ZergSmasher wrote: Is the Battle Cannon not considered good anymore? I was under the impression that it used to be considered one of the best choices, at least until they buffed Demolishers.
Honestly if the battlecannon was damage 2 I'd run it a lot more, it's the reason I prefer the Executioner over it. With so many two wound models out there the 33% chance that you need two shots to kill a model really hurts and when the dice swing against you it can half your kills. Yeah there's things like death guard and dreadnaughts that hurt damage 2, but a weapon needs to have a downside and I think that's fair. The leman russ used to have a rule called ordnance that helped it do more consistent damage to vehicles, you could word it similar to the chainfist rule where it rolls d3 damage vs infantry and does flat 3 to vehicles and monsters, would be a good niche. Of course then you need to actually fix the vanquisher, but it already sucks so not much changes there
Honestly, when I run normal bs4+ tanks, I always run them as Demolishers now. Those tanks only need to land one or two solid hits to do some serious damage, so when you do hit, it really hurts. Not to mention the extra damage helps get through -1 damage and the FNP that are abundant now.
The battlecannon's issue is that everything it does well is done better by something else, and that it's generalist profile really isn't necessary anymore. You don't need the range, 9th eds tiny tables and terrain assure that. S8 is good, but done better with the executioner and Demolisher, ap 2 is good but again, Executioner and Demolisher, and the d3 damage is a weakness that GW seems to have acknowledged thanks to the change to powerfists and similar weapons. Unless the other variants get serious weaknesses built in other than range, or the battlecannon gets a price drop to reflect how common it's supposed to be, you're really better off served with the demolisher and close support variants from that kit than you are the bog standard Russ kit options.
Honestly, when I run normal bs4+ tanks, I always run them as Demolishers now. Those tanks only need to land one or two solid hits to do some serious damage, so when you do hit, it really hurts. Not to mention the extra damage helps get through -1 damage and the FNP that are abundant now.
On the other hand, a singular Demolisher shot is so much more mathematically valuable than a singular BC shot that you really don't want to miss it due to the standard Russ inferior (compared to a TC) hitting skills.
Also considering that a Demolisher's lifespan is probably 1-2 turns shorter than that of BC Russ.
All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.
ZergSmasher wrote: All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.
Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.
Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.
Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.
Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.
The Exterminator should just have more shots, like 8 rather than 4. Partly debating if AP-2 is necessary given how little AP-1 seems to do nowadays, but that might step on the toes of other turret options.
If Battlecannons went to D3 then they'd have a great place in the armory. D2 they'd still be on the shelf, and in quite a few cases be worse than 1d3 (due to the new prevelance of damage reduction).
kirotheavenger wrote: They're supposed to be tough as well.
They used to have AV14, more than pretty much all other main battle tanks of other factions.
They had AV14 on the front. Sides were I think 13 and rear was 10/11 depending on the variant. So the front was tough to match the driving forward towards the enemy. I miss that mechanic. Made maundering your vehicles have meaning and require planning.
One thing lr bc has going for it is in fact range. Becaause you can screen it up with miles of infantry to block deepstrikes and if reallyclever use the board to get in an extra shot on a lot of targets. Its not got the pen of plasma or demo .. But ot has got the power and pene. To mess up a lot of intermediate enemy assets from range. Especially in a few matchups i have used the range on lr to pin enemy eradicators down behind far away cover. I couldnt shoot thwm twice but they would have been stuck being shot multipke times at range had they come for me... And then by very careful positioning the bc could shoot down the ither board half to support.
I still lost to marines but it was not the fault of my two bc tanks as any of the shorter range optio s would have probably eaten a charge and then been eradicated by meltaassault. So mg thought is...
Make the autocannon. Ariant fire 6 and grindfire 12 ac shots.
Make the battlecannon and demo cannon both ap2.. A slight nerf to an overly powerful demo gun
Let the plasma turret as is.
Give that sucky tankhunter full reroll to hit and flat six damage with three pen.. And remember its targets rarely hide well at any range.
Give s6 1ap d3 iggnore cover also indirect fire mode
Then. Limit any player to a max of three of any specific gun in turret. Cause interestinger
ZergSmasher wrote: All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.
Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.
Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.
Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.
Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.
Nova cannon is probably the single most useless variant in the entire LR arsenal. There isn't a single possible scenario where an Executioner - same price, same range - wouldn't perform better. Simply put you can either shoot at target in cover with the nova cannon's S6 AP2 and negated cover rule - or you can shoot at it with the Executioner's S7/S8 AP3 and ignore the cover anyway.
It's arguably even worse than the Vanquisher, because the latter at least has an intented purpose, it's just that it's extremely bad at it.
If they really want to make the nova cannon the "anti-cover option", it absolutely needs a "re-roll hits" or "re-roll wounds" sort of rule against targets in cover.
ZergSmasher wrote: All good points about the BC. That officially means that all the options in the standard Leman Russ kit (BC, Vanquisher, Eradicator, Exterminator) are cabbage. Hopefully those all get a boost whenever Guard get their new codex.
Yeah. It's sad to see the variety that the LR has for weapons largely going to waste when compared to the big three of executioners, demolishers, and punishers. I think part of that has to do with power creep for certain weapons (Heavy bolters becoming D2 devaluing the exterminator and multi-meltas doing more consistent damage than the vanquisher cannon) but it's also that they really aren't optimized for the multi-wound meta we have now.
Vanquisher cannons ideally have a rule where they always have a +1 to hit modifier to reflect their accuracy, and a boost to 3+D3 damage which becomes a flat 6 total damage against units with the MONSTERS and VEHICLE keywords. Debating if it should also be boosted to S9, but that's dependent on the pricing on the Vanquisher.
Battle Cannons becoming flat damage 2 is probably good enough, maybe make them 2D3 shots rather than D6 to reduce variance and make it more reliable compared to the D6 shots a demolisher has.
Eradicator nova cannons are in a weird spot since single damage blast weapons aren't exactly great at horde clearing compared to what we already have with the Punisher. I could see them upping the amount of shots by making it 3D3 shots and having it ignore the benefits of dense and light cover for units it shoots at, so only obscuring terrain really does anything to protect enemy units. I'm not familiar with their price point right now, but they should be one of the cheapest options available so they don't look bad compared to the more versatile LR turret weapons.
Nova cannon is probably the single most useless variant in the entire LR arsenal. There isn't a single possible scenario where an Executioner - same price, same range - wouldn't perform better. Simply put you can either shoot at target in cover with the nova cannon's S6 AP2 and negated cover rule - or you can shoot at it with the Executioner's S7/S8 AP3 and ignore the cover anyway.
It's arguably even worse than the Vanquisher, because the latter at least has an intented purpose, it's just that it's extremely bad at it.
If they really want to make the nova cannon the "anti-cover option", it absolutely needs a "re-roll hits" or "re-roll wounds" sort of rule against targets in cover.
The Nova cannon was fine when it came outin 5th Ed. Any non-space marine army hated it then. But the way the game has evolved (changes to AP and cover) has left it in a situation where is did not benefit from any changes.
I think either fire indirect oer ignore all cover and hit modifiers could ... Or both ... Could reflect it bei g air burst and thus less power but less dependant on a direct hit. Probably the nutsos in gw imaginr ignore cover and ap1 already too powerfulfor gaurd...
What are the current thoughts on the strengths and weakness of each of the doctrines? What play-style/tactics work best with each? (ie gunline, mobile shoot-and-scoot, etc...) I had been using Mordian, but with the CP cost of overwatch I'm probably going to switch.
Salted Diamond wrote: What are the current thoughts on the strengths and weakness of each of the doctrines? What play-style/tactics work best with each? (ie gunline, mobile shoot-and-scoot, etc...) I had been using Mordian, but with the CP cost of overwatch I'm probably going to switch.
Alright, caveat I mostly play Catachans and Valhallans, sometimes run Cadians and custom regiments. Not going to cover custom regiments or stormtroopers here.
CadianStill the most powerful shooting in a gunline scenario. Most accurate, most orders, most tricks to get around accuracy. Cons are you are heavily penalized for moving with Cadians, you can still do it, but in a game as mobile as 9th you need to be moving
Catachans Probably the most competitive regiment as a pure army. You've got good shooting buffs, the only regiment with any real melee threat, and have some great utility characters in straken, Harker, and marbo, each one doing different things but well worth the price. Straken buffs melee, Harker buffs shooting, and marbo is great for things like deploy scramblers. Downside is they require a lot of characters to get their best mileage, so theyre very weak to assassinate
Mordians probably the worst regiment. Your regiment trait mostly does not function without strategem support, and it encourages you to bunch up and be b2b, making you vulnerable to melee and getting tagged in melee. Their order is nice with SWS/CCS/vets, but their strategem was horribly gimped and their other buffs are pretty bad. Better represented by a custom regiment
Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.
TallarnTheir regiment trait doesn't come up a ton, but has niche uses. Infantry can get the same effect with an order most of the time, the tanks trait basically never comes up. However their tank order is excellent, and their outflank ability is nice because they can come on the enemy's table edge, so it's a strictly superior reserves provided you take enough tanks to make it worth it.
Vostroyans The range increase can be handy if you lean into it, especially with Demolishers and punishers. Their strat is good as well, albeit you don't want to run shadowswords so it's not as much of a knockout punch as it used to be. Order is a worse version of Valhallans, but still better than punching the opponent with fix bayonets so it has a little use.
Armageddon got kneecapped a bit with the loss of the specialist detachments. Infantry trait is good, tank trait is ok, but not the best. Their order is basically just GW giving them a pity point so they can kind of use their transports as gunboats, except much worse than before. Same with strat.
Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.
How do you usually run your Valhallans?
They were my first IG regiment but I gave up on them throughout 8th Edi because it felt as if GW was systematically nefing all of their specialties (stratagem, Commissars, conscripts) into the ground. Their relic also seems less useful in 9th than in 8th (and is also kinda schizophrenical in that it effectively neutralizes their own regimental doctrine).
The way I could imagine them would be lots of foot-slogging infantry, lots of HWS with Platoon Commanders and bare-bone Russes with non-blast turret weapons.
Salted Diamond wrote: What are the current thoughts on the strengths and weakness of each of the doctrines? What play-style/tactics work best with each? (ie gunline, mobile shoot-and-scoot, etc...) I had been using Mordian, but with the CP cost of overwatch I'm probably going to switch.
Alright, caveat I mostly play Catachans and Valhallans, sometimes run Cadians and custom regiments. Not going to cover custom regiments or stormtroopers here.
CadianStill the most powerful shooting in a gunline scenario. Most accurate, most orders, most tricks to get around accuracy. Cons are you are heavily penalized for moving with Cadians, you can still do it, but in a game as mobile as 9th you need to be moving
Catachans Probably the most competitive regiment as a pure army. You've got good shooting buffs, the only regiment with any real melee threat, and have some great utility characters in straken, Harker, and marbo, each one doing different things but well worth the price. Straken buffs melee, Harker buffs shooting, and marbo is great for things like deploy scramblers. Downside is they require a lot of characters to get their best mileage, so theyre very weak to assassinate
Mordians probably the worst regiment. Your regiment trait mostly does not function without strategem support, and it encourages you to bunch up and be b2b, making you vulnerable to melee and getting tagged in melee. Their order is nice with SWS/CCS/vets, but their strategem was horribly gimped and their other buffs are pretty bad. Better represented by a custom regiment
Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.
TallarnTheir regiment trait doesn't come up a ton, but has niche uses. Infantry can get the same effect with an order most of the time, the tanks trait basically never comes up. However their tank order is excellent, and their outflank ability is nice because they can come on the enemy's table edge, so it's a strictly superior reserves provided you take enough tanks to make it worth it.
Vostroyans The range increase can be handy if you lean into it, especially with Demolishers and punishers. Their strat is good as well, albeit you don't want to run shadowswords so it's not as much of a knockout punch as it used to be. Order is a worse version of Valhallans, but still better than punching the opponent with fix bayonets so it has a little use.
Armageddon got kneecapped a bit with the loss of the specialist detachments. Infantry trait is good, tank trait is ok, but not the best. Their order is basically just GW giving them a pity point so they can kind of use their transports as gunboats, except much worse than before. Same with strat.
What no krieg :p
Let me sum it up for you... no unique warlord trait, or strat, or relic or order.... regimental doctrine is unreliable and niche...
But they do have access to a marginally better company commander (marshal), decent death riders command squads and death rider commander, and niche grenade strat using deepstrike engineers... but all this doesn’t actually add enough to make them better then other regiments... hopefully krieg are added into the next codex...
I'm looking into a krieg death rider force backed up by smaller bullgrin squads to take objectives. And cadian thud gun/manticore artillery for the shooting part. Assorted character support with either yarrick and inquisitor to provide direct help to the front line or waves of scion dragons dropping in (marine 12" bubble of no deep strike makes them better than lions). As soon as battlescribe updates with the imperial armor compendium guard units I can put together a better list.
So I was pondering "how the heck do we fight things like those monstrous sword and shield guys" and then I realized something.
Crusaders suck, right? That's what everyone says and I disagree.
1 astropath (+1 save)
1 ministerium priest (aura) .. those are de rigueur for an army of gaurd in ninth, I think.
AND.
5 crusaders. (100 points) compare to 3 bullygrn at 129.
crusaders have a tepid 15 attacks with powerswords at s3, bullygrn whack away with 13 big swings at s7, right? and do more damage?
Enter the blade of conquest. Give it to a guy, and then pop acts of faith on this unit to permit it to do THIRTY attacks.
6 of them are now s5/-4/d3 and the other 24 of them are "tepid" (getting warmer) s3/-3/1. You throw them into melee (possibly exiting a chimera for an optional +2 to charge) and they reroll all attacks that miss, meaning they probably hit around 28 times.
Now the bullygrn -- so easily brought down by a few heavy shots designed to kill elite marines -- don't look so much better. Your pack of crusaders can kill more horde, but it can also do a damn fine job slicing up things like intercessors that don't necessarily come with a melee shield, OR anything else. Cause the B.O.C. gives you extra strength/damage kick. 4+/4++ armor with +1 on the die (stormshield) can become 3+/3++ (astropath) and then further tweak down to 2+/3++ (go to ground strat) .. with +1 on the die. So you basically negate the bolterfire ap-1 even if your opponent is in a lucky phase of the marine time of the month thing
This combo could be run down to a simple 2 crusader pair -- one guy to soak, one guy to kill. Its a combo you can reasonably use to whack an enemy officer, too, zipping in to fight a lieutenant or captain on pretty equal terms. Sure, the marine guy is slightly beefier, but you still got multiple bodies, and you WILL hit him, a LOT, with all those swings.
Maybe its even useful as an assassination storm group to go in and remove an apothecary the old fashioned way. By killing him to death.
ah. poop, that's what I get for leaving my codex in the car and going by memmory. Even so, if you hit a unit of marines 28 or so times and force 14 saves against powerswords, I reckon that's six dead intercessors, which is more than your 5 crusaders cost you.
Yeh, I mean they're only getting 3 attacks each with the priest. The act of faith will only kick in if they are already in combat at the start of your turn which means they'd have had to have already survived a charge. Not so easy with just a 4++.
I think you need to measure their value as a unit that you're probably gonna throw into a charge and not have much left by your next turn. The fight again, or even revival abilities are cute but you're unlikely to have much left when the time comes back around.
More useful is the move shenanigans you can do with them. Essentially move twice then charge although even that is limited as they will more than likely be in a transport at the beginning of your turn.
So comparing to bulgryns you're looking at:
120pts for 12 S4 -3 1D rerolling hits
129pts for 10 S7 -1 2D
They're both on a 4++ except bulgryns are T5 and 9w as opposed to T3 and 6w total. I do still like crusaders but I don't think they really compare favourably to bullgryn. They're not even any easier to transport.
I am curious why you can't use act of faith unless already in combat? You have to pick it at the start of your fight phase, sure, but (I confess the book is outside in 40ish degree rain in a car parked sooo far away) but I thought you coudl designate it on your target even if not in melee yet?
You have to be within an inch of an enemy model to use it. And acts of faith happen at the start of your turn not start of the fight phase I'm afraid.
Probably all gonna change anyway to conform with the sisters rules in someway
Valhallans I run Valhallans a lot and really enjoy them, but I wouldn't call them super competitive. Their tank trait comes in handy but unfortunately with no real way to buff their firepower you usually just die slower. Infantry trait is in same boat. Where they shine is their order allowing you to fire into combat, it's a truly unique ability and can win games. If they could do it with tanks they'd be really powerful, but as is it's a fun niche ability to troll the local slaneesh and blood angels players. Strategem is completely broken in matched play, does not function. Relic pistol has some niche uses, namely the best conscript blobs you can get by being unbreakable.
How do you usually run your Valhallans?
They were my first IG regiment but I gave up on them throughout 8th Edi because it felt as if GW was systematically nefing all of their specialties (stratagem, Commissars, conscripts) into the ground. Their relic also seems less useful in 9th than in 8th (and is also kinda schizophrenical in that it effectively neutralizes their own regimental doctrine).
The way I could imagine them would be lots of foot-slogging infantry, lots of HWS with Platoon Commanders and bare-bone Russes with non-blast turret weapons.
Still figuring them out in 8th. Obviously you run lots of infantry, usually I do infantry squads and say 1 to 2 conscript blobs. Company Commander babysits conscripts with the pistol and their job is really just to screen, infantry squads is second screen. 3 line is your tanks and specialist infantry like SWS, CCS, and HWS mortars. Ideally I run plasma and mortars, the idea being that these squads will inevitably be clearing enemies off of tanks so you want to avoid melta. Plasma will hurt, but with your tank trait you can take a few plasma hits, not so with melta.
As for tanks themselves I prefer a mix of Executioner and Demolisher with the obligatory manticores. Since Valhallans don't get much in way of firepower buffs I don't fool with regular Russe's anymore unless I'm playing narrative. I know people here like punishers but honestly I find them abysmal in such a marine heavy meta. I understand a punisher volley should kill almost 4 marines, and the heavy bolters should kill another 2 or so, but I just have so many shots bounce off armor saves. Basically the inverse of the executioner, I just feel unlucky with it. I should probably give them another shot. A single punisher would be good to have for a horde.
The local Blood Angels player also insists I should try a couple of heavy flamer chimeras to either stick my special weapons in or screen with. Im skeptical they'll do much for the price but given they never degrade and can fire in melee maybe he's on to something. It would give me another infantry delivery option than just reserves, although I find coming on from a table edge is usually perfect for my plasma as is.
The big problem with the Valhallans is not that they lack punch or durability, but that they just struggle to make it past the mid point of the board. Honestly my meta is so aggressive almost every game devolves into a desperate melee in my deployment turn one. The boards got smaller, the models got faster, and my deployment zones are skinnier, and it's just hard to recover from there
Yeah, I think punishers suck in this meta, too, which is sort of not their fault. I prefer a triple heavy flamer tank with a demolisher on top, a storm bolter, and a bad attitude to go with its master mechanic tank ace.
If I were running valhalla, which I am NOT, I would definitely put a few crusaders in my mix, and meltas. cause firing those meltas (low shot count) into the crusaders, you can strip a lot of heavy marines off fast, at slight risk to your own goal. A single 10 man crusader group with a +1 save built in is a fairly awesome midboard blocker, with go to ground, its got serious "nope" potential against bolters, and if they spend 120 bolters to try to kill 10 crusaders? That's about 90 other gaurdsmen who didn't die this round.
I would personally NEVER take Special Weapon Squads in HF Chimeras when Veterans with Hades Breaching Drills exist, Leman Russ Demolishers when 3x Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery have a bit less durability but superb damage in comparison (and still 36" range so even with 4" movement you can still outrange 5,99" +24"/30" Demolishers)
The loss of mobility is critical in ninth. Leman russes -- especially my beloved tallarn ones -- can corner around obstacles that would leave the rapiers pointed at a wall and not firing for turn after turn. This is not a minor concern.
Dukeofstuff wrote: The loss of mobility is critical in ninth. Leman russes -- especially my beloved tallarn ones -- can corner around obstacles that would leave the rapiers pointed at a wall and not firing for turn after turn. This is not a minor concern.
I do concede the drills are awesome, though.
When the best case scenario for a Leman Russ is 4,99" (reduced to 3,49" and 1,99") to have its damage output not halved at best, there isn't really a difference in mobility
Pyroalchi wrote: Tallarn Russes can move an additional 6" with their order regardless of their damage bracket and still fire twice
And lose out on +6", Reroll 1s to hit and Reroll D6s shots.
Not worth it anyway especially when you could take the new Rapiers with Krieg and have them shoot again on death on a 4+
I respect your argument, I just wanted to second duke of stuff that when movement does matter, rapiers are really slow.
But then again, it might not matter that much. Do you have practical experience with the three Rapiers? Would be interesting to hear about it
One possible hickup: with gravis models being the current hotness a lot of armies will be prepared to kill T5 3+ models fast.
Pyroalchi wrote: I respect your argument, I just wanted to second duke of stuff that when movement does matter, rapiers are really slow.
But then again, it might not matter that much. Do you have practical experience with the three Rapiers? Would be interesting to hear about it
One possible hickup: with gravis models being the current hotness a lot of armies will be prepared to kill T5 3+ models fast.
Movement do not matter when you lose out so much on damage and only if you play Tallarn (without Tallarn Leman Russ mobility is a joke due to how Grinding Advance works).
On the Gravis consideration, they're still 4W wounds and people do in fact use MM Attack Bike which have the same profile except for the movement so no, they aren't completely fragile (they could be for points but you have to take in consideration the best profile AM has access to, i.e. S10 AP-4 3+D3 Damage)
I ain't calliung them crap, I am just noting they are a very immobile unit in a game where mobility is very important. IF your area's terrain is very open, your mobility may seem less important, till you realize a single leman russ can move 10 inches, advance another d6, order itself to go another 6, and then fire 2 multimelta and a lascannon into each side rapier (ok, 2MM and a hunterkiller into one) and 6 shots of demolisher into the center one.
That's not its full firepower potential, but the loss of 1/2 the shots against a single rapier is trivial when you expect to hit it with 3 shots of demolisher fire .. wounding on 2's, save at 6+, so 3d6 damage to a 4W model, very likely. Course, your tank commander WILL cost more than the 3 rapiers, but the point I am trying to make is, there are plenty of tools in the modern arsenal that can kill these things on the swoop from outside their range, or outside their line of sight, without taking a scratch. So they don't exactly make their points back unless you have so ma ny of them that you can suffer such a loss of 3 of them 3 or so times and still be smiling.
Rapiers brought in from strategic reserves might do quite well, especially against elite armies that can't field enough board control to block their arrival, but then again, they are doing very well on turn 2, and the leman russes have already advanced and fired once with demolishers before they get there to do so. So its not quite a straight comparison. I confess I am myself quite eager to try a couple rapiers out and see for myself, but I don't expect them to replace, merely to augment, native leman russes (whcih can do things in tallarn hands that no other gaurd model can do, period.)
Dukeofstuff wrote: I ain't calliung them crap, I am just noting they are a very immobile unit in a game where mobility is very important. IF your area's terrain is very open, your mobility may seem less important, till you realize a single leman russ can move 10 inches, advance another d6, order itself to go another 6, and then fire 2 multimelta and a lascannon into each side rapier (ok, 2MM and a hunterkiller into one) and 6 shots of demolisher into the center one.
That's not its full firepower potential, but the loss of 1/2 the shots against a single rapier is trivial when you expect to hit it with 3 shots of demolisher fire .. wounding on 2's, save at 6+, so 3d6 damage to a 4W model, very likely.
Course, your tank commander WILL cost more than the 3 rapiers, but the point I am trying to make is, there are plenty of tools in the modern arsenal that can kill these things on the swoop from outside their range, or outside their line of sight, without taking a scratch. So they don't exactly make their points back unless you have so ma ny of them that you can suffer such a loss of 3 of them 3 or so times and still be smiling.
Rapiers brought in from strategic reserves might do quite well, especially against elite armies that can't field enough board control to block their arrival, but then again, they are doing very well on turn 2, and the leman russes have already advanced and fired once with demolishers before they get there to do so. So its not quite a straight comparison. I confess I am myself quite eager to try a couple rapiers out and see for myself, but I don't expect them to replace, merely to augment, native leman russes (whcih can do things in tallarn hands that no other gaurd model can do, period.)
The "till you realize a Leman Russ moves 10" is completely irrelevant when it loses half its firepower (and -1 to hit when advancing with Tallarn), therefore having a real movement stat of 4,99"/3,49"/1,99" not to lose all its firepower, namely being less mobile than a 4" Artillery aside from the additional 0,99" inches (which is irrelevant) in his best profile.
If you're looking for mobility (even with Tallarn but at this point even damage and survivability sucks), don't look at Leman Russes (or any other guard vehicle for this matter).
I think you and I use leman russes far differently, or rather, our playstyles likely reflect differences in the way our local communities have interpreted the terrain rules for ninth edition. Out of curiousity, what army do your run for the rest of your 2000? I am not asking to nitpick, but it always makes me happy to see a different but viable gaurd style (who knows, in six months, I may be agreeing with you.)
Dukeofstuff wrote: I think you and I use leman russes far differently, or rather, our playstyles likely reflect differences in the way our local communities have interpreted the terrain rules for ninth edition. Out of curiousity, what army do your run for the rest of your 2000? I am not asking to nitpick, but it always makes me happy to see a different but viable gaurd style (who knows, in six months, I may be agreeing with you.)
No, there's no "different use of Leman Russ", they are too expensive for what they do and their damage output or tankyness is bad in a Multimelta meta where your vehicles are either quite cheap that you can put many of them and while not caring or equipped with strong Invulnerable saves and FNPs that makes your opponent need a bit more "oomph" to bring it down; you won't ever see a successful IG list with Vehicles (perhaps only few FW ones like Hades or Rapiers and 2x double Payload Manticores that do not really care about Bring it Down when not taken en masse) right now with the old 8TH codex, the only way to have a (strong word I'd say) a "competitive" IG list is with massed infantry that plays the game to deny opponent Primaries rather than going big with yours
To kill one Leman Russ you need on average 5.24 Melta hits at half range and 8.23 above half range.
5.24 Melta shots at half range kill on average 2.5 Rapiers (212.5 points), 8.23 Melta hits at full range kill on average 3.77 Rapiers (320 points)(possible damage dice rolls taken into acount).
And those rapiers are much more vulnerable against other weapons and can't be ordered or take tank aces. So I don't know, I think Leman Russ still are kind of sturdy.
Edit: just for example: 6 Autocannon hits kill a rapier from 48" away, to kill a Russ you need 36 Autocannon shots.
Pyroalchi wrote: To kill one Leman Russ you need on average 5.24 Melta hits at half range and 8.23 above half range.
5.24 Melta shots at half range kill on average 2.5 Rapiers (212.5 points), 8.23 Melta hits at full range kill on average 3.77 Rapiers (320 points)(possible damage dice rolls taken into acount).
And those rapiers are much more vulnerable against other weapons and can't be ordered or take tank aces. So I don't know, I think Leman Russ still are kind of sturdy.
Edit: just for example: 6 Autocannon hits kill a rapier from 48" away, to kill a Russ you need 36 Autocannon shots.
1) First of all, nobody really takes Autocannon since they are a gak weapon right now in this meta.
2) Ordering a Leman Russ means taking an HQ which gets fethed by Assassinate, Bring it Down and Tally secondaries, not bad for a single piece that warrants 3 choices (and you can even combo 2 together to gain 4 VPs) and literally means rerolling 1s to hit if not Tallarn.
3) Rapiers can avoid overkill easier than Leman Russes which are 12w a piece instead of 3x4w each: if your D6 whatever weapon doesn't manage to have a 4+ on the dice that means your single Rapier actually takes 2D6s offs the potential damage of the unit.
4) Rapiers are best when Taken in Krieg which is also good if you consider that Krieg offers one the best durable/mobile units IG has (Death Rider Command Squadron) since you literally double shoot on death on a 4+
5) Rapiers damage compared to a LRBT is off the chart: 3+D3 damage means every wound kills 99% of multiwound pieces that aren't Vehicle/MCs whilst D6 is the most random you can get off any dice roll
I must be misunderstanding the new cult of sacrifice rule, then, I thougth it was only valid for characters and vehicles, so no cavalry, non character infantry, auxilla.
I also didn't realize that you fired the lascannon 3 times on a roll of 4+ at the unit death time, that's pretty powerful for a rapier and gives your argument a lot of merit. I may even have ot figure on taking an extra basilisk if I start seeing krieg pop up locally, it would make simply pinning a lot of the rapiers with light skirmish forces a better option than taking them out at short range with guns (or, of course, popping them with basilisk fire from out of line of sight.)
I don't, however, understand how you get "fire TWICE" on death for any unit in dkok?
The "Fire on Death" portion of Cult of Sacrifice indeed only works on CHARACTER and VEHICLE models. The reason people are suggesting Rapiers is because they have a Heavy 3 Laser Destroyer that can potentially fire on death.
BaconCatBug wrote: The "Fire on Death" portion of Cult of Sacrifice indeed only works on CHARACTER and VEHICLE models. The reason people are suggesting Rapiers is because they have a Heavy 3 Laser Destroyer that can potentially fire on death.
And since they have no degradation table each dying model that rolls a 4+ effectively fires another time
Well, he HAS convinced me that rapiers in dkok hands are worth something, if only because they can shoot about as well at their own cost as an eradicator and then do it again every other death. That's pretty darn good.
I still don't see how he gets the command squad to shoot in 4) above, though, much less twice! I suspect I just misread his sentence structure there.
What would you emphasise in a 650 point "patrol" match where everything has to fit in a single patrol?
I would probably complain about not having platoons, and then go about actually building a list
Order of importance would probably be
*Manticore
*Bullgryn
*Preacher
*Unit of conscripts and two infantry squads
*Company Commander
And then season rest to taste. At 650pts you really dont have the luxury of avoiding conscripts, but I'd think a unit of conscripts, two infantry squads, and Bullgryn should cover infantry needs ok.
So I would run it as a gaurd herohammer group, because in a lot of ways that appeals to me more than running it as a blob of infantry with a blob of bullygrn.
Company Commander with powerfist and plasma pistol, deathmask of oleanus. He has an OLD GRUDGES. Lord Commisar with powerfist and relic bolt pistol emperor's benediction (-1cp) Malleus inquisitor with force sword, inferno pistol, -1 to be woudn relic, warlord trait extra psy pow,act,deny, and alpha psyker (-2 cp total). Knows "give a unit of infantry a 5++"/or dominate, castigate, psychic pursuit. 170. Ministerium priest Astropath with Malstrom (or +1 save, your choice) elites 65 30 conscripts 10 gaurd regular with plasma pistol, powersword 10 gaurd regular with plsama pistol, powersword full payload manticore (-1 cp)
I think that's going to give you as much punch power as you get out of 4 bullygrn (cause the inquisitor, lord commisar, and astropath are now here to help, and there are some powerweapons and pistols in the pile) Your mix of pistols and spells and then a charge should do as well, or better, while giving you denies and options (like sniping an enemy apothecary to death, for example) that 4 bullygrn just can't give. Or heroic interventions, even, from characters that are surprisingly not crap in melee for gaurd, and which (unlike bullygrn) the enemy can't target with shooting. While 30 conscripts isn't unkillable, you have enough intrinsic support with buffs and such, to maybe keep a screen around the heroes (especially if you got them to 4++ shields with buffs and 2+ armor)
Regarding the Laser Rapier v the Demolisher, I couldn't see this point bieng made -
if the Laser moves it gets -1 to hit right? and the demolisher doesn't.
Plus the demolisher has a better view 'cos its on top of a tank.
Historically the laser rapier was considered a vehicle, so it wouldn't -1 if that is still so. I can't say for sure as I lack access to a compendium, and they might have made different, but its probably the same (as the thunderfire in the new codex still is)
PaddyMick wrote: Regarding the Laser Rapier v the Demolisher, I couldn't see this point bieng made -
if the Laser moves it gets -1 to hit right? and the demolisher doesn't.
Plus the demolisher has a better view 'cos its on top of a tank.
The Rapier Laser Destroyer is a non-INFANTRY unit, and thus does not suffer a -1 to hit for moving and firing Heavy weapons.
As it is a VEHICLE, it benefits from "The Big Guns Never Tire" rule, and can fire its weapons while within engagement range, albeit at -1 to hit if it is a Heavy weapon.
The main benefit the Demolisher has is that it can fire the Demolisher Cannon twice even while moving at half speed, so it gets D6 blast shots twice. While overkill for any unit that generally comes in 11+ model units, that still means it can handle both hoards and 6+ model elite units better than the Rapier.
The main benefit the Rapier is a consistent rate of fire, doesn't degrade, and a 4-6 damage roll rather than a 1-6 damage roll.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Historically the laser rapier was considered a vehicle, so it wouldn't -1 if that is still so. I can't say for sure as I lack access to a compendium, and they might have made different, but its probably the same (as the thunderfire in the new codex still is)
Aha yeah didn't spot that. Seems counter-intuitive, since it's Artillery, but I guess it's the only Artillery that can move.
I'm still taking a demolisher rather than 2 lasers, for the points, since you just get more options each turn and probably more turns alive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Hades drill does look interesting but I can't work out how good it would be.
It wants to be in combat against vehicles but it's slow.
Does it allow vets to deepstrike turn 1? cos that sounds good.
PaddyMick wrote: Regarding the Laser Rapier v the Demolisher, I couldn't see this point bieng made -
if the Laser moves it gets -1 to hit right? and the demolisher doesn't.
Plus the demolisher has a better view 'cos its on top of a tank.
The Rapier Laser Destroyer is a non-INFANTRY unit, and thus does not suffer a -1 to hit for moving and firing Heavy weapons.
As it is a VEHICLE, it benefits from "The Big Guns Never Tire" rule, and can fire its weapons while within engagement range, albeit at -1 to hit if it is a Heavy weapon.
The main benefit the Demolisher has is that it can fire the Demolisher Cannon twice even while moving at half speed, so it gets D6 blast shots twice. While overkill for any unit that generally comes in 11+ model units, that still means it can handle both hoards and 6+ model elite units better than the Rapier.
The main benefit the Rapier is a consistent rate of fire, doesn't degrade, and a 4-6 damage roll rather than a 1-6 damage roll.
It's shoot twice at LESS than half speed and ON THE SAME target, very different from how you said it
A big problem with tank commanders is they are characters, imagine losing 3 pts for bring it down, 3 pts for assassinate, and 1 pt for thin their ranks all in one easily killable leman russ
So, I notice the ephrael and kyganil (pardon my spelling) are sort of like the ghost inquisitor duo of the current edition, you can put this sisters character (inexplicably T4 and S4 with a 4++ shield and -1 to be hit) and her ex-harlequin in your gaurd list for 125 points. They can be part of a militarum tempests battalion, a cadian patrol, or even an admech one you put in to do repairs. They don't consume the "same" slot that an assassin or inquisitor does, so you can end up with a lot of special stuff in an otherwise "has a reputation for few surprises" style of army.
Is they worth it? I note you could ALSO put this character in admech, marine, or even in an inquisiton detachment for a no-slot, no break the doctrine addition. Ephrael is a bear to kill, for anything we can field, because other than an intrinsic -1 to be hit,3+/4++ and 6W, you also have a 5++ FNP as long as kyganil is nearby. So its got to be about as tanky a choice as old man yarrik himself, and I will also note that she gets a fifth attack if near a simple, astra or sisters ministerium priest.
That and the harleqyins intrinsic fight first (and up to 8 swings) is not a bad combo for 125, even if it adds two MORE characters to the roster.
It seems like you could dribble this into a "gaurdyhammer" list pretty easily, but I am not quite sold on the value 125 points brings. Still, two decent melee characters that consume no slot at all, is not too shabby, I mean, roll 2d6 and on a 5+ dish d3 to d6 mortal wounds? Not terrible for half the package, not at all. Even just throwing his plasma grenades and then charging with blades, you can imagine the harlequin dropping something like 10 gaurd a turn himself. So I reckon this isn't a bad buy if points are available.
I don't know about good, but always fun. Have yet to play a game in 9th, but in 8th I was known to field 3 full squads of Tallarn and have them screen my outflanking tanks. The reactions I'd get plopping 30 of them in my opponents backfield was always worth it.
Best mobility and tankyness point per point in a IG army (and they can finally receive orders from the Death Rider Commander now, so MOVE MOVE MOVE is a must)
Initial caveat, they're legends, so technically not legal for most competitive games, although some events do allow them
As for actual rules, they're pretty bad now that most units can outflank, especially with IG. Their melee is pretty bad with no way to improve charge from reserves and even if you make it they won't kill much. Their best use is carrying special weapons, which is done better by stormtroopers and outflanking weapons teams.
The DKOK ones are pretty good, but only available to krieg. You would need to give them their own detachment or do an admech style mixed detachment to get any use out of them. Usually you don't want to do a mixed IG detachment because you lose some good regiment abilities, but I guess if you were going to do some outflanking tallarn shenanigans or outflank some Mordians SWS/CCS to snipe characters those regiments would be ok with losing their doctrine since you're bringing them for theit strats and orders. Might be something worth trying if you have the CP to spare for a patrol.
Initial caveat, they're legends, so technically not legal for most competitive games, although some events do allow them
As for actual rules, they're pretty bad now that most units can outflank, especially with IG. Their melee is pretty bad with no way to improve charge from reserves and even if you make it they won't kill much. Their best use is carrying special weapons, which is done better by stormtroopers and outflanking weapons teams.
The DKOK ones are pretty good, but only available to krieg. You would need to give them their own detachment or do an admech style mixed detachment to get any use out of them. Usually you don't want to do a mixed IG detachment because you lose some good regiment abilities, but I guess if you were going to do some outflanking tallarn shenanigans or outflank some Mordians SWS/CCS to snipe characters those regiments would be ok with losing their doctrine since you're bringing them for theit strats and orders. Might be something worth trying if you have the CP to spare for a patrol.
The DKOK Death Riders are NOT Legends though and they're actually one of the main reasons to ally Krieg alongside non-degrading Vehicles atm, so there's no real loss due to IG lacking competitive choices
It seems it would be handy to be able to take out key buffing characters I keep reading about, like the SM apothecary and sangy preist.
I like idea of using a strike fighter, as mentioned earlier, which seems a very 'guard' way of doing it, but how do you rate the actual Assassins?
I am about to pull the trigger on a couple of old-school models. The new ones seem to be stuck to scenery which is bound to get in the way when trying to be stealthy.
It seems it would be handy to be able to take out key buffing characters I keep reading about, like the SM apothecary and sangy preist.
I like idea of using a strike fighter, as mentioned earlier, which seems a very 'guard' way of doing it, but how do you rate the actual Assassins?
I am about to pull the trigger on a couple of old-school models. The new ones seem to be stuck to scenery which is bound to get in the way when trying to be stealthy.
I do not know the new sniper rules, if any, but the Guard can (or used to?) get sniper rifles left and right and with some of them being BS4 as well; Command Squads, Veterans and Ratlings. Then you get the BS3 SWSs with 3 of them backed by 3 lasguns for extra shots/wounds that can also get orders and worse case the infantry squads as well. Also only a couple of points.
An assassin sounds good, yet again, it would depends on the assassin and how you use it; it would take down whatever you're aiming for barring bad rolls, but won't last long after that, and can't secure objectives as well.
SWS are bs4+.
command squads are bs3+, as are veterans and ratlings.
All of those can get orders except ratlings, which lack the regiment keyword.
The best sniper rules however, are probably mordian's form firing squad order -- few weapons snipe as well as the plasma rifle, and even the laurels can be used to stack FRFSRF with "snipe that man". Sniper weapons are well and good -- but plasma is a guard's best friend.
But. I am confused. Are you telling me that gaurdsmen aren't supposed to die for the cause?
Also, its gaurd, the most reroll 1 ish army in the game. Cause you can have as many as 16 orders a turn, not counting the effects of relics, from your command staff, if you are serious about keeping plasma alive.
Dukeofstuff wrote: But. I am confused. Are you telling me that gaurdsmen aren't supposed to die for the cause?
Also, its gaurd, the most reroll 1 ish army in the game. Cause you can have as many as 16 orders a turn, not counting the effects of relics, from your command staff, if you are serious about keeping plasma alive.
I was half joking. In the games I've played, even with re-rolls, my Plasmas (which I typically bury in my Infantry Squads) seem to roll more ones than they do hits, although most of the time I'm ordering FRFSRF as I'm either in Rapid Fire range or simply want to tag a unit for the Cadian strategem.
Surprisingly enough, my Scions seem to do better, so that's where I've been bringing them lately.
I enjoy the hilarity of the plasma foibles. How many opponents ask "Are you sure you want to overcharge?"
You always have to give a good response: "He is worthy to die for the Emperior!" or "We die like men!"
I saw a cool bit of terrain where someone had given a small skeleton a Cadian helmet and a plasma gun
Plasma and melta vets are my favorite infantry these days.
he never misses except on a nat 1 with his gun, it wounds infantry on 2+ no matter what, and is ap3 and ignores cover, too it ignores lookoutsir and it ignores invuln shields. it does d3 damage except a wound roll of 6, it does d6 damage. it also does 1 MW on a 3+, then roll for a second on a 4+, then roll for a third on a 5+ then roll for a fourth on a 6+ it also gains you a cp if it kills a character. it also has a 1 cp strat to shoot a separate target (fire again) this shoot phase. sadly, that target is also limited by line of sight, and by the range of the gun (72 inches), and by the inability to earn a second free command point because that strategem, while free, is one per phase. it also does d3 mortal wounds (with a strat) to a vehicle "if a hit is scored" (or monster). So you can put d3 mortal wounds on a keeper of secrets by not rolling a 1 on a d6. Other than that, he is also -1 to be hit, or -2 while in cover, and a character. 100 points, I think its fair costed for a gaurd model.
I really hate viewing damage in terms of maximum potential. Expected damage/reliability is far more useful a point of comparison.
For a Vindicare, the chance of you getting a wound through is about 60% when considering a 2+ hit, 2+ wound, 6+ save without rerolls anywhere (which are only available through CP).
D3 wounds isn't amazing, and the chance of proccing the D6 is slim, the exploding mortal wounds is likely only to cause an extra 1-2 wounds.
So, the Vindicare has approximately a 60% chance of causing 2-4 wounds to a target.
Based on that, I'd say it'd be lucky (but plausible) to kill a power armoured marine character in one shot. Although it's more likely two-three shots, especially if they're a Terminator or Gravis.
That's why I say they're fairly decent, but not amazing. Don't expect your 100pt Vindicare to snipe a bloody path through a Space Marine army on the first turn. But he'll make them sweat and probably get a kill or maybe two.
Although on the flip side, the new character rules make him more difficult to protect, so you may want to leave a backfield squad next to him to keep him protected. Perhaps some mortars or something.
Well, a regular sniper doing 3+/4+/3+ does an average of 0.22 wounds. So that'd be an IG Veteran firing at a regular Space Marine for example.
I had a look online and someone has done a more detailed analysis of the Vindicare which gives an average wounds per turn of about 2.5. So you'd need a squad of 10 veteran snipers to match him on damage output alone against a MeQ.
The Vindicare would get exponetially better against 2+ or better saves though. A 2+ armour save instead of 3+ would halve the damage output of the regular snipers, but only reduce the Vindicare's by 20%.
Although it's worth pointing out that the variance on the Vindicare is far higher. 5 snipers would fairly consistently do 1 wound to a target, but will very rarely do much more than that.
Whereas a Vindicare will cause no damage at all ~1/3 of the time, yet is quite capable of one-shotting a character with a some luck.
Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes
bat702 wrote: Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes
The ASF is perhaps the best Aircraft IG has access to but its output is a bit unrealiable for 165 pts; Krieg Rapier Laser Batteries on the other hand are awesome and well worth their points
How many gaurd snipers would it take extra to account for their having to step in from strategic reserves to get in 30 inch range of the target without being first destroyed by hungry bolterfire. Corollary .. since reserves don't do anythign turn 1, and the vindicaire can shoot at TWO of his foes each turn, how many gaurd snipers does it take to kill 3 marine characters on turn 2, and how many of those can the average marine army kill with its 10 or so autobolter intercessers (60 shots) and perhaps another 100 bolters from other sources? The autobolter unit may have to advance, spend some cp, and pay even to be in "all three phases" so its stuff is all ap-1 as well, if that helps the math, but assume the cagey marine player just sent it forward alone to slaughter gaurd (backed up by maybe 90 other boltershots or assault cannon shots off of various other units, but nary an officer in sight or range.). So a mere 150 shots hit the gaurd side, wounding only 100 gaurd, but killing somewhere more than the 67 expected because the marines are in "that phase" on 60 shots, and probably 30 or 40 of them are assault cannnons. So after losing 80 gaurd bodies (starting with command squads, then special weapons teams, then veterans squads, then regular gaurds troops 10 mans with a sniper each, how many snipers remain to shoot again on turn 3? Cause the vindicaire takes two more potshots then.
I don't mean this as snark -- I am merely demonstrating why I think that its not correct to describe the vindicaire as "wonky" compared to normal gaurd. Its actually far more consistant and reliable, when you remember that gaurd armies have the three problems of range, need to move, and counterfire, while a vindicaire against the back line of the board often need merely worry about fields of LOS.
Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.
The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.
Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.
It's an excellent point that Vindicare are more survivable, more mobile, and better against a wider range of targets than snipers.
In general I'd say regular snipers are pretty terrible, Vindicare are pretty good.
I'm not sure how they interact with doctrines though.
I believe as long as you spend the CP + reinforcement points to add them to your army before a game they don't ruin any detachment doctrines.
like inquisitors, vindicaire have no effect on doctrines, and you may include one per "core" detachment (patrol, battalion, or brigade). They are under their own rule (I think its called "agents of the imperium" which is the same mechanic that lets you bring an inquisitor (you can't do both in one detachment) without affecting anything. They don't even remove superdoctrines.
Dukeofstuff wrote: like inquisitors, vindicaire have no effect on doctrines, and you may include one per "core" detachment (patrol, battalion, or brigade). They are under their own rule (I think its called "agents of the imperium" which is the same mechanic that lets you bring an inquisitor (you can't do both in one detachment) without affecting anything. They don't even remove superdoctrines.
Right, Agents of the Imperium allows you to field one assassin without taking a detachment slot or interfering with the army doctrines. If you take all 4 of them you can field them in a special vanguard detachment with 0 cp cost.
bat702 wrote: Im looking at the forgeworld sheets, and the Avenger strike fighter and lasier rapier batteries dont look that bad, it appears the strike fighter gets its las cannons for free, at 165 pts it kind of looks very points efficient, the rapier batteries arent so bad when you compare their fire power to like an armored sentinel only packing one lascannon, their 36" range is perfect for the smaller board sizes
The ASF is perhaps the best Aircraft IG has access to but its output is a bit unrealiable for 165 pts; Krieg Rapier Laser Batteries on the other hand are awesome and well worth their points
I don't own a ASF, but I do own a Thunderbolt, how is it looking currently? I'm not even sure of it's current options as I have yet to see it's current data sheet, can it still take additional missiles?
I don't own a ASF, but I do own a Thunderbolt, how is it looking currently? I'm not even sure of it's current options as I have yet to see it's current data sheet, can it still take additional missiles?
If wahapedia is up to date, (and it has been updated since the last round of changes to forgeworld), then it's 210 points, with a rack of hellstrike missiles for an extra 20.
Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.
The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.
Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.
M.
Vindicaire are interesting. On one hand, they're very scary. On the other hand, I've seen them kill one of my models exactly once, and that was a tech priest engineer at the height of their use in 8th. I have an admech dominus who has not only survived being shot multiple times by a vindicaire, but gone on to kill said vindicaire by shooting him to death. Hilariously uncommon and really only possible because the opponent was a knight army, but yeah.
I think the true value of the Vindicaire is not what he can actually kill, but the pyschological effect it has on the opponent. He's got a better chance at dropping a character than anything else out there, and when he rolls hot he can really do some damage, but you have no way of knowing till he takes the shot. While I have a somewhat dismissive attitude towards them because my opponents seem to be very unlucky, I can't deny that I still heavily consider where I move models when one is on the table, especially with how fragile many guard characters are.
Plus, with assassinate being a pretty big secondary objective, the Vindicaire can actively rack up VP too, so its got its upsides. I don't run one, but I can see a lot of good reasons to do so. After all, there's really not a single list out there that he can't do something against. Even pure vehicle or monster lists he can be good to force that last few damage through on a very heavily damaged unit. He has his weaknesses to be sure, namely terrain and finding a good firing spot, but overall there's far worse units to run.
Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.
Nah, not really. Scout sentinels do have 9"+9"+12" threat range, but they are pretty squishy, tend to sit in the open and doesn't really do that much damage. In theory they can limit your opponents deep strike possibilities in turn two, which can be useful if you go second and if they survive.
I think gaurd's best hordeclear is probably those two mortar squads you spent the same amount of points on, who simultaneously camp a backfield objective and fire all those shots (6d6) each round. By the time the 3 sentinals get there, you have hit the foe with 12d6 shots and the enemy is grinding his teeth in frustration that he has no line of sight to shoot his lascannon back at you.
Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.
The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.
Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.
M.
Vindicaire are interesting. On one hand, they're very scary. On the other hand, I've seen them kill one of my models exactly once, and that was a tech priest engineer at the height of their use in 8th. I have an admech dominus who has not only survived being shot multiple times by a vindicaire, but gone on to kill said vindicaire by shooting him to death. Hilariously uncommon and really only possible because the opponent was a knight army, but yeah.
I think the true value of the Vindicaire is not what he can actually kill, but the pyschological effect it has on the opponent. He's got a better chance at dropping a character than anything else out there, and when he rolls hot he can really do some damage, but you have no way of knowing till he takes the shot. While I have a somewhat dismissive attitude towards them because my opponents seem to be very unlucky, I can't deny that I still heavily consider where I move models when one is on the table, especially with how fragile many guard characters are.
Plus, with assassinate being a pretty big secondary objective, the Vindicaire can actively rack up VP too, so its got its upsides. I don't run one, but I can see a lot of good reasons to do so. After all, there's really not a single list out there that he can't do something against. Even pure vehicle or monster lists he can be good to force that last few damage through on a very heavily damaged unit. He has his weaknesses to be sure, namely terrain and finding a good firing spot, but overall there's far worse units to run.
I mostly agree. It's not the straight killing power but how it limits the opponent choices. From having a SM captain strolling around the objectives to having to wait in cover or the Vindicare can get that lucky shot that will total said captain.
I love taking an Execution Force to games, 400 pts in just 4 miniatures is Godsent, and I'm notoriously unlucky with the other assassins, but the Vindicare it's always that psychological threat you mentioned, perched on a tall building, looking down for prey to shoot, no saves, no LoS... makes even experienced players really nervous when their game plan depends on thos or that character.
So wait, if I'm reading this correctly, a Chimera with a multilaser and hull heavy bolter is 75 points? Yet, a Taurox is 90? Why would we ever take a Taurox?
I only glanced over the new points, but one thing I find really weird: the Multilasers on the Carnodon are now the same price as autocannons, heavy bolters and heavy flamers (15 points each) while they still seem to cost 5 on the Chimera. 15 points for heavy 3, S6, AP 0, d1... Okay...?
Pyroalchi wrote: I only glanced over the new points, but one thing I find really weird: the Multilasers on the Carnodon are now the same price as autocannons, heavy bolters and heavy flamers (15 points each) while they still seem to cost 5 on the Chimera. 15 points for heavy 3, S6, AP 0, d1... Okay...?
I don't see Multilaser on the Chimera listing at all, I assume that means its cost is baked into the unit cost?
The Taurox price is still abysmally high, 2 autocannons is decent firepower and all, but its not that great considering how fragile a platform its mounted on.
Vanquisher Battle cannon is essentially free, and still not worth it.
Overall my army list went down a tiny bit, so the points seem to even out if you have a relatively balanced army.
Yes, the munitorum field manual 2021 seems to have retured to the layout that we had during 5-6-7-th editions : a base cost of the unit with its base weapons included, then a list of options. For example a lot of vehicles had their mandatory hull heavy bolter (or heavy flamer) costs rolled into their base cost. There is a further rounding to multiples of 5, compared to 8th edition, then Chapter Approved 2020.
I have browsed through the lists and here are the modifications, per unit, color coded (ex. red = +10% or more) by sign and proportion :
The characters : Colonel Straken ,Commissar Yarrick ,Company commander , Creed , Lord Commissar , Primaris psyker , Tempestor prime , Sergeant Kell, Master of ordnance , Ministorum priest ,
Nork deddog , Officer of the fleet , Ogryn Bodyguard , Platoon commander , Sergeant Harker , Severina Raine , Sly Marbo , Techpriest enginseer , : no change
Commander Pask : +15 points on hull but 15 points rebate on turrets costs = no change.
Tank commander : +20 points and -15 points on turret weapons = +5 points
Conscripts : no change
infantry squad : +5 points
Militarum Tempestus Scions : no change
Astropath : +10 points
Bullgryns : - 8 points / model
Command squad : +1 point, weapons : no change
Commissar : +5 points
Crusaders : power sword now included - 4 points / model
Militarum Tempestus command squad : no change
Ogryns : no change
Ratlings : no change
Servitors (unit of 4) : +2 points
Special weapons squad : +4 points
Veterans squad : +5 points
Wyrdvane psykers : no change
Armouded sentinels : multi-laser included, no change
Scout Sentinels : multi-laser included, no change
Hellhound : hull HB and turret included in the price with a rebate, multi-melta overcost unchanged = - 10 points
Devil dog : - 10 points, see hellhound
Bane wolf : - 10 points
Basilisk, Deathstrike, Hydra, Manticore, Wyvern : no change
Heavy weapons squad : -1 point, overcost of LC and ML unchanged
LRBT : +10 hull, -15 turret weapons = -5 points
Chimera : multi-laser included + rebate = -10 points
Taurox , Taurox prime : no change
Valkyrie : its wings & fuselage weapons are now included, no change
I believe that the Hellhound variants actually went down in points, as their weapons no longer cost anything. For example, the Inferno Cannon used to cost 10 points in the previous MFM.
CommunistNapkin wrote: I believe that the Hellhound variants actually went down in points, as their weapons no longer cost anything. For example, the Inferno Cannon used to cost 10 points in the previous MFM.
Good catch, I did not realise that turret weapons of Hellhound and Devildog were not free in Chapter Approved 2020.
Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.
What's fascinating about this is GW is known for some stupid balance changes, but this is something else. If I didn't know better I would say this was done solely to screw with battlescribe. If you look at units that were changed, like the infantry squad or command squad, it breaks how their points are normally done, i.e. per model. They also went out of their way to make the special weapon squad weapons a different cost than any other unit in the codex, they pay 3 for their weapon, be it flamer, gl, plasma, or melta. Regular guard units pay the 5pts with the 10pt cost on melta and plasma for vets. Yet in reality all it does is mark up the SWS by 4 points when it's said and done. The CCS got a one point increase to the squad total, everything else stayed the same. This really isn't a big deal for the average player, but if you've ever fooled around with a Battlescribe roster editor you know this will be annoying. Not insurmountable, but it will require a good bit of work to fix since you fundamentally have to restructure how points are calculated for several units. If all the codexes have random nonsensical tweaks like this, Battlescribe will be out of date for a few weeks, coincidentally right when GW is really trying to push their home grown app.
It's the only theory I have, since this is pretty clearly not based on which units are over or underperforming. If it was, manticores would've gotten a price hike, and Bullgryn absolutely would not have gotten even cheaper. That, or we assume GW is idiots, but given how they've been a lot better about points changes on the past year I don't think they're this incompetent.
As for dealing with it, my list is probably going up by 30-40 pts, which means I'm probably just going to cut some weapons or upgrades from somewhere. Overall it's not a big change. The secondaries will help us a bit, as will the final turn scoring for who goes second, but I dont think we got enough to help us when it comes to secondaries. Tank commanders still give up 6VP, and assassinate is still 3vp, so characters overall remain a liability.
Or it could be that when your trying to balance things and you have models that are 5 points going to 6 is a 20% increase which is really dramatic where as 5.5 is only a 10% increase and might he more balanced
If you only use whole numbers it's fine for tanks but to sweeping for cheap models like guardsman.
Although I'm not sure they needed an increase of 10% they certainly wouldn't need 20%
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salted Diamond wrote: Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.
If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon
Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155
Perhaps you chaps can enlighten me. How do points updates work in 40k? is it bi-annually? I can't see a new 'munitorum field manual 2021' for sale anywhere? Is it all on the GW app?
edit: found it, on WH community faq downloads page
looks like wahapedia has updated already; that's pretty impressive.
Salted Diamond wrote: Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.
If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon
Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155
So are they baked into the cost of things like the Manticore and Basilisk as their entry have no cost option for Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer?
Salted Diamond wrote: Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.
If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon
Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155
So are they baked into the cost of things like the Manticore and Basilisk as their entry have no cost option for Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer?
Correct. If a weapon or wargear has no points entry for that unit, it doesn't have a points cost to refund, so it's "baked in" to the hull cost, and any replacements won't have a points reduction for removing it.
Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?
In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.
As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?
Pyroalchi wrote: Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?
In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.
As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?
GWDevs have made it pretty obvious what they want now.
Replace all your overpriced, flimsy infantry that bleeds VP with super cheap and tanky Bullgryn or Death Riders which give up far less VP and perform better.
Valkyrie with full load still same, but a low end valkyrie with crap weaponry seems to be 10 points more. They baked the price of the MRP into it and hellfire missle went "up" by 10 as a result.
Pyroalchi wrote: Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?
In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.
As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?
Where did they say they're trying to make the units multiples of 5? Because the special weapon squad, no matter how you take it, is 49pts now, whereas before it was 45 any ways you took it, ignoring sniper rifles. Not to mention infantry squads can still be made into cost like 67pts if you give the unit a sniper rifle or a bolt pistol.
Like I said, these changes make no sense unless you're actively trying to mess with the Battlescribe folks. They're definitely not balance related, that's for sure. We know this because GW themselves posted an article not even a month ago with IG's garbage winrate, and the few units we have that are strong either got price reductions or stayed the same.
If they went down at all I can use them again!!!
This is a surprisingly balanced cost reduction in gaurd resilience forces, with the lower bullygrn unit cost, and the free mauls for ogryn bodygaurds.
Its almost not crazy!
Dukeofstuff wrote: If they went down at all I can use them again!!!
This is a surprisingly balanced cost reduction in gaurd resilience forces, with the lower bullygrn unit cost, and the free mauls for ogryn bodygaurds.
Its almost not crazy!
Pretty much. Its basically completed the shift that started with the points changes from 8th to 9th.
Infantry Squads -> out
Bullgryn, Riders, etc -> in
Infantry Squads have gone up 37.5% since 8th.
Give us objsec on our specialist infantry in the codex and we are good.
Powerswords seem baked in now. They were 20 with swords, now 16
You are right, I missed another baked-in price.
Will amend my list.
I'm still scratching my head over what happened to the Baneblade and variants.
Previously (MFM-2020) it was like this :
basic Baneblade (385) + vehicle autocannon (15) + demolisher cannon (20) + twin heavy bolter (30) = 450 points
Baneblade with a pair of sponsons : 450 + twin heavy bolters (+30*2) + two laser cannons (+20*2) = 550 points
Baneblade with two pairs of sponsons : 450 + twin heavy bolters (+30*4) + two laser cannons (+20*4) = 650 points
MFM-2021 :
basic Baneblade (450) all weapons now included, except twin heavy bolters (+50) = 500 points
Baneblade with a pair of sponsons : 500 + heavy bolters (50*2), laser cannon free = 600 points
Baneblade with two pairs of sponsons : 500 +50*4 = 700 points
WTF +50 points on a vehicle already gathering dust (or melta shots) ??
Is that right ?
I suspect they meant for the twin heavy bolters +_50 to be actually "sponsoon with" and for the non sponsoon twin heavy bolters to be free.
That would be aka the same price. Someoen shoutld tell them of the typo, as its likely that some helpful intern edited it out "gosh, its unnecessary to say sponsoon, the model people can find where the bolters fit on the model." That helpful copy editor (see? they DO have one) in his only act of attempted editing for the entire year, successfully screwed us all.
Scions have some stealth discounts, taurox primes with autocannons are now 10 points off and regular scions can get a free plasma pistol on the tempestor - almost certainly a typo though!
Insularum wrote: Scions have some stealth discounts, taurox primes with autocannons are now 10 points off and regular scions can get a free plasma pistol on the tempestor - almost certainly a typo though!
You want a Rod of Command on the Tempestor most of the time. So a bit of a meh discount.
Insularum wrote: Scions have some stealth discounts, taurox primes with autocannons are now 10 points off and regular scions can get a free plasma pistol on the tempestor - almost certainly a typo though!
You want a Rod of Command on the Tempestor most of the time. So a bit of a meh discount.
M.
Tempestor as in squad sergeant not Tempestor Prime the HQ, so 5 points of gear per squad for free.
Inquisition Acolytes are plain broken at 9 ppm with Special Weapons included...you can have 18 Plasma/Melta for 162 mere points and if you go with a Xeno Inquisitor you can also pay 3 CP to strategic reserve them all and have the Inquisitor cast Psychic Veil to turn give them old 8TH Character Protection (bonus if you also take another Inquisitor for Psychic Pursuit shenanigans)
130pts for 2x5 meltagun wielding acolytes and 2x jokaeros. Jump out of a chimera and reroll all hits, all wounds or both is just brutal.
I don't think I'd ever play them like that but I hope it stays as it is. Inquisition as a faction are barely playable these days so taking advantage of this to have a couple of free special weapons in your acolyte squads will go at least someway to mitigating that.
I'd be surprised if anyone is playing inquisition to min/max anyway...
I already have plans for a malleus warlord psyker jokaro who can throw paychic pursuit and convert his squad of acolytes to sniper plasmas. While an inquisitor gives the second squad a reroll 1 and the jokaro ofthethird grants random abilities tothem.
Oddly there is no limit on the number of times an inquisition warlord trait appears to be useable. Perhaps cause folk imagined its never going to be spammed, so for 2 cp you can end up with 2 psykers in a single inquisition detachment (one 2 cast, 2 deny, 3 spells) and the OTHER one only 1 cast of his spell.) Still, its pretty awesomely cool to imagine the jokaro brain and its hardwired psychic smite components pouring energy into the attack while the monkeigh screams "AT THEM MY PRETTIES" and turns their plasma guns up to 11.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ofcourse I was assemblingth models for this before the price hike which is simply a bonus on what i already expected.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Inquisition Acolytes are plain broken at 9 ppm with Special Weapons included...you can have 18 Plasma/Melta for 162 mere points and if you go with a Xeno Inquisitor you can also pay 3 CP to strategic reserve them all and have the Inquisitor cast Psychic Veil to turn give them old 8TH Character Protection (bonus if you also take another Inquisitor for Psychic Pursuit shenanigans)
I would wait to see if that's what GW actually intends before you start your conversions...
Yeah, you are right -- but I was building them before the typo cause I actually want to run them. It seems the perfect thing to do with my deathfields conversions, since I now have something like 12 weapons already assembled that look like a modified plasma rifle, I can call those combil\plasmsa. Add in a monkey and inquisitor, and its a good little group even without the cheesy cheapness. Least I think so.
Smotejob wrote: With the rules updates, can our armor lists be competitive now?
Slightly better yes, competitive no...
Issues with guard and especially armor lists is fundamental. 9th is designed for movement and holding objectives not slow gunlines. Armor isn’t durable enough nor can they hold objectives. Troops aren’t fast or durable enough to secure them either. Even more durable vehicles such as knights struggle. Look at what armies are doing best in 9th... killer clowns, primarus, orks, DG...these armies rely on speed and troop durability
The good news is bullgryns got better
One thing I would like to hear the opinion of more experienced players about:
I do got it right, that barebones Multilaser Chimeras dropped from 85 points (?) to 65? That seems really cheap for a relatively big box of 10 T7 wounds. And with a Heavy Bolter Infantrysquad at 65 points, those two have almost the same output.
I wonder if there can be made something tactical out of using cheap chimeras as expendable "blocks" to hinder movement (and keep charge distances to more juicy stuff long), charge them into stuff just to keep it from shooting etc. At almost the price of an Infantry Squad they are no big loss, and can keep stuff they touch occupied longer than our 10 S3 dudes.
But I'm aware that they also count for bring it down (at least just 1 point, but still), so maybe this idea is dump. Any opinions?
I read it as Multilaser included, and hull heavy bolter or flamer is 10 points, makes barebones 75, still seems cheap, and good for blocking the board up
I read it as 65 with ML and Hull Bolter, + 10 when you want to switch the ML up to Bolter/Flamer.
Otherwise the Hull Bolter would be 10 instead of the usual 15, which would be odd. Also judging from the Hellhound, Basilisk and Hydra, Hull weapons are price included.
Hull weapons are only price included when the weapons don't have a points value.
So on Hellhounds, Basilisks, and Hydras they're price included.
On the Chimera they're not.
The fact that a Chimera's heavy flamer/bolter is slightly cheaper means that part of their cost is already included in the base chassis, but not all.
It's just a necessary factor based on how they're presenting points now. So barebones is 75.
kirotheavenger wrote: Hull weapons are only price included when the weapons don't have a points value.
So on Hellhounds, Basilisks, and Hydras they're price included.
On the Chimera they're not.
The fact that a Chimera's heavy flamer/bolter is slightly cheaper means that part of their cost is already included in the base chassis, but not all.
It's just a necessary factor based on how they're presenting points now. So barebones is 75.
Don't think that's right. The way they present points now seems to be the minimal load out. So MultiLaser in the turret and Heavy Bolter/Flamer in the hull is 65pts, down from 85pts. You literally can't take anything more off it.
You can swap between HB and HF on the hull for free because they are the same price.
You can upgrade to HB or HF on the turret for 10pts because you've already paid 5 for the Multilaser.
80pts for twin heavy flamer chimeras with trackguards just seem ace for swarming objectives. Toast whatever's on the objective then charge it, hopefully survive combat, opponent has to either fall back or kill the chimera in combat. If they kill it you disembark with a unit of guardsmen who can hopefully hold the objective for the remainder of their turn and you control the objective at the start of your turn. If they don't kill it they get cooked again.
There aren't points listed for "swap X weapon for Y, +10pts", they use a different format.
They only list points for "for every weapon X, + 10pts" "[Y has no points value so is 0pts]".
@ KurtAngle2: ah, that clears that up. 75 is stilly pretty darn cheap for what it does. And as Abaddon says: Hellhounds are also nice at that price. But I'm in the most literal sense an armchair general and haven gotten any games yet. So my question remains: has anybody game experience, if using chimeras as expendable road blocks is a way to go? Does this have tactical value or is this idea a dead end and I should not waste time thinking it through?
Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.
Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.
It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.
It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.
So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.
Abaddon303 wrote: Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.
Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.
It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.
It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.
So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.
Abaddon303 wrote: Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.
Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.
It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.
It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.
So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.
The Chimera with a heavy bolter is 100% 75 points. The unit is listed as 65 and heavy bolters are listed below it at +10. 65+10=75. The Munitorum Field Manual says:
"You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit)."
For something to be free it must not be listed in the unit's entry. Heavy bolters are listed at +10. You cannot add them for free.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Makes one wonder if the new codex chimera will have 2 multilasers base.
There is no second multi-laser in the Chimera kit, so there will be no Chimera configuration like that in the next codex.
Rules are there to support selling kits guys, don't forget that.
As for the no model = no rules policy, I wonder if they will retire the veteran squad into legends status ?
Dukeofstuff wrote: Makes one wonder if the new codex chimera will have 2 multilasers base.
There is no second multi-laser in the Chimera kit, so there will be no Chimera configuration like that in the next codex.
Rules are there to support selling kits guys, don't forget that.
As for the no model = no rules policy, I wonder if they will retire the veteran squad into legends status ?
Probably not as they can take 3 special weapons, but you'd need to buy multiple kits to get that many as each kit only comes with one so more kits sold.
They sell two kits which can be easily used as Veterans (Command Squads and Infantry Squads).
So I doubt they'll get Legend-ed, but it's possible. I still wish they were Troops again.
Abaddon303 wrote: Sure, they don't give you a price for the weapon you are swapping out, but it's clearly factored into the replacement cost.
Like armoured sentinel went up five points but includes the price of the multilaser which was a 5pt upgrade. To swap that for a lascannon it's 15pts which was a 20pt upgrade. They've discounted the cost of the ML.
It's the same for units that didn't just increase by their cheapest loadout. Chaos terminators get force weapons for free now (worth 5pts) but to upgrade it to a powerfist it's +5pts (powerfists are generally a 10pt upgrade.
It's pretty consistently like that throughout the new points system.
So I'm pretty sure the price value they give you for the HB on the Chimera is to upgrade the turret. The hull mounted HB is included in the 65pts.
No again
Hmm, okay i agree. I think i had it in my head the base cost always incorporated the cheapest loadout. The chimera is a slightly weird one because you can upgrade it with a weapon that it also is forced to take as a minimum. I thought I had my head around how it works now but clearly not! Apologies...
Check out the poor Baneblade though, it seems they forgot that it has a Twin Heavy Bolter as default, and tried to minimise the options listed by having the price of sponsons solely on the Twin Heavy Bolter (since the lascannons are free, and Twin Heavy Bolters/Flamers are 50pts).
Which means that the Baneblade and it's variants all went up 50pts in price. Which is great, they were so OP to start with .
kirotheavenger wrote: Check out the poor Baneblade though, it seems they forgot that it has a Twin Heavy Bolter as default, and tried to minimise the options listed by having the price of sponsons solely on the Twin Heavy Bolter (since the lascannons are free, and Twin Heavy Bolters/Flamers are 50pts).
Which means that the Baneblade and it's variants all went up 50pts in price. Which is great, they were so OP to start with .
Yeah, this one was pretty disappointing to me since I got a Baneblade for Christmas. It seems to me like it was probably a mistake(one of many throughout the book), but I am not sure that they will ever bother to address it. It would be really nice to see the errata on this errata since there are so many mistakes throughout it.
I too bought a Baneblade for Christmas!
It's such a shame, I looove the model (well the casemates more than the actual Baneblade) and would like to run them without kneecapping myself *quite* so decisively.
This may not be exactly the right thread for this, but has anyone felt a sudden urge to go PL only/Stillmania after the FAQ? Something about the point changes for infantry units just makes me not want to waste any more time on tweaking lists.
I want to jump games and play Grimdark Future with my toys instead. Although that's for many long standing issues with 40k, the fact that rather than addressing them they just rubbed salt in *again* is only a small factor.
waefre_1 wrote: This may not be exactly the right thread for this, but has anyone felt a sudden urge to go PL only/Stillmania after the FAQ? Something about the point changes for infantry units just makes me not want to waste any more time on tweaking lists.
Me and my mates decided to drop points and just use PLs for the time being. Once more codexes are released we might go back to points,
PL is ridiculous, unbalanced, unfair. Two SM company vets have PL 3, add one more and PL goes to 8. 50% more models means an increase of 266% in PL. A dreadnought is PL7. Are three company vets, with bolt pistols and boltguns, more powerful than a dreadnought with CCW, stormbolter, and an assault cannon ? Company vets have 19 (!) weapon choices, but PL stays the same. You cant put the power of a unit in one number. One army with PL 50 can have 1000 pts., while another army with the same PL can have 1250 pts., or even more, because weapons dont count.
Manticores are a bit tricky to get, and I currently (temporarily) don't have the ability (or desire) to assemble and paint the amount of Bullgryns I'd need. Beyond friendly games, I'll wait for the codex.
Not sure if everyone touched on this previously, but with hellhounds going down 10 pts, yes it still gives 2 victory points, but the real advantage is you can put a multi-melta in a guard army on a super durable platform imo, also they really need to just change the chem-cannon to 12 inches already, but this wont happen until the guard codex drops, sometime in ~2025 I wrecken
Its not terrible. I believe it has a role and think it will be interesting to see it in play -- but that's not a very resilient platform by any means. If it were, we would see armies of razorbacks crawling over the board, chasing terrified eradicators into the backfield.
.
Dukeofstuff wrote: Its not terrible. I believe it has a role and think it will be interesting to see it in play -- but that's not a very resilient platform by any means. If it were, we would see armies of razorbacks crawling over the board, chasing terrified eradicators into the backfield.
.
Honestly tho the biggest problem its still facing is that its 2 victory points to kill it, 3 if they thin their ranks, it would actually be stronger if it had 1 less wound
The only useful weapon on a hellhound is inferno cannon and heavy flamer, both auto hit. Add track guards and you have a 28" threat range, even with 1 wound. Your multi melta hits on 4+, and degrades. It doesnt take long and you hit on 5+, with -1 to hit you hit on 6s, which makes it useless.
I'm coming round to trying a few multi-melta's on devildogs in Guard with all there buffs at 120pts. Just a couple sprinkled in. I'd be playing them as either Vostoryan or Cadian so that your hitting on 3+ with firstborn pride or overlapping fields of fire with relic of lost cadia.
Metagame changes
- Guard plasma guns, heavy bolters, autocannon , etc are no longer as effective against prevalent -1 damage reduction. Even full payload manticores are mediocre against it. Demolsiher Russes are ok in moderation but are expensive for how comparatively fragile they currently are.
Recent tasty Buffs
- MM damage and 2 shots.
- Bring it down reduced to 2VP.
- Points drop in FAQ.
I think "useless" is a histrionic overstatement. There are places it would be more useful than a flamertank, and places less useful, and the art of the matter is guessing which you will face and arranging the one you need.
Devildogs are are still medium tanks that get blasted off the table quickly due to multi-melta attack bikes, Eradicators, Retributors, Obliterators and similar stuff.
Sure at 120 points they are not in such a bad spot as LRBT 's but still. I'm pretty reluctant to consider most direct-fire AM vehicles now, considering the opposition.
Maybe cheap single sentinels.
If you need meltaguns, you can alternatively take outflanking veterans squads (95 points) and fully fledged scions squads (130-135 points, objective secured).
They will not get vaporized instantly due to the aforementioned anti-tank units.
The weak point wiht the melta is the same as the weak point with standard plasma .. its effective range is 12 inches, and even a poorly placed screen can often start you back far enough to be unable to target the juicy stuff in the center. After dropping on the board, that means scions with meltas have an "effective penetration range" of 3 inches.
At least the hellhounds are moving forward their full move and then firing another 24 inches in, an effective range limited not by the enemy's actions nearly as much as by where they start their runs. Gaurd doesn't have a lot of highly mobile assets that are vehicles and also shoot multimeltas right now. (Pity we lost elysia, their sentinals WERE multimelta equipped, and were drop sentinals, to boot.)
I don't know if some of you have glanced over the lists in the other topic reporting about the tournament in Perth, Australia. One of the top lists (place 3) were sisters with an almost maxed out outrider detachment of Deathriders (2 Commanders, 3 x 4 Command Squads, 3 x 9 normal ones). So I guess they really work quite good.
Pyroalchi wrote: I don't know if some of you have glanced over the lists in the other topic reporting about the tournament in Perth, Australia. One of the top lists (place 3) were sisters with an almost maxed out outrider detachment of Deathriders (2 Commanders, 3 x 4 Command Squads, 3 x 9 normal ones). So I guess they really work quite good.
They are fast resilient and point efficient and decent at clearing chaff.. so great at playing 9th and grabbing objectives... they just lack obj secured to make them better. And basic riders could do with another Atk to match the command squad.
But 41 death riders are expensive and not likely to survive another FW index beating.
I’m hesitant (and not likely) to buy more then the 20 (plus now useless commissar rider) I currently have.
Hello, Yes I have seen the list, and I'm baffled. Not by the particular player's choice but by the "metagame" in general. Needing to spend a grand in rare resin miniatures to stay in competition. Baffled by the widely spread and unquestioned acceptance of Forgeworld in the competitive scene, in what is an already expensive hobby. Forgewold miniatures, that can be discontinued without notice, in the books, as well as in their online store. Forgeworld rules, that have always been out of whack, but were OK for casual play between gentlemen. Now that we have overpowered specific units, endorsed by the main company as "legit for all games" it is way worse.
I did not have the impression FWIG units were really overpowered. The whole of 8th edition, the FW tanks were weaker than their weight in Leman Russ/Baneblade equivalents and Death Riders only became really strong with 9th. I know there is a lot of prejudice towards FW but I cannot bring myself to look at the FWIG units (exept the current iteration of Death Riders) and interpret them as broken or overpowered.
Back to topic: I cannot speak for the list in this tournament, but for my personal collection: I had 15 rough riders (by now 21) that were suddenly "invalidated" by moving to legends. So as Death Riders are still not legends these will most likely count as death riders from now on. I assume (just an assumption, mind you) the same is the case for lots of other collectors, that had rough riders. And for casual play: if you like horses, nothing keeps you from buying any cavalry and let it count as Death Riders. Even when you play in stores with a strict GW-models-only policy you can easily kitbash them from AoS cavalry with Cadian Torsos.
DR are terrible at clearing chaff. They only function as a fast tarpit and roadblock. DR Cmd Sq's hit a bit harder and are identical point for point. I take 3 squads in every list I run but hey, I play Krieg so that's hardly a surprise!
Engineers are the real sleeper hit of the new FW index. The biggest DPS unit Guard have access to imo.
The still have access to a wicked grenade -- gas bombs, wounding most things on a 2+ and ap-2 with 1 damage.
Even the mole launcher team (and a free source of indirect fire with ap-1 and s5 is nothign to look down on) has the gas bombs -- so if you grenadier strategem them and all the engineers throw d6 s2(special 2+ wounds!) / -2 / 1D shots of gas bombs, you can melta away a pile of terminators. Maybe 35 such shots, half hit, 2+ wound, so about 17 saves at ap-2, would be a real concern even for a trio of bladegaurd. Not bad for an inexpensive unit that can tunnel up in midfield quite safely.
The problem with grenade strat and engineers is the range on grenades and thier deepstrike mechanic means you have a small squad of guardsmen who can’t take special weapons in close range for at least a turn before they can use the strat. The grenade strat is a niche use that relys on your opponent not obliterating a small squad of essentially 10 guardsmen.
Unlike the death riders command squads.
Who dish out 2x str5 ap-3 damage 2 atks plus 2x str4 ap-1 damage 1 each. Max out those and commander for orders plus use 10+ Regular death riders to screen and they are decent at clearing chaff off objectives for thier points.
Grenades (if you are already in position in a transport at start of turn) have a 3+normal move's 6" + 6" range = 15inch threat range.
The combat shotguns deserve a warm footnote too. We may not have the super killer shotgun shells any more, but a reliable 3 shots of s4 per body firing is not terribly bad -- because this unit can pop up anywhere without really needing an officer to FRFSRF the guns. You probably could see sending a couple 5 man engeneers forward as very cheap "grab a board sector" for recon, or to place homing beacons, and to acquit themselves pretty well (potentially a threat to the marines that then have to walk over to dig them out behind some LOS blocking rubble) for the price. Absolutely consider price when looking at disposable units to stick on a back board corner somewhere to get recon, or to perform some action in your own home field. Absolutely consider that this unit is safe without CP because its underground tunnel up ability is effectively a deepstrike, and its marginally cheaper than scions. 15 shots of s4 or 5d6 grenades is not terrible for gaurd, and its bs3+ base.
If you use "easy mode" scions (with the +6 range on lasguns) you can get a 50 point squad for 4 hotshots, 1 plasma pistol, and one vox caster that probably outperforms the 5 engeneers even on drop at anti-horde, but that assumes an officer sending an order down the vox network. For just plain use in a distant corner, I think the engeneers acquit themselves pretty well.
Lets see: he is T8, W18, 3+, 4++ and disgustingly resilient.
So you would need 18 × 2 (save roll) ×6/5 (wound roll) ×3/2 (hit roll) = 64.8 acid gas shots. With d6 per engineers that's 18 engineers on average rolls. That's... impressive.
Edit: of course you can use grenadiers only once per phase, but still... two units of 80 points and 2 CP is pretty good to kill something like morty
Pyroalchi wrote: Lets see: he is T8, W18, 3+, 4++ and disgustingly resilient.
So you would need 18 × 2 (save roll) ×6/5 (wound roll) ×3/2 (hit roll) = 64.8 acid gas shots. With d6 per engineers that's 18 engineers on average rolls. That's... impressive.
Edit: of course you can use grenadiers only once per phase, but still... two units of 80 points and 2 CP is pretty good to kill something like morty
Yeah it looks really good. Banewolf's chem cannon could get in on the action as well, which would also negate his -1 to hit spell. Throw in some other shooting and a one turn kill looks possible. Not so scary now eh
The dumb thing of the devil dog is though, that it really only hits as hard as a single gasgrenade from the Engineers. The only thing it has going for it is +2'' range and +1 AP (that doesn't matter against Morty).
I factored in that the new disgustingly resilient is not a 5+++ anymore, but -1 damage (to a minimum of 1). And the new version is therefore useless against D1 weapons like gasgrenades or the devildog.
You are right of course that the DD autohits, I forgot that. Still it's awfully weak compared to engineers with gasgrenades. I mean 2 x 5 engineers for 80 points throw 2xD6 gasgrenades at BS3+ without the strat. So even when suffering -1 to hit from some aura or psycher power they would still do the same damage as the DD, which is pretty poor.
Edit: on the Math: therefore as I wrote:
you need 18 unsaved wounds. As the Gasgrenades have enough AP (-2) to trigger the InSv (4++) instead of the normal one (3+), we have to double it to 36.
Now we look at the wounding stage: the grenades wound on a 2+, so we multiply our 36 with 6/5 to 43.2.
Than comes the hit stage. The Grenadiers hit on a 3+, so 43.2 *3/2 = 64.8 (or 86.4 if they suffer -1 to hit)
That divided by 3.5 for average 3.5 shots on a D6 grenade: 18.5 Grenadiers (24.8 if they suffer -1 to hit)
I mentioned it more to note that deathriders seem to be functional in their role. Of course I can only speculate, as I did not see the matches, but as they were souped into sisters I assume they were used as cheap (for their wounds and defensive profile) fast (relativly) objective grabbers.
So if you wanted to really, really push the engeneers of dkok to their maximum, consider the following ancilliary units as "must takes".
1. an astropath. (isn't he allways?)
2. aradia madellan and 3 wyrdvanes. (they can combo up to throw a very hard to resist smite at +2, as well as aradia's special sauce +1 to hit for a unit of gaurd).
3. lord commisar yarrick (reroll 1 to hit) and an officer of the dkok nearby somewhere (reroll 1 to WOUND). Note you can also simply use (against specifically chaos) the vengance for cadia stratagem here.
4. grenadiers! strategem.
Yes, you blow about 4 or 5 cp on one unit of gaurd infantry firing, but your average 35 shots will HIT an average 33 or so times, and wound about 31. That's 16ish unsaved wounds for mortarion, or the first 10 off his hit bar, far, far more than you would normally expect an 80 point unit to be capable of.
Also, though, bring a few scions along with hotshotvolleyguns (elimination protocols order) and/or meltas (also elimination protocols order) to rip into him. If your unit is pure lambda lions, you might even try to add their own gifts of the mechnaicum strat on top of everything else and put morty down with 2 infantry units armed only with shotguns and hotshot lasguns.
And, well, half your cp, and a few buffers.
Still, its a neat thought to whip out when the chaos guy is thinking "nothing can harm me, I am mortarion!"
Best way to use Engineers is in a heavy flamer chimera, and that's it, 165pts for the complete setup, 170 if you can afford trackguards. Sure they'd like buffs but just yarrick and aradia is pretty close to another chimgineer team in points, and I prefer dispersed threats. I always take two, and run one on each flank as problem solvers, I strongly recommend giving them a shot! I do often run one or two deathrider commanders in my lists, and their movement lets you decide on the hoof whether your engineers will need backup. Plus they're about twice as tough as marshals and can chip damage in CC. They cost you cp (inspired command strat gets used basically every turn) but I like them, they sync nicely with chimgineers and deathriders...
I see, in that case we would have to multiple by 3/2 as every third wound is ignores, so roughly 27 engineers throwing grenades. Still taking over 1/3 of Morties wounds with an 80 point unit and 1 CP is more than 80 points should do.
so, people are enthused about dkok cav, about dkok engenseers, dkok rapiers, are the conquere battle tank leman russes (with triple flamer, I think?) still something people consider decent? They are lower in points now, I think they bring a nice mix of accuracy and relative independance from needing tank orders to be good.
I believe Conquerors are effectively better versions of regular Leman Russ tanks at the moment. The extra range isn't that significant but the rerolls from the co-ax is.
But that isn't saying much, as Leman Russes are pretty bad (especially with the current melta-meta) and Tank Commanders are better (but again, not great).
With every DKOK unit that gets identified as relatively good (in an IG context) I suspect dumb commentaries stating "Forgeworld is pay to win!" "Nerf DKOK already!" etc. are incomming.
And I suspect the engineers at least will see the Nerfbat pretty soon.
That's always the problem with Forgeworld, people only ever see the few OP units.
Partly because models are too expensive to buy based on coolness alone for most people.
The engeneers alerady SAW the nerfbat, they used to fire something called carcas shot shotgun rounds that were just about as good as the gas grenades, but ranged out to hit the foe.
So someone nerfted the hells out of them already, leaving a situational weapon likely to get them killed rather than an easy mode weapon that they could just tunnel up and blaze away.
My comment was more meant in the direction that even though I have only been on Dakka for a bit short of two years I heard multiple complains of "Forgeworld stuff is just broken". Mostly originating from some SM or Eldar stuff and unfairly protected on FW in general. We even had this here in the tactics thread a while ago and counterarguments in the line of "point to the IGFW unit that is broken." are usually ignored. I suspect when these same people hear IG players considering FW stuff because it might - situationally - work better in a certain roll than our usual stuff (read that as "less behind the current most effective armies than usual) they will scream for a ban of these "broken OP Forgeworld" units while carassing their completely normal GW Eradicators
kirotheavenger wrote: I believe Conquerors are effectively better versions of regular Leman Russ tanks at the moment. The extra range isn't that significant but the rerolls from the co-ax is.
But that isn't saying much, as Leman Russes are pretty bad (especially with the current melta-meta) and Tank Commanders are better (but again, not great).
My comment was more meant in the direction that even though I have only been on Dakka for a bit short of two years I heard multiple complains of "Forgeworld stuff is just broken". Mostly originating from some SM or Eldar stuff and unfairly protected on FW in general. We even had this here in the tactics thread a while ago and counterarguments in the line of "point to the IGFW unit that is broken." are usually ignored. I suspect when these same people hear IG players considering FW stuff because it might - situationally - work better in a certain roll than our usual stuff (read that as "less behind the current most effective armies than usual) they will scream for a ban of these "broken OP Forgeworld" units while carassing their completely normal GW Eradicators
Cav and engineers will eventually stop being produced regardless.. dkok and fw in general are rapidly disappearing from production. No one expects the fw index to be touched until 10th Ed.. if we are lucky dkok gets rolled into the codex as a real regiment and the rest of the dkok even if it is no longer produced will still be viable. I’ve built up a large enough force that I should be fine for a while.
Also cavalry and engineers are no where near close to overpowered. One is used on a niche grenade strat, that’s highly counterable. The other is just a just a faster point efficient unit but really isn’t that impactful.
I was scratching my head over that one too! Got a bit excited there for a moment, as I used to run 3 in a lot of lists, and thought they might be back. Ah well...
It's true engineers might have their grenades tweaked, but it's equally true that the grenadiers strat might be nerfed in the new codex... We're playing out the dying hours of an old book at the moment, after all.
Ah, crap. Someone told me they were back but only in the dkok new codex (ie the new forgeworld book) but it appears they were in error, I note there is no points value in the munitorium.
Are Conscripts worth taking? I've got a (possible) tournament coming up and I don't have any Bullgryns nor the time or (currently, physical) ability to build and paint any either. I have 10 Crusaders, but I'm wondering if I can take some of what I have (buckets of Lasgun toting Guardsmen, Straken, Priest, commissar, and Primaris Psyker) to have something else to flood an objective with and dish out a small amount of damage.
If you put the emperor's shield and then also nightshield on this pile of 30 conscripts, you have the potential to (4+ and -1 to be hit) quickly throw the strategem "go to ground" to drop them to 3+. if they are in cover taking fire, they can be at 2+ and -1 to be hit, which means massed bolterfire will be slow to kill them. Even out of cover beside the objective, 3+ to save and -1 to be hit is a powerful combination and in some situations far more resilient than buffed crusaders, and 30 obsec.
Without those buffs, they are dead to the massed bolterfire that is ninth edition, in a heartbeat, and I would agree with blackocato. With them, maybe situationally useful.
Dukeofstuff wrote: If you put the emperor's shield and then also nightshield on this pile of 30 conscripts, you have the potential to (4+ and -1 to be hit) quickly throw the strategem "go to ground" to drop them to 3+. if they are in cover taking fire, they can be at 2+ and -1 to be hit, which means massed bolterfire will be slow to kill them. Even out of cover beside the objective, 3+ to save and -1 to be hit is a powerful combination and in some situations far more resilient than buffed crusaders, and 30 obsec.
Without those buffs, they are dead to the massed bolterfire that is ninth edition, in a heartbeat, and I would agree with blackocato. With them, maybe situationally useful.
You would be better using those buffs on Bullgryn or Death Riders. Plus they give up less VP when they die and can actually fight in CC.
And for everyone considering deathriders for their rules but either not liking the models/the price ($)/working with resin: take a look at AoS Pistoleros (25€/5 guys) and the other AoS cavalry. They are really easy to convert (basically just stick a Cadian torso and head on top) and it is still 100% GW. Of course one might want to doublecheck if your gaming locality has a strict modelling policy, but as the whole model is bought from their lines they should be ok with it.
Dukeofstuff wrote: If you put the emperor's shield and then also nightshield on this pile of 30 conscripts, you have the potential to (4+ and -1 to be hit) quickly throw the strategem "go to ground" to drop them to 3+. if they are in cover taking fire, they can be at 2+ and -1 to be hit, which means massed bolterfire will be slow to kill them. Even out of cover beside the objective, 3+ to save and -1 to be hit is a powerful combination and in some situations far more resilient than buffed crusaders, and 30 obsec.
Without those buffs, they are dead to the massed bolterfire that is ninth edition, in a heartbeat, and I would agree with blackocato. With them, maybe situationally useful.
You would be better using those buffs on Bullgryn or Death Riders. Plus they give up less VP when they die and can actually fight in CC.
Well that's the thing, I don't have any at the moment and don't have the physical ability to build and paint any right now. Oh well I guess, I'll do the best I can with what I have.
What are some of the best synergies that yall e.ploy with conscripts?
I plan on having an astropath and a commisar with WLT master of command to buff and give orders.
What other ways do yall employ to boost conscripts? What regiments? What strategms? Orders? Gear? Auras? Etc?
I honestly lack practical experience, but whenever I look at conscripts my gutfeeling says buffing them (apart from wilderness survivors) is a trap. I (personally and as I said only based on intuition) would leave them barebones and use my buff characters/powers/stratagems elsewere. 100/150 points for 20-30 dudes is cheap enough to have some use on their own and with the new moral/attrition system it takes a bit to really completely remove them. If your army gives up "thin their ranks" anyway you can afford to loose them.
Sure. But as often on the thread someone asks not if something is ideal and perfect .. But how to make a cake with these substitute ingredients. An inquisitors buff power gives o e unit of onfantry 5++ shields... Rather a waste on a 10 mansquad and superfluous on bully or crysaders. If you take inquisition payker support it becomes a more reasonable option for the troop choice withith so so many individual saves to roll... While you wont see it winning at LVO anytime soon its not uselessby a long shot. Hold an onbsec claim vs a bunch of enemy with numbsrs and suddenly its not so bad. Especially if your foe spends disproportionate firepower to remove a trivial unit.
I have a question: with the change to the secondary objective 'While we stand we fight' that states it now applies to units not models, can you pick a unit of 3 tanks? If you can it makes it an objective worth seriously considering.
I note only that nine leman russes with nine plasma executioner turrets and nine heavy bolters is a cheap 1395 points, leaving 105 points for yarrick (that's a lot of reroll 1 plasmas!) and 50 for a psyker primaris, 35 for an astropath, 330 for basic infantry, and 35 for an engenseer.
Its not incredible anti-horde but its certainly not crappy at killing intercessers!
PaddyMick wrote: I have a question: with the change to the secondary objective 'While we stand we fight' that states it now applies to units not models, can you pick a unit of 3 tanks? If you can it makes it an objective worth seriously considering.
Assuming you mean something like Leman Russes that split into individual units after deployment:
If a unit splits into several smaller units during the battle, all of those separate units (excluding Drones units) must be destroyed for the original unit to count as being destroyed for the purposes of this secondary objective.’
Thank you BaconCatBug. I wonder if they intended units of tanks to be included in that, as the clearly are.
It makes it a good pick then, and something to think about when list building.
Duke, that's a tasty list. You could make one russ from each squad a bare bones battlecannon and let it hang back. Also, may be worth having them in a vanguard detachment for the obsec.
Alternative would be a couple of squads of artillery tanks (sadly not manticore), 2 or 3 strong each, and maybe a big blob of bullgryn with all the buffs.
The Munitorum Field Manual has recently been updated, looks like it's just fixed some obvious errors rather than other changes.
Only change I really noticed is Baneblades/chassis are now back to their older costs, as the 50pt for the twin heavy bolters has transferred to the lascannons (confirming that it was the sponson cost and they'd forgotten about the inbuilt guns).
I have the same reaction to the bullgrn though, in an age where so many marine elites are effectively ignore ap-1 and 3+ or 2+ saves, with 3 wounds, AND where the deathgaurd cut their damage down to 1 per hit.
Its not making it impossible to like bullygrns -- but its worrying me a bit as I think about marines also using their many options to force the bullygrns to swing last in the train of melees.
Side note, I think ratlings as midboard deployment screens may be useful right now, which isn't something I ever thougth I would ever say. Since a lot of marine armies seem to be using things that charge the whole length of a board on turn 1, or that setup in a 9 inch from your deployment zone window.
So since I have 10... How would you best put Crusaders to work these days? Seems like embeded with Catachan and some missionaries is a start... I think I'd like to try and push them up on to an objective early and even charge forward to blunt the rush of whatever's coming at the guardsman who pull up afterwards. Thoughts on how you would use them these days, or how you've seen them used well?
Sounds like an interesting challenge. I'm not up to date with the DA codex, could you give me the statline, unit size, cost and defense related special rules of the terminators?
Edit: so what I found was:
unit size 5-10
statline: T4,W3, 2+, BS3+, WS3+, A2
armament: Stormbolter + Powerfist (Sergeant has a Powersword)
cost: 38 per dude, 33 for the sergeant
alternativly: Thunderhammer + Stormshield instead of Stormbolter and Powerweapon => defence changes to 2+ (+1 from stromshield), 4++, 43 points/dude.
And they seem to get +1 on their attacks if they don't move from being dark angles?
Is this roughly correct?
So I would do a little math assuming 10 dudes each, so 370 Points for the variation without stormshield and 430 for the one with
The numbers in front of the slash are always the dudes without, behind with stormshields
1. 10 DKOK Combat Engineer with "Grenadiers" Stratagem using their Gas bombs: 35 "shots" result in 19.44/12.96 unsaved wounds for 6.48/4.32 dead Termies. As the Engineers only cost 70 Points that sounds quite efficient. Main problem would be to get them close enough
2. Hades Breaching drill with "crush them": 5 attacks transfer to 2.89/1.73 dead Termies. In the next turns (without crush them) 1.73/1.04 dead termies. But I'm not sure if it would go first in the first round. And if not it might not survive the termies CC punch before it can do anything. But if it does it might kill back its points at least.
3. other than that I can only think of Psykers... Maybe one could also bind the Termies in CC with Deathrider (they are not thaaat efficient in killing the horses) and smuggle in an infantry squad close enough to outscore them on that objective.
If I'm not off 10 Termies with their 30 attacks "just" kill about 4 Death Riders per fight phase so to clean of 20 death Riders (300 Points) they Need 5 fight phases/turns. As ong a during that time one infantry squad is Close enough to negate the Obsec, those Termies score nothing as all the Riders count.
They also have a 5++ and permanent Transhuman: each time an attack is made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have.
Also they have obsec.
The reason I am asking is they will likely be choosing a Secondary that nets them 15 points for staying on their backfield objective for the whole game.
I don't think you will see 10 man terminator squads camping on backfield objectives, you will see 5 man squads, maybe 7, but that is a lot of points left in the backfield that could be spent on terminators/ravenwing causing havoc in the opponents defensive lines.
That would reduce the damage done by the DKOK Combat engineers to "just" 1.944/1.30 dead Termies per gas bomb volley. Still not bad for a 70 points unit.
The thing with the Death Riders might still work. Especially if we assume "only" 5 Termies.
Deathwing terms do feel like a tough nut to crack. The only thing I'd imagine would be at least the lasguns are the same on them as any terminators. Which isn't great. I'm not sure what we'd have to handle them well.
Now, if the battle cannon is buffed up like it is for the cannon on the defiler to be Dam 3 flat, that would make for a good answer to deathwing terms, other than the wounding them on only 4+ part, but one wound killing a model is golden. This may end up a problem we need a new book to really fix.
Unless you are just flooding them with lasguns then bodies and hoping for the best.
I keep thinking that in the end, they are still just 5 dudes, obsec or not. I don't think we currently have something in our arsenal to kill them efficiently (a big "maybe" for our psykers) but as long as we can keep them busy somehow, they are easy to outnumber as long as a single guardsman/scion is nearby to negate the obsec.
As mentioned: they take their good time to kill away death riders. They aren't very efficient in clearing crusaders either. 5 termies with their 15 attacks on the charge only kill on average ~4 Crusaders per fight phase (64 points). One of those might come back per acts of faith, another via medpack... it's risky but might work, givven you can drive 10 Crusaders into them (which are roughly the same price)
Edit: "might work" meaning: "might keep them from scoring"
have I got this right? Transhuman means wounding on better than 4+ redundant (so strength 4 sweet spot)?
And in terms of AP you want to push them to their invul - after that its wasted.
Hotshot lasguns?
Bulgryn Mauls?
No ideas beyond that apart from a nod towards Pyroalchi point about keeping them from scoring. If we can obsec cancel the objective for less points or similar points over course of game then successful even if not killing them. In matched play I think that's the right way to think about it.
While I love my Wyvern, it's mortars are just enough without any AP. Very 40/60 odds if not firing it at something it excels at killing, chaff low strength inf or smalls squads that lack reroll or high enough saves.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I don't think you will see 10 man terminator squads camping on backfield objectives, you will see 5 man squads, maybe 7, but that is a lot of points left in the backfield that could be spent on terminators/ravenwing causing havoc in the opponents defensive lines.
Maybe, but... have you seen that dark angels secondary objective? Essentially you hold one objective all game with the same squad, you get 15 VP's. So in a hold one/hold two mission doing that is worth 30 VP's. If I was a marine player, I wouldn't mind spending about a fifth of my points to secure 30% of the total VP's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks Pyroalchi, my first thought was engineers but I'm not sure they are the guys for this job...
I'm still mulling it over myself; I'd say a good starting point would be some softening up with a pair of fully buffed manticores
have I got this right? Transhuman means wounding on better than 4+ redundant (so strength 4 sweet spot)?
And in terms of AP you want to push them to their invul - after that its wasted.
Hotshot lasguns?
Bulgryn Mauls?
No ideas beyond that apart from a nod towards Pyroalchi point about keeping them from scoring. If we can obsec cancel the objective for less points or similar points over course of game then successful even if not killing them. In matched play I think that's the right way to think about it.
Yes St4 /-3ap is most efficient it seems; Lambda Lions with hot shot volley guns might be good. Given the challenge is to take a backfield objective, their obsec and deep strike will also be most welcome... and 30 of them is less points than these 10 practical dreadnoughts. I'll do the mathhammering when I sober up.
Bullgryn always a good shout, for anything you need doing, problem in this case is getting them there.
I tell you what though comrades, these ass-tartes don't stand a chance against a brave guard commander with a theoryhammer in his hand and some cheese in his backpocket.
I just read that secondary objectives and seriously: I would not worry so much. One can pretty easily Ruin the party by taking the objective for only one round
It counts how many consecutive rounds one squad holds one specific objective and then grants VP. 2 for 2 rounds, 3 for 3, 5 for 4+.
So deepstrike in some Obsec bodies on turn 3 and something they will need more than one turn/two fightphases to kill and the objective can score them 4 points max. 2 for the consecutive 1st and 2nd turn they held it, another two for the consecutive 4th and 5th, as they have to start counting again after losing it.
As mentioned: crusaders, Deathriders, maybe a Chimera or Sentinels in their cheapest possible Setup + one barebones Scion squad close enough to negate obsec. If he looses the objective die to being outnumbered just one turn, he looses most of the VP
I calculate a piece of lambda cheese (FRFSRF/precision drop/mortal wounds strat backed by an astropath=malstrom and a single tempest prime in a valkyrie) would reliably kill 3 such basterds.
It is, however, very wise to have something like a midrange leman russ to point at the pile and fire, as well as the traditional pair of tank acey manticores.
How many terminators would you need to block out the whole 3" circle around a 40mm objective? I am guessing 5 would be plenty to at least make sure that you can't get more than 5 dudesmen within 3" yourself.
Dukeofstuff wrote: I calculate a piece of lambda cheese (FRFSRF/precision drop/mortal wounds strat backed by an astropath=malstrom and a single tempest prime in a valkyrie) would reliably kill 3 such basterds.
It is, however, very wise to have something like a midrange leman russ to point at the pile and fire, as well as the traditional pair of tank acey manticores.
Nice. Yeah I am liking the Demolisher here, probably in a Spotter Details detachment for the extra range - or an Executioner. Gunnery Experts regiment and Tank Ace Slow and Purposeful to re-roll 1's to wound if extra buffs is needed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hangnailnz wrote: How many terminators would you need to block out the whole 3" circle around a 40mm objective? I am guessing 5 would be plenty to at least make sure that you can't get more than 5 dudesmen within 3" yourself.
Yes could be a concern if the only plan is to throw bodies at them, it's a suicide mission to charge, should get enough wiggle room to pile in somehow maybe, don't know.
I wrote you just had to get something in there that can survive 2 fight phases, but it's not even that, it's one at most.
The DA objective states, that you have to hold it for consecutive turns in the command phase. So (assuming the DA player starts:
1st turn: DA holds the objective, IG does something else
2nd turn: DA holds the objective, scores 2 VP for holding it 2 consecutive turns, IG brings 1+ dude with obsec +enough other stuff that a total of 11+ survive the fight phase within 3'' of the objective, therefore they hold it.
3rd turn: in his command phase the DA does not hold the objective and does not score. He kills the IG rabble at the objective. IG turn: does whatever else he wants, you can also fall back with the guys that contested the objective, doesn't matter any more.
4th turn: DA player does not score VP, as the counter reset and he only held it one consecutive turn, IG does whatever he likes
5th turn: DA player score 2 points again, for a total of 4VP from that objective.
You could also contest the objective in turn 3, which would result in the DA player scoring 5 VP in total, but the baseline is: as long as you contest it for just one of your own turns somewhere in the middle of the game you botched the whole party for him.
Regarding the possibility of closing off the objective with Terminators:
The 3'' radius around a 40mm objective has a circumference of 49 cms. So if the DA player really lines his 10 Termies up in a ring he can indeed close the objective off with slightly less than a cm in between any two termies. But then he runs into the problem that when you charge in lets say a densly packed Bullgryn group, not all of his Terminators can react. See the attached picture in which as far as I understand it only the deep red Terminators could be selected to fight, while all of the Bullgryns are either within 1/2'' of a Termie or within 1/2'' of a Bullgryn that is within 1/2'' of a Termie.
So I would say: if the DA player lines them up: try charging him with a dedicated CC unit (Bullgryns or death riders) and hold some obsec dudes nearby to contest the objective once an opening apears. If the termies huddle close together "just" bring 11+ dudes (1+ obsec) within 3'' for one of your turns.
The thing is, this is a very exposed target. Things are terminators but they lack the stormshields to be actually resilient, their only trick is making you use a larger volume of ap capable fire to crush them. They lack COVER because they are on an objective, dear gods, so their 2+ save is an actual 2+ save. The sheer novelty of that being what it says makes me giddy like a schoolgirl at the thought, as I usually am targeting T5 3+ crap that is dug into cover, and +1 from the stormshield's save bonus, and has feel no pain and a 4++ save. Or T4 with 2+/4++ and +1 to save from the stormshield and another +1 from cover. so back to the pathetic attempt by ravenwing to beat gaurd.
Taurox swarm by scions = roughly 120 s4/-1/1 shots (no cover on an objective) = roughly 70 hits = roughly 35 saves = roughly 17 failed saves or 5.6 dead. and that's before you fire all the hotshotvolleyguns you brought along, for another 7.7 wounds, or another 3.5 dead. brings you with one (admittedly massive) salvo to 9 of them dead, and the taurox swarm can pivot to kill something else in comfort knowing that you can always swing back on the drop turn ... or simply clear the objective by
Each manticore firing at them will .58 x .5 x .5 kills per shot, or roughly 1.16 per turn dead. So 2 or 3 with 2 manticores blazing from the backline. Each basilisk will somewhat underperform .. only .5 dead a turn. Still, if your gaurd artillery wing is 2 mantis (tank ace tank ace) and a basilisk, you should be able to kill 6 of them by turn 2.
By the time your bullygrn mob arrives, on turn 3, there should be nothing there to worry them -- so I would say send some obsec gaurdsmen via the reserves feat and keep your bullgyrn in the midfield, and watch that frustrated last termie repeatedly whack gaurdsmen with his one wittle thunder hammer in frustration.
Correction. WITH stormshields, this unit does achieve what I consider average to good resilience, but at the cost of 10 points per model extra, and absurdly, it has to sacrifice all its ranged weaponry options, so you can deepstrike right beside it and fire those meltas into it. With no worries. That's 430 points of unit. Lambda lions are not the only valid attack -- hotshotvolley guns from 24 inches out in command squads, firing at +1 to hit with no penalty for the disembark, would give you a fairly wicked rate of hits, still wound on a 4.5.6 and still pin these guys back to 3+ saves -- from a range they can't shoot back. so even the pathetically weak seeming non lambda hotshots have some impact on these guys! It does make the manticore a bit worse for shooting, of course, as 1/3 rather than
Also, a side note. 10 crusaders is a mere 160 points, far less than 5 of these guys with stormshields. And if they haven't got stormshields, their saves against crusaders (each of whom should score nearly 3 hits on the charge) will be ... 1 point of damage in melee unsaved per crusader. Or 3 dead termies who don't get to respond in melee, per 10 man crusaders hitting them, leaving 22 swings with a weapon that hits only on a 4+, or 11 hits, which means roughly 9 saves, and crusaders, properly buffed, are saving on 3++ from an astropath, so properly, 3 die. TWO can be rezzed by farily sneaky "a miracle and a medic" schtick. oh, and if you have TWO psyker effects in play, your astropath +1 to save aND -1 to hit, you expect to be hit only about 8 times, or about 7 hits, or 2 or 3 dead cruxes. That's not a win for this expensive as hell unit going up against 160 points of crusader, 45 of priest, and about 70 of support psykers.
I think it matters a great deal if he has stormshields on his guys. But just wear them down, cause someone who is counting on holding that objective probably is convinced his supertermies can't be killed.
And they can. (I mean, I mathed out 10 crusaders taking 10 of them on with good odds of winning, after all. That's absurdly good odds for gaurd.)
Yeah more I mull this over the more I feel like perhaps we lack some punch for these new terminators. Loaded Manticore is a good look though. That or flood ob sec bodies and much like a zombie horde hope they can't kill them all fast enough. Which could work.
As mentioned: capturing the objective just one of your turn is enough to dramatically reduced the VP for that objective. And as the DA Player can do nothing between you capturing it and his command phase one does not have to survive long. Afterwards he has 300-400 points of his army that failed at what they were expected to do.
One other thought: how are those termies in respect to morale? Might some morale shananigans work?
conclave strat to give both Wyrdvane and Primaris double cast with +2 24pts = 3 Wyrdvane Psykers
SMITE1 (5+ becomes 3+ with strat on 1d6)
Another power with +2 on 1d6 (defensive buff?)
50pts = Primaris Psyker1
SMITE2 (6+ on 2d6)
50pts = Primaris Psyker2 (wyrdvane boosted)
SMITE3 (7+ becomes 5+ on 2d6)
Maelstrom (7+ becomes 5+ on 2d6)
60pts Inquisitor
Castigation (6+ 2d6 - beat enemy leadership on 3D6 for D3 mortal wounds)
Note that I do a real similar mortal wound bomb a lot. Invariably, its stepping out of one of my flyers to do its thing to the enemy, after hovering forward. You misstated something about wyrdvanes, they get +1 on that d6 for having 3 or more models in the unit, and +2 if six or more. So in the conclave, they really are rolling that smite at +3. +1 to save is a very useful thing here, if you go in for (for example) a 30 man conscript squad and slap alpha psyker on the inquisitor, that brings it up to 30 4++ t3 bodies. A further defense strat and cover can drop that to 2+/4++, not too shabby. Although I have never heard of a wyrdvane unit of 1 or 2 survivors beign around to cast again, they would then, and only then, cast the smite on a 2+. Another plus 1 is not trivial -- means they get the spell to work on a 2, not a 3! A malleus inquisitor can throw castigate and if you boosted it with a 1 cp strat, cast that 6+ smite on 2d6 as well, in the same turn. 1 cp arbiter of the emporers will and the malleus psychic mastery warlord trait for +1 cast, deny, and known spell. Also, a free relic (usually the -1 to be wounded relic). If you want to get cute with it, consider alpha psyker and the ability to know and deny a third, which in malleus lets you potentially cast 5++ on a friendly infantry unit that hasn't got it. Like conscripts or a ball of cojoined squads.
This shaves a single psyker primaris out of the list (50 points is 50 points) while converting 1 cp into an extra inquisitor cast, and novel extra spell spell (from a different list) and deny, so basically, you get something different rather than being forced to take malstrom again (sigh) or dip into the glory that is the gaze of the emperor (a suicidal spell).
I often use psychic pursuit as that extra spell, paired with a combimelta. So that you can tailor it. (smite wyrd! smite inquisitor! smite primaris!) and then follow up with against (for example) a bunch of enemy gravis armor, throw on a castigate and a malstrom. This would be the way to go after (for example) ghaz lurking behind a bunch of ork boys, and still, hopefully, do the 4 points damage that saturated him for the phase even though he can't be smite targetted directly. OR flip the middle smite over to be psychic pursuit, and point the melta, castigate, and malstrom at an enemy character in the second rank of the army, to try to debuff them. This would be the "what happens to your army when your apothecary doesn't do all that crap, eh? eh?" side. Not all officers are shield capable nightmares, so you can strip out thigns like an enemy chaplain that cost the foe 130 points in a single average shooting turn! You lose 1 smite but can gain the world if that was a dead critical officer, and its nice in the shooting phase to be able to say "and my psyker inquisitorius melts your face off now." Although 1 cp more, this variation bomb is 40 points cheaper than the bomb you have, which is enough to rope in a single astropath .. or a second wyrdvane unit to hold in a transport so you can do the conclave trick twice, even though its just DEAD on turn 1.
Also, every melta matters, and you have an officer with a melta shot now, which is something gaurd struggles to achieve.
Its a fairly cheap total unit loadout. It can be done (minus the extra astropath or wyrdvanes) for a mere 134 points (if you don't bother with the melta gun on the malleus). Seems well worth it!
Duke and Pyroalchi, thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this. Also that's the first time I heard of a 'Mortal Wound Bomb'. Love it.
It just goes to show, sometimes people get worried about new stuff being OP, and codex creep... just 'cos it's new and unknown. I think it's fun figuring out ways to kill the hotness.
Next up are the emo-goth kinky space elfs; let's see what 'broken' squads and rules they get. They would probably enjoy a spanking with Bullgryn Maul.
I rather think they would -- as its basically a marine unit but easier to kill, and they are basically the best marine kill group out there right now.
What they would HATE is digging a bunch of little frag grenade and flamer wielding gaurd out of the vahallan (life is cheap) game. Because if you can fire into melee with those weapons, s3 harliquins are in TROUBLE.
They can't tie you up and survive if you then dump 256 s3 hits onto them and they have to .. dear ... god... what ... make 128 saves at 3+ or 4+? Sure, your own unit just vanished in the lasgun hail, but that only leaves the out of turn harliquins as valid targets for your secret superweapon.
The gaurd squad with a mortar.
In summary, you need a bunch of decent shooting anti-mid armor to tear up and destroy their transports. Like scions and command squads, like tank commanders with the executioner cannon (cause range matters here) and like veterans. Put those together, and you can volume of fire their little squads out of their shiny carriers, and then, its just a squad of FIVE s3 bodies ot take down with lasguns.
Seriously, gaurd doesn't NOTICE that crap, its called target practice for a squad.
If you have the models, is there a reason that you wouldn't want to run a Krieg Pony Outrider? 2 DR Commanders, 3 DR Command Squads and 3 10-man DR Squads is 44 models that are super sticky, have a solid damage output on a charge and and runs 720 points leaving lots to play with, 1080 points total if you include your 6 Infantry/Plasma Gun squads for your main Battalion.
Screening becomes easy peasy and tarpitting with multi-wound 4+/5+++ models opens up pretty nasty counterfire falling back on your own turn.
@ Cygnus: from a theoretical point of view I'm totally in board with you. But I think it would be great if someone could confirm that after practically testing it out. Theoryhammer can only bring us that far and it might always be that we missed something.
That's only a problem if you want to play in official events.
Cavalry isn't that hard to come by if you're not worried about using only official Forgeworld models.
Swap a few heads and weapons perhaps and boom...
If money is no issue, death riders are intensely fun and cool. I've run some, at least in 8th and they did very well for me there. I would love to field a large force of them.
Pyroalchi wrote: AoS Cities of Sigmar Riders or Dark Elf riders with Cadian torsos and heads are pretty easy to convert, cost much less and are 100% GW.
Exactly. The only thing holding me back is that I want to see the new codex first, and fear that DKOK might be made Legend soon. That and I still have loads of infantry and vehicles to paint first.
kirotheavenger wrote: Depends on the tournament. Some places require you to use the official models.
***This is not meant to be a snarky comment/question***
As I have never heard/seen such an issue, would they require a player to have the old metal models if they want to play a regiment other then Cadian/Catachan? Would they accept the old metal rough riders? If they would require the actual models for DKoK units but not other regiments then how do they justify it?
Very few tournaments outside of GW require official models. Most require your models to be reasonable approximations. As in same base size roughly same dimensions visibly clear what it represents. E.g. I've run kromlechs version of Tarrantulas and crusaders converted from mantic basileans and anvil industry's mortars on large bases with actual catachans for HWT's all our fine. If in doubt ask the TO.
My rough riders are catachans riding termagaunts with night govlin spears i ran them at a fair few events in 8th noone objected (as there never was an official catachan rough rider model)
Is there any way that Krieg Death Riders can gain objective secure? That seems to be the main problem I can think of as you want your tarpit to hold the objective while creating a mess on the board.
Cygnus X1 wrote: Is there any way that Krieg Death Riders can gain objective secure? That seems to be the main problem I can think of as you want your tarpit to hold the objective while creating a mess on the board.
AFAIK it's just troops, conscripts and leman russ tanks (in a vanguard) that can ever have obsec in a guard army. No other shenanigans, unless i've missed something. So move move move some of the lads in behind them I suppose or have a vanguard russ kitted out for combat up with them, or only go after objectives which are held by non-obsec opponents.
Remember marines can both shut off your obsec and give theiir troops without it obsec or even double count obsec. Be wary of the guys with warlord traits and mobility when you plan on enwmyaction.
There was that big Legending late last year that took away, like, 75% of the stuff we got from FW
Spoiler:
WHILE ALSO FINALLY MAKING THE SALAMANDER COMMAND VEHICLE AN ACTUAL COMMAND CHOICE NO I WILL NEVER NOT BE MAD IT TOOK THEM KILLING THE THING TO PUT IT WHERE IT ALWAYS SHOULD HAVE BEEN
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, after weeks of wondering what the bestest addition to my tiny army might be, I remembered the mortal wounds killball of monkey doom.
This one takes a warlord into the inquisition detachment, but bear with me, its funny.
Malleus inquisitor (60points + 2 cp + 10 point combimelta. He is NOT the warlord but his warlord trait is +1 psy power, cast, deny, and his second strat upgrade is +1 psy power known, and +1 deny (arbiter of the emp and alpha psyker strat). He carries a combimelta. jokaro. jogaro jokaro monkey. WARLORD. Warlord trait .. malleus ordo psychic mastery, +1 cast, deny and spell known. Other upgrade alpha psyker, +1 spell known and deny. Relic -1 to be wounded (blackshroud)
I know this sounds bizarre, but its 130 points total. These 4 guys are able to ride in any chimera, any valkyrie, whatever, and can stand in the middle of a 30 point conscript blob with an astropath duo .. turning those 30 conscripts into 4++ with -1 to be hit.
They can then cast a shocking 3 spells a turn (usually, I think, 2 of them offensive mortal wounds spells) and you can add this little nightmare to your existing 50 point psyker primaris, 24 point triple wyrdvane psyker duo that pumps out another 2 smites and malstrom each round. and an astropath for 35 completes it (allowing the ball of conscripts to strip cover and shoot much more effectively against things that save at 3+ in the open but 2+ in cover.) This brings you up to (but costs a cp!) smite(+3 on a d6, try to get a 5) smite(normal smite at 6, inquisitor) smite(psyker at +2, try to get a 7 on 2d6) malstrom (angry wyrdvanes, try to get 7 on 2d6) +1 save (from the primaris, try to roll this at +2? no problem!) -1 to be hit (also from primaris, ditto.)
Now, don't forget, this ball of psykery doom brings your cost in at 130 (inquisiton) + SEVEN CP + a warlord, + 109 for the gaurd psykers, + 150 for a bunch of conscripts. But it is an incredibly unusual and fairly neat way to hold onto a midboard objective, and the 3 jokaro put out a shot, each, of either s8/-3-3 OR 6 s4/-1/1. So they can basically hunt gravis armor with potshots while completely untargeted (unless, of course, a sniper is around.) Its not even BAD as a statline to shoot at terminators (S8/-3/3) and its not even BAD as anti-horde (although that 18 shots of s4/-1/1 is only range 12. So ... not perfect, either. but its a bonus. So the gaurd brings another 3 denies, up to EIGHT, in this psykerball.
CHEEPCHEEP! the warlord screams CEEEP! and the gaurd quietly wait for the invuln shielding to raise. Maybe this is survivable after all, one comments. "Why are those grey knights crying?" "I don't know, are they warming up? They keep waving their arms but its not having any effect over here" "Weren't they psychicers, Sir?" "Not. Today."
And yes, I know you probably want a pair of astropaths to be sure your defense buffs have character protected casters even after they 3 wyrdvanes die, and also because you will be low on cp this game after spending 7...
The custom regiment trait Lord's Approval gives -1AP to all regimental infantry models within 9 inches of an officer of that regiment.
Question; is an officer within 9" of himself? So he always gets the -1AP bonus? Or would he need to be within 9" of a different officer?
(A pair of Lieutenants with Power swords running around trying to one up each others displays of swordsmanship sounds pretty thematic to be honest.)
I'm building a little Konig regiment, and their background fluff mentions that the officers are trained in the saddle and the sabre early on. Strongly considering using this as one of my two custom regimental traits; likely alongside Jury Rigged.
(Other contenders being Spotter Details or Gunnery Experts, but I'm not planning on using any variable shot weapons aside from heavy flamers.)
It's not the most efficient setup but IF you want to go the CC route, Slum figthers is also pretty good. On average it is more or less equal to +1 WS, so 50% output in CC for Conscripts, +33% for other infantry or Powerfist wearing commanders, +25% for other armed commanders. Sure, Jury rigged or wilderness survivors is more competetive, but it would be funny to have those pretty hard hitting infantry.
Not sure this is the right place to ask, but on the off-chance that somebody has some: does anyone know the dimensions of the DKOK death rider models? Height, particularly - I can estimate length pretty easily from looking at them on the 40mm base, but I'd love to know how tall they are (both to the top of the head and to the spear on the ones with the spear raised). Thanks in advance if anyone has some and can measure.
Trying to make super heavies viable, Im thinking 50 pts per sponson is way expensive, it just makes them bullet magnets in the end when you really just want the main turret. Baneblade comes with a free demolisher gun and a turret weapon that does flat 3 damage which would be good against the 3 wound space marine gravis meta. Also one thing I really like is the "Grind them down" strategem which can give them the actual ability to kick some melee ass for 1 cp a round if someone wants to get close to it.
The Tank Aces can be fun, if your army has the the reroll a heavy dice, and also the repair a wound every turn, could turn problematic when taking it down. Combine with guard psychic powers to make it -1 to hit and 2+ armor save could make it pretty hilariously durable. which was a popular strat in 8th when astropaths were so cheap.
The always in cover tank ace is also pretty good if you can position the tank to be able to have LoS to the primary and maybe oppponents backfield objectives, Most guns on the tank turrets are extremely long range.
All decided, I still feel they are heavily overcosted atm, and could use a durability buff.
To me the super heavies just look to big and unwieldy for the board size and recommended terrain in this edition. They ARE terrain peices, or mobile forts. I suppose you could leab into that and use them to block movement channels, or hide your troops, or completely cover an objective (the IG way to turn off obsec lol).
Which is the close range assualt heavy? The Doomhammer? I'd be tempted to take a closer look at that maybe.
Playing pure infantry guard, maybe with a second detachment of scions for secondaries and aerial dropped special weapons. Then comes a choice, buffing characters.
- Commissars aren't often worth it, unless you're playing pure conscripts and even then you'd only take Lord Commissars rather than standard ones.
- Astropaths? Better for buffing Bullgryns with mixed shields for the 1+/3++ saves, and/or the -1 to hit.
- Inquisitors? Can double as Commissars with the Ld 9 bubble, but the real reason you would take one is the 5++ power. The problem here is that it can fail or be denied. It also unlocks the Abhor the Witch secondary (especially if you have Astropaths as well).
So, what do you do? Allied auxiliary support detachments, and you can keep them cheap, with 2 options (3 if you don't care for Guard warlord traits or CP).
1) Celestine: Costs 170 Points and 2 CP.
Everyone should know what she does for Guard by now, a simple 6++ to any Astra Militarum units (even tanks) within 6 inch. She's also fairly respectable in close combat with 6 attacks, hitting on 2+ at S7, AP-3 and D2. She basically has the same melee damage output as 3 Bullgryns, she can even be buffed by Astra Militarum Ministorum Priests.
When can do better for Guard though and cheaper too.
***
2) Vexilus Praetor (in or out of Allarus Terminator Armour): 110 or 115 Points and 2 CP.
These guys are awesome, they provide a 5++ save for any Imperium Infantry unit wholly within 9 inches. Basically a Kustom Force Field for Guard, think of it this way. Compared to Inquisitors, these guys are guaranteed to get their invuls off and you could potentially give it to multiple units. Using good positioning there's the potential to squeeze 4 units of 30 conscripts around him, 1 to each direction. Though that's highly terrain dependant, but an extreme example of how many Guard infantry models his invul can cover. The icing on the cake? He can double as a commissar as well, any Imperium Infantry units within 6 inches can reroll morale. Making this quite a decent investment and avoiding the extra 235 (minimum) point tax to field them.
Now, to the Terminator Armour variant. Very similar, except they can deep strike. You know how everyone says how good the Lions refractor field generator relic is? Imagine having 2, or playing a different Scion regiment and still having a source of deep striking invuls to keep some of those squishy suicide squads alive. Now you could use your Tempestor Prime with the refractor field to cram all your Taurox Primes around to make them more durable. Similar to the Conscript example above you could probably fit 4 Taurox's around the Tempestor, again terrain dependant.
The normal Vexilus Praetor is also no slouch to close combat, certainly not as good as Celestine but definitely better than an Inquisitor. With their Guardian Spear you get 4 attacks, hitting on 2+ at S6, AP-3 and DD3. Obviously don't go crazy and charge him at dedicated melee threats.
***
3) Emissaries Imperatus Vexilus Praetor (in or out of Allarus Terminator Armour): 110 or 115 Points, 5/6 CP (2 CP + 3/4 CP lost thanks to no refund to the Battalion/Brigade) and make him your Warlord.
It's essentially the same as above, you don't get detachment abilities and you don't get stratagems but you can now give him Voice of the Emperor. With VotE you now have a wholly within 12 inch 5++ aura, a 9 inch Ld9 aura and a 9 inch re-roll morale aura.
Is 5 to 6 CP worth it? As a purely pure infantry list with Infantry Squads or Conscripts it could be. There's not too many stratagems you'll really be using.
***
What else can you do?
Sadly, I don't think there's any other allied units that are worth using the auxiliary support detachment on. Here's another suggestion for somewhat cheap allies for pure infantry Guard.
1) Adeptus Custodes Emissaries Imperatus Patrol: 340 Points and 2 CP.
HQ:
- Shield-Captain (in or out of Allarus Terminator Armour): 100 or 110 Points.
Tax, either keep them cheap and near your Vexilus Praetor to keep them safe. You can pay 1 CP for Captain-Commander traits but I don't think many are worth it, maybe Swift as the Eagle or Defiant to the Last. In terms of relics, they're not that great. You could buff their damage output. If you're taking the Terminator variant you can deep strike him with Scions to give some melee punch.
Troops:
- Custodian Guard: 135 Points.
Tax, pure Troop tax. Use them like Bullgryns. You can pay 1 CP to give them deep strike. Like the Shield-Captain you can drop them with Scions for some melee damage.
Elites:
- Vexilus Praetor (in or out of Allarus Terminator Armour): 110 or 115 Points, and 1 CP.
Vexilla Defensor, Ten Thousand Heroes and Voice of the Emperor. This is the creme-ala-creme, with Voice of the Emperor you now have a wholly within 12 inch 5++ aura, a 9 inch Ld9 aura and a 9 inch re-roll morale aura. This guy has basically become a Lord Commissar and at least 3/4 Inquisitors combined in terms of 5++ coverage. You can even make this better, now that you're taking a Patrol you get access to Detachment and Stratagems, the Detachment abilities just make him a little more durable with a 4++. What really makes him shine is the Plant the Vexilla Stratagem.
Plant the Vexilla increases his Custodes Vexilla aura range to wholly within 18 inch for the 5++ and within 15 inch for the morale re-roll. That's insane. You get this guy in the middle of a 44 by 60 inch board, he has a 36 inch diametre that's about 40% of the entire board covered by a 5++ aura. This is what you take the patrol for, to increase the survivability for the majority (if not all) your pure infantry army.
As for the Terminator Armour, I'd only take it to again, deep strike with Scions. Though, I probably wouldn't give it any of the upgrades above due to how dangerous that kind of deployment would be. Assuming you're dropping all your Scions into the enemies deployment zone and across both their quarters of the board for secondaries.
***
The question is, should you do any of these? Why not just take more Guardsmen, which is a fair point. Though, I think some of these is worth a try at least.
I note of course that the vexillis / astropath combination can greatly augment the already somewhat hard to kill 2+ save bullygrns, cause 2+/4++ is pretty solid.
Also I note that there are LOTS of things oyu can soup in to gaurd. Doesn't need to be crazier than a pack of vangaurd vets with stormshields and 5 thunderhamers and 5 lightclaws, that can hop right into the fray, making a wall for melee behind which the gaurd can mass for lasgun volley .. simply because so few gaurd optoins can move 12 inches and THEN charge and THEN clear the objective that charged, wihtout getting cut up.
Dukeofstuff wrote: I note of course that the vexillis / astropath combination can greatly augment the already somewhat hard to kill 2+ save bullygrns, cause 2+/4++ is pretty solid.
Also I note that there are LOTS of things oyu can soup in to gaurd. Doesn't need to be crazier than a pack of vangaurd vets with stormshields and 5 thunderhamers and 5 lightclaws, that can hop right into the fray, making a wall for melee behind which the gaurd can mass for lasgun volley .. simply because so few gaurd optoins can move 12 inches and THEN charge and THEN clear the objective that charged, wihtout getting cut up.
You can do better for Bullgryns by just mixing shields though. For a 1+/3++ from just the Astropath alone.
I think the biggest boon of the Vexillis is that they can give Guard infantry units that typically don't get access to invuls an invul save. Guard units like:
HQ:
- Primaris Psykers, Tempestor Primes, and Aradia Madellan.
Troops:
- Conscripts, Infantry Squads, and Militarum Tempestus Scions.
Elites:
- Astropaths, Colour Sergeant Kell, Command Squads, Combat Engineer Squads, Commissars, Commissar Severina Raine, Master of Ordnances, Militarum Tempestus Command Squads, Nork Deddog, Ogryns, Ratlings, Rein and Raus, Sergeant Harker, Servitors, Sly Marbo, Special Weapons Squads, Tech-Priest Enginseers, Veterans, Wyrdvane Psykers.
Heavy Support:
- Heavy Weapons Squads.
It's pretty crazy how many units can benefit from an invul save in our army list. Obviously many of them aren't really worth it. Bad options will still be bad options even with a 5++.
Though it can make some more options slightly more interesting. Conscripts or Infantry Squads with a 5++ and Wilderness Survivors could be nice. Allowing them to hold objectives or tie up enemies for longer. Astropaths getting saves against things that can potentially ignore look out sir is nice.
cody.d. wrote: Although scions can get their mits on an invul with the lions if I recall. The aura even affects vehicles such as taurox primes.
Yup, it's a 6" aura of 5++ to all Lambdan Lion units. Definitely good for a taurox prime firebase, though somewhat limited given the lack of numbers scions usually bring.
cody.d. wrote: Although scions can get their mits on an invul with the lions if I recall. The aura even affects vehicles such as taurox primes.
Correct, but what an ally Vexilus can do is allow you to use that 5++ solely on a group of Taurox’s. You can then drop the Vexilus with the Scions to give them an invul as well.
I watched Mordian Glory's latest video where he talks about board control, and how you could throw 100 Guardsmen at the enemy deployment zone to delay their objective game.
Which got me thinking, could it be possible to simply slow down the opponent while you purely focus on objective grabbing.
Here's a hypothetical list:
Brigade 1 (0 CP):
- 3 Company Commanders
- 10 Infantry Squads
- 3 Platoon Commanders
- 3 Scout Sentinels
- 3 Heavy Weapon Squads with mortars
That's pretty crazy, the only way for Guard to get more infantry than that is to switch to Conscripts.
Basically, you put as many Infantry Squads on the field first. At least 9 - 10 squads. You put down all the characters, sentinels, cyclops and heavy weapon squads. The officers all order Move, Move, Move and you throw all those Guardsmen as a literal wall of bodies across the board. The sentinels, cyclops, and characters go with them. While the heavy weapon squads sit on the home objectives.
Any Infantry Squads that can't fit go into strategic reserves and they're your second wave to hold any objectives you've missed.
If you wanted more bodies you could swap the platoon commanders out in the first brigade for command squads. Then put the platoon commanders in the second brigade instead of the commissars.
I really love the idea of a Guard-horde, but seriously painting that many guards-men is so beyond torturous to any hobbyist unless you go for the minimum cheesy 3 colors. Also moving that many guardsmen every turn and deploying them etc, is also a bit of a horrible experience.
I go into every game with the mentality that every single guardsmen is precious, but like ammunition, their fictional lives must spent to win the game whenever necessary at a moments notice. ;3
Love it mate, you have to shout CHAaArgGh!! at the start of every movement phase, and actually vocalise the Orders from the commanders, and you'll be golden. Also play without movement trays to tilt your oppo.
Seriously though, Agile Warriors (re-roll advances) and Wilderness Survivors (always in cover) seem like the doctrines here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Model them as a penal legion with the cyclops repped by servitor human bombs, imo
I did not realise that turret weapons of Hellhound and Devildog were not free in Chapter Approved 2020.
.
