bat702 wrote: I really love the idea of a Guard-horde, but seriously painting that many guards-men is so beyond torturous to any hobbyist unless you go for the minimum cheesy 3 colors. Also moving that many guardsmen every turn and deploying them etc, is also a bit of a horrible experience.
The most I've ever played with was 150 something models. I definitely remember taking at least 30 minutes to deploy, 30 minutes to do my first turn, and that time quickly shrinking as the game went on. I've been playing since 3rd edition though, so I've had years to let that collection grow.
Love it mate, you have to shout CHAaArgGh!! at the start of every movement phase, and actually vocalise the Orders from the commanders, and you'll be golden. Also play without movement trays to tilt your oppo.
Seriously though, Agile Warriors (re-roll advances) and Wilderness Survivors (always in cover) seem like the doctrines here.
To be honest, while I love Mordians idea. I think that can be done better with Militarum Tempestus. I made a mock up list here:
The Wyrdvane Psykers you basically use as servitors and to trigger the stratagem for the Primaris Psykers (including Aradia). I gave them Gaze of the Emperor to give them some way to get mortal wounds if needed. The Primaris Psykers have Psychic Barrier or Nightshroud, and both have Psychic Maelstrom.
Basically all Psykers will use Smite first, and then move onto their own mortal wound powers once they become more efficient. This is assuming I pop off the stratagem, and only after I use their buffing powers.
The Commissar is purely there because I didn't know what else to do with the remaining points. Maybe he can do some It's For Your Own Good to save me from taking mortal wounds.
The Scions themselves, you can bring those Primes up to 3 orders each with the Warlord trait, relic, and then the stratagem. So you can still get 9 of those squads to Move, Move, Move on first turn if needed. The rest could go into Aerial Drop for free and literally go anywhere over the board turn 2.
The other great thing with the Scions and being Lions. Their basic weapons are AP-3, so you'll be wounding the same as lasguns but you'll actually be forcing enemies onto their invuls. Then there's the free Tempestor plasma pistols, the fact that they basically get Lord's Approval without the Officer requirement (all their melee attacks are also AP-1), then there's the stratagems. Such as:
- Hotshots can be increased to S4 with Point Blank Efficacy.
- Killing Zone can be used on big threats, provided you can kill 1 model.
- Unquestioning Obedience is simply better than anything Commissars can do.
- They can get that extra Warlord trait.
- You can use Grenadiers on AP-2 krak grenades, or AP-1 frag grenades.
- Take Cover will give them a 3+ save, 2+ if they are also getting the benefits of cover.
This is personally the list someone should try for Guard. In terms of models it's only 30 something smaller. With way more flexibility. It should also do far more damage than the Guardsmen's standard lasguns ever would.
Tempestous scions horde is an interesting concept. Does the secondary While we stand we fight benefit this list, as a 90 point scion squad is the most expensive unit and you can keep 3 of them in reserve until turn 3 then hide them, for 15 extra cheesy victory points?
Automatically Appended Next Post: While i'm here can anyone tell me if we are allowed to use Specialist Detachments any more? I may have missed an FAQ...
PaddyMick wrote: Tempestous scions horde is an interesting concept. Does the secondary While we stand we fight benefit this list, as a 90 point scion squad is the most expensive unit and you can keep 3 of them in reserve until turn 3 then hide them, for 15 extra cheesy victory points?
Automatically Appended Next Post: While i'm here can anyone tell me if we are allowed to use Specialist Detachments any more? I may have missed an FAQ...
That could be something to try. Risky though. Highly board and opponent dependent. Though with this you can literally do basically any non-killing secondaries, including psyker ones. Though psykers ones are typically pretty bad.
You can use specialist detachments in narrative play still. Though I would always ask your opponent first.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Dont feed gw any big gaird buy in till they make a damn codex thats competitive with crap likedeldar.
I've got a ticket for a grand tournament in december and will be taking guard, assuming I get my proxies and conversions past the TO. If there is no codex by then, I may be hitting you up for some of that cheese. Until that point i'll be stockpiling plasma guns.
as I got my hands on some sweet 3d models of Catachans it would be a shame not to print them and play.
Could you please take a look if this direction is somehow playable or I totally messed up?
I would like to go with infantry over Leman.
Looks workable so far. I would consider either dropping one Sentinel or arm them with a cheaper weapon to squeez in that third Command Squad you are allowed to use. Another 4 Meltaguns would do more in Anti tank duty than a Lascannon Sentinel.
Also keep in mind that the Command Squads in the Valkyrie are a lot of eggs in one basket. But it can work.
Only my 2 cents though. Lets see what the experts say...
Lost for a fourth time to Necrons. Unable to hold objectives in a meaningful way even with outnumbering opponents army. Final score was 59 to 20, I had a Commissar and Manticor left, that was it. He still had two warrior groups, a plasmaguy and one big gun ghost arc thing. Ended at bottom of 4.
Also, I could have sworn you get VP at the end of your turn.
PaddyMick wrote: That sucks. So with those warrior blobs, one unit's firing has to wipe 20 warriors at once right, or they regen?
Does this do it:
Tank commander, ordering himself to re-roll 1's to hit, gatling cannon with weapon expert -1 ap, 3 heavy flamers, heavy stubber?
The way they have done VP is confusing to me, it's scored all differently depending on what it's for.
Off the top of my head, that’d kill about 16 - 17 Warriors. With 5 - 6 of them returning. If you took gunnery experts and swapped the heavy stubber for a storm bolter (4 shots at 12 inch, you have heavy flamers so you might as well). That might be enough to push you to 20 Warriors dead.
ahh right, cheers. Better take that hunter killer missile too, last thing you want is one guy left! plus that would be comedy gold, if your oppo thinks he's tanked it
As far as I have seen, Reanimation works a bit like a slightly delayed Feel No Pain, except it stops working once all the unit members are down. I would rather shoot Necrons than having to chisel my way through 2W 2+ save + FNP sanguinary guard... If you can put the whole unit down with one unit, great. But if you can't - culling a few with each unit's shooting puts you closer to that magic number when RP stops working...
Quick question: how do you get 2 x full payload manticores in a list? I've seen it done a couple of times recently.
From what I have read you can only use the Tank Ace strategem once per battle, and a manticore isn't a character, so can't be your warlord.
So as I understand it, you can have one Tank Ace instead of a Warlord trait on a Tank Commander, and one other Tank Ace on a russ or artillery tank using the strategem.
PaddyMick wrote: Quick question: how do you get 2 x full payload manticores in a list? I've seen it done a couple of times recently.
From what I have read you can only use the Tank Ace strategem once per battle, and a manticore isn't a character, so can't be your warlord.
So as I understand it, you can have one Tank Ace instead of a Warlord trait on a Tank Commander, and one other Tank Ace on a russ or artillery tank using the strategem.
You can take a Tank Ace instead of a Warlord Trait. That Tank Ace doesn't have to be your Warlord, your Warlord just doesn't have a trait.
Speaking specifically for the Hydra, there are very few custom regimental traits (or tank ace traits) that combine with it. If you are not worried about not having a boost to your infantry, you can combine two vehicle traits. I agree with you that jurry rigged repair being cool, but spotter details gives nothing. A 72" range tank does not need extra range at all. However, monster hunter can prove very handy when facing some armies. Hydra providing a lot of dice rolls, there will be many occasions to roll those to wound. This will be golden against Tau riptides, Tyranid flying tyrant, CSM deamon princes, and some other targets. Not a huge boost, not useful very often, but can be nice.
If you plan to mix infantry and vehicles, stick with a classic named regiment. Here is a quick overview. Probably not Cadian, as you are likely to move the Hydra to get line of sight to a suitable target. Don't forget that with properly laid out tables, dangerous foes will seek to hide behind LOS obscuring terrain features. Vostroyan, extra range : useless. Catachan : no bonus for you. Mordian : very specific overwatch boost is crappy. Tallarn : you are probably not wanting to advance a lot with this tank, 12" move ought to be enough, so meh. Armageddon, extra resilience against AP-1 is not bad, but most of the time, weapons firing at you will be AP-3 or AP-4. I would pass. My opinion is that the best for the hydra will be Valhallan. It allows for much better efficiency after taking a single crippling hit of currently common antitank weapons. You would get an extra turn of efficient use of your tank if taking 4-6 damage from a dark lance for example. Or will force your opponent to divert more ressources into finishing a damaged hydra, instead of crippling two.
Depending on what you face, Cadia and Vostroya at least have a nice regimental stratagem. With "overlapping fields of fire" triggered by some other unit, the hydra gets back to 4+ against ground targets. Or the other way around has a pretty good chance to put that one wound on a heavy flyer to trigger it for the rest of the army.
Pyroalchi wrote: Depending on what you face, Cadia and Vostroya at least have a nice regimental stratagem. With "overlapping fields of fire" triggered by some other unit, the hydra gets back to 4+ against ground targets. Or the other way around has a pretty good chance to put that one wound on a heavy flyer to trigger it for the rest of the army.
This, I would argue a Cadian Hydra is probably the best. Even if it moves, as long as it shoots at a target that is being affected by overlapping fields of fire it's still better off than a regular Hydra. A Cadian Hydra can also benefit from the relic of lost Cadia, so it could still get that reroll of 1 to hit on that turn even if it moved (as well as the reroll 1 to wound).
Even then, Hydra's typically aren't great units. They might be okay if your local meta has a lot of fly units, but that's about it.
bat702 wrote: I really love the idea of a Guard-horde, but seriously painting that many guards-men is so beyond torturous to any hobbyist unless you go for the minimum cheesy 3 colors. Also moving that many guardsmen every turn and deploying them etc, is also a bit of a horrible experience.
Guard horde is one of those things you really need to have the stomach for. It can work and be fun but man it's a lot of deployment work and movement if they move forward. My first games of guard were horde as the vehicles didn't get built till later and I ran usually 3 full troop platoons at least back when you could blob them up, sprinkled with commissars.
Send one group of 50 forward, follow it with the 2nd group and if they don't bog the enemy line down or crush them the 3rd group of 50 some odd guys should do it. I miss those days. I actually made the enemy fear massed guard infantry charges.
Won't lie, it feels like you imagine it will but man is it a pain in the butt to do.
bat702 wrote: I really love the idea of a Guard-horde, but seriously painting that many guards-men is so beyond torturous to any hobbyist unless you go for the minimum cheesy 3 colors. Also moving that many guardsmen every turn and deploying them etc, is also a bit of a horrible experience.
Guard horde is one of those things you really need to have the stomach for. It can work and be fun but man it's a lot of deployment work and movement if they move forward. My first games of guard were horde as the vehicles didn't get built till later and I ran usually 3 full troop platoons at least back when you could blob them up, sprinkled with commissars.
Send one group of 50 forward, follow it with the 2nd group and if they don't bog the enemy line down or crush them the 3rd group of 50 some odd guys should do it. I miss those days. I actually made the enemy fear massed guard infantry charges.
Won't lie, it feels like you imagine it will but man is it a pain in the butt to do.
Guard horde was pretty fun in 6th, when priests gave infantry blobs fearless, and primaris psykers could provide rerolls to hit or potentially invisibility. Having both meant you could have some hidden power/force weapons in the blob too.
The start of 8th was fun too. Conscript spam was in, then nerfed into the ground.
Now days? I do think infantry spam is better than combined arms, you have better board control and movement (thanks to Move! Move! Move!). A second brigade of Scions can provide all the heavy firepower you need, with the added benefit of being able to help with secondaries. Still though, it's too time consuming to play and still not very reliable. Infantry squads such at killing.
I loosely followed the debates about Drukhari and their option to spam liquifiers with dark technomancers. As far as I gathered it gives a pretty spammable autohitting 12'' assault D6, 4/-2/1 gun another point of damage and +1 to wound without downsides (as the bad consequences only happen on a hit roll of 6+ and autohitting stuff doesn't roll).
The combo seems to be the bane of everything with more than one wound currently, as they seem to easily kill their points worth of Marines in one turn.
Looking at that, purely from an armschair general perspective I would think that Guard Infantry spam could be a good counter to that. The second damage is wasted on them, and +1 to wound only increases damage potential by 1/4 (from 4/6 wound roll to 5/6 wound roll) so instead of more than doubling the damage output as against Marines and other multiwound stuff, it merely gives +25%. And in the case of conscripts, even half the AP is wasted. I only roughly glanced around, but it seems Guardsmen are amongst the few units, where wracks and grotesques need several turns of shooting to kill their points back.
some math for those interested:
5 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers (60 points) kill (on average) 5.833 conscripts or guardsmen a turn. Thats 30 (conscripts)-32+ (Infantry squad, depending on loadout) points.
3 Grotesques with 3 Liquifiers (135 points), kill 8.75 conscripts/guardsmen for 44/48+ points.
The other way around the Drukhari have to get within 12'', so within Rapid fire range. A barebones Infantry squad (55 points), shoots 19 times within 12'' (the sergeant shooting his laspistol), killing 2.64 Wracks or 21 points. If they get FRFSRF they wipe one 5 man Wrack squad (60 points with the Liquifiers).
So my question is: what are the thoughts of those with practical experience? Is this line of thought worth it or is there some basic flaw I missed?
Jarms48 wrote: Even then, Hydra's typically aren't great units. They might be okay if your local meta has a lot of fly units, but that's about it.
Good point but they might be really good against Drukhari Raiders (T6+Fly) and we might be seeing a lot of them since they are underpriced.
In fact it would seem Guard have some good tools vs Drukhari in general, mainly plasma (seems to be always the answer to every meta challenge, except death guard maybe) and autocannons.
Pyroalchi wrote: I loosely followed the debates about Drukhari and their option to spam liquifiers with dark technomancers. As far as I gathered it gives a pretty spammable autohitting 12'' assault D6, 4/-2/1 gun another point of damage and +1 to wound without downsides (as the bad consequences only happen on a hit roll of 6+ and autohitting stuff doesn't roll).
The combo seems to be the bane of everything with more than one wound currently, as they seem to easily kill their points worth of Marines in one turn.
Looking at that, purely from an armschair general perspective I would think that Guard Infantry spam could be a good counter to that. The second damage is wasted on them, and +1 to wound only increases damage potential by 1/4 (from 4/6 wound roll to 5/6 wound roll) so instead of more than doubling the damage output as against Marines and other multiwound stuff, it merely gives +25%. And in the case of conscripts, even half the AP is wasted. I only roughly glanced around, but it seems Guardsmen are amongst the few units, where wracks and grotesques need several turns of shooting to kill their points back.
some math for those interested:
5 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers (60 points) kill (on average) 5.833 conscripts or guardsmen a turn. Thats 30 (conscripts)-32+ (Infantry squad, depending on loadout) points.
3 Grotesques with 3 Liquifiers (135 points), kill 8.75 conscripts/guardsmen for 44/48+ points.
The other way around the Drukhari have to get within 12'', so within Rapid fire range. A barebones Infantry squad (55 points), shoots 19 times within 12'' (the sergeant shooting his laspistol), killing 2.64 Wracks or 21 points. If they get FRFSRF they wipe one 5 man Wrack squad (60 points with the Liquifiers).
So my question is: what are the thoughts of those with practical experience? Is this line of thought worth it or is there some basic flaw I missed?
The models actually firing 2x DT Liquifiers kill 33 pts of models whilst costing themselves 36 pts so no, they even make it 1:1 with Guardsmen unfortunately; also you do not wipe a 5men Wracks squad with FRFSRF + Rapid Fire (3.426), meaning that those 2 remaining Liquifiers are with decent odds still alive
With FRFSRF I should get 37 shots (4 x 9 from the lasguns + 1 Laspistol on the Sergant) within 12'', thats 18.5 hits, against T4 wracks 6.17 wounds, As they have 6+, that should be 5 unsaved wounds and kill a 5 dude squad, shouldn't it?
Edit: or do they have some kind of inv save I missed?
Fair enough, when one only takes the models holding the Liquifiers and ignores the three "tax" guys, you are right, they almost shoot their points back. It's still a better trade than SM etc. have.
Pyroalchi wrote: With FRFSRF I should get 37 shots (4 x 9 from the lasguns + 1 Laspistol on the Sergant) within 12'', thats 18.5 hits, against T4 wracks 6.17 wounds, As they have 6+, that should be 5 unsaved wounds and kill a 5 dude squad, shouldn't it?
Edit: or do they have some kind of inv save I missed?
Fair enough, when one only takes the models holding the Liquifiers and ignores the three "tax" guys, you are right, they almost shoot their points back. It's still a better trade than SM etc. have.
Ok, te 6++ shouldn't do anything, the 5+++ would save 1/3 of the guys. So yeah, more like 3 something wracks killed. Fair enough. Still, let's say we suffer less than other codizes from this very weird combo
So in the current meta, what sort of units would work well in a scion list outside the obvious scions, command squads and commanders backed up with a few taurox primes. Probably with the lions trait/relic that passes out an invul.
The Auxilia come to mind as they don't break the reginment, so ogryns to act as anchors alongside the taurox, maybe some psykers and or valks? Ratling's don't feel like they offer much these days, since you can always try to clear out an area and deep strike a bunch of special weapons.
None of the other tanks can slot into the regiment can they?
None of the other tanks no; but you can grab any of the Aeronautica Imperialis air support options. Think of air power as your armour.
For 165 points, you can get an Avenger Strike Fighter rocking two lascannons, and an avenger assault cannon, which is a 10 shot S6, Ap2, D2 weapon. Oh, and a heavy stubber in a navigator's seat. (And it's an awesome model, a glorious synergy of a Stuka and an A-10)
Officers of the Fleet synergize well if you're running flyers & voxcasters, for 25 points you can buff the shooting of any number of flyers vs a target within 18" of the officer, and, if you have a voxcaster scion within 18" you can spend a CP to measure from him instead; or to add 2 to your MW roll from the OOF.
An Avenger and an Officer of the Fleet together run you less than 200 points and give you a lot of strong dakka to kill MEQs.
I beenrinning a lot of krieg support auxilliry with my online tts crusade army to mess withdrukari. A simple sentinal with a lascannon bwcomes a holy terror .. Outranges the foe and when shot will return fire fifty percent of time. Forgeworld rapier destroyers push this even further. Enfineers pop out ofbuildings where they hid behind other squads to inflict their grenade strat. None of this is perfect butit gives you a chance. Avengers make a decent distraction carnifax .. But their lackluster aim is a real drawback. Ok with offocr of flotte near though. Well thats my recent e?periwnce anyway.
VonGerrow wrote: None of the other tanks no; but you can grab any of the Aeronautica Imperialis air support options. Think of air power as your armour.
For 165 points, you can get an Avenger Strike Fighter rocking two lascannons, and an avenger assault cannon, which is a 10 shot S6, Ap2, D2 weapon. Oh, and a heavy stubber in a navigator's seat. (And it's an awesome model, a glorious synergy of a Stuka and an A-10)
Officers of the Fleet synergize well if you're running flyers & voxcasters, for 25 points you can buff the shooting of any number of flyers vs a target within 18" of the officer, and, if you have a voxcaster scion within 18" you can spend a CP to measure from him instead; or to add 2 to your MW roll from the OOF.
An Avenger and an Officer of the Fleet together run you less than 200 points and give you a lot of strong dakka to kill MEQs.
The Avenger would be much more likely to trigger Hammer Blow than a Valkyrie. The only issue is BS, an Avenger is only BS4+ and the Officer of the Fleet only provides rerolls of 1 to hit. So it's not amazing. In terms of firepower it's better than an Exterminator or an Eradicator. Someone would have to do the math to compare it to a Battle Tank or Executioner. Though obviously an MT detachment gets none of these, so it's the best they can really do.
Though one thing to consider is if MT did want some tanks, you could just take a spearhead with Leman Russes. 2 demolisher tank commanders and 3 standard demolishers, give them spotter details and gunnery experts. You'd probably do better than Avengers.
Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..
This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.
Unfortunately no. Would make a lot of sense really, but no. If you take a stormtrooper detachment, you can give them radios and use their line of sight and measure distance for a CP. Gives you a buff to tactical air raid as well.
bat702 wrote: Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..
This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.
Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.
C'est la vie. We aren't a power army atm, so we're not getting brought by the FotM crowd. Personally, I'm fine with that, though it does drastically reduce our capacity for tactica due to not having that many people to test with.
Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.
bat702 wrote: Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.
I've played a few games with it and it can be very effective for primary points. Both getting and denying. Secondaries can be an issue. Raise the Banners and Domination are best picks, the 3rd is always a difficult choice. Really depends on the mission and the opponent.
The next challenge is deployment. It can be very difficult to fit that many models into a deployment zone. Especially if you're playing with the required amount of terrain. It then gets very CP intensive to keep units in Strategic Reserves, not that you'd be spending much CP on pure infantry anyway.
The last challenge is time. If you're playing with chess clocks it can be incredibly demanding to move that many models and roll that many dice.
These 3 reasons are actually why I keep suggesting someone try playing pure Infantry Scions. It pretty much solves all of the issues. Scions open up tons of additional secondary options. They also solve the deployment issue because half the army can be put into reserves for free.
Also, this isn't factoring the cost of building that army, the time it takes to assemble and paint that army, then the effort of transporting that much miniatures safely.
bat702 wrote: Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.
I've played a few games with it and it can be very effective for primary points. Both getting and denying. Secondaries can be an issue. Raise the Banners and Domination are best picks, the 3rd is always a difficult choice. Really depends on the mission and the opponent.
The next challenge is deployment. It can be very difficult to fit that many models into a deployment zone. Especially if you're playing with the required amount of terrain. It then gets very CP intensive to keep units in Strategic Reserves, not that you'd be spending much CP on pure infantry anyway.
The last challenge is time. If you're playing with chess clocks it can be incredibly demanding to move that many models and roll that many dice.
These 3 reasons are actually why I keep suggesting someone try playing pure Infantry Scions. It pretty much solves all of the issues. Scions open up tons of additional secondary options. They also solve the deployment issue because half the army can be put into reserves for free.
Also, this isn't factoring the cost of building that army, the time it takes to assemble and paint that army, then the effort of transporting that much miniatures safely.
I think pure infantry scions would be quite competitive, I just don't think the models are good enough that I'd enough painting close to 200 of them.
bat702 wrote: Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..
This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.
Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.
It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.
bat702 wrote: Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..
This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.
Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.
It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.
While I would prefer it to be part of it, I feel making it a CP permanent upgrade the way Commissar tanks works if more likely
Problem is fragility. Your tanks just pop against deldar for example. Or marine dreadnaught plasma inferno spam. Or an enemy gaurd player first turn. We need some strategem like the tank in front pops smoke and is the only rank they may target till its killled... Openninh the door to defensive buffs and cover stacking a minus to hit. Would be cool.
Scions lists are good but I dont recommend going all infantry, I feel 9 pts per model is built in a cost for its ability to deepstrike, if they were 8 pts per model then yes I can see all infantry.
That being said, Taurox prime with lamba lions to give their gattling cannon ap-1 is great, also Valkyries are actually pretty decent for their point costs. Lastly taking a giant blob of bullgryns with mauls and slabshields is almost a must.
bat702 wrote: Scions lists are good but I dont recommend going all infantry, I feel 9 pts per model is built in a cost for its ability to deepstrike, if they were 8 pts per model then yes I can see all infantry.
That being said, Taurox prime with lamba lions to give their gattling cannon ap-1 is great, also Valkyries are actually pretty decent for their point costs. Lastly taking a giant blob of bullgryns with mauls and slabshields is almost a must.
I mean, compare a 9 point Scion to a 6.5 point Veteran. The Scion gets carapace armour, a hot-shot lasgun, krak grenades, their Tempestor gets WS3+ compared to the Veteran Sergeants WS4+, more stratagems, better regiment traits, better relics and warlord traits, less lasgun tax for special weapons, Obsec, and the option to deep strike/enter reserves for free.
It's actually a huge for only a 2.5 point difference (or 3.5 points more over a regular Guardsmen).
You can take 180 Scions, 3 Primes, and 3 Lord Commissars for 1860 points and 6 CP. Then you have 140 points for upgrades.
Other things you have to remember are:
- Scions can still benefit from Light Cover, so they can actually get 3+ saves. 2+ saves if you stack the Take Cover stratagem with it, and +1 with an Astropath.
- The Lions Trait works on everything. AP-1 Frag grenades, AP-1 Melee attacks, AP-2 Krak grenades, etc. Stack the better grenades with the Grenadiers stratagem and you'll have a fun time.
- The Lions relic allows you to stack rerolls of 1's to Hit and an Order. Only for units within 6 inch of the relic holder, but that's pretty powerful.
You could also cut some of those Scion squads to 5 men. Each cut saves 45 points for more special weapons. Those 5 men squads could be purely used for deep striking secondaries or suicide special weapon squads.
It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.
You keep saying this, I've played Guard since 3rd edition. What exactly do you want restored?
- Legends units? Such as Salamander Scouts and Rough Riders?
- 3.5 doctrines and upgrades for points? Such as Carapace armour?
You keep saying this current codex is terrible, but you don't say why and how to fix it.
IIRC, that was in response to Chimeras losing the Command Vehicle special rule in place of making it a Stratagem - presumably, "restored to what it was" then means "restored to being a special rule all Chimeras get rather than one Chimera per turn for CP".
IIRC, that was in response to Chimeras losing the Command Vehicle special rule in place of making it a Stratagem - presumably, "restored to what it was" then means "restored to being a special rule all Chimeras get rather than one Chimera per turn for CP".
I don't want to see the rule simply added to the Chimera. It'll lead to a point tax for the added ability knowing GW. I don't want to pay 5 - 10 extra points for every Chimera if I'm only going to use a portion of them for my Officers.
I'd rather see it simply become an upgrade for a Chimera/Taurox. Things like:
- Mobile Command Vehicle: Officer can issue orders when embarked and count as being in range of a voxcaster.
- Medicae Vehicle: Can bring back one slain model or heal one model D3 wounds, and has a 6 inch 6+++ aura.
- Artillery Command Vehicle: An embarked Master of Ordinance can issue a single Tank Order to Artillery units, in addition measure from the vehicles hull when determining the aura for Master of Ballistics and Artillery Bombardment.
Make each of these 10 points. That way you can still have the option for cheap transports, but can also make them specialised if you want to.
Each of those could be a 10 point upgrade to any Astra Militarum transport. That way even Scions could use it for their Primes (except for the Artillery one of course).
If I was to run scions and guard in the same army, do you think it's better to separate the two into detachments to access the Scion tactics etc?
I figure it depends on how heavily I'm leaning into Scions to determine the value but I was wondering what people's thoughts were.
Essentially at what point do you think the Scion tactics are worth the 3CP cost to take a second detachment? What if I was just running 3 MSU of Scions to fill troop tax?
The main circumstance when I could see Stormtroopers in a armoured guard detachment for troop tax would be if you want to run, say, Manticores, hydras, and heavy weapons teams.
If you're going hard into Russ variants and not taking any troops/ taking just 15 men as troops, you'll probably want those Russes with objective secured; so run in a spearhead.
As to command Chimera, I love the idea of this (to the point I've started making one just for the fun)
Dukeofstuff wrote: Problem is fragility. Your tanks just pop against deldar for example. Or marine dreadnaught plasma inferno spam. Or an enemy gaurd player first turn. We need some strategem like the tank in front pops smoke and is the only rank they may target till its killled... Openninh the door to defensive buffs and cover stacking a minus to hit. Would be cool.
The big problem I have is how swingy it is from army to army. Some find it very easy to just melt all your armor, others not so much. If the answer isn't tougher armor, there needs to be some other rock/paper/scissors improvement (right now I'm staring at full foot-guard to spread the wounds out as my best option).
What are people's thoughts on really leaning into things that don't need LoS for shooting?
The new Ad-Mech may even make Drukhari look quaint based on a few batreps and such this week, which means Astra Militarum tanks are about to be an even bigger liability.
But that said, I am dying to dust off our Guard...
I was thinking of starting a list with 3x Manticores, 3x Wyverns, and either some Basilisks or Mortan teams (Maybe FW Quad Mortar Batteries?)
3x Hellhounds either do work with their flamers, or waste an opponent's time for relatively low cost.
6x Infantry Squads... because bodies are needed to play the secondaries.
Maybe do it all as Catachan to maximize number of shots?
Just spit-balling, but again, I would love an excuse to try Guard at a tournament.
Sounds good but if you're taking over 6 artillery tanks, won't you run out of hiding places? Also you can clear any objective of anything with that shooting, but can you then take it yourself and what with? I'm no expert, never tried it, but these are the just the first things that spring to mind.
If I was going heavy on artillery, i'd want wave after wave of infantry surging forward in front of it.
Why don't more Guard players take Inquisitor Coteaz or Lord Inquisitor Hector Rex? For the extra 35 - 40 points it seems like a pretty good deal. Hear me out here.
A 60 point Inquisitor most people would take them as a psyker in Ordo Malleus with Warding Incantation. Alternatively a player might additionally pay 1 CP for Arbiter of the Emperor's Will to give them Psychic Mastery and a relic. Where they would then get both Warding Incantation and Castigation. That way they can both buff or be a "double smite" Inquisitor.
Inquisitor Coteaz:
Coteaz is 35 points more and immediately he seems like a good deal for what he offers. For that amount of points you get:
- Ld 10: Which makes his aura better.
- 2+ Save
- the Psyber-eagle: which is basically an assault D6 bolter.
- a Master-crafted Nemesis Daemon Hammer: which is basically a Thunder with AP-3 and no negative 1 to hit.
- Spy Network: Mainly for the ability to force an opponent to spend an extra CP on a stratagem.
- Then he already has the ability to manifest and deny 2 powers. So immediately you could make him a "double smite" Inquisitor.
The other benefits of Coteaz is that you could still give him the Arbiter of the Emperor's Will so he could take Warding Incantation for the buffing, double down on damage with Dominate to force the enemy to shoot themselves with plasma guns, or Mental Interrogation to debuff characters and get some CP back.
Hector Rex:
Rex is 40 points more than a standard Inquisitor, I'd argue he's not as good at fighting than Coteaz but he is tankier and a better psyker. For that extra 40 points you get:
- 5 inch move: probably the only negative he has.
- WS2+
- S4
- W6
- 2+ Save
- a Masterwork Bolt Pistol: Not a huge difference but at least it has an AP of -1.
- the Arias: Which is basically a better powersword that lets him swing at a respectable S5. He can definitely kill MEQ's but Coteaz can kill TEQ's.
- He can Teleport Strike: Which basically negates any disadvantage of that 5 inch move. Meaning you can drop him wherever he's needed and pump out his psychic powers.
- He has a Psychic Hood: So not only can he attempt to deny 2 powers a turn he also gets a +1 at doing so. This can be further buffed if you give him Psychic Mastery.
- The Sanctic Shield: Which gives him a 4++ and a 5+++ against mortal wounds.
- Then he's also a psyker: Compared to Coteaz they can both manifest and deny 2 powers a turn, however, unlike Coteaz Rex knows 2 powers from the Telesthesia discipline. Meaning he can start with both Castigation and Warding Incantation/Dominate. You could then also give him Psychic Mastery to know a 3rd power.
Both Coteaz and Rex are also the best Inquisition units to successfully be able to get off Strategic Excruciation which if used will make their future castings of Castigation, and Dominate (if taken) easier.
I think either of them are pretty big boons for Guard. Rex could deep strike with some Scions or just appear where needed. Coteaz offers some nice utility and is a nice beat stick. What do you think?
I have always loved the idea of a guard army being lead by an inquistor, it makes fun from a fluff sense, thinking that an inquisitor can show up any where and take control of whatever guard forces are near-by. That being said, it can be hard to mix in Coteaz or Rex, they are great but you might lose some valuable parts of a guard force as they are quite expensive, I always liked the idea too of a Lord Commisar with plasma pistol and the relic power-sword being used as a beat stick and also a morale boost
So the munitorum field manual 2021 (mark 2) has leaked.
All superheavies got about -10% reduction, -40 points. Will you consider them ?
I don't feel compelled to buy a model, or to field one either. They are expensive to buy, very unweildy to use, difficult to handle on any decently covered table. Too big, too fragile. Impossible to hide from multimeltas and such weapons. On top of that 3 or 6 CP to unlock their detachments. I get that for those who have carefully built, magnetized, painted these beasts of figurines, this is a welcome move. I don't feel any appeal for Baneblade and variants personnally. I don't play apocalypse.
There is one another reduction : ogryns, down to 25 points, from 30. Well that is quite different. They are infantry, can perform actions, capture objectives, move through ruins, get in the fight. Sure, they are still not great, or as punchy and resilient as bullgryns. But for friendly games they will be a lot of fun I guess. I'm definitely going to build a unit from my bullgryns box spare parts.
I'm not sure even at 25pts they're worth it. Doing actions is great but with no access to either type of shield they're not much more resilient than a squad of guardsmen and they're damage output is pitiful.
If you compare them to DG chaos spawn at 23pts they have less wounds, less movement, on average less attacks with less ap and less damage. The only advantage is actions and some pitiful shooting but guard have plenty of cheap units for actions.
They're still overpriced to be honest...
Now that the bane blade buffs are in, I dont think it would be super competitive but I like the idea of a banehammer, the flat 3 damage would be nice vs this meta. 3 d6 on the main turret, also its ability can be nice with guard, to keep a deathstar from getting into charge range for a turn.
I really like the idea too of either putting 3 heavy bolter heavy weapons team or 8 command squad plasma gunners inside to take advantage of the firing decks.
I really feel like the sponsons are over costed atm and I wouldnt bring them unless the new astra-militarum codex to reduce the sponsons costs.
It was popular in 8th edition with the super cheap astro-paths to give your baneblade some defensive buffs, but the buffs can still be worthwhile.
Also I think giving him a tank-ace would be great, in particular give him the reroll a heavy dice and jury rigged repairs, its just going to suck if your opponent goes first and you cant buff/repair your tank because it gets alpha striked off the table..
Also final note the crush them stratagem can actually give guard some melee counter.
Man, I'm feeling really bummed out as a Krieg player. It's been a crappy year.
Last year we were trash tier, but at least we had...
- Troops that don't take moral tests from shooting, that were 5pts cheaper than they are now.
- Troops that could spec into being pretty good in CC (priest and banner combo, native 3WS).
- A really wide range of cool units for our models.
- Grenadiers in their awesome little centaurs, zipping about the place.
- Some really cool characters (Karis & Quartermaster)
- D-charges as a viable counter attack tech to buy into
- The Russ Conqueror, which was a fearsome main tank at 24", pretty poor outside of that, but which actually made the battlecannon viable.
And the list goes on. Now? We have engineers, death riders, and a completely naff regimental doctrine - and riders just caught a rough nerf. Command squads went up 40%, that's completely unjustified.
Honestly, I'm on the verge of selling them, and maybe quitting 40k altogether. GW's idea of balance and progress are insane, and their Codex system of power-creep balancing is utter crap.
The Imperial Guard overall situation in beginning of 9th is pretty dire. Forgeworld 40k stuff has been taken over by the main company design studio. While I understand your temptation to abandon ship, you may consider trying some oldhammer. Maybe 2nd or 4th edition. You know, from a time when we had some competent game designers at the head of the GW studio. Not the current clueless yes-men, who's main preoccupation is selling the new overpriced hotness and pay-to-win supplements.
In the meantime, situation may improve. Who knows, maybe the Astra Militarum 9th edition codex will bring some interest, depth and strenght to the army ...
or maybe in 10th edition.
Golden rule of Warhammer 40k is : Never sell your painted army.
This is just typical GW balancing with a hammer.
Imperial Guard aren't a 9th edition codex, it looks bad if they're reaching tops of tournaments, so they get slapped with the nerf bat now.
But the way it seems codex creep is going, when we finally get our codex we'll be deleting the table in a single turn.
Although the effort (or lack there of) they put into the Guardsman kit doesn't exactly fill me with hope, it has to be said.
I wanted to make an imperial guard army based off the krieg troop grenadier choice, but then like 2 weeks later they got rid of them and also the leman russ conqueror variant (the one with ignore ap-1 and the stormbolter that helps you aim its battlecannon)
Also weird that the Multilasers on the Carnodon are still the same price as heavy bolters. And they are the only 15 points multilasers I found, all others are 5 points
So I thought I would throw out a quick question regarding the future of the mechanized guard.
Specifically, seeing the currently released 9th ed codex(es?), do you think there will be a viable way laid out in the 9th ed codex for IG players to run beautiful tank heavy/superheavy lists?
I will admit, for as much as the humble guardsman deserves his place of honor, my heart always belongs to the tanks.
So what say you, will running gobs of tanks (or perhaps just a few superheavy pieces of glorious metal,) become reasonably competitve in our future?
I hear rumors of a drop in secondary point bleeds for Chimeras, which would help. Still, against marines chimeras basically do nothing these days, and they die instantly to a lot of stuff (wishing for an autocannon turret). Making guard vehicles cheaper in points by a bit or giving some more durability might boost the tread head game.
One big problem is the marine resilience going up to 11... Even autocannons become simply useless against in cover marines who ignore enough ap to save on 2plus agai st expensive ap1 stuff. Autocannon has more a role vs drukari right now.. A threat to their ships t7 and enough range to matter. But its still no lascan.
RegularGuy wrote: I hear rumors of a drop in secondary point bleeds for Chimeras, which would help. Still, against marines chimeras basically do nothing these days, and they die instantly to a lot of stuff (wishing for an autocannon turret). Making guard vehicles cheaper in points by a bit or giving some more durability might boost the tread head game.
The new changes to Thin their Ranks, now No Prisoners basically means any vehicles 10 wounds or more won't double dip 2 secondaries now. That means Chimeras are only worth 1 VP with Bring it Down, though you still have to account for what the Chimera is transporting.
Leman Russes, Hellhounds, etc only give up 2 VP now instead of the possible 3. However Tank Commanders will still give up Assassinate and Bring it Down, so they're unchanged.
Fielding a Chimera + Leman Russ army seems a better bet now, now that "bring it down" has been reduced, and opponent cannot double score on "thin their ranks". But to align lots of chimeras is still questionable, because the squads inside are quite weak for most of them. I can see the usefulness of having, say 3 chimeras, loaded with veteran squads, with plasma guns or such. However, they are not objective secured. But basic infantry squads, unequipped ? Color me unimpressed. On the Leman Russ side, well I think many opponents will be quite happy to get so much use from their underpriced anti-tank weapons (multi-meltas, dark lances etc...). But after all, heavy armor overload is still a thing. An opponent a bit weak on anti-tank will find armoured company guard oppressing. So why not...
I suggest you to check out the last battle report from Mordian Glory on Youtube.
There you can see how a fully decked-out spearhead guard fights against a quite weak genestealer cult army.
When running mechanized guard people usually run spotter detail and gunnery experts, alternatively tho, packing a ton of heavy flamers, atleast one in the hull and double heavy flamer chimeras, one could consider running pyromaniacs instead of spotter details possibly. I mean if you're packing enough heavy flamers it could be worthwhile.
Crazy idea, but entire vehicle lists could be interesting now. Take a spearhead with 2 tank commanders in demolishers and 9 actual demolishers. That's 15 Bring it Down points sure, but it's not worth anything else. No-one is going to take Assassinate on 2 characters.
That means you just need to prevent the enemy from scoring board focused secondaries. Take the typical gunnery experts and spotter detail combo. Use the standard demolishers to screen the tank commanders. If anyone charges you just fallback with that tank and hit them with the others. Could work.
Another crazy idea is Scions and Chimeras, but as an AM list not an MT one. Take all the Scions as minimum 5 man squads with 2 plasma or melta, take 3 Primes, and 3 Scion Command Squads. Take Chimeras for every unit, with 2 heavy flamers and track guards. That's 12 vehicles to just flood the board first turn and second turn you drop the Scions. Sure you don't have Lions, but that's still a ton of plasma or melta hitting on 3+ with orders.
Jarms48 wrote: Crazy idea, but entire vehicle lists could be interesting now. Take a spearhead with 2 tank commanders in demolishers and 9 actual demolishers. That's 15 Bring it Down points sure, but it's not worth anything else. No-one is going to take Assassinate on 2 characters.
That means you just need to prevent the enemy from scoring board focused secondaries. Take the typical gunnery experts and spotter detail combo. Use the standard demolishers to screen the tank commanders. If anyone charges you just fallback with that tank and hit them with the others. Could work.
Another crazy idea is Scions and Chimeras, but as an AM list not an MT one. Take all the Scions as minimum 5 man squads with 2 plasma or melta, take 3 Primes, and 3 Scion Command Squads. Take Chimeras for every unit, with 2 heavy flamers and track guards. That's 12 vehicles to just flood the board first turn and second turn you drop the Scions. Sure you don't have Lions, but that's still a ton of plasma or melta hitting on 3+ with orders.
What do you think the best regiment would be if you were running an all vehicles list?
For most, Catachan provides a lot of efficiency. Look how strong something like Master Artisans can be for Marines? Having access to that many free rerolls for number of shots over the course of a game (especially for Manticores, etc...) will just add easy, obvious value.
Points will likely make or break them but gaunts ghosts feel like one of the best sniper squads for astra militarum. The reduction of a strategems per round by 1cp to 0 is pretty broken as well.
24-48in range ignore cover weapons on a bs2 (except for 1 guy who shoots 2x if he misses) squad with a 3+ 5++ and -1 to hit and immune to range atks over 18in and immune to morale And can issue orders (on themselves) and can infiltrate if you want but why would you? You want to protect that -1 to strategem guy and stay over 18in away in cover. And just in case a squad does make it into melee range they always fight last.
Discuss
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/08/ever-wanted-to-field-an-entire-squad-of-specialist-heroes-gaunts-ghosts-have-you-covered/
gungo wrote: Points will likely make or break them but gaunts ghosts feel like one of the best sniper squads for astra militarum. The reduction of a strategems per round by 1cp to 0 is pretty broken as well.
24-48in range ignore cover weapons on a bs2 (except for 1 guy who shoots 2x if he misses) squad with a 3+ 5++ and -1 to hit and immune to range atks over 18in and immune to morale And can issue orders (on themselves) and can infiltrate if you want but why would you? You want to protect that -1 to strategem guy and stay over 18in away in cover. And just in case a squad does make it into melee range they always fight last.
Discuss
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/08/ever-wanted-to-field-an-entire-squad-of-specialist-heroes-gaunts-ghosts-have-you-covered/
In regards to the stratagem cost reduction. To my understanding it does specify "on this unit" IMO they worded it poorly, but the spirit of it seems to be any stratagem that specifically affects that unit and only that unit meaning any stratagem you get the cost reduction on won't be super effective due to the small unit size and meh, sporadic firepower it has. More of a nice touch rather than anything gamebreaking.
For a truly thematic choice, be sure to not appreciate the contribution the Tanith make to your success.
OK, I laughed.
Also, I find it a little interesting that Cruddace mentioned the meta choice (is it still the meta choice?) for infantry traits. He's not wrong to think they fit the Tanith like a glove, of course, it's just...interesting.
I'd be curious to see if this is the sort of unit that attracts more fire than its output would warrant.
Also, I'm curious if we'll end up seeing Lascarbines as a weapon choice in the new dex...
It’s not worded well at all and it sounds like any strategem cast by thier detachment to me.
But let’s assume it’s as you say you still get
Inspired tactics free 2 orders
Take cover free +1 saves (making them 2+ in cover)
Grendiers free everyone throws grenades
Vengeance for Cadia free reroll hits and wounds vs chaos
Cut them down free
Command reroll free
Overwatch free
And several less useful 1cp strats...
Worst case they are annoying infiltrating objective grabbers
Among the levers avilable to GW's studio to revamp the Astra Militarum, are the weapons profiles changes. But as many weapon profiles are shared by other human factions, and some 9th ed' books are out without significant chages, apart from meltas, there are few possibilities here if they want to keep some coherency. Now I have came across the following profile for the Stygies vanquisher cannon in the legends PDF (page 64). I have not seen anyone here speak about it, so I am courious about what fellow dakkaites think about this bit of information.
So this may indicate that GW has already planned to shift the regular Leman Russ Vanquisher from "2D6 pick the highest" to D3+3 damage, in the 9th AM codex. Which will boost its efficiency, not by much, but somewhat. The mean damage value will go from about 4.5 to 5.5 : will this be enough to consider the vanquisher cannon, given its low rate of fire ?
as long as nothing changes about the BS... no. note that D3+3 is only 5 on average, not 5.5.
Compared to the battlecannon against a T8 target (it scales against other targets, both doubletap)
Sv3+: 2.5 damage (Vanquisher) vs. 3.5 (BC)
Sv4+: 2.5 damage (Vanquisher) vs. 2.92 (BC)
Sv3+: 2.08 vs. 2.33
Sv2+: 1.67 vs. 1.75
Sv1+: 1.25 vs. 1.17
So only against a (hypothetical) model with a 1+ and no invulnerability save is the S8, AP-3, D3+3 profile slightly better than a battlecannon. Meanwhile it looses more of its effectiveness if targeted at things whose number of wounds do fit suboptimally. I mean it in a sense that not only W1-4 or suboptimal targets, W11 (1/3 chance to kill with 2 unsaved wounds) and 12 (1/9th chance to kill with 2 unsaved wounds) are also, and those are pretty common in vehicles. I really hope they come up with more... better S, ignores Inv. saves, some kind of max damage against vehicles rule...
Vanquishers need D3 shots. Just look at the Macharius Vanquisher it's:
- Heavy 2, S16, AP-4, 9 Damage, and +1 BS against vehicles and monsters.
It's still trash, why? Because if anything has a -1 to Hit, an Invul save, a FNP type save, a +1 armour save or better, or a wound on 4/5/6 ability it's worthless. Even more so if they have a combination of these.
You can at least expect the regular battlecannon is going to flat 3 damage as they did the same to the battlecannon on the defiler in the death guard codex. (although they called it a defiler cannon now). The vanquisher would need more than D3+3 damage to make it compete with the battlecannon in that case.
Vanquisher trades rate of fire for range and on the smaller board you just never need 72" range. That's why the Demolisher is so much stronger than other options at the moment.
I will happily trade the vanquisher's range for 3-4 times as many shots with the Demolisher. Especially with spotter details pushing the Demolisher range to 30".
Even if you have to bring the Demolisher forward into danger and you lose it, it will still on average have put out almost the same firepower as the vanquisher surviving the whole game.
I would only take the Vanquisher if it was noticeably better against enemy armour than my other options. My dedicated tank killer should be better at killing tanks than a multi melta for example.
Strength 9, -4Sv, D6 damage with +2D6 damage against vehicle, monsterous or titanic enemies would be a start.
The only decent vanquisher in any edition was the vanquisher with co-axial stubber and beast hunter shells
In other words for a single shot weapon to be decent is if that shot has a built in reroll to hit.
And beast hunter shells was blast which would now be d3 hits.
D3 hits, str 9, ap-4, d6 dam (+d6 dam vs monster/vehicle)
Possible resurgence of the Wyvern? Wyvern were super popular in 8th but the meta went into 2 wound and 3 wound infantry really hurt it, wondering if the new drukhari, death-guard, and admech meta the single damage wyvern might see some play? Its not terribly expensive and I think most lists can afford to bring one, also might change your opponents tactics of trying to leave a cheap unit to hold his home objective
This has been my idea on Leman Russ turret weapons for awhile:
- Annihilator lascannons: Damage D3 + 3.
- Battle cannon: Damage 3.
- Conqueror cannon: Damage 2. Comes with free storm bolter.
- Demolisher cannon: Damage 4.
- Eradicator: Damage 2. Gains "If a unit is hit by this weapon, in their following Movement phase they must halve their Move characteristic and cannot Advance" ability.
- Executioner plasma cannon: Damage 2 on standard. Damage 3 on overcharge.
- Exterminator autocannons: Heavy 6 or Heavy 8 depending on points cost.
- Punisher: Personally I think it's fine, it just needs a points drop.
- Vanquisher: Heavy D3. S12. AP-3. Damage D3 + 3. Give it Blast and remove the previous ability.
In terms of survivability, all Leman Russ hull vehicles should get 14 wounds and a 2+ save against shooting attacks (3+ save in melee). Anything larger Malcador, Macharius, Baneblade, etc would get the improved save as well.
In terms of Tank Commanders, I'd probably increase them by another 5 points. But I'd also give them a second order, increase their order range to 18 inch, and give them the ability to refund CP when taken as the Warlord in a Spearhead detachment.
I personally think any platform that is BS 4+ should be 10 point heavy-bolters, and 15 pt las-cannon and plasma-cannons, this would really help regular leman-russes see play, also possibly reduce heavy-flamers to 10pts each on every chassis.
This would be fun too because I feel leman-russes with sponsons look more futuristic and I always love the idea of guard with mass heavy-bolters in their army.
I highly doubt any rebate for BS 4+ vehicle weapons will happen in the 9th edition codex.
And for the Wyvern : yes it is good, but the Save 3+ metagame really puts it in the shadow. On top of that, the wyvern is too expensive now. Its cost has been raised Chapter Approved after Chapter approved, while it has not dominated IG lists. I wonder why. Perhaps the Wyvern is still atoning its sins during 7th edition, when it was completely broken.
waefre_1 wrote: Didn't we have that in a Fortification at some point?
It was the Aegis defence line, from 6th edition. It had rules up to 8th. But this fortification included quad regular autocannons, not the longer range Hydra autocannons.
bat702 wrote: I personally think any platform that is BS 4+ should be 10 point heavy-bolters, and 15 pt las-cannon and plasma-cannons, this would really help regular leman-russes see play, also possibly reduce heavy-flamers to 10pts each on every chassis.
This would be fun too because I feel leman-russes with sponsons look more futuristic and I always love the idea of guard with mass heavy-bolters in their army.
They should have just made heavy weapons follow the same logic as special weapons. Have a BS4+ and a BS3+ cost. That'd give another advantage to standard Leman Russ tanks over Tank Commanders, they'd be able to take more secondary weapons.
People, listen, this is a prophetic vision ! Yes, I had a premonitory vision of a parcel of the 9th edition codex.
And it looks pretty bleak... Yep.
You see, recent codices introduce or revamp bespoke set of rules, that are chosen and cast in the command phase. It looks like they had introduced the command phase specifically for that. The command protocols for Necrons, or canticles for the omnissiah, for cult mechanicus are good examples. So what is the closest set of rules that Astra Militarum has to these ? Yes, it is orders. But from their introduction in the 5th edition codex, orders have been chosen and cast in the beginning of the shooting phase. Somewhat weirdly, because it means there exists some sort of beggining-of-shooting-phase step, that does not exist for any other codex. So, what feels the most consistent way to fit AM rules into 9th edition codex canvas ? Displace the orders into the command phase ! Order = command. Seems legit, right ? This will mean the following consequences.
For the squad to benefit from an order, the squad would need to be on the field, and in officer range during the command phase. We will no longer be able to order a squad to reroll to hit, if this squad comes from reserves. No longer we will be able to safely and accurately overcharge plasma scions that just deep struck. Same for FRFSRF those hot shot laser guns. There is more. No longer we will be able to FRFSRF (or move-move-move) this infantry squad disembarking from a Chimera, Taurox or Valkyrie. As the order should be be put before movement, not after, there will be no "need" for an additional movement in case of move, move, move order. Meaning it will probably be nerfed, to look like what it was during 7th edition (a little boost to a regular advance). Finally, while the order will need to be cast before making any repositionning on your movement phase, the squad and officers arrangement on the table will need to be planned one turn in advance. This is significant. The guardsmen are among the squishiest infantry models around. Thus arrangements that would allow for an officer to issue a potentially interesting order to a nearby squad will be spotted and countered easily by the opponent. This will affect objective grabbing, as well as optimizing firepower. The only arrangements that will get unaffected by this change will be static gunlines that don't plan to move much.
Unfortunately, future attempts at mobile Astra Militarum infantry are doomed.
Oh, don't be so doom-and-gloom. GW could decide to shift gears on that mid-edition and remove Orders entirely, freeing us from the burden of worrying about anything other than Stratagems in the Command Phase.
How many points do these guys cost? That would really determine if they are good or not. I like the abilities on them; makes me think a bit of the Triumph of St. Katherine except a lot less, err, saintly (in that you start to lose capabilities as you take casualties).
It’s a decent unit depending on points and depending on colonel cornek ability…
I cormek reduces most strstegems cost by 1 cp then at 140 it’s a steal! Drop this unit in your backfield to camp an objective.
If it only allows strats cast on this unit or involving this unit it will likely still be a decent objective camping unit at 120-140… anything more then that I don’t know.
But remember this unit can use all these strats for free
Inspired tactics free 2 orders
Take cover free +1 saves (making them 2+ in cover)
Grendiers free everyone throws grenades
Vengeance for Cadia free reroll hits and wounds vs chaos
Cut them down free
Command reroll free
Overwatch free
And several less useful 1cp strats...
So assuming you remember all thier abilities and use the free strats above your get a 24-48in range ignore cover weapons on a bs2/3 (except for 1 guy who shoots 2x if he misses) (don’t forget that free reroll) squad with a 3+ (2+ W/take cover strat) 5++ and -1 to hit and immune to range atks over 18in and immune to morale And can issue orders (on themselves up to 2) and can infiltrate if you want but why would you? You want to protect that -1 to strategem guy and stay over 18in away in cover. And just in case a squad does make it into melee range they always fight last after you can overwatch and use grenade strat for free.
It’s an annoying unit for someone to waste shots on but thier only real purpose is objective camping or mission play. Thier offense even with all thier buffs is basically a bunch of lasguns, an autocannon, and sniper rifle.
You see, recent codices introduce or revamp bespoke set of rules, that are chosen and cast in the command phase. It looks like they had introduced the command phase specifically for that. The command protocols for Necrons, or canticles for the omnissiah, for cult mechanicus are good examples. So what is the closest set of rules that Astra Militarum has to these ? Yes, it is orders. But from their introduction in the 5th edition codex, orders have been chosen and cast in the beginning of the shooting phase. Somewhat weirdly, because it means there exists some sort of beggining-of-shooting-phase step, that does not exist for any other codex. So, what feels the most consistent way to fit AM rules into 9th edition codex canvas ? Displace the orders into the command phase ! Order = command. Seems legit, right ? This will mean the following consequences.
For the squad to benefit from an order, the squad would need to be on the field, and in officer range during the command phase. We will no longer be able to order a squad to reroll to hit, if this squad comes from reserves. No longer we will be able to safely and accurately overcharge plasma scions that just deep struck. Same for FRFSRF those hot shot laser guns. There is more. No longer we will be able to FRFSRF (or move-move-move) this infantry squad disembarking from a Chimera, Taurox or Valkyrie. As the order should be be put before movement, not after, there will be no "need" for an additional movement in case of move, move, move order. Meaning it will probably be nerfed, to look like what it was during 7th edition (a little boost to a regular advance). Finally, while the order will need to be cast before making any repositionning on your movement phase, the squad and officers arrangement on the table will need to be planned one turn in advance. This is significant. The guardsmen are among the squishiest infantry models around. Thus arrangements that would allow for an officer to issue a potentially interesting order to a nearby squad will be spotted and countered easily by the opponent. This will affect objective grabbing, as well as optimizing firepower. The only arrangements that will get unaffected by this change will be static gunlines that don't plan to move much.
It depends on how they decide to do it. Company Commanders might have a reroll 1 aura. Like a Tech-Priest Dominus. The other orders would probably be more straight forward.
Kebabcito wrote: someone knows if they release from time to time for preorder some regiments like they did february '20 with Valhallan?
It can happen anytime, or never again... because they may stop making metal models.
Three of the old V2 regiments had a long print run (just the basic squads), then were discontinued shortly after the AM 8th ed' codex, in june 2018.
Along with all the Vostroyans and all the add-ons of Steel Legion (except the basic squad) which were also cut off.
Vostroyan complete range was surprinsingly remade available shortly again, end of december 2018, approximately six months after being discontinued.
A not quite complete Valhallan range was reissued in february 2020, to have something accompany the Tau/AM/GC psychic awakening book.
They should have redone the Mordians and Tallarn too, but made an unexplained focus on only one regiment.
Now, along with reedition of Tanith books, we have some of their heroes, but completely redone in plastic. They could have reissued the old metal sculpts, but no.
A the guy who wants to build and run Mordians etc. presently can't build them from GW, and thus can't run them in a GW tournament unless they beg borrow and steal whatever old metal they can find.
Considering they already blew away chunks of Krieg recently, and given the "what's in the box is what's in the game" trend, I have started to worry that GW might squat some of these other regiments (at least for a while) to deny business to the custom shops making models for regiments GW isn't producing.
Would love some indication that this will not happen.
As the guy who wants to build and run Mordians etc. presently can't build them from GW, and thus can't run them in a GW tournament unless they beg borrow and steal whatever old metal they can find.
Considering they already blew away chunks of Krieg recently, and given the "what's in the box is what's in the game" trend, I have started to worry that GW might squat some of these other regiments (at least for a while) to deny business to the custom shops making models for regiments GW isn't producing.
Would love some indication that this will not happen.
Honestly, I don't have high hopes. We could very well see units like:
- Conscripts
- Special Weapon Squads
- Veterans
Just disappear, and have their roles overlapped with Infantry Squads. Something like:
Increase the Infantry Squad size to 9 - 19 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant.
• For every ten models in this unit, up to 2 model’s lasguns can be replaced with up to 2 flamers, or 2 grenade launchers.
• For every ten models in this unit, 1 model’s lasgun can be replaced with 1 sniper rifle, 1 melta gun, or 1 plasma gun.
• The Sergeant's laspistol can be replaced with one of the following: 1 bolter, 1 bolt pistol, or 1 plasma pistol.
• The Sergeant's chainsword can be replaced with 1 power sword.
• One Guardsmen may take 1 vox-caster.
I also imagine they'd remove Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry Squads and Command Squads, because those don't come in the kit.
kirotheavenger wrote: Command Phase orders is almost a given. We can expect a strat to issue an out-of-phase order, like Chaplains have.
But mechanised/airborne infantry is going to struggle to benefit from orders.
I have a feeling we'll also get something similar to Necron protocols as well. Not sure what they'd call them probably field operations. Something like:
1. Prepare Fighting Positions:
- Option 1: Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model with this field operation, add 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack. Provided this unit did not make a Normal Move, Advance or Fall Back this battle round,
- Option 2: Each time an enemy unit declares a charge against this unit, if this unit is not within Engagement Range of any enemy units, it can either Hold Steady or Set to Defend.
We might loose veterans or special weapon squad but I can almost assure you we will get a similar new unit. Pretty much every army getting new models is getting a new improved elite unit box.
It’s just gw way of retiring old models and forcing to buy new ones. Veterans will disappear and instead we get “astra special forcecus” that are just like veterans but hsve the new carbine lasgun.
It's in the fourth event discussed in the article, but a pure Astra Militarum list took second place at the Waaagh! Fest GT last weekend. Lots and lots of Catachan infantry, boosted by Straken, Harker, and a Ministorum Priest and backed up by a detachment of 9th Iotan Gorgonnes Scions. A couple of the basically mandatory Manticores showed up as well.
Even as someone who's never actually played a pure Guard list, I'm intrigued to say the least. It does confirm my hypothesis that Catachan is clearly the best regiment in the codex, and better than many of the custom regiments as well. I'm in the process of procuring enough infantry to run something like this already, so it's nice to see I'm on the right track. Of course, by time I actually have a pure AM list ready, the new codex will drop and it'll completely change how the army plays...
It's in the fourth event discussed in the article, but a pure Astra Militarum list took second place at the Waaagh! Fest GT last weekend. Lots and lots of Catachan infantry, boosted by Straken, Harker, and a Ministorum Priest and backed up by a detachment of 9th Iotan Gorgonnes Scions. A couple of the basically mandatory Manticores showed up as well.
Even as someone who's never actually played a pure Guard list, I'm intrigued to say the least. It does confirm my hypothesis that Catachan is clearly the best regiment in the codex, and better than many of the custom regiments as well. I'm in the process of procuring enough infantry to run something like this already, so it's nice to see I'm on the right track. Of course, by time I actually have a pure AM list ready, the new codex will drop and it'll completely change how the army plays...
The sad part is... that is a list that is essentially one that is already meta for Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, 10 squads in a Brigade?
It's in the fourth event discussed in the article, but a pure Astra Militarum list took second place at the Waaagh! Fest GT last weekend. Lots and lots of Catachan infantry, boosted by Straken, Harker, and a Ministorum Priest and backed up by a detachment of 9th Iotan Gorgonnes Scions. A couple of the basically mandatory Manticores showed up as well.
Even as someone who's never actually played a pure Guard list, I'm intrigued to say the least. It does confirm my hypothesis that Catachan is clearly the best regiment in the codex, and better than many of the custom regiments as well. I'm in the process of procuring enough infantry to run something like this already, so it's nice to see I'm on the right track. Of course, by time I actually have a pure AM list ready, the new codex will drop and it'll completely change how the army plays...
That’s good to see. Lots of things I would have done differently though.
I recommend taking a Callidus Assassin. Their Reign of Confusion ability is great against basically any 9th edition army. Every time the enemy pops a stratagem in the 1st battle round, you roll a D6. On a 4+ they must spend an extra CP to use it or it has no effect AND no refund. There’s also a stratagem that makes the ability apply until the end of the 2nd battle round. So you get 2 of your turns and 2 of the enemies turns of security.
The best part? It’s not an aura, it just applies to every stratagem. The assassin doesn’t even need to be on the table. They can be in deep strike. Deep strike is even incentivised, as they also get an ability that lets them deep strike D6 + 3 rather than 9 inch away from the enemy.
The next interesting part is if they kill a enemy character you get 1 CP, and if it’s the warlord you get 2 CP. This is also in addition to any CP you can get refunded back.
This can be a huge boon for Guard. Effectively you’re giving up a 100 points for 1 or 2 battle rounds for a utility buff. One that can work defensively by shutting down your opponents offensive stratagems, offensively by shutting down their defensive stratagems, and also by depleting their CP. Which is a finite resource.
You can also use the assassin later to get things like engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines. You can also use them to “snipe” enemy support characters, I wouldn’t suggest charging a melee focused character for obvious reasons, however they could easily take out something like a Librarian, Tech Marine, Apothecary, GEQ characters, etc. Or just use them to wipe a poorly defended backfield objective your opponent thought was screened out.
TL/DR:
- Guard have no access to a unit like this in their own codex, it provides an army wide ability for 1 - 2 turns. Can potentially give you CP, and opens up a ton of options.
It's also something that might be even more useful for Scions, as they are very front-loaded with having to get as much done as possible in the first and second round of the game.
The strategem to extend Reign of Confusion can be used in any battle round, not just the second. Although you can only use it once per battle.
Not only that, but you can use it even after she's died.
Although I find the Callidus herself a little underwhelming, there's a pretty decent chance she fails to kill an MeQ character in one round of combat.
kirotheavenger wrote: The strategem to extend Reign of Confusion can be used in any battle round, not just the second. Although you can only use it once per battle.
Not only that, but you can use it even after she's died.
Although I find the Callidus herself a little underwhelming, there's a pretty decent chance she fails to kill an MeQ character in one round of combat.
Yeah, she's terrible in combat. I take her purely for her ability.
I like to think of it as a 7 warp charge psychic power. Goes off 50% of the time, but cannot be denied, unlimited range, and can be casted on every enemy stratagem for 1 or 2 battle rounds. That really makes her better in my eyes than say an Inquisitor.
I completely agree, she's really bad at doing damage. Against a MEQ on average I think you'll score 2-3 wounds. When I deepstrike her, I'll either go for an already weakened character say something I shot at but didn't kill, the enemies weakest character, or I'll send her to harass a poorly defended enemy backline objective. If there's none of those, then I might drop her in my lines as a melee counterattack. At least that way she'll get character protection and help from other units.
Honestly, if she actually does manage to kill anything that's just a bonus.
Quick question: do the Vendetta and Vulture gunship have the "Roving gunship" rule, just like the Valkyrie? It seems logical they have our since it is the same airframe, but I have no idea where to look.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Quick question: do the Vendetta and Vulture gunship have the "Roving gunship" rule, just like the Valkyrie? It seems logical they have our since it is the same airframe, but I have no idea where to look.
Unfortunately, neither of them have the rule. Their info can be found in Imperial Armour: Compendium from Forgeworld.
Tried an air cav list for the first time in 9th on Saturday, Wow losing the specialist detachment is really harsh, and those poor Scions couldn't hold objectives for a turn against the tidal wave of Orks.
It's in the fourth event discussed in the article, but a pure Astra Militarum list took second place at the Waaagh! Fest GT last weekend. Lots and lots of Catachan infantry, boosted by Straken, Harker, and a Ministorum Priest and backed up by a detachment of 9th Iotan Gorgonnes Scions. A couple of the basically mandatory Manticores showed up as well.
Even as someone who's never actually played a pure Guard list, I'm intrigued to say the least. It does confirm my hypothesis that Catachan is clearly the best regiment in the codex, and better than many of the custom regiments as well. I'm in the process of procuring enough infantry to run something like this already, so it's nice to see I'm on the right track. Of course, by time I actually have a pure AM list ready, the new codex will drop and it'll completely change how the army plays...
Sadly several players were already calling this basic theme back when 9th dropped. Im sure theres other viable options but it really sucks to see the list I ran for months straight with minor differences likely be the best we have right now. I guess it gives some hope that most of my difficulty was operator error on my part at least.
I will say looking at the new ork codex, a lot of the new artwork shows them fighting DKoK and Im pretty sure I saw death riders. Having a proper cavalry unit in the codex is going to help a lot, especially if its not locked to DKoK. Im also hoping the new tank, whatever it is, fills some sort of niche for us that we're missing. Honestly they could just pick a random discontinued FW tank and Id be happy, so maybe we'll see a centaur or someyhing, but it may be an all new design. Curious to see what comes of it. I suspect we'll see a new guard codex by the end of the year with a decent sized krieg release, so hopefully we dont need to wait long.
So what do people think about Crusaders? I dusted off my guard for the first time last week and tried running a heavy chimera/IS list and of course the IS just folded as soon as they hopped out or were forced out of their rides. Afterwards I started thinking about what I could do about holding my back field objectives. Looked at bulgryns as they are pretty tuff. Then I saw crusaders. I mean a 3+\4+ with a possible 2+ or better armor save right? I know T3/S3 and not obsec is lousy but looking at what you get - special abilities, storm shields, etc. I'm seriously thinking about putting a unit on an objective out in the open. Suggestions?
necron99 wrote: So what do people think about Crusaders? I dusted off my guard for the first time last week and tried running a heavy chimera/IS list and of course the IS just folded as soon as they hopped out or were forced out of their rides. Afterwards I started thinking about what I could do about holding my back field objectives. Looked at bulgryns as they are pretty tuff. Then I saw crusaders. I mean a 3+\4+ with a possible 2+ or better armor save right? I know T3/S3 and not obsec is lousy but looking at what you get - special abilities, storm shields, etc. I'm seriously thinking about putting a unit on an objective out in the open. Suggestions?
Funny you mention them, I literally just wrote up an article about them. I highly suggest you take them out from the Adepta Sororitas codex. Here you go:
I've been reading through the Adepta Sororitas codex recently, something dawned on me. You don't have to take Cult Imperialis units in an Adepta Soroitas detachment, thanks to every unit also having the Adeptus Ministorum faction keyword. Which means you could instead take an Adeptus Ministorum Vanguard or Spearhead detachments with solely Cult Imperialis units.
Why would you do this? I hear you ask.
1) It gets around the Decree Passive Adepta Soroitas restriction. Which means you can avoid any kind of Soroitas character tax.
2) You do lose out on any kind of stratagems, relics, and detachment abilities. However, you do get some synergy with taking them with Imperial Guard Ministorum Priests, who give them +1 attack. While you could say the same for Adepta Soroitas units they lose access to Miracle Dice, while Cult Imperialis don't have access to Acts of Faith anyway and also don't benefit from any detachment abilities. So the losses for them is only their stratagems and relics.
What units should I take?
HQ:
- Missionary: Either as your typical tax, or buffing unit with their war hymns. You are only limited to the War Hymn, Refrain of Blazing Piety, Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude, and Psalm of Righteous Smithing.
Elites:
- Arco-flagellants: Which if near a Guard Ministorum Priest has 3 attacks base, then if they're under the effect of War Hymn that goes up to 4 attacks base. Then thanks to their Flails that jumps up to 8 attacks per model, with 1 model getting 10 attacks if you give them the upgrade. The only unfortunate thing is that they do lose access to their stratagem that makes their Flails 3 hit rolls instead of 1. However, you do have to consider that a stratagem only affects 1 unit while a Ministorum Priest can buff multiple units, as well as not having to use the stratagem saves you CP, as well as the chance of models killing themselves. So it's not a complete loss.
- Crusaders: They're cheap. 11 points per model in the Adepta Soroitas codex so you get 3 of them for less than a Bullgryn. That's 198 points for a full 18 of them. Near a Ministorum Priest they each get 3 power sword attacks. A unit with War Hymns that's 4 power sword attacks.
- Death Cult Assassins: I would take them over Arco-flagellants personally. 4 attacks base. 5 with a Ministorum Priest. 6 with War Hyms, hits on 2+ rather than 4+, has S4 and AP-3.
- Preacher: Does the same job as the Missionary but cheaper, and doesn't take up a detachment slot. Can have an awesome heavy flamer.
Heavy Support:
- Mortifiers: While they don't benefit from Guard Ministorum Priests they can still benefit from War Hymns. They're also very efficient units. If you're thinking of taking Sentinels take these instead.
- Penitent Engines: Personally, I think they're worse than Mortifiers. You're basically getting a worse statline but you gain the ability to advance and charge.
Example Detachment:
HQ:
- Missionary
Elites:
- 3x Crusader Squads: With 6 models each.
- 3x Death Cult Assassin Squads: With 6 models each. One of these doesn't count towards your Elite slot.
That's only 472 points. If you stick a Ministorum Priest in the middle of those Death Cult Squads are capable of a minimum of 30 S4 AP-3 attacks at WS2+. Even each of those Crusader Squads can put out 24 S4 AP-3 attacks at WS3+ when near a Priest.
So if you want some cheap melee punch and are sick of relying on Bullgryns you could try giving this a go.
One funny thing is that a Missionary/Preacher can give Gotfret de Montbard a War Hymn, because he's a Adeptus Ministorum character. Not competitive. Just a fun thing to point out.
I will say looking at the new ork codex, a lot of the new artwork shows them fighting DKoK and Im pretty sure I saw death riders. Having a proper cavalry unit in the codex is going to help a lot, especially if its not locked to DKoK. Im also hoping the new tank, whatever it is, fills some sort of niche for us that we're missing. Honestly they could just pick a random discontinued FW tank and Id be happy, so maybe we'll see a centaur or someyhing, but it may be an all new design. Curious to see what comes of it. I suspect we'll see a new guard codex by the end of the year with a decent sized krieg release, so hopefully we dont need to wait long.
There's tons of Scion artwork coming out too. So maybe some more love there.
I ran into a guy running crusaders recently. 5 of them stepped up to my guys, FRFSRF lasguns into them did nothing, then they chopped the squad in half. I've painted up 10 to see what they can do. Kind of suspect bullgryns are going to do more, but durability is in such short supply it's worth exploring options.
I know it's a super long shot, but do people think that there is any chance we might see characters (new characters or new models) for each regiment return? The return of Gaunt makes we hope there is a (small) chance.
Extremely unlikely. Gaunt was dead even before they rejigged the timeline a bit. The Tanith are still likely around, but they wouldn't be "The First and Only" anymore.
Salted Diamond wrote: I know it's a super long shot, but do people think that there is any chance we might see characters (new characters or new models) for each regiment return? The return of Gaunt makes we hope there is a (small) chance.
I'd love to think they would, but it's been years since they axed the other regiments and IIRC most of the old characters never had models to begin with. I know that stuff like this can take a while, especially since we're not Space Marines and thus have to graciously give up release slots for their kits (), but all we've seen since is one-shot characters, an upgrade sprue (which heavily implies no major refresh for the Cadians), and now a single plastic Kreig kit (which may or may not herald a full plastic Krieg range) and a single hero-unit kit for Tanith (who only ever had a single hero-unit to begin with, though admittedly with more minis due to when it took place in the series, and whose kit coincides with new BL material).
I want to be wrong. I want to believe GW will wow us with a codex released alongside revamped or new regimentS. I'm not holding my breath.
Salted Diamond wrote: I know it's a super long shot, but do people think that there is any chance we might see characters (new characters or new models) for each regiment return? The return of Gaunt makes we hope there is a (small) chance.
I'd love to think they would, but it's been years since they axed the other regiments and IIRC most of the old characters never had models to begin with. I know that stuff like this can take a while, especially since we're not Space Marines and thus have to graciously give up release slots for their kits (), but all we've seen since is one-shot characters, an upgrade sprue (which heavily implies no major refresh for the Cadians), and now a single plastic Kreig kit (which may or may not herald a full plastic Krieg range) and a single hero-unit kit for Tanith (who only ever had a single hero-unit to begin with, though admittedly with more minis due to when it took place in the series, and whose kit coincides with new BL material).
I want to be wrong. I want to believe GW will wow us with a codex released alongside revamped or new regimentS. I'm not holding my breath.
It's the recent batch of one-shot characters that is making me hope for it. The 2 (albeit very limited) Catachan officers seemed to go super quick, the "death" of Creed, the return of regiments, etc.. It seemed to work for SM with each 1st founding getting a Primaris version of existing or a brand new character. Now seems like it would be a perfect time to bring new characters to IG for each regiment.
Salted Diamond wrote: I know it's a super long shot, but do people think that there is any chance we might see characters (new characters or new models) for each regiment return? The return of Gaunt makes we hope there is a (small) chance.
I'd love to think they would, but it's been years since they axed the other regiments and IIRC most of the old characters never had models to begin with. I know that stuff like this can take a while, especially since we're not Space Marines and thus have to graciously give up release slots for their kits (), but all we've seen since is one-shot characters, an upgrade sprue (which heavily implies no major refresh for the Cadians), and now a single plastic Kreig kit (which may or may not herald a full plastic Krieg range) and a single hero-unit kit for Tanith (who only ever had a single hero-unit to begin with, though admittedly with more minis due to when it took place in the series, and whose kit coincides with new BL material).
I want to be wrong. I want to believe GW will wow us with a codex released alongside revamped or new regimentS. I'm not holding my breath.
It's the recent batch of one-shot characters that is making me hope for it. The 2 (albeit very limited) Catachan officers seemed to go super quick, the "death" of Creed, the return of regiments, etc.. It seemed to work for SM with each 1st founding getting a Primaris version of existing or a brand new character. Now seems like it would be a perfect time to bring new characters to IG for each regiment.
Initially I agreed with you - I've heard that GW sometimes puts out first-run/prototype/testbed/just-didn't-make-the-kit sculpts as characters, which makes a good deal of sense (and thus, paradoxically, becomes less likely since, y'know, GW). However, 8th seems like it was as much a last hurrah for a lot of legacy things as anything else - just look at all the rules we got for FW stuff that have been OoP for the better part of a decade (if not longer), which then just got Legends'd between the 8e Codex and now. I guess I would have expected less of that and more re-releases or revamps if the one-off characters sculpts were anything other than a minimum-effort "See, we haven't forgotten you exist!" sort of deal.
Aye, but how much work, though? Getting the upgraded sprue alongside the plastic Krieg and Tanith is a good trend, but will it continue or is this our lot until 10e? I don't think we have enough info to say one way or another, but I'm still not putting money on a decent overhaul/revamp/re-release until we get some clear indication that it'll happen.
The problem, bluntly, is something I've continually harped upon:
Regiments, as a concept, have never worked in the way that people like to pretend they do.
Steel Legion? That's meant to be a specific "style" of Regiment fielded by Armageddon, not the entirety of their forces. Same for Cadian Shock Troops, Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiments, etc etc etc.
The Death Korps Veteran and Gaunt's Ghosts sets at least gives some hope that they might be pulling a big ol' reset and moving towards that.
Skitarii and Cult aren't the Forgeworlds though?
Forgeworlds is the direct equivalent to regiments (although by "regiment" they really mean homeworld).
kirotheavenger wrote: Skitarii and Cult aren't the Forgeworlds though?
Forgeworlds is the direct equivalent to regiments (although by "regiment" they really mean homeworld).
And Doctrina Imperatives aren't Canticles of the Omnissiah.
You understand that when I say 'different mechanics', I'm referring to how the army actually plays right?
Right now, a Skitarii heavy army wants different things than a Cult heavy army.
As it stands in any regards, the discussion is pointless. Who knows how things will play out. They're starting to show that they are not afraid of allowing you to actually "mix and match" different playstyles.
That's all well and good (and honestly, I'd prefer picking regiments based on specialty and have homeworld be player's choice), but I was talking about the miniatures specifically. GW will almost certainly keep the regimental traits in some form, but I question whether they will bring back the old regimental minis.
I'd love to think they would, but it's been years since they axed the other regiments and IIRC most of the old characters never had models to begin with.
That’s not true.
Jarms48 wrote: There's tons of Guard characters that had models in the past, but don't have rules anymore.
- Captain Al'Rahem (Tallarn Desert Raiders): Previously had a model.
- Captain Obadiah Schfeer (Varolian): Previously had a FW model.
- Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt (Tanith First and Only): Previously had a model and also now has a new kit.
- Colonel Schaeffer (13th Penal Legion): Previously had a model.
- Colonel Stranski (Cadian): Previously had a FW model.
- Commander Chenkov (Valhallan Ice Warriors): Previously had a model.
- General Grizmund (Narmenian): Previously had a FW model.
- Marshall Karis Venner (Death Korps of Krieg): Previously had a FW model.
- Lieutenant Kage (13th Penal Legion): Previously had a model.
- Lord Solar Macharius: Previously had a model.
- Maximillian Weisemann (Mortant): Previously had a FW model.
Guard characters that had models but never had rules:
- Commissar Ciaphas Cain (Officio Perfectus): Previously had a limited BL model.
- Sergeant "Ripper "Jackson (Catachan): Limited edition model.
To be fair, I had misremembered a number of those - either the decrepitude of middle age is catching up with me, or they were mostly/entirely out by the time I was looking for them back in late 4th/early 5th (or both). Either way, with GW being the way they are these days re: models/rules, I don't think we can expect any of the old ones back, so we'd have to pin our hopes on a new bunch.
"Kage" was part of the Schaeffer's Last Chancers set. That's a bit of a misnomer to list him out by himself.
He had his own statline same as Creed and Kell. He wasn't just a Last Chancer like the rest.
I cannot actually find a "Marshal Karis Venner" model. I can find a Marshal that everyone uses for Venner, so that might be the disconnect?
Pretty sure they pulled him from the store. That's why he's been removed in compendium.
A big chunk of what you posted as well were just "tank aces" in the first Imperial Armour: Guard+Navy book.
And? They had their own unique models, backgrounds, rules and abilities. Are you going to tell me Pask isn't a unique character?
General Grizmund in particular is also from Gaunts Ghosts.
waefre_1 wrote: Either way, with GW being the way they are these days re: models/rules, I don't think we can expect any of the old ones back, so we'd have to pin our hopes on a new bunch.
I'd agree with this, GW being GW.
Though I'd have liked to see legends rules for them.
Also, you listed out Kage but not Kell hence my pointing out it's a bit of a misnomer calling him out as a special character.
If you didn't notice, I only mentioned characters that have either had models and rules in the past but don't anymore, or characters that had models but never had rules. Characters like Creed, Kell, Pask, Strakken, Harker, Yarrick, etc I didn't mention because they can be found in our current ruleset.
So the Guard is calling me back! Its been about 2 years since I played them, but played them for about a decade before that.
This time around I plan on running a ton of scions- with very limited vehicles for the time being.
Essentially I would be running 6-10 scion squads, a few 5 man suicide squads, and a few 10 man for trying to hold objectives.
In addition I plan on running 10 ratlings, and a bullgryn squad with the mandatory priest to babysit and inspire them.
I was thinking of expanding this out to having a patrol of regular guard, maybe a spearhead, with artillery. I know manticore's are great, but how are basilisks and wyverns fairing at the moment?
And does massed scions backed by artillery sound somewhat viable?
I've been playing pure Scion infantry recently. My list has been:
Spoiler:
3 battalions, only 4 CP left to play with. All Lambdan Lions.
HQ: - 3 Tempestor Primes: 1 has the Keys to the Armour and the MT relic that gives an extra order. 1 has Master of Command and Laurels of Command. All of them have command rods. - 3 Lord Commissars: Each has a plasma pistol.
Troops: - 11 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol. - 5 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. 4 models with plasma guns. Tempestor has a plasma pistol. - 2 MT Scion Squads: 5 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.
Basically the 2 5 man squads are for secondaries. The 11 standard squads are for holding down objectives. Then the 5 plasma squads drop in around the Keys to the Armour Prime to get the rerolls and blast anything with plasma bolts.
It's been working pretty well. Though I do think I would do better swapping a lot of those 11 squads of standard Scions for Conscripts or Infantry Squads instead.
Though I've been tempted to go the other way as well and try Scions with a supporting Adeptus Ministorum detachment. Such as:
Spoiler:
Lambdan Lions Battalion:
HQ: - 3 Tempestor Primes: All with command rods. 1 with Keys to the Armoury and Refractor Field Generator.
Troops: - 4 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. 4 models with plasma guns. Tempestor has a plasma pistol. - 2 MT Scion Squads: 5 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.
Adepta Sororitas (though really an Adeptus Ministorum) Vanguard:
HQ: - Celestine and Geminae Superia: She fulfils the requirement for Decree Passive. - Missionary
Elites: - 3 Crusader Squads: 5 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot. - 3 Arco-flagellant Squads: 10 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot. - 2 Death Cult Assassin Squads: 5 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot.
Subtotal: 925 points.
Total: 1990 points. Still need to iron this out.
General game plan is Crusaders would hold objectives. All the other units in the Adepta Sororitas detachment as well as the 2 Ministorum Priests would move up to secure mid-field. Arco-flagellants try to tank hits with their 2 wounds, 5+++, potentially a 6++ from Celestine.
Heafstaag wrote: So the Guard is calling me back! Its been about 2 years since I played them, but played them for about a decade before that.
This time around I plan on running a ton of scions- with very limited vehicles for the time being.
Essentially I would be running 6-10 scion squads, a few 5 man suicide squads, and a few 10 man for trying to hold objectives.
In addition I plan on running 10 ratlings, and a bullgryn squad with the mandatory priest to babysit and inspire them.
I was thinking of expanding this out to having a patrol of regular guard, maybe a spearhead, with artillery. I know manticore's are great, but how are basilisks and wyverns fairing at the moment?
And does massed scions backed by artillery sound somewhat viable?
My meta is semi-competitive, if that helps.
Recently won a game against Tau using a list similar to the one which got 2nd in a tournament recently. From that, I'd say a semi-competitive list needs the following:
-A large amount of objective secured bodies to hold 2-3 objectives (depending on game size) while taking fire for the entire game.
-Artillery (Manticores/Basilisks) to take out opponent's obsec bodies and damage anything that can shred our troops quickly
-Something that can punish an opponent when they make a mistake (Scions to drop on a lightly defended objective/snipe an easy to reach character, etc.)
-stuff to accomplish secondaries, which can also do the above. We will be giving away secondaries at the moment (attrition and assassination), so picking units to accomplish our own secondaries and picking the right secondaries is critical
To answer your question on Basilisks and Wyverns, I haven't seen much beyond a single Basilisk; the lack of their fire-twice stratagem hurts them in relation to Manticores.
Ah the Wyvern, once unbearably overpowered and obnoxious regarding the resolution of its shots in 7th edition, how this artillery vehicle has fallen !
It began 8th edition priced at 85+8=93 points, from the 2017 index, the codex, and first Chapter Approved.
Then 2018 & 2019 Chapter Approved raised its cost quite a bit to 103 points.
9th dropped, and Chapter Approved 2020 absolutely nerfed it to 120+15 points. Yikes +31% !
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.
Rules studio seems to value its 4D6 blast + indirect fire very high.
Yet this artillery is out of favor since a long time in competitive lists.
There is no overwhelming tournament presence that supports such nerfs.
I still don't understand.
Ravajaxe wrote: Ah the Wyvern, once unbearably overpowered and obnoxious regarding the resolution of its shots in 7th edition, how this artillery vehicle has fallen !
It began 8th edition priced at 85+8=93 points, from the 2017 index, the codex, and first Chapter Approved.
Then 2018 & 2019 Chapter Approved raised its cost quite a bit to 103 points.
9th dropped, and Chapter Approved 2020 absolutely nerfed it to 120+15 points. Yikes +31% !
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.
Rules studio seems to value its 4D6 blast + indirect fire very high.
Yet this artillery is out of favor since a long time in competitive lists.
There is no overwhelming tournament presence that supports such nerfs.
I still don't understand.
It's in GW's nature to overcorrect units in price even long after they've left the competitive scene, I always feel GW has an edition delay when it comes to nerfs, which is compounded until it might swing back to normality a few editions later. It's why stuff like the Wraithknight and Scatbikes are pretty garbage right now, as are Conscripts and any other nerfed chaff unit like Grots.
Like I said, I think Krieg is about to be the new posterchild regiment. Theyve got art of them fighting orks on pretty much every single one of the art portaits for the new entries, especially beast snagga stuff. The fact that theres any Krieg vs orks artwork at all is pretty cool, but to see so much in the new ork codex is very surprising. Theres even a 2 page piece in the book where a kreig army is facing an ork army thats pretty cool.
This would mean theyre getting a trait in the 9th ed codex, we can only hope they listened to complaints over the FW version and improved them a bit.
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.
Yeah, it's pretty strange considering I can get 6 mortar teams for 100 points. If the Wyvern dropped even just 20 points it might actually be usable.
Like I said, I think Krieg is about to be the new posterchild regiment. Theyve got art of them fighting orks on pretty much every single one of the art portaits for the new entries, especially beast snagga stuff. The fact that theres any Krieg vs orks artwork at all is pretty cool, but to see so much in the new ork codex is very surprising. Theres even a 2 page piece in the book where a kreig army is facing an ork army thats pretty cool.
Yeah, I think they're going to push Krieg and Scions. There's been a ton of new Scion art and "army on display" photos shown recently.
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.
Yeah, it's pretty strange considering I can get 6 mortar teams for 100 points. If the Wyvern dropped even just 20 points it might actually be usable.
Absolutely. The embarassing dowside to mortar squads, is that they use a precious heavy support slot, so we have to confront their use with Manticores, Leman Russes etc... Now that we get an incentive to take the least amount of detachements possible, mortars teams are difficult to spam. They are individually a bit weak unit, that calls for being taken in numbers (which was the case during 8th). On the other hand, you can absolutely take a trio of wyverns in a single HS slot, spread them on the table with 12" movement without suffering -1 to hit.
The current vehicle squadron rules is what makes me think the 8th AM codex structure is upside down. You can circumvent the detachment's organisation chart by taking squadrons of 2 or 3 vehicles. But for infantry, this is the opposite : each (weak) 10-man squad takes up a slot. While other armies can take up to 20 or 30 infantry in a squad. I miss platoons. I wish we get platoons back, instead of vehicle squadrons.
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.
Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.
I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.
Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.
Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.
I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.
Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.
If anything's happening, I'm expecting Russes to get broken into "Siege", "Ambushers", and "Support" tanks or something.
Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.
Why?
Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?
The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.
Leman Russes will probably be two separate datasheets, normal and 'seige'. This is the way they were, and it matches the boxes.
We'll likely still have commanders, perhaps remaining as they are or as an upgrade.
I do agree that platoons are necessary for Guard. They have the mechanics to do it. Guard are a horde army with small squads - that means you can't fit the numbers in detachments unless you have platoons.
Also, expect special weapons to be 1 per Guard squad.
Kanluwen, We know you want Guard to be burnt down and remodelled in your vision, but it's simply not going to happen so discussing it in this context is entirely pointless.
Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.
Why?
Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?
The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.
***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***
May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)
***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***
May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)
And may I ask what your solution requires platoons for? It feels like the big thing is continually "We need bodies to be best". The answer is...not really? We just need better order management and some stuff to be split out. We can realistically be able to "horde" the board without going too crazy with actual bodies.
I've been over this heavily before, but here goes: -Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment. -Better Order mechanics and "renaming" of officer roles. Senior Officer as HQ choice, with a strat to upgrade them to Regimental Command. Junior Officer as HQ choice, bought in groups of 2. Strat to upgrade them to Staff Officers. Complete gutting of the current Orders and reworking into them as part of a tiered system. SOs have an army-wide Order they issue, which is fairly generic("Take Objectives!"--actions still allow for shooting, bonuses while on objectives, etc. "Wipe Them Out!"--bonus to shooting attacks. Etc), JrOs get a targeted Order they can issue("Dig in!", "Fire on my Target!", etc). RCs get a unique Order based on their Regiment. -Heavy Weapons Squads become 1-3, split into multiple units as per Heavy Weapons Teams. -Special Weapons Squads get swapped out in favor of a system ala the Elysian D99 system(Sniper Teams, all flamer squads, demo squads, etc). 2 model pairings that are their own units. -Command Squads lose access to HWTs and SWs instead becoming a 'unit' that consists of Bodyguards, Astropaths, and the other "Regimental Advisors".
Auxilias are a bit difficult to work with if only because they're not well designed at the moment. Scions should remain an option, but we could theoretically go back to them as Elites and give an all Scion+Navy detachment bonuses.
I mean, all honesty, could you imagine how much different the Guard would feel if Heavy Weapons Teams were their own unit and given a pseudo-character status? If SWS became groups of veterans outfitted for specific roles?
Hording the board doesn't necessarily mean we need "ALL THE MANS!" anymore.
***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***
May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)
And may I ask what your solution requires platoons for? It feels like the big thing is continually "We need bodies to be best". The answer is...not really? We just need better order management and some stuff to be split out. We can realistically be able to "horde" the board without going too crazy with actual bodies.
I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.
-Better Order mechanics and "renaming" of officer roles. Senior Officer as HQ choice, with a strat to upgrade them to Regimental Command. Junior Officer as HQ choice, bought in groups of 2. Strat to upgrade them to Staff Officers. Complete gutting of the current Orders and reworking into them as part of a tiered system. SOs have an army-wide Order they issue, which is fairly generic("Take Objectives!"--actions still allow for shooting, bonuses while on objectives, etc. "Wipe Them Out!"--bonus to shooting attacks. Etc), JrOs get a targeted Order they can issue("Dig in!", "Fire on my Target!", etc). RCs get a unique Order based on their Regiment.
-Heavy Weapons Squads become 1-3, split into multiple units as per Heavy Weapons Teams.
-Special Weapons Squads get swapped out in favor of a system ala the Elysian D99 system(Sniper Teams, all flamer squads, demo squads, etc). 2 model pairings that are their own units.
-Command Squads lose access to HWTs and SWs instead becoming a 'unit' that consists of Bodyguards, Astropaths, and the other "Regimental Advisors".
Auxilias are a bit difficult to work with if only because they're not well designed at the moment. Scions should remain an option, but we could theoretically go back to them as Elites and give an all Scion+Navy detachment bonuses.
I mean, all honesty, could you imagine how much different the Guard would feel if Heavy Weapons Teams were their own unit and given a pseudo-character status? If SWS became groups of veterans outfitted for specific roles?
Hording the board doesn't necessarily mean we need "ALL THE MANS!" anymore
.
The main problem I see with your options are the same issue guard face right now, they don't have the durability to make such options viable. With every unit able to split fire, a single T3 2W heavy weapons team split from a squad or a 2 man special weapons team would be picked off by 2-3 bolt rife shots. Guard does quantity to offset their lack of quality. Nothing you have suggested changes this.
I partially agree on the command squad point. While I would like to see command squads go back to how they used to act (place for body guards and advisers) I do not think they should loose their access to weapons that they have been able to take since at least 3rd Ed.
The main problem I see with your options are the same issue guard face right now, they don't have the durability to make such options viable. With every unit able to split fire, a single T3 2W heavy weapons team split from a squad or a 2 man special weapons team would be picked off by 2-3 bolt rife shots. Guard does quantity to offset their lack of quality. Nothing you have suggested changes this.
Cool, shoot at the HWT that is given a pseudo-character protection. Means you're not shooting at something else via split fire and you've had to get yourself into a spot to shoot it. Same thing goes for that 2 man SWT.
Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".
I've said time and time and time and time and time again at this juncture:
Guard cannot and will not be viable until they are given a complete rework. That means head to toe, everything must be reworked.
HWTs as T3 2W? Yeah, it might not seem crazy good on the surface...but given an "Entrenched" rule where they count as in terrain even in the open and gain a boost to their weapon of choice if they did not move? Where "Weapons Team" is a bespoke rule that grants you the same status as a character while also allowing for you to pawn wounds off on nearby Infantry Squads to have someone "pick up the slack"?
There's a lot that's needed. Platoons ain't it.
I partially agree on the command squad point. While I would like to see command squads go back to how they used to act (place for body guards and advisers) I do not think they should loose their access to weapons that they have been able to take since at least 3rd Ed.
They never acted the way I described. People have always packed them as full of specials as they can. You could throw advisors in to bolster the size of the Command Squad, but it's never been "Advisors and Bodyguards only!!!11!" since I got in with the Doctrines/EOT books.
Kanluwen wrote: Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".
That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.
Kanluwen wrote: I've said time and time and time and time and time again at this juncture:
Guard cannot and will not be viable until they are given a complete rework. That means head to toe, everything must be reworked.
HWTs as T3 2W? Yeah, it might not seem crazy good on the surface...but given an "Entrenched" rule where they count as in terrain even in the open and gain a boost to their weapon of choice if they did not move? Where "Weapons Team" is a bespoke rule that grants you the same status as a character while also allowing for you to pawn wounds off on nearby Infantry Squads to have someone "pick up the slack"?
There's a lot that's needed. Platoons ain't it.
Giving them such rules does not enough to help their durability as they are simply going from a 5+ to 4+. If they could pawn off wounds to a squad, it would just weaken/kill the squad off along with them, and a smart opponent would simply wipe the squad first or charge into engagement range of both. Platoons would give the extra bodies that would make such loses mean less to the guard player.
They never acted the way I described. People have always packed them as full of specials as they can. You could throw advisors in to bolster the size of the Command Squad, but it's never been "Advisors and Bodyguards only!!!11!" since I got in with the Doctrines/EOT books.
When officers were a part of the command squad as opposed to separate, most guard players I knew would only load up special weapons for anti-charge use. Company command squads would get bodyguards, astropaths. MOO's, etc... Making the officer part of the squad again I feel would return them to close to what you seem to be wanting. They still needs guardsmen in the command squads to give the options for vox, medic, flags, etc...
Kanluwen wrote: Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".
That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.
Or the Cadians. Or the Tallarn. Or the Tanith. Or the Steel Legion. Or the Catachans. Or the Elysians.
The "whole point of Guard" is that they are intended to be professional soldiery drawn from across the Imperium. Can they "drown the enemy with bodies"? Sure. But that's not what you do with your veteran shock infantry or stealthers.
Not every regiment is Valhallan or Cannonfodderonian.
The whole "drown the enemy with bodies" bit is a bit overplayed at this juncture anyways. It was in reference to them versus, say, the Eldar or Tau or Astartes--factions that are supposed to be unwilling or unable to absorb casualties, while the Guard can just tithe a new regiment.
Kanluwen wrote: Quantity doesn't offset quality for Guard. People just pretend it does. The army is, effectively, trash as it stands right now when it comes to anything but "LOLS MOAR DOODS".
That's the whole point of guard, drown the enemy with bodies. And quantity can offset quality. It seems to me that you want all of guard to play more like Scions.
Or the Cadians. Or the Tallarn. Or the Tanith. Or the Steel Legion. Or the Catachans. Or the Elysians.
The "whole point of Guard" is that they are intended to be professional soldiery drawn from across the Imperium. Can they "drown the enemy with bodies"? Sure. But that's not what you do with your veteran shock infantry or stealthers.
Not every regiment is Valhallan or Cannonfodderonian.
The whole "drown the enemy with bodies" bit is a bit overplayed at this juncture anyways. It was in reference to them versus, say, the Eldar or Tau or Astartes--factions that are supposed to be unwilling or unable to absorb casualties, while the Guard can just tithe a new regiment.
But all those regiments (except maybe Tanith) do still use massed infantry to make up for their (relative) weakness, maybe not in the suicidal way that Valhallan or Krieg, but still with large numbers. Lore wise they just use slightly different tactics in how to utilize those numbers based upon their regiment.
As you are so against platoons, how would you fix the guard Infantry squads?
But all those regiments (except maybe Tanith) do still use massed infantry to make up for their (relative) weakness, maybe not in the suicidal way that Valhallan or Krieg, but still with large numbers. Lore wise they just use slightly different tactics in how to utilize those numbers based upon their regiment.
Which is a huge difference in and of itself. It's also worth mentioning that even those factions like the Cadians which use "massed infantry"? They're only "massed" like that in apocalyptic scale events. Otherwise they operate much like a real world army does today or most highly trained armies did circa WW2.
As you are so against platoons, how would you fix the guard Infantry squads?
Not going to go beyond this...
3 different versions, based upon the actual model visuals: -Heavy(Cadian/Vostroyan) -Mid(Krieg/Elysian) -Light(Tallarn, Tanith, Catachan, Valhallan) 3 bespoke unit "types", each with a different statline, rules, and items available to the squad.
Individual units of two guardsman would just be plain obnoxious to play.
Your opponent would have to be constantly split firing attacks, that takes ages to resolve.
You'd have to be moving and firing your teams individually, that takes ages to resolve.
"But Tau drones do it too". Yeah, and they're universally hated it for it. Thats despite the fact that 1 drone is individually about equal to 2 Guardsmen.
It would also be horrific efficiency for using strategems.
So no, this is not a solution, to anything.
Proper handling of orders with levels of officers is a great idea though, I would love to see that.
IMO Individual squads of Guardsman absolutely need to be useful. 10 Guardsman disembarking from a Chimera and unloading should feel like a useful contribution to the battlefield. These are highly trained and professional soldiers. It's ridiculous when I see players not even bothering to shoot their lasguns because the damage is so pitiful it's not worth picking up the dice.
But I don't know how to solve that. They have really fethed up the scaling of 40k now that marines are 2 wounds.
Despite the fact that I helped derail this tactics thread.....
Not for super competitive meta's, what do people think about putting a HWT in a command squad. I was thinking of putting a platoon commander with a HW squad in the back (for Take Aim or Bring it Down) and was thinking adding a command squad for an extra HWT at BS 3 and to help prevent the officer from getting plinked easily. My thought are HB's or Lascannon's (ya, I know what people think about Lascannon's but rule of cool is in play here for my models). Do people think there is any viability in doing such? Any of the Heavy weapon options better (excluding mortars)
kirotheavenger wrote: Individual units of two guardsman would just be plain obnoxious to play.
Like I said, this wouldn't be something you just copy/paste over.
The Special Weapon list needs to be overhauled, heavily, for Guard anyways. Some of that stuff should be reworked to a "Veteran Issued Kit"(Plasma, Melta, Sniper Rifles) and could also be lore-wise introduced as Junior Officer/Sergeant options. Special Weapons should be things like Grenade Launcher, Flamer, Heavy Stubber, and something along the lines of the "Treadfethers" from Gaunt's Ghosts lore(semi-disposable anti-tank launchers that could be operated by one soldier who gets fed rockets rather than the full on Missile Launcher that HWTs have).
Ideally, Special Weapon Squads would be broken up into Special Weapons Teams. A sniper+spotter, stubber operator+ammo goon, etc. More mobile versions of a HWT than just being "individual units of two guardsmen".
Your opponent would have to be constantly split firing attacks, that takes ages to resolve.
You'd have to be moving and firing your teams individually, that takes ages to resolve.
Not any more annoying or obnoxious than 50 model blob squads with a bunch of random special weapons and HWTs in them were or the dumpsterfire that is the Skitarii weapon options now because of Kill Team compatibility.
"But Tau drones do it too". Yeah, and they're universally hated it for it. Thats despite the fact that 1 drone is individually about equal to 2 Guardsmen.
Tau drones do something wildly different. They detach from their parent unit and their biggest "hate" on from people has to do with their ability to intercept wounds.
It would also be horrific efficiency for using strategems.
So what? Stratagem efficiency is not and should never be a deciding factor for gameplay. Also worth mentioning that there's nothing stopping, say, a specific level of Officer improving stratagem efficiency around them.
So no, this is not a solution, to anything.
Far more of a solution than "let's just keep everything as it is". 40k is amusingly enough becoming a reflection of the lore, with stagnation being the word of the day when it comes to a lot of these factions.
But I don't know how to solve that. They have really fethed up the scaling of 40k now that marines are 2 wounds.
The 2W Marines isn't the issue.
The issue is and continues to be that Guardsmen aren't scaled properly. Somehow they're supposed to be the "baseline" while also being "less than" everyone else.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salted Diamond wrote: Despite the fact that I helped derail this tactics thread.....
Not for super competitive meta's, what do people think about putting a HWT in a command squad. I was thinking of putting a platoon commander with a HW squad in the back (for Take Aim or Bring it Down) and was thinking adding a command squad for an extra HWT at BS 3 and to help prevent the officer from getting plinked easily. My thought are HB's or Lascannon's (ya, I know what people think about Lascannon's but rule of cool is in play here for my models). Do people think there is any viability in doing such? Any of the Heavy weapon options better (excluding mortars)
It's a waste of an Elite slot taking the Command Squad if you're just going to corner camp.
I've been over this heavily before, but here goes:
-Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.
That's never going to happen. So if I take 12 infantry squads, each with a single heavy weapon team. That's now 24 separate units.
Then if I take another 3 heavy weapon squads. Those 3 units now split into 9 separate units.
That's 33 units for both you and your opponent to keep track of. That's not including any other choices, which would easily push this over minimum 40 units, potentially even 50.
And you don't want platoons because they're too complicated?
I've been over this heavily before, but here goes: -Heavy Weapons Teams, if continued to be available to Infantry Squads, get deployed and count as separate to the unit after deployment.
That's never going to happen. So if I take 12 infantry squads, each with a single heavy weapon team. That's now 24 separate units.
And if HWTs are priced appropriately for having + to cover, Look Out Sir equivalent, and a downside in the form of their Heavy Weapons becoming Move OR Fire(no both!) etc...you're looking at halving those numbers because of points going up. Possibly more if implementing a Heavy, Light, and Mid styled Infantry Squad with each one having a different pool of things to draw from(LIS having 0 HWTs but getting 3x Veteran Issued Weapons+1 Special, Heavy getting 3x VIWs but 0 specials and their own unique Heavy Weapon choices for example) because again points would be a thing.
Then if I take another 3 heavy weapon squads. Those 3 units now split into 9 separate units.
Yes, that's a thing that can happen. It's not really a huge deal.
That's 33 units for both you and your opponent to keep track of. That's not including any other choices, which would easily push this over minimum 40 units, potentially even 50.
And you don't want platoons?
People say they want horde Guard, but apparently that just means "big numbers in squads"...heavens forbid someone make a suggestion that doesn't reflect that!
I get that these changes sound pants on head crazy. I legit thought I was being nuts messing around with them initially. But playing around with it over covid has shown me that yeah, it can work...but the points values have to be right and holy hell are you going to have to actually rejig basically everything because you'd need to rework Infantry Squads into 3 separate units each with their own dynamic(Lights being the cover boosted units, lacking in Heavy Weapon Teams but gaining a more 'veteran' flavor to them with some forward deployment rules and access to more veteran issued weapons while Heavy Infantry Squads lack Heavy Weapon Teams but instead get guys toting around belt-fed heavy stubbers, hellguns as standard, and again being more 'veteran' focused while MIS are a balance of 1x VIW, 1x Special, and 1x HWT) while also keeping Conscripts as a viable option(which, btw, is to make them similar to Lights but no HWTs or VIWs and give them an increased squad size as base with a rule allowing for Commissars as 'free' HQ options similar to Runtherds+Gretchins). The bonus to that approach? It opens up some new avenues for Regimental Traits. Imagine Catachans getting a 'superbonus' to their LIS while their HIS and MIS just get a 'regular' bonus, for an example.
The problem is that it requires a genuine willpower to see it happen and the 40k design team doesn't seem to have that because god forbid they rock the boat and make it so that players can't use everything they already own with ease. Guard are just going to continue to limp around in a design space where they're a lesser version of GSC, Tau, and Skitarii for the immediate future unless it happens and we'll all just keep arguing around about crap like this.
I have never thought the guard should be a horde. hats Nids, cultists, Orks, all races that outnumber them int he fluff. The guard horde is the fact their commanders treat their lives as ammunition, so more send in the next wave (next game) than lots of bodies on the table.
There are plenty of suggestions on how to rework the Guard, I have stuck loads up.
Mine boil down to simplification and professionalisation, mixed in with more character for regiments.
For example - Guard squads should get free Vox's and basic special weapons (flamers, snipers, Grenade launchers and I would add heavy stubbers to that list if I could), paying only for plasma and melta or heavy weapons. They aren't hive trash, but drilled, trained soldiers supplied by the galaxies biggest logistics operation. Cultists in uniforms they are not.
The rules should be simplified and speeded up. For example Vox becomes unlimited range (less than a lasgun is silly), First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire means your shots hit automatically rather than doubling the amount of 4+ dice you roll, re-roll ones to wound becomes +1 to wound roll, medi-kits cost go up if necessary but automatically work rather than on a 4+, etc. etc.
And greater characterisation of the signature regiments. For for example Steel Legion don't have Vox's in infantry squads, but do count as having a vox if they are inside or within 2" of a Chimera. And instead of issuing orders to infantry that turn, an officer can issue one tank order to a Chimera.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and of course there is a horde of stuff that can get a rework. For example I would merge command squads with the platoon commander. But to keep the visual spectacle if it includes a Standard the unit counts as a character. More flags!
Just having them as glorified special weapons teams is basically a shame.
As others have said there is lots that can be done to have a really thematic, fun and faster to play army. GW doesn't do games though, they do models. Well except the guard. They mostly sell old models.
MinMax wrote: I think it's pretty safe to assume Vox Casters will work as the Data Tethers do in Adeptus Mechanicus. A la:
"Select one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY unit within 6" of this model or one friendly <REGIMENT> INFANTRY VOX CASTER unit anywhere on the battlefield"
Back in 4th before orders, that's how vox worked. Unlimited range on the leadership bubble of the officer if both had a vox (even if the officer was in reserve)
For Leman Russ Demolishers (I'm running 2) are sponson Heavy Bolters worth it or are they best just naked (only hull HB). My punisher is running with them, but curious if they are warranted on the Demolishes.
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.
I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.
Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.
If anything's happening, I'm expecting Russes to get broken into "Siege", "Ambushers", and "Support" tanks or something.
Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.
Why?
Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?
The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.
The platoon structure is very important because it would completely rebalance the internal balance of the codex's infantry options.
For the unaware, old platoon worked as a single troops selection. Think detachment in a detachment, of the following
1. Platoons were deployed as one unit. In the age of alternative deployment, platoon deployment would speed up the game a lot.
2. Conscripts have been nerfed multiple times because before they were just better infantry squads. Tie them to platoons again, and you can make conscripts useful again witthout invalidating infantry squads, since the IS have to be bought alongside the conscripts in a platoon
3. This also extends to veteran squads. As is, special weapon squads and command squads make them pointless, since the latter can be taken by themselves. Implement platoons, and now SWS and CCS are tied to infantry squads for the most part again. Now vets have a purpose as cheap special weapon delivery troops that are cheaper than stormtroopers and platoons. Then you could even return them to being troops, as they should be.
4. Heavy weapon squads can actually be taken in decent numbers again. Many IG platoon orgs show more heavy weapons in a single platoon than you can currently take in a 2000pt game. Plus tying them to infantry squads again ensures a tax, preventing them from being cheaply spammed in an OP way. Same ligic as the conscript and SWS examples above.
Platoons are not about just making efficient use of the force org chart. They were critical to the IG codex's internal balance, as shown by the fact that infantry units have been all over the place since we lost the platoon in 8th. You cannot just take these units that were meant to be taken in platoons, throw them into the main force org, and expect things to not be messed up. Bringing back platoons is the only way to fix all the wonky internal balance when it comes to IG infantry units.
After playing my 1st game of 9th Edition with my IG, I have several thoughts:
The first is that I really hate the bookkeeping to track scoring, but I like the extra activity on the board to get those points.
The second is that melta weapons seem to be a better option than plasma weapons in my first game. Terrain limited firing ranges and most MEQ are 3+ armor with multiple wounds. I often found my squads firing at ranges under 12 inches and my opponent excelled at rolling 6s for saving throws.
I may swap my vanilla LRBTs for Demolishers. The extra strength and AP looks good and I rarely fired more than 24 inches. Too much obscuring terrain.
I like meltas when you have a single weapon and thats it. An infantry squad for example. It lets them hit far above their weight without needing orders or abilities.
Plasma shines en masse taken on multiple models in a squad. Your SWS, CCS, stormtroopers, etc. That way you can stack bonuses and make them shine
Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.
Hey folks, quick question here: on battlescribe it lists the vulcan mega-bolter as both a heavy 16 and a heavy 20... which is it?
It's both. A Macharius has a heavy 16 vulcan mega-bolter, and a Stormlord has a heavy 20 vulcan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salted Diamond wrote: For Leman Russ Demolishers (I'm running 2) are sponson Heavy Bolters worth it or are they best just naked (only hull HB). My punisher is running with them, but curious if they are warranted on the Demolishes.
Sponsons are great as point fillers if you don't have the models. If you do have the models, always take more. That's my rule of thumb for Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravajaxe wrote: Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.
I wouldn't bother with heavy weapon team lascannons or missile launchers ATM. A lascannon on a tank commander or valkyrie is fine, because they have abilities to hit on 3+ and at least have some durability.
Ravajaxe wrote: Isn't the single melta gun in a line infantry squad too much of a gamble ? You may often have one turn of use of it. I'm currently thinking of taking strong heavy weapons in infantry squads (laser cannons or missile launchers), and put all my meltas in a command squad (mechanized or outflanking). But I lack 9th edition practice ATM.
It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires strategem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.
It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires stratagem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.
7 point? A Guardsmen is 5.5 points and a melta gun is 5, that's minimum 10.5 points.
It is a cheap 7 point gamble in 9th Edition. I have 7 infantry squads so 7 melta guns. Cadians reroll 1s if the firing unit is stationary and infantry reroll all misses if a Take Aim order is given, so the melta guns will hit every once in a while. The Relic of Lost Cadia and the Overlapping Fires stratagem also help to increase the regularity of melta hits. Quantity helps too.
7 point? A Guardsmen is 5.5 points and a melta gun is 5, that's minimum 10.5 points.
I should have said it was a 5 point gamble. Melta guns are dirt cheap in infantry squads now. The 5.5 for the guardsman is a sunk cost because I would run the 7 squads anyway.
I have 25 points left a list, would adding a 3rd platoon commander for the extra order be a good place to spend it? I'm running around 90 infanty. My other though, mainly due to modeling reasons as I'm using the Roland turrets from Blood and Skulls would be heavy stubbers for my tanks.
I have 25 points left a list, would adding a 3rd platoon commander for the extra order be a good place to spend it? I'm running around 90 infanty. My other though, mainly due to modeling reasons as I'm using the Roland turrets from Blood and Skulls would be heavy stubbers for my tanks.
What's the rest of your list? How many orders do you have already? I normally try to have 1 order for every 2 or 3 infantry squads (depending on how many infantry I have).
Platoon Commanders are always a good choice, but if you already have 5 or 6 orders already you don't really need more.
Well folks I just ran my first tank-heavy AM army in 9th. (1k points, 2 Tank Commanders, 1 demolisher, a few transports with minimum infantry support. I came here for tanks @#$% it!)
My opponent was running a fairly balanced ork list, and I honestly did better than I thought I would. I still ended up getting tabled, and losing in VP by a truely laughable amount (I think he was more than 30 points up by games end).
In terms of sheer killing power though: all he had left at the end was one buggy, a warboss, and a single solitary boy camping on an objective. Had I made my last few saves at the end I might have even pulled off a last minute win (at least in terms of kills).
I also got too dang aggressive at the beginning, trying to get to objectives instead of thinning the ranks a bit. Honestly, I'd like to try again as I think there is real potential in my russ setup of demolisher cannons, three heavy flamers, and a storm bolter.
The three flamers really sell the thing as they make charges scary for the opponent, give you something to shoot when you DO get into CC, and give you something that doesn't rely on a degrading BS.
Of course, if he had a dedicated AT crew I would have probably lost even more... but it was still a great game, and really makes me excited for the new codex when it finally hits (hopefully december! Fingers crossed!)
What you display is not so new and has been nicknamed the" fireball Leman Russ". It had been scarcely found in IG lists, with some success, beginning of 8th edition. Not so much since then. But some factors might bring it back into action. First, the fireball Leman Russ can still be somewhat usable when in degraded profile, and we know how this can happen quickly with 9th edition level of lethality (especially for vehicles). Secondly, there is the increase of range of flamers, from 9" to 12", which is crucial. And means less units can deep strike out of overwatch range, then charge your fireball LRBT without fear. Then, due to the drastic decrease of overwatch possibilities in 9th, the abilities that shut down overwatch are of much less use, so are seldomly taken. They were a strong deterrent for bringing fireball Leman Russes. Now, meaning if you have a unit with a strong overwatch, it has more opportunities to get usable. Another factor, specifically since 9th edition rules dropped : the heavy flamers can now be used in engagement range, after an enemy managed to charge or consolidate into your LRBT. Punishing them for having touched the tank without finishing him off. Impossible before. To finish the list, a key factor, are the more obscured lines of sight (LOS blocking ruins) and smaller tables. These make the average engagement ranges shorter, so that a very short range weapon is not so much a liability as before.
On the other hand, there is a negative factor I can think of, which is the need to keep this CP available fort the fire overwatch stratagem. Keep that in mind !
All these combined made me reconsider my decision to shelve the fireball configuration. I will soon bring a pair of fireball Leman Russ demolishers in a 2*1000 doubles tournament. These are not tank commanders, but since the heavy flamer does not use the BS, I don't mind. This makes me save 2*35 points for not bringing tank commanders over regular LRBT's. Apart from that, I will field one full payload manticore in the list. I will come back with a report of how I fared in this tournament, soon.
leerm02 wrote: Please do! We also do 1000pt doubles games a lot in my store, so I am quite curious to see how you fare!
I also like the term: Fireball Leman Russ :-)
Sure !
I just made a topic in army lists section. I will make reports in there.
This will be my first tournament since covid-19 disrupted the tournament scene. Any help is greatly appreciated.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/800795.page
Carnodon with twin lascanon and 2 heavy flamers (120pts)
+Cheap(ish)
+Anti-armor AND anti-infantry
+seems great for advancing into enemy territory and making a nuisance before dying
-it's not a Leman Russ
-it has bs 4+
-it definitely WILL die, and probably not take too long about it either.
-can't be taken in squads (which means using up your HS slots quickly)
For 25 more points you can put a Manticore out of LoS to dish out even more damage up to 4 rounds per game.
TBH, the twin Lascannon is not that great, especially at BS 4. It's only two shots that deal an average of 3-4 damage per hit (with my luck, that's 1-3 average).
Manticore with the Full Payload Tank Ace trait can fire 2d6 shots (still BS4) and, should the opponent fail their save, deals a flat 3 damage per failed save.
If you want more direct fire that deals the same amount of damage per shot, look to the Leman Russ Demolisher. It will die, fast, but the two shots it does (thanks to Grinding Advance) gives 5-7 attacks on average (3-4 hits) with 1 higher strength and still maintains the same D6 damage.
EDIT: I do want to say, I appreciate your looking into other options, but right now our options for effective firepower are limited as our vehicles, well most vehicles in general, are super fragile this edition, so anything not outside of Line-of-sight is dead instantly.
Most I've been able to do is 2 Manticores, a Basilisk (spending 2cp per turn for rerolls), a Master of Ordinance, 1 Tank Commander with Demolisher Cannon (knowing it will die first turn), and Harker for re-rolling 1s and praying that'll be enough to kill anything that can efficiently take out my hordes of infantry. (Hint: it typically isn't).
Edit Edit: Before someone jumps me on complaining, I'm not saying we can't win matches, it's just a lot harder for us. You have to bring your A-game in terms of deployment, positioning, target priority, etc. And choose your Secondaries wisely. There will not be a game where you'll have more on the board than your opponent, but if you score enough points, that won't matter.
No I think all IG players are in agreement that we're in a rough spot in 9th. We can bring some strong, cost efficient firepower, but we cant take objectives to capitalize on it. Which leads to games where you kill 90% of the enemy army but lose by 30pts.
Stormtroopers, manticores, and demolishers are all stupid efficient for their cost. The problem is we just dont have a fast, efficient scoring unit to capitalize on it that doesnt die to a stiff breeze. Plus we bleed so many secondaries that if you dont just completely annhilate an opponent in the first couple of turns youll never catchup.
That could be due to design more than anything. Guard have always been about the quantity rather than the quality. Meaning as the editions rolled on and secondaries became a thing/were stolen from ITC, factions that took a lot of any given type of unit took a bit of a hit.
Not sure how it could be fixed, outside of perhaps bringing back the old platoon system and forcing the enemy to kill all of a platoon to count as killing a single unit. But that's a bit clunky no?
One small saving grace for the Carnodon might be: Should GW decide to correct the price for its multilasers (currently they cost 15 points a piece, while they cost 5 on every other platform that takes multilasers), it would drop to 70 points for the quad multilaser option.
70 points for 12 T7 3+ wounds doesn't sound that bad. Even if it's just for standing in the way... Then again, a Chimera would be even cheaper.
MrMoustaffa wrote: No I think all IG players are in agreement that we're in a rough spot in 9th. We can bring some strong, cost efficient firepower, but we cant take objectives to capitalize on it. Which leads to games where you kill 90% of the enemy army but lose by 30pts.
Stormtroopers, manticores, and demolishers are all stupid efficient for their cost. The problem is we just dont have a fast, efficient scoring unit to capitalize on it that doesnt die to a stiff breeze. Plus we bleed so many secondaries that if you dont just completely annhilate an opponent in the first couple of turns youll never catchup.
Yeah, I went the other direction. 10 Infantry Squads, 3 Scout Sentinels, and 5 Scion Squads (3 Regular, 2 Command). Get objectives quickly, hold ground, and then win on points.
I'm currently 2-2 with 4 games, ranging from non-competitive to semi-competitive lists. Both losses could have gone better if I had deployed or moved better.
I do miss having good firepower, but I have to trade redundancy and durability of obsec troops in order to get it.
Has anyone tried using the Macharius Vanquisher in 9th? I know that super-heavies are sorta crap right now... but that twin cannon with it's built in +1 to hit is spicy... Probably not that competitive, but I have to say I dig the idea of a flat 9 damage!
Disclaimer: I haven't tried it in practice. But mathematically that flat 9 damage is... problematic. While calculating the average damage it doesn't look bad in comparison with Battlecannons etc., it's performance drops significantly when it fires on targets that don't have 9,18 or 27 wounds.
A full hit on a Chimera doesn't kill it, two hits are severy overkill. A double hit on a troup of Sentinels, while mathematically doing 18 damage only kills two for 10 damage etc.
I recently surfed around a bit on Forgeworld looking for tanks and had an eye on the Crassus/Praetor that (for my taste) look pretty interesting. I'm so far just collecting, so in the end the decision will be rule of cool, but out of interest:
1. the Praetors seems to have as it's special thing that it can switch each round between its missile types and that the Firestorm Missiles ignore cover. Can anybody with practical experience tell me if this ever comes up? Has anybody used it and found it at least somewhat practical to ignore cover? And also how problematic is the minimum 12'' range on the board?
2. regarding the crassus: It costs almost as much as 3 Chimeras for roughly 3 x the transport capacity, so seems to me kind of a sidegrade (if it wouldn' also occupy a superheavy slot). Again: can someone with practical experience give me some pointers in which situations this can come in handy? I assume one praetor with 35 guys inside has a smaller footprint than 3 Chimeras, but am unsure if that is "worth something"
Pyroalchi wrote: One small saving grace for the Carnodon might be: Should GW decide to correct the price for its multilasers (currently they cost 15 points a piece, while they cost 5 on every other platform that takes multilasers), it would drop to 70 points for the quad multilaser option.
70 points for 12 T7 3+ wounds doesn't sound that bad. Even if it's just for standing in the way... Then again, a Chimera would be even cheaper.
If it was 70 points it would ironically be one of the best vehicles we have. Same cost as 2 sentinels, same amount of wounds, double the firepower, better movement, better toughness, etc.
But the firepower would still be multilasers that do very little. And occupying a heavy support slot I don't really see it as that powerful even at the (in my opinion correct) 70 point price tag.
I'm gonna go on the record right now as saying that in the new codex they are going to change multilasers in some significant way. Maybe super cheap, maybe a buff in killing power, I don't know... but I bet they are going to do something significant with them.
The trend seems to be: change things that people mostly ignore. I mostly ignore multilasers...
Pyroalchi wrote: Lets put it that way: buff them to heavy 4-6 and they become interesting against Orks.
I think making them Heavy 4 would be a great way to buff multilasers. It would make them a competative option for chimera and sentinels without IMO making them need a points increase. I run 3 multilaser sentinels in my Tallarn army anyway so I would love it.
How do you guys interpret the Eradicator Nova Cannon Rule
Blast. Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover
One reading could be that the cannon simply ignores cover.
Another reading might be that once a unit is attacked with this cannon, it no longer gains cover period. The latter would be quite interesting as it would make life easier for other lower AP weapons to hit the target unit.
RegularGuy wrote: How do you guys interpret the Eradicator Nova Cannon Rule
Blast. Units attacked by this weapon do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover
One reading could be that the cannon simply ignores cover.
Another reading might be that once a unit is attacked with this cannon, it no longer gains cover period. The latter would be quite interesting as it would make life easier for other lower AP weapons to hit the target unit.
Anyone know any authoritative interpretation?
It does not benefit other weapons of the Leman Russ or other units. Pretending it could apply to other weapons than eradicator nova cannon would be disingenuous. Special rules applying to shooting / melee attacks always assumes that they apply to the weapon that makes them.
However, the removal of bonus to saving throws does negates special rules that grant additional save bonus for being in cover. An example is the Ork kommandos, who will lose the +1 for cover, and their +2 from their "Sneaky Gitz" special rule.
Well I regret if it sounds like there is any desire to pretend falsely about rules or that there is any intent to be disingenuous.
Elsewhere I've read the Catachan Strategem "Burn them out" causes a unit hit by it to lose cover for the rest of the phase. I was merely wondering if the wording here suggested a similar mechanic.
Please do not assume ill intent. I merely seek clarification.
I think it's an interesting take on the cannon though, and potentially a cool way for it to go in the next codex. Personally: I still think it would need a little something extra for me to take it over a demolisher though.
RegularGuy wrote: Well I regret if it sounds like there is any desire to pretend falsely about rules or that there is any intent to be disingenuous.
Elsewhere I've read the Catachan Strategem "Burn them out" causes a unit hit by it to lose cover for the rest of the phase. I was merely wondering if the wording here suggested a similar mechanic.
Please do not assume ill intent. I merely seek clarification.
The Catachan ruling is wrong. It only removes cover on flamer and heavy flamer weapons in that unit.
Pyroalchi wrote: Lets put it that way: buff them to heavy 4-6 and they become interesting against Orks.
I think making them Heavy 4 would be a great way to buff multilasers. It would make them a competative option for chimera and sentinels without IMO making them need a points increase. I run 3 multilaser sentinels in my Tallarn army anyway so I would love it.
But why? It's a lascannon adjusted for lower energy rapid fire, why should it be more suited for firing into CC than a lascannon?
What might be interesting (in my opinion) would be a range dependent profile simulatingsome kind of spread of the lasbolts. Something like 12" heavy 6, 24" heavy 4, 36" heavy 3. Who knows. I would definitly like the Multilaser to be more than just "the cheapest option"
The multilaser isn't a shotgun--there isn't really a "spread".
The reason why, IMO, we should consider the Multilaser for a Pistol role or something like that? It's a weapon that commonly gets described as being more akin to a defensive armament. A large part of the bulk is the cooling setup and the power generation.
Kanluwen wrote: The multilaser isn't a shotgun--there isn't really a "spread".
The reason why, IMO, we should consider the Multilaser for a Pistol role or something like that? It's a weapon that commonly gets described as being more akin to a defensive armament. A large part of the bulk is the cooling setup and the power generation.
What's pistol even do on a vehicle? Vehicles can already shoot into close combat. You'd be better off making it assault.
The multi-laser is among the few Astra Militarum weapons that is specific to our faction. Meaning it is one of the few candidates for a profile rework, that would not cause an inter-codex inconsistency.
Apart from that, maybe there is scion's hot-shot volley gun, but the other ones are also vehicle weapons.
Currently the multi-laser has a firepower equivalent to about six infantry's laser guns (at long range). This is quite weak. I would like to see a rework, but I have little hope it will be the case.
Kanluwen wrote: The multilaser isn't a shotgun--there isn't really a "spread".
The reason why, IMO, we should consider the Multilaser for a Pistol role or something like that? It's a weapon that commonly gets described as being more akin to a defensive armament. A large part of the bulk is the cooling setup and the power generation.
What's pistol even do on a vehicle? Vehicles can already shoot into close combat. You'd be better off making it assault.
Do whatever, just make it clear that it's a primarily defensive piece of kit that while having a high ROF isn't an imprecise brrt brrt gun.
I haven't read that much of novels of imperial guard perspective (only Ciaphas Cains and Gaunts Gosts), but have missed so far that multilasers are defensive weapons. In the Cain novels they are usually described as having quite a punch and being full grown offensive weaponry (even though not with the anti armor punch of Heavy bolters) and the only mention I remember from Gaunts Ghosts was an Artillery regiment with Multilaser Carriages used for laying down fire into advancing infantry.
I also don't remember reading that in the Codex. Where do you have that from, Kanluwen?
I wouldn't mind the multilaser being something like: 2d6 S5 attacks (instead of the 3 strength 6 attacks).
If it goes up to something like heavy 6, I'd also like to add -1 ap as well. Honestly: either 2d6 S5 attacks or Heavy 6, str 6, ap -1, would both be worth taking.
I wouldn't mind the multilaser being something like: 2d6 S5 attacks (instead of the 3 strength 6 attacks).
If it goes up to something like heavy 6, I'd also like to add -1 ap as well. Honestly: either 2d6 S5 attacks or Heavy 6, str 6, ap -1, would both be worth taking.
Yeah, basically up the rate of fire to represent it as a chaff clearing and suppressing type of weapon, versus the heavy bolter which acts as an anti-elite infantry and light vehicle weapon.
I wouldn't mind the multilaser being something like: 2d6 S5 attacks (instead of the 3 strength 6 attacks).
If it goes up to something like heavy 6, I'd also like to add -1 ap as well. Honestly: either 2d6 S5 attacks or Heavy 6, str 6, ap -1, would both be worth taking.
Yeah, basically up the rate of fire to represent it as a chaff clearing and suppressing type of weapon, versus the heavy bolter which acts as an anti-elite infantry and light vehicle weapon.
Pyroalchi wrote:The second profile would basically be an improved heavy bolter (same AP, better S same damage against W2, better against W1 or W3) and a bit much...
I agree that boosting it's RoF would be the best option. Make HB for use vs. anti elite and a Heavy 4-5 multilaser for chaff clearing. Each weapon would have it's uses and IMO make Chimera/Sentinel weapon options have more meaning.
Yeah, hadn't thought of the similarities to the HB. The 2d6 str5 is the superior choice... but with the guard's luck: they will end up making it WORSE somehow instead!
(and btw: Salted Diamond, I had a good chuckle at your signature quote!)
leerm02 wrote: Yeah, hadn't thought of the similarities to the HB. The 2d6 str5 is the superior choice... but with the guard's luck: they will end up making it WORSE somehow instead!
(and btw: Salted Diamond, I had a good chuckle at your signature quote!)
I used to have a 100% FW Elysian army that I got rid of when they squatted them. It was the only way to really play them as you had to be very aggressive with them to be effective. "Go big or go home" was their other motto.
I think the multilaser would be cool if it kept it's stats, but switched to Rapid Fire 3. Would seem like a really decent squad support vehicle that way. Would team up well with the Steel Legion 18" Rapid Fire too.
If you see a change, just be wary cause it might be a cosmetic change. Us orks got t5, but then lost a 5++, got price bumped, and now suffer massive morale.
RegularGuy wrote: Well I regret if it sounds like there is any desire to pretend falsely about rules or that there is any intent to be disingenuous.
Elsewhere I've read the Catachan Strategem "Burn them out" causes a unit hit by it to lose cover for the rest of the phase. I was merely wondering if the wording here suggested a similar mechanic.
Please do not assume ill intent. I merely seek clarification.
The Catachan ruling is wrong. It only removes cover on flamer and heavy flamer weapons in that unit.
Are you sure about the Catachan Order?
"You can re-roll the dice when determining the number of attacks the ordered unit can make with flamers and heavy flamers until the end of the phase. In addition, units targeted by models from the ordered unit with these weapons do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover this phase."
This reads for me as no cover at all this shooting phase.
G'day guys, looking for some clarification and thought I'd come directly to the commissars for it.
Got the new Gaunts Ghosts box, and they have the keyword "Tanith" for the <regiment> keyword (makes sense).
As someone who wants to use them in my regular Cadian army, would the inclusion of this unit remove the ability for everyone else to get the Cadian regiment trait? Would I need to shell out the CP and take them in an aux. support detachment instead? Or would Gaunts Ghosts behave similar to Tempestus Scions in that they don't affect the rest of the regiment but they also don't benefit from the Cadian doctrine.
As far as I understand their rules they would keep your Cadians from benefiting from their doctrin.
One option would be to use them as HQ choice for a detachment including Bullgryns, Ogryns, Commissars, Psykers and all the stuff that doesn't care about regiment anyway.
Pyroalchi wrote: As far as I understand their rules they would keep your Cadians from benefiting from their doctrin.
One option would be to use them as HQ choice for a detachment including Bullgryns, Ogryns, Commissars, Psykers and all the stuff that doesn't care about regiment anyway.
That was my fear, thanks. Might chuck them in a patrol with a bunch of other aux. stuff as you suggested, or in smaller games just sacrifice the CP to take them as an Aux. Supp. Det.
I just realized that you could call your whole regiment Tanith, say that you'll use the Cadian doctrin for your Tanith regiment and be fine. You couldn't include Cadian specific characters though
"You can re-roll the dice when determining the number of attacks the ordered unit can make with flamers and heavy flamers until the end of the phase. In addition, units targeted by models from the ordered unit with these weapons do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover this phase."
You're highlighting the wrong part.
"...units targeted by models from the ordered unit with these weapons (IE: flamers and heavy flamers) do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover this phase."
It only ignores cover for flamers and heavy flamers in the ordered unit. That's it.
Raichase wrote: G'day guys, looking for some clarification and thought I'd come directly to the commissars for it.
Got the new Gaunts Ghosts box, and they have the keyword "Tanith" for the <regiment> keyword (makes sense).
As someone who wants to use them in my regular Cadian army, would the inclusion of this unit remove the ability for everyone else to get the Cadian regiment trait? Would I need to shell out the CP and take them in an aux. support detachment instead? Or would Gaunts Ghosts behave similar to Tempestus Scions in that they don't affect the rest of the regiment but they also don't benefit from the Cadian doctrine.
Thanks in advance!
They also have the keyword OFFICIO PREFECTUS, making them basically Commissars. You can take them in any army without losing regiment rules.
Pyroalchi wrote: I just realized that you could call your whole regiment Tanith, say that you'll use the Cadian doctrin for your Tanith regiment and be fine. You couldn't include Cadian specific characters though
Yeah, that's fair, I was hoping to keep the option to take Pask open though!
necrontyrOG wrote: They also have the keyword OFFICIO PREFECTUS, making them basically Commissars. You can take them in any army without losing regiment rules.
...aaaand problem solved. Thanks for that, I totally missed that!
While I know this thread is more aimed at competitive play...
Plasma or Melta for infantry squads? I'm building a fluffy-not really competitive Tallarn army (stuff like 20 rough riders) but I still want it to be effective enough. I want to have 3-4 of my 8 infantry squads push forward with the rough riders so they can use them Tallarn WL trait to fall back and then charge to get the use of their hunting lances, but I'm not sure if plasma or melta would be better for them.
Ravajaxe wrote: Screw these pay-to-win DLC of a book. I'm not buying this nonsense anymore.
Have you seen the rules already? Do you know for sure that it will be stronger than what you can do currently with Guard? Were the last books pay to win for Belakor armies? For Death Guard?
Plasma or Melta for infantry squads? I'm building a fluffy-not really competitive Tallarn army (stuff like 20 rough riders) but I still want it to be effective enough. I want to have 3-4 of my 8 infantry squads push forward with the rough riders so they can use them Tallarn WL trait to fall back and then charge to get the use of their hunting lances, but I'm not sure if plasma or melta would be better for them.
Per the 3.5 'dex, Plasma for Infantry would probably be fluffier, but there's a TO&E from FW for a Tallarn light infantry company that implies that some squads might carry Meltas (img below if I can get it to work). Have you given the Rough Riders any special weapons? You might be able to fit enough Meltas in there if you split them up right.
@ salted diamond: purely from a theoretical point of view I would say meltas. Plasma would be better against Marines and other W2 models, but your rough riders already bring quite a lot of D2 (or was is Dd3?) damage. Also your infantry dudes would be in optimal Melta range if you plan on pushing them forward, which is nice.
I would keep in mind though, that either way they might not do that much. In the first turn they will likely movemovemove to keep up with the rough riders and don't shoot at all. In the next turn some of them might already be dead or find themselves in CC. So skipping the special weapons and seeing them mainly as bodies to throw forward and use tactically to bind and distract enemies might also be a valid strategy
Plasma or Melta for infantry squads? I'm building a fluffy-not really competitive Tallarn army (stuff like 20 rough riders) but I still want it to be effective enough. I want to have 3-4 of my 8 infantry squads push forward with the rough riders so they can use them Tallarn WL trait to fall back and then charge to get the use of their hunting lances, but I'm not sure if plasma or melta would be better for them.
Per the 3.5 'dex, Plasma for Infantry would probably be fluffier, but there's a TO&E from FW for a Tallarn light infantry company that implies that some squads might carry Meltas (img below if I can get it to work). Have you given the Rough Riders any special weapons? You might be able to fit enough Meltas in there if you split them up right.
Spoiler:
Pyroalchi wrote:@ salted diamond: purely from a theoretical point of view I would say meltas. Plasma would be better against Marines and other W2 models, but your rough riders already bring quite a lot of D2 (or was is Dd3?) damage. Also your infantry dudes would be in optimal Melta range if you plan on pushing them forward, which is nice.
I would keep in mind though, that either way they might not do that much. In the first turn they will likely movemovemove to keep up with the rough riders and don't shoot at all. In the next turn some of them might already be dead or find themselves in CC. So skipping the special weapons and seeing them mainly as bodies to throw forward and use tactically to bind and distract enemies might also be a valid strategy
Fluff and effectiveness are why I've been leaning towards plasma, but being close and raw power is why I've been considering melta (and I have 5 metal melta guns)
Rough riders hunting lances are D3, and I am not planning giving them an special weapons. (pipe dream that they come back into the codex, maybe via DKoK Death riders)
Ravajaxe wrote: Screw these pay-to-win DLC of a book. I'm not buying this nonsense anymore.
Have you seen the rules already? Do you know for sure that it will be stronger than what you can do currently with Guard? Were the last books pay to win for Belakor armies? For Death Guard?
Skitarii Veteran Cohort. Made an already broken army more broken, immediately after they "fixed" them too.
If the rules are solely for Cadians, then it might propel them to the best regiment. Currently they're B tier, okay, but not as good as say Catachans or Custom Regiments.
Typically these books have 3 new WL traits and 3 new Relics. Guard (not including Scions) has really bad WL traits which is why we swap it for another Tank Ace, as well as having average to bad relics.
There will also likely be a page of new stratagems, again, if they're locked to Cadian then we'll probably just see everyone playing Cadian.
My wish was just to see all the old specialist detachments made into new Army of Renown's. That would have been nice.
Well, Cadians now can spend CP to make Conscripts far less garbage. 2 30 man blobs that can take orders seems decent, as does one unit being able to shrug off wound rolls of 1-2 and getting +1 to armor save versus 1 wound weapons. All for just a little CP (though we are a CP hungry army already).
So uh, I don't know if this is the right place to ask about non-tournament play (I usually operate in a different world from most tournament players) but I didn't want to make a new thread and I didn't know where else to post these things.
Anyways, I've started an Armageddon Steel Legion army and played a few games with it, and I wanted to throw down a few tricks I've noticed:
1) Mount Up! is a hilarious order in 9th, especially combined with Laurels of Command. You can keep a unit in combat in the fight phase, throw out "Fix Bayonets" for the free fight, then Laurels-4+ into "Mount up!" to shoot with a pistol and then hop into a nearby Chimera. Then, you can shoot the Chimera's lasgun arrays. Since you didn't Fall Back, no anti-fallback stuff works and you can still shoot the unit in question.
2) With the Vigilus Detachment (since I'm playing Narrative Play), Chimeras are actually pretty good. They're relatively cheap (about the same as a Guard Squad with goodies) and can be used as move-blockers and the like while still shooting into combat. As always, Twin Heavy Flamer Chimeras are a terror, especially with the "Mechanized Fire Support" stratagem,
3) Platoon organization is almost impossible in 9th while staying in a detachment. Command Squads and Platoon Commanders are each separate Elite Choices, so with 3 platoons, a PCS for each, and a CCS, you have 7 Elite Choices (womp womp)... I know a workaround is to bring another detachment, but using the Vigilus stratagem on it just adds +1 CP to an ever mounting cost...
So all the new Cadia rules have been spoiled. Minute12 onwards. Other than the whiteshields upgrade already spoiled, here are some strong highlights:
Relic Battlecannon. Gatekeeper. Flat 3D. Allways gets +1 to wound against chaos.
Strat: Shock Troops: 1Cp to make any Cadian Unit count as remained stationary and an additional -1AP at half range. 2CP for vehicles. Very strong with Cadia's trait and lumbering behemoth rule. It makes Cadian LR's able to move the full 10" and still get re-rolls of 1 to hit and get re-rolls on blast like Catachan/gunnery experts with the Cadian tank order. But the fun doesn't stop there for Cadian Russes ...
Load-Fire-Reload: 1cp. Pick a Cadian Blast Vehicle. 6's now explode. 2 extra hits if the target enemy is a vehicle or monster. Enemy also can't overwatch or set to defend.
Never Give Up Never Surrender: 2CP and make any Cadian Unit objective secured. Vehicles count as 5 models. Already objective secured units count as 2.
My inital take is I see little reason not to play Cadia now. There infantry can be as tough as Wildness Survivors, there Leman Russ's can hit harder than anyones, they move quickly and get objective secured if required on any unit and they can now count any unit as stationary to always get there trait bonus.
Just played a game testing out the new Cadian Whiteshields.
I could have used the new strategems a few times, but refused in order to keep things simple.
1k game versus Daemons (Tzeentch) and got slaughtered. However, this was acceptable for me as I found that Whiteshields will be a perfect back objective holder on their own. If the objective is in cover, then they'll have a 4+ save, going to a 3+ for either "Take Cover" or "Cadia Stands!". Leadership 6 will help against a stray shot or two. Platoon Commander parked nearby will allow them to lightly threaten things that get close.. However, march them forward, however; our infantry is still squishy and I don't see an advantage over 3 fused Infantry Squads for the Malleus Inquisitor with Warding Incantation and Astropath with Psychic Barrier.
EDIT: actually, the latter is CP intensive. I guess now it's a matter of points versus how much you actually want Guardsmen to do. If you need the 15-45 points, then 1-2 CP for Whiteshields isn't a bad plan, but don't expect even lowly Guardsmen levels of firepower/fighting power.
I plan to keep playing Armageddon, but I hope they show up soon. They are the regiment with the most experience fighting Orks, so if they do another Octarius War supplement with the Ork half (Instead of Tyranids) it may, just maybe, include Armageddon.
What is the benefit (if any) of Severian Raine? I love the model, but I can see no real benefit from her rules. Her sword is worse (only AP-1) and her extra ability (auto pass moral aura within 6") only triggering when she's 1" away from enemy means she/they are prob about to die anyway. Is there something I'm missing?
Salted Diamond wrote: What is the benefit (if any) of Severian Raine? I love the model, but I can see no real benefit from her rules. Her sword is worse (only AP-1) and her extra ability (auto pass moral aura within 6") only triggering when she's 1" away from enemy means she/they are prob about to die anyway. Is there something I'm missing?
Salted Diamond wrote: What is the benefit (if any) of Severian Raine? I love the model, but I can see no real benefit from her rules. Her sword is worse (only AP-1) and her extra ability (auto pass moral aura within 6") only triggering when she's 1" away from enemy means she/they are prob about to die anyway. Is there something I'm missing?
Nope. I just use her as a Lord Commissar.
Okay, that's what I've been doing. Just wanted to check in case I'd missed some odd interaction or stratagem that was useful
Bought an ig army and participated in a 1k tourney. Must say that I'm not completely new to ig, used to proxy them from time to time with my orks in fun games since 5th. And like orks, all the ig lists ended up being somewhat more mellee-oriented than usual.
Anyways, here's what I ran:
Straken
Company commander with ap4 relic blade
Demolisher tank commander with -1 damage, hb and hunter killer
Eisenhorn with demonhost
Priest
Master of ordnance - warlord - with kurov's aquila and old grudges trait
6*10 guards (3 sarges with power swords)
Manticore with hunter killer and full payload.
I'll post a batrep of the most interesting game - the first one - vs a skilled opponent who often takes part in large tourneys as 1k sons.
He was running a demon prince, infernal master, 5 rubrics, 10 cultists, 10 scarabs and a relic contemptor.
He went first and killed around 40 guards, moved rubrics up one flank and cultists up the other, dp rushed forward but got stuck in the last couple guards, not able to consolidate towards a tank. While scarabs and contemptor stayed in cover. He was clearly expecting me to focus on scarabs as I called them out with old grudges.
In return guards ran around with what little was left to deny his scoring on the flanks behind Los from scarabs and dread. Manticore killed rubrics, demolisher didn't do much as his invuls were hot, however Eisenhorn's magic and character mellee killed a demon prince.
Demon prince resurrected and killed Eisenhorn and Straken, also, thanks to -1 damage, remained standing with 1 wound after the valor's edge attacks. He finished off all but 6 guards behind blos and occupied the central objective.
Company commander fell back towards the cultists that were hiding behind blos, demolisher finished the dp off and rolled towards scarabs together with a lonely Eisenhorn-less demonhost. Manticore decided to avenge cadia and blew the cultists off the objective. Leman Russ and demonhost charged scarabs and dread tying them up for a turn.
Next turn he finished the demonhost and tank off but couldn't do much else other than move his infernal master, that had been buffing scarabs and casting stuff all game, inside a ruin close to an objective.
Guards moved behind blos with what little was left and scored. Manticore killed an infernal master.
The game ended with ig scratching off a minor 12-8 victory. Even after such a rough start.
The rest of the games:
Chaos knights - 16-4 ig victory, once again, focused on small knights and outscored with a couple guards left.
Dark angels - 20-0 ig victory, leman Russ managed to survive vs plasma and than Marines just got outscored and outgunned.
koooaei wrote: Bought an ig army and participated in a 1k tourney. Must say that I'm not completely new to ig, used to proxy them from time to time with my orks in fun games since 5th. And like orks, all the ig lists ended up being somewhat more mellee-oriented than usual.
Anyways, here's what I ran:
Straken
Company commander with ap4 relic blade
Demolisher tank commander with -1 damage, hb and hunter killer
Eisenhorn with demonhost
Priest
Master of ordnance - warlord - with kurov's aquila and old grudges trait
6*10 guards (3 sarges with power swords)
Manticore with hunter killer and full payload.
I'll post a batrep of the most interesting game - the first one - vs a skilled opponent who often takes part in large tourneys as 1k sons.
He was running a demon prince, infernal master, 5 rubrics, 10 cultists, 10 scarabs and a relic contemptor.
He went first and killed around 40 guards, moved rubrics up one flank and cultists up the other, dp rushed forward but got stuck in the last couple guards, not able to consolidate towards a tank. While scarabs and contemptor stayed in cover. He was clearly expecting me to focus on scarabs as I called them out with old grudges.
In return guards ran around with what little was left to deny his scoring on the flanks behind Los from scarabs and dread. Manticore killed rubrics, demolisher didn't do much as his invuls were hot, however Eisenhorn's magic and character mellee killed a demon prince.
Demon prince resurrected and killed Eisenhorn and Straken, also, thanks to -1 damage, remained standing with 1 wound after the valor's edge attacks. He finished off all but 6 guards behind blos and occupied the central objective.
Company commander fell back towards the cultists that were hiding behind blos, demolisher finished the dp off and rolled towards scarabs together with a lonely Eisenhorn-less demonhost. Manticore decided to avenge cadia and blew the cultists off the objective. Leman Russ and demonhost charged scarabs and dread tying them up for a turn.
Next turn he finished the demonhost and tank off but couldn't do much else other than move his infernal master, that had been buffing scarabs and casting stuff all game, inside a ruin close to an objective.
Guards moved behind blos with what little was left and scored. Manticore killed an infernal master.
The game ended with ig scratching off a minor 12-8 victory. Even after such a rough start.
The rest of the games:
Chaos knights - 16-4 ig victory, once again, focused on small knights and outscored with a couple guards left.
Dark angels - 20-0 ig victory, leman Russ managed to survive vs plasma and than Marines just got outscored and outgunned.
I think you have a Tank Ace/Warlord Trait too much in your list. If I am not mistaken, you can only have two. You have full payload, old grudges and Master Mechanic
Yeah Im not aware of a way to run 3. One uses your warlord trait slit, another uses a strat. The best you can really do is two tank aces and a stormtrooper commander with a WLT in my experience.
Anyone given the new cadian stuff a shot? Im going to give it a shot after I get done with a local tourney this weekend. Might be something there. If nothing else having a hammer of sunderance again alongside two full payload manticores will be nice. Im thinking that, plus some conscripts, demolishers, a commander or two, stormtroopers, and maybe bullgryn could work.
The platoon commander with the new strat battlefield promotion has some cool potential too with clever play. Lets you take something likely to draw fire as your warlord, then when it dies reflexively choose a wlt that could be very useful mid game, like old grudges. For a 25pt model that can hold a relic like the RoLC, thats not too shabby. I hate offering up so many assassination points but I guess at least here you get some bonus from characters dying.
Not really Tactics related but the New Zealand page for Steel Legion squads(which are listed as preorders!) says this:
Important Note: In a similar fashion as our Made to Order program, if you order this box during the two-week Last Chance to Buy period – ending at 08:00AM (GMT) on the 8th of November, 2021 – we'll guarantee there are enough to fulfil all orders. This kit has a shipping delay of 35 days.
Yeah, a "last chance to buy" for the steel legion. This is sad to see such a characterful regiment go away, but at least they give the owners of said regiment a chance to complete their platoons.
Steel Legion became recently a more efficient way to fullfill infantry ranks (money wise) compare to Cadians, due to the raised price of "new" cadian kit. This felt weird.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can not give Pask the new relic Gatekeeper. pg 138 states "Named characters such as Creed already have one or more artifacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics." I don't know the wording from the new supplement but I'm assuming there is nothing to override this and allow Pask to take it.
With this, would a regular Tank commander with Gaterkeeper be more useful then Pask with any other cannon?
*edit* Would it be an option to take an extra relic in Kurov's Aquila as Cadian's will be rather CP hungry?
Salted Diamond wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can not give Pask the new relic Gatekeeper. pg 138 states "Named characters such as Creed already have one or more artifacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics." I don't know the wording from the new supplement but I'm assuming there is nothing to override this and allow Pask to take it.
With this, would a regular Tank commander with Gaterkeeper be more useful then Pask with any other cannon?
*edit* Would it be an option to take an extra relic in Kurov's Aquila as Cadian's will be rather CP hungry?
Yeah characters can never take relics. I would think a standard tank commander with the relic cannon is better than Pask. Ive not used this new one, but the hammer of sunderance, the old one, was amazing and an auto take for IG. This thing plus two full payload manticores will ruin a lot of lists day.
As for Kurov's aquilla, its all down to if ypour opponent uses strats. If youre only taking one extra relic itll probably pay for itself, but if its your third relic, aka 2 cp, I wouldnt bother. Given the amount of order boosting and offensive relics we have now, I would prioritize relic of lost Cadia and maybe the new one that lowers the cost of certain strats the first time you use them over Kurov personally.
*edit* Would it be an option to take an extra relic in Kurov's Aquila as Cadian's will be rather CP hungry?
As for Kurov's aquilla, its all down to if ypour opponent uses strats. If youre only taking one extra relic itll probably pay for itself, but if its your third relic, aka 2 cp, I wouldnt bother. Given the amount of order boosting and offensive relics we have now, I would prioritize relic of lost Cadia and maybe the new one that lowers the cost of certain strats the first time you use them over Kurov personally.
The games seems to be more about strats nowadays so on paper is looks like a good option as it's everytime not once per turn or anything. So a 33% chance for a CP everytime your opponent uses a strat seems like it might be worth it.
What do you think? Do you think Rolc is worth the extra CPs? Also with gifted commander instead of another full payload basilisk (I dont own manticores).
What do you think? Do you think Rolc is worth the extra CPs? Also with gifted commander instead of another full payload basilisk (I dont own manticores).
Been in your boat before in terms of not owning manticores. I'd recommend tracking one down on eBay, as they're very, very worth it, but try to not spend more than what you'd spend going through GW.
Without that fire-twice vigilus stratagem, I'm no longer a fan of the Basalisk. Even a standard Leman Russ tends to do better imo.
*edit* Would it be an option to take an extra relic in Kurov's Aquila as Cadian's will be rather CP hungry?
As for Kurov's aquilla, its all down to if ypour opponent uses strats. If youre only taking one extra relic itll probably pay for itself, but if its your third relic, aka 2 cp, I wouldnt bother. Given the amount of order boosting and offensive relics we have now, I would prioritize relic of lost Cadia and maybe the new one that lowers the cost of certain strats the first time you use them over Kurov personally.
The games seems to be more about strats nowadays so on paper is looks like a good option as it's everytime not once per turn or anything. So a 33% chance for a CP everytime your opponent uses a strat seems like it might be worth it.
Well it's still 1 per battleround but yea basically fairly easy 3-4 cp per game with 5 not unreasonable
To correct : Voice of command ability now gives the regular orders the ability to spread over the initially ordered unit, to one or many other units than the first one, following a 6" range from the first ordered unit, not the officier himself. However this does not spreads further because this mechanic needs "voice of command" to trigger. This if really good for infantry based lists, because you can now have much wider impact for your orders on tight formations.
2+ save LRBT is what I'm been waiting for, since I tested 8th. And I'm not alone, from what could be seen on this forum (there was a thread about how to make the Leman Russ better). Leman Russes have always felt so much fragile to small arms fire / medium firepower, since the edition reboot, it felt so very wrong. This is a very welcomed change. It is by no means overpowered. LRBT 's will still be almost as vulnerable to dedicated anti-tank firepower as before. This will not make them weather laser and melta shots with ease. A 5+ or 6+ save in these cases is not something on which you can rely upon. A goodsave against ubiquitous AP-1 / AP-2 medium firepower is massive.
What saddens me a bit is that it is not given to Baneblade chassis, which is still a bad joke.
The Tank commander one should definitly Open up some funny options.
Do I understand right, that a Tallarn Cyclops charge can disembark 3" from a transport, move its normal 10", move another 6" from the tank order and then detonate?
Also Scout Sentinels (and Powerlifters if you use Legends) can scout move their 9", another 6" from the Tallarn order, 9" from their normal move, advance d6" and then charge 2d6" with "Crush them" for a hilarious 24+3d6" range?
The Orders buff will shave some points in a list. It also makes Tempestor Primes in particular more efficient.
Question: say I have a Company Commander in range of two Infantry Squads, each also within 6" of each other. I order FRFSRF on the first one; the second can get it as well. Can I also order Take Aim on the second one to get the rerolls of 1? Can that also carry back over to the first?
My reading is that the order buff does not override the rule that states a unit may only be affected by one order at a time, unless you combo them with the Laurels (and technically even the Laurels also do not since they allow an additional order to be issued to the unit, but do not explicitly state the unit can be affected twice...but I digress). That combo would allow a second order to the affected unit, but whether any additional units could be affected twice would be above my paygrade.
The new order rule excludes passing the Order on to Officer models, but doesn't stop us doing it the other way round - so you could Order a Platoon Commander and have it radiate out to several squads around him or her.
I also seems to work perfectly well through a vox network, so an isolated group of units (perhaps arriving from reserve from a table edge) could all benefit from one unit carrying a vox, instead of having to bring an officer with them.
to wound. This will be golden against Tau riptides, Tyranid flying tyrant, 
to hit, if this squad comes from reserves. No longer we will be able to safely and accurately overcharge plasma scions that just deep struck. Same for 
), but all we've seen since is one-shot characters, an upgrade sprue (which heavily implies no major refresh for the Cadians), and now a single plastic Kreig kit (which may or may not herald a full plastic Krieg range) and a single hero-unit kit for Tanith (who only ever had a single hero-unit to begin with, though admittedly with more minis due to when it took place in the series, and whose kit coincides with new 
Kage (13th Penal Legion): Previously had a model.
