wiserhipponinjas wrote:
Does anyone have some thoughts on how to handle Tau match ups? I am about to start a crusade where two of the players are using Tau. PL give a huge advantage to Tau as they can trick out Crisis Suits.

Use points instead (and scale up any references to PL with the 20:1 conversion factor). This is an excellent example of the reason why most people modify Crusade to use the normal point system. If your Tau players are WAAC TFGs and refuse to use the point system that fairly evaluates their units instead of exploiting the broken system then you dodged a bullet and should thank them for being honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's almost like it's a signature doctrine for Krieg...

Yes, that signature doctrine that is so vitally important and universal that the Krieg unit in the codex doesn't get it. You know that it's ok to occasionally admit that GW did something wrong, right?

Yeah, I can't feel sympathetic for that at all.

Yes, it is well established that you have no sympathy for anyone or anything but your own personal army and are perfectly fine with other people getting screwed over as long as you don't use those units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PaddyMick wrote:
1. All units seem to be stuck with Born Soldiers unless they want Cult of Sacrifice only

Fortunately not. Whoever wrote the document doesn't seem to understand that doctrines are for your whole army, not for a single detachment, but it adds an additional option. It does not replace the option to select doctrines normally or prohibit you from doing so, and everything has the REGIMENTAL keyword to benefit from doctrines.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's almost like it's a signature doctrine for Krieg...

Yes, that signature doctrine that is so vitally important and universal that the Krieg unit in the codex doesn't get it.

Catachans don't get Brutal Strength. Cadians don't get Born Soldiers.

The codex is vanilla. Codex supplements would be where those kinds of changes would be made.

You know that it's ok to occasionally admit that GW did something wrong, right?

You know that it's okay to just not post if you have nothing to add, right?

Yeah, I can't feel sympathetic for that at all.

Yes, it is well established that you have no sympathy for anyone or anything but your own personal army and are perfectly fine with other people getting screwed over as long as you don't use those units.

It's also well established that I think that fluff should matter, and putting "Swift Like the Wind" on a breaching drill fielded almost exclusively by Krieg is just gamey nonsense.

 PaddyMick wrote:
1. All units seem to be stuck with Born Soldiers unless they want Cult of Sacrifice only

Fortunately not. Whoever wrote the document doesn't seem to understand that doctrines are for your whole army, not for a single detachment, but it adds an additional option. It does not replace the option to select doctrines normally or prohibit you from doing so, and everything has the REGIMENTAL keyword to benefit from doctrines.

Or they understand it better than you think, and added a way for someone to field a Death Korps detachment alongside of a different setup.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Catachans don't get Brutal Strength. Cadians don't get Born Soldiers.

It's almost like that was a deliberate decision, that regiments are more than just their "signature" rules. If Catachans aren't locked to Brutal Strength then Krieg shouldn't be locked to Cult of Sacrifice.

Fortunately though you were wrong in interpreting the rule and the FW units can use normal doctrines like any other units.

It's also well established that I think that fluff should matter, and putting "Swift Like the Wind" on a breaching drill fielded almost exclusively by Krieg is just gamey nonsense.

And yet oddly GW disagrees with you, given the fact that the only reason it can't be taken with non-Krieg units anymore is "no model no rules" and GW used to even give you rules for a special veteran unit specifically to support using it with non-Krieg regiments. Maybe you should review the lore and prior rules before making condescending statements about someone else's army being "gamey nonsense"?

Or they understand it better than you think, and added a way for someone to field a Death Korps detachment alongside of a different setup.

Which does not function under the rules as written. Doctrines apply to every REGIMENTAL unit in your army, there is no such thing as replacing a doctrine for a single detachment.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Catachans don't get Brutal Strength. Cadians don't get Born Soldiers.

It's almost like that was a deliberate decision, that regiments are more than just their "signature" rules. If Catachans aren't locked to Brutal Strength then Krieg shouldn't be locked to Cult of Sacrifice.

Nowhere does it say that they are.
As I pointed out though, Born Soldiers is the default for Crusade. You do not get to pick and choose without using requisition actions. That FAQ does make it so that Born Soldiers can be swapped out for CoS with no issues.

Fortunately though you were wrong in interpreting the rule and the FW units can use normal doctrines like any other units.

Nowhere did I say they can't. But I think we have already established that you do not read things.

It's also well established that I think that fluff should matter, and putting "Swift Like the Wind" on a breaching drill fielded almost exclusively by Krieg is just gamey nonsense.

And yet oddly GW disagrees with you, given the fact that the only reason it can't be taken with non-Krieg units anymore is "no model no rules" and GW used to even give you rules for a special veteran unit specifically to support using it with non-Krieg regiments.

No, the rules were simply that a <Regiment> Combat Engineers(which didn't exist outside of Krieg) OR <Regiment> Veterans keyworded unit could utilize with it.

Maybe you should review the lore and prior rules before making condescending statements about someone else's army being "gamey nonsense"?

You mean the lore about it being specialized engineering equipment available to Krieg engineers and the rules where it was part of an Imperial Guard Siege Army?

Yeah. That totally screams "Swift Like the Wind"...especially the lore tidbit about them being rarely used on the battlefield.

Or they understand it better than you think, and added a way for someone to field a Death Korps detachment alongside of a different setup.

Which does not function under the rules as written. Doctrines apply to every REGIMENTAL unit in your army, there is no such thing as replacing a doctrine for a single detachment.

You do know that this magical concept of "exceptions to the rule" can happen, right?

 PaddyMick wrote:

The only two bits i didn't like;
1. All units seem to be stuck with Born Soldiers unless they want Cult of Sacrifice only

Pretty sure that rule doesn't stop them getting others. It's just a suggestion, like the FW unique SM chapters.

 Kanluwen wrote:
As I pointed out though, Born Soldiers is the default for Crusade. You do not get to pick and choose without using requisition actions. That FAQ does make it so that Born Soldiers can be swapped out for CoS with no issues.

A requisition which costs 0 RP so I'm not sure what your point here is. If you want to play an army with Cult of Sacrifice or whatever other doctrine you use the 0 RP requisition to change to your intended doctrine at the start of the campaign.

And no, you didn't technically say they're locked, you just posted to agree with someone who mistakenly did and gave an explanation for why it "works that way". Please don't try to hide behind nitpicking over specific hyper-literal wording.

No, the rules were simply that a <Regiment> Combat Engineers(which didn't exist outside of Krieg) OR <Regiment> Veterans keyworded unit could utilize with it.

In the 9th edition book. But the Hades has had rules for a lot longer than that.

In 8th edition it had its own special veteran squad with no specific regiment and couldn't be taken by Krieg engineers at all.

In 6th/7th edition it had its own special veteran squad with no specific regiment but could replace that squad with a squad of Krieg engineers. It also appeared as a separate option in the Krieg variant lists, linked to the engineer squad.

In 5th edition it was a dedicated transport for a veteran squad with no specific regiment. It also appeared as a separate option in the Krieg variant lists, linked to the engineer squad.

TL;DR: since the Hades was first created it has only been limited to Krieg units only for a few days. The rest of the time it has existed as a generic unit which could be taken by any regiment. Your assertion that it's a Krieg exclusive and having any other regiment is "gamey nonsense" is simply not supported by reality.

Jarms48 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:

The only two bits i didn't like;
1. All units seem to be stuck with Born Soldiers unless they want Cult of Sacrifice only

Pretty sure that rule doesn't stop them getting others. It's just a suggestion, like the FW unique SM chapters.

Aha, thanks. Reading it back, that makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spiderman518 wrote:


Its not the tank that has the turret rule it is the weapon. For example the Thunderer's "demolisher" was changed to "Demolisher Battle Cannon" which has the turret rule, which is my personal favourite find at first glance. 120pts for a demolisher Russ? Sure they still have the 3+ save and 12 wounds still, but I love the idea of more tanks on the table.

That's cool, must have a look at that Demolisher. But the malcador weapons don't have 'turret'

 PaddyMick wrote:
But the malcador weapons don't have 'turret'

Hilariously the hull mounted guns on the Annihilator and Defender do because they got the LRBT's "demolisher battle cannon" which has the turret rule. Still an inexcusably awful unit because of having 18 wounds and only a 3+ save though.

Again, this might be a dumb question, but anyway:
the last Codex I own physically is 8th. Back there the "EMPEROR’S CONCLAVE INFANTRY COMPANY" existed. Is something like that still around?

And unrelated to that: As I try to wrap my head around how Platoon works: is there any option (Warlord trait, stratagem, euqipment, whatever) that would allow a REGIMENT (so neither Cadian nor Catachan) Officers order to bounce more than 6'' from the ordered unit?
My collection is pretty heavy on Infantry, Cavalry and Sentinels, so it seems to me leaning into platoon and using it to its fullest is not a bad bet.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Again, this might be a dumb question, but anyway:
the last Codex I own physically is 8th. Back there the "EMPEROR’S CONCLAVE INFANTRY COMPANY" existed. Is something like that still around?

Nope. Specialist detachments are gone entirely, there are no longer any bonuses for taking particular units. The closest thing that still exists would be just taking an infantry-heavy list.

And unrelated to that: As I try to wrap my head around how Platoon works: is there any option (Warlord trait, stratagem, euqipment, whatever) that would allow a REGIMENT (so neither Cadian nor Catachan) Officers order to bounce more than 6'' from the ordered unit?

Nope. 6" is the limit.

Also, REGIMENT works differently now. All officers can give orders to any unit of the appropriate type. A Cadian command squad can give orders to a Catachan infantry squad. The named regiment keywords are now just additional keywords used for things like a stratagem that applies to a single CADIAN unit. Orders do not interact with those keywords at all.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Nope. 6" is the limit.

Also, REGIMENT works differently now. All officers can give orders to any unit of the appropriate type. A Cadian command squad can give orders to a Catachan infantry squad. The named regiment keywords are now just additional keywords used for things like a stratagem that applies to a single CADIAN unit. Orders do not interact with those keywords at all.

Oh, cool. So just to make sure, lets say I have the following setup:
one big Brigade Detachment with a whole bunch of dudes that have Guerilla Fighters and Recon Operators + a hand full of Catachans, like Sly, Straken, etc.
=> then Straken can order for example an infantry squad in the Guerilla/Recon army and let his order bounce around between them?

Or do the Catachans need their own Detachment? (I heard they don't but I'm not sure)

Pyro - what you've described works fine, and no need for a second detachment. If you are playing the Arks of Omen mission pack you can't take a second detachment anyway! But yeah, all you need is voice of command from an Officer to Platoon (or Squadron for vehicles)

That's pretty neat for me at least. I build and painted two seperate and distinguishable regiments and in 8th it was a bit fiddly to form detachments as one has too many fast attack choices, the other too many elites. Nice to know I now just have to keep an eye on all slots being filled, regardless if some desert-camo guys are listed with the jungle camo guys.

And of course that each officer can order the soldiers of the other force

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Oh, cool. So just to make sure, lets say I have the following setup:
one big Brigade Detachment with a whole bunch of dudes that have Guerilla Fighters and Recon Operators + a hand full of Catachans, like Sly, Straken, etc.
=> then Straken can order for example an infantry squad in the Guerilla/Recon army and let his order bounce around between them?

Correct. Also, note that the Catachans will also get the Guerilla Fighters and Recon Operators doctrine buffs because they have the REGIMENTAL keyword.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
But the malcador weapons don't have 'turret'

Hilariously the hull mounted guns on the Annihilator and Defender do because they got the LRBT's "demolisher battle cannon" which has the turret rule. Still an inexcusably awful unit because of having 18 wounds and only a 3+ save though.

The gun on the Thunderer does as well, despite being literally stuck in the front of the tank (the only way that gun turns is if the tank itself does). Art of War actually mentioned the Thunderer in one of their recent videos and said it might actually be a decent unit now if what you want is a cheap tank with a good gun.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Art of War actually mentioned the Thunderer in one of their recent videos and said it might actually be a decent unit now if what you want is a cheap tank with a good gun.

I don't see it TBH. You save so few points over a LRBT, the drop in value just isn't worth it.

The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

 warhead01 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

Yep

Combat Engineer Squad, Death
Rider Squadron, Heavy Mortar Battery, Earthshaker Carriage
Battery, Heavy Quad Launcher Battery, Medusa Carriage
Battery, Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery, Keywords
Add ‘Platoon, Regimental’

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

The target still gets +1 to their armour saving throws.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

Fair enough. I was about to make an argument for the Medusas until I spotted the range.

Does anyone know what is the base size for rough riders?

 p5freak wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

The target still gets +1 to their armour saving throws.

And Take Aim gives -1 AP, effectively cancelling both halves of the penalty as PaddyMick said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PaddyMick wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Yeah, the earthshaker becomes an interesting option. Basilisks can move and are more durable, earthshakers get better buff support and can still be taken in units of 1-3. Medusas and heavy mortars are trash though, and quad guns are somewhere in the middle but probably not good enough to replace mortar HWS spam.

Fair enough. I was about to make an argument for the Medusas until I spotted the range.

It's not the range that kills the Medusa, it's the D6 shots. The Basilisk has D6+3 shots (average 6.5) at D2, the Medusa has D6 shots (average 3.5) at DD6 (average 3.5). Twice the damage per shot, half the number of shots. Occasionally there's a target where the Medusa has a small advantage because of damage reduction but you're almost always better off with having double the volume of fire. If the Medusa had been adjusted to be D6+3 shots like the other blast weapons there would be an interesting decision between full-table range and maximum damage but as it is the Medusa is just a bad unit.

 PaddyMick wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
The FW keyword update has made me look again at indirect fire. Medusa and Earthshaker batteries getting Platoon means they can be ordered to Take Aim, effectively cancelling the indirect fire penalties.

Did the quad-launcher and Heavy mortar get that key word as well?

Yep

Combat Engineer Squad, Death
Rider Squadron, Heavy Mortar Battery, Earthshaker Carriage
Battery, Heavy Quad Launcher Battery, Medusa Carriage
Battery, Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery, Keywords
Add ‘Platoon, Regimental’

Thank you for the reply, most helpful!



I'm just starting to pick over what 9th has done to my IG army. Just plan to make do with what I already own. Still crying over the removal of conscripts.

I made I diorama last year for the ESCB with the base size cut to the size of a basilisk, but with this keyword and rules update I'm excited to use it as itself in a game. I originally thought the Krieg were too expensive, but watching mordian glories batreps makes me excited to run my Krieger's as actual Krieg (don't get to play that often, hoping for a game in Feb). I would like to run a infantry heavy list with some artillery support, I'm glad there's now half decent options with FOB and ESCB able to bounce orders to eachother. (Just finished FOB proxies the other day)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, now I've been thinking. Is the ESCB the best indirect fire unit we have now? It's 10 points cheaper than the Bombast FOB, +3 strength, an extra AP, can be taken in squads of 3, and "infinite range", vs avg of 0.5 more shots

I've got a GT next month and put this list together. What are some thoughts? My meta is dominated by either deathstar units, or small fast assault units.


++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [113 PL, 1CP, 1,995pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Heavy Support

Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen

Regimental Doctrine: Armoured Superiority, Swift as the Wind

+ HQ +

Platoon Command Squad [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]: Relic: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, WT: Old Grudges
. Astropath
. Platoon Commander: Boltgun, Power sword, Warlord
. Veteran Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon
. Veteran w/ Master-Vox: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun

Tank Commander [11 PL, -2CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Meticulous Calibrator, Relic: Gatekeeper, Stratagem: Officer Cadre, Stratagem: Relic, WT: Master Tactician
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Tank Commander [11 PL, -1CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Relic: Laurels of Command, Stratagem: Relic, Vanquisher Battle Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Veteran Commandeer: Elite Sharpshooters

+ Troops +

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

+ Elites +

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Veteran Guerrillas
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
. 2x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Laspistol and Melta Mine
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Marksman Rifle
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Recon Operators
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
. 2x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Laspistol and Melta Mine
. Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Marksman Rifle
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

+ Fast Attack +

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Scout Sentinels [6 PL, 90pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Quad Launcher Battery [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Quad Launcher Battery

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [18 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Thunderers [14 PL, 240pts]: Thunderer, Thunderer

++ Total: [113 PL, 1CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 Fishborne wrote:
I've got a GT next month and put this list together. What are some thoughts? My meta is dominated by either deathstar units, or small fast assault units.

Put Master Tactician on the vanquisher TC so you can have Lead by Example on your Gatekeeper TC, you want the best gun in the codex to have priority for buffs.

Double plasma gun shock troops is a typo. I get playing by strict RAW in a tournament context but if the first FAQ is released before your tournament expect this to be gone. Melta and plasma is the long-term answer.

Don't forget to give the key relic to one of your Kasrkin squads, even without Born Soldiers the mortal wound bomb is still strong.

Lascannon HWTs are bad. They're glass cannons that will never live long enough to justify their point cost. Either give the mortars or drop them.

The Thunderer is a bad unit overall since it doesn't have the 2+ save or secondary weapons of a real LRBT. I see you're very tight on points but if you can free up a few this should be a LRBT. Upgrading it to an executioner would be a good change if you don't have mortar HWS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Robcio wrote:
Wait, now I've been thinking. Is the ESCB the best indirect fire unit we have now? It's 10 points cheaper than the Bombast FOB, +3 strength, an extra AP, can be taken in squads of 3, and "infinite range", vs avg of 0.5 more shots

Best? I'm not sure if it beats mortars for that title. It's an immobile unit that isn't infantry (so no scoring RND or BotG), isn't core (no relic flag or re-rolls), and has a huge footprint (so hiding more than one is difficult). Even a Basilisk is more durable, has the option to get line of sight to remove the indirect fire penalty, and can get maximum shots against 6+ model targets. It's definitely less of a pointless joke unit than it used to be though, so don't feel bad about taking them.

Aecus Decimus wrote:


It's not the range that kills the Medusa, it's the D6 shots. The Basilisk has D6+3 shots (average 6.5) at D2, the Medusa has D6 shots (average 3.5) at DD6 (average 3.5). Twice the damage per shot, half the number of shots. Occasionally there's a target where the Medusa has a small advantage because of damage reduction but you're almost always better off with having double the volume of fire. If the Medusa had been adjusted to be D6+3 shots like the other blast weapons there would be an interesting decision between full-table range and maximum damage but as it is the Medusa is just a bad unit.

It's pretty niche and I have no idea if there are units where this is relevant at all, but due to Blast, the Medusa gets a bit better against larger groups of targets with >2 wounds.
If there are 5+ targets the average shots go to 4 (Medusa) vs. 7 (Basilisk) and against 10+ to 6 (Medusa) vs. 9 (Basilisk). If those targets have 3 wounds (looking at Custodian Guard for example), the medusa should outperform the Basilisks. (Basi needs two hits to kill a 3 wound target, Medusa needs on average 1.139 hits to kill a 3 wound target)

 Pyroalchi wrote:
It's pretty niche and I have no idea if there are units where this is relevant at all, but due to Blast, the Medusa gets a bit better against larger groups of targets with >2 wounds.
If there are 5+ targets the average shots go to 4 (Medusa) vs. 7 (Basilisk) and against 10+ to 6 (Medusa) vs. 9 (Basilisk). If those targets have 3 wounds (looking at Custodian Guard for example), the medusa should outperform the Basilisks. (Basi needs two hits to kill a 3 wound target, Medusa needs on average 1.139 hits to kill a 3 wound target)

Yeah, that's an excellent demonstration of the problem. If we assume both weapons auto-hit and auto-wound with no saves (since they have the same target rolls) against a 5-10 model target the Basilisk's 7 shots turn into 3.5 dead models while the Medusa kills 3.511. Technically the Medusa wins but only by 0.3%. Against 11+ model targets (if such a thing even exists) the Medusa does a bit better, killing 5.26 models vs. the Basilisk's 4.5 for a 17% improvement but that's fairly small advantage in an extreme edge case situation. If you bump the target up to W4 the Medusa falls behind while the Basilisk still needs the same two wounds to kill.

In short: yes, you can come up with very specific targets where the Medusa has a small advantage but they're nowhere near common enough to make up for how badly it falls short against everything else.

On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

it did some time ago, hence the "medusa siege gun" as the original name.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
On that topic: am I hallucinating that or did the Medusa once had a rule to do better damage against fortifications?

Yep. You used to have a bastion breacher shells upgrade which replaced the 5" blast with a 3" blast but improved its armor penetration from 2d6 pick the highest to straight 2d6.

Alright, I've changed my list some and I will add some insights into why I chose things and tactics I've found for them.


Regimental Doctrine: Armoured Superiority, Swift as the Wind

+ No Force Org Slot +

Commissar [3 PL, -1CP, 40pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Laurels of Command, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury

+ HQ +

Cadian Castellan [3 PL, -1CP, 50pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord, WT: Old Grudges

Platoon Command Squad [4 PL, -1CP, 75pts]: Relic: Finial of the Nemrodesh 1st, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury
. Platoon Commander: Boltgun, Power sword
. Veteran Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon
. Veteran w/ Master-Vox: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun

Tank Commander [11 PL, -2CP, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Meticulous Calibrator, Relic: Gatekeeper, Stratagem: Imperial Commander's Armoury, Stratagem: Officer Cadre, WT: Master Tactician
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Tank Commander [11 PL, 200pts]: Armoured Tracks, Lascannon, Vanquisher Battle Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Veteran Commandeer: Elite Sharpshooters

+ Troops +

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

Cadian Shock Troops [3 PL, 65pts]
. 6x Shock Trooper: 6x Lasgun
. Shock Trooper Sergeant: Drum-fed Autogun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Shock Trooper w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Shock Trooper w/ Vox-caster

+ Elites +

Kasrkin [5 PL, -1CP, 100pts]: Veteran Guerrillas
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: The Barbicant's Key, Stratagem: Battlefield Bequest
. 4x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

Kasrkin [5 PL, 100pts]: Recon Operators
. Kasrkin Sargeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Kasrkin w/ Hot-shot Lasgun: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun x2
. Kasrkin w/ Vox-caster

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [6 PL, 100pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Armoured Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Attilan Rough Riders [10 PL, 140pts]: Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance, Rough Rider w/ Hunting Lance
. Rough Rider Sergeant: Goad Lance

Scout Sentinels [6 PL, 90pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw
. Scout Sentinel: Militarum Plasma Cannon, Sentinel Chainsaw

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar x3

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [18 PL, 340pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Dozer Blade, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Armoured Tracks, Dozer Blade, Executioner Plasma Cannon, Lascannon
. . 2 Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Thunderers [14 PL, 240pts]: Thunderer, Thunderer

++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts] ++

The commissar with Laurels is for anti deepstrike, and flipping an objective on my opponents turn. Command is for secondaries (inflexible and boots), Vanquisher is because my meta loves is big baddies (Hence the old Grudges character)

Cadians are to come in from reserve for boots secondary.

Kasrkin hit hard.

Armoured Sentinels are to hang out with the Command Squad like big brothers. Scout Sentinels are to push back deep strike the first turn, then harass flanks/alleyways. Rough Rider units are super fast with the swift as the Wind Bonus so they can get around what screens I couldn't punch through with shooting.

Mortars are for secondaries and small backfield units, maybe pinning order here and there.

The Thunderers are used like a hellhound. 3+ save, slower move but can take orders and are a cheap turret demolisher Cannon.

I was going to comment earlier but was thinking this would be better off in the list section.

Anyway that's an interesting view on the Thunderers. Haven't tried them personally but I'd say they're closer to a vindicator. More broadly threatening than a bane wolf for example but the bane wolf with MM gets minimum 6 shots and the turret doesn't degrade. I'd be interested to hear your results. I think a lot depends on how high you roll for shots. I'd be hesitant to take more than 1 especially since I can't see what roll they really fill here.

This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority. I like to pair it with mechanized for a fairly fast army with a jump on board control but obviously MI is not for this current list. Recon will allow your cmd, cavalry and sents to play more aggressive and push forward your Bubble wrap when needed. On that note I would suggest a ogryn bodyguard to take the command squad to the next level for scoring and anchoring. Their contribution is much better this way particularly since you have few core units to benefit from the finial.
The HWS I personally liked the las synergy you had in the earlier version if you are anticipating some hard nuts like abbadon. Might be a little too cool over practical but I dig the idea in a vacuum at least.

The commissar you will regret. 6" range and a relic slot is pretty poor. This is better handled by positioning and possibly recon operators. If you lose this dude you can easiy squeeze another shock troops.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Lastly I like the pack of armoured sentinels but I would consider making the unit 3 strong and reducing down to 1 scout. If you fit a ogryn bodyguard this is a great LoS screen and support for them and would allow you to take center field with confidence (and +6" move with recon for both).

Anyway just some friendly input. GL to ya.

dominuschao wrote:
This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority.

No, you definitely want armored superiority with this list. With ~75% of your points spend on vehicles you need them to be effective scoring units.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Dozer blades are free for normal russes, but cost 5 pts. for tank commanders.

 p5freak wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Dozer blades are free for normal russes, but cost 5 pts. for tank commanders.

Which is probably why the list in question only has them on the heavy support LRBTs, not the TCs.

Some interesting points. I didn't post in the list section because some synergies and tactics with the new profiles deserve to be talked about. Such as the Thunderer. It has benefits and drawbacks compared to a devil dog but is mostly similar. I like that it is tougher, damage is less swingy, and has turret.

Another interesting subject is when should you stop taking damage dealers and take the Squishy Secondary Squads (SSS which will be lovingly called that in my head). Dropping a scout Sentinel in my list above and trimming back on armored tracks gave me one SSS.

And finally what heavy Weapon Squads are equipped with. I was flip flopping on mortars and lascannons but came to the conclusion one Squad of mortars won't do anything unless I play against trash backfield units. My meta is overwhelmingly marines of all colors and flavors so I'm doing myself no favors by taking only one Squad of mortars. I think if I had 3 Squads of HW then it's a different story. Mortars are needed in large numbers. So I switched back to lascannons. They can move around with the Finial close by so 'the pop out from behind line of sight blocking terrain' traffic has merit.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
This particular list I would consider recon instead of armoured superiority.

No, you definitely want armored superiority with this list. With ~75% of your points spend on vehicles you need them to be effective scoring units.

The russes are all too pricey for my tastes since they will die regardless. I'd drop all dozer blades consider dropping all armoured tracks and the calibrator upgrade. There's another shock troops.

Dozer blades are free so there's no reason not to have them. Armored tracks is a very strong upgrade for its cost. And ignoring cover with Gatekeeper is well worth the points. I wouldn't put it on a random LRBT but on the powerful relic? Hell yes.

Hmm I glossed the free dozer blades good call. It seems the LR is the only chassis its free for so cool I'll take some too.
My point on those upgrades is often it doesn't matter. Armoured is great, at its best vs plasma and other similar weapons, if they keep firing at the same tank after hes popped the strat. But melta and rail guns for example don't care they'll still remove the model.

I do see the mech density, what I was suggesting was basically to reduce reliance on those tanks to be contesters. This by dropping some things like the commissar for more bodies and buffs elsewhere like on the command squad. That would make the cmd squad a midfield unit and its fantastic in that role. The bodies basically fill the role the commissar was meant for anyway.

My issue with AS (oustide of full skew russ lists) is too many ifs. No contester then it doesn't exist. If there is an enemy within range does your tank outnumber? If so is the enemy obsec? If so is the TC in 12" to spend an obsec order. Too much. And then feeling the need to put long ranged weapons into close proximity of an enemy unit.

Consider what that does vs say.. blood angels. As opposed to a pre game move to stagger bubble wrap and set up double cavalry, armoured sentinels and a combat command squad. This basically stacks with master tactician to give supreme control over deployment.
Anyway that was my thought process and its just an idea. I'd be interested to hear how much AS factored in.


On when to take more damage dealers vs SSS.. Idk. In this game its obviously tilted pretty heavily towards the DD. But cheap expendable squads are still useful for screening out areas and scoring. While having a unit like the ogryn bodyguard is pure gold in this army.

dominuschao wrote:
Armoured is great, at its best vs plasma and other similar weapons, if they keep firing at the same tank after hes popped the strat. But melta and rail guns for example don't care they'll still remove the model.

Sure, but there's a finite amount of melta and rail guns in the opposing list and they're going to have to put other weapons into those tanks. And remember, this is a token 5 point upgrade we're talking about. Modest value is absolutely enough to justify taking it, this isn't a 50-100 point upgrade where it has to make the unit virtually invulnerable to be worth having it.

I do see the mech density, what I was suggesting was basically to reduce reliance on those tanks to be contesters. This by dropping some things like the commissar for more bodies and buffs elsewhere like on the command squad. That would make the cmd squad a midfield unit and its fantastic in that role. The bodies basically fill the role the commissar was meant for anyway.

Dropping a commissar for another squad is not changing the fundamental nature of the list: a heavy commitment to tanks where the tanks need to be able to score objectives. Even with the additional squad that's stil 75% of the points spent on tanks.

My issue with AS (oustide of full skew russ lists) is too many ifs. No contester then it doesn't exist. If there is an enemy within range does your tank outnumber? If so is the enemy obsec? If so is the TC in 12" to spend an obsec order. Too much. And then feeling the need to put long ranged weapons into close proximity of an enemy unit.

As if recon isn't? You need to want to move your units that additional distance, you need to have enough of them to add sufficient value, etc. Every doctrine except Born Soldiers is situational but having all of your vehicles be better at scoring objectives is one of the most commonly relevant options.

Well agree to disagree then and let's see his results.

Just stumbled over the announced Arks of omen detachment (https://www.wargamer.com/warhammer-40k/arks-of-omen-detachment#:~:text=The%20Arks%20of%20Omen%20detachment%20is%20much%2C%20much,unless%20they%E2%80%99re%20fielding%20Imperial%20Knights%20or%20Chaos%20Knights.)and just wanted to make sure I understand this right:
So I can practically build what is almost the same as a brigade but include Superheavies and fortifications in the same detachment? And therefore the superheavies even if it's only one would get regiment traits without further hassle?

Yes

Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

What is a key character ? My guess would be any named character ?

Possibly reference to the extra characters in elite slot you can take? But yeah clarification to that. Maybe he's working from non-english rules. There's no key character term in english rules.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

Do you mean, which units are compulsory?

You need one HQ, and then three Troops OR Elites OR Fast Attack OR Heavy Support OR Lords Of War.
Then you get a bunch of extra slots.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

Do you mean, which units are compulsory?

You need one HQ, and then three Troops OR Elites OR Fast Attack OR Heavy Support OR Lords Of War.
Then you get a bunch of extra slots.

Maybe its in reference to the "Heroic Support" stratagem? In which case it would be anyone with the "Commandant" keyword. Allowing you to take two ina detachment

 spiderman518 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

Do you mean, which units are compulsory?

You need one HQ, and then three Troops OR Elites OR Fast Attack OR Heavy Support OR Lords Of War.
Then you get a bunch of extra slots.

Maybe its in reference to the "Heroic Support" stratagem? In which case it would be anyone with the "Commandant" keyword. Allowing you to take two ina detachment

So 2 tanks commanders would still be allowed?

 Salted Diamond wrote:
So 2 tanks commanders would still be allowed?

Yes, why wouldn't they be?

If the limit to 1 per detachment isn't detachment rule like say be'lakor&daemon princes and ork specialist mobs

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 spiderman518 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

Do you mean, which units are compulsory?

You need one HQ, and then three Troops OR Elites OR Fast Attack OR Heavy Support OR Lords Of War.
Then you get a bunch of extra slots.

Maybe its in reference to the "Heroic Support" stratagem? In which case it would be anyone with the "Commandant" keyword. Allowing you to take two ina detachment

So 2 tanks commanders would still be allowed?

Correct, tank commanders do not have any 0-1 limit on them and never have (at least since 8th edition).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people doing with all-infantry armies these days, now that AoO took away our troops slots? I miss being able to clog the table with 300 conscripts and win by default, is there anything like this play style anymore? I know "send in the next wave" was tragically nerfed and then removed from the game.

Thought for the day: the heretics and xenos can not win if your first movement phase takes four hours and there is no time left in the round.

 Conscript #760714 wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 spiderman518 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Which guard units count as "Key characters" for Arks detachments?

Do you mean, which units are compulsory?

You need one HQ, and then three Troops OR Elites OR Fast Attack OR Heavy Support OR Lords Of War.
Then you get a bunch of extra slots.

Maybe its in reference to the "Heroic Support" stratagem? In which case it would be anyone with the "Commandant" keyword. Allowing you to take two ina detachment

So 2 tanks commanders would still be allowed?

Correct, tank commanders do not have any 0-1 limit on them and never have (at least since 8th edition).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are people doing with all-infantry armies these days, now that AoO took away our troops slots? I miss being able to clog the table with 300 conscripts and win by default, is there anything like this play style anymore? I know "send in the next wave" was tragically nerfed and then removed from the game.

Thought for the day: the heretics and xenos can not win if your first movement phase takes four hours and there is no time left in the round.

Mordian Glory took a pure infantry army to a tournament and went 5-1 or 5-0-1 i forget. It looks like our infantry went up in killing power and the Kreigers are surprisingly tough.

His list was like
Regimental Traits: Swift as the Wind and Heirloom weapons

HQ
2x Kreig Marshals
Cadian Command Squad with Nork, Death Mask, and Superior Tactical Training: Prefectus orders. Its the "Unkillable" command squad he calls the DredNork.
Primaris Psyker

Troops
12x Kreig with medic and 2x Meltas

Elites
3x Karskin

Then in a separate patrol detachment, the "Scion Deathball"

HQ
Tempestus Command Squad, with the Drill Commander trait, and the Final of Nemordesh First

Troops
3x Scions with Plasma and Hotshot Volley guns

The Kreigers march forward and die gloriously for the Emperor, while the Karskins and Scions, especially the Scions, just melt the enemy army. Im actually looking forward to running a similar list, since infantry guard was my thing back in 5th and 6th before i took a break

I'm currently looking at starting a WW1 inspired Astra Militarum army, in which I'm looking at lots of troops, cavalry support, lots of artillery and little to no armour or air support (although I will field some at some stage.)

The following list I've put together would strictly be for casual games and less formal tournaments I go to (more charity fundraisers than actual WAAC games!)

HQ:
1 x Death Corps Marshal
1 x Death Korps Rider Commander

Elites:
1 x Commisar, power sword, plasma pistol

Troops:
6 x Death Korps of Kreig Infantry Squads, Vox Caster in each

Fast attack:
1 x 10 Model Death Riders Squad
1 x 10 Model Death Riders Squad
1 x Scout Sentinels, each with Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support:
1 x Earthshaker Carridge Battery, 3 Guns
2 x Quad Launcher Battery, 6 Guns

2000pts exactly.

As for regimental doctrines, etc. I'm not sure. I was toying with grimm determination to avoid combat attrition debuffs, and expert bombadieers to get more milage from the artillery.
Kreigers are tough, and anything to stop mass casualties (and aesthetic choices!) makes them pretty good for this list.
I'm using the death riders and sentinels to give turn one pressure to an opponents flanks, to clog up his deployment and to simply kerp them in a position for my artillery and squads to not get shot at/objective control.

Any input is very much wanted - hoping this type of Army is at least viable!

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm currently looking at starting a WW1 inspired Astra Militarum army, in which I'm looking at lots of troops, cavalry support, lots of artillery and little to no armour or air support (although I will field some at some stage.)

…

Any input is very much wanted - hoping this type of Army is at least viable!

Great minds think alike! I’ve put together an infantry/artillery WWI army inspired by the Somme, replacing Krieger gas mask helms with the ones used by the British instead.

I haven’t played any games yet in the new edition, but I have been having fun with the list building for now. If I may offer some suggestions.

1) Aegis Defence Lines! They’re so cheap in the new edition and, they were nice before but with orders they make your objective holding artillery rearguard actually way more survivable. If you are willing to model sandbag and muddy trenches in lieu of the more imperial prefab heavy stone barricades, it’s both fluffy AND feasible!

2) Master of Ordnance. Non-negotiable in larger lists where you have artillery at play, it’s 25pts for wonderfull re-roll 1’s. And he doesn’t even have to be near your artillery units for this to work in the new edition! Given that he is part of a unit that has a character officer in it, you don’t have to be worried about being singled out either if placed well.

3) You and I are of like minds with regimental doctrines. Not that expert bombardiers can be redundant if combined with the order take aim, unless the enemy has -1 modifiers at play. But in that case just use a different order.

4) I don’t rate cavalry, but that’s just me and the particular theme I’m after. If you aren’t set on having that much Calvary in your list, consider taking Kasrkin. Stormtrooper outfits are certainly in keeping with the WWI theme, and that born warrior doctrine is nothing to sniff at. Snipers are also very fluffy, but outside of rat longs I think you can only get units of them if you do up a platoon squad for that purpose.

Overall, I like the cut of your jib and wish you best of luck. I find that Sabaton - ‘Price of a Mile’ is always a good pre-game tune.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm currently looking at starting a WW1 inspired Astra Militarum army, in which I'm looking at lots of troops, cavalry support, lots of artillery and little to no armour or air support (although I will field some at some stage.)

…

Any input is very much wanted - hoping this type of Army is at least viable!

1) Aegis Defence Lines! They’re so cheap in the new edition and, they were nice before but with orders they make your objective holding artillery rearguard actually way more survivable. If you are willing to model sandbag and muddy trenches in lieu of the more imperial prefab heavy stone barricades, it’s both fluffy AND feasible!

I have been waiting for the new Aegis Gun line metrics for this purpose. The raised platform allows for potential diorama details below.

I've seen this mentioned.....but what do you guys mean when you say that double plasma on cadians is a typo????? Is this on an FAQ or something?

There is a belief that the following will get FAQd at some point because it is currently written in a nonsensical way:

WARGEAR OPTIONS

• Up to 2 Shock Troopers can each have their lasguns replaced with one of the following: 1 flamer; 1 grenade launcher; 1 meltagun; 1 plasma gun.*
• 1 Shock Trooper equipped with a lasgun can be equipped with 1 vox-caster. This model's lasgun cannot be replaced.
• The Shock Trooper Sergeant's laspistol can be replaced with 1 bolt pistol.
• The Shock Trooper Sergeant’s laspistol and chainsword can be replaced with 1 drum-fed autogun.

* You cannot select the same weapon more than twice per unit.

The nonsensical bit if it isn't clear is:

* You cannot select the same weapon more than twice per unit.

As currently you could remove that line and not change the wargear selection rules as written.
But, if the line said:

* You cannot select the same weapon more than once per unit.

It would make sense and would be a valid use of printer ink to put that in a codex.

However, I think it will remain and you will be able to take 2 plasma guns in your squads until the next codex.

To me its a pretty clear typo, it makes no sense being there as its currently written plus GW writes new rules to match the kit so two of each weapons wouldn't be in line with that.

Whether they actually FAQ it, who knows but its pretty obvious to me.


On a different note, can anyone point to to some maths hammer regarding comparing the Russ Turret Weapons and Sentinel weapon options?
As they all cost the same I suspect various ones are just better - think I know which (plasma) but would like to actually know and also see if some come out ahead in edge cases.

 WisdomLS wrote:
To me its a pretty clear typo, it makes no sense being there as its currently written plus GW writes new rules to match the kit so two of each weapons wouldn't be in line with that.

Makes perfect sense when you compare it to the Catachan Jungle Fighters unit entry, which is 1 Flamer per 5 models.

Or if you realize that it was likely written at a time that the Cadian Shock Troops and Death Korps of Krieg units were able to be fielded in 5-20 model units...

Whether they actually FAQ it, who knows but its pretty obvious to me.

Frankly, I'm more concerned with things like the Kasrkin Sergeant being able to take a hotshot lasgun. It's an entry given from Shadowvaults and it's buildable out of the kit.

Hi everyone, had my Grand Tournament last weekend. Went 3-2 and ended up placing 17th out of 42. It was player placed LOS blocking terrain with every table having several magic boxes (which suck btw). My meta is fast assault armies and/or unkillable bricks with small-medium shooting.

My opponents were:
Game 1 vs Knights (win 100-76)
He had a freeblade Lance with 1 Errant, 3 helverns, 2 moiraxes, and 5 Warglaives.

Game 2 vs Creations of Bile (win 70-61)
He had a winged prince, master of possessions, dark apostle, 10 chosen, 10 plague marines, 2x10 legionaires, 3 possessed squads and fillers.

Game 3 vs emissaries custodes (loss 28-35)
Trajann, -1 to hit banner,, 2 bike units, 2 vegetarian, 2 Sagittarius, aquilon terminators

Game 4 vs world eaters (loss 48-100)
Invocatus, Executioner, 2 jackals, 3x5 berserker, 3x5 eight bound, 3x3 exalted eight bound, 3x1 spawn

Game 5 vs Darks Angel's (win 97-52)
2 talonmasters, special banner, apothecary, 2×10 death wing, 1×2 tornados, 3×1 vengeance, 2x1thunderstrike, Infiltrators

I picked grind them down (game 2) or boots on the ground (game1,3-5), inflexible Command and either bring it down (game 1) or retrieve Battlefield data (game 2-5).

I had several lessons learned. When i set up terrain i would make a large LOS block on one flank and set up fire lanes going into it on the other side. Then set up the Executioners or thunderers going on the LOS blocking side. The entire point is to get their good units placed in the firelanes behind the terrain thinking its safe. After set up and before first turn, if I was going first I would master Tactician my tanks into places where they could quickly get into the firelanes and blast the forward units. If i went second I would take the forward units and set them up conservatively. That worked every time!

I learned the vanquisher should not be a Commander. She sat back or only moved around the backfield most of the time (away from ordering units after the first turn)

My list leaned into armor and the tricks Infantry guard can do, but I need to change the Infantry to be secondary Squads only. IE change the Platoon Command to a Scion command for boots secondary in the backfield, drop the lascannons, Infantry Squad, commissar, and Castellan for something else.

The thunderers were MVPS every game! Counting as 5 is big when all you need is a toe to take an objective away from 4 enemy models. I tried not to charge them into someone unless I needed to take enemy units out of a turn or I needed extra movement. The demolisher Cannon is very focused on who opponents like to take midfield objectives with and are cheap enough that it doesn't hurt when they bite the dust.

Executioners over Battle cannons anyday. I was Always faced with 2+ save models and unless they had an invulnerable save they melted.

I honestly don't know about the rough Riders. The people I was running against must have been reading up on them because they were focused down or matched up against heavy weights way out of their league. I will still run them, because when they work, the hills sing!

Guard FAQ up.

Page 91 – Cadian Shock Troops, Wargear Options
Change the asterisk note to read:
‘* You cannot select the same weapon more than once per unit.’

Page 92 – Death Korps of Krieg, Wargear Options
Change the first asterisk note to read:
‘* You cannot select the same weapon more than once per unit.

Pages 100, 101, 146 – Militarum plasma cannon
Change the ability text of this weapon’s supercharge profile
to read:
‘Blast. Each time an unmodified hit roll of 1 is made for an attack
with this weapon profile, the bearer’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound
after shooting with this weapon.’

Pages 113 – Valkyrie, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Airborne: You cannot declare a charge with this model, and it
can only be chosen as a target of a charge if the unit making the
charge can Fly. You can only fight with this model if it is within
Engagement Range of any enemy units that can Fly, and this
model can only make melee attacks against units that can Fly.
Enemy units can only make melee attacks against this model if
they can Fly.’

Page 114 – Aegis Defence Line, Abilities
Change the first sentence of the Terrain Feature ability to read:
‘Terrain Feature: After this model is set up, it is treated as an
Obstacle terrain feature with the following terrain traits, as
described in the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book:’

Page 124 – Tempestus Scions, Wargear Options
Change the fourth bullet point to read:
‘The Tempestor’s hot-shot laspistol can be replaced with one of
the following: 1 bolt pistol; 1 plasma pistol.’

Q: If an Officer unit is embarked within a Chimera and uses the
Mobile Command Vehicle ability to issue an Order, can that Officer
issue additional Orders after disembarking, using the Disembarking
Officers rule detailed in Voice of Command?
A: The Officer unit can issue an Order using the Chimera’s
Mobile Command Vehicle ability, followed by as many Orders as it
can normally issue after disembarking from a Transport model as
per the Disembarking Officers rule.
Example: While embarked within a Chimera, Josh’s ‘Iron Hand’
Straken issues one Order using the Mobile Command Vehicle ability,
and then disembarks from the Chimera and issues ‘Iron Hand’
Straken’s two normal Orders using the Disembarking Officers rule,
for a total of three Orders issued.

Q: If Ursula Creed issues an Order to a unit, and that Order is
replaced by another Order, does the unit continue to receive any
modifier to the Strength characteristic of its ranged attacks conferred
by the Lord Castellan’s Fury ability?
A: No. If the Order that triggered the Lord Castellan’s Fury
ability is replaced by another, the affected unit loses the
associated modifier.

Q: Can the Trophy Hunters doctrine be selected for the purposes
of a Kasrkin unit’s Warrior Elites ability or the Veteran
Commandeer Tank Ace upgrade even if my army has a different
Regimental Doctrine?
A: Yes.

Q: Can I use the Field Promotion Stratagem to select the same
Warlord Trait as the Warlord that was just destroyed had, or
likewise for any other previously destroyed model which had a
Warlord Trait?
A: No.

Q: If I use the Field Promotion Stratagem to select the Old Grudges
Warlord Trait, am I able to select an enemy unit for the purposes of
the Old Grudges ability?
A: No. You can only select an enemy unit for the Old Grudges
ability at the start of the first battle round

Lazy, lazy garbage. Who submits these questions?

This is absolutely trash. What's the bloody point of these named regimental units, if not to let them do something unique? Might as well just trash the ability to take two specials and just slap a Heavy Weapons Team in there.

Most important, no kasrkin MW bomb nerf. The FAQ is absolute garbage, it changes nothing. AM will still be the no.1 faction.

 p5freak wrote:
Most important, no kasrkin MW bomb nerf. The FAQ is absolute garbage, it changes nothing. AM will still be the no.1 faction.

They also didn't even address the Sergeant discrepancies from the KT->Main rules.

All in all, pretty pathetic showing. Makes me wonder what the hell the point of having the FAQ was.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard FAQ up.

Lazy, lazy garbage. Who submits these questions?

This is absolutely trash. What's the bloody point of these named regimental units, if not to let them do something unique? Might as well just trash the ability to take two specials and just slap a Heavy Weapons Team in there.

The change to a single of each weapon is just fixing the obvious typo on their datasheet and making sure that the unit entry matches what is available in the kit. Do I like the unimaginative, no conversion, no kitbash approach they are taking with units option now - No, but we all know that's how its being done so just live with it.

As p5freak mentions above, I'm mostly concerned that they didn't nerf Kasrkin - I just want an official fix for them. I've been playing that they can do a max of 6MW total but they likely need a further nerf as that's still far to good. I think changing born soldier so that it loses the "counts as a 6" part would be good as that rule just asks for trouble.

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard FAQ up.

Lazy, lazy garbage. Who submits these questions?

This is absolutely trash. What's the bloody point of these named regimental units, if not to let them do something unique? Might as well just trash the ability to take two specials and just slap a Heavy Weapons Team in there.

The change to a single of each weapon is just fixing the obvious typo on their datasheet and making sure that the unit entry matches what is available in the kit. Do I like the unimaginative, no conversion, no kitbash approach they are taking with units option now - No, but we all know that's how its being done so just live with it.

If they were "fixing the obvious typo on their datasheet", then Catachans would have seen a change as well.
Spoiler! They didn't.

Also, what the hell are you talking about "no kitbash, no conversion"? Have you built any of the new Cadians or Krieg? You're conflating "what's in the box" with other stuff. Don't do that.

As p5freak mentions above, I'm mostly concerned that they didn't nerf Kasrkin - I just want an official fix for them. I've been playing that they can do a max of 6MW total but they likely need a further nerf as that's still far to good. I think changing born soldier so that it loses the "counts as a 6" part would be good as that rule just asks for trouble.

Don't care. More interested in them fixing the loadouts.


At this point, it's obvious that they take too much feedback from tournaments. Thanks tournaments for ruining yet another of my frigging armies before I ever get a chance to play with them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guard FAQ up.

Lazy, lazy garbage. Who submits these questions?

This is absolutely trash. What's the bloody point of these named regimental units, if not to let them do something unique? Might as well just trash the ability to take two specials and just slap a Heavy Weapons Team in there.

The change to a single of each weapon is just fixing the obvious typo on their datasheet and making sure that the unit entry matches what is available in the kit. Do I like the unimaginative, no conversion, no kitbash approach they are taking with units option now - No, but we all know that's how its being done so just live with it.

If they were "fixing the obvious typo on their datasheet", then Catachans would have seen a change as well.
Spoiler! They didn't.

Also, what the hell are you talking about "no kitbash, no conversion"? Have you built any of the new Cadians or Krieg? You're conflating "what's in the box" with other stuff. Don't do that.

As p5freak mentions above, I'm mostly concerned that they didn't nerf Kasrkin - I just want an official fix for them. I've been playing that they can do a max of 6MW total but they likely need a further nerf as that's still far to good. I think changing born soldier so that it loses the "counts as a 6" part would be good as that rule just asks for trouble.

Don't care. More interested in them fixing the loadouts.


At this point, it's obvious that they take too much feedback from tournaments. Thanks tournaments for ruining yet another of my frigging armies before I ever get a chance to play with them.

I sorry but you don't seem to understand the point here.

GW are moving their rules to a point where the datasheet covers the unit that can be built out of the boxes they sell. This isn't good, but it is a fact. It discourages people from combining kits and parts from different units -this is partly due to the chapter house case from a few years back and partly no doubt in the hope to increase sales.

The new cadian box comes with one of each special weapon, thus the squad can only take each one once.

The Krieg box comes with one of each special weapon, thus the squad can only take each one once.

This was obvious intended from the codex entry but was cocked up by a copy and paste error,

The Catachan entry hasn't been changed because it doesn't need to - they can take two flamers because the kit comes with 2 flamers.

If GW took the feedback from tournament players then fixing Kasrkin would be the first thing they did.

 WisdomLS wrote:

I sorry but you don't seem to understand the point here.

Nah, I get it just fine. You parroted a common argument that doesn't fly.

GW are moving their rules to a point where the datasheet covers the unit that can be built out of the boxes they sell. This isn't good, but it is a fact. It discourages people from combining kits and parts from different units -this is partly due to the chapter house case from a few years back and partly no doubt in the hope to increase sales.

lol, then they wouldn't lock you to one of each per squad if they wanted to "increase sales". The Scion and Kasrkin Sergeants would get lasgun options.

Seriously, do you lot actually read your own arguments?

The new cadian box comes with one of each special weapon, thus the squad can only take each one once.

Except it doesn't come with "one of each special weapon". It comes with one of each weapon listed. But since the DKoK and Cadian Shock Troop boxes are also meant to double for the "Infantry Squad" unit entry, this argument falls flat every. frigging. time.

The Krieg box comes with one of each special weapon, thus the squad can only take each one once.

Same thing.

This was obvious intended from the codex entry but was cocked up by a copy and paste error,

No actually, it wasn't "obvious intended". You lot keep parroting these things to the point where GW just does it because they're swamped with crying comments from people who haven't even read the frigging book yet, just some half-cocked scan or whatever trash you got from Wahapedia or Battlescribe.

The Catachan entry hasn't been changed because it doesn't need to - they can take two flamers because the kit comes with 2 flamers.

Sure it does, after all--you have to convert them to hold the flamers.

If GW took the feedback from tournament players then fixing Kasrkin would be the first thing they did.

Or they wouldn't, because the only place I've seen complaining about the "Kasrkin Deathball" has been from theoryhammering sessions.

You obviously don't want to listen to reasoned explanations of why things are the way they are.

There is no conspiracy, things are the way they are for pretty obvious reasons.

Keep enjoying (or not) the hobby in any way you like :-)

And yet, we don't get options for Hotshot Lasguns on Kasrkin Sergeants or Tempestors or Tempestor Primes.

And yet, we don't get Heavy Weapon Squads with Vox-Casters despite the new kit literally including them.


If you really want to talk down at me? Know that I've actually built the bloody kits. I also was actually around for the Chapterhouse case and saw the fallout of it--and the simple fact that it didn't affect what you claim it did. This push for the contents of the box to be the contents of the datasheet is all tourney player complaints, primarily focused around bits sellers and the like.

Hysterics aside, the Kasrkin change is probably something they'd sort out in the Balance Datasheet, same as they did with Flamers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They also didn't even address the Sergeant discrepancies from the KT->Main rules.

Why would they? Kill Team is not 40k and there is no rule that models must be valid for both games. In fact the precedent was set from day one with the original KT 2.0 box that KT would have models that are not included in 40k.

No actually, it wasn't "obvious intended". You lot keep parroting these things to the point where GW just does it because they're swamped with crying comments from people who haven't even read the frigging book yet, just some half-cocked scan or whatever trash you got from Wahapedia or Battlescribe.

It absolutely was obviously intended. There were two separate statements:

The unit may take up to two special weapons.

The unit may not take more than two of the same special weapon.

The second statement as-written is redundant and nonsensical. If you can only take two weapons total you don't need a separate rule that you can't take more than two of the same, taking more than two of the same is already banned by the first rule. The only reason the asterisk note had any reason to exist was if it was meant to be a limit of no more than ONE of each weapon. And GW made the obvious correction that everyone was expecting from the moment Cadia Stands was released.

Whether or not you agree with GW's decision to prohibit duplicate special weapons or any supposed reason GW made that decision it is indisputable fact that the rules as originally printed contained a typo and now GW has corrected the error in the way we expected.

What's the bloody point of these named regimental units, if not to let them do something unique?

They do something unique. Basic infantry squads get heavy weapons but only one special weapon. Cadians have buffed lasguns and double special weapons. Krieg have increased durability and up to three special weapons, though in a less-efficient configuration that leaves room for Cadians. Catachans get a melee buff and double flamers. You may not be able to take the double plasma that would be the optimal tournament netlist option for them (ironic given your complaints about tournament players) but they all have very clear roles to fill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
Most important, no kasrkin MW bomb nerf. The FAQ is absolute garbage, it changes nothing.

It wasn't really expected. The first FAQ rarely addresses balance issues, it is focused on correcting print errors and clarifying ambiguous rules. Kasrkin are arguably a balance issue but their rules are very clear and functional as-written. The only thing that might have happened to Kasrkin in this FAQ was if GW decided that the split fire trick was an error in writing the stratagem text and changed it to a limit of 6 MW total, but apparently they've decided that 6 per unit is intended and will be treated as a (potential) balance issue.

AM will still be the no.1 faction.

Actual tournament data disagrees with you.

Shame on the double weapons, it was fun while it lasted. Glad I waited before converting extra plasma models.

Kasrkin I personally don't feel need a nerf. Not like Tau commanders or a bunch of other more busted things. Now maybe the full combo with split fire might but I don't use it so I wouldn't know. If they do I hope it's sensible and not unit ending.

Similarly I haven't played with the split fire mortal trick, I assume it wasn't intended and have told my opponents that how I'll be playing it. Had hoped the FAQ would have confirmed that but as you say they may treat it as a balance issue for the next dataslate.

Having used the Kasrkin a few times now I think they may be a problem - sure it costs a couple of CP but being able to put that much targeted firepower anywhere (outside of 9") that you want is a bit much for 100pts.
Its the stacking buffs issue, the unit itself isn't an problem, the strats themselves aren't an problem but add in full reroll from LS and the extra hit & AP order and it becomes oppressive.

One of my hopes for 10th edition is they bring in some classes of "buff" and each unit can only benefit from one of each at a time. Would make it alot easier to balance the game and lead to alot less multiplicative damage bursts or defensive walls.

All buffs could class as either defensive, offensive, moral or mystical. Only one of each on a unit, should cover most abilities and stop stacking.

Just cap it to 6mw total instead of per unit… they didn’t think of split fire when they wrote it.
A bunch of armies have a similar ability..
To be fair kaskrin would still be extremely strong regardless of that change.
The kaskrin bomb is more a meme then anything you can reliably get 12mw split firing which is a bit much regardless even if 18mw isn’t as easy as the Internet wants you to believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doesn’t the dkok vet squad box come with the extra sprue for killteam right now still? And thus you are able to build dual plasmaguns however it’s not in the rules?

I don’t recall as I haven’t bought the new kit separately.

The Kill Team sprue didn't have the plasma on it. Flare gun, demo charge, medic bag on separate piece, narthecium-doodad, trench club, etc are the pieces from the KT frame.

I'm a little bummed about the change to Creed's Fury. Having a third regimental order is pretty unlikely to be useful, and in practice you'll rarely be giving more than one unit the Strength buff (pretty sure a squad with take aim is better than one with FRF!SRF! and plus one strength).

Moves her from memey goodness to tough call over a basic castellan.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm a little bummed about the change to Creed's Fury. Having a third regimental order is pretty unlikely to be useful, and in practice you'll rarely be giving more than one unit the Strength buff (pretty sure a squad with take aim is better than one with FRF!SRF! and plus one strength).

Moves her from memey goodness to tough call over a basic castellan.

.
Wait til you learn of dkok marshal it’s even cheaper

To my understanding, Krieg still cannot take even a single plasma (if I want vox) and only one of each special weapon, correct?

Seems like they just went from barely useable to non-usable compared to cadians. (Coming from Krieg infantry-heavy army perspective)

Robcio wrote:
To my understanding, Krieg still cannot take even a single plasma (if I want vox) and only one of each special weapon, correct?

Seems like they just went from barely useable to non-usable compared to cadians. (Coming from Krieg infantry-heavy army perspective)

Unfortunately so, I believe the Krieg kit is one of the new style "multipart" kits where not all parts fit with all bodies. Each model will have 1, 2 or 3 configurations it can be built in, with the Vox caster's other build being the plasmagun. Thus you can only have one or the other.

Obvious its a trivial bit of modelling to put the gun on a different body but GW is really aiming at the lowest effort hobbiests it seems.

I don't remember having to chose between vox and plasma on my krieg. I had to choose between Plasma and melta because of bad sprue design (curse you A73!!!).

So the vox/plasma thing is just baffling.

If you have a gander on the internet you will see their build instructions.

You are right. There are 2 ways to build a plasma gunner in the KT box. GW decided to limit the vox+plasma combo because ??? reasons.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
You are right. There are 2 ways to build a plasma gunner in the KT box. GW decided to limit the vox+plasma combo because ??? reasons.

M.

And they kept the sniper for....reasons? I guess they decided that the blindly suicidal siege guys needed a marksman instead of actual heavy weapons

Would have rather kept demo charge

Looking at battlescribe and Kreig Grenadiers seem interesting, especially now that GW nerfed double special weapons.

Has anyone else looked into them? Hotshot lasguns, 2x plasma and an elite statline for 70pts a squad seems pretty good to me.

Edit: Too good to be true. Whats the catch?

Krieg Grenadiers are legends and can't be used in matched/tournament play.

Jarms48 wrote:
Krieg Grenadiers are legends and can't be used in matched/tournament play.

This is wrong. Legends are still legal in matched play/tournament play as per GW rules. GW doesnt recommend using them, but thats just a recommendation. Of course TOs can decide to exclude legends units with a house rule, but thats their ruling.

BakedWaffleFries wrote:
Looking at battlescribe and Kreig Grenadiers seem interesting, especially now that GW nerfed double special weapons.

I was planning on getting some grenadiers and just using them as Kasarkin. Looks like I won't be able to use any of my Kriegers as actual Kriegers
:( At least my army will look cool but if I decide to go to events I'm going to have to ask permission each time if I can "counts as" Krieg infantry as Cadians and Grenadiers as Kasarkin.

Robcio wrote:

BakedWaffleFries wrote:
Looking at battlescribe and Kreig Grenadiers seem interesting, especially now that GW nerfed double special weapons.

I was planning on getting some grenadiers and just using them as Kasarkin. Looks like I won't be able to use any of my Kriegers as actual Kriegers
:( At least my army will look cool but if I decide to go to events I'm going to have to ask permission each time if I can "counts as" Krieg infantry as Cadians and Grenadiers as Kasarkin.

That’s my plan… also tinylegends is the only site I’ve found for good volleygun conversions for the grenediers.
Heck I’m still on the lookout for a goad lance conversion for my deathriders (anyone spot someone selling conversion kits feel free to share)

 p5freak wrote:

This is wrong. Legends are still legal in matched play/tournament play as per GW rules. GW doesnt recommend using them, but thats just a recommendation. Of course TOs can decide to exclude legends units with a house rule, but thats their ruling.

It's going to be incredibly difficult to find someone to play with using legends units. Seeing as they don't get any kind of point updates, ability, or keyword changes. Even GW tournaments don't allow legends.

So, when were the plastic Guardsman replaced with the officially official Cadians? I thought those were two distinct units, but I can't find the older Guardsmen for sale.

There's just been cadian and catachans in plastic. Cadians got updated models but unlike orks old version ofsame kit didn't remain(then again new cadian kit isn't such a mess as orks were)

I figured they'd keep the old models around since they have distinct rules and an upgrade kit was released for them recently enough.

I imagine they're just reboxing the old Cadian kit and renaming it to "Infantry Squad."

 Bobthehero wrote:
I figured they'd keep the old models around since they have distinct rules and an upgrade kit was released for them recently enough.

Eh they were cadians then, would be cadians now.

There's never been generic model for IG. Just cadians and catachans.

The codex don't have a model picture for the unit entry of "Infantry Squad" its an entry designed for you to use whatever old style models you have to represent the unit.

It not surprising that they remove an old cheaper kit when they release a new more expensive one - just like the old sentinel is no longer available.

Technically the brood brothers Genestealers box is just the Cadian infantry squad sprues and heavy weapon sprue and a cult upgrade sprue…

I can’t see them discontinuing old Cadian sprue when they still need the kit for other units.

gungo wrote:
Technically the brood brothers Genestealers box is just the Cadian infantry squad sprues and heavy weapon sprue and a cult upgrade sprue…

I can’t see them discontinuing old Cadian sprue when they still need the kit for other units.

I'm kinda/sorta expecting a generic "infantry squad" box at some point in the next few years.

Reason why is that there's quite a few missing options across the various boxes.
-Cadians are missing sniper rifles, boltgun option for the sergeant, and naturally the Heavy Weapons Team from their box.
-DKoK are missing the Heavy Weapons Team.
-Catachans are missing basically everything...but they get two flamers!!!!1!!

The upgrade frame that they released for the previous Cadian box, randomly out of the blue? That covered the holes of plasma, melta, sniper rifle, and sgt weapons(power sword, plasma pistol, boltgun). It doesn't fit on the new Cadians.

A ground-up sprue for an infantry squad, including a heavy weapons team and one of each special, isn't beyond the realm of belief.

Ha I’ve been hoping for a penal legion box, that you could use for renegade guard or genecult brood brothers for a bit

gungo wrote:
Ha I’ve been hoping for a penal legion box, that you could use for renegade guard or genecult brood brothers for a bit

Have you seen the Cannon Fodder models from Wargames Atlantic? Male and female options, 24 per box, and pretty compatible...?

No legal penal legion rules unfortunately:(
They also aren’t all that.. it’s more nostalgia for me anyway. I use to play with my last chancers back in third.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Reason why is that there's quite a few missing options across the various boxes.
-Cadians are missing sniper rifles, boltgun option for the sergeant, and naturally the Heavy Weapons Team from their box.
-DKoK are missing the Heavy Weapons Team.
-Catachans are missing basically everything...but they get two flamers!!!!1!!

It's not that they're missing it. GW just made rules for what already existed in these boxes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A ground-up sprue for an infantry squad, including a heavy weapons team and one of each special, isn't beyond the realm of belief.

They're not going to make any new oldcadian scale models, so do you mean a cadian shock troopers expanded infantry box with the normal cadian shock troops sprues, and then a new sprue that somehow has 1/3 of cadian heavy weapon team sprue A, 1/3 of cadian heavy weapon team sprue B, one sniper rifle, and one boltgun? That would be kind of a weird box. It feels like GW has written themselves into a corner with all the dumb disparate infantry squads where each one is missing certain elements which can't be added without entire new sprues.

 ph34r wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
A ground-up sprue for an infantry squad, including a heavy weapons team and one of each special, isn't beyond the realm of belief.

They're not going to make any new oldcadian scale models, so do you mean a cadian shock troopers expanded infantry box with the normal cadian shock troops sprues, and then a new sprue that somehow has 1/3 of cadian heavy weapon team sprue A, 1/3 of cadian heavy weapon team sprue B, one sniper rifle, and one boltgun?

I mean a subfaction agnostic kit, potentially using The Blooded as the design base. They weirdly went out of their way to differentiate the Cadian design for the Shock Troops from The Blooded for things like the helmets and pauldrons. Might be nothing, might be something.

Either way? I'm not expecting it any time soon.

That would be kind of a weird box. It feels like GW has written themselves into a corner with all the dumb disparate infantry squads where each one is missing certain elements which can't be added without entire new sprues.

The janky part is that Krieg is basically there. They just need HWTs.
Catachans are in line for a new box, period, and I'd expect that to address some of the issues.
Cadians are missing the sniper rifle option to be able to be Infantry Squads and the boltgun for sergeants, and I don't know how to fix that. I'm thinking we might see an updated version of the Cadian Snipers blister at some point though, possibly tying in to the Cadian sniper themed novel coming up.

 Kanluwen wrote:

gungo wrote:
Technically the brood brothers Genestealers box is just the Cadian infantry squad sprues and heavy weapon sprue and a cult upgrade sprue…

I can’t see them discontinuing old Cadian sprue when they still need the kit for other units.

I'm kinda/sorta expecting a generic "infantry squad" box at some point in the next few years.

Reason why is that there's quite a few missing options across the various boxes.
-Cadians are missing sniper rifles, boltgun option for the sergeant, and naturally the Heavy Weapons Team from their box.
-DKoK are missing the Heavy Weapons Team.
-Catachans are missing basically everything...but they get two flamers!!!!1!!

The upgrade frame that they released for the previous Cadian box, randomly out of the blue? That covered the holes of plasma, melta, sniper rifle, and sgt weapons(power sword, plasma pistol, boltgun). It doesn't fit on the new Cadians.

A ground-up sprue for an infantry squad, including a heavy weapons team and one of each special, isn't beyond the realm of belief.

I think it's more likely that in the next Imperial Guard codex the Infantry squad will go the way of the dodo (are we allowed to say "squatted" these days?). The Cadian troop box is fine as it is. Shock Troops aren't allowed a sniper rifle, the sergeant isn't allowed a bolter, and there is no option to take a heavy weapon team anyway. DKoK are pretty much complete too. I think that the Infantry Squad is just a stopgap for players who already have a lot of the options to keep playing with them. It won't exist in the next codex.

I think the real question is: What will happen with Catachans? I think we'll see a Catachan Devil box released soon. Hopefully it will be more interesting than the current Catachan choice in the 9th edition codex. Will it be a Troops choice or Elite? Who knows? I hope it's coming though. Alternatively GW might just delist the box and not have a Catachan entry in the next codex at all. I hope that doesn't happen, we'll see.

El Torro wrote:

I think the real question is: What will happen with Catachans? I think we'll see a Catachan Devil box released soon. Hopefully it will be more interesting than the current Catachan choice in the 9th edition codex. Will it be a Troops choice or Elite? Who knows? I hope it's coming though. Alternatively GW might just delist the box and not have a Catachan entry in the next codex at all. I hope that doesn't happen, we'll see.

Maybe I'm too hopeful, but I could see Guard getting more unique Troop choices as Killteam continues to go on. Things like:
- Catachan Devil Squad
- Tallarn Desert Raiders
- Elysian Drop Troops
- Armageddon Legionaries

Then all they need to do is a new datasheet for the new kit. Give each of them a unique special rule like the current named infantry squads. So Tallarn could have a bonus save in cover, Elysians have deep strike, Armageddon can disembark after a transport moved.

Apologies for the editing of your post, Torro, but you have two different ideas going that I wanted to respond to outside of simply cutting a single bit apart.

El Torro wrote:

I think it's more likely that in the next Imperial Guard codex the Infantry squad will go the way of the dodo (are we allowed to say "squatted" these days?). I think that the Infantry Squad is just a stopgap for players who already have a lot of the options to keep playing with them. It won't exist in the next codex.

You'd have more of a point if the Brood Brothers update didn't focus on the Infantry Squad and the "iconic" Guard stuff. GSC are now our best barometer for Guard changes going forward, since they will likely receive their updated book before we do.


If the Infantry Squad was truly to be just a stopgap? It would have just been tossed into Legends.

The Cadian troop box is fine as it is. Shock Troops aren't allowed a sniper rifle, the sergeant isn't allowed a bolter, and there is no option to take a heavy weapon team anyway.

Shock Troops aren't allowed a sniper rifle or their sergeant a boltgun...despite those being options literally just put out on an upgrade frame sold ONLY with the previous Cadian Shock Troop box, allowing you to use them with the Veteran Guardsman Kill Team(aka: The Octarius KT) list.

DKoK are pretty much complete too.

Yes, as a self-contained unit. But there was more stuff relatively reliably rumored to be coming for them, same with Catachans, allowing for each subfaction to actually be able to be used as a visually distinctive force.

I think the real question is: What will happen with Catachans? I think we'll see a Catachan Devil box released soon. Hopefully it will be more interesting than the current Catachan choice in the 9th edition codex. Will it be a Troops choice or Elite? Who knows? I hope it's coming though. Alternatively GW might just delist the box and not have a Catachan entry in the next codex at all. I hope that doesn't happen, we'll see.

Catachan Devils are reputedly what the Catachan "elite" box will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

Maybe I'm too hopeful, but I could see Guard getting more unique Troop choices as Killteam continues to go on.

There's a lot of ways this could go. Easiest one is simply them releasing the plastic kits with a lil' paper minidex or something ala Agastus.

Then all they need to do is a new datasheet for the new kit. Give each of them a unique special rule like the current named infantry squads. So Tallarn could have a bonus save in cover,

I think Tallarn are likely to get the ability to fire after falling back or running for their signature squad.

Elysians have deep strike,

Elysians were a missed opportunity for Gallowdark. We could have had them instead of Arbites.

Armageddon can disembark after a transport moved.

Or they could just come with a transport baked into their unit.

Just saw the two replies to my post. Not much to add, either agreeing or disagreeing. Ultimately we all have opinions on how the Guard should go. I’m not saying I don’t want to see more options for the pre-existing Guard options, just that I think it’s unlikely to happen. I think the problem with Guard is that the more options available to players the more the sales are split between different boxes. It works with Space Marines because they’re very popular, i don’t think sales in Imperial Guard are similar.

From what I found online the Cyclops Demolition charge has the regimental keyword.

As far as I see the doctrine heirlooms weapons does increase the range of all ranged weapons by 4".

Does this mean a Cyclops Demolition charge can have a 10" radius upon exploding?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
From what I found online the Cyclops Demolition charge has the regimental keyword.

As far as I see the doctrine heirlooms weapons does increase the range of all ranged weapons by 4".

Does this mean a Cyclops Demolition charge can have a 10" radius upon exploding?

Looks like yes. Probably not worth taking Heirloom over Born Soldiers, but if you're already taking Heirloom, is a fun trick.

I find it kind of interesting because you can still fire coming from strategic reserves right? So with a little bit of luck you can set it up >9" but <10" from something juicy and hit it with the charge. Possible even multiple targets. Sounds neat for 50 points a pop

The complete range of Armageddon Steel Legion miniatures, made out of pewter, will be back for a week on the GW store !
I have an almost complete set of squads, a detachment compliant to Arks of Omen, of Valhallans (8 squads, full loadout, plus plenty of heavy weapons squads), though partly painted.
But when I see this type of Made to Order deals, it is hard to resist the temptation.
Steel Legion are very neat miniatures from 3rd edition, sleek industrial look, easy to paint.

But the pile of shame ! Aaaaaarghhh !


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/19/sunday-preview-commander-farsight-takes-his-shot-at-the-arks-of-omen/
Scroll down.

Funny thought, not sure if someone has mentioned this already or how viable it is. The banner relic let's core ignore hit modifiers, wouldn't that include the -1 from moving a firing heavy weapons? So you could have HWT with lascannons running around full speed and still hitting on +3 (2 dudes running around with a massive cannon are just as accurate as alien targeting technology because they have a banner near them, lol)

Would this make regular infantry an option, as you can include HWT in those squads for free. Their biggest drawback was not being able to move them but with the banner and an order you could easily have Heavy Bolters running around with extra wounds and obsec hitting on 3's

Robcio wrote:
Funny thought, not sure if someone has mentioned this already or how viable it is. The banner relic let's core ignore hit modifiers, wouldn't that include the -1 from moving a firing heavy weapons? So you could have HWT with lascannons running around full speed and still hitting on +3 (2 dudes running around with a massive cannon are just as accurate as alien targeting technology because they have a banner near them, lol)

Yes, and if you order your Field Ordnance Battery to Take Aim and then move them then they will fire their towed artillery on the move exactly as accurately as a normal guardsman fires their lasgun. And they will be exactly as fast too!

Field ordnance batteries dont have core keyword, so dont benefit from finial of nemrodesh.

heavy weapons teams do.

Welp! There goes the Karskin bomb, and the overpowered banner.

Not that it was an unexpected nerf.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
Welp! There goes the Karskin bomb, and the overpowered banner.

Not that it was an unexpected nerf.

M.

Maybe by the time 10th comes out in like what 2 months, Kasrkin will even be a unit that we can purchase and play with! Can't say the nerf effected me much because GW won't let me purchase their products

Losing the banner hurts but my Kasrkin have never generated more than a couple of mortal wounds in the shooting phase so a six MW cap hasn’t affected me.

 ph34r wrote:
Maybe by the time 10th comes out in like what 2 months, Kasrkin will even be a unit that we can purchase and play with! Can't say the nerf effected me much because GW won't let me purchase their products

I've just been using old metal Kasrkins. I've seen people also use the old style stormtroopers to represent them as well.

I just use dkok grenediers and got a pair of tinylegends hotshot volleyguns.

I'm more of a Stormtrooper guys. I got 3 full squads that love to aerial drop until that rule probably goes away until IG gets a codex.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I'm more of a Stormtrooper guys. I got 3 full squads that love to aerial drop until that rule probably goes away until IG gets a codex.

M.

Stormtroopers/Scions will probably keep their ability to aerial drop. It is kind of their thing.

How have people been liking all vehicle lists? I've been fairing ok with mine so far at 1.5k and 2k, and in a meta where at least one player's list can wipe 9-12 Infantry Squads in a single round of shooting, using Hydras and Hellhounds as body blockers has worked well thus far.

I'm a big fan for thunderers. Cheap, hits hard and fills the roll of distraction Russ.

Maybe this is already old news for all of you, but I just skimmed through this article:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/08/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum-2/?utm_source=CUSTOMERS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GW_8th_May_Astra_Focus_GER_&utm_content=&utm_term=

Just to check back, specifically the stratagem "Reinforcements!": Do I understand correctly that I can sort my infantry heavy list in blocks of 20 and potentially get them back for 2 CP without reinforcement points?

That is my understanding until we see the 10th edition rulebook.

CP will be less available in 10th so you may have to wait until Turn 2 to have enough CPs to bring a unit back as reinforcements.

I would be just happy to know that there is a realistic chance that some dozen guardsmen might be still (or again) alive in the later turns

New Guard seem good, but suffer from poor internal balance. Hopefully there's some point updates that fix this.
- Basilisks and Manticores are just fantastic. S Tier really. Basilisks can really hamper an opponents play by either slowing down their melee infantry or slowing their movement towards objectives. Manticores while their special rule is geared towards clearing larger units their statline allows them to engage most vehicles.
- Leman Russes are really hit and miss. Best variants are definitely the Demolisher and Exterminator. Demolisher with hull lascannon, 2 multi-meltas, hunter killer, and heavy stubber can almost kill another Leman Russ if you get within 18 inch range. If you can stack a scout sentinel buff on it then you can kill another Leman Russ. Exterminator is carried by its special rule, pairs really well with high volume low AP weapons.
- Scout Sentinels are also just fantastic. Also S Tier. Still incredibly cheap at 50 points a model, can be brought back with the stratagem, can easily get orders from officers, and fantastic support ability. If you take 3 units of these, you can basically declare 3 enemy units you want dead every turn. Push these into the mid-field, force the enemy to deal with 21 T7 Sv3+ units. Not sure what weapons I'd give them, plasma cannons still look great but aren't as reliable as you can't RR1's anymore. Though honestly you can really justify anything on them.
- DKOK look like the way to go with infantry. DKOK have a lot of nice tricks. Tons of special weapons can get 6 in 20 model squads. I'd probably attach Platoon Command Squads to them with another 3 special weapons and a medi-pack. That means if you can trigger their special ability and give them take aim you're hitting on 2+, then with durability you're getting a Sv5+, FNP6+++, and D3 models back a turn. Primaris Psyker could be good here too giving an Invul of 4++. Making this squad decently hard hitting and decently survivable.
- Cadians offer a lot of utility. I'd probably stick Lord Solar in here with a Cadian Command Squad with a master vox. Which gives Lord Solar a 24 inch order range.

Will edit later.

We probably need a new IG tactics thread for 10th edition.

There is one gather the platoons or something like that titled.