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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.

No

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are massed Sentinels with Heavy Flamers still a good first strike option? I thought about buying a few and using them as a cheap chaff clearing rush down option then maybe camping on objective later.

Nah, not really. Scout sentinels do have 9"+9"+12" threat range, but they are pretty squishy, tend to sit in the open and doesn't really do that much damage. In theory they can limit your opponents deep strike possibilities in turn two, which can be useful if you go second and if they survive.

I think gaurd's best hordeclear is probably those two mortar squads you spent the same amount of points on, who simultaneously camp a backfield objective and fire all those shots (6d6) each round. By the time the 3 sentinals get there, you have hit the foe with 12d6 shots and the enemy is grinding his teeth in frustration that he has no line of sight to shoot his lascannon back at you.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
This is not data but anecdote.

Yesterday I fielded a Vindicare against Necrons and my opponent made the mistake of leaving his characters exposed. The Vindicare dropped his warlord twice, and a Chronomancer for the giggles (the other Chronomancer suddenly had the need to put a building between the Vindicare and himself) in three turns.

The true strength of the Vindicare came from being able to ignore the -1 to hit, the bubble wrapping my opponent had arranged, the toughness of his boss,and finally the 3++ saves. In comparison a sniper command squad I had in support of the Vindicare only mamaged to score 2 wounds on his characters during the whole game, and only because I got 2 lucky 6s for the mortal wound rule.

Vindicare are beasts because even if on average you will only kill a character about half the time, paying just 100pts for the power to bypass most defenses is very cheap.

M.

Vindicaire are interesting. On one hand, they're very scary. On the other hand, I've seen them kill one of my models exactly once, and that was a tech priest engineer at the height of their use in 8th. I have an admech dominus who has not only survived being shot multiple times by a vindicaire, but gone on to kill said vindicaire by shooting him to death. Hilariously uncommon and really only possible because the opponent was a knight army, but yeah.

I think the true value of the Vindicaire is not what he can actually kill, but the pyschological effect it has on the opponent. He's got a better chance at dropping a character than anything else out there, and when he rolls hot he can really do some damage, but you have no way of knowing till he takes the shot. While I have a somewhat dismissive attitude towards them because my opponents seem to be very unlucky, I can't deny that I still heavily consider where I move models when one is on the table, especially with how fragile many guard characters are.

Plus, with assassinate being a pretty big secondary objective, the Vindicaire can actively rack up VP too, so its got its upsides. I don't run one, but I can see a lot of good reasons to do so. After all, there's really not a single list out there that he can't do something against. Even pure vehicle or monster lists he can be good to force that last few damage through on a very heavily damaged unit. He has his weaknesses to be sure, namely terrain and finding a good firing spot, but overall there's far worse units to run.

I mostly agree. It's not the straight killing power but how it limits the opponent choices. From having a SM captain strolling around the objectives to having to wait in cover or the Vindicare can get that lucky shot that will total said captain.

I love taking an Execution Force to games, 400 pts in just 4 miniatures is Godsent, and I'm notoriously unlucky with the other assassins, but the Vindicare it's always that psychological threat you mentioned, perched on a tall building, looking down for prey to shoot, no saves, no LoS... makes even experienced players really nervous when their game plan depends on thos or that character.

M.

So, I finally put together what I think might be a competent army with vindicaires in it.

Maybe.

Is it crazy?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795178.page

Note that I have never run a full inquisition detachment in my life, but it looks fun enough.

Looks like Infantry and Veteran Squads went up 5 points per squad in the new update.

As quick look over of the points I noticed from memory

Tank commanders up by 5
Leman russ down by 5

Infantry and vets up by 5 per squad
Bullgryns down by 7 points each!

Chimera down by 10

Sprugly

Dang they really want to sell Bullgryns!

The Bring it Down Secondary was changed so now each Russ and Chimera gives 2 points rather than 3.

The Infantry Squad update means there's a small argument for Conscripts

So wait, if I'm reading this correctly, a Chimera with a multilaser and hull heavy bolter is 75 points? Yet, a Taurox is 90? Why would we ever take a Taurox?

@arcanis161

Yeah, looks like it. And I just yesterday ordered some Ambots with a plan to convert them into Bullgryn. Sounds like an even better idea now!

Sprugly

Arcanis161 wrote:


The Bring it Down Secondary was changed so now each Russ and Chimera gives 2 points rather than 3.

But only in GT2020. Matched play is unchanged.

Hellhounds with a Heavy Flamer are down 10 points. I like putting track guards on them, so they effectively never degrade.

I only glanced over the new points, but one thing I find really weird: the Multilasers on the Carnodon are now the same price as autocannons, heavy bolters and heavy flamers (15 points each) while they still seem to cost 5 on the Chimera. 15 points for heavy 3, S6, AP 0, d1... Okay...?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I only glanced over the new points, but one thing I find really weird: the Multilasers on the Carnodon are now the same price as autocannons, heavy bolters and heavy flamers (15 points each) while they still seem to cost 5 on the Chimera. 15 points for heavy 3, S6, AP 0, d1... Okay...?

I don't see Multilaser on the Chimera listing at all, I assume that means its cost is baked into the unit cost?

The Taurox price is still abysmally high, 2 autocannons is decent firepower and all, but its not that great considering how fragile a platform its mounted on.

Vanquisher Battle cannon is essentially free, and still not worth it.

Overall my army list went down a tiny bit, so the points seem to even out if you have a relatively balanced army.

Yes, the munitorum field manual 2021 seems to have retured to the layout that we had during 5-6-7-th editions : a base cost of the unit with its base weapons included, then a list of options. For example a lot of vehicles had their mandatory hull heavy bolter (or heavy flamer) costs rolled into their base cost. There is a further rounding to multiples of 5, compared to 8th edition, then Chapter Approved 2020.
I have browsed through the lists and here are the modifications, per unit, color coded (ex. red = +10% or more) by sign and proportion :

The characters : Colonel Straken ,Commissar Yarrick ,Company commander , Creed , Lord Commissar , Primaris psyker , Tempestor prime , Sergeant Kell, Master of ordnance , Ministorum priest ,
Nork deddog , Officer of the fleet , Ogryn Bodyguard , Platoon commander , Sergeant Harker , Severina Raine , Sly Marbo , Techpriest enginseer , : no change

Commander Pask : +15 points on hull but 15 points rebate on turrets costs = no change.
Tank commander : +20 points and -15 points on turret weapons = +5 points

Conscripts : no change
infantry squad : +5 points
Militarum Tempestus Scions : no change

Astropath : +10 points
Bullgryns : - 8 points / model
Command squad : +1 point, weapons : no change
Commissar : +5 points
Crusaders : power sword now included - 4 points / model
Militarum Tempestus command squad : no change
Ogryns : no change
Ratlings : no change
Servitors (unit of 4) : +2 points
Special weapons squad : +4 points
Veterans squad : +5 points
Wyrdvane psykers : no change

Armouded sentinels : multi-laser included, no change
Scout Sentinels : multi-laser included, no change
Hellhound : hull HB and turret included in the price with a rebate, multi-melta overcost unchanged = - 10 points
Devil dog : - 10 points, see hellhound
Bane wolf : - 10 points

Basilisk, Deathstrike, Hydra, Manticore, Wyvern : no change
Heavy weapons squad : -1 point, overcost of LC and ML unchanged
LRBT : +10 hull, -15 turret weapons = -5 points
Chimera : multi-laser included + rebate = -10 points
Taurox , Taurox prime : no change
Valkyrie : its wings & fuselage weapons are now included, no change

I believe that the Hellhound variants actually went down in points, as their weapons no longer cost anything. For example, the Inferno Cannon used to cost 10 points in the previous MFM.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
I believe that the Hellhound variants actually went down in points, as their weapons no longer cost anything. For example, the Inferno Cannon used to cost 10 points in the previous MFM.

Good catch, I did not realise that turret weapons of Hellhound and Devildog were not free in Chapter Approved 2020.

Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.

What's fascinating about this is GW is known for some stupid balance changes, but this is something else. If I didn't know better I would say this was done solely to screw with battlescribe. If you look at units that were changed, like the infantry squad or command squad, it breaks how their points are normally done, i.e. per model. They also went out of their way to make the special weapon squad weapons a different cost than any other unit in the codex, they pay 3 for their weapon, be it flamer, gl, plasma, or melta. Regular guard units pay the 5pts with the 10pt cost on melta and plasma for vets. Yet in reality all it does is mark up the SWS by 4 points when it's said and done. The CCS got a one point increase to the squad total, everything else stayed the same. This really isn't a big deal for the average player, but if you've ever fooled around with a Battlescribe roster editor you know this will be annoying. Not insurmountable, but it will require a good bit of work to fix since you fundamentally have to restructure how points are calculated for several units. If all the codexes have random nonsensical tweaks like this, Battlescribe will be out of date for a few weeks, coincidentally right when GW is really trying to push their home grown app.

It's the only theory I have, since this is pretty clearly not based on which units are over or underperforming. If it was, manticores would've gotten a price hike, and Bullgryn absolutely would not have gotten even cheaper. That, or we assume GW is idiots, but given how they've been a lot better about points changes on the past year I don't think they're this incompetent.

As for dealing with it, my list is probably going up by 30-40 pts, which means I'm probably just going to cut some weapons or upgrades from somewhere. Overall it's not a big change. The secondaries will help us a bit, as will the final turn scoring for who goes second, but I dont think we got enough to help us when it comes to secondaries. Tank commanders still give up 6VP, and assassinate is still 3vp, so characters overall remain a liability.

Or it could be that when your trying to balance things and you have models that are 5 points going to 6 is a 20% increase which is really dramatic where as 5.5 is only a 10% increase and might he more balanced

If you only use whole numbers it's fine for tanks but to sweeping for cheap models like guardsman.

Although I'm not sure they needed an increase of 10% they certainly wouldn't need 20%


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.

If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon

Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155

Perhaps you chaps can enlighten me. How do points updates work in 40k? is it bi-annually? I can't see a new 'munitorum field manual 2021' for sale anywhere? Is it all on the GW app?

edit: found it, on WH community faq downloads page

looks like wahapedia has updated already; that's pretty impressive.

U02dah4 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.

If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon

Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155

So are they baked into the cost of things like the Manticore and Basilisk as their entry have no cost option for Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer?

 Salted Diamond wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Just so I understand things correctly, if the option exists in the codex but has no cost listing in CA 2021 then it is "free". ie: Leman Russ Executioner and Vanquisher (I still field one in my fluffy list) are now 0 points as they have no cost option after the 140 cost of the Leman Russ and the hull HB is baked in to that.

If there is no entry then it is free so yes currently the executioner and vanquished are 0 compared to a 5pt battlecannon

Heavy bolters are not free they are listed as 15 so your russ with executioner plasma and only one heavy bolter would be 155

So are they baked into the cost of things like the Manticore and Basilisk as their entry have no cost option for Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer?

Correct. If a weapon or wargear has no points entry for that unit, it doesn't have a points cost to refund, so it's "baked in" to the hull cost, and any replacements won't have a points reduction for removing it.

Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?

In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.


As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?

In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.


As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?

GW Devs have made it pretty obvious what they want now.

Replace all your overpriced, flimsy infantry that bleeds VP with super cheap and tanky Bullgryn or Death Riders which give up far less VP and perform better.

How long do these points remain in effect for? I take it a new IG codex would change them again?

Valkyrie with full load still same, but a low end valkyrie with crap weaponry seems to be 10 points more. They baked the price of the MRP into it and hellfire missle went "up" by 10 as a result.

Vendetta 5 points less.

Entirety of inquistion same price.

Inquisition acolytes don't have prices for
meltaguns
plasma guns
boltguns
flamers
hot shot lasguns
stormbolters

so presumably these are all free upgrades now!

Inquisitors are the same but also missing points for condemner boltguns and incinerators.

Jokaero also dropped 4pts I think?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Also as we discussed a page ago about if there are any circumstances speaking for Ogryns: I made a very weak argument, that their output against 1W models is better point for point while being more squishy. With the changed points bringing Bullgryns to 35 with equipment even this weak argument is irrelevant.
I have a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I understand that they try to make lots of things cost a multiple of 5 points but why go from 43 points per Bullgryn to 35 instead of 40 or 45?

In the same line: Some pages ago I calculated that (again point for point) deathriders are sturdier than Bullgryns. With these changes the Big Boys should again have the upper hand in resilience.


As so often with GWs points adjustments there are some head scratchers where somebody seems to have taken a look at certain units (since they were slightly changed) but seemed to have completely missed what is good and what is bad. Sorry to bring the Carnodon up again, but in what world is a Multilaser worth the same as a Heavy Bolter?

Where did they say they're trying to make the units multiples of 5? Because the special weapon squad, no matter how you take it, is 49pts now, whereas before it was 45 any ways you took it, ignoring sniper rifles. Not to mention infantry squads can still be made into cost like 67pts if you give the unit a sniper rifle or a bolt pistol.

Like I said, these changes make no sense unless you're actively trying to mess with the Battlescribe folks. They're definitely not balance related, that's for sure. We know this because GW themselves posted an article not even a month ago with IG's garbage winrate, and the few units we have that are strong either got price reductions or stayed the same.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

Crusaders : +1 point / model

Didn't crusaders go down 4points?

Powerswords seem baked in now. They were 20 with swords, now 16