Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My initial take was that she was a 50 point auto-include and an 80+ never bother, and I'm not really seeing why I'd change my mind on that - although things like crossfire and other synergies might slightly push those higher. I still think she's about as expensive as she could be to not be instantly laughed out of the room.

I agree the price point feels a bit steep based on what has been previewed so far (puts her in the same cost bracket as a Kelermorph or Magus), but depending on what sort of synergies she enables it may make it more reasonable. Most of our characters have aura abilities, so if she did something to improve explosive weapons that could give her some extra utility beyond big game damage. Alternatively, maybe she will make certain explosive-based stratagems cheaper/free akin to how the Sanctus can currently use Perfect Ambush for no cost. As of right now, we have, Extra Explosives, Rigged to Blow, Drive by Demolitions, and Detonate Concealed Explosives for explosive themed strats. The last one is somewhat replaced with the Reductus' main ranged weapon, but I could see the others transferring over.

Admittedly, I am somewhat resigned to the fact that our characters are probably going to be pricier than those of other armies simply because of Unquestioning Loyalty (regardless of what form it takes). The only other army that can bring anywhere near the amount of character protection is the T'au, but theirs is still comparatively restricted to just a couple units.

Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.

I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.

This means she is competing with the:

Sanctus
Kellermorph
Biophagus
Locus
Clamavus
Nexos
Abberants
Metamrophs
Purestrains

So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.

I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.

If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.

There is of course the option to take another detachment, however this not only eats into previously precious CP, it also unlocks the option to take a second copy of a magus which is just too good to turn down ATM.

They also could have nuked everything currently good and in the new book 80 points makes her a steal compared to the others, but I'd rather not think that way ha ha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Is she so much vorse vs t7 dreadoughts?

2d3 shots d3
vs
1d3 shots d1d6

5 point difference

She has better BS and double the shots, worse range and consistent but low damage (2 damage verse dreadnoughts) while the HML will hit for 1 damage 33% of the time and 2 damage 16% or 3+ damage 50% of the time. So I'd give her the win on overall damage verse the dreads, however she can't really deal with basic infantry very well while the RR has 6 s4 shots.

However one of the major differences is the slot she will likely occupy and the fact that ridge runner can be taken in units of 3. This means they benefit more efficiently from buffs and you also use your slot to better effect.

She is growing on me quite a bit however, and although I think her price point is steep given the info we have now I am keeping an open mind about her and hoping there is in fact much more to the puzzle.

Tangentially related to pricing but the new Custodes character is aggressively priced, compared to both the Saboteur and our current HQ prices. He seems custom built in particular to completely mop the floor with the Patriarch: 25 points cheaper, a weapon perfectly tooled to kill a T6 Character, drastically reducing the Patriarch's own damage output by way of a crazy good melee defensive buff, and of course taking the cake with a Leadership score that says "Haha, no." to Mind Control and Mental Onslaught.

Madjob wrote:
Tangentially related to pricing but the new Custodes character is aggressively priced, compared to both the Saboteur and our current HQ prices. He seems custom built in particular to completely mop the floor with the Patriarch: 25 points cheaper, a weapon perfectly tooled to kill a T6 Character, drastically reducing the Patriarch's own damage output by way of a crazy good melee defensive buff, and of course taking the cake with a Leadership score that says "Haha, no." to Mind Control and Mental Onslaught.

I am not expecting those psychic powers to remain the same to where they are now anyway, but yea it's wild to see that dudes cost compared to a T3 4 wound GEQ rival in the same box. Patriarch should hopefully hit like a freight train in the new book.


GW has real problems with pointing characters. They seem to make elite characters too cheap while chaf characters are on the pricey side. Except for guard that is, I have a massive Catachan army using 2nd edition sculpts and it always amazes me comparing a company commander with the relic sword thats +1S -4 d3 damage at 40 points or the primaris psycher at 50 points compared to the magus or primus.

They already kneecapped the army into forcing players to take only one of each dude, they really need to get the points right this time around.

I am guessing Neophytes are 6 ppm and acolytes probably moving to 9ppm considering they rival an ork boy for sure now.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.

I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.

This means she is competing with the:

Sanctus
Kellermorph
Biophagus
Locus
Clamavus
Nexos
Abberants
Metamorphs
Purestrains

So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.

To be fair, of these she is mainly competing with the (Sniper) Sanctus and Kellermorph as a special weapon character in the "about a squad of Neophytes" point bracket that gets dropped in to deal with specific targets. Compared to those characters she at least fulfills an interesting niche of preferring to go after large, tough targets instead of (psyker) characters and infantry. Battalions are also fairly generous with Elite slots compared to the other battlefield roles, so points are probably going to be a bigger limiter than slot availability.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.

Agreed. I'm fairly hopeful the new book will, given that the 9th edition Death Guard got such a rule for their glut of elite support characters and Necrons and Thousand Sons have something similar for their smaller utility HQ units.

It will be interesting to see if the datasheet in the box has a "Cult Agent" keyword or similar.

 Red Corsair wrote:

If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.

I could see her being a good second HQ for a mech list (though like you I expect her to be an elite). Right now I generally take a Primus for the role after an Alphus, but he doesn't really work well with the high mobility of such lists since he can't do anything useful unless he is on foot. With the remote explosives, a Reductus would be perfectly happy riding around in a Goliath Truck, bombing everything in sight, with an Acolyte bodyguard to lend hand flamers and maybe a few explosives of their own (maybe even add a Demolition Cache for extra explosive fun).

 Red Corsair wrote:
Its not just the 80 points but the opportunity cost as well.

I will assume she is an elite slot character, which seems pretty safe.

This means she is competing with the:

Sanctus
Kellermorph
Biophagus
Locus
Clamavus
Nexos
Abberants
Metamrophs
Purestrains

So she needs to stand out a bit at 80 points IMHO.

I am hoping they give the army a rule for advisors so we can at least fit a handful of these utility characters into an army without giving up on so many slots, but we shall see.

If shes an HQ shes DOA. There isn't much chance in wasting a precious HQ slot on her.

There is of course the option to take another detachment, however this not only eats into previously precious CP, it also unlocks the option to take a second copy of a magus which is just too good to turn down ATM.

They also could have nuked everything currently good and in the new book 80 points makes her a steal compared to the others, but I'd rather not think that way ha ha.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
Is she so much vorse vs t7 dreadoughts?

2d3 shots d3
vs
1d3 shots d1d6

5 point difference

She has better BS and double the shots, worse range and consistent but low damage (2 damage verse dreadnoughts) while the HML will hit for 1 damage 33% of the time and 2 damage 16% or 3+ damage 50% of the time. So I'd give her the win on overall damage verse the dreads, however she can't really deal with basic infantry very well while the RR has 6 s4 shots.

However one of the major differences is the slot she will likely occupy and the fact that ridge runner can be taken in units of 3. This means they benefit more efficiently from buffs and you also use your slot to better effect.

She is growing on me quite a bit however, and although I think her price point is steep given the info we have now I am keeping an open mind about her and hoping there is in fact much more to the puzzle.

She’s even better if you assume she has the crossfire rule. 2d3 shots hitting on twos wounding on twos against most light vehicles (including dreadknights) for three damage a pop is straight up good.

If the plant explosives wasn't an action she would be far more interesting. Now you loose a round of shooting.

I might have missed it, but I would assume the shooting is ignoring LoS (igniting explosives left behind before), if that is true it makes her much more interesting .

In my mind planting explosives is q turn 1 action for them. You can use 3 of these ladies to turn 1 shower a flank in mines.

Does she only get one? Is there a range/los requirement on the mine? How many can she have active in a game?

dreadlybrew wrote:
In my mind planting explosives is q turn 1 action for them. You can use 3 of these ladies to turn 1 shower a flank in mines.

Does she only get one? Is there a range/los requirement on the mine? How many can she have active in a game?

That is a lot of points to spend on something your opponent can just ignore or throw a disposable unit at.

But its not ignoring. You are dictating the battlefield. Basically only tyranids get to move twice so you are forcing your opponent to move assets to a point you want them too. Edging 2 to 4 inches turn 1 can save you turn 5

Yeah, taking 1d3 mortal wounds never stopped someone from claiming an objective.

That said... 3d3 mortal wounds might!

I wouldn't even put it on an objective. just on the way to an objective.

in an ideal world you would get to place like 3 blip markers and secretly note which one was the bomb. like a GSC mini game.

who knows what our stratagems may deliver.

and every reworking of our cults.

If you dont put it on an objective your wasting your time. Read the rule more clearly, you can walk right over it so long as you don't end your movement within 3"

Taking three is not only 240 points for those few mortals but it's also a 3 detachment requirement meaning your burning all your CP and taxing the crap out of yourself to get them.

Not sure why you think a good opponent would worry so much about the mine. If shes mining a forward objective, which is the mines best use, then she's basically ringing the dinner bell since GSC really bleeds assassination points.

The mine could be written slightly different from the article, but thats really unlikely. As of now it's her worst feature, and I really dislike the idea of needing CP to fix that mechanic when shes 80 points to start.

I think we need the full picture for sure, but right now I think she makes a solid ranged attack you can add into a truck with some mining laser neophytes.

Hey I'm all aboard truck neophyte play. Assault means you get to advance that sucker up the board.

If they keep the gene sect ability for matched play I would be surprised. But multiple detachments of primuses means multiple perfect ambushes. I think we will be seeing double battalion play in the near future.

I think it's almost a given the gene sect ability remains, it's not like they haven't created enough characters for the army to field the crap out of without resorting to doubles. There are 13 characters lol.

Low res screenshots from shadow throne leaked. One interesting thing: neophytes have both frag grenades AND blasting charges. Frag grenades are standard; blasting charges are D3 Blast S5 ap-1.

canonized wrote:
Low res screenshots from shadow throne leaked. One interesting thing: neophytes have both frag grenades AND blasting charges. Frag grenades are standard; blasting charges are D3 Blast S5 ap-1.

Saboteur is T3 4W 5+ as expected, BS2+ native. Interestingly she carries a Demolition charge too, one use as before. Cult Ambush is renamed Conceal, by all appearances it is identical to old Cult Ambush. Setting explosives resolves at the end of the movement phase. No crossfire keyword.

Patriarch is losing a point of strength, gaining a wound (and a point of BS??) and invuln going up to 4+. Claws are D2 base, D3 on rend. Living Idol is now ignore attrition modifiers.

Primus got BS2+ and T4, bonesword is now "cult bonesword" and is S+1 D2, toxin claw lost rend but is now a bonus attack and Cult Demagogue is reroll hit rolls of 1 instead of +1 to hit.

Magus gets 2 casts, Spiritual Leader is now a 5+ FnP against MWs for Infantry and Bikers within 6"

Familiars are now a psychic test re-roll once per game.

Neophytes page is very hard to read, but Shotguns are flat S4 now, they do not have the absurdly limited mining weapon/special weapon restrictions I expected (you get 2 for every 10 men, for either, no restrictions on what you bring, so double flamers are a-OK). Seismic Cannon might be S4 AP-1 on the long range profile now? Short range is still S6 which is not what I was hoping for at all. Both profiles have lost their "rend" effect on wound rolls of 6+. Webbers are Blast, and you roll a D6 for each hit roll and if the result is higher than the highest Toughness model in the target unit it causes a mortal wound.

nvm, should have read the leaks first....

If the primus still only has a 5+ with no invuln hes still worthless in melee

Meticulous planning got a huge buff. You choose a unit each command phase to re-roll 1s to wound.

canonized wrote:
Meticulous planning got a huge buff. You choose a unit each command phase to re-roll 1s to wound.

Yea, using it every turn is great and it got a 3" range boost too.

If the sabatour really doesn't have Crossfire, then it is going to be even more difficult to make her worth it. Crossfire only benefits other Crossfire units and 80 points seems better well spent on a ridgerunner which should get the Crossfire benefit.

I have a 20 man neophyte unit converted using skitari coats to look like dusters all armed with shotguns and 2 flamers that suddenly is sounding like it will be not only fun as hell, but impactful for once lol.



As far as the leaks though, I am expecting there to be some differences from the info in the booklet from shadow throne and the eventual book. It's not uncommon for certain keywords and rules to be slightly off. The saboteur may still get crossfire for example and I am expecting the cult ambush to change in the codex, since as far as I can tell from early games with the box the booklet just says which rules they have, but doesn't give the rules meaning they are referring to the current codex.

The box was planned to release at the same time as the new codex so I would expect it to reference the 'current' (new unreleased now because of the delay) codex.

And Neophytes do have Crossfire on their sheet. So its not like they left that rule out to cut down on complexity in the box.

If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...

Madjob wrote:
If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...

It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?

Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Madjob wrote:
If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...

It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?

Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.

While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.

Madjob wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Madjob wrote:
If only Remote Explosives really was Assault 2D6 and not 2D3...

It's almost like they remembered that it has the "Blast" keyword?

Which incidentally is why I think the Saboteur doesn't have "Crossfire". It would be an absolute joke to throw Exposed markers down if that were the case.

While evidently forgetting it does less damage against every target that is vulnerable to Blast.

While still remembering that it has variable damage and a fairly high S.

It's a S8 AP-3 D1(3 v Monster or Vehicle) attack with a 24" range on a BS2+ model that is untargetable while within an Area Terrain feature unless the firing model is within 12".

I get that you seem to think it's absolute trash or whatever, but its nearest comparison is the Astra Militarum's "Master of Ordnance". MoO has way more range, but their Artillery Barrage is once per game...and still not as good as this model can be.