dammit wrote:
The FAQ to Rusted Claw is a interesting boon to jackals.

Changing pistols to assault when advancing doubles their shooting output. 1cp to reroll wounds makes them a little more damaging, at a 30 inch threat range.

But we don't really need more str3 shooting.

However, cult ambush still prevents us arriving post turn 3 which was something I was hoping would go away. so a first turn screen clearing unit has value, and with their threat range they can provide it.

*Page 74 – Cult Creeds, Agile Outriders
Change this Cult Creed to read:
‘If a Biker unit with this Cult Creed Advances, until the end
of the turn, all models in that unit treat all Pistol and Rapid
Fire weapons they are equipped with as Assault weapons.
Biker models with this Cult Creed do not suffer the penalty for
Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’

the_scotsman wrote:
Min units of Acolytes with 2x saws only went up a couple of points. Maybe a unit of that in a HML Rockgrinder would make a good center-holder, in a parking lot with a Jackal Alphus and a couple of Goliath Trucks with ML Neophytes in it?

the structure I'm looking at is something like this:

<Snip>

Basically, the big antitank heavy parking lot camps in the center of the board with the rockgrinders and acos playing bouncer and tanking hits, the bikers roll up the outside, and the Magus+Clamavus+20 acos drops turn 2 as a melee bomb.

Tyel wrote:
I think most used to sneer at 5 man acolyte squads, because a vaguely hot overwatch phase would kill them. I still think there are issues - but in an objective based game, with obsec, maybe they can be useful.

I'm having fantasies on the following:
A Magus,
An Alphus,
6 Neophytes 2 MLs,
6 Goliath Trucks,
9 Ridgerunners
2 Rockgrinders
for 2k points.

I'm not convinced its any good - as you are getting almost nothing from GSC's army rules, and you either get the vaguely decent Hivecult warlord trait, or bladed cog for the 6 squads of Neophytes - but there is something funny in a mech wall. Awful lot of mining laser shots.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, 5 acolytes with cutters or saws is 60pts. That's gonna be something to think about for most units, take it in four-armed emperor for 42% charge chance, and drop in just enough each turn to score yourself the table quarters secondary and cause some havoc/force your opponent to play around them.

in my eyes, the only units in the codex that I just cannot see a use case for are:

-Locus. Poor guy has never really had a purpose, can't see him finding one now.
-Biologus/lesser extent Abominant. Stapled to the worst unit in the codex.
-Aberrants. Just so, so, massively overcosted. 37 points for a heavy power hammer aberrant, 43 points for a TH/SS terminator? Give me a fething break. You can have a pair of saw acolytes for 1 point less.
-Metamorphs. Back in your closet you fugly abominations, you never had a purpose anyway and now you're back to being hilariously overpriced.
-Purestrains. bad for reason they've always been bad. 15pt tyranid genestealers who get obsec and fleet traits might be quasi-usable? Given how much I'm looking at units whose only goal in life is to hunker down and perform actions, I'm kind of feeling allied Jormungandr 3+ armored 'stealers at 15ppm 5-man squads. Nice objectives, nerd, come and get them.
-Probably cult chimera. I still don't think chimeras know what they're supposed to be doing, since transports in 8th and 9th don't actually make your dudes faster and you can't shoot out of 'em.

Everything else, I can see at least one loadout that I can look at and go "Ehhh, maybe?" Neophytes with lasers in trucks. Acolytes either as a bomb or as little min deep strike squads with melee weapons or in rockgrinders. Bikes naked with shotgun and knife or shotgun and pistol in Rusted Claw.

Kitane wrote:
Grand Tournament Pack was leaked.

Specialist Detachments are not allowed in the tournament matched play.

 Khorzain wrote:
On the brighter side of losing the specialist detachments, we have more CP to work with, especially if taking the charge re-roll relic meant you had to pay CP for extra relics, or if you used the +1 to wound stratagem. Considering we already have less CP than in 8th, it's kinda nice not feeling forced to spend it on the specialist stuff, and we still have plenty of great stratagems.

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally (motivated by owning roughly 40 genestealer models from 2 sets worth of Space Hulk) I'm curious about allying in a Jormungandr battalion of just Broodlords+Genestealers with Extended Carapace. Every game I've played or witnessed in this edition so far has hinged around melee units crashing into each other or tanking on objectives. Having a bunch of T4 models with 2+ saves in Light Cover may be better at tanking than anything GSC have got.

Arkengate wrote:
I'm not about to think GSC don't have a chance or is dead. Some things changed, and maybe more so for us than others, but I'll be trying every combination of models I can imagine, as well as combining them with Tyranids to use the strengths of both, or to use them to off-set each others weaknesses.

I really dont like when people basically throw their arms up in despair when they think things wont work.

Yes, we have less staying power than other armies, but we also have a good amount of dakka and the ability to clear things off their objectives if we want. Ridgerunners didnt change in cost and they were already incredible, now theyre even better. We dont need to take and hold all the objectives just more than the enemy holds.

Terrain will be useful for us, LOS blocking mechanisms to offset our low saves and need to charge at times, as will reduced overwatches and improved melee engagement range of 1" and 5" vertically.

Y'all are welcome to be negative; but lets try to turn this conversation into something about what we've done that has worked well and try to figure out what is still great about our glorious cult.

Try not to be disheartened, at the end of the day it is a game. We need to find ways to use this amazing army.

I'll report back in 3 days as I have 5 matches scheduled and I have various styles ill be trying.

the_scotsman wrote:
Here's my current GSC manifesto, spoilered for massive TL;DR

Spoiler:

Genestealer cults got hit incredibly hard by 9th edition, both structurally and in the points changes. They now give up CP if they ever want to have more than one of each character, they have a smaller board which reduces the effectiveness of blips and deep strike, and they have to hold objectives for an entire round to score which, as a glass cannon army, generally isn't super easy.

This is going to be a discussion based on some theoryhammer and some test games on how to use what is, for now at least, most likely the worst army in 40k. What units to use, what units to shelve, and how to try and play the new missions in such a way that you can win games.

The Bad: Let's get these out of the way first. Units that you generally have no reason to use in their current, 9th edition state, and when you might consider including them anyway.

1) Purestrain Genestealers. GSC has always had the problem where they're a teeny tiny little codex with a puddle-deep unit pool, yet they have not one, not two, but THREE units all competing to do the exact same job of being a deep striking glass cannon melee unit with S4 AP-1 D1 attacks that rend on 6s. One of them is generally the best, the one that is almost always the best is acolytes, spoiler alert in 9th edition it's still acolytes but even more so now. Maybe if you could give these guys Cult Traits, like +2" to advance and +1S, or +1 to their invuln saves, or +1" to charge out of deep strike, they'd be worth 17 points per model, but without that, nooooo. If you own genestealer models and you want to use them, consider allying in an allied patrol of Tyranids, where they get Hive Fleet traits, cost 2ppm less base, gain Obsec, and gain a number of useful stratagems and psychic powers you can cast on them with a Broodlord. With the new morale system and the removal of Overwatch, the Patriarch is less useful than he was before, so consider running him as a Broodlord with Catalyst as the HQ of a tyranid patrol. A unit of Jormungandr genestealers with Catalyst up and extended carapace would be an absolute nightmare to get rid of.

2) Metamporphs. GW got real real close to realizing that Hybrid Metamorphs are just Acolytes with no obsec, no special melee weapons, and sliiiightly more melee damage output, so they really ought to be just like 1-2 points more, but then they hit themselves on the heads with a hammer and did the 9th edition points changes, they're 13ppm base now vs 8ppm acolytes :^). The only possibly usable configuration for Metamorphs is the Whip, which brings them down to 11ppm, and turns them into essentially Acolytes that still get to fight even if you interrupt them or make them fight last/you fight first. If units like the Putrid Blightspawn or Slaanesh daemons/marines become the meta thanks to Fight First abilities getting a huge buff in 9th, bringing a couple units of metamorphs might allow you to counter that strategy and clear out a nasty close combat unit that you can't shoot efficiently in the middle of the board. Why do you still consider the claw an upgrade, GW? it makes their damage worse against most targets... nevermind, it's fine.

3) Aberrants (and by extension, the Biophagus AKA Dr. Zoidberg). Say, if you had to take a thunder hammer/storm shield terminator, and you knew that was going to be 42 points in the new edition. And say you were going to take away Shock Assault, ATSKNF, and the armor save and storm shield, and just leave them with the base terminator 5++, all other stats the same, how many points of discount do you figure you'd give that unit? If you said "Five points, that's what all that stuff is worth" then you're thinking like Games Workshop in the 9th edition point values! Abberrants are now an eye-watering 37 points per model, or 33 points per model for the "cheap" version with the power picks. To make matters worse, it seems that Specialist Detachments are going the way of the dodo, so the Annointed Throng may be on its way out. It is INCREDIBLY tough to justify taking one of these dudes now that they're 37ppm right next to a Rock Saw acolyte who's 18ppm, which means of course you're also never going to take their attendant scientist idiot dude who has a 1 in 6 chance of just yeeting one of your crazy expensive aberrants via his special rule that you now CANT REROLL.

4) Sanctus. The sanctus got hosed more by the core rules of 9th than by the points changes. He used to be an interesting niche counter to PSYKER characters that you could put in your list, and when you came up against a particularly nasty psyker you wanted to make sure you killed, you took the special sniper rifle relic with +2 to wound which gave you a 4+ to deal a mortal wound and by extension a perils of the warp. Now, you'd have to commit to that being your relic every time, even when your opponent has no psykers, AND they didn't change its rules at all - it still has a +2 to wound which in 9th doesn't actually give +2 to wound, it gives +1 to wound. He also has a tendency to be sitting somewhere in the back of the battlefield, which in 9th is much closer to the action with the smaller board, and if he's not within 3" of a friendly unit he's not getting any character protection. Sure, he gets a 3+ in cover, but that basically means any opponent who doesn't want to deal with him will just slap him with one lascannon and leave him a pair of smoking boots.

5) Many, many weapon options. The point nerfs made a lot of those classic very very weak and unimpactful GSC weapon options absolute wastes of your time. I can understand making the argument for the Hand Flamer since max squads of hand flamer acolytes did see some tournament play prior to the space marine meta, but why any of these other choices needed to have their costs doubled, more than doubled, or in one case quintupled is beyond me. So, here's a list of options to never ever ever ever take if you have the choice: Bolt Pistol, Cache of Demo Charges, Demo Charge, Grenade Launcher, Hand Flamer, Heavy Mortar, Heavy Stubber (when non-mandatory), Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta, Web Pistol, Webber, Bonesword, Heavy Rock Drill, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Metamorph Claw, Metamorph Talon, Power Axe, Power Hammer, Power Maul, Power Pick. Hope you didn't glue any of your models with any of those things, because now they're only useful in power level games! GW decided that a regular flamer and a flamer with 18" range but only one single shot, those were basically the same level of usefulness right?

The Good: Units that actually seem to have more of a reason to exist than they did before under the new 9th ed rules.

1) Achilles Ridgerunners: They got about the average point nerf for 9th edition of ~20%, but can now move and shoot, which is fairly huge for them. With their handy +1 to wound stratagem, Achilles Ridgerunners (with specifically the auto-take loadout of Heavy Mining Laser and Flare Launcher) are looking quite solid going into 9th. Mobility is fairly strong, pregame movement is fairly strong, and people are most likely going to be taking more vehicles than they did before so vehicle-hunter units are looking good into the initial meta.

2) Goliath Trucks: Same reason as the Ridgerunners, really. Fairly modest point nerf, and for the points, a unit of Bladed Cog neophytes with 2x mining lasers mounted aboard a Goliath is one of our best ways to hold objectives for the new missions. You can perform the same job for cheaper with a unit of Brood Brothers mounted aboard a chimera, but you're giving up a lot of antitank firepower to do so, so that's a trade-off you'll have to figure out for yourself.

3) The Jackal Alphus: Probably the most improved HQ mostly because it doesn't seem like GSC can just rely on dropping in huge numbers of deep striking melee units and tabling their opponent to win the missions anymore. The Alphus can make your Goliaths and the squad inside hit on 3s (thanks to the wording of the open-topped rule and the fact her aura is a Modifier) and as a little cherry on top she can move and shoot her sniper rifle.

4) the Locus: Everybody's going to be taking a second look at units that have "always Fight First" abilities in 9th. S4 Ap-3 D2 on the charge makes him solid for attacking primaris marines, he's easier to hide than a minimum squad of acolytes if you want him to drop in and perform an action, and he costs exactly the same amount. I can definitely see including this dude in a list now.

5) Acolyte Squads (minimum size): Acolytes at max size and min size have always kind of been completely different units. The max size ones you drop them in, spend a ton of buffs and CP on them, and try to carve up a huge chunk of the enemy army. The min size ones historically you might throw in to a rockgrinder with some democharges as a bit of added threat, but in 9th you've got the removal of overwatch, secondary objectives that make tiny deep striking INFANTRY keyword units extremely annoying, and a point drop on Heavy Rock Saws that make it so a min squad of acolytes with 2x saws is only 1 single point more expensive than it was in 8th.

6) Atalan Jackals, maybe. Jackals and their wolfquad buddy did see pretty substantial point nerfs, 40% and 33% respectively. the thing that makes them possibly still worth looking into is the new missions, where mobility can allow you to score a ton of secondary points every turn, and the new Rusted Claw trait, which allows you to take both a shotgun and an autopistol and use them together after advancing with no penalty to hit. Min squads with Atalan incinerators, all the shotguns they can take and autopistols/autoguns on the sergeant put out pretty good anti-chaff firepower while absolutely screaming around the board.

General Listbuilding Strategies

I've tried out a couple styles of play so far, mostly involving vehicles since I have quite a few of them. I have a feeling you could probably do something with acolyte spam but I own 40x acolytes total unlike players with older competitive lists who own like 120+, so I can't test that.

Style 1: Extremely limited melee, guncult.

Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment

HQ: Jackal Alphus 75, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession
HQ: Magus 85, psychic powers: Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor
HQ: Primus 80.

Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Acolytes x5 45, 2x Rock Saws 20
Troops: Acolytes x5 45, 2x Rock Saws 20
Troops: Brood Brothers 50
Troops: Brood Brothers 50
Troops: Brood Brothers 50
Troops: Brood Brothers 50
Troops: Brood Brothers 50
Troops: Brood Brothers 50

Elites: Sanctus 60, Sanctus Bio-Dagger
Elites: Kelermorph 80, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Elites: Locus 45

Fast: Cult Scout Sentinel 30, Heavy Flamer 15
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10

Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Clearance Incinerator 30
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Clearance Incinerator 30
Heavy: Cult HWT 18, 3x Mortars 30

Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30

1998 points.

This is a list with heavy scoring, screens that can drop onto the board, and just enough scattered threat to tie up unscreened Blast weapon units, assassinate characters, countercharge melee units, and provide enough of a credible threat that space marine armies aren't going to just wade into the center of the board with their primaris fists and start smacking you around. As someone who likes a tactical playstyle without a designated "Ok, here's the plan, all your CP expenditure is figured out in advance and all your big moves are already decided" this felt pretty good to play. Use your move and shoot heavy on everything to make sure your neophyte trucks are where they need to be, put a few squads of Brood Brothers into reserves to deep strike some screens in, and don't commit too hard to the ball around the Jackal Alphus that you aren't scoring as many points as possible: you still probably won't win a drag-out firefight with a full gun castle list.

Style 3: Hybrid melee/shooting with 1 big bomb

Cult of the Bladed Cog Brigade Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75. Warlord Trait: single minded Obsession
HQ: Primus 80
HQ: Magus 85, Familiar 15, Might from Beyond, Undying Vigor

Troops: 20x Acolytes 160, Cult Icon 10, 3x Rock Saws 30, 1x Rock Cutter 10.
Troops: 5x Acolytes 45, 2x Saws 20
Troops: 5x Acolytes 45, 1x Saw 10
Troops: 10x Neophytes 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: 10x Neophytes 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: 10x Neophytes 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: 10x Brood Brothers 50
Troops: 10x Brood Brothers 50
Troops: 10x Brood Brothers 50

Elites: Kelermorph 80, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Elites: Clamavus 65
Elites: Nexos 55

Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Jackals x4 56, shotguns and knives, Wolfquad 20 with shotgun and Atalan Incinerator 15
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10

Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, heavy stubber 5, Heavy Mining 15
Heavy: Cult HWT 18, 3x Mortars 30

Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30

2000 pts

This one exchanges a little bit of firepower for an alpha strike melee bomb that you can drop in and blow a huge chunk of CP on to ideally carve off a chunk of the enemy army and create a huge distraction while you rack up points turn 2/3. I think this is getting PRETTY close to optimized in terms of what GSC want to be doing in the new edition. Just like the last list, cult ambush means you dont' have to expose any infantry to antichaff firepower turn 1 unless your opponent cracks a transport, you still have the obnoxious 3++ kelermorph, and now you have more stuff to spend your CPs on rather than the last list where I was basically using command points on +1s to wound here or there.

Style 3: As yet untested, Unstoppable Jormungandr Genstealer Tanks

Cult of the Bladed Cog Battalion Detachment
HQ: Jackal Alphus 75
HQ: Patriarch 135, Warlord Trait: Single Minded Obsession. Psychic Power: Might from Beyond

Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: Neophytes x10 60, 2x Mining Lasers 20
Troops: 5x Acolytes 45, 1x Saw 10
Troops: 5x Acolytes 45, 2x Saws 20

Elites: Sanctus 60, Sanctus Bio-Dagger
Elites: Kelermorph 80, Relic: Mark of the Clawed Omnissiah
Elites: Locus 45

Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10
Fast: Achilles Ridgerunner 40, Flare Launcher 5, Heavy Mining 15, Heavy Stubber x2 10

Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, HML 15, Heavy Stubber 5
Heavy: Goliath Rockgrinder 90, HML 15, Heavy Stubber 5

Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30
Dedicated: Goliath Truck 50, heavy stubber 5, twin Autocannons 30

Hive Fleet Jormungandr Patrol Detachment -2CP

HQ: Broodlord 125, Psychic Power: Catalyst
Troops: 20x Genestealers 300, Extended Carapace 40, Enhanced Resistance -1CP (Ignore AP-1 and AP-2)

2000pts

Starting this one with 9cp rather than 12cp, but ditching the deep strike bomb that requires 5CP to do its turn 1 thing, rather than building into an alpha strike this list builds an enormous, threatening brick of a unit of genestealers that is going to roll into the center of the board and require ABSURD firepower to remove if you can get it into cover and keep catalyst on it.

addnid wrote:The love from GW For Genestealers cult is feeling colder than the love of the incoming tyranid fleet that will devour all cultists at the end of the battle. Time to let the army rest in my cupboard until new codex drops

C4790M wrote:Could always do 10 acolytes with 4 demo charges in a truck and use extra explosives - with the cache that’s 5d6 4+ S8 -3 d3 shots, and ten acolytes + rigged to blow means that the enemy might be reluctant to pop it once it gets close

Nitro Zeus wrote:What does the melee Sanctus actually accomplish ever? Haven’t used one