. I think you can also use trucks for them, but honestly I have no idea why you would bother when you can have cheaper neos shooting 2 ML and 2 GL every turn. Heck the neo GL got even better in the mirror VS acolyte blobs since you will max shots every turn. Meanwhile hand flamers are 5ppm for some reason, ugh, RIP hand flamer bomb.
I think for me the go to character will obviosuly be the alphus. Now she makes all the trucks nearby shoot like marines, very big. I think the HQ slot will be much more competitive, but easier to filter through do to uselessness which is good in a bad way lol. RIP primus, abomanant and magus. There is no point in expensive characters you will get very limited use from. The patriarch is still not easy to use, but he is at least as good a psycher as the magus and better in melee then the abomanant, so he's like a twofer that can actually keep up with the vehicle pool and keep guys honest about wrapping the trucks up early. Not sold on the nexos, I feel like your going to blow points and CP on a detachment to take this guy now just so you MIGHT get those CP invested back. His best use is raising flags but I'd honestly take a locus for 10 ppm less and the ability to protect himself and others.
Cowboy and assassin are okish, it's really the points that will decide these guys because the new LOS rules will mean they either require even more points on body guards or they are one and done. Maybe the combat sanctus with bio knife will be the way to go, he was good before but harder to use, hilariously that may have flipped.
Brood brothers are another wrinkle. Not sure I like them beyond sentinels and mortars, although I will say both are way better. Mortars get even more shots against things they targeted already and sentinels with las can move and fire as if they had the bladed cog trait (I'll pretend like our PDF and vehicles have a trait even though they technically don't) and flamer sentinels are actually hilarious combat threats beyond tar-pitting. Just hanging out burning the enemy is pretty funny and very cool imagery.
Pure strains might be good in trucks if they actually cost equivalent to the hive fleet version finally. Could see one parked mid table just to create an "Oh sh!tz" zone, if they are too much maybe metamorphs.
All and all kind of a mixed bag really. We seem to have come out ahead if you were like me and preferred not to play with heaping, steaming, frothing piles of jank. Combining every cult creed imaginable with 3 types of specialist detachment and WLT/relics/strats. But not really because they got better but because the core rules helped out the formerly useless items. But a rising tide raises all ships, so I doubt how competitive we are since everyone in the game got these benefits too, but I'll state it again because it can't be understated enough:
Everything is reliant on the POINTS update. 6ppm cultists scare the crap out of my confidence though. That would put a neo at 7 and an acolyte at what 10? Yikes. Hopefully just chaos chaf got nuked (sorry dirty mike and the boyz).
So lets hope for the POINTS we both need and deserve fellas!
All in all, pretty bleak for those who (like me) didn't invest in cult vehicles. I have one rockgrinder, and three armoured sentinels (converted from space crusade dreadnoughts). The rest is cultists.
I do hope there is still some way of running ambush-heavy melee lists. I didn't pick up GSC in 7th to play guard, but throughout 8th and looks like going into 9th I'm feeling less and less hopeful for the cult.
KurtAngle2 wrote: TYR have it worse since GSC units can be effectively played as 10 at most (a kind of GSCMSU), also Ridgerunners seem even better (unless they increase their points by a lot) and Aberrants could make a comeback if their points do not get adjusted (since they were overpriced from the the very beginning).
The only viable Creed is gonna 100% be Bladed Cog, Hive Cult lost its niche with a maximum of +1 to hit modifers and Twisted Helix is even worse now with new strength modifier rule.
I'm gonna try and nostradamus here: if the minimum board sizes are tournament enforced and become common practice in casual play - Twisted Helix will be a popular choice not for the +1S, but the +2" advance. We'll be working with way tighter opportunities for underground cult ambushes, so a lot of units that would previously have been almost exclusively deployed that way will likely be hoofing it. Added to the new terrain rules, a CC unit moving 9"-15" inches while staying hidden or protected by cover bonuses and then having Psychic Stimulus cast on it will have a respectable threat range.
KurtAngle2 wrote: TYR have it worse since GSC units can be effectively played as 10 at most (a kind of GSCMSU), also Ridgerunners seem even better (unless they increase their points by a lot) and Aberrants could make a comeback if their points do not get adjusted (since they were overpriced from the the very beginning).
The only viable Creed is gonna 100% be Bladed Cog, Hive Cult lost its niche with a maximum of +1 to hit modifers and Twisted Helix is even worse now with new strength modifier rule.
I'm gonna try and nostradamus here: if the minimum board sizes are tournament enforced and become common practice in casual play - Twisted Helix will be a popular choice not for the +1S, but the +2" advance. We'll be working with way tighter opportunities for underground cult ambushes, so a lot of units that would previously have been almost exclusively deployed that way will likely be hoofing it. Added to the new terrain rules, a CC unit moving 9"-15" inches while staying hidden or protected by cover bonuses and then having Psychic Stimulus cast on it will have a respectable threat range.
Definitely not gonna happen since the terrain system is worse than previous ITC with enforced True LoS when you dare enter any terrain
Red Corsair wrote: Off the top of my head I would wager the best list I can make now will be Goliath spam.
I have 3 rock grinders and 6 trucks so probably fill the trucks with bladed cog neophyes and the rock grinders with MSU abberants and characters. Of course ridge runner to taste as well.
Basically just run and gun (er driveby?) and charge in with the grinders. Now that they can burn in combat they are much scarier, not only that but you outflank them with the generic strat, allowing them deep into enemy lines where they can burn from reserve, might also be able to perfect ambush them now using that
When they die auto detonate them to ensure room for the 5 abbs to drop into.
Of course this list lives and dies by the new points costs because currently everything I mentioned is way over priced. But it is a funny and fun style. Sucks that big acolyte units got nerfed so bad this edition, but oh well. I think you can also use trucks for them, but honestly I have no idea why you would bother when you can have cheaper neos shooting 2 ML and 2 GL every turn. Heck the neo GL got even better in the mirror VS acolyte blobs since you will max shots every turn. Meanwhile hand flamers are 5ppm for some reason, ugh, RIP hand flamer bomb.
I think for me the go to character will obviosuly be the alphus. Now she makes all the trucks nearby shoot like marines, very big. I think the HQ slot will be much more competitive, but easier to filter through do to uselessness which is good in a bad way lol. RIP primus, abomanant and magus. There is no point in expensive characters you will get very limited use from. The patriarch is still not easy to use, but he is at least as good a psycher as the magus and better in melee then the abomanant, so he's like a twofer that can actually keep up with the vehicle pool and keep guys honest about wrapping the trucks up early. Not sold on the nexos, I feel like your going to blow points and CP on a detachment to take this guy now just so you MIGHT get those CP invested back. His best use is raising flags but I'd honestly take a locus for 10 ppm less and the ability to protect himself and others.
Cowboy and assassin are okish, it's really the points that will decide these guys because the new LOS rules will mean they either require even more points on body guards or they are one and done. Maybe the combat sanctus with bio knife will be the way to go, he was good before but harder to use, hilariously that may have flipped.
Brood brothers are another wrinkle. Not sure I like them beyond sentinels and mortars, although I will say both are way better. Mortars get even more shots against things they targeted already and sentinels with las can move and fire as if they had the bladed cog trait (I'll pretend like our PDF and vehicles have a trait even though they technically don't) and flamer sentinels are actually hilarious combat threats beyond tar-pitting. Just hanging out burning the enemy is pretty funny and very cool imagery.
Pure strains might be good in trucks if they actually cost equivalent to the hive fleet version finally. Could see one parked mid table just to create an "Oh sh!tz" zone, if they are too much maybe metamorphs.
All and all kind of a mixed bag really. We seem to have come out ahead if you were like me and preferred not to play with heaping, steaming, frothing piles of jank. Combining every cult creed imaginable with 3 types of specialist detachment and WLT/relics/strats. But not really because they got better but because the core rules helped out the formerly useless items. But a rising tide raises all ships, so I doubt how competitive we are since everyone in the game got these benefits too, but I'll state it again because it can't be understated enough:
Everything is reliant on the POINTS update. 6ppm cultists scare the crap out of my confidence though. That would put a neo at 7 and an acolyte at what 10? Yikes. Hopefully just chaos chaf got nuked (sorry dirty mike and the boyz).
So lets hope for the POINTS we both need and deserve fellas!
thanks for the run down Corsair.
One thing I will say, is that I disagree about Magus being dead - honestly even at 90 pts just for just a single turn of Mind Control he's still attractive, never mind the other spell, although obviously Hypnosis has much less application now unfortunately.
Cowboy seems much the same, if not better since people will have less screens and his gunslinging will go further. Agreed on the Assassin flipping, which really disappoints me because I love my custom Sanctus (https://www.instagram.com/p/B1XcBjcne4F/) but he wasn't exactly mandatory before and he's only going to get worse now. He was great support for a line of psykers and helped them hold dominance in the psychic phase, but that's nerfed too by way of detachment changes, so it seems like his time may be up.
Will all depend on points, but I'm fairly confident GW hasn't considered any of that.
Your welcome, I was kind of just opening my brain up and free writing my initial takes so I am by no means married to any positions. I do love me all the GSC characters especially my magus, but as a chaos player it is tough to look at this guy when you take off your love goggles when you compare him to a sorcerer who is roughly the same cost. I think they simply over valued his aura ability a tad. I like it when it works but I can go long lengths without ever using it at all.
BTW as a Catachan and GSC player that conversion really has me with mixed feelings It's just so cool, but you did Marbo dirty
It's an awesome model mate, best part is he could be played as either version honestly.
I think the sniper assassin is going to by trickier to play with now, but sometimes that's fun (just not when it's the entire army GWlol). The knife fighter is going to make a great bully near objectives backed by your infantry, same with the locus. I like them currently because they are cheap, but who knows maybe all the characters drop significantly.
Melee weapons
Bonesword 5 |+2
Heavy improvised weapon 30 |+5
Heavy power hammer 15 |-1
Heavy rock cutter 10 |-2
Heavy rock drill 15
Heavy rock saw 10
Lashwhip and bonesword 5
Metamorph claw 3 |+1
Metamorph talon 2 |+1
Power axe 5
Power hammer 5 |+1
Power maul 5 |+1
Power pick 10 |+1
Sentinel chainsword 2
Look have rending claws become free? If so Metamorphs can be quite good. (I currently runn my group with 2 metamorphs that where very cheap during 8th edition. Hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's. Good for murdering infantery.)
Niiai wrote: Look have rending claws become free? If so Metamorphs can be quite good. (I currently runn my group with 2 metamorphs that where very cheap during 8th edition. Hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's. Good for murdering infantery.)
rending claws have always been free?
Metamorph talons are on the list. they went up 1 point. but the metamorphs themselves also went up in points.
It's really awesome that they felt the improvised weapon and abberants were still too cheap LMAO.
This is looking pretty bad if I am honest. Everything that was already too expensive actually went up again.
Whats worse, the cost effective units did as well.
Edit
lol at the drill still being 15 and the saw is only 10.
So basically that theoretical armored list I mentioned in an earlier post is probably still the better option, but total crap.
What kills me is how lazy these points adjustments are. I own 10 armies so it really stands out when only astartes got thoughtful granular increases. Several of their units went up by odd points like 2 or 3 points while all my other factions basically rounded to the nearest 5 point interval. But we already new there was bias, just hilarious how blatant it is. magus 85, primaris librarian 90.... Get wrecked GW!
Yea glancing through my 3 xenos armies, the only units that went down did so incidentally through wargear discounts. Otherwise the best we got was an even break. Obviously the trend was towards point increases or that's what I expected until I saw the SM point leaks, which gave the impression they might be keeping unit balance in mind as well with several actually going down from 8th > 9th but yea just looks like another case of GW only giving poster boys the time of day while everyone else gets lip service.
The FAQ to Rusted Claw is a interesting boon to jackals.
Changing pistols to assault when advancing doubles their shooting output. 1cp to reroll wounds makes them a little more damaging, at a 30 inch threat range.
But we don't really need more str3 shooting.
However, cult ambush still prevents us arriving post turn 3 which was something I was hoping would go away. so a first turn screen clearing unit has value, and with their threat range they can provide it.
dammit wrote: The FAQ to Rusted Claw is a interesting boon to jackals.
Changing pistols to assault when advancing doubles their shooting output. 1cp to reroll wounds makes them a little more damaging, at a 30 inch threat range.
But we don't really need more str3 shooting.
However, cult ambush still prevents us arriving post turn 3 which was something I was hoping would go away. so a first turn screen clearing unit has value, and with their threat range they can provide it.
They also changed the Agile Outriders custom cult creed to do the same thing as the new Rusted Claw trait. Although most people usually take Rusted Claw for the demo strategem, and with all the points increases on top of having to pay for a separate detachment — I'm not sure they'll be worth it. A Jackal unit with a Wolfquad already costs more than a Ridgerunner (81pts vs 70pts), and that's before you add any equipment or upgrade the heavy stubber.
They might be good candidates for the new Actions mechanic though..
*Page 74 – Cult Creeds, Agile Outriders Change this Cult Creed to read: ‘If a Biker unit with this Cult Creed Advances, until the end of the turn, all models in that unit treat all Pistol and Rapid Fire weapons they are equipped with as Assault weapons. Biker models with this Cult Creed do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’
the 40% price increase leaves me hesitant about bikes but they may well have their place.
What I am struggling with is what to hold the center of a board with.
Abberrants are to expensive (and prob to squishy). I previously used Tyranid Warriors but I can't find myself justifying the CP cost of another detachment so kind of at a loss.
Min units of Acolytes with 2x saws only went up a couple of points. Maybe a unit of that in a HML Rockgrinder would make a good center-holder, in a parking lot with a Jackal Alphus and a couple of Goliath Trucks with ML Neophytes in it?
the structure I'm looking at is something like this:
Bladed Cog cult
Magus with Bladed Cog 5+FNP spell+Might from Beyond and a Familiar
Jackal Alphus to buff the parking lot
1x big 20 man Acolyte unit with max saws and banner
2x neophyte squads with 2 MLs 2x 5 man acolyte squads with 2 saws/cutters
2x goliath trucks for the neophytes
2x goliath rockgrinders for the acolytes
2x naked biker squads for outside objective grabbing/actions/table quarters secondary nabbing
2x Ridgerunner with HML and flares
Clamavus to guarantee the bomb makes it in
Kelermorph because kelermorph
Basically, the big antitank heavy parking lot camps in the center of the board with the rockgrinders and acos playing bouncer and tanking hits, the bikers roll up the outside, and the Magus+Clamavus+20 acos drops turn 2 as a melee bomb.
I think most used to sneer at 5 man acolyte squads, because a vaguely hot overwatch phase would kill them. I still think there are issues - but in an objective based game, with obsec, maybe they can be useful.
I'm having fantasies on the following:
A Magus,
An Alphus,
6 Neophytes 2 MLs,
6 Goliath Trucks,
9 Ridgerunners
2 Rockgrinders
for 2k points.
I'm not convinced its any good - as you are getting almost nothing from GSC's army rules, and you either get the vaguely decent Hivecult warlord trait, or bladed cog for the 6 squads of Neophytes - but there is something funny in a mech wall. Awful lot of mining laser shots.
Yeah the moment your stepping away from a bunch of deepstriking acolytes and into tank parks I would ask the question. Why are you not playing IG?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: Min units of Acolytes with 2x saws only went up a couple of points. Maybe a unit of that in a HML Rockgrinder would make a good center-holder, in a parking lot with a Jackal Alphus and a couple of Goliath Trucks with ML Neophytes in it?
the structure I'm looking at is something like this:
<Snip>
Basically, the big antitank heavy parking lot camps in the center of the board with the rockgrinders and acos playing bouncer and tanking hits, the bikers roll up the outside, and the Magus+Clamavus+20 acos drops turn 2 as a melee bomb.
I would consider dropping the Clamavus since you can just Perfect Ambush your 1 CC unit.
Tyel wrote: I think most used to sneer at 5 man acolyte squads, because a vaguely hot overwatch phase would kill them. I still think there are issues - but in an objective based game, with obsec, maybe they can be useful.
I'm having fantasies on the following:
A Magus,
An Alphus,
6 Neophytes 2 MLs,
6 Goliath Trucks,
9 Ridgerunners
2 Rockgrinders
for 2k points.
I'm not convinced its any good - as you are getting almost nothing from GSC's army rules, and you either get the vaguely decent Hivecult warlord trait, or bladed cog for the 6 squads of Neophytes - but there is something funny in a mech wall. Awful lot of mining laser shots.
Yeah, 5 acolytes with cutters or saws is 60pts. That's gonna be something to think about for most units, take it in four-armed emperor for 42% charge chance, and drop in just enough each turn to score yourself the table quarters secondary and cause some havoc/force your opponent to play around them.
in my eyes, the only units in the codex that I just cannot see a use case for are:
-Locus. Poor guy has never really had a purpose, can't see him finding one now.
-Biologus/lesser extent Abominant. Stapled to the worst unit in the codex.
-Aberrants. Just so, so, massively overcosted. 37 points for a heavy power hammer aberrant, 43 points for a TH/SS terminator? Give me a fething break. You can have a pair of saw acolytes for 1 point less.
-Metamorphs. Back in your closet you fugly abominations, you never had a purpose anyway and now you're back to being hilariously overpriced.
-Purestrains. bad for reason they've always been bad. 15pt tyranid genestealers who get obsec and fleet traits might be quasi-usable? Given how much I'm looking at units whose only goal in life is to hunker down and perform actions, I'm kind of feeling allied Jormungandr 3+ armored 'stealers at 15ppm 5-man squads. Nice objectives, nerd, come and get them.
-Probably cult chimera. I still don't think chimeras know what they're supposed to be doing, since transports in 8th and 9th don't actually make your dudes faster and you can't shoot out of 'em.
Everything else, I can see at least one loadout that I can look at and go "Ehhh, maybe?" Neophytes with lasers in trucks. Acolytes either as a bomb or as little min deep strike squads with melee weapons or in rockgrinders. Bikes naked with shotgun and knife or shotgun and pistol in Rusted Claw.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, 5 acolytes with cutters or saws is 60pts. That's gonna be something to think about for most units, take it in four-armed emperor for 42% charge chance, and drop in just enough each turn to score yourself the table quarters secondary and cause some havoc/force your opponent to play around them.
in my eyes, the only units in the codex that I just cannot see a use case for are:
-Locus. Poor guy has never really had a purpose, can't see him finding one now.
-Biologus/lesser extent Abominant. Stapled to the worst unit in the codex.
-Aberrants. Just so, so, massively overcosted. 37 points for a heavy power hammer aberrant, 43 points for a TH/SS terminator? Give me a fething break. You can have a pair of saw acolytes for 1 point less.
-Metamorphs. Back in your closet you fugly abominations, you never had a purpose anyway and now you're back to being hilariously overpriced.
-Purestrains. bad for reason they've always been bad. 15pt tyranid genestealers who get obsec and fleet traits might be quasi-usable? Given how much I'm looking at units whose only goal in life is to hunker down and perform actions, I'm kind of feeling allied Jormungandr 3+ armored 'stealers at 15ppm 5-man squads. Nice objectives, nerd, come and get them.
-Probably cult chimera. I still don't think chimeras know what they're supposed to be doing, since transports in 8th and 9th don't actually make your dudes faster and you can't shoot out of 'em.
Everything else, I can see at least one loadout that I can look at and go "Ehhh, maybe?" Neophytes with lasers in trucks. Acolytes either as a bomb or as little min deep strike squads with melee weapons or in rockgrinders. Bikes naked with shotgun and knife or shotgun and pistol in Rusted Claw.
Can't disagree. Aberrants and all their support staff clearly tabled a senior GW executive last year and they seem to want them deader than disco. I think Metamorphs were okay when, base, they were a point more than Acolytes. Losing obsec is bad - but gaining an extra attack, and the knife equivalent being WS2+ was arguably worth it. You don't need everyone to carry rocksaws when you punch like a genestealer for quite a bit less points.
But now being 5 points more than Acolytes, its a dead unit.
Feel the Locus is just confused. If he was a super-cheap HQ he might open up some list flexibility - but he doesn't buff anything, he just stabs things a bit. Perhaps strangely if he wasn't limited by the character rule, it might be fun to run 3 of them together as a little gang. Not sure it would be remotely competitive, but they could potentially chase down some characters and bully some small squads. Bringing one though just feels like he's never going to achieve anything.
Unfortunately, if you don't want to play like Guard, I feel you only really have acolyte bombs, and the slight advantage of relatively mobile, higher-density lascannons on neophytes.
But really, its all about getting 3 shots on the heavy mining lasers into units with 6+ models. (Not totally serious.)
The love from GW For Genestealers cult is feeling colder than the love of the incoming tyranid fleet that will devour all cultists at the end of the battle. Time to let the army rest in my cupboard until new codex drops
On the brighter side of losing the specialist detachments, we have more CP to work with, especially if taking the relic meant you had to pay CP for extra relics, or if you used the stratagems. Considering we already have less CP than in 8th, it's kinda nice not feeling forced to spend it on the specialist stuff, and we still have plenty of great stratagems.
It does seem like Genestealer Cults will be struggling to keep up, but I haven't given up on the faction just yet.
I think we'll need to keep our unit sizes maxed out at 10 to mitigate the impact of Blast weapons — maybe an exception if you want to run the hand-flamer bomb, but T3/1W units of 11+ are just asking to be slaughtered now.
For most missions it looks like if we secure at least two objectives throughout the match, then our opponent will at-most score 5 points total more than us for Primaries. If we manage to hold more objectives just once for a round, and then secure two for the rest of the match, then we can get the full 45 points.
One of the main problems I've found looking into 9th is that we don't have durable objective-holding units compared to other factions, so we'll have to find a way to work around that. It helps that most of our units can deep strike across the board, and we have a few sneaky stratagems to play with. Secondaries are going to be tough too, although depending on our opponent's army composition, some of them can be much easier to achieve.
I'm not too discouraged by the points changes, it's pretty clear they were just throwing numbers around trying to increase things without considering whether the unit was already overpriced. I mean look at Purestrain Genestealers — they're arguably the worst unit in the Genestealer Cult codex, overcosted second only to aberrants — and they got a heftier point increase than our best units...
Space Marines are going to cause headaches for everyone that isn't also playing Space Marines — but with any luck (and competence on GW's end) — the new codex's will help balance things out a bit. Most people are saying Genestealer Cult got hit the hardest with all the changes made since 8th started, so there's a slight chance GW has noticed it too.
Specialist Detachments are not allowed in the tournament matched play.
Oh ok. Just for tournament matched play then. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I will happily continue to run my Deliverance Broodsurge with 4AE and feel like I'm actually playing an insurgent uprising rather than bootleg guard.
Khorzain wrote: On the brighter side of losing the specialist detachments, we have more CP to work with, especially if taking the charge re-roll relic meant you had to pay CP for extra relics, or if you used the +1 to wound stratagem. Considering we already have less CP than in 8th, it's kinda nice not feeling forced to spend it on the specialist stuff, and we still have plenty of great stratagems.
Lol, kudos for being able to put a nice spin on what is clearly bad. If it wasn't worth the CP we wouldn't have spent it. But if we don't complain then they definitely won't do anything about it. They already have our money.
They definitely won’t do anything about it even if you do complain. GSC is like a Xenos faction of a Xenos faction. You’re so low on the list of people who GW gives a gak about, that it wouldn’t surprise me if ending up a the bottom of the ladder was softly intended. At the very least, it’s an accurate reflection of how much they care.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the plus side someone who wrote your dex obviously really loves the faction, so while they won’t have any control over GW’s rebalancing over the years and the FAQs, you can be pretty confident that when you DO get your next dex it’s probably gonna be pretty lit and may make up for some neglect. Assuming un-named author hasn’t quit
I'm not about to think GSC don't have a chance or is dead. Some things changed, and maybe more so for us than others, but I'll be trying every combination of models I can imagine, as well as combining them with Tyranids to use the strengths of both, or to use them to off-set each others weaknesses.
I really dont like when people basically throw their arms up in despair when they think things wont work.
Yes, we have less staying power than other armies, but we also have a good amount of dakka and the ability to clear things off their objectives if we want. Ridgerunners didnt change in cost and they were already incredible, now theyre even better. We dont need to take and hold all the objectives just more than the enemy holds.
Terrain will be useful for us, LOS blocking mechanisms to offset our low saves and need to charge at times, as will reduced overwatches and improved melee engagement range of 1" and 5" vertically.
Y'all are welcome to be negative; but lets try to turn this conversation into something about what we've done that has worked well and try to figure out what is still great about our glorious cult.
Try not to be disheartened, at the end of the day it is a game. We need to find ways to use this amazing army.
I'll report back in 3 days as I have 5 matches scheduled and I have various styles ill be trying.
Personally (motivated by owning roughly 40 genestealer models from 2 sets worth of Space Hulk) I'm curious about allying in a Jormungandr battalion of just Broodlords+Genestealers with Extended Carapace. Every game I've played or witnessed in this edition so far has hinged around melee units crashing into each other or tanking on objectives. Having a bunch of T4 models with 2+ saves in Light Cover may be better at tanking than anything GSC have got.
the_scotsman wrote: Personally (motivated by owning roughly 40 genestealer models from 2 sets worth of Space Hulk) I'm curious about allying in a Jormungandr battalion of just Broodlords+Genestealers with Extended Carapace. Every game I've played or witnessed in this edition so far has hinged around melee units crashing into each other or tanking on objectives. Having a bunch of T4 models with 2+ saves in Light Cover may be better at tanking than anything GSC have got.
THis I like. In many ways Leviathan, and Jormangandr are looking like top choices for Nids, fare well star brother!
Just spam TH acolytes and hope the opponent brought MEC killing stuff, be counter meta. Morale rules and cover rules will help a lot I think. The psychic power enabling the charge after advance will help a lot if we go for big blobs and say « I don’t care about blast, blast won’t be meta lalala ».
TH acolytes are still good against MEC I think.
Ridge runners yes they are great but as was said before what is the point in playing gsc if you want to go vehicule heavy ?? I own 4 goliath trucks / rockgrinders but that is just because I am dreamer and thought GW would actually make transporting cult dudes actually decent At some point...
Thing is without Primus (because it will be tough to get him in aura range Alice with coherency rules) our stuff feels kind of on the weak side, but with overwatch More or less gone who knows ? Perhaps 6*10 TH acolytes, or blobs « I don’t care about blast » could workÂ
Arkengate wrote: I'm not about to think GSC don't have a chance or is dead. Some things changed, and maybe more so for us than others, but I'll be trying every combination of models I can imagine, as well as combining them with Tyranids to use the strengths of both, or to use them to off-set each others weaknesses.
I really dont like when people basically throw their arms up in despair when they think things wont work.
Yes, we have less staying power than other armies, but we also have a good amount of dakka and the ability to clear things off their objectives if we want. Ridgerunners didnt change in cost and they were already incredible, now theyre even better. We dont need to take and hold all the objectives just more than the enemy holds.
Terrain will be useful for us, LOS blocking mechanisms to offset our low saves and need to charge at times, as will reduced overwatches and improved melee engagement range of 1" and 5" vertically.
Y'all are welcome to be negative; but lets try to turn this conversation into something about what we've done that has worked well and try to figure out what is still great about our glorious cult.
Try not to be disheartened, at the end of the day it is a game. We need to find ways to use this amazing army.
I'll report back in 3 days as I have 5 matches scheduled and I have various styles ill be trying.
Just a headsup, Ridgerunners went up 11 points each baseline (70 total for a heavy laser variant), due to heavy stubbers going from 2>5, and the base cost increasing by 5. The Mortar and Missile variants went up as well (70pts/75pts), but I think the Lasers are still the best since you can use the +1 wound stratagem on them. Even with Blast rules, the missiles and heavy mortars are just too expensive for how little they offer.
I do think that terrain will be a bigger deal for GSC in 9th, so long as your game tables are using the recommended amount.
I've been thinking about using Trucks for Acolytes instead of Neophytes, since charging out of deep-strike is going to be even harder than before, and we won't have as much CP to use on Perfect Ambush. The 1CP stratagem to let Acolytes advance and charge seems very good paired with Twisted Helix's +2 advance.
Mid-board objectives are 8-12" away from our deployment zone, which means that trucks can reach them turn 1 if they have a clear path — It's just a shame that Goliaths are 85 points each after the points increase ... that's 5 points more than a neophyte squad with 2 mining lasers.
Here's my current GSC manifesto, spoilered for massive TL;DR
Spoiler:
Genestealer cults got hit incredibly hard by 9th edition, both structurally and in the points changes. They now give up CP if they ever want to have more than one of each character, they have a smaller board which reduces the effectiveness of blips and deep strike, and they have to hold objectives for an entire round to score which, as a glass cannon army, generally isn't super easy.
This is going to be a discussion based on some theoryhammer and some test games on how to use what is, for now at least, most likely the worst army in 40k. What units to use, what units to shelve, and how to try and play the new missions in such a way that you can win games.
The Bad: Let's get these out of the way first. Units that you generally have no reason to use in their current, 9th edition state, and when you might consider including them anyway.
1) Purestrain Genestealers. GSC has always had the problem where they're a teeny tiny little codex with a puddle-deep unit pool, yet they have not one, not two, but THREE units all competing to do the exact same job of being a deep striking glass cannon melee unit with S4 AP-1 D1 attacks that rend on 6s. One of them is generally the best, the one that is almost always the best is acolytes, spoiler alert in 9th edition it's still acolytes but even more so now. Maybe if you could give these guys Cult Traits, like +2" to advance and +1S, or +1 to their invuln saves, or +1" to charge out of deep strike, they'd be worth 17 points per model, but without that, nooooo. If you own genestealer models and you want to use them, consider allying in an allied patrol of Tyranids, where they get Hive Fleet traits, cost 2ppm less base, gain Obsec, and gain a number of useful stratagems and psychic powers you can cast on them with a Broodlord. With the new morale system and the removal of Overwatch, the Patriarch is less useful than he was before, so consider running him as a Broodlord with Catalyst as the HQ of a tyranid patrol. A unit of Jormungandr genestealers with Catalyst up and extended carapace would be an absolute nightmare to get rid of.
2) Metamporphs. GW got real real close to realizing that Hybrid Metamorphs are just Acolytes with no obsec, no special melee weapons, and sliiiightly more melee damage output, so they really ought to be just like 1-2 points more, but then they hit themselves on the heads with a hammer and did the 9th edition points changes, they're 13ppm base now vs 8ppm acolytes :^). The only possibly usable configuration for Metamorphs is the Whip, which brings them down to 11ppm, and turns them into essentially Acolytes that still get to fight even if you interrupt them or make them fight last/you fight first. If units like the Putrid Blightspawn or Slaanesh daemons/marines become the meta thanks to Fight First abilities getting a huge buff in 9th, bringing a couple units of metamorphs might allow you to counter that strategy and clear out a nasty close combat unit that you can't shoot efficiently in the middle of the board. Why do you still consider the claw an upgrade, GW? it makes their damage worse against most targets... nevermind, it's fine.
3) Aberrants (and by extension, the Biophagus AKA Dr. Zoidberg). Say, if you had to take a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator, and you knew that was going to be 42 points in the new edition. And say you were going to take away Shock Assault, ATSKNF, and the armor save and storm shield, and just leave them with the base terminator 5++, all other stats the same, how many points of discount do you figure you'd give that unit? If you said "Five points, that's what all that stuff is worth" then you're thinking like Games Workshop in the 9th edition point values! Abberrants are now an eye-watering 37 points per model, or 33 points per model for the "cheap" version with the power picks. To make matters worse, it seems that Specialist Detachments are going the way of the dodo, so the Annointed Throng may be on its way out. It is INCREDIBLY tough to justify taking one of these dudes now that they're 37ppm right next to a Rock Saw acolyte who's 18ppm, which means of course you're also never going to take their attendant scientist idiot dude who has a 1 in 6 chance of just yeeting one of your crazy expensive aberrants via his special rule that you now CANT REROLL.
4) Sanctus. The sanctus got hosed more by the core rules of 9th than by the points changes. He used to be an interesting niche counter to PSYKER characters that you could put in your list, and when you came up against a particularly nasty psyker you wanted to make sure you killed, you took the special sniper rifle relic with +2 to wound which gave you a 4+ to deal a mortal wound and by extension a perils of the warp. Now, you'd have to commit to that being your relic every time, even when your opponent has no psykers, AND they didn't change its rules at all - it still has a +2 to wound which in 9th doesn't actually give +2 to wound, it gives +1 to wound. He also has a tendency to be sitting somewhere in the back of the battlefield, which in 9th is much closer to the action with the smaller board, and if he's not within 3" of a friendly unit he's not getting any character protection. Sure, he gets a 3+ in cover, but that basically means any opponent who doesn't want to deal with him will just slap him with one lascannon and leave him a pair of smoking boots.
5) Many, many weapon options. The point nerfs made a lot of those classic very very weak and unimpactful GSC weapon options absolute wastes of your time. I can understand making the argument for the Hand Flamer since max squads of hand flamer acolytes did see some tournament play prior to the space marine meta, but why any of these other choices needed to have their costs doubled, more than doubled, or in one case quintupled is beyond me. So, here's a list of options to never ever ever ever take if you have the choice: Bolt Pistol, Cache of Demo Charges, Demo Charge, Grenade Launcher, Hand Flamer, Heavy Mortar, Heavy Stubber (when non-mandatory), Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta, Web Pistol, Webber, Bonesword, Heavy Rock Drill, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Metamorph Claw, Metamorph Talon, Power Axe, Power Hammer, Power Maul, Power Pick. Hope you didn't glue any of your models with any of those things, because now they're only useful in power level games! GW decided that a regular flamer and a flamer with 18" range but only one single shot, those were basically the same level of usefulness right?
The Good: Units that actually seem to have more of a reason to exist than they did before under the new 9th ed rules.
1) Achilles Ridgerunners: They got about the average point nerf for 9th edition of ~20%, but can now move and shoot, which is fairly huge for them. With their handy +1 to wound stratagem, Achilles Ridgerunners (with specifically the auto-take loadout of Heavy Mining Laser and Flare Launcher) are looking quite solid going into 9th. Mobility is fairly strong, pregame movement is fairly strong, and people are most likely going to be taking more vehicles than they did before so vehicle-hunter units are looking good into the initial meta.
2) Goliath Trucks: Same reason as the Ridgerunners, really. Fairly modest point nerf, and for the points, a unit of Bladed Cog neophytes with 2x mining lasers mounted aboard a Goliath is one of our best ways to hold objectives for the new missions. You can perform the same job for cheaper with a unit of Brood Brothers mounted aboard a chimera, but you're giving up a lot of antitank firepower to do so, so that's a trade-off you'll have to figure out for yourself.
3) The Jackal Alphus: Probably the most improved HQ mostly because it doesn't seem like GSC can just rely on dropping in huge numbers of deep striking melee units and tabling their opponent to win the missions anymore. The Alphus can make your Goliaths and the squad inside hit on 3s (thanks to the wording of the open-topped rule and the fact her aura is a Modifier) and as a little cherry on top she can move and shoot her sniper rifle.
4) the Locus: Everybody's going to be taking a second look at units that have "always Fight First" abilities in 9th. S4 Ap-3 D2 on the charge makes him solid for attacking primaris marines, he's easier to hide than a minimum squad of acolytes if you want him to drop in and perform an action, and he costs exactly the same amount. I can definitely see including this dude in a list now.
5) Acolyte Squads (minimum size): Acolytes at max size and min size have always kind of been completely different units. The max size ones you drop them in, spend a ton of buffs and CP on them, and try to carve up a huge chunk of the enemy army. The min size ones historically you might throw in to a rockgrinder with some democharges as a bit of added threat, but in 9th you've got the removal of overwatch, secondary objectives that make tiny deep striking INFANTRY keyword units extremely annoying, and a point drop on Heavy Rock Saws that make it so a min squad of acolytes with 2x saws is only 1 single point more expensive than it was in 8th.
6) Atalan Jackals, maybe. Jackals and their wolfquad buddy did see pretty substantial point nerfs, 40% and 33% respectively. the thing that makes them possibly still worth looking into is the new missions, where mobility can allow you to score a ton of secondary points every turn, and the new Rusted Claw trait, which allows you to take both a shotgun and an autopistol and use them together after advancing with no penalty to hit. Min squads with Atalan incinerators, all the shotguns they can take and autopistols/autoguns on the sergeant put out pretty good anti-chaff firepower while absolutely screaming around the board.
General Listbuilding Strategies
I've tried out a couple styles of play so far, mostly involving vehicles since I have quite a few of them. I have a feeling you could probably do something with acolyte spam but I own 40x acolytes total unlike players with older competitive lists who own like 120+, so I can't test that.
Style 1: Extremely limited melee, guncult.
Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession
HQ: Magus 85, psychic powers: Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor
HQ: Primus 80.
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
1998 points.
This is a list with heavy scoring, screens that can drop onto the board, and just enough scattered threat to tie up unscreened Blast weapon units, assassinate characters, countercharge melee units, and provide enough of a credible threat that space marine armies aren't going to just wade into the center of the board with their primaris fists and start smacking you around. As someone who likes a tactical playstyle without a designated "Ok, here's the plan, all your CP expenditure is figured out in advance and all your big moves are already decided" this felt pretty good to play. Use your move and shoot heavy on everything to make sure your neophyte trucks are where they need to be, put a few squads of Brood Brothers into reserves to deep strike some screens in, and don't commit too hard to the ball around the Jackal Alphus that you aren't scoring as many points as possible: you still probably won't win a drag-out firefight with a full gun castle list.
Style 3: Hybrid melee/shooting with 1 big bomb
Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75. Warlord Trait: single minded Obsession
HQ: Primus 80
HQ: Magus 85, Familiar 15, Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor
Elites: Kelermorph 80, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Elites: Clamavus 65
Elites: Nexos 55
Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Cult HWT 18, 3x Mortars 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
2000 pts
This one exchanges a little bit of firepower for an alpha strike melee bomb that you can drop in and blow a huge chunk of CP on to ideally carve off a chunk of the enemy army and create a huge distraction while you rack up points turn 2/3. I think this is getting PRETTY close to optimized in terms of what GSC want to be doing in the new edition. Just like the last list, cult ambush means you dont' have to expose any infantry to antichaff firepower turn 1 unless your opponent cracks a transport, you still have the obnoxious 3++ kelermorph, and now you have more stuff to spend your CPs on rather than the last list where I was basically using command points on +1s to wound here or there.
Style 3: As yet untested, Unstoppable Jormungandr Genstealer Tanks
Cult of the Bladed Cog Battalion Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75
HQ: Patriarch 135, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession. Psychic Power: Might from Beyond
Starting this one with 9cp rather than 12cp, but ditching the deep strike bomb that requires 5CP to do its turn 1 thing, rather than building into an alpha strike this list builds an enormous, threatening brick of a unit of genestealers that is going to roll into the center of the board and require ABSURD firepower to remove if you can get it into cover and keep catalyst on it.
the_scotsman wrote: Here's my current GSC manifesto, spoilered for massive TL;DR
Spoiler:
Genestealer cults got hit incredibly hard by 9th edition, both structurally and in the points changes. They now give up CP if they ever want to have more than one of each character, they have a smaller board which reduces the effectiveness of blips and deep strike, and they have to hold objectives for an entire round to score which, as a glass cannon army, generally isn't super easy.
This is going to be a discussion based on some theoryhammer and some test games on how to use what is, for now at least, most likely the worst army in 40k. What units to use, what units to shelve, and how to try and play the new missions in such a way that you can win games.
The Bad: Let's get these out of the way first. Units that you generally have no reason to use in their current, 9th edition state, and when you might consider including them anyway.
1) Purestrain Genestealers. GSC has always had the problem where they're a teeny tiny little codex with a puddle-deep unit pool, yet they have not one, not two, but THREE units all competing to do the exact same job of being a deep striking glass cannon melee unit with S4 AP-1 D1 attacks that rend on 6s. One of them is generally the best, the one that is almost always the best is acolytes, spoiler alert in 9th edition it's still acolytes but even more so now. Maybe if you could give these guys Cult Traits, like +2" to advance and +1S, or +1 to their invuln saves, or +1" to charge out of deep strike, they'd be worth 17 points per model, but without that, nooooo. If you own genestealer models and you want to use them, consider allying in an allied patrol of Tyranids, where they get Hive Fleet traits, cost 2ppm less base, gain Obsec, and gain a number of useful stratagems and psychic powers you can cast on them with a Broodlord. With the new morale system and the removal of Overwatch, the Patriarch is less useful than he was before, so consider running him as a Broodlord with Catalyst as the HQ of a tyranid patrol. A unit of Jormungandr genestealers with Catalyst up and extended carapace would be an absolute nightmare to get rid of.
2) Metamporphs. GW got real real close to realizing that Hybrid Metamorphs are just Acolytes with no obsec, no special melee weapons, and sliiiightly more melee damage output, so they really ought to be just like 1-2 points more, but then they hit themselves on the heads with a hammer and did the 9th edition points changes, they're 13ppm base now vs 8ppm acolytes :^). The only possibly usable configuration for Metamorphs is the Whip, which brings them down to 11ppm, and turns them into essentially Acolytes that still get to fight even if you interrupt them or make them fight last/you fight first. If units like the Putrid Blightspawn or Slaanesh daemons/marines become the meta thanks to Fight First abilities getting a huge buff in 9th, bringing a couple units of metamorphs might allow you to counter that strategy and clear out a nasty close combat unit that you can't shoot efficiently in the middle of the board. Why do you still consider the claw an upgrade, GW? it makes their damage worse against most targets... nevermind, it's fine.
3) Aberrants (and by extension, the Biophagus AKA Dr. Zoidberg). Say, if you had to take a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator, and you knew that was going to be 42 points in the new edition. And say you were going to take away Shock Assault, ATSKNF, and the armor save and storm shield, and just leave them with the base terminator 5++, all other stats the same, how many points of discount do you figure you'd give that unit? If you said "Five points, that's what all that stuff is worth" then you're thinking like Games Workshop in the 9th edition point values! Abberrants are now an eye-watering 37 points per model, or 33 points per model for the "cheap" version with the power picks. To make matters worse, it seems that Specialist Detachments are going the way of the dodo, so the Annointed Throng may be on its way out. It is INCREDIBLY tough to justify taking one of these dudes now that they're 37ppm right next to a Rock Saw acolyte who's 18ppm, which means of course you're also never going to take their attendant scientist idiot dude who has a 1 in 6 chance of just yeeting one of your crazy expensive aberrants via his special rule that you now CANT REROLL.
4) Sanctus. The sanctus got hosed more by the core rules of 9th than by the points changes. He used to be an interesting niche counter to PSYKER characters that you could put in your list, and when you came up against a particularly nasty psyker you wanted to make sure you killed, you took the special sniper rifle relic with +2 to wound which gave you a 4+ to deal a mortal wound and by extension a perils of the warp. Now, you'd have to commit to that being your relic every time, even when your opponent has no psykers, AND they didn't change its rules at all - it still has a +2 to wound which in 9th doesn't actually give +2 to wound, it gives +1 to wound. He also has a tendency to be sitting somewhere in the back of the battlefield, which in 9th is much closer to the action with the smaller board, and if he's not within 3" of a friendly unit he's not getting any character protection. Sure, he gets a 3+ in cover, but that basically means any opponent who doesn't want to deal with him will just slap him with one lascannon and leave him a pair of smoking boots.
5) Many, many weapon options. The point nerfs made a lot of those classic very very weak and unimpactful GSC weapon options absolute wastes of your time. I can understand making the argument for the Hand Flamer since max squads of hand flamer acolytes did see some tournament play prior to the space marine meta, but why any of these other choices needed to have their costs doubled, more than doubled, or in one case quintupled is beyond me. So, here's a list of options to never ever ever ever take if you have the choice: Bolt Pistol, Cache of Demo Charges, Demo Charge, Grenade Launcher, Hand Flamer, Heavy Mortar, Heavy Stubber (when non-mandatory), Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta, Web Pistol, Webber, Bonesword, Heavy Rock Drill, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Metamorph Claw, Metamorph Talon, Power Axe, Power Hammer, Power Maul, Power Pick. Hope you didn't glue any of your models with any of those things, because now they're only useful in power level games! GW decided that a regular flamer and a flamer with 18" range but only one single shot, those were basically the same level of usefulness right?
The Good: Units that actually seem to have more of a reason to exist than they did before under the new 9th ed rules.
1) Achilles Ridgerunners: They got about the average point nerf for 9th edition of ~20%, but can now move and shoot, which is fairly huge for them. With their handy +1 to wound stratagem, Achilles Ridgerunners (with specifically the auto-take loadout of Heavy Mining Laser and Flare Launcher) are looking quite solid going into 9th. Mobility is fairly strong, pregame movement is fairly strong, and people are most likely going to be taking more vehicles than they did before so vehicle-hunter units are looking good into the initial meta.
2) Goliath Trucks: Same reason as the Ridgerunners, really. Fairly modest point nerf, and for the points, a unit of Bladed Cog neophytes with 2x mining lasers mounted aboard a Goliath is one of our best ways to hold objectives for the new missions. You can perform the same job for cheaper with a unit of Brood Brothers mounted aboard a chimera, but you're giving up a lot of antitank firepower to do so, so that's a trade-off you'll have to figure out for yourself.
3) The Jackal Alphus: Probably the most improved HQ mostly because it doesn't seem like GSC can just rely on dropping in huge numbers of deep striking melee units and tabling their opponent to win the missions anymore. The Alphus can make your Goliaths and the squad inside hit on 3s (thanks to the wording of the open-topped rule and the fact her aura is a Modifier) and as a little cherry on top she can move and shoot her sniper rifle.
4) the Locus: Everybody's going to be taking a second look at units that have "always Fight First" abilities in 9th. S4 Ap-3 D2 on the charge makes him solid for attacking primaris marines, he's easier to hide than a minimum squad of acolytes if you want him to drop in and perform an action, and he costs exactly the same amount. I can definitely see including this dude in a list now.
5) Acolyte Squads (minimum size): Acolytes at max size and min size have always kind of been completely different units. The max size ones you drop them in, spend a ton of buffs and CP on them, and try to carve up a huge chunk of the enemy army. The min size ones historically you might throw in to a rockgrinder with some democharges as a bit of added threat, but in 9th you've got the removal of overwatch, secondary objectives that make tiny deep striking INFANTRY keyword units extremely annoying, and a point drop on Heavy Rock Saws that make it so a min squad of acolytes with 2x saws is only 1 single point more expensive than it was in 8th.
6) Atalan Jackals, maybe. Jackals and their wolfquad buddy did see pretty substantial point nerfs, 40% and 33% respectively. the thing that makes them possibly still worth looking into is the new missions, where mobility can allow you to score a ton of secondary points every turn, and the new Rusted Claw trait, which allows you to take both a shotgun and an autopistol and use them together after advancing with no penalty to hit. Min squads with Atalan incinerators, all the shotguns they can take and autopistols/autoguns on the sergeant put out pretty good anti-chaff firepower while absolutely screaming around the board.
General Listbuilding Strategies
I've tried out a couple styles of play so far, mostly involving vehicles since I have quite a few of them. I have a feeling you could probably do something with acolyte spam but I own 40x acolytes total unlike players with older competitive lists who own like 120+, so I can't test that.
Style 1: Extremely limited melee, guncult.
Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession
HQ: Magus 85, psychic powers: Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor
HQ: Primus 80.
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
1998 points.
This is a list with heavy scoring, screens that can drop onto the board, and just enough scattered threat to tie up unscreened Blast weapon units, assassinate characters, countercharge melee units, and provide enough of a credible threat that space marine armies aren't going to just wade into the center of the board with their primaris fists and start smacking you around. As someone who likes a tactical playstyle without a designated "Ok, here's the plan, all your CP expenditure is figured out in advance and all your big moves are already decided" this felt pretty good to play. Use your move and shoot heavy on everything to make sure your neophyte trucks are where they need to be, put a few squads of Brood Brothers into reserves to deep strike some screens in, and don't commit too hard to the ball around the Jackal Alphus that you aren't scoring as many points as possible: you still probably won't win a drag-out firefight with a full gun castle list.
Style 3: Hybrid melee/shooting with 1 big bomb
Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75. Warlord Trait: single minded Obsession
HQ: Primus 80
HQ: Magus 85, Familiar 15, Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor
Elites: Kelermorph 80, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Elites: Clamavus 65
Elites: Nexos 55
Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Cult HWT 18, 3x Mortars 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
2000 pts
This one exchanges a little bit of firepower for an alpha strike melee bomb that you can drop in and blow a huge chunk of CP on to ideally carve off a chunk of the enemy army and create a huge distraction while you rack up points turn 2/3. I think this is getting PRETTY close to optimized in terms of what GSC want to be doing in the new edition. Just like the last list, cult ambush means you dont' have to expose any infantry to antichaff firepower turn 1 unless your opponent cracks a transport, you still have the obnoxious 3++ kelermorph, and now you have more stuff to spend your CPs on rather than the last list where I was basically using command points on +1s to wound here or there.
Style 3: As yet untested, Unstoppable Jormungandr Genstealer Tanks
Cult of the Bladed Cog Battalion Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75
HQ: Patriarch 135, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession. Psychic Power: Might from Beyond
Starting this one with 9cp rather than 12cp, but ditching the deep strike bomb that requires 5CP to do its turn 1 thing, rather than building into an alpha strike this list builds an enormous, threatening brick of a unit of genestealers that is going to roll into the center of the board and require ABSURD firepower to remove if you can get it into cover and keep catalyst on it.
Thanks, very interesting read !
I am going to try a zoanthrope (3*6) + twisted H acolyte spam list, I'll post a list soon. MWs for the big stuff, Twisted H acos for the rest (they can also kill big stuff, just not as well). Assuming a zoanthrope unit can still ddouble smite
addnid wrote:The love from GW For Genestealers cult is feeling colder than the love of the incoming tyranid fleet that will devour all cultists at the end of the battle. Time to let the army rest in my cupboard until new codex drops
For what limited value it is worth, we did get a 4-page army on parade section in the new rulebook (the other two are Marines and they only get 2 pages) and the crusade section appears to have the GSC as the protagonists in the fluff bits which has to count for something.
In general it feels a lot like how things were when the index first dropped in 8th, but I think we are in a better position right now than we were at the start of 8th because most of our "core" stuff is still within reasonable pricing (remember, the Index incarnation had 11 point Acolytes) and I do think midfield battles will be more favorable for us than the gunline castles that dominated 8th. We aren't as bothered by going second as many other armies since it gives us perfect information for adjusting our deployment. I imagine we will see new builds develop that are not being predicted, especially if the new Space Marine codex reigns them in somewhat (have seen a couple promising signs).
I'll be updating the original post with new data, though I suppose the question now becomes should I create a new thread for 9th or continue focusing on retrofitting this one?
Edit: Couple random musings:
1. I am somewhat tempted to pull out the Demolition Trucks again. Both the cache and charges didn't go up and gained blast which makes them a bit more useful vs things like Necrons and Sisters of Battle, and movement no longer hinders the other truck weapon systems. Early on when the codex dropped I remember running two 5-strong Acolyte units with a charge each in a truck with a cache and doing drive-by bombings (since each one is its own squad, each gets to toss a charge, thus 3D6 S8 shots).
2. The melee Sanctus might deserve a second look between smaller boards, his free perfect ambush, and the advance-and-charge stratagem from the Greater Good.
3. With the new pricing and expected influx of 3 wound models, it might be worthwhile to run some Acolyte squads with Rock Cutters instead of saws. Trade some accuracy for increased killing power against Grotesques, Pain Engines, Tyranid Warriors/Monsters, Gravis, and so forth.
4. I don't think blast weapons will be as great an issue for us as they will be for some of the other more horde-leaning armies since we can keep vulnerable large units hidden in reserve until the main threats to them have been eliminated or thinned out. Use expendable MSU squads to sweep away threats and then drop in larger squads to hold gains.
5. On a somewhat related note, it might be worth playing with Shotgun Neophytes more in general. I liked them before, but now if one wants a "cheap" Neophyte squad they are the best bet since they don't need special or heavy weapons to do their job, just Lying in Wait and terrain. Bladed Cog shotgun squads with Seismic Cannons might be fun too, since both weapons want to be close for the added strength and 3-6 S6 D2 shots with rending and -1 AP will help vs Marines.
Could always do 10 acolytes with 4 demo charges in a truck and use extra explosives - with the cache that’s 5d6 4+ S8 -3 d3 shots, and ten acolytes + rigged to blow means that the enemy might be reluctant to pop it once it gets close
C4790M wrote:Could always do 10 acolytes with 4 demo charges in a truck and use extra explosives - with the cache that’s 5d6 4+ S8 -3 d3 shots, and ten acolytes + rigged to blow means that the enemy might be reluctant to pop it once it gets close
I think the 9th edition transport rules specifically forbid the use of stratagems on embarked squads. That being said, I like the second idea of Rigged to Blow. Might also be able to repurpose some of the hand-flamer Acolytes for those that were running bombs, since the range overlaps with demo charges if you happen to have something worth roasting while bombing.
Nitro Zeus wrote:What does the melee Sanctus actually accomplish ever? Haven’t used one
He gets 5 WS 2+ attacks that always wound non-vehicles, non-titanic models on a 2+ with -2 AP and 2 damage per blow, as well as 2 additional S4 familiar attacks. He also has a fair amount of mobility options between a free use of Perfect Ambush per turn and Slipping Through the Shadows for 6'' advance and charge. In theory, both stratagems working together gives him a turn 1 threat range of ~22'' out of an ambush token (average of 3'' from Perfect Ambush + 12'' from advance + 7'' charge), potentially more with Four-Armed Emperor or Twisted Helix which both add +2'' with their respective traits. Also I need to check the wording, but the Soul Sight familiar might now be able to benefit melee now as well, since it let him ignore cover to some degree.
I am considering playing around with the Tectonic Frag Drills as well. I don't imagine they will be amazing, but they don't cost command points to take anymore and the -2 to chargers within 12'' bubble might be useful against reserves coming from a flank and could be useful for defending an objective near friendly territory or sending backfield squads into the tunnels to reposition for late-game objective grabs. I think the drills get the industrial structure terrain rules as well, so they might be worthwhile for screening something important. Lastly, they have a bit of built-in defense against the 5'' vertical engagement for anyone hiding in them, since anyone on the ground floor risks potentially taking D6 mortal wounds each time the drill is triggered (or D6 + D3 when the earthquake triggers).
Had a really fantastic game yesterday with my gsc. Tried out the new grand tournament pack against some custom chapter raven guard (Master Artisans and +1 to Charge Rolls) and I played a list with a bladed cog mechanized core, a 20-man acolyte blob with Primus, Magus with MFB+Bladed Cog Catalyst Power, and Clamavus, with a locus and kelermorph in there as a bit of wildcard deep strike units. Then a tyranid patrol with broodlord with Catalyst and 20 man jormungandr genestealers with extended carapace and the Improved Resistance adaptation to ignore AP-1 / AP-2.
My opponent had 2x5 aggressors, 2x3 plasma inceptors, 2x5 infiltrators, 2x plasma redemptor dreads, 3 eliminators, 10x intercessors with bolt rifles, a smash captain, a sneaky sniper rifle captain, and a lieutenant with another relic sniper rifle.
We played a mission with diagonal deployment, 1 objective in each of our deployment zones, 4 objectives spread across the centerline. Mission 13 in the GT pack. My opponent chose the Kill Models, Kill Characters and Kill Psykers secondaries. I chose the mission-specific secondary (because it was an Action I could perform with non-infantry). engage on all fronts, and keep my 3 most expensive units alive because I had never tried that one. Those 3 units were a 10-man Jackal squad, 20 genestealers, and 20 acolytes.
I get to go first, and I rush forward and sit on 3 objectives on the centerline+my objective, and use Single Minded Devotion to kill one of the two dreadnoughts. All other miscellaneous firepower does a single wound to a single eliminator.
My opponent deals a wound or two to my achilles, and unloads a 1/2 shooting volley from the aggressors at the bikers. With morale this kills 7/10, leaving the sergeant and two quads, but they're still on the objective. Dreadnought shoots the genestealers with blast plasma and with morale kills 4. I had hid the jackal from LOS in the mess of Goliaths, so the broodlord tanked the sniper fire and only took 2 wounds.
This was a ruin heavy board using Ruins and Ruin Walls to make sure there was a good amount of dense cover and Obscuring+Light on the board. This seems like a pretty efficient setup for a good urban board and we felt like terrain really impacted the battle.
Round 2, I shoot the aggressors with everything I've got and kill 3/5, so the genestealers charge the dreadnought, fight twice to kill it, and pile in to the aggressors to tie them up, leaving only 3 alive at the end of the day but doing a good amount of work. The locus drops in to the very back of the battlefield to score me engage on all fronts and be annoying.
My opponent's turn 2, he had a hell of a lot in reserve (including 5 aggressors and 10 intercessors he used a strat to put there) and with my stuff starting to deep strike and spread out on the board very little good space to put them. Smash Captain+6 Inceptors drop in to my deployment zone behind my Goliaths and Broodlord, and 10 intercessors drop in basically right next to the original fire castle to benefit from the same Chapter Master+Lieutenant bubbles. One goliath and the broodlord die to plasma, and another goliath is left with 1 hit point and then survives shooting from a couple intercessors by making a pair of 6+ save rolls, so I decide he deserves to have me spend a command point on "Devoted Crew" next turn. The locus survives sniper fire by being out of LOS of half of them and making his 4++ saves vs the others.
Round 3, the acolyte bomb comes in against the inceptors and rockgrinder+Locus+All my remaining firepower kills 9/10 intercessors. The remaining 2 genestealers fall back to hide out of LOS and the remaining quads are also hiding on an objective performing the mission secondary objective action, so that's 2/3 of my most expensive squads I think I can keep alive.The Kelermorph lands and wipes out the Eliminators.
Opponent's turn 3, the aggressors land from deep strike and are now hanging out with the chapter master, who has used a move-then-shoot-then-move warlord trait to steadily bop across the board away from my stuff. With morale they kill all but 2 of the acolytes. The smash captain flies over to the trio of HQs who was buffing the acolyte blob and kills the clamavus and magus..
Round 4, the primus runs away from the chapter master and jumps into the back of the single-wound goliath truck as benny hill music plays.As much firepower as I can get around the ruin they're hiding behind shoots the aggressors and kills 2 of them, and then the pair of suicide saw acolytes manage to kill 2 more.
Opponent's turn 4, smash captain smashes the remainder of a neophyte squad off my DZ objective, the remaining aggressor goes and punches the jackal alphus to death to finish the Kill Characters secondary.
Final round, I flood objectives with 20 neophyte bodies to prevent the aggressor or warlord from scoring, and kill one of the infiltrator squads off an objective with goliaths and rockgrinder. My opponent scores 5 for primary and we call it there because he's basically maxed out his secondaries and would need to kill 9 models to score another point off Thin their Ranks, which he figures he can't do from where he's at. Game ends 55 to 78, a really extremely good game.
I learned this game that the benefit of new morale is HUGE. Morale absolutely 100% won me that game, and I think if you're bringing light infantry squads, you want squads defined by 2-3 special weapons (or 1 in the case of 5-man squads) because they absolutely will be able to use new morale to survive when in 8th they'd get finished off. obscuring terrain was the other big defining point of the game for me, both of us were able to use it pretty extensively and despite the smaller board size it really felt like good positioning mattered way more. I would be careful about over-relying on deep striking little gak units on to the board to score your points and secondaries, because we both almost accidentally screened out most of the board. I think the melee sanctus and locus both have very fun roles to play in being later turn deep strikers who bring a lot of scoring value to the table.
FYI "While We Stand We Fight" is 3 most expensive MODELS, not UNITS. Likely your Broodlord, Magus, and Primus would've needed to survive - which likely would've been better had you known that! Glad you had a good game
Yarium wrote: FYI "While We Stand We Fight" is 3 most expensive MODELS, not UNITS. Likely your Broodlord, Magus, and Primus would've needed to survive - which likely would've been better had you known that! Glad you had a good game
Ahhhh, I must have misread that. My bad! Actually, that probably would have been a terrible idea given that my opponent took secondaries focused around killing my characters.
Damn, I thought I'd found a fairly serviceable secondary to take vs marines. There really is no good one for fighting them at all.
I'll admit, I don't know how they work, but possibly.
I dunno, it's not like GSC is actually bad at secondaries, so I don't see the need to give up CP to bring in allies just to get a category of easier secondaries. It's just that the secondaries that revolve around countering a particular army construction are for countering:
1) Knights
2) Vehicle Spam
3) Character Spam
4) Psyker spam, but only if you have no psykers yourself... guess that's to make it feel better to not have any way to stop psykers from doing their psyking.
5) Model spam
6) supercheap MSU spam
MEQ armies generally do none of those things. They're MSU, but not MSU enough that it's easy to rack up a ton of unit kills like it could be against like drukhari or sisters spamming tons of 5-gal squads or tau with tons of drone units. And then they bring all their points in infantry bodies, but only enough to make Thin their Ranks worth like...4pts. Some SM armies might have enough characters to make killing characters worth it, but an average SM list I've seen has 3-4 characters, not enough to make Assassinate really great. And SM characters tend to be really hard to bring down.
This would be the same issue in a game against Custodes. I wonder whether bringing cheap 'nid psykers just to unlock the possibility of Mental Interrogation. But don't you have to take 3x Zoanthropes per unit minimum, and they aren't characters? That seems kinda crappy tbh given that you'd give up their whole turn just to try and do Mental Interrogation. What about BB Primaris Psyker+3x BB Astropaths?
I guess you could also go in dependent on mission-specific secondaries or be ready to try to go for a turn 2 warlord kill. But the fact that that stupid Phobos captain everyone makes their Chapter Master is immune to the kelermorph and basically immune to all melee deep strikers makes that hurt so much.
I'll admit, I don't know how they work, but possibly.
I dunno, it's not like GSC is actually bad at secondaries, so I don't see the need to give up CP to bring in allies just to get a category of easier secondaries. It's just that the secondaries that revolve around countering a particular army construction are for countering:
1) Knights
2) Vehicle Spam
3) Character Spam
4) Psyker spam, but only if you have no psykers yourself... guess that's to make it feel better to not have any way to stop psykers from doing their psyking.
5) Model spam
6) supercheap MSU spam
MEQ armies generally do none of those things. They're MSU, but not MSU enough that it's easy to rack up a ton of unit kills like it could be against like drukhari or sisters spamming tons of 5-gal squads or tau with tons of drone units. And then they bring all their points in infantry bodies, but only enough to make Thin their Ranks worth like...4pts. Some SM armies might have enough characters to make killing characters worth it, but an average SM list I've seen has 3-4 characters, not enough to make Assassinate really great. And SM characters tend to be really hard to bring down.
This would be the same issue in a game against Custodes. I wonder whether bringing cheap 'nid psykers just to unlock the possibility of Mental Interrogation. But don't you have to take 3x Zoanthropes per unit minimum, and they aren't characters? That seems kinda crappy tbh given that you'd give up their whole turn just to try and do Mental Interrogation. What about BB Primaris Psyker+3x BB Astropaths?
I guess you could also go in dependent on mission-specific secondaries or be ready to try to go for a turn 2 warlord kill. But the fact that that stupid Phobos captain everyone makes their Chapter Master is immune to the kelermorph and basically immune to all melee deep strikers makes that hurt so much.
Zoeys are not Characters, a Brood of three also gets cool warp lance smite stuff. A unit of three Zoeys, a Brood lord, and some Hiveguard could be a nice addition, not too expensive in points, or Dollars.I'd use Kronos to hose Phychers, and shoot better, or Jormangandr to use cover better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you could do a Jormangandr Broodlord to do a Ritual, and take three units of x5-6 Stealers with extended carapaces, or "regular" for acid maws, rending claws, and major cover bonus.
What are secondaries GSC armies should choose? Raise the Banners, linebreaker, engage on all fronts, repair teleport homer. seem like they are good. What about pierce the veil? Against an assault heavy or elite army where you can sneak in the back with a magus and neophyte squad to score repair teleport homer and linebreaker it might not be bad for a 145 point investment.
Resipsa131 wrote: What are secondaries GSC armies should choose? Raise the Banners, linebreaker, engage on all fronts, repair teleport homer. seem like they are good. What about pierce the veil? Against an assault heavy or elite army where you can sneak in the back with a magus and neophyte squad to score repair teleport homer and linebreaker it might not be bad for a 145 point investment.
I think the only reason a GSC army wants to rock psychic secondaries is if you're bringing in a Brood Brother AM patrol and slapping a couple Astropaths into your army.Then I think it's a viable secondary to take.
If you're a GSC player who owns a leman russ tank, taking him as a BB AM tank commander in a patrol with some BB infantry and a couple astropaths is worth 2cp in my opinion. Just to get a reliable 3rd secondary, a better tank like a Punisher or something, and maybe an officer to put some orders on your infantry squads.
Actually, I think that's a pretty solid mission focused ally detachment regardless of whether you bring the tank commander or not. 2cp to not have to worry about fitting the square peg of GSC units into the round hole of 9th ed missions sounds great to me.
Why not fill Chimera with reliable AT and more durable infantry. They still have obsec and can actually bully the objectives and crack enemy armor at range.
Why not fill Chimera with reliable AT and more durable infantry. They still have obsec and can actually bully the objectives and crack enemy armor at range.
Can scions go in a chimera? For some reason I thought they were limited to their fugly jeep thingies that wish they were goliath trucks.
I'm bummed we didn't get AM codex brood brothers rolled into one detachment. It definitely seemed too good to be true but all the 9th stuff stacked against the army from the start seemed too harsh for them to not throw GSC a bone of some sort.
Madjob wrote: I'm bummed we didn't get AM codex brood brothers rolled into one detachment. It definitely seemed too good to be true but all the 9th stuff stacked against the army from the start seemed too harsh for them to not throw GSC a bone of some sort.
TL;DR - if you take a GSC detachment made solely of Brood Brothers, you might be able to still do it.
EDIT: Okay, there could be a dissuading voice still coming, but it seems like this would work. Here's the breakdown:
Step 1: Take a GSC detachment and put a single Brood Brother unit from the GSC codex in it. I suggest a Brood Brothers Infantry Squad or Heavy Weapons Team. Then take the rest of the detachment using Astra Militarum stuff that replaces its Regiment with "Brood Brother". This is not you making up a Faction name in order to get around a restriction; this is you using a legit Regiment name. All units in this detachment now share a single Faction keyword; Brood Brothers.
Step 2: Take a Tyranid detachment.
Congrats. You can now have 3 Tank Commanders alongside 3 Exocrines, and you only need to pay CP costs for one of those detachments!
Madjob wrote: I'm bummed we didn't get AM codex brood brothers rolled into one detachment. It definitely seemed too good to be true but all the 9th stuff stacked against the army from the start seemed too harsh for them to not throw GSC a bone of some sort.
TL;DR - if you take a GSC detachment made solely of Brood Brothers, you might be able to still do it.
EDIT: Okay, there could be a dissuading voice still coming, but it seems like this would work. Here's the breakdown:
Step 1: Take a GSC detachment and put a single Brood Brother unit from the GSC codex in it. I suggest a Brood Brothers Infantry Squad or Heavy Weapons Team. Then take the rest of the detachment using Astra Militarum stuff that replaces its Regiment with "Brood Brother". This is not you making up a Faction name in order to get around a restriction; this is you using a legit Regiment name. All units in this detachment now share a single Faction keyword; Brood Brothers.
Step 2: Take a Tyranid detachment.
Congrats. You can now have 3 Tank Commanders alongside 3 Exocrines, and you only need to pay CP costs for one of those detachments!
By that logic you can take space marines in your GSC army by giving your cult <Ultra Marine>. After all, its a legit faction name.
The GSC codex clearly specifies how you get the Brood Brother keyword and it requires an AM detachment.
And while the rules let you ignore AM for the Army faction it does not give you permission to ignore the individual detachment rules which require units to share a Faction Keyword.
Madjob wrote: I'm bummed we didn't get AM codex brood brothers rolled into one detachment. It definitely seemed too good to be true but all the 9th stuff stacked against the army from the start seemed too harsh for them to not throw GSC a bone of some sort.
TL;DR - if you take a GSC detachment made solely of Brood Brothers, you might be able to still do it.
EDIT: Okay, there could be a dissuading voice still coming, but it seems like this would work. Here's the breakdown:
Step 1: Take a GSC detachment and put a single Brood Brother unit from the GSC codex in it. I suggest a Brood Brothers Infantry Squad or Heavy Weapons Team. Then take the rest of the detachment using Astra Militarum stuff that replaces its Regiment with "Brood Brother". This is not you making up a Faction name in order to get around a restriction; this is you using a legit Regiment name. All units in this detachment now share a single Faction keyword; Brood Brothers.
Step 2: Take a Tyranid detachment.
Congrats. You can now have 3 Tank Commanders alongside 3 Exocrines, and you only need to pay CP costs for one of those detachments!
I'm afraid this doesn't work as you are suggesting. While you can legally make a detachment where the only shared keyword is Brood Brothers, at that point it ceases to be a Genestealer Cults detachment (since not every unit has the faction keyword) and runs afoul of the restriction of needing a Genestealer Cults detachment for each Brood Brothers detachment.
The 9th edition detachment rules are also fairly straightforward. All units in a detachment need to share at least one faction keyword and all units in the army need to share one keyword. The Brood Brothers rule allows us to bypass this second rule by ignoring the non-Tyranid factions, but it doesn't allow us to ignore the first one.
I suppose as a playtest update, I was able to run a few games with my brothers and we determined that a pure ranged build doesn't work so well with the 9th edition objectives. Neglecting melee assets makes it harder to play the objectives and makes one very vulnerable to getting pinned in the deployment zone by infiltrating units and very fast units (tests involved Marine Infiltrators and Necron Scarabs). I do think hybrid lists are probably going to be the most viable option for the time being. Mix ranged infantry for holding objectives, assault infantry for clearing objectives, Ridgerunners for fire support, and bikes/'stealers for early aggression.
Most of my tests were with Hivecult. In all honesty, their trait is fairly nice with the mid-field dominance emphasis of the 9th edition mission set. Being able to leave combat and still shoot is a big deal, plus it makes moral less a bother as well.
2000 points and used goliath rockgrinders to ambush a deathguard plauge crawler. Being brazen with them seems to be the Key, using command points to destory the trucks whenever the reach 0 health is great. Plus remeber the stratigum that lets the rockgrinder inflict damage as normal regardless of how many wounds it took.
I had my first game of 9th yesterday. Nid and GSC vs Orks. 2000 points After end of turn 1 I had no CP left.
I was wondering if perhaps if I am the only one who feels that I will not have points to use a perfect ambush in 9th edition? Perhaps it is different in a pure GSC list.
Had quite a good game yesterday with a combined GSC and Nids list vs Iron Warriors, 1500 points, Mission: Shifting Front.
However, I don't think this game was at all representative of 9th generally for the following reasons:
1. we're still using 8th ed points as we don't have the field manual yet. (Alternatively waiting for Battlescribe to update...)
2. we're still allowing specialist detachments from Vigilus. However, these are only specifically disallowed in the GT pack, so in ordinary games of 9th you could still use them.
I ran the following list, which came out at 1500 points using old 8th ed points values:
Abominant - Warlord: Insidious Mindwyrm, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Jackal Alphus
Elites
2 x Aberrants (8 with picks, one hypermorph with stop sign)
Clamavus
Troops
4x Neophytes (10 man squads with 2 mining lasers and a grenade launcher in each)
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinels (3 with missile launchers)
Tyranids Patrol Detachment - Leviathan -2CP
HQ
Tyranid Prime (lashwhip & bonesword, deathspitter)
Troops
Tyranid Warriors (6 with deathspitters, 3 with venom cannons, all with scything talons)
In short, it's a big dumb aberrant list that I don't see surviving into 9th proper. That said, they still did an awful lot of work, and completely bulldozed an entire flank. Abominant was just fun to play - absolute wrecking ball, and Insidious Mindwyrm comboing with a clamavus gives a pretty respectable 7" charge distance for the aberrants. I know acolytes would have been more points efficient,
but I found the aberrants actually hit harder and he just didn't have enough firepower to deal with 18 aberrants plus a roided out abominant sweeping through his flank - especially when everything else was tied up in combat across the board.
Neos with mining lasers were incredibly swingy as usual. First turn they all missed or failed to wound his rhinos, while the cult sentinels all hit and wounded and nearly destroyed one! Second turn the mining lasers did a bit better, but not by much. The neophytes achieved more by actually charging his rhinos which had advanced onto objectives - by wrapping round the front he couldn't deploy his Iron Warriors close enough to completely sweep me off the objective. They all died by turn 3 of course, so I may need to bring bigger squads. The scout sentinels were useful for early objective grabbing, but they couldn't hold it and I reckon they're too pricey for what they offer.
My warriors were a bit of a disappointment sadly - had to charge them in to try and bully some marines off an objective, but with only scything talons they just weren't killy enough, and he had power fists to whittle me down. Need to equip them with boneswords next time...
Regarding secondaries, I went for Engage on All Fronts, Bring it Down (he had five rhinos and a helbrute), and Test their Lines (the mission specific one, which turned out to be a terrible choice as it required you to have at least 2 units within the enemy deployment zone BUT within 6" of two different battlefield edges - no way were my aberrants going to pop up just to sit in the corner all game!)
We only played until end of turn 3 as it was quite late, but at that stage it was 31 - 19 to the Cult! I think had it continued it really could have gone either way - he was set to get Linebreaker, and also had Assassinate and Thin Their Ranks so would have racked up more points from killing the jackal alphus and the tyranid prime (easily doable at that stage).
I think I need to be more careful in picking secondaries next time, I need to give my warriors more CC bite, and maybe spend less on neophyte weapons but more on bodies to hold down the board. Not sure I'd use quite so many aberrants again, but I love them and it was a right laugh when his chaos lord got KO'ed by a stop sign.
Niiai wrote: I had my first game of 9th yesterday. Nid and GSC vs Orks. 2000 points After end of turn 1 I had no CP left.
I was wondering if perhaps if I am the only one who feels that I will not have points to use a perfect ambush in 9th edition? Perhaps it is different in a pure GSC list.
What is your experience?
With my pure GSC lists I generally have had no trouble reserving 4 to use Perfect Ambush on one squad.
it's an ability you have to build your list around for sure. Don't put a unit of 5 demo charge bikers in there dependent on spending 4CP themselves if you want to perfect ambush a unit. nids are also pretty cp hungry as well.
Niiai wrote: I had my first game of 9th yesterday. Nid and GSC vs Orks. 2000 points After end of turn 1 I had no CP left.
I was wondering if perhaps if I am the only one who feels that I will not have points to use a perfect ambush in 9th edition? Perhaps it is different in a pure GSC list.
What is your experience?
With my pure GSC lists I generally have had no trouble reserving 4 to use Perfect Ambush on one squad.
it's an ability you have to build your list around for sure. Don't put a unit of 5 demo charge bikers in there dependent on spending 4CP themselves if you want to perfect ambush a unit. nids are also pretty cp hungry as well.
I was playing sv an Ork. 2 burna bombas started attacking my AT. 1 morkanaught with sparkly bits. Battlewagon with death roller T8 and full of nobz. They meet my line turn 2, he got first turn. I had to pour all my attacks into them. Some good range support from flashgits as well.
Here are where my CP went.
I started at 12. Had another detachement 2 CP. Outflanked pyrovores 1 CP. Enchanted warriors 1 CP.
Shoot twice with warriors (Hive guards where dead.) 2 CP Raking Fire 1 CP Overcharged Weaponry 1 CP Pathogenic Slime on Tyranifex 2CP
Re-roll hit 1 CP Re-roll wound in close combat 1 CP
That last re-roll from my hive tyrant was what killed the morkanaut. Perhaps I could have skipped on the raking fire and the re-rolls. Raking fire took out somebody who was on an objective. But saving 3 CP for A perfect ambush just seems very unusable in that situation.
I mean, sure, that's a circumstance where you'd want to be not using APA. in fact, knowing you're up against a hyperaggressive opponent, it could be worth deploying whatever unit you were going to APA on the board turn 1, since they'll get handed a free charge and they'll be useful as a screen.
I don't think this is APA being useless, I think it's just a case where you determined that it'd be more useful to go for a different tack with your command points because you were against a particular hyperaggressive style of opponent.
I've been making real games of it with my GSC, and had a strong win vs Astra Militarum the other day. Going to take the same list again tonight vs Space Marines and give it a real test. I won on the back of embracing our new NPC status. I took a ton of Troop squads, 3 Ridgerunners, 2 Demolition trucks, Chimera, and a core of GSC characters - Brigade detachment to fit the 10 units of Troops, Bladed Cog. Almost everything started on the table so that I was presenting a front of 6+ Inv, 6+ FnP (Iconward) bodies, and almost nothing in reserves (just 3 units of Acolyte Hybrids in reserves).
I ended up winning 95 to 55. I got the first turn, and just zoomed out to objectives, raising banners as much as possible. From there, I used transports and our 2CP "arrive outside of 3 inch" strat to just move-block my opponent and keep them in their deployment zone. My firepower was solely utilized to push back AM Infantry squads; didn't bother targeting his big beefy vehicles or 9-man Bullgryn unit at all. I was able to avoid the Bullgryn for a long time, and then he ended up charging while under Mass Hypnosis. I still lost my Locus and two Familiars protecting the Patriarch, but then the Patriarch was able to clean up the Bullgryn over the course of a couple turns.
I was nearly tabled by the end, but won on points.
Interesting, so you took troops on foot rather than mounting them up in Goliaths? I've actually really been enjoying the way Goliaths perform with troops mounting inside, so haven't tried a foot list, but I feel like it'd just get carved up by MEQ firepower at extreme range.
I do feel like Bladed Cog has the full package for 9th. Squads are a bit more durable on objectives with the 6++, move and shoot really helps when shifting Goliaths around to grab and contest, Single Minded Obsession lets your Ridgerunners+Goliaths bring down a single priority heavy target T1, the relic allows you to slip in a surprisingly durable wildcard like a Kelermorph or a knife Sanctus, and Overthrow lets you run a single squad of Acos in deep strike using APA to prevent enemy melee units charging in and having their way with the transports.
Other cults, I feel like I get a benefit for MSU deep strikers, or bikers, or this unit or that unit, but Cog I use every part of the buffalo and feel like it's a good solid buff to the whole list.
Bladed Cog is hands down the best in 9th. Literally every part of the buffalo like you said.
Heck even small perks like having a 4++ on the locus and Keller is pretty great just for gaining the +1 to invuln.
I do think the strategy of using lying in wait to just move block is hilarious. It's the reason I wanted some form of tank shock back in the game, I like big guns never tire but being able to picket line block massive battle tanks with GEQ is forever going to be idiotic. That said it's a great tactic for sure, and we kind of need to use what we can get.
Following up on secondaries I've found that Raise the Banners and Engage on all fronts is okay if you want to run MSUGSC. I tried running linebreaker, peirce the veil, and repair teleport homer and it just doesn't work because you can't sit back there against even the most aggressive midboard lists.
the_scotsman wrote: Interesting, so you took troops on foot rather than mounting them up in Goliaths? I've actually really been enjoying the way Goliaths perform with troops mounting inside, so haven't tried a foot list, but I feel like it'd just get carved up by MEQ firepower at extreme range.
Only because I have yet to own enough of them. Just bought two and finished painting them as of yesterday (with a Tim Horton's cup in the hands of one of them! Sudbury for the win!). I would've gladly run more if I had more, because I would see that as just helping do the plan even better still.
Resipsa131 wrote: Following up on secondaries I've found that Raise the Banners and Engage on all fronts is okay if you want to run MSUGSC. I tried running linebreaker, peirce the veil, and repair teleport homer and it just doesn't work because you can't sit back there against even the most aggressive midboard lists.
Just to make sure, I do not know if you are doing it, but I see a lot of people talk about raise the banners. Only one units from your army can do the same action per round. (Page 77 on the GT2020.) Is it not very hard to get a bunch of points of raise the banners?
Resipsa131 wrote: Following up on secondaries I've found that Raise the Banners and Engage on all fronts is okay if you want to run MSUGSC. I tried running linebreaker, peirce the veil, and repair teleport homer and it just doesn't work because you can't sit back there against even the most aggressive midboard lists.
Just to make sure, I do not know if you are doing it, but I see a lot of people talk about raise the banners. Only one units from your army can do the same action per round. (Page 77 on the GT2020.) Is it not very hard to get a bunch of points of raise the banners?
Raise the Banners has a special exception written into the Secondary itself that allows you to do the same action with multiple units in the same turn. It's a REALLY hard objective though; since any enemy unit getting close topples the banner. It's only useful if you either KNOW you can lock your opponent in, or if you want to create an extra incentive for your opponent to over-extend.
I think there's an exemption although once its done though you don't have to keep doing it on that objective marker. it was good versus a Cadian Gunline army that wanted me to take first turn so he could blow me off the middle of the map. I sat at home first turn and raised the banners on backline objectives and forced him to the middle of the field first. When I say its okay its not going to win the game but it provides a tool to force initiative by your opponent.
Raise the Banners has a special exception written into the Secondary itself that allows you to do the same action with multiple units in the same turn. It's a REALLY hard objective though; since any enemy unit getting close topples the banner. It's only useful if you either KNOW you can lock your opponent in, or if you want to create an extra incentive for your opponent to over-extend.
I agree with all of this, I think you can take it to force initiative by your opponent on round 1.
I did not know it overwrote the corw rules. That makes it a whole lot better though.
But what infantery units are you using to do it, or do you just race it turn 2? Or am I missing something. Bikes, units inside transports and sentinels can not do it.
I know nids have the move twice stratagem, as well as garcoyles moving 12.
I would really like for something to have the scout move and beeing infatery. Or just deploy onto the map. Perhaps rattlings have that? I do not wanne buy IG models though.
A bare bones acolyte squad that dies easily if your opponent shoots at it. Its not great but I also don't want to devote a ton of points to units performing actions.
Yeah, a min-sized Acolyte squad, or Neophyte Squad. A Nexos is particularly helpful with Actions since none of his abilities are Auras. Really any units whose main strength is being somewhere more than doing something, which unfortunately covers a large number of our units. Still, it's something.
Resipsa131 wrote: Following up on secondaries I've found that Raise the Banners and Engage on all fronts is okay if you want to run MSUGSC. I tried running linebreaker, peirce the veil, and repair teleport homer and it just doesn't work because you can't sit back there against even the most aggressive midboard lists.
Just to make sure, I do not know if you are doing it, but I see a lot of people talk about raise the banners. Only one units from your army can do the same action per round. (Page 77 on the GT2020.) Is it not very hard to get a bunch of points of raise the banners?
Raise the Banners has a special exception written into the Secondary itself that allows you to do the same action with multiple units in the same turn. It's a REALLY hard objective though; since any enemy unit getting close topples the banner. It's only useful if you either KNOW you can lock your opponent in, or if you want to create an extra incentive for your opponent to over-extend.
Its a bit harder then any unit getting close. They need to control the objective at the start of any phase. So for non-obsec units they need to wipe your troop squad on the objective, which granted isn't that hard with GEQ bodies but more then just getting close.
Yarium wrote: Yeah, a min-sized Acolyte squad, or Neophyte Squad. A Nexos is particularly helpful with Actions since none of his abilities are Auras. Really any units whose main strength is being somewhere more than doing something, which unfortunately covers a large number of our units. Still, it's something.
Unfortunately? That's honestly a thing I'm liking about GSC more than any of my other armies, it's trivially easy to get action-doers into my lists so I'm not dependent on my opponents not playing marines to deny me any killing secondary. Locus, min aco squad, Nexos, Sanctus with knife, brood bros, I love all these guys as little super el cheapo action do-er squads that can also go be reasonable in combat if there's no action to do. The locus especially has been MVP for me in that regard, he's repaired that Homer more than Marge Simpson at this point.
Had another game yesterday where my opponent wanted to run a bunch of tacticals, and we decided to try out the new old-marine rules with him running a purposefully fairly plain jane marine list. We went for +4pts per model on regular marine bodies, +8pts per model on terminator bodies. His list was Iron Hands, with a captain, lieutenant, assault cannon Razorbacks containing double Plasma tactical squads, a Vindicator, a Laspred, some Devastators, some Assault Marines, an ironclad and a regular dread, and some Tactical Termies. Super super classic old marines list, running with the extra wound but purposefully leaning in to weapons we knew wouldn't be changing.
I ran a Battalion of Bladed Cog:
Jackal Alphus (Single Minded)
Primus
Magus+Familiar (5+ FNP and Might from Beyond)
7x Jackals+1 Incinerator Quad, demo charge on the jackal sarge
2x Ridgerunners
5x Aberrants, 4 picks 1 Improvised
Locus
Kelermorph
Magus hopped in the Rockgrinder with the min acolytes, primus and 20x acos deep struck, everything else started on the board. During my opponent's deployment I was able to use obscuring terrain to stick basically everything I had out of LOS of the devastators, who my opponent deployed early.
I chose Bring it Down (plenty of opposing vehicles to max that), Engage on All Fronts and Repair Teleport Homer. We played a Hammer and Anvil mission on a board with a bunch of ruins and some of the Ryza Ruin Walls that we used as "Small Ruin Walls" to get dense cover on the board. My opponent chose Thin Their Ranks, Raise the Banners, and Assassinate.
I deployed the goliaths except for the flamer goliath and ridgerunners behind one building, and the flamer goliath, jackals and rockgrinders behind another building. He put a big parking lot in the middle of the board, dreads off to either side, devs and pred in the back. he won the roll to go first.
Devs had no good shot and ended up moving to shoot jackals, and a Razorback also got a shot on jackals, ending with only 1 biker, the quad, and the sarge left, which would become the quad and the sarge after morale. Laspred moved to shoot the rockgrinder with the magus in it and left it with 3 wounds. Most other vehicles popped smoke.
I'd specified the predator as single minded obsession target, and it hadn't popped smoke so the gunsy vehicles all rolled into the ruin to target that with the jackal, and it went down. The rockgrinders moved up with the injured one advancing and ending behind obscuring terrain with respect to most of the enemy army and the other one taking shots with the remainder of my firepower at the one Razorback that had shot instead of popping smoke, which also went down thanks to a lucky roll with a mining laser that dealt 6 damage with none of it being ignored. I also flung basically every heavy stubber at the devastators, which did end up killing one but it was the sergeant.
On my opponent's turn, he focused fire primarily on the rockgrinders, fully destroying the one he hadn't damaged with shooting and the squad and magus inside, and a dreadnought charged and destroyed the damaged one in assault, popping out the aberrants. Deep strikers came in but none successfully charged, the assault squad was now in my back corner though.
On my turn, the two heroic jackals moved in and popped close range firefight, rolling a great 4 hits with the demo charge to kill 3/5 of the assault marines. Locus dropped in way behind enemy lines and started repairing the homer while the kelermorph popped in next to him and shot up 3/4 of the remaining devs. My deep strikers came in, perfect ambushed, and made the multicharge into his Terminators and Vindicator, and my guns brought down a squad of marines that were trying to perform the center of the board action, the second dreadnought, and did some damage to a razorback. The Aberrants happily ate the dreadnought that had killed their Dozer Pal, and my opponent did interrupt with the terminators and kill 6 acolytes but with Overthrow the Oppressors they did kill the vindicator and 2 of the terminators.
On my opponent's turn, he disembarked basically all his units, moved his assault marines onto my backline objective, and basically dedicated his turn to killing my aberrants, acolytes, and a ridgerunner, but he has managed to score very few points at this point.
After that point the game basically just boiled down to "I used all the D2 shooting weaponry still left in my army to wipe out all the marine infantry, and I had more vehicles than he had so he couldn't hold objectives with the stuff he had left." He killed my other ridgerunner so basically I had the primus, the alphus, thekelermorph, the locus, and 4 goliaths running around headbutting razorbacks. Fairly low scoring game overall since neither of us got a lot of primary points, like 50 to 20 ish.
My overall impression is that post-W2 marines, D1 weapons just will not be worth anything and units will just be defined by the weapons they have that can whack a marine in a turn. incidental weaponry that you're required to take like stubbers, seismics at longer range, and autoguns to fill out neophyte squads will be plenty to bring down what little light infantry you face, and the purpose of bringing a squad should be what heavy weapons you bring with it. Between seismic+heavy seismic, rock saws, autocannons, the Kelermorph, the Locus, etc, I think we can bring plenty of flat 2/flat 3 to the table to get that done.
I found this podcast on GSC. 70 or 90 models aside, they talk about a list that I think sounds super cool.
However, I do not understand how to build the list. Can anybody help? The plan is to deepstrike 3 characters on an objective with 50 neophytes with mining lasers. And a gunslinger with shotgun nephytes to block the enemy inn.
But I have a hard time building the list theoretically. 50% of the points and the units have to start on the table. The list cna cheat a bit by having return to the shadows. But I am unsure if it is a legal list.
My current list could do it. Here's the dumbness that I'm currently trying (suggestions welcome, but this list is basically based on what I own, and I'm shy on some obvious things):
GSC Bladed Cog Brigade:
1x Patriarch
1x Primus
1x Iconward
2x 5-man Acolytes w/Mining weapons
3x 10-man Acolytes w/Mining weapons (1 w/banner)
4x 10-man Neophytes w/Mining weapons and special weapons
1x 9-man Brood Brother Infantry Squad w/Mortar & Grenade Launcher
1x Nexos
1x Locus
1x Kelermorph
3x 1-man Ridgerunners
1x Brood Brother Heavy Weapons Team (Lascannons)
2x Goliath Rock Grinders
Since my group plays with the massive 19 pieces of terrain on the table (lots of Obscuring and Dense terrain), I can honestly march units pretty effectively, and nearly the whole army is 6+ FnP, with all the infantry having at least a 6+ Inv. 4-Armed Emperor Willing we stop being one of the only 2 factions to not have their vehicles have traits, then the whole army can be 6++/6+++.
Here is the list Alex talked about the in menioned podcast.
This is the list he Described.
Note that he probably did make a msitake as the Patriarch should be in the Battalion Detachment, and the Iconward should be in the Patrol Dectahment to get an exstra CP.
If we do this this list uses these cp pregame:
Ekstra Patrol Dectachment -2 cp.
Ekstra Relic -1 cp.
Broodcoven -1 cp.
The Cults Psyke (upgrade psyker) -1 cp. Means we start in 7 cp in that case.
First detachement is bladed cog. Second detcahment is mixed. Rideruner and Alpha there are Hivecult. Sanctus and 5 man squad of acultes is 4 armed emperor. This unlocks Stratagem – Chilling Efficiency – 2CP for the riderunners, and Stratagem – A Plan Generations in the Making – 3CP. You do not need them unless in a very competetive setting. So far the list is in fact legal.
What I am unsure though is what you put into deepstrike reserves. My suggestion based in the podcast is this:
Magus 100
Iconward 60
Alpha (Bladed Cog) 75
Neophites mining lasers 1 80
Neophites mining lasers 2 80
Neophites mining lasers 3 80
Neophites mining lasers 4 80
Neophites mining lasers 5 80
Neophytes Shotgun (Pure Bladed Cog) 120
Kelle Morph 80
That is 835 points. Leaving 165 for a flex slot. My thoughts of this is down here.
You can not fit the Rocksaw group into that (as it is 190 points.) Mind you this is an asumption of mine. But Alex speaks about deepstriking 60 Neophites so I gues he sometimes drop Neophite mining laser squad 5 to include the Rocksaw group.
If you do not deepstrike the rocksaws, you can deepstrike the second shotgun squad (120) and 4-armed emperor 5 man squad of 5 acolytes (40 points.)
With two lying in wait stratagems (turn 2 and 3) your essential has a plan for 9 of your CP. Leaving 6 out of the 17 you get thorugh the game.
If you deepstrike the rocksaws and want to use a perfect ambush stratgagem you have a plan for 8 of your CP. Leaving 7 out of the 17 you get through the game.
...can you take SIX heavy rock saws in what looks like a 15 man acolyte squad? Damn, I did not realize that, I thought they capped out at 4 per squad good lord.
The list seems interesting, I think definitely it's a counter-meta list because EVERYONE will be teching to take down W2 marines if they aren't already doing that. I think the only thing I'd worry about is...well, that, S3 firepower is super inefficient for dealing with marines and they typically only have like 3 vehicles in their lists,and you have 10+6d3 lascannon shots and basically just the Kelermorph designed to take down MEQs.
I wonder what the Magus is going to be doing, since he seems to have Undying Vigor but the Acolytes are not in the same cult as him.
The 6 ridrunners and 2. alfa are Hive Cult. The 5 man squad of hybrids and sanctus are 4 armed emperor. The rest is stil BC. While they do not get their bonus save, they do stil have the keyword. And thus can be targeted for psykick powers.
I am stil very sceptical for having points to use all the fansy stratagems you get from splitting like that.
Niiai wrote: You missunderstand. Only 5 units are not in BC.
The 6 ridrunners and 2. alfa are Hive Cult. The 5 man squad of hybrids and sanctus are 4 armed emperor. The rest is stil BC. While they do not get their bonus save, they do stil have the keyword. And thus can be targeted for psykick powers.
I am stil very sceptical for having points to use all the fansy stratagems you get from splitting like that.
Niiai wrote: When you start counting in the CP, and consider you max get +1 to hit I do not think so. But this Alex says it was a good list.
Yeah, I just don't know. I question the utility of not just splitting the patrol into a detachment of CTFAE, and I just do not think the average opponent will have enough stuff you need to shoot lascannons at to make THAT many mining lasers worth it.
This reads to me like a list made by someone who read what the best 3 units were and just decided to throw them on the table. Or it reads like an 8th ed list, where you could have like 18cp pretty easily. You're going to want...
-Chilling Efficiency, Ridgerunners
-A perfect Ambush+Overthrow, Acolytes
-Lying in Wait, 20x Neophytes (I assume they're being used as a block/screen here, stringing them across the board in front of enemy units 3" away)
-Plan Generations in the Making
11CP you're absolutely going to want to use, and you start with 7. That's veeery little wiggle room.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, why do people seem to think Goliaths are a bad get for 85pts? Autocannons are pretty hot rn in the world of 2w marines everywhere, and Open Topped with their speed means you can use Seismic instead of Mining if you want.
I made a statement during the 2nd half of 8th ed.
"imma play the hell outta GSC during 9th"
Man, how it's hard to stick with my own thoughts!
Anyway I have already a few match under my belt and I can say that I think to have found the correct list to play competitively with our beloved miners.
I made a statement during the 2nd half of 8th ed.
"imma play the hell outta GSC during 9th"
Man, how it's hard to stick with my own thoughts!
Anyway I have already a few match under my belt and I can say that I think to have found the correct list to play competitively with our beloved miners.
I made a statement during the 2nd half of 8th ed.
"imma play the hell outta GSC during 9th"
Man, how it's hard to stick with my own thoughts!
Anyway I have already a few match under my belt and I can say that I think to have found the correct list to play competitively with our beloved miners.
Niiai wrote: You actually pull of psykick ritual? Is not that really hard?
Actually not so hard, you have 5 round in order to do that and it's not impossible.
Also remember that as of RAW your familiar can do psychic actions
The unit takes the action, not a model. And as a model the familiar wouldn't be able to do it since it doesn't have the Psyker keyword.
Please read carefully the manual, it's stated that units with different profiles and keywords get ALL the keyword as a unit.
And so it's bettere to perform the ritual with the familiar to avoid perils
Yes. Actions can only be taken once per turn. Actions ae on page 77 in the GT2020. There are exeptions like Raise the Banners, the exeption is in the text.
Also, from the FAQ:
"Q: Does the Psychic Ritual psychic action need to be completed by
the same unit three times in order for you to score victory points
for the Psychic Ritual secondary objective, or can it be completed
by different units?
A: This Psychic action must must be completed three times by
the same unit in order for you to score the victory points."
I am not saying it is impossible. I just considered it though in the list above. But I have not tryed it out. If it is easy I am very intrigued.
Alex claimed that he cna pull it of with the list I posted earlier. Come turn 2 he just parks 3 characters, 50 neophytes in the middel. And have the shotgun group 3" away from the enemy, baricading them in. Now I can not verify this claim. But I can se it plausible vs certain lists. Sertanly eays if the opponent has a gunline.
Niiai wrote: You actually pull of psykick ritual? Is not that really hard?
Actually not so hard, you have 5 round in order to do that and it's not impossible.
Also remember that as of RAW your familiar can do psychic actions
The unit takes the action, not a model. And as a model the familiar wouldn't be able to do it since it doesn't have the Psyker keyword.
Please read carefully the manual, it's stated that units with different profiles and keywords get ALL the keyword as a unit.
And so it's bettere to perform the ritual with the familiar to avoid perils
Even if you perform it with the familiar, which...I guess, the whole unit has to give up their psychic powers in order to do it.And, if the familiar perils's, he will immediately pop and cause another d3 mortal wounds to his attendant psyker buddy and everyone within 6", no?
As to your list, strategically, I am curious about a few things.
1) 60 points of saws in the hand flamer unit, huh? I think the hand flamer combo is still maybe a valid choice in a meta heavy with horde opponents, which mine is not, but that does seem like an awful lot of expenditure on a unit I would definitely not assume is going to survive the turn it takes for them to be allowed to charge.
2) 4 demo charges on the bike squad? I usually roll with 1, since only 1 model in the unit can use it at a time, and generally, it's just there to amp up the threat of the unit so that they can threaten enough for my opponent to target them instead of my Goliaths and ridgerunners that are pumping out firepower
3) Iconward, and clamavus - seems like you're going to try and charge from 8" away rather than going for A Perfect Ambush? If it were me running this, I would probably not be running the iconward unless I had Neophytes rolling on foot, even with the Icon I dont usually find him to be worthwhile with just acolytes deep striking in. I would run the acolytes as a single block of 20 (plus the hand flamer dudes on the side as a second unit) and just go in with the assumption theyll be using A Perfect Ambush, and i'd sub out the iconward for a nexos. If you were feeling cheesy, you could run the second patrol detachment as mixed so that the Nexos could be "Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor" model, and he could sit at the back of the map enabling you to use "A plan generations in the making" to block a key strat.
Niiai wrote: You actually pull of psykick ritual? Is not that really hard?
Actually not so hard, you have 5 round in order to do that and it's not impossible.
Also remember that as of RAW your familiar can do psychic actions
The unit takes the action, not a model. And as a model the familiar wouldn't be able to do it since it doesn't have the Psyker keyword.
Please read carefully the manual, it's stated that units with different profiles and keywords get ALL the keyword as a unit.
And so it's bettere to perform the ritual with the familiar to avoid perils
Using the familiar saves you 1 wound on the other character since the unit suffers d3 mortals and mortals carry over.
Nor does it let the character cast other powers since the unit gives up casting any power to do the action.
I'm not seeing the sauce here. You gain practically nothing.
Niiai wrote: You actually pull of psykick ritual? Is not that really hard?
Actually not so hard, you have 5 round in order to do that and it's not impossible.
Also remember that as of RAW your familiar can do psychic actions
The unit takes the action, not a model. And as a model the familiar wouldn't be able to do it since it doesn't have the Psyker keyword.
Please read carefully the manual, it's stated that units with different profiles and keywords get ALL the keyword as a unit.
And so it's bettere to perform the ritual with the familiar to avoid perils
Even if you perform it with the familiar, which...I guess, the whole unit has to give up their psychic powers in order to do it.And, if the familiar perils's, he will immediately pop and cause another d3 mortal wounds to his attendant psyker buddy and everyone within 6", no?
As to your list, strategically, I am curious about a few things.
1) 60 points of saws in the hand flamer unit, huh? I think the hand flamer combo is still maybe a valid choice in a meta heavy with horde opponents, which mine is not, but that does seem like an awful lot of expenditure on a unit I would definitely not assume is going to survive the turn it takes for them to be allowed to charge.
2) 4 demo charges on the bike squad? I usually roll with 1, since only 1 model in the unit can use it at a time, and generally, it's just there to amp up the threat of the unit so that they can threaten enough for my opponent to target them instead of my Goliaths and ridgerunners that are pumping out firepower
3) Iconward, and clamavus - seems like you're going to try and charge from 8" away rather than going for A Perfect Ambush? If it were me running this, I would probably not be running the iconward unless I had Neophytes rolling on foot, even with the Icon I dont usually find him to be worthwhile with just acolytes deep striking in. I would run the acolytes as a single block of 20 (plus the hand flamer dudes on the side as a second unit) and just go in with the assumption theyll be using A Perfect Ambush, and i'd sub out the iconward for a nexos. If you were feeling cheesy, you could run the second patrol detachment as mixed so that the Nexos could be "Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor" model, and he could sit at the back of the map enabling you to use "A plan generations in the making" to block a key strat.
The unit has to die for the perils explosion. So just the familiar dying won't make it go pop.
you use the extra explosives stat on the bikes to let them throw up to 5 demo charges at once.
The Acolytes are 4AE so they go for 7" charges where are decently reliable. Less so now that we lost the free re-roll from Vigilus.
I'm not sold on the Iconward without Vigilus but the +1 str relic banner is still good in a world full of t4/5.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
I missed that the whole second detachment was 4ae, I thought it was also bladed cog, so, that critism for sure is gone for me. Also if I came off rude I apologize, I was in no way trying to be rude, just curious about some elements of the list I would not personally go for, and wondering what the logic behind them was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it seems I did miss the change from 8e where I believe if "the caster" died from casting a psychic power, then the explosion occurred. This was a big problem with rubric squads, because only the aspiring sorc got the keywrod and therefore his 1 wound butt and a CP reroll was the only thing standing between you and losing 2d3 rubrics from any peril.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
I missed that the whole second detachment was 4ae, I thought it was also bladed cog, so, that critism for sure is gone for me. Also if I came off rude I apologize, I was in no way trying to be rude, just curious about some elements of the list I would not personally go for, and wondering what the logic behind them was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it seems I did miss the change from 8e where I believe if "the caster" died from casting a psychic power, then the explosion occurred. This was a big problem with rubric squads, because only the aspiring sorc got the keywrod and therefore his 1 wound butt and a CP reroll was the only thing standing between you and losing 2d3 rubrics from any peril.
I felt no rudeness against me.
I'm giving you a mixed answer as my line of thoughts.
The iconward is useful in deep strike for the bonuses it provides (having str5 is a massive swing in giving the hurt, also saws instagib dg termies on 2+) and on top you have the 6+++ as icing on the cake.
The flamer bomb is useful not only against hordes but also against MSU: deep strike at 3" and then use 15d6 autohit flamers, if something survives you can face the charge or cast fight last with your psychic spells.
As for the familiar the nice thing is that it can provide more "base size" sort of speak for your magus in order to be close to the center of the battlefield.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
I missed that the whole second detachment was 4ae, I thought it was also bladed cog, so, that critism for sure is gone for me. Also if I came off rude I apologize, I was in no way trying to be rude, just curious about some elements of the list I would not personally go for, and wondering what the logic behind them was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it seems I did miss the change from 8e where I believe if "the caster" died from casting a psychic power, then the explosion occurred. This was a big problem with rubric squads, because only the aspiring sorc got the keywrod and therefore his 1 wound butt and a CP reroll was the only thing standing between you and losing 2d3 rubrics from any peril.
I felt no rudeness against me.
I'm giving you a mixed answer as my line of thoughts.
The iconward is useful in deep strike for the bonuses it provides (having str5 is a massive swing in giving the hurt, also saws instagib dg termies on 2+) and on top you have the 6+++ as icing on the cake.
The flamer bomb is useful not only against hordes but also against MSU: deep strike at 3" and then use 15d6 autohit flamers, if something survives you can face the charge or cast fight last with your psychic spells.
As for the familiar the nice thing is that it can provide more "base size" sort of speak for your magus in order to be close to the center of the battlefield.
Please, just stop.
+1 Strenght relic from Iconward is pure $h!t due to coherency changes AND the x2 weapon modifiers: you're losing attacks AND efficiency compared to 8th, rendering the model extremely useless for all offensive acolyte purposes.
Also you should first mathammer your 15D6 S3 flamers shot before you realize how many points and CPs (at least 2, sometimes 5 if you want to double shoot) you are actually spending to kill at best 1/4 of your points cost whilst being death sentenced next turn.
you use the extra explosives stat on the bikes to let them throw up to 5 demo charges at once.
yep, I get that, I just don't know if it's reliable enough for me to get that off that I would invest the 50 points into the squad. 1 demo charge plus 1 incinerator makes the squad a reasonable threat to a min marine squad (especially with the new stratagem they can use) while still staying cheap enough that you're mostly shooting at 14pt bodies that have -1 to hit.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
I missed that the whole second detachment was 4ae, I thought it was also bladed cog, so, that critism for sure is gone for me. Also if I came off rude I apologize, I was in no way trying to be rude, just curious about some elements of the list I would not personally go for, and wondering what the logic behind them was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it seems I did miss the change from 8e where I believe if "the caster" died from casting a psychic power, then the explosion occurred. This was a big problem with rubric squads, because only the aspiring sorc got the keywrod and therefore his 1 wound butt and a CP reroll was the only thing standing between you and losing 2d3 rubrics from any peril.
I felt no rudeness against me.
I'm giving you a mixed answer as my line of thoughts.
The iconward is useful in deep strike for the bonuses it provides (having str5 is a massive swing in giving the hurt, also saws instagib dg termies on 2+) and on top you have the 6+++ as icing on the cake.
The flamer bomb is useful not only against hordes but also against MSU: deep strike at 3" and then use 15d6 autohit flamers, if something survives you can face the charge or cast fight last with your psychic spells.
As for the familiar the nice thing is that it can provide more "base size" sort of speak for your magus in order to be close to the center of the battlefield.
Please, just stop.
+1 Strenght relic from Iconward is pure $h!t due to coherency changes AND the x2 weapon modifiers: you're losing attacks AND efficiency compared to 8th, rendering the model extremely useless for all offensive acolyte purposes.
Also you should first mathammer your 15D6 S3 flamers shot before you realize how many points and CPs (at least 2, sometimes 5 if you want to double shoot) you are actually spending to kill at best 1/4 of your points cost whilst being death sentenced next turn.
Versus what I can only imagine is the worst target available, new W2 tactical marines, 15d6 S3 flamer autohits do kill 52.4pts, a bit more than a 1/3 points return. They return 77.6% of their points if you get them up against ork boyz.
There does seem to be a consensus that a large block squad even with new coherency is useful for stopping enemy momentum in the new missions, the only question is whether it's better to go for something like the 150pt acolyte hand flamer squad or something like a 120pt neophyte shotgun squad. I'd imagine with the 32mm vs 25mm bases the footprint of either would be relatively similar, the CP cost is obviously the same, while the points return on the hand flamers is almost always better as a percentage of the unit's cost. Shotguns return 25% of their points vs new 18pt tacticals (to demonstrate a realistic "worst case") and 55% against Ork Boyz (to demonstrate a realistic "best case" of units that seem to actually exist in the current meta)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do tend to agree about the +1S banner though, I dont rate it as worth a relic slot.
It gives you a wound shift against T8 vehicles only, really, now that it moves acos from S8 to S9 instead of what it used to do, S8 to S10.
I think the iconward can have a place in a list, I just think it has to be a walking neo list and no relic, where he's really a "might as well" alongside the obvious jackal alphus.
you use the extra explosives stat on the bikes to let them throw up to 5 demo charges at once.
yep, I get that, I just don't know if it's reliable enough for me to get that off that I would invest the 50 points into the squad. 1 demo charge plus 1 incinerator makes the squad a reasonable threat to a min marine squad (especially with the new stratagem they can use) while still staying cheap enough that you're mostly shooting at 14pt bodies that have -1 to hit.
Charging from 9" away with 4 armed amperor and clavmagus means a 7" charge. That is the averadge in the dice, and with a CP re-roll charge ii is quite doable.
Also, the demo charge bikes have a stratagem ( Extra Explosives (1 CP) ) to throw all of them. That is an old and well used trick. Often combined with lying in wait to get the range from deep strike.
What is nice with this list is they save on CP with the clavmagus and the 4 armed emperor so you do not have to use a perfect ambush.
I missed that the whole second detachment was 4ae, I thought it was also bladed cog, so, that critism for sure is gone for me. Also if I came off rude I apologize, I was in no way trying to be rude, just curious about some elements of the list I would not personally go for, and wondering what the logic behind them was.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it seems I did miss the change from 8e where I believe if "the caster" died from casting a psychic power, then the explosion occurred. This was a big problem with rubric squads, because only the aspiring sorc got the keywrod and therefore his 1 wound butt and a CP reroll was the only thing standing between you and losing 2d3 rubrics from any peril.
I felt no rudeness against me.
I'm giving you a mixed answer as my line of thoughts.
The iconward is useful in deep strike for the bonuses it provides (having str5 is a massive swing in giving the hurt, also saws instagib dg termies on 2+) and on top you have the 6+++ as icing on the cake.
The flamer bomb is useful not only against hordes but also against MSU: deep strike at 3" and then use 15d6 autohit flamers, if something survives you can face the charge or cast fight last with your psychic spells.
As for the familiar the nice thing is that it can provide more "base size" sort of speak for your magus in order to be close to the center of the battlefield.
Please, just stop.
+1 Strenght relic from Iconward is pure $h!t due to coherency changes AND the x2 weapon modifiers: you're losing attacks AND efficiency compared to 8th, rendering the model extremely useless for all offensive acolyte purposes.
Also you should first mathammer your 15D6 S3 flamers shot before you realize how many points and CPs (at least 2, sometimes 5 if you want to double shoot) you are actually spending to kill at best 1/4 of your points cost whilst being death sentenced next turn.
Versus what I can only imagine is the worst target available, new W2 tactical marines, 15d6 S3 flamer autohits do kill 52.4pts, a bit more than a 1/3 points return. They return 77.6% of their points if you get them up against ork boyz.
There does seem to be a consensus that a large block squad even with new coherency is useful for stopping enemy momentum in the new missions, the only question is whether it's better to go for something like the 150pt acolyte hand flamer squad or something like a 120pt neophyte shotgun squad. I'd imagine with the 32mm vs 25mm bases the footprint of either would be relatively similar, the CP cost is obviously the same, while the points return on the hand flamers is almost always better as a percentage of the unit's cost. Shotguns return 25% of their points vs new 18pt tacticals (to demonstrate a realistic "worst case") and 55% against Ork Boyz (to demonstrate a realistic "best case" of units that seem to actually exist in the current meta)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do tend to agree about the +1S banner though, I dont rate it as worth a relic slot.
It gives you a wound shift against T8 vehicles only, really, now that it moves acos from S8 to S9 instead of what it used to do, S8 to S10.
I think the iconward can have a place in a list, I just think it has to be a walking neo list and no relic, where he's really a "might as well" alongside the obvious jackal alphus.
Thanks, someone who get how things are laid out and is not crying
So lets talk about the possibility of a foot list a bit. I think there's a bit more discussion to be had on that vs on a mechanized list, where really your only option in my opinion is the bladed cog cult.
Grant for the moment the assumption that any and all melee units we'll be taking in a separate patrol of CTFAE to get our hands on Plan and the +2" to charge with the clamavus.
What do you go for for your shooting cult?
Seems like a number of good options.
Rusted Claw: Pros, durability-based in a durability based edition. Makes you bikes better, and bikes synergize quite nicely with a foot list having similar defensive profiles and being cheap enough that heavy firepower still loses almost all its efficiency. Cult specific psychic power is good. Stratagem is still decent on a bike squad though reduced in effectiveness from what it once was.
Cons: With the current space marine meta you run into a lot of spammed AP-2 with Tactical Doctrine Bolt Rifles, any of those you come across would have to be target numero uno.
Hivecult:
Pros, you get some mileage out of 3 parts of the creed, the warlord trait, both parts of the trait, and the strat are both very solid. Fall back and shoot can be handy, you're unlikely to get a ton out of it, but it's nice with Flamers which are about to get a very nice buff going to 12" range.
Cons: useless relic, useless power. For all the fun of making your models 2+ rerollable to hit, it drops off after killing exactly 1 unit. A LOT of your power is lose your Jackal Alphus if she's also the warlord, meaning you probably want to make an iconward the warlord instead, so you want to have both. Not quite as durable as Claw, I would say probably more durable vs most things than Cog because your opponent needs to be pumping AP-2 into neophytes for Cog to matter defensively.
Workers Arisen+Armor Piercing Ammunition.
Pros: If you're not playing with the asinine "you get literally none of the rules on your units if you fire out of an open topped transport" ruling, this is the absolute most offense you can pack into mounted up neophytes in trucks. Reroll hits with -1 to hit on the move is actually better than hitting normally (55% vs 50%) and with a +1 to hit from an alphus you get to 75% instead of 66%, very nice on the heavy weapons, and -1AP on all your Autoguns, that can actually be a lot of shots and it almost never doesn't give you returns.
Cons: No strat, no trait, no relic, no power, so make sure your list setup doesn't miss any of those things. Spending 2CP on a patrol of CTFAE instead of bringing your Aco bomb along in the main detachment? Congrats, now you don't need Overthrow or Vigor. Taking all buffed up neo squads in goliaths instead of Goliaths+Ridgerunners? The impact of losing Single Minded is lessened somewhat.
Bladed Cog: Seems to be the standard even with foot lists, I think we know generally what this is bringing to the table and it's not a bad deal, so I'll refrain from going into this save to say that I'm not convinced that it's ALWAYS the best choice for a foot list.
The list i posted hiegher up by alex is a foot list with the exception of 6 ridge runners.
The problem with the 'pure' footlist is trefold.
- Our ranged anti tank weapons are locked in in heavy wepaon teams witch we can take a maximum of 3 of. We can also get some in the form of Bloodbrother guardsmen. Neither benefits for characters bonuses.
- So many of our units are overpriced. Abberants, Methamorphs and Purestrained are almost excluded from the get go. Not a big deal as our Acolyte we a good option for all posabilaties.
- Your assumtion that we would need melee units in a pure 4AE is a flaved asuption. We are bleeding for CP, so it is not nessasseraly a need for more units.
Also, if you turn the knob of Neophyte with mining weapons really high then the custon creed of ignoring heavy weapon penalty and re-rolling to hit becomes a real posabilaty. (Workers Arisen: Reroll the hit roll for any Heavy Mining weapons. Seasoned Enforcers: INFANTRY models ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Half of the Bladed Cog creed. Good when combined with Workers Arisen.) Mostly you loose out on bladed cog 6++ and psyick power. Re-rolling mining lasers is good. If you can start realiably delete something that is really sweet. One squad is 80. If your list (and wallet) supports 10 such units you have 800 points for 20 mining lasers. Re-rolling to hit becomes relaly good at that point. Furthermore, there are other units that can have these as well. Mostly the Wolfquads.
Would have to be a serius consideration under a 4AE split list. And having 4AE with clavmagus charge can help on the CP bleeding.
The custom +1 AP custom cult on Auto weapons seems weak. (Armor Piercing Ammunition: Stubber and Auto- weapons gain -1AP at half range or less.) They are not good to begin with.
I've had 3 games with a solid foot list, gone first 3 times, and won 3 times.
Game 1 vs Guard
Game 2 vs Ultramarines (3x 3 Aggressors, 3x Impulsors, Calgar, 3x 5 Plasma Primaris, 3x Intercessors w/Assault guns, Captain+Lieutenant)
Game 3 vs Iron Hands (3x 3 Eradicators, 1x 4-man Aggressor, 2x Primaris Dreads, 2x Bladeguards, 2x 5-man Assault Intercessors, 1x 5-man Intercessors w/Heavy guns, +1 to hit Techmarine, Judicar, Chaplain, Captain, Relic Sicaran)
The foot list is no joke. You kill almost nothing, block your opponent's movement options, and then win. Usually they're 25-30 primary points, and 35-40 secondary points. I'm 45 primary points and 35-40 secondary points. I've ended every game either board wiped or just about, and they're ended their games with slightly over or under 50% losses (Iron Hands lost only 3 units, so under 25% losses).
I have NOT gone second yet, and it really is hard to clear enemies off objectives with the list (though I do think the list can clear scouting units off an objective turn 1), but the battle plan is ridiculously simplistic. Ground-based enemies have almost no hope of beating you. The Ultramarines were a tough fight because of the Impulsors, but really, I never cared if I lost units or not. So long as my second wave was out of line of sight or not on the table, my opponent's would just kill whatever was blocking them with EASE.
The list i posted hiegher up by alex is a foot list with the exception of 6 ridge runners.
The problem with the 'pure' footlist is trefold.
- Our ranged anti tank weapons are locked in in heavy wepaon teams witch we can take a maximum of 3 of. We can also get some in the form of Bloodbrother guardsmen. Neither benefits for characters bonuses.
- So many of our units are overpriced. Abberants, Methamorphs and Purestrained are almost excluded from the get go. Not a big deal as our Acolyte we a good option for all posabilaties.
- Your assumtion that we would need melee units in a pure 4AE is a flaved asuption. We are bleeding for CP, so it is not nessasseraly a need for more units.
Also, if you turn the knob of Neophyte with mining weapons really high then the custon creed of ignoring heavy weapon penalty and re-rolling to hit becomes a real posabilaty. (Workers Arisen: Reroll the hit roll for any Heavy Mining weapons. Seasoned Enforcers: INFANTRY models ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons. Half of the Bladed Cog creed. Good when combined with Workers Arisen.) Mostly you loose out on bladed cog 6++ and psyick power. Re-rolling mining lasers is good. If you can start realiably delete something that is really sweet. One squad is 80. If your list (and wallet) supports 10 such units you have 800 points for 20 mining lasers. Re-rolling to hit becomes relaly good at that point. Furthermore, there are other units that can have these as well. Mostly the Wolfquads.
Would have to be a serius consideration under a 4AE split list. And having 4AE with clavmagus charge can help on the CP bleeding.
The custom +1 AP custom cult on Auto weapons seems weak. (Armor Piercing Ammunition: Stubber and Auto- weapons gain -1AP at half range or less.) They are not good to begin with.
What I'm envisioning is the possibility of running a custom creed (as you said move+shoot heavy and reroll heavy) or possibly, -1AP on autoguns and reroll heavy. What you could do is take a detachment of brood brothers to get some astra militarum buddies, and actually deep strike the neophyte squads right into 12" range. That would allow you to use Seismic instead of Mining, which IMO is actually a bit better into the current meta of lots of W2/W3 marine type stuff.
The brood bros then get to have orders because you took some company and platcoms, and could be an extremely effective countermeta list against everyone teching vs vehicles/elites.
That's something I've already noticed with people running lists that are nothing but Ghaz+Boyz: They win because NOBODY is bringing antihorde weaponry. nobody. If your whole list is just bodies bodies bodies with min bike squads with HMLs, neo squads with Autogun+Seismic, and Brood Bro squads with commanders for orders maybe plasma guns maybe just naked, and your opponent comes ready to fight marines with tons of d3/flat 2 damage weaponry it's just gonna be a nightmare.
Burning command points I dont mind because I'm honestly not gonna use them much at all with this sort of list. I don't really have a melee bomb to spend all my CPs on, I'm just killing thru shooting and scoring the pants off my opponent.
Hey guys! New to the Cult, and to 9th anyone got any good wholesome wisdom about what to give Genestealers?
Planning on finally building some up this weekend!
posermcbogus wrote: Hey guys! New to the Cult, and to 9th anyone got any good wholesome wisdom about what to give Genestealers?
Planning on finally building some up this weekend!
Trucks and buggies and sentinels, oh my. Load everything to the gills with heavy weapon toting neophytes (mining lasers mostly) and take the jackal alphus + magus or patriarch for mission flexibility.
You can take pretty much anything else but bikes are solid choices as well as cheap(ish) elite slot characters for taking actions.
If you dip into guard for brood bros it cost you CP for another detachment but you can get the best characters for missions in the game IMO. With orders or deepstrike they can be anywhere and are dirty cheap in some cases. For example an astropath is a funny choice for the psychic mission at the center.
posermcbogus wrote: Hey guys! New to the Cult, and to 9th anyone got any good wholesome wisdom about what to give Genestealers?
Planning on finally building some up this weekend!
Trucks and buggies and sentinels, oh my. Load everything to the gills with heavy weapon toting neophytes (mining lasers mostly) and take the jackal alphus + magus or patriarch for mission flexibility.
You can take pretty much anything else but bikes are solid choices as well as cheap(ish) elite slot characters for taking actions.
If you dip into guard for brood bros it cost you CP for another detachment but you can get the best characters for missions in the game IMO. With orders or deepstrike they can be anywhere and are dirty cheap in some cases. For example an astropath is a funny choice for the psychic mission at the center.
You can go all infantry, but I have for 2 editions and I am bored of just taking deploying and removing handfuls of expensive models so I can tick spots on a dry erase board. It's like a very expensive and sadistic game of bingo.
So the more I run the cult the more I like seismic over mining lasers.
Maybe it's just my meta being extremely tilted toward marines and custodes and eldar wraiths and the other extreme being totally infantry based guard and ork armies, but I like Ridgerunners for lascannon coverage and Seismics in my Neophyte squads.
I tend to run out of great targets for MLs after turn 2, and the neophyte squads are almost always one of the last things to go from my list, because my opponents almost always target ridgerunners or rockgrinders T1, Acolytes primarily T2, and then get distracted by characters, stupid small units, and other assorted chaff junk T3+, so I almost always have undamaged neophyte squads runnning around with impunity the later turns of the game.
I run a mech GSC list with trucks spam and 10 man neophyte hybrids with 2 siesmic cannons. my generic list tends to have 6-8 of these and a jakal alphus and a primus.
Hive cult is a trap imo. your neophytes will just die when they get out of the trucks t2-3.
Bladed cog is the key. re rolling wounds against 3 targets is super important.
mining lasers will miss. siesemic cannons will fire 10 more shots that can rend. shots=hits=wounds
dreadlybrew wrote: I run a mech GSC list with trucks spam and 10 man neophyte hybrids with 2 siesmic cannons. my generic list tends to have 6-8 of these and a jakal alphus and a primus.
Hive cult is a trap imo. your neophytes will just die when they get out of the trucks t2-3.
Bladed cog is the key. re rolling wounds against 3 targets is super important.
mining lasers will miss. siesemic cannons will fire 10 more shots that can rend. shots=hits=wounds
3 targets? I know Single Minded gives you one target, and only for the transports themselves (Yet another reason I generally go for Ridgerunners for my lasers) but how do you get reroll wounds on more than 1 target?
In general I don't rate reroll auras very highly in GSC. either my units bring a reroll aura along with them (Acolytes with banners) or they can't use a reroll aura fully because they're in a truck. I bring one alphus, I give her single minded for my HMLs and Autocannons turn 1 (love autocannons with RR to wound) and past that point I dont really worry about rerolls.
My second HQ is generally a Magus, who pops in with the acolytes to give them 5+FNP and +1S +1A.IMO that's better than +1 to hit and RR 1s to wound with the primus, but I suppose I could be wrong there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiai wrote: Your reasoning makes sence. But I am not up against marines. Siesmics have no good targets with me. I need as many lasers as I can get vs T8.
Yeah I fully expect its totally meta dependent. Like 50% of the lists in my area are W2+ MEQ at this point between the many people who picked up very cheap custode lists and the primaris lists.
dreadlybrew wrote: The bladed cog WL trait lets you re roll all wounds, primus stratgem from greater good lets you choose 2 for re rolling 1s.
Ah, Ok, i read that as someone having a way to get full reroll wounds.
RR 1s to wound I would value more if aura abilities worked on units within transports. As it stands, I tend to use the primus' aura for exactly one round of melee attacks, to make whatever my acolytes are chopping up more dead. And it's generally overkill, which is why I switched to the magus to support the acolytes, because one of his buffs is offense (if not as good as the primus' buffs) and one of his buffs is defense in BC, making my acolytes that much more irritating to get rid of.
I rarely need anything more than Overthrow the Oppressors to massively overkill whatever I want dead with my Acolytes. They frequently blow through 70-80% of their point value in the one combat phase, then my goal with them is to make killing them as much of my opponent's next turn as I can manage.
I just wish Aberrants were sanely priced. God, would I love to have those guys sucking up antitank fire bottom of turn 2/top of 3 after obliterating a unit.
I've almost caught myself wondering if they might still be the pick despite how objectively overcosted they are.
Typically I go for 20x acolytes 6x saws+Banner, which is 230 plus I think 95 (might be 100) for the magus with familiar who I probably wouldn't bother with with the aberrants. That is enough to buy 10x pick aberrants.
They don't have Cult Reinforcements, which is a big con because when the acolytes survive with 1-3 models spending 1CP to respawn usually ALL the rock saws is just...hideous, but they do have monstrous vigor which makes them extremely obnoxious to remove, and my opponent would be more likely to be tempted to put D3/D6 damage weaponry into them to try and score a lucky 3+ damage hit on them, which is what they need to kill my vehicles...
dreadlybrew wrote: The bladed cog WL trait lets you re roll all wounds, primus stratgem from greater good lets you choose 2 for re rolling 1s.
Ah, Ok, i read that as someone having a way to get full reroll wounds.
RR 1s to wound I would value more if aura abilities worked on units within transports. As it stands, I tend to use the primus' aura for exactly one round of melee attacks, to make whatever my acolytes are chopping up more dead. And it's generally overkill, which is why I switched to the magus to support the acolytes, because one of his buffs is offense (if not as good as the primus' buffs) and one of his buffs is defense in BC, making my acolytes that much more irritating to get rid of.
I rarely need anything more than Overthrow the Oppressors to massively overkill whatever I want dead with my Acolytes. They frequently blow through 70-80% of their point value in the one combat phase, then my goal with them is to make killing them as much of my opponent's next turn as I can manage.
I just wish Aberrants were sanely priced. God, would I love to have those guys sucking up antitank fire bottom of turn 2/top of 3 after obliterating a unit.
I've almost caught myself wondering if they might still be the pick despite how objectively overcosted they are.
Typically I go for 20x acolytes 6x saws+Banner, which is 230 plus I think 95 (might be 100) for the magus with familiar who I probably wouldn't bother with with the aberrants. That is enough to buy 10x pick aberrants.
They don't have Cult Reinforcements, which is a big con because when the acolytes survive with 1-3 models spending 1CP to respawn usually ALL the rock saws is just...hideous, but they do have monstrous vigor which makes them extremely obnoxious to remove, and my opponent would be more likely to be tempted to put D3/D6 damage weaponry into them to try and score a lucky 3+ damage hit on them, which is what they need to kill my vehicles...
If Aberrants were sanely priced I would definitely use them for my melee deepstrike purposes instead of Acolytes (which are unwieldy in mass and extremely fragile whilst having no better charge possibilities than Aberrants now) but right now it's a big fat NO
Sawcolytes+Magus are definitely better at the job of killing stuff. Even if you ignore entirely EVERY model without a saw, the 6x saws with MFB can kill a full squad of primaris marines, which is basically all I can expect them to get themselves into.
But the aberrants are undoubtedly better at being annoying to kill the following turn. And they still kill 8 primaris, so theoretically if I needed to I could drop Overthrow on them if I got them into something really nice and beefy.
I dunno, I'm actually weighing the options against one another and I'm kind of thinking the number of times it'd be better for me to be more durable vs the number of times it'd be better for me to be more killy is a pretty high ratio...
My current setup for acolytes+Magus is 325pts total. they obliterate pretty much whatever I fling them at.
10 aberrants is 320 with all picks. They definitely do less damage. but, between bestial vigor aberrants and 5+FNP Acolytes, it makes them about 50% more durable against anything except specifically damage D3/Flat 3/D6 weaponry, which is exactly what I want to be trying to redirect away from my vehicles...
With the Hand Flamers range increased to 12" I see NO REASON not to play 5 sized units of Acolytes with 2 Rock Cutters and 5 HF for 70 mere points: you get the antinfantry you need and with a charge you can still dish out your damage where before your hand flamer acolytes needed 2 CP to function and 0 charge possibilities
I'm happy with the hand flamers. Now I can just drop them and reliabley kill something fairly important without the 3inch ds strat AND charge them if anything is left.
KurtAngle2 wrote: With the Hand Flamers range increased to 12" I see NO REASON not to play 5 sized units of Acolytes with 2 Rock Cutters and 5 HF for 70 mere points: you get the antinfantry you need and with a charge you can still dish out your damage where before your hand flamer acolytes needed 2 CP to function and 0 charge possibilities
KurtAngle2 wrote: With the Hand Flamers range increased to 12" I see NO REASON not to play 5 sized units of Acolytes with 2 Rock Cutters and 5 HF for 70 mere points: you get the antinfantry you need and with a charge you can still dish out your damage where before your hand flamer acolytes needed 2 CP to function and 0 charge possibilities
What do you mean with the handflamers increased?
There was a recent warhammer community post that showed off the updated stats for several weapons, including handflamers becoming 12" range.
KurtAngle2 wrote: With the Hand Flamers range increased to 12" I see NO REASON not to play 5 sized units of Acolytes with 2 Rock Cutters and 5 HF for 70 mere points: you get the antinfantry you need and with a charge you can still dish out your damage where before your hand flamer acolytes needed 2 CP to function and 0 charge possibilities
Why playing 5 man squad? in a goliath rockgrinder?
I think is better to run a 15 man squad, possibly in the center of the table so that you can flame a squad and then charge the other.
Bottom line hand flamer 12" is really good for us.
For what it is worth, I think it isn’t so much our codex is weak rules-wise as our current points are limiting available options. There are a lot of units and equipment options that are too expensive at their current costs to be efficient, despite otherwise having relatively good rules (Aberrants being the #1 example).
godardc wrote: I have heard gene cult is one of the worst codex in 9th ? What do you think about that ?
I do not know all of the codexes in 9th edition, and I have not had enough of games in 9th edition. But I will try to awnser anyway.
It depends on how you measure worst. Can you build a comptetteive build out of it who can stand with the best? I think so. This person Alex has a good list on a podcast. It is mentioned further up in this thread.
But let us break it down in some other categories:
Number units, points of the units, stratagems, 8th edition porting to 9th edition, types of units performanse, what is good.
1. Number of units. GSC do not have very many units. HQ has six, troops have 3, elites have 9 (6 who are characters), Fast attack have 3, heavy support have 3, flyers have 0, dedicated transports are 2, 1 fortifications. That is a very low number. To make things worse you can not have 2 of the same characters in the same unit.
2. Some of our units are prised very badly. All 3 unit choises in elites are very overpriced. Some of the characters are not good, and you can not duplicate them in the same detachment. All of the heavy support choises perform very bad for their point cost (although heavy weapon teams are OK, but the bad BS makes them very unreliable.)
3. GSC are the kings of stratagems. We have very good stratagems, with very unique effects. What we are missing is a universal shoot twice and fight twice (last one being rolled into twisted helix.)
4. Porting from 8th to 9th. GSC could often have over 20 CP in 8th edition, and the stratagems are prised thusly. Porting over to 9th edition means one of GSC best aspects did not do very well.
5. Many of the HQ perform quite well. The bread and butter units are either high power lascannons mining- or heavy mining laser or great melle options in rocksaws. These are on neophyte acolytes and rudgerunners. Also, the humble troop choises are very good for disrupting or fight for the board controll points. Unfortunetly about half of the codex does not get cult creeds: Patriarch, genestealers and brood brothers. Brood brothers are also splitt on transports and rules as they mix bad and do not benefit. Unfortunetly this also carries onto leman russ, and heavy wepaon teams. Sentinels are only good for scout move. Bikes are good for the grenade bomb (heavy on points and CP) or for grabbing points.
6. So what is good? We have a small codex. Some of them looses out for just not having good rules/performanses. (All heavy support options, to some degree sentinel and bikes, both transports and the brood brother troop choise. Many of the characters who are not mentioned later.) Most of our elite choises disapear because they are far to exspensive abberants, genestealers and neophytes. So what is left?
- Neophytes with autoguns/heavy weapons or naked shotguns.
- Acolytes with rocksaws (honorable mention hand flamers.)
- Ridgerunners.
- The following HQ's. Patriarch, Magus, Primus, Jackal Alpus, Acolyte Iconward.
- The following elite characters: Kellemorph, Sactus.
All of the above units needs some form of stratagem to perform well. 6 out of the 9 units are characters (who you can only take 1 of in each detachment mind you.) All GSC lists will essentially have choises of a mix of Ridgerunners, Neophytes and Acolytes.
Does that mean the codex is bad? Yes I would think so. Espesially the more 'cassual you are' the worse is it for you. If you had a codex with many good units you are much more free to make choises based upon flavour and not performanse.
Yeah I could have written it better^^
I meant that the codex isn't well suited for 9th, with fragile glass cannon units unable to correctly keep objectives for example. Haven't played 9th yet though so hard to tell by myself
godardc wrote: Yeah I could have written it better^^
I meant that the codex isn't well suited for 9th, with fragile glass cannon units unable to correctly keep objectives for example. Haven't played 9th yet though so hard to tell by myself
You can try something like this. It is Alex#s list. In the original list the one biker and 6 ridgerunners are hivecult, and the 5 man acolute and sanctus are 4 armed emperor. The rest are bladed cog.
godardc wrote: Yeah I could have written it better^^
I meant that the codex isn't well suited for 9th, with fragile glass cannon units unable to correctly keep objectives for example. Haven't played 9th yet though so hard to tell by myself
Ah, well in that case I'd say your assumption is incorrect. While our army is absolutely TERRIBLE at playing anything like "let's shoot and punch each other to establish dominance", our army is pretty good at doing the important things of 9th; holding territory. Why? Because we can get to objectives nearly instantly with a host of fast units followed up with objective secured deep strikers, and we have two stratagems that let us put blocking units in the way of ground based opponents. I'm regularly killing less than 50% of my opponent's armies, getting tabled, and winning because I scored the points while they didn't. Just played against an Admech list with a metric ton of guns in Cawl, Mars Robots, and tons of Mars Kataphrons, Chicken-Walker gun dudes, etc. Won 82-40. He just was never able to score more than 5 points a turn. I was also able to keep my main characters hidden the whole game (he had them picked for Assassinate secondary), so despite losing everything else, I was okay. My secondaries were all holding objectives-based, nothing based on killing, though I was able to kill 1 unit of my opponent's "While We Stand We Fight" (his Aircraft; didn't get Cawl or a Dunecrawler).
EDIT: I killed; the Thopter aircraft, 3 chicken-walkers, 2x 5-man squads of dudes with radiation guns, the "toaster" transport, and 10 Electropriests. Nothing else.
To swing back to the_scotsman's musings regarding a foot list earlier, might I propose Twisted Helix as a potential candidate?
The early competitive meta appears to be bifurcated between two general archetypes - cheap melee horde that can pressure midfield objectives and high toughness/multiwound non-vehicle models (Bikes and heavy infantry/beasts). Twisted Helix has a lot of tools to deal with the latter archetype (base strength boost, relic and warlord trait, unique power) and the speed boost granted by their second trait helps get them to the midfield in time with the former. With the Twisted Helix trait, Acolytes are effectively as fast as Genestealers (only requiring Psychic Stimulus or Genetic Lineage to get advance and charge) and bikes can threaten an impressive 22'' with Flare Launchers. The strength boost also makes bikes not quite as inept in close combat if you need them to bully small units.
Main drawback that I can see right now is that they are down a stratagem until Aberrants (hopefully) have their price adjusted and they don't directly improve durability, but I think they might be able to copy the Ork and Slannash melee horde archetypes.
I had an interesting 1500 game on Tuesday as well against Nurgle Daemons. We played the mission where objectives remain in control of the player who secured them last. The opponent brought a Nurgle brigade with two 20-strong blocks of Plaugebringers, some nurglings, and support characters, as well as a spearhead consisting of three Skull Cannons and Skarbrand.
My list:
Spoiler:
4-Armed Emperor Battalion
HQ: Patriarch
HQ: Primus
HQ: Magus
ELITES: 5x Metamorphs with 3x Talon/Rending Claw, 2x Duel Talon
ELITES: 5x Metamorphs with 3x Talon/Rending Claw, 2x Duel Talon
ELITES: 5x Metamorphs with 3x Talon/Rending Claw, 2x Duel Talon
ELITES: 1x Nexos
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
TROOPS: 5x Acolytes with 1x Rock Saw
As odd as it sounds, the Metamorph squads ended up being MVPs for the game. The board had one large ruin with two objectives within charging distance, one of which was claimed by one of the large plaguebringing squads. The metamorph squads ambushed in on the bottom-most floor, with the intention of charging out to take the objective, but all three squads failed their charges. However, when the Plaguebringers charged in retaliation they weren't able to get many models engaged with the 5-strong units due to terrain and coherency rules, so they only killed 2 models from one squad and 3 models from another (the third squad was out of charge range). The metamorphs in turn killed 12 out of 20 Plaguebringers and moral took 2 more, leaving 6 left to fight the following. The free (unhurt) squad then moved out and charged into the other squad of Plaguebringers that had engaged with my Ridgerunners and killed about half of that unit using Violence Unleashed while the other metas finished off what was left of the 6-strong unit.
While I'd argue they are still probably a bit overpriced, based on their performance in this game (despite my blunders) I am considering keeping some Metamorphs in my lists as tech to deal with opposing melee hordes. Plaguebringers are still fairly tough by horde standards, so I'd imagine against something like Ork Boys they would do even better.
As for the game itself, we unfortunately had to end the game on turn 3 due to the store closing. The opponent ended up winning by 5 points but they didn't have much left at the end of the game (basically Skarbrand, a Skull Cannon, three Nurgle Heralds, and a single Nurgling base), so had we been able to continue I think I could have made up the deficit fairly easily.
I was using metapmorphs before 9th with some success, the whip ones are handy to have around regardless of your opponent. Just wish they weren't priced so weirdly (i.e. a bit too expensive compared to acolytes to take them often).
Has anyone else got mileage from the Abominant? It won't really kill things consistently, but since I was running Bladed Cog recently I took one with Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah and Born Survivor and while it mightn't have been a meta-pick it was very funny watching some Sanguinary Guard just bounce off it as it waddled around the midfield objectives and occasionally splatted things with the hammer. Might try using it to hold objectives some more.
Now, some thoughts I have after playing it:
- The basic idea of the list works well
- The current list has absolutly no plan on what it wants to start on the table, and it is a huge problem.
- The list is very points starved. It would be much better as a brigade.
What I need from you are suggestions to good units to start on the table. What is our most durable units?
Commitz wrote: I was using metapmorphs before 9th with some success, the whip ones are handy to have around regardless of your opponent. Just wish they weren't priced so weirdly (i.e. a bit too expensive compared to acolytes to take them often).
I agree on the price certainly. I was enjoying them a lot at the previous bracket (which was closer to their 7th edition glory days). With that being said, I was shocked at how well they did the last game I played and given how many of the tournament performers have been including things similar to what they performed against it got me wondering it they may be worthwhile to include. I have not had a chance to play since then, but I'm hoping to get some more tests in soon.
Commitz wrote: Has anyone else got mileage from the Abominant? It won't really kill things consistently, but since I was running Bladed Cog recently I took one with Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah and Born Survivor and while it mightn't have been a meta-pick it was very funny watching some Sanguinary Guard just bounce off it as it waddled around the midfield objectives and occasionally splatted things with the hammer. Might try using it to hold objectives some more.
I have not used mine in 9th yet, but one in Bladed Cog with the Mark was one of my favorite units in fun games. As you said, he generally waddled around the midfield making other squads play keepaway, and as long as he wasn't getting buried under mortal wounds he would generally survive the game. His Chosen One aura (6's to hit cause extra hits) and Overthrow the Oppressors (6's to hit cause extra hit rolls) are quite a fun combination as well.
I know the Hammer nerf made him not as lethal as his pre-codex incarnation, though he still has a S6 rending claw that hits on 3's when fighting lesser infantry. Min 3 damage on the hammer is nice for Blade Guard though.
Niiai wrote:
What I need from you are suggestions to good units to start on the table. What is our most durable units?
What constitutes "durable" is somewhat meta dependent. My local meta for instance has tended towards lots of anti-infantry firepower with relatively light anti-tank (generally deepstrike suicide squads and outflankers) so vehicles have generally been better for me than hordes of foot sloggers. In a meta where 3 squads of Eradicators are dominant, that obviously would not be the case (though admittedly, a Goliath Truck is still "relatively" durable in the sense of being one of the lower cost vehicles and the firepower in question is gross overkill, so it isn't the most cost-efficient target compared to say a Repulser or Monolith).
In general, I'd say the Atlan Jackals, Brood Brothers, and Goliath Trucks are the main "durable" units, as defined by being relatively inefficient to target. The Abominant with the Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah is also a fairly tough anvil, if not the most consistent in damage output.
One thing that might be worth looking into that has been mentioned before but not really acted upon: The Bladed Cog trait either grants an invul or improves an existing one - it doesn't care where the invul comes from, just that there is one. As such, a Void Shield Generator or Skyshield Landing Pad could be used to provide a 4++ to a fairly large chunk of the army for the first turn, with the potential for additional use depending on where the objectives end up. This trick didn't really get explored in 8th given the opportunity cost was so great, but in 9th fortifications only cost 1 CP instead of effectively 5 (for giving up a battalion) and the preference to fit as much into one detachment as possible means there will generally be at least one free detachment available.
Well thank you for the imputt. I must be honest, I had not much considered the fortefications.
They seem very durable at T8 and a lot of wounds. The landing pad only affects units on topp. It might be a good place to start ridgerunners. But everytging else will have problems getting down, being so tall and all. Also it can not be 3" close to any other terain, somewhat nerfing them. The plasma generator is 200 points. Rather a lott. Especially if it doed not protect a lot.
I also think trucks, brood brothers and atelan jackals can be durable. The jackals are a bit depended on terain. 18 points for T4, 2 wounds, 4+, -1 to hit is not all that good. Multi wound weapons kills them easaly.
I have also been eyeing the chimera. It does not have 6+++. But has better T and save. Also, I can upgrade it to have a flamer. 2 heavy flamers at 90 points is nothing to sneeze at.
Ironically I do not think the leman russ is that durable. Even at T8, 4+. It will just eat every high powered weapon there is. Or am I wrong about this?
Abominant with Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah with born survivor warlord trait is the most fun warlord I have ever used. It is the best distraction Carnifex ever and it has tanked Leman Russ shots, demon princes, and Manticore shots like a champ.
He might not do much damage but people fear him for his toughness.
There are a lot of good tactical observations brought up during the discussion and the list itself is very interesting. Lots of mech for the on-table presence coupled with two bike bombs and two Acolyte bombs for threat removal.
Niiai wrote:The plasma generator is 200 points. Rather a lott. Especially if it doed not protect a lot.
It has fairly wide coverage. The field itself affects units wholly within 12'' of the generator, which is itself 6'' across, so the total bubble is about 30'' in diameter. The structure itself is also tall enough to block line-of-sight to a Patriarch or Goliath truck, so it can be used to shield a key unit from first-turn sniping.
Niiai wrote:
I also think trucks, brood brothers and atelan jackals can be durable. The jackals are a bit depended on terain. 18 points for T4, 2 wounds, 4+, -1 to hit is not all that good. Multi wound weapons kills them easaly.
Jackals are 14 points without equipment. While it isn't as nice as their old price at 10, it is still reasonable for something that has their mobility and relative toughness (they effectively pay 2 points over an equal wound value of Neophytes for -1 to hit and a toughness bump).
While I agree multi-damage weaponry is a concern, it is worth remembering that the sort of multi-damage weaponry that counters Jackals is also the sort that is most dangerous to our vehicles. If Jackals are taking the hits it buys some extra time for the Ridgerunners and Goliaths to do what they need to do
Niiai wrote:
I have also been eyeing the chimera. It does not have 6+++. But has better T and save. Also, I can upgrade it to have a flamer. 2 heavy flamers at 90 points is nothing to sneeze at.
They also have their smoke launchers still if I recall right. Main issue for the Chimera is that its available cargo is rather limited (though I suppose a squad of Brood Brothers to secure an objective isn't too bad an idea),
Niiai wrote:
Ironically I do not think the leman russ is that durable. Even at T8, 3+. It will just eat every high powered weapon there is. Or am I wrong about this?
I don't think anyone would disagree it is a fire magnet, though admittedly how much fire it will attract will probably be directly proportional to the amount of Ridgerunners also present, since they have higher damage potential between stratagems and accuracy enhancements.
It is rather expensive for its durability though.
shamroll wrote:
He might not do much damage but people fear him for his toughness.
I agree. I suppose it also might be worth nothing he does have the potential to do stupid amounts of damage (I have had one take down a Knight by himself with Overthrow the Oppressors and his Chosen One Aura creating a string of extra hits and attacks) but not consistently like a Patriarch or melee squad.
Here is my atempt at a competetive GSC cult list. 22 drops. 9 start on the table. (Start 12 things on the table and pull the rest into reserves with 'they came from below.)
Starting Alphus, 3 ridgerunner squads, 3 mortar squads, 1 brood brother squad, 1 nexos on the table.
Things I do not like in this list: The elite slot feels a lot like a tax. Locus and Nexos in particular feels bad. 100 points for 'nothing'.
Othervice do deepstrike shenanigans. Shotgun squads to deny objectives and kill troops. With the CP I have they can be combined with lying in wait and a perfect abush. Also, a perfect ambush is very good on the acolyte hybrid group.
I do feel that I could remove the acolyte hand flamer, nexos and locus (150 points) and add 2 groups of 5 hyrbid metamorphs with rending tallon, lash whip and hand flamer (130 points.)
I'll always feel like Brigades are a trap because of the 'wasted' points on sub-optimal units to fill it.
But I to notice a lack of troop choices to fit everything in and GSC is so CP hungry that getting a 2nd detachment also feels bad.
I think your trying to do to much at the same time.
5 hand flamers just isn't threatening enough. You won't even kill 10 Guardsman off an objective at that point.
I would either drop them or go bigger, atleast 10 but preferably 15-20.
the BB are not going to survive on an objective for even 1 turn and from experience, mortars just don't do anything (like 7 mortars do less then 5 handflamers) and that was in 8th before Dense terrain existed.
I would bite the bullet and drop the Brigade, go for a Battalion + Patrol. Patriarch with SMO. Magus in the Patrol, 4AE and Inscrutable cunning to get some CP back.
Drop the Mortars, Locus, Nexos. Expand or drop the Hand Flamers and bring 2 big 20 man BB units to stand on your home objectives.
You have some good points. I am bot sure about the mortars beeing bad though. I guess it depends on what we face.
For under 50 points they give me board pressense to deploy with. And they are great for picking of small or wounded units. My regular opponent is an ork. 10 boys or 10 gretcskins and they do fine. If I meet 30 boys in one unit I get 27 shots into them. Hitting half, wounding half. Not great but what can you ecspect for 150 points.
The BB will certanly die fast. I think mayby I will try to keep them hidden until the rest of my force arives. Then they can eek out and try to grab ny home objective. They or the mortars should be alive.
I suspect a lot of the board will be looking very caotic turn 2 or 3. Having the ekstra help on mortars to take out wounded units should be great.
Maybe everyone here is playing with the GT pack... but under the standard rules for Matched Play, I can't see anything that prevents us from deploying our units from underground on Turn 1.
Is this right? Also are there still restrictions on deploying no more than half your army in reserve? Because as far as I can tell, those rules are only in the GT pack. So for those of us not using it in games with our opponents, can we deep strike T1? And can we do so with more than half our army?
Sorry if this has already been dealt with - haven't had many games of 9th so far, and I'd sort of assumed the old restrictions on deep-striking carried over, but looking again through the book I can't see that this is the case.
It reads "No more than half the total number of units in your army can be Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units...
"In Eternal War missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round."
But under the Strategic Reserves rule, it says "Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules."
So Cult Ambush does not count as Strategic Reserves, or Reinforcements - so even with this rule for Eternal War missions does our army ignore it? Or am I missing an FAQ somewhere...
"Eternal War Mission Pack". Bullit point number Number 10, talks about what you can and can not do with reserves. Those are in matched play, and narative play. In open play the wording is different.
I hope that clears it up. If it is not there then look at the rules that lets you not deplpy on the table, and probably check any presissions in an FAQ.
It reads "No more than half the total number of units in your army can be Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units...
"In Eternal War missions, Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units can never arrive on the battlefield in the first battle round."
But under the Strategic Reserves rule, it says "Note that these rules do not apply to units that are using other rules that enable them to start the battle in a location other than the battlefield. Such units are not placed in Strategic Reserves and they are instead set up as described by their own rules."
So Cult Ambush does not count as Strategic Reserves, or Reinforcements - so even with this rule for Eternal War missions does our army ignore it? Or am I missing an FAQ somewhere...
You're missing that Cult Ambush is now officially only blip deployment. Underground is a separate state, that does count as Reinforcements.
I made the same mistake. it is, in my opinion, confusing and misleading.
Add the following:
Page 78 – Abilities, Cult Ambush
‘Matched Play: In matched play, units set up in ambush using this rule do not count as being Strategic Reserves or Reinforcement units.’
Thought this applied to both sections (ambush and underground). Thanks for clearing this up guys! Despite bullet points, the new rules are still as badly laid out as the old ones.
shamroll wrote: Abominant with Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah with born survivor warlord trait is the most fun warlord I have ever used. It is the best distraction Carnifex ever and it has tanked Leman Russ shots, demon princes, and Manticore shots like a champ.
He might not do much damage but people fear him for his toughness.
Does the Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah stack with Bestial Vigor? Or are you taking it for the invulnerable save?
Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah doesn't prevent you from also making the beastial Vigor roll. So he ends up with a T5 3++/5+++, -2 to all damage he takes, and he regains d3 wounds a turn. 2d3 if you spend 1 CP.
Since he can deep strike, hits with a s12 Hammer that does 3 to 6 damage, and can tank damage really well people will sometimes throw a lot of units at him trying to kill him. Any shots at him means less shots at your more squishy units that actually score you the victory points.
I think it is a decent enough collection as far as the selection of models is concerned, and technically everything is usable if taken as a Brood Brother's detachment (even if said detachment is disincentivized).
Focusing only on the units that can be used in-codex without a dedicated detachment, the infantry and weapon teams both have some unique as cheap options to sit on objectives. Sentinels I'm a bit down on at the moment given how much better Ridge Runners are as a scouting weapon platform, but they still have a bit of utility if leaning into their more unique weapons (Heavy Flamer, Plasma Cannon). I haven't had much playtime with Chimera in this edition but I would be somewhat curious to see if Heavy Bolter Chimera might be worth playing with post-buff. We don't have much mid-strength, mid-AP, damage 2 shooting for picking on Marines.
While the Hydra isn't great right now, it might be worth looking at when the guard get their new book. In the Space Marine codex book the to-hit penalty on AA weapons targeting non-Fly models was removed. If the Hydra gets the same buff it would pair very nicely with our Goliath Trucks for autocannon spam (with added accuracy vs fly).
does anyone else find the detachemnt costing comand points hurt this army more than others? i was all about mixing bladed cog and rusted claw in 8th, but now even trying to get a working army with my playstyle out the door costs me 5-6cp before the game even starts. and GSC is such a CP hungry beast that i cant even feel confident my turn 2 bombs are going to land in any way.
I think it just exhausts me that there is no room for error and i am not allowed to make a single mistake or fail a charge roll or miss an attack because if i do my t3 board is done for.
I've been enjoying a 240pt blob of hybrids flame throwering twice though thats pretty juicy.
My last list had a full brigade, to unlock more then 6 troop choises. It did not do very well, as I find Orks a good oponent. I would leave some models at home to grab one or two leman russes. I really need more big guns that starts on the map. My opponents 2 dakkajets chewed through one unit each ever turn.
Hello friends, I’ve sort of been floating around different armies recently, considering getting a new one, and GSC are resonating with me, thematically. But I’m curious about the play style. I read the write up in the first post, and they seem quite fun, but how do they stack up as a whole vs a heavy marine meta? (My group play a lot of marines). I’m worried that their paper thin units and lack of strength will make them insanely in affective and easy wins for my friends.
Ah well that’s good. They seem like good fun, so I’ll use some proxy games to see how I find them to fair. Any advice on how to fight marines with them?
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah well that’s good. They seem like good fun, so I’ll use some proxy games to see how I find them to fair. Any advice on how to fight marines with them?
It is somewhat tricky to give good general advice since it depends rather heavily on what sort of list is being used. For example, in my local meta (prior to the most recent shutdown) we have four exclusively Space Marine players: One favors Ultramarine midfield gunline, one favors Firstborn Marines in drop pods, one favors mech with a bit of Gravis sprinkled in, and the last one favors mass Infiltrator Ravenguard. I have had relatively even fights with the first three using a combination of mech, Jackals, and ambushers, but the last one is very hard to have a good game against since it hard counters ambush and has enough anti-armor to shut down pure mech (plus, infiltrators themselves are shockingly good at doing plink damage with their "wound on 6's to hit" ability).
If you are building for a Marine-centric meta (which is admittedly a fairly safe assumption), I'd suggest leaning heavily on Acolytes and Jackals. Acolytes are the most cost-effective solution we have to marine infantry due to their special weapons (Rock Saws for general infantry, Rock Cutters for Gravis and Bladeguard Vets) and you can sling them up the board from an ambush token if you absolutely have to (using Perfect Ambush for D6'', regular move + advance, and Genetic Memory or Psychic Stimulus to enable charging). Jackals are a bit pricey, but they are the best option we have for taking midfield objectives on turn 1 due to their speed, especially if you also have some Ridgerunners with Flare Launchers.
You ideally want to use your forces to keep the Marines from claiming the midfield. If you can keep them pinned around their deployment zone for turn 1, 2, and 3 you should be able to rack up a victory point lead.Getting a victory point lead is essential, as we bleed secondary points rather badly. You also will want to prioritize units that threaten infantry, even if you are leaning heavier into mech. The GSC infantry are the primary damage dealers, so if you can use your vehicles to set up a more favorable board state for the infantry it makes things a bit easier.
Lastly, possibly look at adding a Sanctus with Biodagger. I have been finding they are a fairly good unit to pick on small marine squads, and they are fairly nimble (can use Perfect Ambush for free on turn 1 when the Sanctus reveals itself from an ambush token, then advance and charge using Slipping through the Shadows for a fairly impressive 20'' first turn average threat range).
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah well that’s good. They seem like good fun, so I’ll use some proxy games to see how I find them to fair. Any advice on how to fight marines with them?
Basically, marines do a half-dozen of the most common competitive strategies the best so it's hard to make a solid recommendation. The prescence of infiltrators is basically our hardest-hard-counter out there, so if they have a lot of them you're in trouble basically no matter what. Typically I run some ridgerunners, some jackals just for objective grabbing, and my neophytes are double seismic cannon in goliaths with a Jackal Alphus nearby to buff the vehicles up. Then in deep strike I have 20 acolytes with a magus with familiar to cast Might from Beyond and the Bladed Cog 5+FNP power, a Kelermorph to pick off a character, and a Dagger Sanctus and Locus to deep strike and perform actions.
Basically my strategy is "distract while scoring objectives." The real things that win games are the stupid deep striking/action performing characters and the minimum jackal squads zipping around and scoring, the deep strike bomb and the mounted troops are just there to kill what they can and distract the enemy.
Brood brothers went up 1 point(?)
Abberants went down 2 points.
Heavy weapon teams went up 2 points (an even 50 for 3)
All leman russmain weapons went down 15 points.
All rockgrinder weapons went down 15 points.
Some non flamer chimera weapons got cheaper.
Goliath Truck became 10 points cheaper.
I like mech but they aren't being very subtle in regards to pushing it, are they?
It would have been nice if they had been a bit more generous with the cost drops but I suppose we can take what we are given. The changes to bring it down is also rather helpful since almost all of our vehicles only give up 1 victory point now, so mech builds aren't starting 15 points down.
Very happy about the point drops. All of them needed it.
I seriously don't understand the brood brother increase though. Doesn't that make them the same as neophytes? Why would you ever bring a brood brother over a neophyte as you lose out on creeds and gain absolutely nothing in return? It being a bit cheaper was the only reason to take them wasn't it?
Keramory wrote: Very happy about the point drops. All of them needed it.
I seriously don't understand the brood brother increase though. Doesn't that make them the same as neophytes? Why would you ever bring a brood brother over a neophyte as you lose out on creeds and gain absolutely nothing in return? It being a bit cheaper was the only reason to take them wasn't it?
Well I suspect they followed the point increases/decreases on the overlapping units in the IG codex. They do have some advantages. You can take a heavy weapon team. And you can ride a Chimera (now also cheaper.)
NinthMusketeer wrote:Coming from a crusade angle; are aberrants as bad in cost when it comes to PL as they are in points?
They are currently PL 8 so the base 5-strong squad costs roughly 10 points more using power than they are using points. However, if you factor in a Hypermorph the power rating comes out better.
One helpful thing in crusade, you can use Psychic Summons to bring in units as needed since Crusade does not use reinforcement points. These units won't gain XP or level up, but they can help pad your numbers a bit.
Hey I'm new to GSC and I was wondering are there any HQ's that you recommend having multiples of? I've been searching ebay for army lots and most of them include HQ's I already have (Iconward, Primus, Broodlord, Abominant).
In 8th edition, I would have definitely said Patriarch, when multiple detachments were encouraged and gave you CP bonuses.
Now that 9th encourages playing with only a single detachment, and bearing in mind our current Gene-sect rule for matched play prohibits us from running more than 1 of each character in the same detachment, it's harder to recommend getting multiples.
However, there's still an argument to be made for running a Bladed Cog battalion with a 4AE patrol for the utility that brings, so it might still be worth picking up another patriarch (perhaps a different broodlord model to distinguish the two!)
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Hey I'm new to GSC and I was wondering are there any HQ's that you recommend having multiples of? I've been searching ebay for army lots and most of them include HQ's I already have (Iconward, Primus, Broodlord, Abominant).
If you are planning on leaning heavier into Mech you will probably want a second Jackal Alphus (one to follow transports/bikes and one to sit with Ridgerunners). Otherwise as mentioned a second Patriarch is also nice to have for redundancy.
It probably won't hurt to have duplicates of the other characters in preparation for what changes might be made in the new codex (however far off that is). The aforementioned Genesect rule is an artifact of 8th edition army building and I would not be surprised if it was revised to only apply to the Broodcoven units (Patriarch, Magus, Primus) in a new book if not dropped all together. I suppose it might also be worth noting that if you are playing Crusade rather than matched play that the Brood Coven rule doesn't apply,.
You can have the Abominant use his rending claw against infantry. It is still S6 -1 AP with exploding 6's to hit. Not amazing, but not horrible either.
I do like taking one Primus with their upgrade to provide support for Ridgerunners and then use return to shadows to send them up the field to help out Rock Grinders. The biggest hurdle for taking more than one is really just the genesect rule. In 8th I liked taking 2x Primus, 2x Alphus to provide +1 to hit for both my melee and shooting, but there aren't really enough slots to do so right now and take other HQ options.
In a heavy psyker meta I could see some argument for multiple Magi. They do help with shutting down smites and the like with their aura, but it is a rather rare circumstance and they are pricey.
Patriarch could be good, I also have Tyranids so the redundancy is fine (plus I had a lot of fun painting my first one).
Another question: I'm not sure how the GSC/Tyranids work together? Can I bring Tyranids in the same detachment as the GSC, say bringing a Carnifex brood in a GSC batallion? Or do they have to be in a separate detachment?
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:Patriarch could be good, I also have Tyranids so the redundancy is fine (plus I had a lot of fun painting my first one).
Another question: I'm not sure how the GSC/Tyranids work together? Can I bring Tyranids in the same detachment as the GSC, say bringing a Carnifex brood in a GSC batallion? Or do they have to be in a separate detachment?
They must be in separate detachments per army building rules. The only oddity is the in-codex Brood Brother units which can be included in a GSC detachment legally, but units taken from the Astra Militarium codex need to be in their own detachment.
Not Online!!! wrote: So, after having taken the plunge i do have some questions aswell:
The custom traits are basically chose two. The opportunity cost is the specific stratagems and relics you don't have access too right?
Further, as far as i understand brood brothers GSC should have acess to FWAM units?
Yeah. That's right on both. Also, there are some psychic powers that are cult-locked.
Brood Brother detachments are limited in quite specific ways, such as "no named characters". But Forgeworld units can be included.
Very interesting.
May i ask what stops us from then, combining the Auto weaponry ammo creed with the high explosive one, and proceed to use Sturmtruppen tactics for basic breakthroughs on a neophyte heavy basis?
The one annoying thing about Munitions Experts, if you think about it, is that it does nothing for Grenade Launchers... Because they are Assault weapons, and not grenades...
I've seen Tabletop Tactics run at least one game with a heavy neophytes list running Armour-Piecing Ammo, and it didn't go particularly well. The extra AP is next to useless if you can't hit and wound reliably. Each unit of neophytes would deal perhaps 2 wounds to its target, and then die horribly the next turn.
If we had access to orders for neophytes in combination with this, it could be worth considering.
yeah the munitions expert not applying to grenade launchers is, wierd. on one hand it is probably better that way, due to how the krak nade would be elevated to S7 and therefore turn into a far too cheap AT weapon, otoh i think frag nades would be 0 issue in that regard.
my idea was to attempt to shoot then charge in combination with the magus / patriarch, however i also am not surprised that it isn't picked, having at the time toyed arround with a R&H army though quite literally any cult creed is better then what i had access too so there's that
Yes I remember your R&H army - are you planning on running them with GSC rules? Neophyte spam with Bladed Cog certainly used to have legs - the idea being you brought as many cheap mining lasers as possible and flooded the board with bodies. Not sure how feasible this is in 9th as you'll want ambushing acolytes to push your opponent off objectives.
Actually, given how cheap mining lasers are, I'm not sure boosting krak grenade launchers to S7 would be a big deal.
Has anyone had much luck using any of the Cult Creeds besides Bladed Cog? Whenever I come to make a list I just can't bring myself to take anything else, except maybe a patrol of 4AE.
Drakeslayer wrote: Yes I remember your R&H army - are you planning on running them with GSC rules? Neophyte spam with Bladed Cog certainly used to have legs - the idea being you brought as many cheap mining lasers as possible and flooded the board with bodies. Not sure how feasible this is in 9th as you'll want ambushing acolytes to push your opponent off objectives.
No, i build up a fully separate daemoncult with hybrid's beeing possessed, the patriarch beeing a skulltaker, the magus beeing a BSF psyker, etc...
Actually, given how cheap mining lasers are, I'm not sure boosting krak grenade launchers to S7 would be a big deal.
Has anyone had much luck using any of the Cult Creeds besides Bladed Cog? Whenever I come to make a list I just can't bring myself to take anything else, except maybe a patrol of 4AE.
I think, out of a theorethical perspective that is, that bladed cog would be less relevant if gene sect wasn't such an issue. (full rerolls from the custom traits equals +- bs4+ atleast according to my ork math)
as it stands, 6 ppmsv 5 doesn't sit long on any objective, (especially if any SM show up)... 6++ though atleast guarantees a save...
If one could field more then 1 iconward you could atleast "buy " budget bladed cog for all others. Considering the CP tax though.
Drakeslayer wrote:Has anyone had much luck using any of the Cult Creeds besides Bladed Cog? Whenever I come to make a list I just can't bring myself to take anything else, except maybe a patrol of 4AE.
I've had fair results with Hivecult. The creed ability to fall back and shoot is nice for larger Jackal and Neophyte squads trying to hold down center and the Hivelord warlord trait is still really nice with Ridgerunners. The biggest issue is that, as before, it doesn't do much for the melee component and it is rather reliant upon vehicles for firepower (admittedly this isn't as large a problem with the mild nerf Bring it Down took).
I want to try Twisted Helix but I don't have quite enough Acolytes assembled to do what I would like to do with them. Both aspects of the creed ability are relevant right now with an expected influx of T5 infantry and the mission packets favoring more aggressive armies.
Not Online!!! wrote:
I think, out of a theorethical perspective that is, that bladed cog would be less relevant if gene sect wasn't such an issue. (full rerolls from the custom traits equals +- bs4+ atleast according to my ork math)
The Bladed Cog doesn't really require as much "building around" compared to the others, so it tends to be the "default" pick. You could take the Enforcers custom trait to get the move and fire heavy without penalty part of Bladed Cog if you wanted. Both Seismic Cannons and Stubbers sorta pair well with Armor Piercing since the former wants to be close for added strength and the latter is eligible for the effect.
Also on the subject of grenades, I have been finding Demolition Charges to be a relatively effective solution for Necron Warrior blobs. Blast generally means maximum volume of shots, S8 means wounding on a 2+, and -3 AP goes through the armor. Provided some accuracy fixing is available they tend to do good work and whatever is left can be cleaned up in melee.
I've figured it out everyone. Fire trucks. 10 acolytes with flamers in trucks. 5 heroes and as many re rolling wounds as bladed cog can give you. I threw a list with 8 trucks and 55 flamers in lost builder. There is a silly amount of shots going out in the center of the board. Won my last game by 70 points.
dreadlybrew wrote: I've figured it out everyone. Fire trucks. 10 acolytes with flamers in trucks. 5 heroes and as many re rolling wounds as bladed cog can give you. I threw a list with 8 trucks and 55 flamers in lost builder. There is a silly amount of shots going out in the center of the board. Won my last game by 70 points.
Can't wait to try it again.
Except for the fact that you can do it with Deepstrike by default
I have found that deep strike is worthless in 9th for the alpha striking squads we used to be able to use. Transports being the general name of the game in the current meta let our pretty decent transports rock out to control the mid board. You also need to save our expensive troops. The face that you can fire 10d6 flamers from inside the truck just makes them all that much better.
dreadlybrew wrote: I have found that deep strike is worthless in 9th for the alpha striking squads we used to be able to use. Transports being the general name of the game in the current meta let our pretty decent transports rock out to control the mid board. You also need to save our expensive troops. The face that you can fire 10d6 flamers from inside the truck just makes them all that much better.
If your unit is Acolyte with HFs and nothing else, deepstrike is the way to go due to trucks doing anything (rather they're costing you 75 points and being a hinderance) at all.
If you want to use Melee Acolytes, it's perfectly fine though
dreadlybrew wrote: I've figured it out everyone. Fire trucks. 10 acolytes with flamers in trucks. 5 heroes and as many re rolling wounds as bladed cog can give you. I threw a list with 8 trucks and 55 flamers in lost builder. There is a silly amount of shots going out in the center of the board. Won my last game by 70 points.
Can't wait to try it again.
What where you up against? I can see it having varied results. Also how are you getting re-rolls? The warlord trait only works on one enemy unit.
Please keep us posted. And how much work do the autocannons do? You can almost dinthis with heavy flamer chimera and flamer brood brothers.
Consider 4 armed emperor for better charges. S4 rending claws, mayby even some heavy weapons are a good danger.
I use bladed cog. A primus with the cp strat to choose 2 targets and the brood coven strat to give him the extra warlord trait from bladed cog. Because you are re rolling wounds you get a lot of value out of those auto hits.
I played against imperial guard. 7 leman russes and a manticore and wyvern. The autocannons really only killed the artillery.
Once in melee I was fishing for 6s to wound but because they are rending claws ap-4 worked out the hero blob has to move together with the abberants and be a glass cannon death ball anchored by an abdominant with the mark of the clawed omnisiah and a dr 1 patriarch.
dreadlybrew wrote: I have found that deep strike is worthless in 9th for the alpha striking squads we used to be able to use. Transports being the general name of the game in the current meta let our pretty decent transports rock out to control the mid board. You also need to save our expensive troops. The face that you can fire 10d6 flamers from inside the truck just makes them all that much better.
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, is there something that speaks against building Brigades for GSC?
Basically the heavy support slot for the most part isn't all that great, and GSC still kind of benefit a lot from bringing 2 subfactions (having a patrol to bring in some CTFAE to have Plan in your pocket and drop a few cheapo acolyte squads around the board who are pretty good at getting into CC without support)
I find myself running bat+patrol way more often than brigade. 5 man CTFAE hand flamer acolyte squads are an excellent mix of cheap enough to be objective/secondary grabbers and threatening enough to pose a credible threat.
Also, GSC can have some big, expensive units, it is not actually all that hard to fit everything you need into those 3 slots. A 10-man neophyte squad with 2 heavies and a truck is like 150ish total, a 20-block of acolytes is a lot, and you can squadron up your ridgerunners as well for 1 fast attack slot.
Elites: Kellemorph, 2 units of hybrids with lash whip and hand flamers.
Fast Attack: 3 units of 2 ridge runners.
Heavy: 3 units of mortars.
HQs and troops.
That list had big problems going second. And I was completely defeated by my opponent running 2 dakkajets. Each one ate one squad each turn.
Hybrids performed better then expected.
I think you are better off loosing 2 CP by taking a patrol.
TBF, from the understanding of the GSC list loosing out on going first and not being able to secure the first strike will always make it fold more or less regardless of how you really built the list. Or atleast that is my perception of it.
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, is there something that speaks against building Brigades for GSC?
Basically the heavy support slot for the most part isn't all that great, and GSC still kind of benefit a lot from bringing 2 subfactions (having a patrol to bring in some CTFAE to have Plan in your pocket and drop a few cheapo acolyte squads around the board who are pretty good at getting into CC without support)
I find myself running bat+patrol way more often than brigade. 5 man CTFAE hand flamer acolyte squads are an excellent mix of cheap enough to be objective/secondary grabbers and threatening enough to pose a credible threat.
Also, GSC can have some big, expensive units, it is not actually all that hard to fit everything you need into those 3 slots. A 10-man neophyte squad with 2 heavies and a truck is like 150ish total, a 20-block of acolytes is a lot, and you can squadron up your ridgerunners as well for 1 fast attack slot.
Yeah, thought so, albeit i like the option for having a armored feint via cult ambush shenanigans on leman russes i agree that the heavy slot looks, well, bit overpriced, also the smaller boards don't help in regards to the strategies you could employ, tending to blob in the middle in 9th even more... (not that normal leman russes are any better, also whoever thought once again that a bc is 5pts and the big turret mounted ac should be 15 pts should at this stage consider a diffrent career other then ruleswriting.)
I usually end up bringing trucks full of las neos because while they're not necessarily as efficient as ridgerunners, if I only take the units I own that are currently decent for GSC I end up running out of minis at 1200pts...so I wind up bringing 20-blocks of shotgun neos with flamers and laser neos in trucks just because they perform semi-decently and you gotta put SOMETHING in the 2k list.
Often I end up keeping it simple and running just one battalion super troops-heavy in bladed cog.
All my melee acolytes in a big block of 20 with 3 saws and 1 cutter
Magus with the crouchling bringing the 5+FNP and Might from Beyond, along with a Clamavus to help boost my T2 charge
Jackal Alphus with single minded obsession to try and make sure the ridgerunners kill a big target turn 1
4 ridgerunners, 2 goliath trucks with laser neophytes
And then the objective grabbin' crew with 5 man hand flamer acolyte squads, 20 man shotgun neophyte squad using Lying in Wait, Locus, Kelermorph, Nexos.
The biggest problem atm is I don't know any way to avoid having to field a lot of worthless anti-GEQ firepower because GEQ just don't fething exist anywhere. I wish I didn't have to bring 40 heavy stubber shots and 80 lasgun shots that will just pointlessly ping off the invincible fething power armor that is and has been 100% of the lists I've played against the past year and a half.
If we had any effective anti-MEQ weapons at all I'd probably use them, but I've tried seismic cannons so many times and they're just pathetically bad and utterly suicidal.
I did ask about seismic cannons and somebody compared it to just taking 3 Neophytes and Neophytes came out very comparable.
I think our best MEQ units are melee acolytes. Saws are good. But VS T5 3 wound people say the cutters a good. Perhaps have them in transports so you can charge from transports? Say some CP on a perfect ambush.
Ridge runners and alphas are good. It is just the rest of the building blocks are hard to balance.
Niiai wrote: I did ask about seismic cannons and somebody compared it to just taking 3 Neophytes and Neophytes came out very comparable.
I think our best MEQ units are melee acolytes. Saws are good. But VS T5 3 wound people say the cutters a good. Perhaps have them in transports so you can charge from transports? Say some CP on a perfect ambush.
Ridge runners and alphas are good. It is just the rest of the building blocks are hard to balance.
I'm fine with perfect ambushing tbh, small price to pay for a 300ish point cc unit to get into combat almost guaranteed.
I often find myself fielding melee sanctus, kelermorph and locus as anti-MEQ units to be honest. Helen Keler being a reliable means to whack a 5-man marine squad is almost enough to make me want to bring a second detachment just to get 2 of each of 'em.
the_scotsman wrote: I usually end up bringing trucks full of las neos because while they're not necessarily as efficient as ridgerunners, if I only take the units I own that are currently decent for GSC I end up running out of minis at 1200pts...so I wind up bringing 20-blocks of shotgun neos with flamers and laser neos in trucks just because they perform semi-decently and you gotta put SOMETHING in the 2k list.
Often I end up keeping it simple and running just one battalion super troops-heavy in bladed cog.
All my melee acolytes in a big block of 20 with 3 saws and 1 cutter
Magus with the crouchling bringing the 5+FNP and Might from Beyond, along with a Clamavus to help boost my T2 charge
Jackal Alphus with single minded obsession to try and make sure the ridgerunners kill a big target turn 1
4 ridgerunners, 2 goliath trucks with laser neophytes
And then the objective grabbin' crew with 5 man hand flamer acolyte squads, 20 man shotgun neophyte squad using Lying in Wait, Locus, Kelermorph, Nexos.
The biggest problem atm is I don't know any way to avoid having to field a lot of worthless anti-GEQ firepower because GEQ just don't fething exist anywhere. I wish I didn't have to bring 40 heavy stubber shots and 80 lasgun shots that will just pointlessly ping off the invincible fething power armor that is and has been 100% of the lists I've played against the past year and a half.
If we had any effective anti-MEQ weapons at all I'd probably use them, but I've tried seismic cannons so many times and they're just pathetically bad and utterly suicidal.
The seismics at 10ppm seem kinda decent but i feel it overpays for what GW percieves as generalist therefore better, i do think though if you deepstrike a squad it might be worth it to have but so long the better mode is only available at half range so long there's no reason to bother more then once with them...
I do think PG are missing in the list as an option beyond brood brothers, and paying 6 ppm for a 5.5 ppm model with worse synergy feels like a ripoff so the classic allround solution for PEQ is also out...
and the marine issue is in casual a bit on the unbearable side right now, that said, melee acolythes tend to be something i did kinda fear with my horde csm list because ap-1 and a lot of attacks = a lot of dead CSM but 2 w marines? not scared. PEQification of MEQ will make this even worse i think, and AP-1 being handed out like candy on astartes weapons (which csm get because csm use a lot of the same weapons) will make GEQ even less enticing.
Niiai wrote: 10 point for seismic cannon and 6 points for the model, 16 points.
3 models is 18 points. Shoots almost as well and is a whole lot more durable.
1 Seismic cannon in half range is 3x s5 ap-2 d2 shots isn't it? That's .665 unsaved wounds vs new astartes vs .332 unsaved wounds from 3 autogun neos in rapid. So it is roughly twice as efficient pointswise to grab a seismic as it is to put in extra autoguns.
The problem is the unit as a whole is just kind of meh shooting MEQs. Assuming 20pt meqs a double seismic squad deals 2.21 unsaved wounds on average, which is a 27% points return. hand Flamer acolytes are close in terms of efficiency, and become way more efficient if you do end up making the charge roll - though that does generally turn them into a suicide unit, as the three remaining meqs in the squad effortlessly butcher the 5...close combat specialist melee troops.... you know, like they do.
i guess the neophytes have 10 bodies as opposed to 5, but an intercessor has 22% points efficiency shooting into neophytes, and 40% if they both shoot and charge.
"I get a 27% points return against you and then you get a 40% points return against me" ain't it for an "Anti-you specialist" unit build.
I'm almost wondering - and to be clear I have not yet tried this at all - whether melee character spam might be the answer to MEQ-spam armies being the overwhelming norm in the current meta. The ridgerunner is efficient killing tanks, but people aren't bringing tanks to the table atm, they're bringing multiwound MEQs. The most abundant, efficient sources of damage flat 2 and flat 3 that we have access to are mounted on our characters - Patriarchs, Loci, Kelermorphs, Knife Sancti, etc.
Patriarch: 135pts, 3.88 killed MEQ in melee on average, 57% return, takes 1w on average from the remaining 2 MEQ.
5-man 2 saw-colytes: 52pts, 3 killed MEQ in melee on average, takes 2.4 casualties in return from the remaining 2 MEQ, 68% return on average.
5-man pick aberrants with pick sergeant: 150pts, 4.9 MEQ killed on average, no return swing to deal with, 66% points return (assuming you roll perfect 2s with the picks, which is not how it works - if you assume the sergeant survives because of the forces of Murphy's Law, the aberrants take 0.74 wounds in return and only get a 53% points return)
Kelermorph: 2.29 dead MEQs in shooting on average, 53.3% return, no return swing on your turn.
Locus: 1.6 dead MEQs in melee on average, 70% return, 4 remaining squad members kill the locus on the return swing.
Sanctus: 2.05 dead MEQs in melee on average, remaining 3 squad members kill the sanctus on the return swing.
Metamorphs LOL why not: 5 Whip/Flamer/Claw Metamorphs kill 1 MEQ in shooting and 1.79 in melee, takes 2.4 casualties from the remaining 2 MEQ, 68% return on average - hey, they're the same as sawcolytes but they're a bit more reliable because they can't be CC interrupted and they don't deal 95% of their damage just in melee, that's kind of interesting. They also have the 1cp violence unleashed stratagem which is kind of good - it's just a shame that they can't be taken as a 20-man squad or else you might be able to make an argument that they're good competition for a 20-man sawcolyte squad as a deathball.
hmmm.
So it seems like single sancti and loci are efficient on offense, and also come with the nice benefits of being easier to hide around the board being single models instead of 5 models, but they completely die if just one of them gets into combat with an average 5-man MEQ squad alone with no backup vs the saw-colytes who merely mostly die.
Abberrants...actually might be a worthwhile option as a deathball over 20 acolytes with 8 saws and a cult icon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: gang, this seems like an absolutely ridiculous question to be asking, but have we been maybe sleeping on Aberrants in Helix?
hear me out: the struggle with GSC that I've been running into is running out of steam. I have my big ball of nasty lascannon business with my Ridgerunners and my Neophyte squads with 2x mining lasers in goliaths, and I have my Single Minded Obsession Alphus and that's kind of Battle Group A. Main goal: Pick a target for single minded and nuke the crap out of it turn 1, ideally something that can threaten infantry to make it more obnoxious for my opponent to successfully respond to battle group B.
Battle group B is a 20-block of acolytes with 8x special melee weapons, an icon, and at bare minimum an accompanying magus to try and cast MFB and Vigor. Usually I'll leave their buffers at that, I just use A Perfect Ambush to get them in, hopefully pop overthrow the oppressors (lets be real lol my opponents being imperium is like a 99% chance of being good) and then carve up a big chunk of an opponent's army on one objective.
The problem I'm running into is that once I kill the target marked by Obsession and do my big punch, my opponent still has enough gas in the tank to table me around turn 4/5 and because all their units aren't made of wet paper towels it's easier for them to deny me scoring than it is for me to deny them scoring.
it costs about 120 points more in battlegroup B to bring a biophagus with familiar and make the punchy squad a 10-man of aberrants, BUT you don't need the magus since they already have a 5+FNP, you can use a Patriarch with the +1 damage warlord trait to cast MFB on the lumpy lads.
Instead of having vans full of autogun+mining laser neophytes, you can have vans full of hand flamer+saw Acolytes, who can either clear screening chaff turn 1 or attempt a Twisted Helix advance+Charge stratagem.
The name of the game would be sustainable threat - you've got the patriarch, you've got +1S mini-characters like the locus, you've got trucks full of acolytes. Thoughts? Is losing the mining lasers out of the trucks a big deal breaker?
Also abberants at 30 ppm just don't Look nice, (even through khorne eyes , also d3 pick damage ....)
5x8 is...40, right? And 40+20 is 60? Am I going insane and not able to math anymore?
I mean the thing with the acolytes vs the aberrants is just that it feels like the aberrants bring a lot to the table for the point differential vs 20 acos and 8 specials+cult icon. 250 vs 300pts, baseline the acolytes do more damage but the aberrants are naturally quite a bit tougher, do have the ability to bring a double attack to town in twisted helix, and have a few more benefits like 1/2 the table footprint (meaning easier to place in deep strike, easier to have everyone fight in the fight phase) and access to a pretty cheap permanent buffer guy in the Biophagus who has 2 pretty great buffs in +1T and +1A.
I compare who I'd take to buff both of them, and for the acolytes it's a Primus and a Magus, and for the Aberrants its an Abominant and a Biophagus...I feel like I'd rather have the latter than the former, I can give the Abominant the elixir of the prime specimen and he can actually fight unlike the primus can, and I just use the Patriarch to cast Might from Beyond because in TH I'm definitely going to want a patriarch with the +1D warlord trait goodness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an example list to give an idea of what I'm considering:
Twisted Helix Battalion
HQ: Patriarch, might from beyond, warlord trait +1 Damage on his claws
HQ: Abominant, Prime Specimen relic
HQ: Jackal Alphus
Elites: 10x Aberrants, 7 picks, 2 Hammers, Improvised hypermorph (what I have models for)
Elites: Biophagus with a familiar
Elites: Kelermorph
Elites: Locus
Fast: 4x Mining laser/flare Ridgerunners
Fast: 4x Jackals, shotguns and knives, quad with a shotgun and incinerator
Fast: 4x Jackals, shotguns and knives, quad with a shotgun and incinerator
Dedicated: 3x Goliaths
I look at this, I compare with my usual Bladed Cog setup, and I think...this looks good, this looks threatening. I've got the same number of mobile and scoring elements, but I've got more for my opponent to consider, I'm not just a pushover turn 1, every acolyte squad has the threat range of 11"+D6"+charge out of their truck thanks to genetic legacy and they're base T5 with their claws and S9 with their heavy melee weapons. What do I give up? gakky neophyte squads that never did anything for me anyway. i've still got plenty of +1 to hit mining laser and autocannon shots to bring something down T1.
But if my opponent plays dumb or goes first and pushes up I can shove a squad of acolytes into his face turn 1 with MFB. And turn 2 even if they clear the aberrants you've got a buffed up ogreman to deal with still, and a Patriarch, and a couple trucks full of rude dudes.it's not just the one bomb and then hope you can use shooty stuff to skate through.
Automatically Appended Next Post: sidebar: thank god for 3d printers I can have so many freaking acolytes now. I found a file just for legs and torso and I was able to make every single spare acolyte bit I own into a dude.
The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.
but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.
The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.
but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.
The way I look at it, my bomb unit of 20 acos is 250pts, 20 wounds, T3, 5+ armor. thaaaaaaaaaaaats it. If I run them in cog it's a 6++ as well.
Aberrants are T4 base, sometimes T5 depending on how you roll with the biophagus, 20 wounds, 5+ armor, 5+FNP, and -1 damage if you throw multidamage weaponry at them. They have a stratagem to be only targetable if they're the closest unit, and a stratagem to boost up to a 4+FNP.
They're more expensive by 50pts, and they are less effective offensively if they don't get the +1A from the biophagus, but if they get a really sweet roll on perfect ambush and get the perfect multicharge off they can decide to pile and fight twice.
Ogryn Brutes don't deep strike, don't have any stratagems and though I haven't actually done the math I suspect T5 W3 5+ is acutally worse durability than T4 W2 5+ 5+++ against most weaponry.
The issue why i find Abberants bad is that i find the corresponding , now in legends findable unit of ogryn berserkers better but already not good enough to be fielded.
but i think you might be onto something with them, but at W2 and a T 4 with a 5+++ is not what i call durable enough.
The way I look at it, my bomb unit of 20 acos is 250pts, 20 wounds, T3, 5+ armor. thaaaaaaaaaaaats it. If I run them in cog it's a 6++ as well.
Aberrants are T4 base, sometimes T5 depending on how you roll with the biophagus, 20 wounds, 5+ armor, 5+FNP, and -1 damage if you throw multidamage weaponry at them. They have a stratagem to be only targetable if they're the closest unit, and a stratagem to boost up to a 4+FNP.
They're more expensive by 50pts, and they are less effective offensively if they don't get the +1A from the biophagus, but if they get a really sweet roll on perfect ambush and get the perfect multicharge off they can decide to pile and fight twice.
Ogryn Brutes don't deep strike, don't have any stratagems and though I haven't actually done the math I suspect T5 W3 5+ is acutally worse durability than T4 W2 5+ 5+++ against most weaponry.
Grav chute insertionis the answer, guaranteed D2 is imo important and T5 W3 is a generally more annoying profile if stuck in.
That said you are of course right in regards to why brutes are not used.
I just don't see these baseline as compelling enough to consider either though.
I do think though that there's the option for either helix or bladed cog.
Another take is,to just play the annoying game i think. 30 are a non issue, 50 of these start to get annoying, but what if you field say 80? 90? that's still comparatively cheap and with the inante deepstrike if you treat it just like an extended deployment zone might well be worth a consideration.
MSU Neophytes, some deep struck, arround an iconward with the +3 to aura trait? 5+/6++/6+++ isn't that shaby durability wise for a 6ppm model and you can stock up on mining lasers still
I'm right there with this abberrant thinking, I've been looking at if bladed cog abberants have place in a linebreaker/repair teleport homer/pierce the veil/maybe a wwswf sdvondary lineup.
Stick em with a biophagus and iconward under bladed cog and you can get t5, 6++, 4+++ rerolling 1s and they can screen characters and tank for a lurk in the shadow msu acolyte squad/magus performing actions.
Thats a durable unit hanging out in the opponents back line and will draw a hell of a lot of fire away from our more fragile elements rushing forward.
That’s still not that durable though. And it’s a helluva investment in points, CP and character slots.
Biophagus, minimum squad of aberrants and an iconward costs like 240pts for ten pretty durable wounds and some decent melee output. Doesn’t sound worth
4+++ rerolling 1s is a reduction of 58% of all incoming damage. Add in the -1d and there's no reliably good weapon profiles to shoot at these things (even a melta at half range averages 1.9 damage).
I'm looking at going all the way a running the 435 point, 10 model unit + iconward + biophagus + familiar.
C4790M wrote: That’s still not that durable though. And it’s a helluva investment in points, CP and character slots.
Biophagus, minimum squad of aberrants and an iconward costs like 240pts for ten pretty durable wounds and some decent melee output. Doesn’t sound worth
IMO, there are two tacks you can take when looking at how to take advantage of GSC armywide deep strike.
Path 1 would be to go for the easy +2" to charge via the CTFAE and Clamavus, and do kind of a scattershot approach - min size units, minimum investment, accept that 58% will get in and 42% won't
Path 2 is to have a buffed-up 'bomb unit' that is a maxed-out squad that you're committing to using strats, psychic powers, etc on to make it capable of dealing a ton of damage and hopefully offsetting the inevitable tempo loss that GSC suffer from being basically forced into deep striking their melee units.
I've had basically no success with path 1 in 9th. the smaller board size and proliferation of anti-DS abilities strats etc have made that vastly too easy to counter. Honestly, I haven't done it since we got swapped to regular DS instead of the random table of pain in the 8th codex.
So I'm not really comparing 5 aberrants to..whatever equivalent points of acolytes/metamorphs/I guess purestrains or something lmao - I'm comparing 10 aberrants plus buffers and considering strats/psychic powers to 20 acolytes to 10 metamorphs.
10 aberrants are the most expensive bomb unit (310pts minimum because I think the hypermorph has to have a hammer?) but they also have buffers that are useful outside of the buff they'll be giving the bomb (abominant/patriarch instead of magus because you don't need 2 powers to fully buff them as they already have 5+FNP) 20 Acolytes with all the bells and whistles are cheaper at 250 but the Primus and Magus I typically stick them with are just sunk cost, they do basically nothing after I use them to buff the bomb - one of the primus' two abilities literally expires after the bomb obliterates the target unit.
Metamorphs I don't think have teeth purely because of the unit cap of 10. however, whipmorphs do have the edge use case of bringing in alongside the bomb unit turn 2 because they don't have the usual vulnerability to 2CP interruption.
I've also tried using allied patrol of tyranids with a maxed-out block of 20 genestealers with the "ignore AP-1 and AP-2" biomorph, extended carapaces, Jormungandr and a broodlord casting Catalyst, which is...actually interesting. Kind of a fun pairing with a super shooting heavy list because unlike the other bomb options, they actually start on the board, and just kind of roll up, maybe start doing the action that forces units to move into the center of the board to stop it.
I am confused, atleast in the german dex i am not forced to field an hypermorph, but can "upgrade" 1/5 into one. Mind upgrade is ridicoulus considering the price of the stopsign / hammer.
Not Online!!! wrote: I am confused, atleast in the german dex i am not forced to field an hypermorph, but can "upgrade" 1/5 into one. Mind upgrade is ridicoulus considering the price of the stopsign / hammer.
5pt upgrade to go from:
2A S5 AP-2 Dd3
2A S5 AP-1 d1 (w/rend)
to
3A S10 Ap-3 D3
1A S5 AP-1 D1
Seems like a complete no-brainer to me. I'd always run a hammer hyper if I was running aberrants.
Even the stop sign....eeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh maybe my brain is totally melted by sunk cost fallacy but, going from 2 D3d attacks 2 D1d attacks to 6 D3d attacks 1 D1d attack for the cost of 2/3 of a model... kinda...maybe...doesn't seem THAT stupid? Would it be a much more compelling choice at 15pts instead of 20, or at AP-2 instead of AP-1, yes. but it is a way to increase the damage cap of a squad, and it does make MfB and the +1A biophagus upgrade add 2 good quality attacks instead of 1 good and 1 less good quality.
if you're being stingy (and I dont think it ever makes sense to be stingy with aberrants tbh, they're too much of a minimum investment) upgrading the squad to have a sign hypermorph does actually increase their average damage output to the point where they wipe a 5-man MEQ squad unbuffed on average rolls. Adding a 6th squadmember does that as well but is 10pts more expensive and makes them more awkward to put in transports.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hammers make little sense (IMO at least) on aberrants as an upgrade because while they do double damage output vs Vehicles/TEQ they vastly reduce damage output vs GEQ/MEQ compared to picks. They're more of a side-grade and unless they get a boost in terms of removing the hit penalty or letting them keep the claw attacks like the picks do they don't make sense. But +5pts to get the hammer AND get an extra attack+tail attack with it does make sense.
Ran a successful first test run of the "Ridgerunners not Neophytes, Aberrants not Acolytes" setup of my list.
Played against Space Marines, Ultramarines chapter tactics. Opposing list had Bolt Rifle intercessors as troops, 2 squads of Eliminators, a plasma primaris dreadnought, 2 squads of plasma inceptors in deep strike with a second jump pack captain, a big squad of flamer aggressors, bladeguard veterans and a judicator in an inceptor? that's not right, the little brick. Captain and Lieutenant with the troops, and 2 squads of eradicators.
I had 3 "turn 1 threat" troops of 10 acolytes with 4 heavy melee weapons each in Goliaths, a unit of 4 ridgerunners and a jackal alphus. A deep strike bomb squad of 10 aberrants, biophagus with familiar, abominant and a patriarch with might from beyond (who was planning on starting on the board) and then scoring units of 2 hand flamer acolyte squads, 2 barebones jackals, a kelermorph and a locus.
I took teleport homer, engage on all fronts, and the mission secondary which was 'surround them' - we played strike force mission 21. My opponent took bring it down, raise banners, and engage on all fronts.
My opponent got first turn but had almost all his anti-tank in deep strike, so only managed to kill 1 truck and not quite kill one acolyte squad. On my turn 1, that acolyte squad got back up almost to full strength, and I killed the dreadnought with all my shooting and advanced and charged an acolyte squad out of a truck with might from beyond to basically wipe out the aggressors. My opponent's deep strike top of turn 2 killed almost all my ridgerunners and the snipers killed my jackal alphus, but I was able to collapse on him with a ton of stuff all at once and use A Perfect Ambush to get the aberrants into the main group of intercessors. By turn 3 I was able to own a whole flank of his board, have my acolyte squads safely chugging away on teleport homer, and though I didn't win huge on points on the board at the end of the game I won like 88 to 25.
Great job! I just had a similar success vs Blood Angels with that same kind of mind-set. Granted, I don't think the Blood Angel list was perfectly optimal (only 4 Sang Guard, included 5 Hellblasters, Relic Sicaran, and Techmarine, no Bladeguard), but I will take that win. Here's the list:
Bladed Cog Battalion Patriarch (Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation, Psychic Powers: Undying Vigor, Mass Hypnosis) + Familiar
Magus (Broodcoven: Single-Minded Annihilation, The Cult's Psyche, Psychic Powers: Might from Beyond, Psychic Stimulus, Relic: The Crouchling) + Familiar
Primus (Broodcoven: Alien Majesty, The Heart of the Creed)
20 Acolytes w/Hand Flamers, Cult Icon, 6x Rock Saws
20 Acolytes w/Hand Flamers, Cult Icon, 6x Rock Cutters
10 Neophytes w/2 Mining Lasers
10 Neophytes w/2 Mining Lasers
10 Aberrants, 3x Hammers, 2x Heavy Improvised Weapons
3 Ridgerunners w/Heavy Mining Lasers & Flare Launchers
3 Ridgerunners w/Heavy Mining Lasers & Flare Launchers
1 Goliath Rock Truck
1 Goliath Rock Truck
The plan here was simple. Every turn for 3 turns something tries to get into my opponent's face with the benefit of Psychic Stimulus and Might From Beyond. The +2 to cast from the combo of the Cult's Psyche and the Crouchling helps accomplish this. Turn 1, the Ridgerunners and Trucks get the benefit of Single-Minded Annihilation to help clear the way, and later turns get the benefit of a Primus. Ideally, the Primus is choosing the reroll to wound for the Hand Flamers so that they can come down, flame one thing, then charge another using Perfect Ambush.
I found that by reducing the number of units I was fielding, I was also better able to focus my brain on what needed to be where and when. The Trucks could also get a unit of Neophytes to a location for an action, but the Aberrants were all stars. Despite really flubbing turn 1 (failed to get off Might from Beyond, they weren't able to kill a unit off 4 Sang Guards and the accompanying Sang Priest Selfless Healer - just got 2 of them and 3 wounds off the priest), they were able to survive the return hits thanks to the strat to give them a 4+ FnP. This kept my opponent locked in and made sure that when the Acolytes came down, they had more room to choose attack vectors from. Game ended 95 to 45 in my favour! Actually was 35, but he wasn't battle ready, so I'm giving him those 10 points here for a more relevant score.
Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.
the_scotsman wrote: Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.
Well, Perfect Ambush each time and usually a CP still at the ready for rerolling a failed charge makes failing less likely (66% chance at making the charge if you're committed to a reroll even if you roll a 1 for Perfect Ambush) (though I didn't have that CP on my final turn in the game, making that charge REALLY scary), is certainly a risk - but having less than enough dudes to do things I find is a greater risk. Plus, this was just a single game so far. My next test will be against a pretty dang good Ad Mech player - so we'll see.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But also, that's why I want to try and come down, hand flamer one thing under the gaze of the Primus or Magus, and then charge another - so a charge flub should still mean that the unit didn't totally waste its turn.
the_scotsman wrote: Damn, that's a ballsy list - you don't find you're constantly flubbing charge rolls with the deep strikers? Not even a clamavus! I'm guessing you mostly focus on kill secondaries then, since you don't have any microunits for racking up points.
Well, Perfect Ambush each time and usually a CP still at the ready for rerolling a failed charge makes failing less likely (66% chance at making the charge if you're committed to a reroll even if you roll a 1 for Perfect Ambush) (though I didn't have that CP on my final turn in the game, making that charge REALLY scary), is certainly a risk - but having less than enough dudes to do things I find is a greater risk. Plus, this was just a single game so far. My next test will be against a pretty dang good Ad Mech player - so we'll see.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But also, that's why I want to try and come down, hand flamer one thing under the gaze of the Primus or Magus, and then charge another - so a charge flub should still mean that the unit didn't totally waste its turn.
You can't reroll the roll for perfect ambush anymore FYI - the reroll strat strictly defines what you can reroll now. But I guess that makes sense. Just seems like a super tricky list to pilot in 9ths new scoring stucture, which incidentally seems to be something a lot of my opponents are falling for. For example, in this game, my opponent had these huge units of intercessors and aggressors all blocked up to try and take advantage of stratagems and the chapter master reroll for one unit, and he just ended up not able to score stuff, basically. He picked two secondaries just based on them happening semi-automatically (engage and BID) despite them being not particularly efficient to score against my army (his force was slow, and was going to have to rely on force concentration to try and keep safe from my stuff, and so he was only ever really going to be able to score 2 from Engage turn 2+, and BID is just not the auto-win it used to be...my seven vehicles offered him 10 points total, but he still picked it because he just didn't have stuff designed to score points that he could spare to perform actions and junk.)
Just by having a decent, coherent plan to rack some points up, I felt like I was in the position of "welp, as long as you dont' completely obliterate me by turn 3 I think I win."
The abberants started on the board? How did you get the charge off with them? APA out of blip?
Here's the reasons why, in order of application;
#1 - Mission had us started 18" away from each other.
#2 - I play by the RAW of the blip rule, which has been sent in multiple times and never answered, so presumably the RAW is the way it's done. When you deploy out of blips, the first model placed down ONLY has to be within 1 inch of the blip. The rest of the unit has to be within 6" of that model AND within your deployment zone. This means a single-model unit can appear outside your deployment zone. This allows the Goliath Truck to be outside the deployment zone.
#3 - The Aberrants can leave the transport so long as all of them as wholly within 3" of it, and then move 6". That's essentially 9" off the front of the truck. In THIS game, that already put me less than 5" away from them.
#4 - However, in the list's plan, such as when we start further away, Psychic Stimulus allows the unit to advance and charge. This could allow the Aberrants an additional d6" closer.
#5 - If you desperately need it (though over-extending this much can likely be a bad decision), you can also use A Perfect Ambush when you "set up a unit on the battlefield" when disembarking from a transport, which would allow the Aberrants an additional d6" out of the transport, if required.
The abberants started on the board? How did you get the charge off with them? APA out of blip?
Here's the reasons why, in order of application;
#1 - Mission had us started 18" away from each other.
#2 - I play by the RAW of the blip rule, which has been sent in multiple times and never answered, so presumably the RAW is the way it's done. When you deploy out of blips, the first model placed down ONLY has to be within 1 inch of the blip. The rest of the unit has to be within 6" of that model AND within your deployment zone. This means a single-model unit can appear outside your deployment zone. This allows the Goliath Truck to be outside the deployment zone.
#3 - The Aberrants can leave the transport so long as all of them as wholly within 3" of it, and then move 6". That's essentially 9" off the front of the truck. In THIS game, that already put me less than 5" away from them.
#4 - However, in the list's plan, such as when we start further away, Psychic Stimulus allows the unit to advance and charge. This could allow the Aberrants an additional d6" closer.
#5 - If you desperately need it (though over-extending this much can likely be a bad decision), you can also use A Perfect Ambush when you "set up a unit on the battlefield" when disembarking from a transport, which would allow the Aberrants an additional d6" out of the transport, if required.
The last point it not applicable
Perfect Ambush
"You cannot use this Stratagem on a unit that disembarked from a TRANSPORT this turn."
The reason I asked is your use of Monstrous Vigour isn't legal then. Has to be the start of your turn and you cant use stratagems on units inside of transports.
This is the thing I'm butting up against on my plan, being in a place to get to 4+++
dammit wrote: The reason I asked is your use of Monstrous Vigour isn't legal then. Has to be the start of your turn and you cant use stratagems on units inside of transports.
This is the thing I'm butting up against on my plan, being in a place to get to 4+++
Oddly you can use that stratagem if they're in Deep Strike but not inside a vehicle
Monstrous Vigour states it must be used at the start of your turn, but to be fair it then instructs you to select an aberrant unit from your army. Doesn't explicitly state that unit has to be on the battlefield, but I've always read it as requiring the unit to be on the battlefield from the start of the turn.
Could be huge if you could use it on aberrants not yet on the table...
Is that still the rule? I remember it being a rule in 8th, but I don't know if I've seen that rule in 9th. If so, then you're right, and I totally cheated my opponent.
Yarium wrote: Is that still the rule? I remember it being a rule in 8th, but I don't know if I've seen that rule in 9th. If so, then you're right, and I totally cheated my opponent.
Nope, it changed in 9TH so you can use stratagems on units off the table
#2 - I play by the RAW of the blip rule, which has been sent in multiple times and never answered, so presumably the RAW is the way it's done. When you deploy out of blips, the first model placed down ONLY has to be within 1 inch of the blip. The rest of the unit has to be within 6" of that model AND within your deployment zone. This means a single-model unit can appear outside your deployment zone. This allows the Goliath Truck to be outside the deployment zone.
#3 - The Aberrants can leave the transport so long as all of them as wholly within 3" of it, and then move 6". That's essentially 9" off the front of the truck. In THIS game, that already put me less than 5" away from them.
#4 - However, in the list's plan, such as when we start further away, Psychic Stimulus allows the unit to advance and charge. This could allow the Aberrants an additional d6" closer.
so i just checked that, because that is ridicoulus, and even in the german book you are correct, that single model units can leave and by extension that can be i guess still abused.
I mean, that is pretty huge as in a goliath or chimera huge. Shame though on the later since you only can carry broodbrothers with that.
#2 - I play by the RAW of the blip rule, which has been sent in multiple times and never answered, so presumably the RAW is the way it's done. When you deploy out of blips, the first model placed down ONLY has to be within 1 inch of the blip. The rest of the unit has to be within 6" of that model AND within your deployment zone. This means a single-model unit can appear outside your deployment zone. This allows the Goliath Truck to be outside the deployment zone.
#3 - The Aberrants can leave the transport so long as all of them as wholly within 3" of it, and then move 6". That's essentially 9" off the front of the truck. In THIS game, that already put me less than 5" away from them.
#4 - However, in the list's plan, such as when we start further away, Psychic Stimulus allows the unit to advance and charge. This could allow the Aberrants an additional d6" closer.
so i just checked that, because that is ridicoulus, and even in the german book you are correct, that single model units can leave and by extension that can be i guess still abused.
I mean, that is pretty huge as in a goliath or chimera huge. Shame though on the later since you only can carry broodbrothers with that.
Yeah, that actually is a big deal, and it makes my list setup fairly potent. I think it makes sense if you're going the 'Acolytes in trucks' route, if a goliath truck is..what, 4" long?
4"+3"+2"+6"+D6".. 21.5" average, that's a do-able turn 1 charge even on a standard map.
dammit wrote: I honestly wasn't trying to rain on your parade, I was really happy to see the aberrants working out and was hoping to copy it.
Haha, all good! We're good chaps, and so we laughed it off and said that, obviously, we'll need a re-match . Mistakes like these, when taken in stride, do not lead to feel-bad's, but rather to excitement as it gives a chance to reclaim our honour!
Well, I was told the way I ran them wasn't entirely legal (as I used a strat on them at a time that I could not have).
But, the way I ran them was as a group of 10 in a truck. Here's the relevant deployment shenanigan:
#2 - I play by the RAW of the blip rule, which has been sent in multiple times and never answered, so presumably the RAW is the way it's done. When you deploy out of blips, the first model placed down ONLY has to be within 1 inch of the blip. The rest of the unit has to be within 6" of that model AND within your deployment zone. This means a single-model unit can appear outside your deployment zone. This allows the Goliath Truck to be outside the deployment zone.
#3 - The Aberrants can leave the transport so long as all of them as wholly within 3" of it, and then move 6". That's essentially 9" off the front of the truck. In THIS game, that already put me less than 5" away from them.
#4 - However, in the list's plan, such as when we start further away, Psychic Stimulus allows the unit to advance and charge. This could allow the Aberrants an additional d6" closer.
My plan was, and would remain, to throw them into my opponent turn 1 with the purpose of either missiling an enemy unit, or hitting their lines to move-block them. If an opponent can't get out of their deployment zone because an enemy unit is blocking their movement path, then they can't get to other objectives, and that can force them to stick on just 1.
In this game, my opponent had some units with Fly, so he was able to still make it out to other objectives through that screen, though it did force his Relic Sicaran and Primaris Bikers to be stuck, which allowed a squad of Nerophytes in the other truck to high-tail it towards an objective and successfully survive there until my next turn to start scoring me primaries without the threat of getting butchered by Blood Angels in close combat.
If I couldn't reliably missile the Aberrants, I'd probably have the vehicle zoom its way to either an objective in the same way I did the Neophytes, or I'd try to hide it so the unit could perform the job of a missile in a successive turn.
It's one of our base psychic powers in the codex. Warp Charge 6, pick a friendly unit within 18". That unit can advance and charge AND Always Fights First in combat. Quite helpful this edition for a missile unit that survives the fight, as any counter-charges against them only get 1 smack at you before you get a chance to smack back with the Aberrants
It's one of our base psychic powers in the codex. Warp Charge 6, pick a friendly unit within 18". That unit can advance and charge AND Always Fights First in combat. Quite helpful this edition for a missile unit that survives the fight, as any counter-charges against them only get 1 smack at you before you get a chance to smack back with the Aberrants
Oh.
....Huh. Honestly, never considered that power. However, I don't think i've ever experienced an opponent trying to counter-smack my melee bomb with melee units, they've always just shot them. Just interesting to note that there's an alternative to the genetic legacy stratagem.
Another interesting tool to consider is the 2cp stratagem Lurk in the Shadows.
Now that cover in 9th edition is by model, a unit being 'in cover' is vastly easier to achieve than ever before, as you really just need one model to be in terrain in order to pop it off. It takes some coordination, but if you throw suicidal chaff units like jackals and ridgerunners up and around the bomb unit as it heads in, or into the center of the board while the bomb clears a flank, you can prevent the other flank from retaliating against the bomb unit at all for 2cp. Unlike monstrous vigor you get to pop it at the beginning of your enemy's shooting, so there's no need to coordinate it well before they take any fire.
Not something you can always set up, and it's often not the best for use with your big forward bomb, but it's a tool I've been much more aware of the usefulness of recently since I've been running more acolytes in more places around the board - if you use a squad to clear out an opponent's deep strikers, you can pop 2cp to prevent your opponent from responding by shooting that now exposed acolyte unit with a long range shooter like some intercessors.
the_scotsman wrote: ....Huh. Honestly, never considered that power. However, I don't think i've ever experienced an opponent trying to counter-smack my melee bomb with melee units, they've always just shot them. Just interesting to note that there's an alternative to the genetic legacy stratagem.
A lot of my opponents are Space Marines, and Marines... they like to punch! It is bananas how many attacks just 3 bikes get on the charge. To better break through a move-block, my opponents counter-charge rather than fall back and shoot so that they can pile in and consolidate to move forward as much as possible. Using this power on them punishes them a bit for doing that. If I can tri-point something as well, this will again help in the case that there are multiple charges going off. It's like a free 2CP interrupt.
Even for their points, they're still the most durable hammer unit we have, and they've always performed well for me! While you're at it, why not pick yourself up an AoS slaughterpriest and convert him into an abominant?
You never know, they might be due a renaissance when we finally get our new codex...
Even for their points, they're still the most durable hammer unit we have, and they've always performed well for me! While you're at it, why not pick yourself up an AoS slaughterpriest and convert him into an abominant?
You never know, they might be due a renaissance when we finally get our new codex...
ahaha i take it you saw my new project
i thought about it, but i have a lot of bloodletter legs and bodies still around as i have hellswords and chaos marines bits... So i guess my abomination will be more abominable then your average abomination if i ever get around to it. (and yes i got a 40mm base ready for something like that)
i'd say the iconward is a better option because he also has utility for stuff other then aberrants?
but the cost is also higher.
I am also a bit torn on the Augur arrays on the Leman russes.
I assume the truck is for the aberrant shenanigans from yarium?
Wouldn't a Magus not be a good idea aswell?
Advance + Charge might well help out even more?
Has anybody had success with using multiple rock grinders as a semi speedy melee option? I envision using ML neophytes in trucks to hold middle objectives and draw fire with the rock grinders providing a turn-two melee/incinerator counter punch.
canonized wrote: Has anybody had success with using multiple rock grinders as a semi speedy melee option? I envision using ML neophytes in trucks to hold middle objectives and draw fire with the rock grinders providing a turn-two melee/incinerator counter punch.
Rockgrinders arent awful, but they're not a great melee unit IMO.
I've had decent success with an all armored list setup, with 5-man hand flamer aco squads in rockgrinders, 10-man laser neo squads in trucks with a few ridgerunners in there as well, but the main problem with guns-focused gsc lists is there's just not much that can actually hold its own against the competition from other codexes, because we have exactly one aura that works on vehicles, 1-2 decent stratagems, no cult creeds... basically it kinda feels like running an 8th ed index army against a 9th ed codex army after you've done your big 'single minded obsession+jackal alphus aura" combo to totally whack one enemy unit.
Too much of the codex is dedicated to helping out melee infantry to not make that a central hub around which the list rotates.
canonized wrote: Has anybody had success with using multiple rock grinders as a semi speedy melee option? I envision using ML neophytes in trucks to hold middle objectives and draw fire with the rock grinders providing a turn-two melee/incinerator counter punch.
Rockgrinders arent awful, but they're not a great melee unit IMO.
I've had decent success with an all armored list setup, with 5-man hand flamer aco squads in rockgrinders, 10-man laser neo squads in trucks with a few ridgerunners in there as well, but the main problem with guns-focused gsc lists is there's just not much that can actually hold its own against the competition from other codexes, because we have exactly one aura that works on vehicles, 1-2 decent stratagems, no cult creeds... basically it kinda feels like running an 8th ed index army against a 9th ed codex army after you've done your big 'single minded obsession+jackal alphus aura" combo to totally whack one enemy unit.
Too much of the codex is dedicated to helping out melee infantry to not make that a central hub around which the list rotates.
I want to run an armored list as well. Was thinking of using the innate fighters creed (which I believe would work on cult rockgrinders) which, when combined with a primus, would have the grinders hitting on 3s and re-rolling 1s. Seems like a nice amount of attacks and durability (not to mention the twin heavy flamer and transport capacity) for a relatively cheap unit.
The text of Innate Fighters says: "When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model with this cult creed in a turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a heroic intervention, re-roll a hit roll of 1." The rockgrinder is permitted to take a cult creed, so I don't see why it wouldn't benefit from Innate Fighters. It should also work (badly) with Hunter's instincts and with Devout Worshippers.
I messed around a lott with the points. Like cutting a ridge runner to have a Goliath rock grinder to transport 5 abberants. (it is only a small price increase to get better T and melee potensial as well as transports.) Experimenting with abberants in the rockrgunder and other units in the Goliath. On and on it went. In the end this is what I settled on.
I want ranged weapons. My usual opponent has 2 dakkajets who eat infantry. And while I try not to tailor VS him I do need something so I do not die. I have tryed 110 infantry and they die enn mass VS dakkajets.
So 6 ridge runners and 2 leman russes perform this well. The multi melta 9th edition profile is so good they make a 24 kill zone for vehicles. The augor array essentially is a "free" lascannon as long as I have a lascannon, or a battle cannon if that hits. Very good for 5 points.
9th edition battles are over very fast, so I need to have a melee threat in my deployment zone to punish anybody moving up. If I have superior ranged firepower (could very well be with this list) they the the opponent must come to me or play objectives. The abberants are performing this jobb.
The big acolyte squad is good and performs the a perfect ambush stratagem where needed. The shotgun squad use laying in wait to deny an objective and shoot them off. So this are 5 CP that are 'locked in' most games.
The mortar and 3 'naked' acolyte groups are to grab objectives. Probably deploy scrambles and possible other seconderies.
I have not tried chimera yet, but 2 heavy flamers for 85 points seems reasonable on paper and a good alternative to the flaming acolyte trucks. (2 S5 heavy flamers for 85 points VS 2 autocannons and 10 S3 Hand flamers for 185 points.) The flamer brood brothers inside I am less confident about. For 20 points more they could be another chimera and probably better.
And that is the list. If I could find points for a magus I probably would but I am not sure they are worth it. 25 points for a stop sign would also be amazing. But I think I would go for a chimera instead if I could choose.
The text of Innate Fighters says: "When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model with this cult creed in a turn in which it made a charge move, was charged or performed a heroic intervention, re-roll a hit roll of 1." The rockgrinder is permitted to take a cult creed, so I don't see why it wouldn't benefit from Innate Fighters. It should also work (badly) with Hunter's instincts and with Devout Worshippers.
Codex page 108:
"All INFANTRY and BIKER units with this ability gain a cult creed...."
....except BROOD BROTHERs
And GENESTEALERS
We ain't the worst faction in the game for no reason, boyo, you don't GET to have any special rules on your vehicles, not even the <cult> ones! you get blip deployment and you like it, meanwhile your space marine opponent's vehicles get chapter tactics, doctrines, and superdoctrines, enjoy the Very Fair Fight TM!
All custom creeds are worse than codex creeds due to lack of Strat/Relic/Trait many of which are extremely critical abilities. Even the combos that on certain units might be very slightly better generally get overshadowed - infantry can move and fire heavy + reroll hits with mining lasers might SEEM slightly better than infantry move and fire heavy + infantry get a 6++, but the second one also comes with an amazing 1cp combat stratagem, a warlord trait that grants a 6" aura of reroll all wounds, a relic that gives several characters a 3++ invuln save, and a psychic power that grants a 5+ FNP.
Obviously, GW realized this when they went and gave space marines the supplement system, that nobody was going to give up 6 warlord traits 6 relics 6 psychic powers 12 stratagems etc to maybe very slightly get a better army wide subfaction trait....but then they just shrugged and said "feth it" and forced everyone else go give up their...one...of all those things...
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Niiai wrote: I messed around a lott with the points. Like cutting a ridge runner to have a Goliath rock grinder to transport 5 abberants. (it is only a small price increase to get better T and melee potensial as well as transports.) Experimenting with abberants in the rockrgunder and other units in the Goliath. On and on it went. In the end this is what I settled on.
I want ranged weapons. My usual opponent has 2 dakkajets who eat infantry. And while I try not to tailor VS him I do need something so I do not die. I have tryed 110 infantry and they die enn mass VS dakkajets.
So 6 ridge runners and 2 leman russes perform this well. The multi melta 9th edition profile is so good they make a 24 kill zone for vehicles. The augor array essentially is a "free" lascannon as long as I have a lascannon, or a battle cannon if that hits. Very good for 5 points.
9th edition battles are over very fast, so I need to have a melee threat in my deployment zone to punish anybody moving up. If I have superior ranged firepower (could very well be with this list) they the the opponent must come to me or play objectives. The abberants are performing this jobb.
I agree that a melee threat in your DZ turn 1 is a must in case you run into an opponent with a highly aggressive list, but I have a conspiracy theory that 9th ed games are only over fast because people are playing like its hyperaggressive nowhere to hide 8th edition and constructing their lists around everything dying instantly and everything always needing to be turn 2 tempo or bust.
I tried so hard to make the turn 2 tempo nothing else matters type list work, with the huge block of shooting units in the super-scary auras turn 1 to remove a big threat, then a big bomb unit turn 2 buffed to high heaven and spending all the CP.
But I think "play like the game has 5 turns" is actually a better, more workable strategy the majority of the time.
I agree. Most of my games have been swingy and over before T5. But how do you do that though? My ork opponent is up in my face T1 with da jump. Dakkajets taking out glass cannons. Morkanaught walking up shooting. Bomebreaker ready to counter charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I agree. Most of my games have been swingy and over before T5. But how do you do that though? My ork opponent is up in my face T1 with da jump. Dakkajets taking out glass cannons. Morkanaught walking up shooting. Bomebreaker ready to counter charge.
If you're in a heavy "they're in my face turn 1" meta, consider Scout Sentinels. They have to start deployed and not blipped, but if they do you can Scout move them 9" forward to zone areas out from Da Jump, or to get a head-start on jumping to objectives covered by Nurglings.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, Very Fair Fight TM indeed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got a rematch vs the same Blood Angels player tomorrow, who will likely have a more tuned up list. Let's see if I can make the magic happen twice!
Dakkajets have 9 essentially bs3+ S6 Ap-1 shots, I don't feel personally like 2 of them are a world-ending threat to me except to stuff like jackals early on.
I would just suicide a cheap squad of jackals out directly right on the line of scrimmage because I know theyre the only target for the jets, let the boyz jump in 9" from those and then not give them much to charge behind that, then clear them out with hand flamers and stubbers and such the next turn. Main thing is just continuing to deep strike stuff as far into the corners and edges of the board as possible and keep the opponent from being able to create a deathball.
6+d3 s9 ap-2 dd3 attacks on the charge is not to be scoffed at; that the most points efficient way for us to get that quality of attacks.
Note that while they dont get cult creeds, they are valid targets for clamavus/primus, psychic stimulus and undying vigour.
1cp to ignore ap-2, 1cp to count as top bracket for the turn, 1cp for d3 mortal wounds after a charge. This is a durable unit that can definitely run a durable unit off an objective, with a possible 12+3d6 threat range.
As a transport I don't think it works because 6 capacity isn't really enough for us, and you lose the open topped.
Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
I am. Or rather the two of them are very good at destroying what ever 14 guardsmen they want dead each turn. That makes it very hard to hold objectives. And they also do fine work VS ridge runners. Of course ridge runners can shoot back but orks either play for board control or just really aggressive.
When 30 ard boys land in my zone, and I need to kill all 30 in one turn to not get green tided it really takes a lot of focus. Slipping some abberants or guard mens out to grab an objective is not possible when the Dakkajet just destroys it. So yes, I am fearing that.
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
I am. Or rather the two of them are very good at destroying what ever 14 guardsmen they want dead each turn. That makes it very hard to hold objectives. And they also do fine work VS ridge runners. Of course ridge runners can shoot back but orks either play for board control or just really aggressive.
When 30 ard boys land in my zone, and I need to kill all 30 in one turn to not get green tided it really takes a lot of focus. Slipping some abberants or guard mens out to grab an objective is not possible when the Dakkajet just destroys it. So yes, I am fearing that.
6,25 Guardsmen/3,33 Wounds to a Ridgerunner/2,5 Wounds to a Goliath Truck per Dakkajet is absolutely ABYSMAL and one of the worst in game options for damage dealing; if you're having problem holding objectives against this kind of firepower, you're in for a lot of pain when you face everything else that dares to use anti-infantry units.
Your opponent is also doing you a favor spending 2 CP PER UNIT OF BOYS just to push their Armour Save to a 5+ so again there's no option other than getting good because your local ork player is already doing his best to let you have fun
"All INFANTRY and BIKER units with this ability gain a cult creed...."
....except BROOD BROTHERs
And GENESTEALERS
We ain't the worst faction in the game for no reason, boyo, you don't GET to have any special rules on your vehicles, not even the <cult> ones! you get blip deployment and you like it, meanwhile your space marine opponent's vehicles get chapter tactics, doctrines, and superdoctrines, enjoy the Very Fair Fight TM!
All custom creeds are worse than codex creeds due to lack of Strat/Relic/Trait many of which are extremely critical abilities. Even the combos that on certain units might be very slightly better generally get overshadowed - infantry can move and fire heavy + reroll hits with mining lasers might SEEM slightly better than infantry move and fire heavy + infantry get a 6++, but the second one also comes with an amazing 1cp combat stratagem, a warlord trait that grants a 6" aura of reroll all wounds, a relic that gives several characters a 3++ invuln save, and a psychic power that grants a 5+ FNP.
Obviously, GW realized this when they went and gave space marines the supplement system, that nobody was going to give up 6 warlord traits 6 relics 6 psychic powers 12 stratagems etc to maybe very slightly get a better army wide subfaction trait....but then they just shrugged and said "feth it" and forced everyone else go give up their...one...of all those things...
What a bummer. The GSC codex feels almost punitive at times.
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
I am. Or rather the two of them are very good at destroying what ever 14 guardsmen they want dead each turn. That makes it very hard to hold objectives. And they also do fine work VS ridge runners. Of course ridge runners can shoot back but orks either play for board control or just really aggressive.
When 30 ard boys land in my zone, and I need to kill all 30 in one turn to not get green tided it really takes a lot of focus. Slipping some abberants or guard mens out to grab an objective is not possible when the Dakkajet just destroys it. So yes, I am fearing that.
Sounds like Rockgrinders would solve your problems, no? They'd be pretty tough for the dakkajets to shift with T7 and the 6+++, and with their clearance incinerators you have a reliable means of hitting the jets (wounding may be tricky but doable), and they'd put the kibosh on the Ard Boyz too.
Another thought for dealing with these pesky flyers your opponent like to run, have you considered Mental Onslaught? I know it's been nerfed, but mortal wounds do bypass their defences pretty effectively.
I think the point that KurtAngle2 was trying to make was that dakkajets and Ard Boyz aren't insurmountable. We do have tools to tackle them, but you're right they can tear through GEQ infantry with good rolling.
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
I am. Or rather the two of them are very good at destroying what ever 14 guardsmen they want dead each turn. That makes it very hard to hold objectives. And they also do fine work VS ridge runners. Of course ridge runners can shoot back but orks either play for board control or just really aggressive.
When 30 ard boys land in my zone, and I need to kill all 30 in one turn to not get green tided it really takes a lot of focus. Slipping some abberants or guard mens out to grab an objective is not possible when the Dakkajet just destroys it. So yes, I am fearing that.
Sounds like Rockgrinders would solve your problems, no? They'd be pretty tough for the dakkajets to shift with T7 and the 6+++, and with their clearance incinerators you have a reliable means of hitting the jets (wounding may be tricky but doable), and they'd put the kibosh on the Ard Boyz too.
Another thought for dealing with these pesky flyers your opponent like to run, have you considered Mental Onslaught? I know it's been nerfed, but mortal wounds do bypass their defences pretty effectively.
I think the point that KurtAngle2 was trying to make was that dakkajets and Ard Boyz aren't insurmountable. We do have tools to tackle them, but you're right they can tear through GEQ infantry with good rolling.
My point is that you never build around Dakkajets and Boys cause they aren't good enough by themselves, don't really show up and EVEN IF THEY DO their profiles are so generically bad (T6 12W 4+ is a Tyranid Harpy/Hive Crones, how many of these do you actually see?) and T4 6+(5+ but this doesn't change anything in this case) that any TAC list/unit choice can decently deal with them; that said you should never ever consider running exceptionally bad units in your army, even if they were somehow (not a credible case though) good against those particular units.
Niiai wrote: Dakkajet is 18 shots, not 9. And BS4* not 3. Point beeing they kill a whole lot of T3 5+ models each turn. The 110 infantry list that Alex made and I recreated just rolls over and dies.
Man, are we really FEARING a 170 pts Dakkajet that kills 7 guardsmen per turn? oh god...
I am. Or rather the two of them are very good at destroying what ever 14 guardsmen they want dead each turn. That makes it very hard to hold objectives. And they also do fine work VS ridge runners. Of course ridge runners can shoot back but orks either play for board control or just really aggressive.
When 30 ard boys land in my zone, and I need to kill all 30 in one turn to not get green tided it really takes a lot of focus. Slipping some abberants or guard mens out to grab an objective is not possible when the Dakkajet just destroys it. So yes, I am fearing that.
Sounds like Rockgrinders would solve your problems, no? They'd be pretty tough for the dakkajets to shift with T7 and the 6+++, and with their clearance incinerators you have a reliable means of hitting the jets (wounding may be tricky but doable), and they'd put the kibosh on the Ard Boyz too.
Another thought for dealing with these pesky flyers your opponent like to run, have you considered Mental Onslaught? I know it's been nerfed, but mortal wounds do bypass their defences pretty effectively.
I think the point that KurtAngle2 was trying to make was that dakkajets and Ard Boyz aren't insurmountable. We do have tools to tackle them, but you're right they can tear through GEQ infantry with good rolling.
My point is that you never build around Dakkajets and Boys cause they aren't good enough by themselves, don't really show up and EVEN IF THEY DO their profiles are so generically bad (T6 12W 4+ is a Tyranid Harpy/Hive Crones, how many of these do you actually see?) and T4 6+(5+ but doesn't change anything in this case) that any TAC list/unit choice can decently deal with them; that said you should never ever consider running expectionally bad units in your army, even if they were somehow (not a credible case though) good against those particular units.
First off, GSC tactica thread, not the ork salt thread. Second, dakkajets sure, but tons of competitive ork lists are building around boyz lol, that's fairly common.
And stating that the dakkajet is bad because it's T6 4+ when that's...the same defensive profile as buggies, the other competitive ork unit type...a bit odd to say the least.
if i were going up against an ork list that involved (presumably) several 30-blocks of boyz, a bonebreaka with something mean in it, a morkanaut granting a KFF and a couple dakkajets, I'd probably work to prioritize crippling my opponent's mobility (snipe out the weirdboy ASAP with a keler or sanctus silencer+jackal alphus shots, use the bomb unit to take down the bonebreaka) and if my list was infantry heavy I'd probably shoot each dakkajet until it was at 1/2 health rather than trying to down 1 then the other. Reducing them from 5+BS to 6+BS is pretty significant.
With my list, though, I wouldn't bother at all. I run mechanized, and dakkajets are just 360 points my opponent isn't using to control the board. make sure you keep Lurking in the Shadows in mind (2CP can't shoot me unless i'm the closest strat) because the mandatory movement of the dakkajets will make it very hard for them to keep the most critical target the closest.
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dammit wrote: Okay, does anyone have eldar in their meta, because I have an eldar player who destroys me whatever I do.
My abberant list just did nothing against him - he killed them at a rate five times what the math would suggest.
What kind of eldar we talking? The most common types I typically see are "big ol' ball of shagnasty buffs on a huge maxed out unit of wraithblades" and "scattered MSU high mobility play to the mission"
The latter is way tougher for us to deal with than the former. The former you have to solve simply by the trick of: DONT FEED YOUR STUFF TO THE WRAITHBALL.
It's really really tempting to drop your bomb unit turn 2 and try to take a chunk out of the fortuned+protected-up wraithblades: that's exactly how you lose. I would try turn 1 and turn 2 to have some kind of suicide unit (jackals, neophyte with Lying in Wait, scout sentinel etc) just Advance right up to them and fething park 1" away, impeding their movement as much as is possible. Turn 2, drop a kelermorph and eat the farseer that's casting buffs for breakfast, then ideally if you're controlling the rest of the board you can send a melee unit suiciding into the wraiths to take a chunk out of them.
I have not done the math. But I doubt flamers who are S<T are good VS flyers. They do jot seem cost efficient on attack. Flamers also have short range and dakkajets are 20 to 60 movement.
And while rockgrinders survive the attacks from the Dakkajet our army do have quite a lot of guard like saves. That is just a fact. Many lists run guard like models in some form and we use them to hold objectives. A 5 man acolyte squad for instance is prime targets for them. A unit many lists use.
It is not doom and gloom and it is not like it is an auto loss VS dakkajets. But they need some sort of awnser or you will loose those object holding units. You can go all five rounds not killing them. But I think you will agree it means bleeding a lot of models. Unless you do an all armored list perhaps.
But how do you kill them? Our prime solution are ridge runners with Alphus bs+. But it is not very cost effecient. Neither is smite. Usually we would charge them, but alas we can not. Dealing with dakkajets means some form of bleeding effeciency in my estemat.
Ork boys are also not undeafeatable. But I find it quite impressive getting 30 of them into my lines T1, especially when I am going second. They can guarantee getting da jump thanks to wear boys. If they are speed freaks they have about 80% chance to get the charge with their rules. Setting up an ideal screening is difficult. And if you castle in the corner they just delay da jump and you can mot castle eternaly.
120 S4 attacks is not ideal. Either we are T3 5+ or we are a vehicle. Come GSC turn 1 you are left with some dilemmas. Commit to little to kill them and they will green tide back in, getting 30 in a charge T2. (Mind you they are unlikely to get all 120 attacks off because of how green tide deployment is worded.) And you need to commit a lot of power to kill 30 T4 5+. Commit to much and you are not getting onto the table grabbing objectives.
And you better grab the objective with something sturdy or the dakkajets plink them down.
I find the main problem VS orks is that they are much tougher then us. They are T4, we are T3. And they play very aggressively. You do not have time to deal with the problems in a timely fashion. The more you commit to deep strike the less we have to fight them turn 1.
Also, their shooting is mainly BS5. That means they have a huge quantaty of shots. Charging orks they have a surprising number of overwatch shots in my experience. It hurts so much.
It is not doom and gloom. But dakkajets are very good VS me at least.
Edit: Reading through the Scotsman comments on orks I see they have accurately guessed the rest of what my ork opponent is using based on what little I dislodged. Quite good understanding of them.
What kind of eldar we talking? The most common types I typically see are "big ol' ball of shagnasty buffs on a huge maxed out unit of wraithblades" and "scattered MSU high mobility play to the mission"
The latter is way tougher for us to deal with than the former. The former you have to solve simply by the trick of: DONT FEED YOUR STUFF TO THE WRAITHBALL.
It's really really tempting to drop your bomb unit turn 2 and try to take a chunk out of the fortuned+protected-up wraithblades: that's exactly how you lose. I would try turn 1 and turn 2 to have some kind of suicide unit (jackals, neophyte with Lying in Wait, scout sentinel etc) just Advance right up to them and fething park 1" away, impeding their movement as much as is possible. Turn 2, drop a kelermorph and eat the farseer that's casting buffs for breakfast, then ideally if you're controlling the rest of the board you can send a melee unit suiciding into the wraiths to take a chunk out of them.
The latest embarrassment for me was asurman+ulthwe dire avenger spam screening for his d-cannons running master of concealment/expert crafters, with shadow spectres and wave serpents to minimally push into midfield objectives.
I simply could not take his stuff faster than he could take mine out and i GG'd bottom of turn three when his I realised I had no way to stop his wraithseer finishing psychic ritual, i'd lost too much.
I often hear how bad eldar are but I just cant see it they seem to be the hardest counter to any list I bring - it seems their shooting is so consistent I can barely survive 2 turns, and they don't die fast enough in close combat to match it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The most embarrassing bit of it all is i've reached the point with this friend where I kinda wanna say I don' want to play against him specifically, I've become that demoralised.
And he doesn't deserve that because he's a great winner (he used to have the annoying habit of telling you how you should be playing your army rather than letting you do that yourself but has stopped doing that) and how can you even think about telling a friend that 'you beat me so much it's stopped being fun, but I have closer matches against our other friends, so I will play against them?
It's also interesting because you're all (presumably) playing the new 9th edition missions with 9th ed rules.
My dad and I have decided to stick with 8th for the time being (tired of the constant codex expenditure), and I've been running my Genestealer Cult with 8th rules and points to some considerable success - against CSM, Space Wolves and even Iron Hands among others.
Did the 9th points update treat us this harshly? Is it the codex creep of other factions? Or are the core rules/missions making the difference?
Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.
....so, something like 5x 10-man DA squads, a wraithseer, 2x shadowspecters, 2x wave serpents, 6x d-cannons, something like that?
The way id tackle that is by spamming a lot of low quality firepower to just make the invuln saves not really matter. Forwarned is going to be a big concern turn 2, so you either want to run Plan or bring something like a Kelermorph with the 3++ relic and try to bait your opponent into forwarning into him rather than the shotgun neos/hsnd flamer acos youll be bringing down after.
D-cannons are pretty simple to kill with mining laser fire at a distance. Obviously they make the buff from the alphus less valuable, id just bring a lot of bodies and aim to knock out a large number of avengers turn 2
D-cannons are pretty simple to kill with mining laser fire at a distance.
Thats not been my experience, they're stacked behind dense/obscuring and when I do get a decent shot it's instantly countered by the 4++ strat + protect.
And the wraithseer is shielded by the spiritseer for it's own 4++
D-cannons are pretty simple to kill with mining laser fire at a distance.
Thats not been my experience, they're stacked behind dense/obscuring and when I do get a decent shot it's instantly countered by the 4++ strat + protect.
And the wraithseer is shielded by the spiritseer for it's own 4++
So...ok, I'm having a hard time seeing how Protect can even be a thing with D-cannons.
They're all their own unit, and I'm assuming he has several. if he protects one, don't...don't shoot that one. Them being stacked behind obscuring terrain is a legitimate point, but ridgerunners are fairly fast and have 12" of range on them. if you have sight to multiple and you shoot one and he pops 4++ and successfully saves it, you just gotta base your response on what damage you do through the 4++. If it's none, switch targets. if you just need to finish it off, maybe throw some stubbers its way or something, it only has a 4+sv and it's not infantry so it can't get cover.
At the end of the day, they're a 70pt unit with T5, W5, 4+, 6" of movement, 24" range and D3 shots D6 damage. A ridgerunner is a 75pt unit with T6, W8, 4+, 6+FNP, 14" of movement, D3 shots D6 damage plus 6 extra shots. It's tough for me to see how eldar psychic powers, S12 and AP-4 is such an insurmountable challenge for your units. Worst comes to worst just sit your vehicles out of their range if they're camping behind obscuring terrain.
a combination of MSU handflamer squads, Lying in Wait shotgun neophyte squads with flamers, stubbers from ridgerunners and atalans with close range firefight should eat 4++ Dire Avenger spam alive, we've got tons of tools to deal with middle price T3 infantry with invuln saves. If you can't kill/cant get to his D-cannons, wraithseer and wave serpents just don't, kill the infantry and win on objectives. Baiting out Forewarned is going to be important to do on the turn you want to bring the hurt to the DA spam - I've often found that opponents think they've caught you in a mistake if you bring down a buffing character first, like if I'm bringing a bomb unit of aberrants I'll drop the Biophagus first. also the kelermorph. That guy is absolute catnip for opponents to try and kill him with Servo Skull/Forewarned/Auspex Scan, and you can use relics like the mark of the clawed omnissiah to make him super difficult to put down.
. Mistakes like these, when taken in stride, do not lead to feel-bad's, but rather to excitement as it gives a chance to reclaim our honour!
