Arcanis161 wrote:
The Orders buff will shave some points in a list. It also makes Tempestor Primes in particular more efficient.

Question: say I have a Company Commander in range of two Infantry Squads, each also within 6" of each other. I order FRFSRF on the first one; the second can get it as well. Can I also order Take Aim on the second one to get the rerolls of 1? Can that also carry back over to the first?

Under the base rules for orders in the codex, its pretty specific that each unit can only be under the effect of one order at a time unless specifically stated otherwise. So far as I understand it, you cant just stack orders onto units like crazy by ordering each unit in a formation a different thing and having a FRFSRF, take aim, bring it down, get back in the fight death mob. I will say the fact that the 6" bonus effect coming from the unit ordered, not the officer, is pretty awesome. Opens up so many clever plays. For example, Cadians can use a whiteshield unit to issue a single order to an absolutely massive zone. They can also use the vox caster relic combined with voxes on a few key units to order a whole outflanking force on the other end of the table. Stormtrooper commanders no longer HAVE to take the command rod. Platoon commanders can actually be very effective in a list with limited HQ slots, say if we get the commander limit similar to other codexes or youre running tank commanders. You get the idea.

Ive been looking into the tank orders stuff. Sadly the Cadian specific order for tanks only really works with russes as it states it allows the turret weapon to reroll shots, not any weapon. The Tallarn order on the other hand is absolutely amazing for tons of units. I have a feeling we're going to see some really cool strategies come out of the Tallarn armored companies. As for everyone elses armor, Strike and Shroud is a hidden gem. Almost every piece of armor we have has smoke launchers. Sentinels, Manticores, Hellhounds, chimeras, you name it, its got smoke launchers. Very handy if you say, need to move a Manticore into the open for the +1 BS to hit a target you can see for example. Taking a tank commander with master of command, or pask, for orders may actually have some serious merit now.

Shame the infantry company specific orders dont get the order buff. I understand though how an entire infantry company of Mordians sniping off of one order or a whole valhallan infantry list firing into combat could be seen as potentially causing issues though.

Curious to see if 2+ save russes makes much of a difference. Theres lots of AP1 and 2 weapons its going to help with at least, but I still feel the russ's biggest issue is melee. But hey, Ill take it and use it best I can. A bunch of russes opening up turn 1 with strike and shroud could be a rough thing for an ork gunline to deal with.

Another maybe weird, maybe funny combo: should you by chance consider the Malcador Infernus as giant Cyclops charge it can now move 20+2d6" under the "Full trottle" order (as it is not titanic). Should be enough to get near enough to some juicy targets that the titanic explosion can wreck havoc

Vox-Casters do seem to be a bit more of value now, you can keep a Coy Cmdr back with a Vox command squad and issue an order to heavy weapons' teams nearby, and another order to a set of infantry further up without needing multiple officers, or every squad with a Vox to do it.

Also neat that the Officer can order himself (or herself!), and essentially turn the order into an aura affecting all relevant units within 6" of the Officer.

Almost wish that Tank orders worked the same way on Leman Russ' (chain within 6"), but the ability to use them on other vehicles certainly opens some new possibilities. Overall a decent upgrade for guard, while not being amazingly game changing or overpowered.

The Orders buff saves somewhere between 20-70 points, depending on how many vox casters you get.

Gonna try out 4 Russes (Spearhead) in a 1k point game this weekend. Next weekend will be trying out the Orders Buff.

What army composition would you suggest against Eldar with tons of Windriders and shining spears and warp hunters. They all move insanely fast and the warp hunters auto hit Heavy 3 S12 AP-4 D6 damage.

Disclaimer: this is just theoryhammer and not based on practical experience.

When I look at those Eldar units I see a fast Chimera statline with a pretty hefty short range AT gun (Warp Hunter)
a T4 W2 4+ bike statline with an anti infantry gun without AP (Windriders)
and a T4 W2 3+ statline that's also not too shabby in melee (shining spears)

Looking at this I would note:
1. None of those seem to have an efficient answer to Bullgryns. The Warp Hunter would waste most of his power, the Windriders don't have the AP, the Shining spears would have to get into melee, which doesn't seem like the best idea against Bullgryns and D2 is not the most efficient against our W3 boys
2. Another thing I would consider are cheap T7 vehicles (Chimera for example) with two Heavy Bolters. They cost only 85 points and again: non of the mentioned eldar units is really efficient at killing them. The Warp Hunter on average needs more than one round to kill one of those even in short distance (3 shots, 2.5 wounds, average 8.25 damage) which is not really great for a 195 point hover tank targeting a model not even half its cost. On the other hand the heavy Bolters seem to be an efficient statline to deal with the Windriders and shining spears and have enough range to "catch" those even if they zip around. Also the AP -1 is just enough to not be wasted at the shining spears InvSv and D2 is optimal.
3. I might be wrong, but judging from the statline alone none of those seem to be really overwhelmingly efficient at removing guardsmen. Don't take me wrong, Assault 4, 4/0/1 on the windriders is good against GEQ but again: for a 20 point model shooting at guardsmen sitting on objectives? With Windriders BS3+, assuming that they advanced that should "only" be 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.88 unsaved wounds for not even one dead guardsmen

Putting this (as I said only theoretical approach) together I would say: Lots of Guardsmen sitting on objectives, lots of Heavy Bolter Chimeras blocking movement and firing at the shining spears and Windriders + a couple of Bullgryns, at least some of those sitting in the Chimeras to jump out when the Warp hunter comes close to kill the Chimera. I assume the Eldar player should have some trouble killing the Guardsmen fast enough to take objectives, while he can't really ignore the Chimeras firing at his infantry with the optimal weaponsprofile.
But let's hear it from people with practical experience.

warpedpig wrote:
What army composition would you suggest against Eldar with tons of Windriders and shining spears and warp hunters. They all move insanely fast and the warp hunters auto hit Heavy 3 S12 AP-4 D6 damage.

I've yet to face a single issue that isn't solved by demolishers. If he's playing heavily with Bikes I'd suggest putting triple flamers on all your russes.
They're gonna hurt in an overwatch as he won't be able to avoid by charging through a wall (Since bikes can't) and if he tries to tag multiple ones he'll get cooked quite fast.
One or two astorpaths could be a wise investment to try and deny his powers since they're pretty hefty power multipliers (and to give the aforementioned "Just try and charge me" russ a 1+ save).

Warp Hunters only having 3 shots shouldn't worry you TOO much, it's gonna take two of them to kill one Russ and then he'll be left out in the open where they just get crunched by a TC investing 2 CP into maximizing his shots while your other tanks/manticore can hurt the other one.

So, uh, it's been a couple of weeks. What do people think about the update and, if using Cadians, the Cadian stuff combined with the update?

I played a game recently against Be'lakor and his special Detachment, which seems specifically anti-Cadian, but it was a close game, with my main mistakes being not taking out his Sicaran Destroyer turn 1 and moving up too quickly.

The Orders buff plus Vox saves some decent points. Rather than spending 105 points on three Company Commanders, you can instead buy one and 3-5 Vox Casters (for redundancy).

The Leman Russ buff actually saved two tanks from dying in that match as well. Now the Russ doesn't seem like a waste of points.

I'm happy overall. I still want us to be able to handle those at the top too, but I think we've moved from bad to "not terrible" overall.

Arcanis161 wrote:

The Orders buff plus Vox saves some decent points. Rather than spending 105 points on three Company Commanders, you can instead buy one and 3-5 Vox Casters (for redundancy).

Voxes are still useless, the relic is even more useless. Just take Creed who has a 12 inch aura and 3 orders. That then bubbles out 6 inch from the target unit for potentially 18 inch order range, same as a vox. Creed can basically order your entire army.

If you're planning on doing the strategic reserve plasma bomb with 3 plasma command squads, just take a single platoon commander who can order all 3 squads.

Arcanis161 wrote:
The Leman Russ buff actually saved two tanks from dying in that match as well. Now the Russ doesn't seem like a waste of points.

I'm happy overall. I still want us to be able to handle those at the top too, but I think we've moved from bad to "not terrible" overall.

Russ buff was nice, I'm still salty all the other Guard tanks didn't get the buff though. *Cough* Thunderer, Malcadors, Macharius', Baneblades *Cough*

With Cadian and the Balance Update we're in a decent place. Definitely not 1st place material, but could get into podium with a good list and some luck.

Jarms48 wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:

The Orders buff plus Vox saves some decent points. Rather than spending 105 points on three Company Commanders, you can instead buy one and 3-5 Vox Casters (for redundancy).

Voxes are still useless, the relic is even more useless. Just take Creed who has a 12 inch aura and 3 orders. That then bubbles out 6 inch from the target unit for potentially 18 inch order range, same as a vox. Creed can basically order your entire army.

If you're planning on doing the strategic reserve plasma bomb with 3 plasma command squads, just take a single platoon commander who can order all 3 squads.

...I wasn't doing a strategic reserve plasma bomb?

Also, it's actually still 12" from the first unit. But, if you have a 30 man unit of Whiteshields 12" away, you could get slightly better than 18" overall. I'll have to consider that.

Curious: any reason now as to why Vox Casters still cost points? Seems like removing that cost could be a small buff for us.

Does anyone else think it's kinda funny that Leman Russ's now have a better save than the super-heavies?

I know, I know, the super-heavies have more wounds ect... still, would it have broken them completely if they had also gotten the 2+?

leerm02 wrote:
Does anyone else think it's kinda funny that Leman Russ's now have a better save than the super-heavies?

I know, I know, the super-heavies have more wounds ect... still, would it have broken them completely if they had also gotten the 2+?

I have a feeling GW changed the Cult Leman Russ in the upcoming GSC codex to a 2+ save. They gave us that buff early. So none of the other vehicles were even considered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arcanis161 wrote:
...I wasn't doing a strategic reserve plasma bomb?

I know, but that's one of the few times a vox and/or the vox relics only real use.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Also, it's actually still 12" from the first unit. But, if you have a 30 man unit of Whiteshields 12" away, you could get slightly better than 18" overall. I'll have to consider that.

Curious: any reason now as to why Vox Casters still cost points? Seems like removing that cost could be a small buff for us.

It's 12 inch from Creed, yes. But if the ordered unit is 12 away, then that unit can extend that order to another unit 6 inch away. Giving you effectively an 18 inch range, so the same as a vox caster.

Jarms48 wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
Does anyone else think it's kinda funny that Leman Russ's now have a better save than the super-heavies?

I know, I know, the super-heavies have more wounds ect... still, would it have broken them completely if they had also gotten the 2+?

I have a feeling GW changed the Cult Leman Russ in the upcoming GSC codex to a 2+ save. They gave us that buff early. So none of the other vehicles were even considered.

I have a feeling that since so much in 9th has stupidly strong AP, a Baneblade with a 2+ isn't going to be much of a threat, especially with the smaller boards.

Vox is tricky, I want to like them and take them but they really should just be a mapwide effect, or at least give it a 48" range or something. The cadian vox relic that lets you use it tablewide is about the only time I would take some. Would work really well for outflanking some vets, ccs, and sws across the map without having to give the opponent a free assassinate.

The other issue is that while you can save on voxes by only taking them on a few squads, once your opponent realizes what youre up to theyll just focus down the vox units and youre back to square one.

I recently read again the rules of the Cyclops demolition charge and the Tallarn Strategem, tank order and regimental doctrine especially with an eye on tank orders now being fair game for all vehicles.

Is this here possible:
1. Tallarn Ambush a couple of Cyclopses slightly above 9'' near an interesting enemy target, close enough to receive an order from one of your own tallarn Leman Russ.
2. Order the cyclops to "Get around behind them", moving the cyclops 6'', so its slightly more than 3'' away from the enemy
3. detonate the charge?

I might have missed it, but nothing forbids firing after arriving from ambush right? And the ambush text "counts as having moved it's maximum distance" does not mean that it counts as having advanced, right? And even if it would, that would change the Tallarn Cyclops charges type from heavy to assault due to the Tallarn doctrine, so still enable it to fire...

If that is correct it might be an interesting tool to make the Cyclops more usable. Or at least force a cautious enemy to more intense screening than he would have done otherwise

A unit arriving from reinforcements can never move again in a turn, iirc.

OK, that clears that up, thanks. Would have been fun though...

Question regarding orders with the most recent rules update.

I understand that an order issued to a unit now also applies to other units within 6"if you choose so.

The rules used to be that a unit can only be affected by one order per turn/phase. Is this still the case?

In other words, if I have an officer with 2 squads within 6" can I issue FRFSRF to one of them and take aim to the other and have both squads under both orders?

 DoctorDanny wrote:
Question regarding orders with the most recent rules update.

I understand that an order issued to a unit now also applies to other units within 6"if you choose so.

The rules used to be that a unit can only be affected by one order per turn/phase. Is this still the case?

In other words, if I have an officer with 2 squads within 6" can I issue FRFSRF to one of them and take aim to the other and have both squads under both orders?

No, as a unit may still only be issued one order per turn (and the aura spreading specifically says "the order may be issued to units within 6" or whatever).

There are relics like the Laurels of Command however that can allow this style of combo to work.

Hey all. I thought it might be best to post here for some answers from fellow Imperial Guard players!

I've recently looked at getting back into the hobby and one of the armies that I've always wanted to work on was a pure Militarum Tempestus army (about 1000 - 1500pts) and also Death Korps of Krieg.

One thing that I've read is the Specialist Detachments becoming Legends in 9th ed? (reading from 1d4chan)- so does this mean pure Tempestus Scions are no longer an official thing?

Also, is it possible to incorporate the models from the Kill Team box for DKoK into an actual army (non-FW)? Since it seems like they only have one unit released in plastic from what I can see...

Thanks all!

Sikplex wrote:
Hey all. I thought it might be best to post here for some answers from fellow Imperial Guard players!

I've recently looked at getting back into the hobby and one of the armies that I've always wanted to work on was a pure Militarum Tempestus army (about 1000 - 1500pts) and also Death Korps of Krieg.

One thing that I've read is the Specialist Detachments becoming Legends in 9th ed? (reading from 1d4chan)- so does this mean pure Tempestus Scions are no longer an official thing?

Also, is it possible to incorporate the models from the Kill Team box for DKoK into an actual army (non-FW)? Since it seems like they only have one unit released in plastic from what I can see...

Thanks all!

Specialist detachments would be ones from vigilus supplements in 8e. They are banned from GT mission pack which means in practice most of the games as people default to that mission pack for simplicity.

So pure tempestus scions is valid. Being specific factions isn't specialist detachments. It's stuff like Emperor Wrath Artillery Company for Astra Militarum.

And yes DKoK can be used in DKoK army. Rumour/speculation is more coming in future as plastic but how true that is.

Oh and one thing to keep in mind. GW has been adding drawbacks to new books mixing subfactions. While it's not QUARANTEED you might want to keep in mind you might be losing some power if you mix say AM/DKoK(this might be biggest worry) or AM/Scions(this is lesser worry though still possibility). Mind you there's no hard facts that this WILL happen but in new books mixing subfactions has started to have drawbacks. Marines lose super doctrines, sisters of battle lose sacred rites, necrons lose protocols(though this is pretty tiny).

If you are on fence whether to go for pure or mixed and are happy either way might be reason to stay pure for now. But if you want mix for sure don't let this stop you. (new AM book isn't looking to come in a hurry anyway. Maybe late 2022)

Been a lurking user for a long time soaking up the knowledge and advice of others. Now I feel compelled to post. Where exactly is this orders update to the AM that everybody keeps referring to actually published/located. I have been searching and have been unable to find any source for this.

Regards

The balance dataslate has the orders update. Link is about 1/2 the way down the page. Says download balance dataslate.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/

Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

I don't really play competitively so I've actually got an extra points to play with. 2 manticores and 3 LRBT in my "relatively" more competitive list so an extra 10 points. My fluffy/fun Tallarn army got 30 extra points.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

My opinion:
Banewolf: as long as it stays 8'', d6, 1 Damage I don't really see -10 points as enough to bring it instead of a Hellhound. Maybe if one of those stats increased it would have a role.
Deathstrike: hmm... maybe? If you put it in reserves, bring it turn 3 you have a 33% chance of getting it off unmolested. But I'm not sure if that is worth it. A pitty that it doesn't explode as easy anymore, elsewise it could serve as some kind of superheavy Cyclops demolition charge for 120 points.
Manticore: I guess +10 points won't stop it being so extremely useful as it is.
LRBT: that's a nice one I think, but no general gamechanger. I don't think this change will drastically change the distribution of heavy support slots between LRBT and other options like Manticores, nor will it make people suddenly take much more basic LRBTs insteat of TCs.

So my personal overall judgement: I don't see much new strategic value coming out of these changes. Maybe (and only maybe) one might see the odd Deathstrike now and then.

I'm still amazed that the superheavy tanks didn't see ANY points adjustment...

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

My opinion:
Banewolf: as long as it stays 8'', d6, 1 Damage I don't really see -10 points as enough to bring it instead of a Hellhound. Maybe if one of those stats increased it would have a role.

Agree 100%.

Deathstrike: hmm... maybe? If you put it in reserves, bring it turn 3 you have a 33% chance of getting it off unmolested. But I'm not sure if that is worth it. A pitty that it doesn't explode as easy anymore, elsewise it could serve as some kind of superheavy Cyclops demolition charge for 120 points.

Only 33% chance of firing, while spending CP to put it in reserves, then probably another CP to improve its pityful missile. Even with Catachan or spotter details, this poor tank only does 5-6 mortal wounds on average. That all it is capable. Compare that to smites from an average psyker, this is pathetic. I would not even take it at its new cost, a Basilisk is a much better buy.

Manticore: I guess +10 points won't stop it being so extremely useful as it is.

I will still field my only painted Manticore, but would probably resell the other ones. The manticore is still an unavoidable asset, but I would probably field a basilisk as second HS tank instead, to save some points.

LRBT: that's a nice one I think, but no general gamechanger. I don't think this change will drastically change the distribution of heavy support slots between LRBT and other options like Manticores, nor will it make people suddenly take much more basic LRBTs insteat of TCs. So my personal overall judgement: I don't see much new strategic value coming out of these changes. Maybe (and only maybe) one might see the odd Deathstrike now and then.

My fireball demolishers LRBT went down to 180 points, I'm quite pleased.

Apart from that, well, let's say I was prepared to be disappointed. No rebates for heavy weapons squads, wyverns, hydras, commissars, chimeras, ratlings, baneblades variants, and the list goes on...
Very little significant tweaks were done. More than being bottom tier in competitive games, what is more annoying is not being able to put a fight in friendlier games.

 Ravajaxe wrote:


Apart from that, well, let's say I was prepared to be disappointed. No rebates for heavy weapons squads, wyverns, hydras, commissars, chimeras, ratlings, baneblades variants, and the list goes on...
Very little significant tweaks were done. More than being bottom tier in competitive games, what is more annoying is not being able to put a fight in friendlier games.

Yeah, I've only won one game in my current crusade. Out of 5-6 games now.

Sadly it won't matter much as I'm moving in the next few months.

Deathstrikes in competitive matches...lol. That thing could cost just 60 points and I still wouldn't take one. They are probably the most worthless unit in the entire game; a 30-point price decrease just ain't gonna fix that.

As for the decrease on Leman Russes, that combined with the price bump on Manticores could make it worthwhile to take Demolisher Russes as our HS choices, rather than multiple Manticores. I still don't think Bassys are going to take over for Manticores though.

I think we can all agree that the Deathstrike needs a rework. The best idea I've heard is that it still gets one shot, but you can fire it whenever you want. The caveat is, the later in the game you fire it, the more damage it does.

Ex. Turn 1 3D6 attacks, hits are mortals. Every turn after the first you get +4/5 attacks.

Maybe give it a rule so that rather than sometimes including nearby units, the damage spills to the nearest enemy unit if the target unit is killed. If you get high enough damage you could kill a screening squad and the character behind it. Would be hilarious into bodyguard units.

More damage in later turns (even if it would work from a gameistic point of view) would be a bit weird I think. Why does an ICBM do more damage when you have more time aiming it at something closeby?

It remains a weird unit I think. If one wants to keep it fluffy (as you should usually not have an ICBM that close to the front if everything went as you wished for as general) I could imagine it giving VP instead of making damage if you can successfully fire it, simulating that the opponents force was unable to keep you from taking out a command bunker some hundred miles behind the lines. And besides that having a high chance of a catastrophic explosion if it is destroyed (as it's basically a giant heap of explosives and fuel). So in game you could at least use it as some kind of suicide unit.

I don't claim that this would make it competetive or even just worth it's points in casual games, just that this would stick closer to what the Deathstrike should be lorewise.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Pretty much. It was a joke.

Thank you kindly for the response. Much appreciated.

EmperorForearm wrote:
The balance dataslate has the orders update. Link is about 1/2 the way down the page. Says download balance dataslate.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/

I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

Well, Missile Launchers would be the more "Tallarn" option lore-wise, but I suppose it would depend on what kind of theme you're trying to do with your force (ie. armored, raiding, line, etc).

 Salted Diamond wrote:
I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

Take missile launchers without hesitation. The low AP on low rate of fire autocannons is not a helpful combo at all. You would be hampered against any tough troops, any vehicles, monsters, MEQ, tau suits... and the list goes on. Plus all these abilities that ignore AP-1 would drive you mad. On the other hand, the AP-2 of missile launchers will at least significatively reduce the amount of succesful armor saves. Most vehicles and monsters will save on 5+ which will fail more often than not. Another advantage missile launcher has is its strenght that crosses an important wounding step : wounding T4 on 2+ and most monsters / vehicles on 3+ will be valuable.

There is another detail to think of, when you are giving heavy weapons to your squads : the drawback of having to move your squad. Moving is something that you may be forced to do in order to avoid a threat, aquire line of sight, or get better positioning to objective markers... Now in 9th, typically, you should feel free to move your infantry squads at will. Having a costly heavy weapon that wants to stand still is contradictory to this need. So, for a heavy weapon upgrade being worth of choosing the stand still option, it needs to have a significatively strong profile to compensate. So from my experience, I see no value in giving weak heavy weapons profiles in infantry squads : mortars, heavy bolters, autocannons are not worth taking versus the need to move the squads. Laser cannons and missile launchers have at least a profile that may be worth keeping your squad immobile, sometimes.

Personally I had 3 converted valhallan autocannon teams, made out of plastic autocannons and more reasonably sized tubing for the barrels. These were nice conversions. But since 8th dropped, I scapped them, rolled back to heavy bolters, and never regretted this decision. 9th added 2 damage to heavy bolters on top of that. I sometime play them as cheap heavy weapons squads. Autocannons are just plain bad since they redone the weapons profiles.

As much as I like equipping my squads with heavy weapons in friendly games, I lean more and more towards a more mobile and simpler approach. So I'm just taking a melta gun, and a vox caster.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
I want to include a heavy weapon in 2 infantry squads that are tasked with sitting on home objective. This is for my Tallarn list so I have autocannons and missile launchers available to go with their plasma guns. While it's a more fun list, which would be the better option for them? While I know they are not really worth it, It's mostly for modeling purposes and personal "rule-of-cool" as I have the metal Tallarn models.

Take missile launchers without hesitation. The low AP on low rate of fire autocannons is not a helpful combo at all. You would be hampered against any tough troops, any vehicles, monsters, MEQ, tau suits... and the list goes on. Plus all these abilities that ignore AP-1 would drive you mad. On the other hand, the AP-2 of missile launchers will at least significatively reduce the amount of succesful armor saves. Most vehicles and monsters will save on 5+ which will fail more often than not. Another advantage missile launcher has is its strenght that crosses an important wounding step : wounding T4 on 2+ and most monsters / vehicles on 3+ will be valuable.

There is another detail to think of, when you are giving heavy weapons to your squads : the drawback of having to move your squad. Moving is something that you may be forced to do in order to avoid a threat, aquire line of sight, or get better positioning to objective markers... Now in 9th, typically, you should feel free to move your infantry squads at will. Having a costly heavy weapon that wants to stand still is contradictory to this need. So, for a heavy weapon upgrade being worth of choosing the stand still option, it needs to have a significatively strong profile to compensate. So from my experience, I see no value in giving weak heavy weapons profiles in infantry squads : mortars, heavy bolters, autocannons are not worth taking versus the need to move the squads. Laser cannons and missile launchers have at least a profile that may be worth keeping your squad immobile, sometimes.

Personally I had 3 converted valhallan autocannon teams, made out of plastic autocannons and more reasonably sized tubing for the barrels. These were nice conversions. But since 8th dropped, I scapped them, rolled back to heavy bolters, and never regretted this decision. 9th added 2 damage to heavy bolters on top of that. I sometime play them as cheap heavy weapons squads. Autocannons are just plain bad since they redone the weapons profiles.

As much as I like equipping my squads with heavy weapons in friendly games, I lean more and more towards a more mobile and simpler approach. So I'm just taking a melta gun, and a vox caster.

I fully agree with all points. The 2 squads that will get these will be non-moving home objective campers/help guard the Artillery so sitting still is not a big issue. I have 6 more with plasma or melta (plus 20 Tallarn rough riders) for being mobile.

How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?

Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.

Tallonian4th wrote:
Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.

It's so freaking weird.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

Tallonian4th wrote:
Vet Guard are a separate KT faction from normal Guard/Scions. They have more equipment and special rules attuned for KT. The new KT plastic uses the new Krieg to represent them but you can do it with any Guard models. Nice to hear they won the competition even if it is odd to think of a Guard 'elite' force being the best of it's type.

It's so freaking weird.

I wouldn't say weird. It's just like taking a Veteran Squad instead of an Infantry Squad.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?

I can't swear to it, but I don't think any pure Guard players cracked the top 100 at LVO. A couple of Guard/Custodes soup lists did though.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Honestly doesnt help us in any way and really doesnt even matter as far as making us worse. As weve seen by now, GW prints these things months in advance, so GW was going off of balance data from 4 to 5 months ago at least. My theory is we were originally supposed to get a new codex shortly after CA dropped, but due to shipping delays we're much farther out than we're supposed to be. About the only world these changes make sense in is if someone at GW said "eh, their book comes out in a month. Who cares?"

Instead we're gonna be stuck with these points till summer at least. I hate to say it but IG is functionally dead in the water competitively. Ive seen some folks do decent at smaller events but 9th edition is just built from the ground up to screw us over now. A single faction secondary that rewards us for killing things isnt changing that, and the mission changes definitely wont help given chimeras are back to giving up 2 vp for the vehicle secondary again. Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.

We dont have durable obsec. We dont have fast melee. Our armies bleed VP's at an insane rate. We dont have an easily scored secondary. It goes on and on. Until we get some fundamental changed to our army I dont see pts changes mattering without just cutting our pts in half or something.

Agreed. I'm starting to accept my role as spoiler in my current crusade. Everyone else either has their 9th ed codex or will soon have one. Followed all of the advice I received online and have just got tanks, bullgryns, Infantry, and just three supporting characters.

Feels bad when you can't even compete in narrative events.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Pretty much. It was a joke.

Agreed. All the Superheavies need a MASSIVE points adjustment....as in downward. G-dubs really missed the boat on making these guys more competitive. I’ll never understand why they didn’t give them a 2+ save, but Leman Russ tanks do. I get they don’t need an invulnerable save, but make them worth bringing to the table.

They could drop the Deathstrike down 100pts and I still wouldn’t take them. They need a re-write period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.

I laughed at this. But then I cried when that name is spoken...if I only had the time to play as much as he does...

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
How, of the 12 players in the LVO that played Guard, faired?

I heard Vet Guard (Which I don't understand the difference between just Guard) won the KT?

I can't swear to it, but I don't think any pure Guard players cracked the top 100 at LVO. A couple of Guard/Custodes soup lists did though.

Sounds about right.

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:
Agreed. All the Superheavies need a MASSIVE points adjustment....as in downward. G-dubs really missed the boat on making these guys more competitive. I’ll never understand why they didn’t give them a 2+ save, but Leman Russ tanks do. I get they don’t need an invulnerable save, but make them worth bringing to the table.

I made a list of all vehicles that now need a 2+ save because of the Russ change.

Heavy Support:
- Colossus Bombard
- Malcador
- Malcador Annihilator
- Malcador Defender
- Malcador Infernus
- Thunderer
- Valdor Tank Hunter

Lord of War:
- Baneblade
- Banehammer
- Banesword
- Doomhammer
- Hellhammer
- Shadowsword
- Stormlord
- Stormsword
- Crassus
- Macharius
- Macharius Vanquisher
- Macharius Vulcan
- Minotaur
- Praetor
- Stormblade

Legends:
- Atlas Recovery Tank
- Stygies Destroyer Tank Hunter
- Arkurian Stormhammer
- Dominus Armoured Siege Bombard
- Gorgon Heavy Transport
- Macharius Omega

One good thing about this is you dyed in the wool IG players will want to be buying anything you think is neat/useful NOW. Take a look at tau for example. People were selling used lots for rock bottom prices 3 months ago, now theyre all way up. Anytime your army sucks is the best time to get in and buy bread and butter stuff like Russes or guardsmen. You can score good used lots cheap right now. I know Ive been snapping up plastic krieg kits cheap that way lately.

All we can really do now is bide our time, read up on other codexes, and make sure our stuff is painted and ready whenever our book does drop. Not really a "tactics" thing but as you play this game over the years its a good trick to build up a big army cheap. If youre not picky on used lots anyways.

Quik question chaps: can our vehicles advance and pop smoke? here's the wording: 'Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers'

 PaddyMick wrote:
Quik question chaps: can our vehicles advance and pop smoke? here's the wording: 'Once per game, instead of shooting any weapons in the Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers'

They Can!

BRB P:361 in the Rare Rules under "Non-Shooting Abilities"

I imagine that it'll become a stratagem whenever the 9th edition book finally comes though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I imagine that it'll become a stratagem whenever the 9th edition book finally comes though.

Aye until then though I am going to enjoy pushing 6 double heavy flamer chimeras up turn one and declaring they all pop smoke for no cp!

So, I took a 2k guard list to a 30 man tournament this weekend and here's some observations.

I took 8 russes (4 demolishers (2 tank commanders), 1 plasmababy and three regular tanks), 3 squads of barebones infantry, two valkyries and two armoured sentinels.

People sure as what weren't expecting 8 leman Russes against them, so the element of surprise was on our side at least.

I managed to put up quite decent fights against my three opponents, GK, AdMech and Custodes. I even managed to win against the AdMech player. The two losses were both with a respectable number of VP (55 and 64). Ended up 18th our of 30 players.

Observations:
-T8, 2+ save and 12/14 wounds is nice, but everybody has AP4 it seems. I was able to keep my tanks alive for quite some time but I misused the 'take cover´ strategem onthem it seems. Apparently it can only be used on infantry. Russes really need a boost in survivability (-1 damage or perhaps even half damage).
I made another mistake with the 'hail of fire' strategem. It can only be used on vehicles and that should probably change as well.

The tanks really need to be able to shoot twice in order to have any impact on the enemy ranks, but that limits you to 5" movement. That in turn makes it hard to reach the objectives.

I took the tank ace trait ́Steel commander' on both my tank commanders and the ability to reroll 1s on four tanks really adds to your firepower.

Valkyries are a great way to get engage on all fronts and eventhough they die quickly they can then leave behind an infantry squad to prolong that engage for another turn. They're too expensive for what they bring to the table though as their firepower is negligable.

I usualy took scout sentinels for the extra move, but I was really happy with the armoured ones. T6, 6W and a 3+ make them surprisingly survivable and forces the opponent to waste shots on them that could have gone into your ranks as well.

Good to hear of your experience Doc, thanks. With all the killing power out there now, I have a hard time placing my faith in tanks. Like you said, lots of AP to contend with.
Agee about the amoured sentinels, they seem quite survivable, especially with the half damage strat. I like them with heavy flamers, as a roadblock, popping smoke on turn 1.

I'll be running a horde style list with no unit above 100 points at an RTT in a couple of weeks. it's krieg so the star unit will be the combat engineers, and i'm hoping the hades drills can get stuck into combat. I'm not keen on death riders right now as cavalry seems to be ovverlooked as a keyword, but i'll be taking 3 DR commanders as mobile order givers who can get stuck in if needed.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Are fellow guard commanders so baffled by the Chapter Approved points update for us, that no one dares to speak about it ?
To sum up :
Banewolf variant -10
Deathstrike -30
Manticore +10
Basic LRBT -10

Honestly doesnt help us in any way and really doesnt even matter as far as making us worse. As weve seen by now, GW prints these things months in advance, so GW was going off of balance data from 4 to 5 months ago at least. My theory is we were originally supposed to get a new codex shortly after CA dropped, but due to shipping delays we're much farther out than we're supposed to be. About the only world these changes make sense in is if someone at GW said "eh, their book comes out in a month. Who cares?"

Instead we're gonna be stuck with these points till summer at least. I hate to say it but IG is functionally dead in the water competitively. Ive seen some folks do decent at smaller events but 9th edition is just built from the ground up to screw us over now. A single faction secondary that rewards us for killing things isnt changing that, and the mission changes definitely wont help given chimeras are back to giving up 2 vp for the vehicle secondary again. Other than providing specific tools to other armies via allies, I just dont see us making it to top tables unless Siegler decides to take pity on us.

We dont have durable obsec. We dont have fast melee. Our armies bleed VP's at an insane rate. We dont have an easily scored secondary. It goes on and on. Until we get some fundamental changed to our army I dont see pts changes mattering without just cutting our pts in half or something.

Come October it will be 5 years since our last codex.

Over roughly the same time period (July 2017) Space Marines have had THREE Codexes.

This coming Saturday I'll be going up against a buddy who has both a Necron and Tau Army. I'm wanting to pull out all the stops in case of Tau.

I'm guessing the best single Detachment we can do is Cadian with Pask, 2 Tank Commanders (1 relic battlecannon, 1 demolisher), 2 Full Payload Manticores, 120 Whiteshields Conscripts, Bullgryns + Astropath, and two Platoon Commanders?

Is it worth dropping anything for a Scion Detachment?

Arc, I'd think about not taking full payload (at least not twice) and taking a Steel Commander instead to issue more tank orders. The ability to reroll 1s is a great asset on demolishers.

I'm interested in how the army plays next saturday. The huge blob of conscripts looks like a big gamble to be honest. I'd love to hear how effective they were. I've reached a point where I use my infantry for backfield objective holding only. I sometimes even forgo shooting with them as the lasguns are completely irrelevant against most competetive lists.

 DoctorDanny wrote:
Arc, I'd think about not taking full payload (at least not twice) and taking a Steel Commander instead to issue more tank orders. The ability to reroll 1s is a great asset on demolishers.

I'm interested in how the army plays next saturday. The huge blob of conscripts looks like a big gamble to be honest. I'd love to hear how effective they were. I've reached a point where I use my infantry for backfield objective holding only. I sometimes even forgo shooting with them as the lasguns are completely irrelevant against most competetive lists.

All three russes I was wanting to take would be Tank Commanders, one being Pask, so I'm not seeing the need for the extra orders?

Unless you think I should downgrade one and/or scrounge some points to turn one of the Manticores into a regular Demolisher Russ.

Maxzero wrote:

Come October it will be 5 years since our last codex.

Over roughly the same time period (July 2017) Space Marines have had THREE Codexes.

It won't be the longest since we had a codex. From memory the gap between our 3.5 edition and 5th edition codex was 6 years.

I'm just hoping our next codex is good. I've seen some people on reddit say they've spoken to playtesters. Who apparently think the next codex is very vehicle focused and underwhelming. That was back in November. So hopefully we've gotten better since then.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 DoctorDanny wrote:
Arc, I'd think about not taking full payload (at least not twice) and taking a Steel Commander instead to issue more tank orders. The ability to reroll 1s is a great asset on demolishers.

I'm interested in how the army plays next saturday. The huge blob of conscripts looks like a big gamble to be honest. I'd love to hear how effective they were. I've reached a point where I use my infantry for backfield objective holding only. I sometimes even forgo shooting with them as the lasguns are completely irrelevant against most competetive lists.

All three russes I was wanting to take would be Tank Commanders, one being Pask, so I'm not seeing the need for the extra orders?

Unless you think I should downgrade one and/or scrounge some points to turn one of the Manticores into a regular Demolisher Russ.

Sorry, you're right. I think I assumed more leman russes.

Jarms48 wrote:

Maxzero wrote:

Come October it will be 5 years since our last codex.

Over roughly the same time period (July 2017) Space Marines have had THREE Codexes.

It won't be the longest since we had a codex. From memory the gap between our 3.5 edition and 5th edition codex was 6 years.

I'm just hoping our next codex is good. I've seen some people on reddit say they've spoken to playtesters. Who apparently think the next codex is very vehicle focused and underwhelming. That was back in November. So hopefully we've gotten better since then.

Nice to see some info on our upcoming V9 codex, it's not the best news though. Being forced to play a vehicle heavy army in a ruleset where vehicles are weak, leads to this, so no surprise. I am prepared to be underwhelmed, given that Robin Cruddace is still heading the rules studio. He was the dude responsible for driving the Guard into an army heavily reliant on tanks in V5 and forward. Remember "leafblower lists" chimera spam and so on... If you compare recent IG codexes to what we had in V3.5, this is obvious. The V3.5 codex (from Andy Champers and Pete Haines) gave us lot of flavor. It gave us an army in which the infantry component was interesting and the very basis of list construction.

By the way, the gap between V3.5 and V5 IG codexes was not horrible (september 2003 - may 2009) : 5 years and 8 months, seems long now, but by the publishing rate of the era, it was barely above average.
Then we had the V6 codex (april 2014) which gap from previous was 4 years and 11 months, in a time when things get significatively accelerated. It really felt long, and the book appeared only at the very end of V6. And on top of that, we had no codex in the crazy power-creep era that was 7th edition. Astra Militarum felt outclassed not long after this V6 codex dropped. We are back in this situation now.

Jarms48 wrote:
...So hopefully...

Hope is the first step etc.

Considering IG "Heavy" vehicles cost a fraction of what other faction "Heavy" vehicles cost, I don't really see GW going big on making the LR a major meta shaker. I do wonder if they will follow their trend and try and hyper focus on small infantry combat, and buff things like Chimeras, HWTs, and SWS. It would be cool to suddenly see people rushing to use Chimera's to flood the board with 4 squads per truck. Just give them the ability to field a whole platoon per Chimera, and give it a Combat Deployment rule. Hey presto, front line in a jiffy. Now eat a 100 gallons of S3 laser death you stupid xenos.

Related to Chimeras, I'm a bit out of touch with both transports and 9th edition, but...

In a 'Militarum Tempestus' detachment, I can't take Chimeras, because they don't have the militarum tempestus keyword.

I can take Chimeras in my other detachment.

Can my Militarum Tempestus go in then Chimera from the other detachment? Can they deploy inside it or go in reserves with it, or no?

I would say yes to the three answers.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering IG "Heavy" vehicles cost a fraction of what other faction "Heavy" vehicles cost, I don't really see GW going big on making the LR a major meta shaker.

The new meta shakers will be the upcoming Kasrkins and whatever the new tank will be called. The Kasrkins will basically be our Skitarii Rangers/Vanguards. Probably start off as 8 points, Scion statlines and equipment, perhaps no aerial drop and can benefit from <Regiment> doctrines.

As for the new tank, it'll be heavily pushed in my opinion. GW will make it better than the Russ, Malcador, Macharius, and Baneblade.

 ph34r wrote:
Related to Chimeras, I'm a bit out of touch with both transports and 9th edition, but...

In a 'Militarum Tempestus' detachment, I can't take Chimeras, because they don't have the militarum tempestus keyword.

I can take Chimeras in my other detachment.

Can my Militarum Tempestus go in then Chimera from the other detachment? Can they deploy inside it or go in reserves with it, or no?

Yep scions have the right keywords to go in any chimera: ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY

Jarms48 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering IG "Heavy" vehicles cost a fraction of what other faction "Heavy" vehicles cost, I don't really see GW going big on making the LR a major meta shaker.

The new meta shakers will be the upcoming Kasrkins and whatever the new tank will be called. The Kasrkins will basically be our Skitarii Rangers/Vanguards. Probably start off as 8 points, Scion statlines and equipment, perhaps no aerial drop and can benefit from <Regiment> doctrines.

As for the new tank, it'll be heavily pushed in my opinion. GW will make it better than the Russ, Malcador, Macharius, and Baneblade.

So what you're saying is, there will be good deals on eBay for the Russ, Malcador, macharius, and Baneblade variants?

All joking aside, at this point, I'm up for anything to bring us at least to the middle of the pack.

Hey everyone! Not an IG player here (though I do have a small force of Guardsmen as a PDF for narrative and fluff reasons) but I wanted to ask a few questions!

I happen to be playing against someone soon (somewhat of a newer player, only a few games under their belt) bringing a semi-competitive list to help him learn the newer War Zone Nachmund missions more and it looks from his list that he is bringing 2 FP Manticores of course and a psyker with a big squad of Bullgryn to get psychic barrier off too.

I just wanted to make absolutely certain that I am understanding everything correctly since I haven't played against Guard since like pre-Psychic Awakening 8th. Even though the Tank Ace strat can only be used once per battle, he is allowed to bring 2 Full Payload Manticores because of something I probably don't fully understand correct? Like an extra warlord trait strat or something?

Also, am I correct in understanding that the Bullgryns will have an effective 1+/3++ save (I believe they will have a mix of shields) if Psychic Barrier goes off?

Please just let me know! He is still a newer player so I want to make sure that he's running the list correctly. Supposedly he took this list to a local tourney and did okay with it, so I am sure it's fine, but just in case something got missed I want to make sure we are playing correctly! Thanks!

Hello

I just wanted to make absolutely certain that I am understanding everything correctly since I haven't played against Guard since like pre-Psychic Awakening 8th. Even though the Tank Ace strat can only be used once per battle, he is allowed to bring 2 Full Payload Manticores because of something I probably don't fully understand correct? Like an extra warlord trait strat or something?

It is in fact the opposite of an extra warlord trait. One tank ace ability can be obtained by forgoing the warlord trait. Also, a second tank ace ability can be obtained thanks to the tank ace 1 CP stratagem. So it is possible to use either one of these possibilities, or both, to have 1 or 2 tank aces.

Then there is psychic barrier. As of now, it can improve the invulnerable saves by +1, as well as giving equivalent 1+ armour saves to some models (like bullgryns). So your partner is correct here as well. The boost to invulnerable saves will most probably be removed in the V9 Astra Militarum codex, because GW does not want to have better than 4++ invulerable saves running around. But is is still valid as of now.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello

I just wanted to make absolutely certain that I am understanding everything correctly since I haven't played against Guard since like pre-Psychic Awakening 8th. Even though the Tank Ace strat can only be used once per battle, he is allowed to bring 2 Full Payload Manticores because of something I probably don't fully understand correct? Like an extra warlord trait strat or something?

It is in fact the opposite of an extra warlord trait. One tank ace ability can be obtained by forgoing the warlord trait. Also, a second tank ace ability can be obtained thanks to the tank ace 1 CP stratagem. So it is possible to use either one of these possibilities, or both, to have 1 or 2 tank aces.

Then there is psychic barrier. As of now, it can improve the invulnerable saves by +1, as well as giving equivalent 1+ armour saves to some models (like bullgryns). So your partner is correct here as well. The boost to invulnerable saves will most probably be removed in the V9 Astra Militarum codex, because GW does not want to have better than 4++ invulerable saves running around. But is is still valid as of now.

Thank you so much for the response! I checked with him too in order to make sure, but glad to have an extra confirmation of it!

I expect the 3++ to go away too, but I expect them to get something to make up for it. I also expect certain Core interactions to be different, like Tank Commanders only able to give orders to other Core Leman Russ/vehicles and not themselves, while normal commanders can only give orders to Core infantry. I bet many things wil get some kind of glow-up though!

At this point my biggest concern is just all the ignroing LoS stuff being so devastating (mostly referring to Tau and some of the Eldar stuff). I hope that as much as its fluffy to just have Guard Artillery pounding their opponent, GW do their best to reign things in a bit, otherwise the game is just going to devolve into more "bring ignore LoS or else" play. To some degree it is already there. I was watching some of the tier lists from Art of War a few days ago and it was discussed how unhealthy it is for all the top tier factions to be able to interact with lower tier armies while those armies can barely interact with them. Certain Battle Focus strats, ignoring LoS shooting, all of that stuff just results in some real "negative play experiences." I mainly play Sisters and, while the Exorcist really should just be ignoring LoS for free, I am happy we have to pay CP to do it. Feels like there is a balance on it (though not gonna lie 2CP a turn is a steep price to pay most games, wish it just went to 1CP). In an interesting way though, 8th edition Guard may actually be one of the answers thanks to all of their ignore LoS shooting, at least for now! Watch out Tau and Eldar, the Artillery is gonna make you cry (until the Hammerhead survives and hits back of course).

You either need everyone to have it, or have the armies that can bring it paying such a premium that it is barely worth bringing more than one asset. Or there needs to be some compromise in the middle, which GW just aren't too good at.

I might be wrong, but I think you seriously overestimate the effect of Guard artillery there...

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I might be wrong, but I think you seriously overestimate the effect of Guard artillery there...

I just played the IG guy I spoke about above and as an army with very little ignores LoS I watched my entire front line go down to Catachan FP Manticores. A transport and 2 Squads were just decimated despite ignoring or reducing all the AP coming at them. I knew the Demolisher Cannons on the TCs would be rough, and I took both out relatively quickly before they did too much damage, but the Manticores probably would have won him the game had Vahl not tanked about 10 shots from one of them herself and my opponent been a bit more aware of certain consolidation shenanigans that I was able to pull to score some objectives and tie the rest of his vehicles up. The Wyvern, while not brutal, was still just rough as I was consistently eating about 17-20 shots a turn from it. Granted, it was an incredibly friendly game, and we both allowed each other to do certain things out of phase and all the other things that normally happen when you are just trying to talk somebody through their 6th or 7th 2k point game (as I was doing for him). Therefore, it may have not been nearly as bad had I not helped him on certain target priority and all that. Still though, just the consistent weight of dice for 2-3 turns straight was difficult when there was very little I could do other than "roll well."

I am not saying I was a true tactical genius in that game, I definitely made some key mistakes, and so did my opponent, and the game was won or lost on a few important saves and some consolidation moves tying up the tanks by turn 3 on, but those first 2 turns were still nightmarish. I am not saying Guard is OP by a long shot, and I know to have a real chance you have to bring every strong combo in your codex, but knowing that your artillery is almost nothing compared to Tau and Eldar indirect fire right now is just incredibly scary. If I had gone against a heavily ignore LoS focused Tau army instead I may have been tabled by turn 2 despite my best efforts to hide and bring plenty of bodies that ignore most of the AP coming at me. That's really my point here, if your ignore LoS shooting is/can be rough but not game breaking, then the top tier armies that have it are primarily top tier because theirs IS.

Maybe I am overestimating Guard artillery as you say, but I think I am on the right track in saying that its unhealthy for the overall game to be so focused on ignores LoS shooting, especially when all the terrain rules GW has put into place exist to prevent too much shooting overkill in the early turns or a devastating turn 1 alpha strike. I know Custodes can weather it mainly because of their durability and their strats, but Tau are still right there with them, and Eldar/Harlequins are headed up there too. The last thing I want is the game to just devolve into rock-paper-scissors, even on the more casual level. I am happy Tau are getting their time in the sun again, and glad to see Eldar back up there (soon to be top tier again I'm sure) and also that Custodes are back from being low A tier to S tier, but the state of the game at the highest level just resembles a time about 6-7 years ago, in the dark ages at the end of 7th where unless you had a D weapon, you were probably doomed. Many on here probably remember that time well.

Someone call for an earthshaker?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Someone call for an earthshaker?

As an opponent I would take an Earthshaker Cannon or two over Full Payload Manticores anyday!

What about a pair of full payload earthshaker basilisks ?

Just saw the Nids codex leak. Let's get ahead of the curve:

What do we have that can reliably take out 60+ flying t3 w1 obsec infantry? Volume fire of Lasguns? (Infantry Squad lasguns, even whiteshields would be only hitting on 6's).

 Ravajaxe wrote:
What about a pair of full payload earthshaker basilisks ?

Since each one is only getting d6 shots (rolling 2 taking the highest of course and then rerolling because of Catachan if we are using the army I just faced) I would MUCH rather have 2d6 FP shots each turn compared to 4d6! Despite the difference in AP, half as many shots is still half as many shots!

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just saw the Nids codex leak. Let's get ahead of the curve:

What do we have that can reliably take out 60+ flying t3 w1 obsec infantry?

...lay down and cry?

IIRC, that's like the 1 niche Ogryns are good for. Shooting then charging such light targets. Then again, S5 AP1 will be quite effective against them.
Massed Infantry Squad lasguns is probably your best bet.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just saw the Nids codex leak. Let's get ahead of the curve:

What do we have that can reliably take out 60+ flying t3 w1 obsec infantry? Volume fire of Lasguns? (Infantry Squad lasguns, even whiteshields would be only hitting on 6's).

1) Don't overexpose your infantry squads, so that they are still alive to shoot the gargoyles.
2 ) Mortar squads and Wyverns : no LOS strength 4 blasts will tear through them quite reliably.
They are only T:3 6+ save hordes. I would rather be worried by all the walking monsters that just got a hefty boost, including toughness 8 and/or 2+ saves.

I could be wrong, but if the gargoyles have the fly keyword then we can only charge them with valkyries right?

To take out 60+ flying t3 beasties I suppose you'd be looking for blast weapons with a high rate of fire and T4+. So yeah, mortars, wyverns and maybe flamer special weapon squads for the autohits.

 DoctorDanny wrote:
I could be wrong, but if the gargoyles have the fly keyword then we can only charge them with valkyries right?

To take out 60+ flying t3 beasties I suppose you'd be looking for blast weapons with a high rate of fire and T4+. So yeah, mortars, wyverns and maybe flamer special weapon squads for the autohits.

They can be charged by anything; it's AIRCRAFT that can only be charged by models with FLY.

As for what takes them out, the blast weapons and flamers are probably your best bet, but I think a LR Punisher Tank Commander could do some work through sheer rate of fire.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just saw the Nids codex leak. Let's get ahead of the curve:

What do we have that can reliably take out 60+ flying t3 w1 obsec infantry? Volume fire of Lasguns? (Infantry Squad lasguns, even whiteshields would be only hitting on 6's).

Why would you only hit on 6s?

Armageddon pattern Medusa?

I've just picked up an old forgeworld Vanaheim pattern Medusa conversion kit for a song from a rather eclectic vendor (tons of old battlefleet ships and all sorts of old stuff).

Built it up and plan to proxy as a Armageddon Medusa.

Anyone had experience with this unit? Tips, suggestions? I'm planning to field it along side my 2 full payload manticores.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Just saw the Nids codex leak. Let's get ahead of the curve:

What do we have that can reliably take out 60+ flying t3 w1 obsec infantry? Volume fire of Lasguns? (Infantry Squad lasguns, even whiteshields would be only hitting on 6's).

Why would you only hit on 6s?

Haven't seen a unit with fly in my games in ages. Isn't there a to-hit penalty from shooting attacks?

EDIT: D'oh, that's Aircraft. I did say I haven't seen a unit with fly in my games in ages. So that clears that up.

Well, maybe Conscripts could do some work against Gargoyles. Only issue would be getting them in range without getting charged and shredded.

However, Tyranids do have a monster (Malenthrope iirc) with an aura of -1 to-be-hit, and I hear it's pretty good and looking to be a popular choice in the new codex.
So -1 to hit isn't a terrible assumption to make.

If (a very very big if) they should decide to upgrade the Multilaser to having more shots, while increasing the price so that it is the same as HB and HF (I don't know if heavy 5 or heavy 6 would be fairer), the advent of massive numbers of T3 bodies would at least give it a niche use. I heard no rumor about it, I just think it would make sense to bring it in line with the other turret options on the Chimera and "6 S6 D1 no AP shots" sounds more or less fair to me compared to the HBs "3 S5, D1, AP-1 shots".
It would also make the Multilaser Options on the Carnodon suddenly kind of sensible... to handle things like Gargoyles and the like.

on that note: one of the few targets where the Chimeras Lasgun Array might bring down a couple.

Warlord Trait
OLD GRUDGES

After deployment, but before the first battle round begins, choose a unit in your opponent’s army. You can re-roll failed wound rolls for ASTRA MILITARUM units from your army that target the unit you chose whilst they are within 6" of your Warlord.

Does the enemy unit have to be within 6 of the warlord or does the Astra Miltarum unit have to be within 6 to get the re-rolls?

The AM unit has to be within 6" of the warlord to get the rerolls.

By my understanding, if the warlord with OLD GRUDGES is in a transport, then no one gets the buff, not even the transport it is in?

As with nearly all special rules like auras, the source of the buff has to be physically on the board for the special rule to be active. So not transported.

I'm unsere if I understand the "Agent of the Imperium" rule correctly. If my whole army is Imperial Guard and I include an Inquisitor, can I choose a Warlord trait from the Inqisition list for him/her or can those only be chosen when I have a pure Inquisition detachment?

Hi guys, a friend recently dug up about 1500 points worth of old guardsmen, and I am trying to work it into a workable army. I hear Guard aren't in the best place codex-wise at the moment but I'd still like to get something playable out of them to use in my games at home.

Here's what he has, as best as I can tell. Some of these minis are old!

Infantry Squad x50-60, unsure on the exact amount.
Heavy Weapons Squad x3
Ratlings x10
Tank Commander in Leman Russ x1
Basilisk x1
Chimera x1
Colour Sergeant Kell x1
Tech-Priest Enginseer x1
Wyrdvane Psykers x4
Command Squad x4
Company Commander x2
Commissar x1
Lord Commissar x1
Catachan Snipers x3

Any suggestions for a reasonable 1000 point list I can make out of those? Thanks!

The Infantry Squads, Company Commanders, and Tank Commander would be your priority pick, followed by the Basilisk. Even if your Infantry Squads were equipped with Plasmas or Meltas, I don't think those alone will take you to 1000 points. Throw in whatever else you want on top; I'd prioritize the Heavy Weapons Squads (small boost of firepower) and the Wyrdvane Psykers (mortal wounds) but given where we're at right now, there really isn't too much optimizing you can do with what you have.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm unsere if I understand the "Agent of the Imperium" rule correctly. If my whole army is Imperial Guard and I include an Inquisitor, can I choose a Warlord trait from the Inqisition list for him/her or can those only be chosen when I have a pure Inquisition detachment?

anyone can help me with this question?

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm unsere if I understand the "Agent of the Imperium" rule correctly. If my whole army is Imperial Guard and I include an Inquisitor, can I choose a Warlord trait from the Inqisition list for him/her or can those only be chosen when I have a pure Inquisition detachment?

anyone can help me with this question?

You can use the Arbiter of the Emperor's Will Stratagem to give one inquisitor a warlord trait and a relic. I guess you could make him your warlord, but that would mean you can't take a second tank ace or any relics, so I don't think its worth it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/lBLlqvrttJVgyfhC.pdf

So Guard now auto wound on '6' to hit, Infantry Squads get free upgrades and Tank Commanders can order all vehicles.

Some interesting changes.

So it looks like GW noticed what I did during my last Crusade: fully upgrading Infantry Squads for free push their firepower just over the edge to being useful.

Overall? I...don't know what to think. I'm happy that Guard are more viable, but the changes are so drastic that I feel this may hurt the game overall.

(Note, I'm also including the changes to some of the other factions and Special rules for that as well)

We also get an explicit exception to the Indirect Fire nerf as well, which...idk how I feel about that. It's good, but IIRC Crouching Basilisk Hidden Mortars wasn't particularly interesting to play as or against in 8e. Not sure that us being the best at it in 9e is any better.

I do wish they gave infantry a bit more staying power (perhaps reintroducing the cover save order... I want to say it was Take Cover, but that might be the strategem and I can't be bothered to look it up atm). But I look forward to clicking ignore when battlescribe warns me I'm above the points limit lol

So, can anyone do some mathhammering on the new autowound on 6's rule?

The way I see it, it means that 1/6th of your shots will skip the 1/3 chance to wound part and go straight to armour saves against marines.

A squad of FRFSRF guardsmen against SMs:
37 shots on 12", half hit
18 shots mean 3 sixes, that's 3 wounds.
Remaining 15 need 5+ to wound so that's another 5 wounds.

8 wounds on a 3+ save mean about 3 damage on the squad, so one dead marine.

Marines shoot back:
36 bolter shots, 24 hits.
16 wounds 1/3 of them saved.
10 dead guardsmen.

You probably wont be shooting marines with guardsmen most of the time and if you do it will be more than one squad, but the math is still very much against us.

Still figuring out how exactly I feel about these changes. Initial impression?

"Wow, we're so bad GW decided we could get auto wounds on 6 to hit across the army, free upgrades on infantry squads, and ignore the indirect penalties everyone else gets. Thats not good"

Does it buff damage output? Absolutely. But does it help us win games? No, I dont think it does. None of our actual issues have been fixed. We still die quickly, we still dont have a great way to hold an objective, and we still dont have a great answer to fast enemy melee threats.

Im gonna play a game or two and see how it affects the army with my various regiments I have. I think the issue is going to be that even if this turns out to be a massive firepower buff for us, our only real strategy will be to table the opponent as fast as possible then grab objectives at the end.

Id love to be proven wrong. I actually really hope I am, but I dont see it. Some units are going to see more use maybe but I dont see IG sweeping the next tourney.

I am curious to see a Cadian infantry gunline now given all the free stuff you get.

 DoctorDanny wrote:
So, can anyone do some mathhammering on the new autowound on 6's rule?

The way I see it, it means that 1/6th of your shots will skip the 1/3 chance to wound part and go straight to armour saves against marines.

A squad of FRFSRF guardsmen against SMs:
37 shots on 12", half hit
18 shots mean 3 sixes, that's 3 wounds.
Remaining 15 need 5+ to wound so that's another 5 wounds.

8 wounds on a 3+ save mean about 3 damage on the squad, so one dead marine.

Marines shoot back:
36 bolter shots, 24 hits.
16 wounds 1/3 of them saved.
10 dead guardsmen.

You probably wont be shooting marines with guardsmen most of the time and if you do it will be more than one squad, but the math is still very much against us.

36 shots is 6 auto-wounds and 12 hits.
10 wounds total.
3 damage or so dealt to MEQs.

Yeah. Regretting having my travel case with my army packed when I moved. Now it's buried in storage and it'll be at least a month before I can try out a game.

Also, do we know how "10 models, all upgrades free" is going to impact Heavy Weapon Teams? I could see this being a soft-removal of the team as a separate 2w model (which would fix the whole "absurdly easy to wipe with D2 weapons" issue).

I was definitly amused as all my squads just out of optical preference have special weapons, voxes and sometimes heavy weapons and Plasmapistols on the sergants. Free stuff I guess...

Doing some math since my modeling tools are in storage, but it seems like Cadian is going to be the best regiment, for Infantry Squads specifically, to maximize re-rolls to fish for 6's.

Any other regiments that might see heightened play?

Maxzero wrote:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/lBLlqvrttJVgyfhC.pdf

There’s basically only 2 ways to play Guard competitively now:

1) Spam Infantry Squads and get the most out of free upgrades. 18 plasma guns, 18 plasma pistols, 18 power swords, 18 voxes, and 18 lascannons. You end up with about 540 points of free upgrades, after factoring in the increased point cost.
2) Spam Militarum Tempestus Scions as a counter to SM, CSM, and Sisters ignoring AP. As well as benefiting from the auto-wounding 6’s. Lambdan Lions is now the best sub-faction as it completely negates the benefits of Armour of Contempt.

Lambdan Lion's Warlord trait allows to reroll 1s to hit if within 6" of the warlord.

M.

Jarms48 wrote:

Maxzero wrote:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/lBLlqvrttJVgyfhC.pdf

There’s basically only 2 ways to play Guard competitively now:

1) Spam Infantry Squads and get the most out of free upgrades. 18 plasma guns, 18 plasma pistols, 18 power swords, 18 voxes, and 18 lascannons. You end up with about 540 points of free upgrades, after factoring in the increased point cost.
2) Spam Militarum Tempestus Scions as a counter to SM, CSM, and Sisters ignoring AP. As well as benefiting from the auto-wounding 6’s. Lambdan Lions is now the best sub-faction as it completely negates the benefits of Armour of Contempt.

Tanks get the bonus too, don't forget.

Full Payload Manticores, and Battlecannon or Demolisher Russes each get at least 1 auto wound on average. Slight boost, but still.

Also don't forget about the Punisher, the Dakka tank. 40 S5 ap 0 D1 with rerolling ones, plus 9 Heavy Bolter shots will certainly put out a lot of auto wounds.

Has there been official word from GW regarding whether or not the emperor applies to militarum tempestus? RAW it shouldn't because they don't have the <regiment> keyword (which is why we're able to take them still in the first place). But I could see that being an accidental oversight (albeit a pretty daft one that should have been caught during review).

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Has there been official word from GW regarding whether or not the emperor applies to militarum tempestus? RAW it shouldn't because they don't have the <regiment> keyword (which is why we're able to take them still in the first place). But I could see that being an accidental oversight (albeit a pretty daft one that should have been caught during review).

This is incorrect, Scions have Militarum Tempestus as their Regiment keyword. Otherwise you can’t order them.

Jarms48 wrote:


This is incorrect, Scions have Militarum Tempestus as their Regiment keyword. Otherwise you can’t order them.

Are you allowed to order them with a company commander? I've always used a tempestor prime for that (not that it would make a difference to me as I use a tempestus drop troops detachment so the tempestor prime drops in with them).

Edit:
For those reading along, wahapedia confirms the militarum tempestus counts as its <regiment>
https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k9ed/factions/astra-militarum/#REGIMENT-

Also, based on my reading of voice of command, orders from militarum tempestus units have to come from a unit that is also militarum tempestus, so I've been playing it correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So does including militarum tempestus in your army alongside <regiment> units prevent hammer of the emperor from applying?

Reading the rules on militarum tempestus, it just says that it doesn't prevent the nontempestus units from getting regimental doctrines, but hammer of the emperor is a detachment ability. Thoughts?

Yes, taking Scions and Guard now break Hammer of the Emperor. Hammer of the Emperor is an Army Ability, not a Detachment Ability. Just like Marines have Combat Doctrines as a pure army.

The dataslate lists it as a detachment ability (that cares about the whole army lol)... either way, thanks for the help in parsing out the rules

Hammer of the Emperor does not save us, especially when facing the Armour of Contempt change.

I played against two different marine lists this weekend and lost both games, the first was closer but the second was a complete whitewash.

Whilst the lasguns got me a couple extra wounds in both games, it paled in comparison to the loss in effective firepower due to the reduction in penetration for heavier weapons.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Hammer of the Emperor does not save us, especially when facing the Armour of Contempt change.

Completely agree. I wouldn't have minded if it was just AP-1 counts as AP0. Then at least higher AP weapons would have remained good against marines.

Who cares about armor saves? It's Auto-wounding. Taurox Primes now do more damage than LRs.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Who cares about armor saves? It's Auto-wounding. Taurox Primes now do more damage than LRs.

A Taurox Prime, before this dataslate, did the following damage at full wounds to a squad of 5 MEQ:

Autocannons: 1.78
Heavy Stubber: .33
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.78
Storm Bolter: .22, .44 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: 1.30
Gatling Cannon: 2.22
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.36

Not doing Frag because its the Gatling Cannon but worse. After the datalsate, this changes to:

Autocannons: 1.32
Heavy Stubber: .42
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.67
Storm Bolter: .28, .56 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: .97
Gatling Cannon: 2.78
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.07

What do these numbers mean?

Gatling improved by .56 damage per model.
Stubbers and Bolters improved by .03 per shot, for anywhere from .06 to .12 improvement overall.

However, the Volleyguns and Autocannons got worse by .11 and .46 respectively.

So, if you're going MEQ hunting, you'd want to take Volleyguns and the Gatling Cannon. If you close to 24", you used to do 4 damage, enough to kill two MEQ.
Now, you do 4.45 damage, enough to kill two MEQ, and maybe wound another. 11.25% improvement.

This is at band-aid fix at best, IG need a fundamental rewrite from the ground up to deal with how they give up secondaries so easily and their inability to effectively contest mid-board objectives.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Who cares about armor saves? It's Auto-wounding. Taurox Primes now do more damage than LRs.

A Taurox Prime, before this dataslate, did the following damage at full wounds to a squad of 5 MEQ:

Autocannons: 1.78
Heavy Stubber: .33
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.78
Storm Bolter: .22, .44 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: 1.30
Gatling Cannon: 2.22
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.36

Not doing Frag because its the Gatling Cannon but worse. After the datalsate, this changes to:

Autocannons: 1.32
Heavy Stubber: .42
Hot Shot Volleygun: 1.67
Storm Bolter: .28, .56 in Rapid Fire range
Battle Cannon: .97
Gatling Cannon: 2.78
Missile Launcher, Krak: 1.07

What do these numbers mean?

Gatling improved by .56 damage per model.
Stubbers and Bolters improved by .03 per shot, for anywhere from .06 to .12 improvement overall.

However, the Volleyguns and Autocannons got worse by .11 and .46 respectively.

So, if you're going MEQ hunting, you'd want to take Volleyguns and the Gatling Cannon. If you close to 24", you used to do 4 damage, enough to kill two MEQ.
Now, you do 4.45 damage, enough to kill two MEQ, and maybe wound another. 11.25% improvement.

Funny enough, my math (can post if wanted on...Monday?) is indicating that two Gatling Cannon/Volley Gun Taurox Primes get 1.5 more Marine kills than a single Demolisher/Lascannon/Multi-Melta Tank Commander and about 1 more total wound than a Dakka Russ Commander (Punisher+3 Heavy Bolters).

If I recall my previous maths correctly, equivalent points in Infantry Squads (assuming FRFSRF order) with Plasma Gun and Lascannon do as much at 24" range, and significantly more within 12".

Two questions:
- do we have an option to deepstrike (non tempestus) infantry other then the dagger?

- are the special detachments still usable? The Emperors wrath artillery detachment sounds interesting with the extra AP.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Two questions:
- do we have an option to deepstrike (non tempestus) infantry other then the dagger?

- are the special detachments still usable? The Emperors wrath artillery detachment sounds interesting with the extra AP.

I don't know about the first thing; my gut says no, but I could be remembering wrong, as it's been a hot minute since I even opened my AM codex. Valkyries can drop troops in the middle of their move (at a risk to said troops), but I don't think that's what you mean.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

You can always use reserves

Don't know if anyone is interested, but I got bored tonight and, through helping some dude on a reddit post, created the following algorithm to calculate average damage with the new Hammer of the Emperor rule.

Guard Damage Calculation:

Variables (Modifyable based on abilities and Strategems):

Ballistic Skill “BS”: 2+ : 5/6, 3+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 5+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 6+ : 1/6

Wounds Chart “C”, consult the Wounds chart based on Strength of Weapon versus Toughness of target: 2+ : 5/6, 3+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 5+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 6+ : 1/6

Armor Piercing (AP): modifier of Weapon (Always negative)

Armor Save: (AS): Native to target

Saving Throw “S” = AS - AP: 6+ : 5/6, 5+ : 4/6 = 2/3, 4+ : ½, 3+ : 2/6 = 1/3, 2+ : 1/6

Where X is the number of shots:

Hits (H) = X*BS

Auto Wounds (A) = H/6

Wounds (W) = (H-A)*C + A

Failed Saves (F) = W*S

EDIT: Simplified equation with steps:

(EDIT2:Whoops, should be (AS-AP-1)/6. Ex: (3+ -(AP-2)-1)/6 = (3+2-1)/6 = (4/6)=2/3=5+ save

{[(X*BS)-(X*BS)/6]*C+(X*BS)/6}*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

[(X*BS)*(1-1/6)*C+(X*BS)/6]*([AS-AP-1)/6]

(X*BS)*[(5/6)*C+(1/6)]*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

[(X*BS)/6]*(5*C+1)*[(AS-AP-1)/6]

Final Equation: [(X*BS)*(5*C+1)*(AS-AP-1)]/36

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

The GT mission pack that dropped around CA2020, if my Google-fu is harmonious.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

It's getting hard to keep up innit, lotsa stuff out there that crosses the last 2 editions. Reckon it don't matter unless you're playing in a tournament. you can use whatever rules you want. Specialist detachments were cool, hope they make a comeback sometime.

 PaddyMick wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
.

On the second thing, they axed those a while back. RIP relic Battle Cannon...

Wait...they nixed the special detachments? When did that happen (and where for that matter)? My friend and I just finished the first round of a match where I'm running an Emperor's Blade Assault Detachment...is that no longer allowed? What about tempestus drop detachment (which I took in my pre-dataslate list)?

It's getting hard to keep up innit, lotsa stuff out there that crosses the last 2 editions. Reckon it don't matter unless you're playing in a tournament. you can use whatever rules you want. Specialist detachments were cool, hope they make a comeback sometime.

Very true on all counts. It'd be nice to have those abilities all the time (which seems to have happened to some of the specialist detachments from what I've read when looking into this), but having the limitations of not being able to have everything makes it feel more special and flavorful.

Warzone Nachmund, Grand Tournament Pack, "muster armies":

The players cannot include Understrength units in their army, and their army cannot include any Specialist Detachments.

Narrative (Crusade): You cannot use this Requisition to give a CHARACTER a Relic or a Warlord Trait*, and you cannot use Stratagems that upgrade the unit to be part of a Specialist Detachment.

You can probably still use it in "Open Play" LOL.

Well boys, I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that Scions do not benefit from Hammer of the Emperor.

The good news is that they do not prevent anything else from getting it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf

Arcanis161 wrote:
Well boys, I have some good news and some bad news.

The bad news is that Scions do not benefit from Hammer of the Emperor.

The good news is that they do not prevent anything else from getting it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/zNYDiBPKGflEhGZp.pdf

This is indeed very mixed news...

"Let's make it so that one of the few units in the roster that can somewhat reliably make dents in armour doesn't benefit from Hammer of the Emperor - especially now when MEQ-armour stronger!"

*Shrug* Whatever.
IG are so far down the trashbin anyway that even a (on paper) massive buff such as HotE can be "hotpatched" onto the army over night without really changing anything.

"Lack of lethality" is just one of many reasons why they are F-tier, and Scions having access to HotE wouldn't change a thing.

This is what GW should have done with Hammer:

“If every unit in your army has the Astra Militarum keyword, then each time a <Regiment> or <Tempestus Regiment> model from your army makes a ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.”

It makes the army wide check go off the actual army wide keyword, like Adeptus Astartes. Then rewards the “core” choices of the army. Like the buff was intended to do. You also don’t need the additional wording for Advisors and Auxilia, cause they won’t break it anyway on the account of having the Astra Militarum keyword.

Now all 3 methods are viable to play:
- pure Guard
- pure Scion
- mixed

Would have been the best and easiest solution to the issue.

I agree but I would have extended the rule to aux units as well - ogryns need a buff and they just got comparatively worse.

Played with the new buffs for the first time yesterday so thought I'd report my experiences.

Game was 2K against a superfast aspect heavy eldar list with Karandras, the avatar, two fireprisms and loads of spiders/hawks/scorpions/bikes.

Terrain heavy table, hammer and anvil (mission 11 I think) with 4 midfield objectives.

My list was 4 artillery tanks, two Tanks commanders, a hellhound and a couple of scout walkers, 80 infantry, some supprt characters and a unit of 6 bulgryns.

Due to his speed and the midfield objectives I decided I needed to kill his stuff as quick as possible and then score later in the game. I setup with three layers of infantry protecting two hidden blocks of artillery and characters then the other tanks were dotted around in position to move out and attack but pretty well hidden.

He got first turn :-(

Fireprism moved out and managed to ace a russ before moving back out of LOS.
He picked up the two sentinels.
He massacred about 30 infantry in shooting (swooping hawks killed most of two squads on their own).
Karandras and the scorpions butchered another 20 and then tied up my last squad on one side.
The avatar sprinted forward 14"

My turn, most of his stuff was hidden other than Karandras and the scorpions in my lines and the avatar on the approach. If I didn't deal with them I was toast as they could tie up my tanks for victory.

I killed nearly all the scorpions with infantry fire and spare heavy bolters from the tanks.

I used the strat for extra hits on 6's on my demolisher and hit the avatar with that and a load of lascannons - to no appreciable effect - he used a couple of auto saves.

I killed most of the big hawk squad and ended up firing three artillary tanks into karandras just to get the 3 wounds onto him in the shooting phase so I could charge hm with my bulgryns.
I charged in, did the MW strat for 1 damage! He used lghtning fast to give me -1 to hit and I got 7 wounds through but he saved them all using a CP on the way. He hit back dealing 10MW and 7 normal wounds after my saves leaving a single gryn on one W.

We called the game there at the end of round 1. He had two massive melee threats in or near my lines, bikes and spiders nearby and held most of the objectives. On his turn he would kill or tie up most of my army. I had no way of scoring or surviving any of his attacks.

Thoughts: We were playing completely different games.
I was playing a traditional wargame where I had units that could do certain things well and other things badly, I had to negotiate terrain, he could save VS my weapons and I would have to slowly move up the board.

He was playing a game where he could move anywhere he wanted on the board, kill anything he wanted and then move behind cover so he couldn't be shot back.

We both agreed it as a bit pointless. If I had gone first it would certainly have been a better game as I could have shot his most dangerous infantry killers with my artillary and he would have been forced to redeploy his scorpions back a bit.
Even then his sheer killing power and movement abilities would have easily taken it.

Not really sure where they go with guard in the modern game.

Infantry squads used to be a bit of a pain to dig out (at least back in 5th). I think making them more resilient is probably the best way to go (purchasable carapace armor, go to ground order/ability, and adding back some sort of suppressing fire mechanic would go a long way towards that and be very fluffy, but this isn't the fixing guard thread, so I'll leave it there).

My own experience with guard since the dataslate is that they are definitely more capable of killing stuff, but still nowhere near enough to make up for the fragility of their infantry squads. I posted a summary of the first round of my battle in the thread on AoC vs HotE relative power level. But generally speaking, I rolled really well and my craftworld opponent rolled average. The infantry squad I pushed forward to complete two tempest of war secondaries (and promptly forgot to do one) got wiped (still got a chimera there, so hopefully I'll be able to correct my mistake when next we play... it's via TTS, so we saved our game). Either way, it's an improvement, but the bigger thing is it makes me feel like we're not being forgotten (unlike poor chaos demons)

Here is the list I am taking to a local tournament, what do you guys think?


++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [54 PL, -3CP, 985pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [14 PL, 280pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. 2 Plasma Cannons

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 155pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [50 PL, 10CP, 1,015pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

Whiteshields [-1CP]

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Malleus - Warding Incantation, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol, Relic (Cadia): Tactica Pax Cadia, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [3 PL, 50pts]: Psychic Barrier

Tank Commander [12 PL, 245pts]: Heavy Bolter, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters

+ Troops +

Conscripts [7 PL, 150pts]: Whiteshields
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Hot-shot Laspistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 PaddyMick wrote:
I agree but I would have extended the rule to aux units as well - ogryns need a buff and they just got comparatively worse.

I don't disagree, but it doesn't help their melee. Only ranged. So sure, it'll make regular Ogryns shooting more reliable but no-one will still take them.

 CKO wrote:
Here is the list I am taking to a local tournament, what do you guys think?


++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [54 PL, -3CP, 985pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [14 PL, 280pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon
. 2 Multi-meltas

Tank Commander [12 PL, 240pts]: Lascannon, Track guards, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon
. 2 Plasma Cannons

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 155pts]
. Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [9 PL, 155pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [50 PL, 10CP, 1,015pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

Whiteshields [-1CP]

+ Agents of the Imperium +

Inquisitor [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Malleus - Warding Incantation, Ordo Malleus, Psyker

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol, Relic (Cadia): Tactica Pax Cadia, Warlord

Primaris Psyker [3 PL, 50pts]: Psychic Barrier

Tank Commander [12 PL, 245pts]: Heavy Bolter, Track guards, Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
. 2 Heavy Bolters

+ Troops +

Conscripts [7 PL, 150pts]: Whiteshields
. 30x Conscript: 30x Lasgun

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 60pts]
. 5x Guardsman: 5x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Militarum Tempestus Scions [3 PL, 50pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Tempestor: Hot-shot Laspistol, Power sword

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun

Command Squad [2 PL, 65pts]
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 25pts]: Laspistol

++ Total: [104 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I took guard to a tournament twice in the last couple of months. Edit: and ended up somewhere in the lower middle bracket of the scores.
I'd say that you probably do better with sticking to just the spearhead and trying to max it out with demolishers and manticores.
One thing that served my well was giving my two tank comanders both the 'steel commander' tank ace trait in order to give 4 tank orders per turn.
Also, rerolling the number of shots on the tanks is a must, so either take catachan regiment or make a custom regiment with expert gunners and spotter details for 30" demolishers.

Infantry loses you battles IME.

Edit: I played a narrative game against some elite infantry units yesterday. I must say that I was impressed by the 6's autowound rule. Especially with the huge numbers of lasgun shots we can pour out this could be very good indeed. Three infantry squads without orders managed to wipe out 3 GK terminators in one round of shooting, that impressed me (and the GK player) to no end

What secondary missions do you guys take?

 CKO wrote:
What secondary missions do you guys take?

Shadow:
- RND: Most common.
- Raise the Banners: Depends on the mission and opponent.

Battlefield Supremacy:
- Engage on all Fronts: Most common.
- Stranglehold: Depends on the mission and opponent.

The 3rd mission is always the hardest, it's either:
- A mission secondary: Highly mission dependant.
- Psychic Interrogation: If I take psykers and depending on opponent.
- Warp Ritual: As above.
- Assassination/Bring it Down/Abhor the Witch: If I don't have any psykers and the mission secondary is too difficult. Not idea, but basically aim for anything that gives me at least 10VP.

Jarms48 wrote:

 CKO wrote:
What secondary missions do you guys take?

Shadow:
- RND: Most common.
- Raise the Banners: Depends on the mission and opponent.

Battlefield Supremacy:
- Engage on all Fronts: Most common.
- Stranglehold: Depends on the mission and opponent.

The 3rd mission is always the hardest, it's either:
- A mission secondary: Highly mission dependant.
- Psychic Interrogation: If I take psykers and depending on opponent.
- Warp Ritual: As above.
- Assassination/Bring it Down/Abhor the Witch: If I don't have any psykers and the mission secondary is too difficult. Not idea, but basically aim for anything that gives me at least 10VP.

Maybe I am misreading you, but the Mission Secondaries are gone with GT 2022. The Primary now has two parts: the objectives and the extra part (which looks like a Mission Secondary, but its part of the Primary).

You still have to take three Secondaries; two of which must be from the GT2022 Secondaries list. I'm with you on Engage and RND as we usually have plenty of squads (at least at the start). For the Emperor is OK if the enemy offers nothing juicy like Assassinate or Bring it Down to have a decent 3rd choice.

We tend to bleed VPs from any number of Secondaries (No Prisoners, Grind Them Down, Bring it Down, Assassinate), so its tough sledding out there.

With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Dunno. I think that kind of list will be good at killing things for one or two turns and then your opponent gets into your deployment zone and starts teraing through you in combat. Also it doesn't solve the problem of going out there and taking and holding objectives. Maybe you can fend them off and kill enough stuff so you can walk up and max out primary t3 onwards but I'm not so sure.

Our indirect fire didn't get a buff - it just didn't get nerfed. In fact it did get nerfed indirectly thanks to the buffs to power armour. I don't have the answers. I'm inclined towards lots of cheap armour like 150pt demolishers and armoured sentinels, but hesitate since won't people be taking high rend guns to deal with marines? Dunno. We are in a bad spot. I'm just gonna have some fun at my next tourney - I'm taking a goddam malcador infernus

 PaddyMick wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Dunno. I think that kind of list will be good at killing things for one or two turns and then your opponent gets into your deployment zone and starts teraing through you in combat. Also it doesn't solve the problem of going out there and taking and holding objectives. Maybe you can fend them off and kill enough stuff so you can walk up and max out primary t3 onwards but I'm not so sure.

Our indirect fire didn't get a buff - it just didn't get nerfed. In fact it did get nerfed indirectly thanks to the buffs to power armour. I don't have the answers. I'm inclined towards lots of cheap armour like 150pt demolishers and armoured sentinels, but hesitate since won't people be taking high rend guns to deal with marines? Dunno. We are in a bad spot. I'm just gonna have some fun at my next tourney - I'm taking a goddam malcador infernus

Don't forget, HotE also applies to our indirect fire. Not sure if that overcomes the nerf against AoC opponents though.

Arcanis161 wrote:
With the changes from the dataslate, how are people feeling about our indirect options now (minus the obviously good Manticore)?

Someone in my new Gaming group pondered a list focusing on indirect fire, with Wyverns, 2 Full Payload Manticores, and Infantry Squads with Mortars behind a wall of Hellhounds. Thoughts?

Manticore is pretty bad now if you face a lot of armour of contempt factions.

The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

I mean, against armour of contempt they'd be getting a 4+ and a 3+ in cover. A lot of the shots will be bouncing off in that case.

 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

Because against Armour of Contempt it's AP-1. Which is bad. Really bad for the points you pay. It's so bad it only kills .5 more marines than the Basilisk at that point.

Jarms48 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
The manticore doesn't have that low AP, what part makes it so bad against armour of contempt?

Because against Armour of Contempt it's AP-1. Which is bad. Really bad for the points you pay. It's so bad it only kills .5 more marines than the Basilisk at that point.

Would this be an argument for taking Basilisks to save a few points if they are now so close?

Manticore's value has dropped a lot in my eyes because of the durability of power armor in cover is a serious issue. Marines have a 3+ against ap 2 on the first turn now and giving up a command point or a warlord trait to kill 1-2 marines that are in cover isn't worth it. Against marine vehicles we are wounding on 3's and they are saving on 4's, against other popular armies who have a built in -1 to hit like Hareliquinns or things like the Tyranids venomthropes making it harder to even hit.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Would this be an argument for taking Basilisks to save a few points if they are now so close?

It's definitely worth trying. Against non-AoC armies the Manticore is still better, so it really depends on what you see in your local meta.

- Lots of AoC, try 2 Basilisks and use the extra 60 points for another infantry squad or something.
- Little or no AoC, keep the Manticores.

What a strange place Guard are in right now; what a weird meta. Feel like we actually got a nerf, comparatively, overall. We'll see how it shakes out, no doubt there's more unintended consequences of these sweeping changes still to be discovered, but one thing's for sure, they should of called it 'Glass Hammer of the Emperor'.

Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.

Doesn't Full Payload just maximize random damage rolls? Which the Wyvern doesn't have.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Has anyone considered doing pull payload Wyverns? With the 6 to wound plus reroll wounds you're bound to do a big pill of wounds on any target regardless of toughness. couple that with Cadian tank orders and you could realistically see causing 20 wounds on something.

Doesn't Full Payload just maximize random damage rolls? Which the Wyvern doesn't have.

whoooooops! For some reason my brain thought it was maximum shots, not damage.

So that would mean that wyverns could still do some damage at least if you had them with gunners or catachan at least.

Well, for the wyvern you can try "well stocked magasines" : with 4D6 you are almost garanteed to have one or two weak attack dice to reroll. Assuming you did not take Catachan or the gunnery experts special trait. For example, if you play Cadian to take advantage of the loads of special rules from codex and supplements, well, one or two tank ace Wyverns would be an interesting choice. Space marines behind ruins, not in cover would still save on 3+, the high number of shots, the to hit giving auto-wounds then STR:4 with rerolls yields a fair amount of saves.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Well, for the wyvern you can try "well stocked magasines" : with 4D6 you are almost garanteed to have one or two weak attack dice to reroll. Assuming you did not take Catachan or the gunnery experts special trait. For example, if you play Cadian to take advantage of the loads of special rules from codex and supplements, well, one or two tank ace Wyverns would be an interesting choice. Space marines behind ruins, not in cover would still save on 3+, the high number of shots, the to hit giving auto-wounds then STR:4 with rerolls yields a fair amount of saves.

Yes but then you run the numbers for average number of wounds and dead marines, look at the cost of your unit and the cost of the space marines you have killed, and realise why guard have the lowest win rate. Currently 40k with very short distances, high moves, wide choice of units, and relatively easy missions, revolves a lot around damage output for any given points.

Lets be really generous, 4D6, bunch of rules, 8 hits. 1 auto wounds. So that is an average of 6.25 wounds. Marines in cover take on average 1 wound. Marines in open 2 wounds. You cost 135 points. A marine costs 18. For comparison against IG infantry you are getting 3.6 wounds or 4.8 at 5 points each. So 18 or 24 points against its favoured prey.

Against Space Marines, rounding down:

Wyvern: 4d6 shots with 1 reroll: 15 shots, 7 hits, 1 auto wound and 4 regular wounds, versus 3+, that's only 1-2 wound going through (0-1 in cover). Maybe 1 dead marine

3x Heavy Weapons Teams with Mortars: 9d6 shots averages to around 30 shots, 15 hits, 2 Auto Wounds plus 6 regular Wounds = 2-3 failed saves out of cover (1 in cover). 1 dead marine

Manticore: 2d6 shots with a reroll: 8 shots, 4 hits, 1 Auto wound plus 2 Wounds, 1 failed save out of cover (and in cover), so 1 dead marine

Basilisk: best of 2d6 with 1 reroll: 5 shots, 2 hits, two Wounds, 1 failed save in cover, 1-2 out of cover, 1-2 dead Marines

So, none of our indirect fire options are all that great at killing marines at the moment, even with our Auto wound buff and evasion of the indirect fire nerf.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

whoooooops! For some reason my brain thought it was maximum shots, not damage.

So that would mean that wyverns could still do some damage at least if you had them with gunners or catachan at least.

Wyverns get 14 shots on average, with Gunnery Experts that goes up to about 15. You're only going to get 3 autowounds. That's 1 wound off a marine. Then you get 5 regular hits, then you'll only score an extra 3.75 wounds. Now you've only killed 1 marine.

Sadly the Wyvern isn't that great, and the units it was good against for example Orks are T5 now. Which massively reduced its effectiveness.

Several Guard characters are now being discontinued, including Raine from the Black Library.

Well, this guy on youtube says he saw a picture and that we are getting:

- The "Rogal Dorn" battle tank between Leman Russ and Baneblade that we had heard about
- Plastic Kasrkin, which we had also already heard about
- Redone heavy weapon squads? No idea why that needed to happen.
- Redone armored sentinels? Again, no idea why that needed to be a release
- Attillan rough riders, personally I had thought they would drop the hun/mongolian angle but seems like nope, it's staying/back
- New Creed model, that is, Apollino (?) Creed, Creed's daughter
- New Lord Commissar, with power fist and book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIWlYs5e8Sk

If it's 'no models, no rules' then there could be only a couple of regiments in the codex!

Creeeeeeed!

Great, so they are doing essentially what I expected. Forcing Guard back to MSU gameplay. Here's a big tank, here's a new commissar, and here are new HWTs. And a new Sentinel. Go forth to victory and last place in every tournament. Is 10th here yet?

 ph34r wrote:

- The "Rogal Dorn" battle tank between Leman Russ and Baneblade that we had heard about

Sounds like a perfect count-as for my Macharius BT.
Perhaps finally I can field the model without feeling like I'm removing 200 points from my army.

Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?

Might be hyperbole. On the other hand...

It's pretty comparable to a Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon and hull Heavy Bolter, at 150 points. So maybe not 200 points overcosted, but definitely ridiculously overpriced.

Hell, it's even less durable to AP0 weapons than a Leman Russ! Not quite twice as many wounds, but takes twice as much damage.

If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.

I'm talking about the current statline-which is 310 points of fail.

 JNAProductions wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If the rumor of it being T9 and capable of Baneblade levels of shooting, then I'd say 310 is underpriced. However, just to be honest, that was a rumor from a youtuber who somehow found it's way into my suggested videos, and seemed....too far fetched to be anything other than an extremely early leak.

I'm talking about the current statline-which is 310 points of fail.

Oh, apologies. I thought we were talking about the new rumored tank. I got the names mixed up.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?

I was being a tad dramatic, but it essentially costs like 2 LR BT's and is worse in pretty much every way.

It's easily overpriced by at least 100 points though. Probably more.

I'm taking Krieg to a tournament this weekend and I've included a Malcador infernus as a suicidal distraction.

Gone for 3 Punisher TC's for weight of dice vs invulns. Also power armour can't reduce my AP if it's 0

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Several Guard characters are now being discontinued, including Raine from the Black Library.

Creed is rumoured to be returning, I also doubt Yarrick would disappear. The rest are likely to move to Legends


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Huh, the Macharius is that bad for 310 points for it to be 200 overcosted ?

If the standard Russ is actually worth 125 points now, after heavily comparing it to the Dunecrawler. That means a Macharius should be 250 points tops, likely 210 like a Kill Rig. Seeing as 2 Russes gives you 24 T8 2+ saves compared to 22 T8 3+ saves. The 4D6 battle cannon shots compared to 2D6 Macharius battle cannon shots, even if the Macharius one is D6 damage.

Simply Warhammer YouTube video said krieg is rumored to be getting a 10th ed codex. No clue on the reliability (same guy who told us about the russ turret being able to fire out of melee)

The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?

Oh man that would suck, that would mean so many heavy weapons to rebase and would also hint that we may be losing a lot of them. Unless we're going back to the really old heavy weapon team style of the single gun w/gunner and a seperate loader model, in which case Im well ahead of the game with all the old metal heavy weapon teams I have. Maybe its a redone box to give you female heads and a new weapon like a heavy stubber or multilaser. That or we could see IG adopting man portable heavy weapons similar to some of the Necromunda gangs have where theyre smaller and shorter.

Attilan rough riders makes sense if they want a regiment agnostic choice, but that seems really odd when we saw DKOK riders in the ork codex. FW models havent shown up in new art for a while. Perhaps it can make attilans or DKoK, although that seems like itd be tricky to do in a single box. I feel like the attilans are a red herring by GW to catch leakers but could be wrong.

Some of these leaks just sound really odd. The sentinel for example while a bit annoying to build seems an odd choice for a redo, same for the heavy weapons. I cant help but wonder if some of these are fake. Mordian knows his guard so its extremely unlikely he misidentified old models as new ones or something like that.

I will admit, his video is a lot of "Guys I swear I saw this, but I can't show it." Same with Auspex Tactics' vid.

I feel like this is a calculated release/leak by GW, because for some reason all the content creators are under a rather obvious NDA.

I would be okay with the addition of optional single model heavy weapons added to infantry squads... with those heavy weapons dudes being Ogryn!!

I know it's super unlikely... but I want me more ogryn!

Ogyrn with heavy weapons are a thing in the lore. There's specifically made heavy stubbers and autocannons for them. Called Ogryn Proof.

Would be nice if the heavy stubber was buffed to heavy 4 and made a weapon option for them. Autocannon simply made a weapon option for regular Ogryns too would be nice.

Though honestly. All that I expect GW to do with Ogryns is:

Ogryns:
- Statline no change.
- Gets 5+++ save for being really stupid and durable.
- Gets the new Bodyguard ability.
- Ripper Gun melee becomes +1S and 2 Damage.
- Add Big Knife to datasheet. Becomes AP-1, 2 damage, 1 additional attack.

Bullgryn:
- No statline change.
- Gets 5+++ like Ogyrn.
- Gets new Bodyguard ability.
- No change on shields and Grenadier Gauntlet, maybe point drop on Gauntlet armed ones.
- Maul becomes +3S and 3 damage.

Ogryn Bodyguard Removed.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Mordian Glory posted a vid about how he's literally seen pictures of the new kits, and the Sentinel is smaller (?) and that the Creed model doesn't look like creed, might not be Creed.

He also states the HWT is no longer two men per model, it's a single guy, so down to 1 wound?

Whhaaat ? I've heard the video of Mordian Glory, and there is no such thing. He has seen one or a few pictures, with a mix of units, on a table, some new stuff being recognizable. He describes the sentinel as " sleeker ", but not smaller. Unlike the current kit which has a lot of hard edges. The new kit looks more adeptus mechanicus styled, with a single vision slit instead of two. He compares it also to the mechs from the video game " Iron Harvest ". Creed will probably be replaced by his daughter (supposition). The heavy weapons teams are still there, so no one-man heavy weapon. But the weapons have been updated (belt fed beefy heavy bolter, and new autocannon).

Jarms48 wrote:
Ogyrn with heavy weapons are a thing in the lore. There's specifically made heavy stubbers and autocannons for them. Called Ogryn Proof.

Would be nice if the heavy stubber was buffed to heavy 4 and made a weapon option for them. Autocannon simply made a weapon option for regular Ogryns too would be nice.

Though honestly. All that I expect GW to do with Ogryns is:

Ogryns:
- Statline no change.
- Gets 5+++ save for being really stupid and durable.
- Gets the new Bodyguard ability.
- Ripper Gun melee becomes +1S and 2 Damage.
- Add Big Knife to datasheet. Becomes AP-1, 2 damage, 1 additional attack.

Bullgryn:
- No statline change.
- Gets 5+++ like Ogyrn.
- Gets new Bodyguard ability.
- No change on shields and Grenadier Gauntlet, maybe point drop on Gauntlet armed ones.
- Maul becomes +3S and 3 damage.

Ogryn Bodyguard Removed.

I would LOVE to see Ogryns able to equip heavy stubbers, or something akin to a heavy flamer. The Ripper is just, meh.

I don't think the changes to Bullgryns would EVER happen, at least not in this edition. You want them swinging S8 3 damage mauls?

I can see GW completely ignoring both, as heavy infantry don't really seem to be their focus. It's HWTs, Sentinels, a new Guard Squad, maybe a new Character or two, done. Face it, Guard are a fart of an afterthought in this edition.

I would like to see ogryns used in regular infantry squads. Carrying heavy weapons would be cool, but they could also be used as mobile cover. Give infantry squads the option to bring one ogryn with a slabshield for a nice 2+ save.

Might be a bit too much on regular infantry squds now that I reread it, but how about making them an option for veteran squads?

Bullgryns with slabshields have been released in 7th edition codex (well technically the very last 6th codex, a month before 7th) with this kind of weird mobile cover use. Slabshield only gave a meagre +1 save to the bullgryn, but also gave +1 to the cover save of units behind the bullgryn line (thus granting a 4+ cover instead of the regular 5+). But 8-9th editions does not have the rules to support cover mechanics.

Ooh I like the idea of Bullgryn counting as a cover for infantry behind them, even if it probably wouldn’t be very good

The problem with that is if you give that buff to Bullgryns, Ogryns then kinda become useless. Also, how does a Bullgryn provide cover, but not a Dreadnaught, or a Battle Suit, or greater demon? Or a Landraider? This is the point. We cannot "fix" guard without invalidating one of the core mechanics of 9th, which to me sounds fine. Break it, because 10th is less than 6 months away anyway.

But... if the bullgryn was part of the squad you could choose to take your saves (at 2+) on him first.
After he dies the squad reverts back to 5+ then.

Lkte mixed armour saves in a DW killteam or in squads with a couple of stormshields.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem with that is if you give that buff to Bullgryns, Ogryns then kinda become useless.

You mean just like it is now? I can't honestly think of ever having seen regular Ogryn on a table even in casual play, but I've faced Bullgryn multiple times in all three editions I've played. Ogryn are one of those units that needs a complete rewrite; they are just complete cabbage currently.

Unfortunately, Ogryn have almost always been on the unoptimized side of the rules for IG. They always needed some sort of babysitter for Ld (or a Commissar to even go inside a Chimera back in the day), or a priest to buff them in CC. Their guns/CC were only okay back in older editions and they've progressively been outpaced by codex/weapon creep as the years have gone by. Bullgryn as a new unit was definitely an attempt to try and address this by adding new armour/weapons into the mix, but in doing so, as others have mentioned, it just relegated regular Ogryn into more of an aimless role as now they are just a cheaper but less effective version of Bullgryn.

Ogryn really need to be the hammer while Bullgryn are the anvil. With how much damage reduction there is on the table and now AoC, I'm not sure how Ogryn should be doing this while remaining fluffy (i.e. mortal wound spam based on charging/6's to hit maybe, but it would be weird to see). The Ripper Guns need to do more, I could see them being 12" and auto-hitting with flat 3 shots and -1AP.

I would be interested in seeing how a mixed unit would work, but you would need a fundamental rewrite of Ogryn regardless since they would add little to a squad besides being slightly cheaper ablative wounds.

I really don’t want random ogryn in squads aesthetically either, they’re passable when they’re a single squad by themselves but imo they just don’t mix with the guard aesthetic

Anyone want to discuss the Conscript Armies that have been getting to the top of tournaments? I'm not saying Guard are back on top, but If your entire faction' success is tied to a single unit, expect GW to take steps.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I don't think the changes to Bullgryns would EVER happen, at least not in this edition. You want them swinging S8 3 damage mauls?

AP-1 though. Very hard to actually do damage with them, but when they do should hit like a truck. I did mean to put S8 or D3. Not both though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Anyone want to discuss the Conscript Armies that have been getting to the top of tournaments? I'm not saying Guard are back on top, but If your entire faction' success is tied to a single unit, expect GW to take steps.

Best result was the Dallas Open guy. Went 6 - 2 with them. I don't think he made it to the top tables though.

The whole conscript spam situation was bound to happen when they jacked up the Infantry Squad cost again. A 1PPM difference is massive for an army who's only option was already to spam infantry to even have a chance at winning. Just goes to show that free wargear did nothing to help us.

Sort of an inevitable result of the Hammer of the Emperor rule change.

If you only care about 6s to hit, BS doesn't matter. The strength of your weapons doesn't matter. All you need is more bullet.

Thing is, I think GW isn't going the Elite route with AM. I could see Ogryns getting a buff, maybe one of the things you can mix into a basic infantry squad? Give him the ability to tote a free Heavy Stubber or AC, I dunno, a Brag type thing. Takes up the space of a HWT. One or the other in a squad. Both are multi wound Heavy Weapons, but Bullgryns really serve no purpose. Your existing Elite Slots are already dedicated to far more valuable units like Command Squads, SWSs, and such. Make Ogryns into Troops, and give them the ability to mix into Infantry Squads. Bullgryns are maybe an upgrade option? Or Bone'ead?

I can't see GW choosing to mix Auxilia into infantry squads - right back from 2nd edition days when squads appeared (rather than buying model by model as per Rogue Trader), they have stood apart from each other - auxilia were never part of the platoon structure even. I suspect that without a clear way to upgrade Ogryn, they will occupy the same awkward light/midsize slot that a lot of tyranid warrior-size models have languished in for several editions. GW have finally hit on a way to make these midrange models work for Nids, but with Ogryn being such a niche unit among the "mooks and tanks" genre, I can't see enough of a build-around to make them work.

^ this.

The only Ogryn I can see foldered into a unit is the Command Squad. Basically remove the Ogryn Bodyguard as a datasheet (likely to happen anyway) and make it an additional model.

Since the release of Bullgryns in the late-6th edition codex, Ogryns have lost their status of rare guard unit capable of melee. Unlike Bullgryns, they can do both melee and shooting, but their shooting value is even weaker than their melee value. I can get that Ogryns are too stupid to aim precisely for long range shots, but come on, not 12" no... So the sooting value is plagued by its ridiculoulsy short range, as well as weak damage profile. I mean, look at these ripper guns, from the plastic kit as well as the 5th edition metals. This is a massive gun, with enormous ammo packs, firing some big caliber rounds. They are very similar to heavy bolter, or even bigger, yet the weapon profile is absolutely not relfecting that. This is what I feel the weapon profile should look like :

Ripper gun : range 18" | assault 3 | strength 5 | AP-1 | damage 2.

With a similar to HB gun with lower range, they could at least inflict some damage while advancing, then finish a weakened squad with their bayonets !

I dig it! I've always thought that they should be something in the "tons of shots, no real AP" category myself.

I'd say something like:

range 18'' , pistol 6, str 4, ap 0, d1

But, really, I'd be happy if ogryn of all kinds were expanded, made more relevant, etc. I think it would be amazing if you could eventually field an entire army of abhumans (and not be so massively non-competitive that you have no real chance for winning).

The first iteration of the ripper gun had a pretty short range, but with the advantage that at even closer range, it hit automatically (long before other auto hit weapons became a thing). It has never been a strong gun, it is more an over-powered shotgun than anything - and of course in the fluff, equipped with a burst limiter to stuff the Ogryn firing it all off at once. All of this contributes to it having poor lethality in an edition of the game where everything is either super killy or never seen. Ogryn have always been a bit of a comedy unit unfortunately, and it shows

If the Ripper is indeed just a Combat Shotgun that had sex with Barry Bonds, then make it's profile reflect that.

12" Assault 3 S5 AP2 D1.

Inside of half range: Assault 3 S6 AP4 D2.

In Melee: Pistol 3 S7 AP5 D3.

I'm happy with Ogryn - they are 10 points cheaper than Bullgryn after all. They would be better at 20pts a model as they stand, or just make the gun a bit better, as mentioned. Both units probably need to be T6 too, 'cos i reckon they are tougher than orks. Hell, how about a 6+ FNP called 'Too dumb to die' ?

leerm02 wrote:
I dig it! I've always thought that they should be something in the "tons of shots, no real AP" category myself.

I'd say something like:

range 18'' , pistol 6, str 4, ap 0, d1

But, really, I'd be happy if ogryn of all kinds were expanded, made more relevant, etc. I think it would be amazing if you could eventually field an entire army of abhumans (and not be so massively non-competitive that you have no real chance for winning).

I'd probably default to making them flak cannon analogues. Making them pistols would go a long way too.

I'm anticipating that my army is pretty meh these days, but I'm blowing the dust off an old project and 'm wondering what to get to complement y existing army:

1 x Company Commander
1 x Lord Commissar
3 x infantry squad (4 vox casters, 1 grenade launcher, 1 plasmagun, 1 flamer, 3 meltaguns, and a mortar team to mix in here)
1 x Command squad (H. Flamer, Medikit, vox, plasmagun)
1 x ministorum priest
1 x techpriest enginseer
1 x Basilisk
1 x leman russ (battlecannon model)
2 x valkyrie
1 x hydra

i can make around 1500 points out of this, but want more flexibility. Any recommendations for expanding this army to make it more viable? Most common enemy is Orks.

I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

My take is that it's hard to tell before the book drops (or, more accurately, gets leaked).

For what it's worth, personally, I always run chimera, but then again I also always lose lol. TBH, the main reason I run chimeras is down to that's what I used in 5th edition (last edition I played before picking 40k back up in 9th) and I'm not big on how tauroxes look.

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

I'd wait until the book drops honestly. Currently we know too little about potential changes to Tauroxes and Chimeras.

 some bloke wrote:
I'm anticipating that my army is pretty meh these days, but I'm blowing the dust off an old project and 'm wondering what to get to complement y existing army:

1 x Company Commander
1 x Lord Commissar
3 x infantry squad (4 vox casters, 1 grenade launcher, 1 plasmagun, 1 flamer, 3 meltaguns, and a mortar team to mix in here)
1 x Command squad (H. Flamer, Medikit, vox, plasmagun)
1 x ministorum priest
1 x techpriest enginseer
1 x Basilisk
1 x leman russ (battlecannon model)
2 x valkyrie
1 x hydra

i can make around 1500 points out of this, but want more flexibility. Any recommendations for expanding this army to make it more viable? Most common enemy is Orks.

Sorry no one else has answered yet. Guard is hurting right now so we're all on standby until our codex comes out.

More Infantry Squads for sure. 3 is too little. 6+ minimum, bit I'd lean closer to 10+ for 2k games.
"Dress them to the 9's" is I think how the saying goes; our equipment for Infantry Squads is free now, so load them up with a Mortar or Lascannon, a Vox, some kind of Special Weapon (Plasma's a good all-rounder), and either a Bolter or a Plasma Pistol and Sword on the Sergeant.

If you can find/get them, 2 Manticores, each with the Full Payload Tank Ace Trait, are still good vs orks.

I'd be tempted to bring several Leman Russ Punishers to put a ton of shots down onto the basic Boyz, but Demolishers will make quick work of vehicles and special units.

I'd say Bullgryns, but they've failed me the last few times I brought them. Whiffed both their attacks and their 3+ invulns (4+ boosted from Astropath).

 MinscS2 wrote:

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

I'd wait until the book drops honestly. Currently we know too little about potential changes to Tauroxes and Chimeras.

Yeah that is probably the right answer...thanks!

Going to a tournament and I'm too slow to run all the foot guard I'd like. Thinking of going with an all tank list for speed. Not expecting to win. Was thinking about 10 tanks with punishers and bolters just for simplicity (with jury rig repairs and spotter details in a spearhead). What would you take differently for an all armor list that might be better?

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

The Taurox looks awful, especially due to the cumbersome and ridiculous tracks with double mudguard. If you can swap these little tracks for big sized resin wheels, the taurox looks much nicer.

As fellow dakkaites, I'm on wait mode, for the next codex. I'm only touching up unfinished projects, so no new transports for now, and few experimentations. So I don't have appropriate advice to give. What you can do however, if buying second-hand vehicles does not bother you, is scouring ebay. Its is when a codex is old and has weak winrates, that second-hand sources are the least sought-after, with the most interesting prices.


Also, check the arguments given by Mordian Glory in its todays video about Chimeras :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrKr77kBykY

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

ATM chimera all the way. The Taurox is just too expensive for what it does. If the Taurox was around 75 points it'd actually be a decent option. Faster and better guns for the point cost, but less transport capacity and durability.

No rumours on either of them in the next codex sadly.

Ravajaxe wrote:

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

The Taurox looks awful, especially due to the cumbersome and ridiculous tracks with double mudguard. If you can swap these little tracks for big sized resin wheels, the taurox looks much nicer.

As fellow dakkaites, I'm on wait mode, for the next codex. I'm only touching up unfinished projects, so no new transports for now, and few experimentations. So I don't have appropriate advice to give. What you can do however, if buying second-hand vehicles does not bother you, is scouring ebay. Its is when a codex is old and has weak winrates, that second-hand sources are the least sought-after, with the most interesting prices.


Also, check the arguments given by Mordian Glory in its todays video about Chimeras :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrKr77kBykY

Jarms48 wrote:

caladancid wrote:
I'd like to get my transport game ready prior to the new book- any good insights on Tauroxes vs Chimerae?

ATM chimera all the way. The Taurox is just too expensive for what it does. If the Taurox was around 75 points it'd actually be a decent option. Faster and better guns for the point cost, but less transport capacity and durability.

No rumours on either of them in the next codex sadly.

Thank you both!

 RegularGuy wrote:
Going to a tournament and I'm too slow to run all the foot guard I'd like. Thinking of going with an all tank list for speed. Not expecting to win. Was thinking about 10 tanks with punishers and bolters just for simplicity (with jury rig repairs and spotter details in a spearhead). What would you take differently for an all armor list that might be better?

All tank lists are slower than infantry. Unless you mean chess clock speed. Armoured lists aren’t very good. No objective holding power, not enough damage, no survivability.

If you want to have fun though, go for it. It’s not like our most competitive lists are winning either.

If you take leman-russes in a spearhead they gain ob-sec, also if you field cheap chimeras and 60 pt kitted out infantry squads you can play objectives

bat702 wrote:
If you take leman-russes in a spearhead they gain ob-sec, also if you field cheap chimeras and 60 pt kitted out infantry squads you can play objectives

I put together a 1250pt spearhead tank list (plus one astropath and one tech priest for fun) recently. Still haven't had the chance to play it, but while I was putting the list together it dawned on me that (unless I'm mistaken) LRBT in a spearhead still only count as a single model and so can be out-obsec'd by pretty much everything with obsec

The squads in chimeras obviously makes up for that, but then I'm not sure spearhead is the way to go in that case

Narrative Campaign Tips:

Thought I'd do something different and suggest some builds for narrative.

Tank Commanders:


Take Assassins - Eversor Assassin:


Take Assassins - Callidus Assassin:


Take a Rogue Trader:


Primaris Psyker or Astropath:


Ogryn Bodyguard:


Death Rider Squadron Commander:


Personally I wouldn't suggest taking Inquisitors, as Astropaths and Primaris Psykers can be buffed to do their job better. The one exception is Inquisitor Coteaz who is amazing for their PL cost, which is the same as a regular Inquistor. Great statline, has a Master-crafted Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Spy Network, can cast 3 powers and deny 2 powers.

New secondaries, special orders seems pretty interesting.

Boots on the Ground seems interesting too, assuming Scions count, not hard to get at least 3 or even 4 table quarters, and drop a regimental standard in the center, or in enemy deployment zone.

Sounds like they didn't know how to make Astra works in 9ed so they went on giving them points for basic things like deploy, kill guys on objective and trying to stay alive on the board to me.

From what I've heard about the default lethality of 9e combined with the abject frailty of our units, I'd say "trying to stay alive" would be a challenge worthy of some extra VP if we succeed.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Boots on the Ground seems interesting too, assuming Scions count, not hard to get at least 3 or even 4 table quarters, and drop a regimental standard in the center, or in enemy deployment zone.

It likely doesn't. Unless you go 100% Scions, as the new stuff limits or heavily curtails multiple sub faction lists. Also, Scions don't have a regimental Standard, they have a Platoon Standard. Look it up. This almost certainly scrues the Scions.

What do you think about the shakup in metagame that is brought in by the new CP allocation ?

I will reserve my jugement for later, when I will see these new CP allocation in action. For now, what I see is other armies than guard having much stronger relics than us, much stronger warlord traits than us, and overall stronger stratagem combos than us, and they rule the scene. Having less CP at the beginning of the battle means all of these CP shenanigans will be toned down. I admit that we are hit too, but less so. It is common practice to field a pair of "full payload" artillery (manticores or basilisks), as almost mandatory selections in guard. Here is our 2 CP expense. Very few other pre-battle expenses are worth it, so we will begin the battles with 4 CP + 1 at start, minus what you may pay for a second detachment. I think Astra Militarum will go through this change relatively unscathed.

There is another point to consider : most of the times, Astra Militarum players are happy to take a battalion or two. While other codexes players make big use of specialist detachments. They will have an incentive to revert to leaner, and a bit weaker army builds. On top of that, Astra Militarum is among the very few codexes that has access to a relatively easy to field, cheap brigade with good troops selection, and few tax (near worthless) units. I don't think I have seen brigades in any of other codexes competitive lists. I think fielding a brigade will be the way to go for Astra Militarum, at least if you dont take the route of a mechanised battalion.

I Don't see how most factions that consider themselves "Elite" function after this. Custodes are done. Astartes may well be ruined for several subfactions. SlamCaptains are gone for sure. DW/GW is/are wrecked.

Factions with the ability to muck around with the cost of Strats got a big boost out of this. Isn't there an assassin that has Reign of Confusion or whatever, costs double to use a strat?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Boots on the Ground seems interesting too, assuming Scions count, not hard to get at least 3 or even 4 table quarters, and drop a regimental standard in the center, or in enemy deployment zone.

It likely doesn't. Unless you go 100% Scions, as the new stuff limits or heavily curtails multiple sub faction lists. Also, Scions don't have a regimental Standard, they have a Platoon Standard. Look it up. This almost certainly scrues the Scions.

Don't see why it wouldn't Scions have the <regiment> keyword, its just locked. And yeah the 'Platoon Standard', had never occurred to me the name was different. Still, not hard to get a Regimental Standard to the center of the battlefield - maybe keeping it alive for more than one turn, sure

 Ravajaxe wrote:
What do you think about the shakup in metagame that is brought in by the new CP allocation ?

I will reserve my jugement for later, when I will see these new CP allocation in action. For now, what I see is other armies than guard having much stronger relics than us, much stronger warlord traits than us, and overall stronger stratagem combos than us, and they rule the scene. Having less CP at the beginning of the battle means all of these CP shenanigans will be toned down. I admit that we are hit too, but less so. It is common practice to field a pair of "full payload" artillery (manticores or basilisks), as almost mandatory selections in guard. Here is our 2 CP expense. Very few other pre-battle expenses are worth it, so we will begin the battles with 4 CP + 1 at start, minus what you may pay for a second detachment. I think Astra Militarum will go through this change relatively unscathed.

There is another point to consider : most of the times, Astra Militarum players are happy to take a battalion or two. While other codexes players make big use of specialist detachments. They will have an incentive to revert to leaner, and a bit weaker army builds. On top of that, Astra Militarum is among the very few codexes that has access to a relatively easy to field, cheap brigade with good troops selection, and few tax (near worthless) units. I don't think I have seen brigades in any of other codexes competitive lists. I think fielding a brigade will be the way to go for Astra Militarum, at least if you dont take the route of a mechanised battalion.

As much as it's going to hurt us, I do think this change will hurt other armies more.

Our relics and warlord traits are pretty bad, so not a huge loss there. I'm seeing less and less manticores in competitive armies now mainly because AoC kinda killed their usefulness, so not much change there for tank aces. The biggest thing the CP changes have done is ruin triple battalions. Though we can get around that by taking more brigades.

The big problem is that alternative detachments are crippled. That neat thing with objective secured on LRBTs? Pretty cool idea for an armored regiment? Nope, once you pay for your detachment and two tank aces you're starting at 1 CP and it's zero CP if you want to take a relic (like maybe that relic battle cannon that a tank army might want). Want to take a Baneblade squadron? Zero starting CP and you don't get a relic or WLT or tank aces at all.

It's clear that for some reason, GW currently hates scions, and is on purpose excluding them from all the big nasty buffs. I worry that there will be something even buffier or nastier then HotE waiting in the wings, which will inevitably cause them to get nerfed.

Jarms48 wrote:
Narrative Campaign Tips:

Thought I'd do something different and suggest some builds for narrative.

Tank Commanders:

Spoiler:

We'll start with the obvious one. Punisher Tank Commanders, amazing in Crusade.

Requisition:
- Spend an RP for Decorated Officer to immediately get Blooded get the Artificer Relic Artificer Weapon. Now your 6's to Hit generate both an autowound and a mortal wound.
- Spend an RP for the Master Mechanic Tank Ace. Keep the Tank Commander alive as long as possible.
- Spend an RP for the Gifted Commander Warlord Trait. It's pre-game and won't be a waste if the TC dies. Gives a great way to move the TC out of danger before 1st turn or put them in range if you roll 1st turn. I consider this optional, but it definitely helps.

During Campaign - Combat Patrol Missions:
- If you skipped the above your first Battle Honour at Blooded get the Artificer Relic Artificer Weapon. You could do this literally after the first battle if you choose the right Agenda and give them Marked for Greatness.
- During any Combat Patrol missions if you roll Assassinate and get the free Battle Trait I'd suggest going for Blessed Hull for the 5+++ mortal wound defence, alternatively take Grizzled Crew it only gives you a 6+++ but it works on everything not just mortals.
- When you get them to Battle-hardened go for Star of Terra. Now your TC has a 2+/4++/5+++ save, the latter only against mortals.

If you continually choose the right Agenda and keep selecting Marked for Greatness you should be able to get all 3 of these buy the end of game 3. Though the free Battle Trait is highly luck dependent.

During Campaign - Incursion Missions:
- At this point you should be focusing on powering up other units, but once you hit Heroic immediately get the Weapon Enhancement Master-worked. Flat damage 2 on a Punisher is scary.

During Campaign - After This:
- As above, you should be shifting focus on powering up other units, don't give them anymore Crusade Relics or Weapon Enhancements. If they manage to reach Legendary just give them Improved Shielding or Enhanced Engines. The former help keep them alive a bit longer, while the latter works well with the Shock Troops stratagem. Elite Crew can have some use as well, it basically frees up an order. Which you can give to another vehicle or do Strike and Shroud on the TC.

Take Assassins - Eversor Assassin:

Spoiler:

Oh boy, this guy can get some insane buffs in Crusade.

During Campaign - Combat Patrol Missions:
Let me just start with, if you're taking a Tank Commander in a Combat Patrol already don't include the Eversor yet. The TC already takes up half your list. If you're doing an infantry focused list or scions focused list then definitely take them early to power them up quickly.

- First Battle Honour at Blooded get the Artificer Relic Frenzon Injector as it stacks with their datasheet Frenzon ability. Which means now the Eversor has a 3D6 rerollable charge range, basically giving you a 75% chance of an average 10.5 inch charge. They also get +3 attacks when charged, charging, or performing heroic intervention.
- During any Combat Patrol missions if you roll Assassinate and get the free Battle Trait I'd suggest going for Deadly Charge which means that +3 attacks turns into +4 attacks.
- When you get them to Battle-hardened go for the Weapon Enhancement Master-worked. Making their 10 power sword attacks flat damage 2.

During Campaign - Incursion Missions:
- At this point you should be focusing on powering up other units, but once you hit Heroic take the Antiquity Relic Archeotech Nano-med. Which means when they die you come back on a 2+, why is this good? It means he can Bio-meltdown twice.

During Campaign - After This:
- If they manage to reach Legendary give them Null-field Disruptor. That way you can ignore invuls on all those power sword attacks.
- For the 6th and last use a free Battle Trait Swift and Agile as the +1 charge means they have an average 11.5 inch charge with rerolls.

Take Assassins - Callidus Assassin:

Spoiler:

Her utility ability to make enemy stratagems cost more or fail is amazing in Crusade because if your opponents are getting additional CP from Crusade Blessings they'll likely be spending it on more stratagems.

During Campaign - Combat Patrol Missions:
I don't recommend taking her at this low of PL, take the TC or Eversor instead. She's better as the game progresses.

During Campaign - Incursion Missions:
If you're taking the Eversor, I'd still suggest not adding her yet. However, if you don't have an Eversor this is how I'd build her.

- First Battle Honour at Blooded get the Artificer Relic Artisan Bionics it pushes her phase sword to S5 and gives her a 5+++.
- When you get them to Battle-hardened go for the Weapon Enhancement Master-worked. This makes her phase sword flat damage 3.
- If you get a free Battle Trait I'd suggest going for Deadly Charge for the +1 attack.

Strike Force Missions:
If you're also taking an Eversor, this is when I'd add the Callidus to your list. By this point everyone is starting with the maximum amount of CP, will likely have other methods to generate CP from characters, and have the most from Crusade Blessings. Use the 3 dot points above to start her off.

If you're taking an Eversor I would suggest:
- Xenotech Digital Lasers at Heroic.
- Swift and Agile at Legionary.

If you're not taking an Eversor I would suggest:
- Frenzon Injector at Heroic. For the charge reroll and +1 attack.
- Xenotech Digital Lasers at Legionary.
- If you get another free Battle Trait I'd likely go Heroic Constitution. Alternatively, go for a Archeotech Curiosity see below.

Take a Rogue Trader:

Spoiler:

They don't even need to be in your list, you could literally use them to give other characters more abilities thanks to their unique requisition. As for their loadout, I would only ever suggest this one - Heirloom pistol; court blade; monomolecular rapier; archeotech grenades; concealed archeotech weapon; disruption field generator; multi-spectral auspicator.

Requisition:
- Spend an RP for Duellist warlord trait.

During Campaign - Combat Patrol Missions:
Thanks to their cheap PL cost you could take them early with a TC. The TC and Cartographica Rogue Trader are only 15 PL, leaving plenty of room for 3 Infantry Squads.

If you're not taking Assassins of any kind:
- First Battle Honour at Blooded get the Artificer Relic Artisan Bionics it pushes their monomolecular rapier to S5 and gives them a 5+++.
- During any Combat Patrol missions if you roll Assassinate and get the free Battle Trait I'd suggest going for Deadly Charge for the +1 attack.
- When you get them to Battle-hardened go for the Weapon Enhancement Master-worked. Making their sword attacks flat damage 3

During Campaign - After This:
Load up on Archeotech Curiosity's. Simple as that. I suggest always taking a bad Artificer Relic immediately pay 2 RP and roll 2D6 on the Archeotech Curiosity tables.

Primaris Psyker or Astropath:

Spoiler:

I'll avoid a full breakdown of when to take abilities, as they only require a handful of buffs.

- At Blooded take the Psychic Fortitude Psychic Might for the additional cast. He already knows 2 powers and smite, an additional cast makes them instantly better.

This is when I really suggest taking a Rogue Trader, as the rest of the Psychic Fortitude stuff is pretty meh. You could take Deadly Charge or Resilient but personally I'd prefer to spend 2RP on Dealer in Exquisite Goods and give them an Archeotech Curiosity. Go for Psychic Augmentations and Physical Augmentations. Then depending on what you roll is how you should build your character.

You could do this multiple times, though I wouldn't suggest more than twice as you run the risk of rolling the same abilities and I don't believe they stack. As the abilities share the same name. After which just take Battle Traits, either stacking durability or melee damage depending on what you rolled.

Ogryn Bodyguard:

Spoiler:

You can surprisingly get 2 fairly durable Ogryn Bodyguards.

1st Ogryn Bodyguard:
Take the Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul.
- Conversion Field: For the 4++ and mortal wound on enemies on a 6.
- Razor-edged on the Bullgryn Maul to make it AP-2. To get around AoC.
- Deadly Charge: For the additional attack.
- Artisan Bionics: If you're not taking an Assassin. It pushes the Bullgryn Maul to S8 and gives them a 5+++.
- Swift and Agile: For more reliable charges.
- Heroic Constitution: To make them more tanky.

2nd Ogryn Bodyguard:
Take the Slabshield, Bullgryn Plate, and Bullgryn Maul.
- Spend 1RP and take The Deathmask Of Ollanius: For the 4++ and heal D3 wounds.
- Razor-edged on the Bullgryn Maul to make it AP-2. To get around AoC.
- Deadly Charge: For the additional attack.
- Frenzon Injector: If you're not taking an Assassin. For more reliable charges and +1 attack.
- Resilient: To make them more tanky.
- Heroic Constitution: To make them more tanky.

Death Rider Squadron Commander:

Spoiler:

In terms of relics there's not many options.

I would suggest purely focusing on buffing their statlines.
- Deadly Charge: For the additional attack.
- Fleshbane: On their power sword for flat damage 2.
- Frenzon Injector: If you're not taking an Assassin. For more reliable charges and +1 attack. Not really necessary with 10 inch move.
- Heroic Constitution: To make them more tanky.
- Archeotech Curiosity. Go for Psychic Augmentations and Action Augmentations.
- Heirloom: On the hunting lance for exploding 6's.

Personally I wouldn't suggest taking Inquisitors, as Astropaths and Primaris Psykers can be buffed to do their job better. The one exception is Inquisitor Coteaz who is amazing for their PL cost, which is the same as a regular Inquistor. Great statline, has a Master-crafted Nemesis Daemon Hammer, Spy Network, can cast 3 powers and deny 2 powers.

I did a more detailed post over on Reddit for Guard crusade builds. You can find it here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAstraMilitarum/comments/vb8nns/imperial_guardastra_militarum_crusade_builds/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Munitorum Field Manual, version 2022.6 : point changes for Astra Militarum :

Straken : no change.

Yarrick : 105 ==> 110 points.

Company Commander : free power sword, free bolt weapons ; power fist 10==>5 points.

Gaunt ghosts : no change.

Pask : no change.

Creed : no change.

Lord Commissar : plasma pistol unchanged, free bolter, free power sword, power fist 10==>5 points.

Tank Commander Leman Russ : no change.

Tempestor Prime : plasma pistol unchanged, free power sword, bolt pistol and command rod ; power fist 10==>5 points.

Conscripts : no change

Infantry Squad : no change from previous dataslate (60 points, free wargear).

Militarum tempestus Scions : few changes, free vox caster, bolt pistol, power sword ; power fist 10==>5 points.

Astropath : no change.

sergeant Kell : no change.

Bullgryns : 35==>30 points.

Command Squad : free regimental standard, vox caster, medipack.

Commissar : free bolter.

Crusaders : no change.

Master of Ordnance : no change.

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad : free regimental standard, vox caster, medipack.

Priest : no change.

Nork Deddog : no change.

Officer of the Fleet : no change.

Ogryn Bodyguard : no change.

Ogryns : no change.

Platoon Commander : power fist 10==>5 points, all other wargear free.

Ratlings : no change.

sergeant Harker : no change.

Servitors : no change.

Severina Raine : no change.

Sly Marbo : no change.

Special Weapons Squad : 40==>45 points for 3 snipers configuration ; 49 ==>45 points for all other special weapons configurations.

Techpriest : no change.

Veterans : 65==>70 points, free heavy weapons, vox caster, sniper rifles ; free sergeant power sword, plasma pistol and bolt weapons ; power fist 10==>5 points.

Wyrdvane Psykers : no change.

Armoured Sentinel : 35==>40 points, free heavy weapons (except hunter-killer missile).

Hellhounds : no change.

Scout Sentinel : 35==>40 points, free heavy weapons (except hunter-killer missile).

Basilisks : no change.

Deathstrike : no change.

Heavy Weapons Squad : free lascannons and missile launchers.

Hydra : no change.

Leman Russ Battle Tank : no change.

Manticore : no change.

Wyvern : no change.

Chimera : no change.

Taurox : no change.

Taurox Prime : no change.

Valkyrie : no change.

all Baneblade super-heavy variants : base unchanged, free options, except lascannon 50==>30 points.