I get why people would want bare heads. But that's not very Krieg, as a start. Which means people would complain even more than they did about the medals (which the FW Command set had...). And I'm guessing the gas mask and hose are separate, but the torso probably has the box connected, which wouldn't work unless they made masks that could be attached to the belt or something.

Is it possible to pick up the Cadian upgrade sprue by itself? Because that could be the solution. I might even consider doing that if it works.

These are all the same mini with different heads, now explain again how this is pointless and worse than everybody running the same Regiment
https://imgur.com/a/k7gsp2W

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm concerned about reports that the bases are 3.5mm wider than was previously standard for Imperial Guard models. Why do they do this?

I hope it's not indicative of a scale creep on the models as a whole.

I have two squads of Steel Legion metals, a squad of Catachan metals and a squad of Cadian metals. Would be fun to add these to them if they are in the right scale. OTOH I might just get more Steel Legion.

How else are they gonna make room on the base for all their miniatures that suffer from Gigantism?

What's this about the bases being 3.5mm bigger than the 25mm bases currently used for AM models? This seems like random fear-mongering. If GW was going to redo the AM base size for Infantry surely they would have done it with the updated Cadian box.

GW has put a few things on 28.5mm bases lately and squinting and pixel counting shows these might be larger. Not confirmed but not just paranoia either.

 Gert wrote:
What's this about the bases being 3.5mm bigger than the 25mm bases currently used for AM models? This seems like random fear-mongering. If GW was going to redo the AM base size for Infantry surely they would have done it with the updated Cadian box.

Gaunt's Ghosts are on 28s ("Citadel 28.5mm Round Bases"), but as you said the re-boxed Cadians are still on 25s.

To me, that's what makes me disagree with the rumour.
The basic troop unit was updated like a month ago and wasn't changed whereas a unit entirely consisting of named characters with a lot of base kibble were put on slightly larger ones. The Ghosts are "spectacle" rather than "basic" like these Kriegers seem to be.

I just wish GW could stick to consistent base sizes, but it is a major personal bugbear and I'm aware most people don't care about scale creep.

I don't buy the scale creeped stuff, so it's relevant to me deciding whether I want to get this kit or not is all.

 Gert wrote:
To me, that's what makes me disagree with the rumour.
The basic troop unit was updated like a month ago and wasn't changed whereas a unit entirely consisting of named characters with a lot of base kibble were put on slightly larger ones. The Ghosts are "spectacle" rather than "basic" like these Kriegers seem to be.

The real fun starts when you realize that GW's choice of base size is not connected to any single metric that is consequently followed through. Necron Warriors used to be on 25mm bases. They got (at least partially) ported to 32mm prior to the latest models, and those latest models also have 32mm bases. Meanwhile, Flayed Ones who have the same bodies as Warriors and thus take up as much space on the base, got changed from 25mm to 28.5mm with their latest models. Why? Presumably because Warriors got upgraded to the next larger base that existed at the time and poor, forgotten Flayed Ones did not. Until now, when the next larger base size isn't the same size as the one Warriors got. Same logic for updating, but with different results based on the time the update happened.

So what is GW going to do? Cadians?The sprue they get doesn't change the legs. Krieg? New legs. Do both go on 25mm bases because they're Guardsmen and Guardsmen go on 25mm bases? Or does one stay on the same base they were on because what connects to that base didn't change, while the other goes one size up because that's what modern humans do (sometimes)?

As an extra bit of fun, the Yncarne has a sculpted base topper on its sprue that perfectly fits a 60mm base and the assembly instructions show it on that size base. Whereas the model officially comes with an 80mm base. At least two people had an opinion on base size and one side won out without informing the other side.

All of which is to say, this one is firmly in wait and see territory. GW gonna GW when it comes to base sizes.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
While I do understand this sort of request, I think it simplifies the regiments far too much and ignores the nuances that makes them distinct. Yes, something like Krieg and Steel legion are both gasmasked guard with long coats, but there's more of a difference to them that couldn't be done with just a headswap and such. They're only similar in that basic idea - they have entirely different boots, coats, lasguns, helmets, masks, gloves etc to the point it it would either require a completely different kit/substantial replacement parts, or a vast modification of the look of the alternate regiment overall to something it's not and instead just making them Krieg-but-not-quite. There are more differences than there are similarities.

So what you're saying is that it's better that the billions of different guard regiments continue being represented by 2, now going on 3, fixed uniforms than there being any racial impurity in the uniform of any one of them

...What? What are you on about?

It's too much of a simplification/loss of nuance between the two if you think all it would take to create something like the Steel Legion is just a headswap for the Krieg Miniatures (that's what was being discussed in the post i quoted) because there are so many differences that they aren't even similar beyond the idea of "coat and gasmask" regiment.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
GW has put a few things on 28.5mm bases lately and squinting and pixel counting shows these might be larger. Not confirmed but not just paranoia either.

I did some pixel counting and got 25mm for the DKOK bases.

The wide shot which shows both DKOK and Kommandos in the same picture, I zoomed in and assumed the Kommandos are on 32's, in which case the DKOK are on 25's.

But that's not a promise, that's just counting pixels on some very zoomed in shots.

If you want to check on your pixel counting, the Blissbarb Archers are on 28.5mm bases with the exception of the Haemonculus (the guy crouching beside the brazier) who is on a 25mm base.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
These are all the same mini with different heads, now explain again how this is pointless and worse than everybody running the same Regiment
https://imgur.com/a/k7gsp2W

Spoiler:

(in before the entire counter argument being "Wargames Atlantic sucks, their sculpting sucks, rawr")

It would obviously be great if we could have our cake and eat it too, but realistically I want GW to do DKOK well first and then focus on doing other regiments well, not just throwing a few headswaps in that might raise the price of a unit or reduce the number of DKOK bits we get and end up meaning those other regiments don't get a proper crack at it anyway (no, I don't want Valhallans that are just DKOK with a headswap still wearing DKOK backpacks with DKOK air supply box thingos on their chest).

If you love headswapping so much, there are other companies that make 28mm scale heads that you can swap in if you're so inclined.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Can't say I do tbh.

Let's find a different way to phrase it then:
If everyone is dynamic, no one is dynamic.
10 great looking dynamic Ork sculpts are great. It gets less great the more and more and more and more duplicates you have of said dynamic poses. They'll begin to stand out. You've got 2 units of 30 boyz, and 6 of each 'dynamic' model in there?
That's what's meant by 'too dynamic'. There's nothing wrong with dynamic miniatures. The problem comes from when there's many of them in too small a space.

That sounds like a lot of bizarre mental gymnastics in search of something to complain about. If this is the kind of thing that gets your feathers in a ruffle I would dare say the problem is you more than it is the minis.

 kodos wrote:

Something interesting that came up yesterday during conversations:
GW has chosen the only Regiment for their new plastic release no other company makes as those are either modeled after Steel Legion with the shorter coat and different masks, or made out of 2+ boxes/bits (like the WGA ones)

There are quite a few DKoK knockoff mini options out there, especially when it comes to 3D printing. The upcoming WW1 French infantry from WGA are also just a headswap/gasmask away from being DKoK - especially now that GW double-downed on the source references instead of reworking their uniforms to be more grimdark. The existing WGA Les Grognards are more or less the exact same uniform but with a breastplate and long boots instead of puttees. The most visually distinct of the mainline guard regiments are the Vostroyans and the Elysians. Theres several more in the fluff that are even moreso.

(and going with Vostroyans, you would have a WGA kit available that makes them out of the box for a fraction of the price including heavy weapons)

Vostroyans look nothing like anything WGA produces. Les Grognards uniforms are basically the same greatcoats that Krieg wears, and their bearskins and shakos are nothing like the Vostroyans Hussar Busby's/kucsma's. Can you make Les Grognards look like facsimiles of Vostroyans? Sure - but the similarities between Vostroyans and Les Grogs are fewer than between DKoK and Les Grogs.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Krieg are also, as Imperial Guard go, visually distinctive. Certainly more so than Catachan and Cadian.

If by visually distinctive you mean literally WW1 French Poulis with a gasmask, a laser gun, and the lower half of a stahlhelm welded to their adrian helmets.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Are... are people really arguing about ankles?!
Sweet Changer, some people will complain about anything.

Amen.

 Geifer wrote:

If weapon sizes hadn't gone up in the transition to plastic, that would actually be a great way to reconcile having both old and new models in the same army.

IMO this is the only legitimate complaint. Any difference in height looks minor. Differences in ankle/wrist size or whatever are explainable within the context of individual differences in musculature and fat distribution (just look at the photos of the French reenactors I posted earlier, some of them have twig legs and others are big and meaty). But the weapons - its hard to justify why two more or less identical lasguns are so significantly different size-wise. Its kind of a problem for those of us with existing DKoK collections that would like to expand them.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Chikout wrote:
The new Krieg minis look great but I wish they included an alternative set of helmets with open faces. I like the Krieg look but part of the appeal of guard is that they are just regular humans thrust into a universe full of madness. The helmets hide that.

It wouldn't be Kriegers without their gas masks

Indeed. Its literally in their fluff that they basically never take off their gasmasks (not even to sleep),and if they do they only remove them when they are in private and none else can see them doing so (such as eating, though theres an implication that they may consume their rations through some other means than chewing solids which might allow them to avoid removing the gasmask even for that). Real Mandalorian vibes there.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Chikout wrote:
The new Krieg minis look great but I wish they included an alternative set of helmets with open faces. I like the Krieg look but part of the appeal of guard is that they are just regular humans thrust into a universe full of madness. The helmets hide that.

It wouldn't be Kriegers without their gas masks

Problem is those gas masks. The way those hoses needed to be modeled in order to manufacture them means that to some extent they need to be modeled into the minis torsos, etc. No real way to give a non-gasmask head option there unless its that they are wearing an over-mouth rebreather kind of thing without goggles so you can see their bare eyes and hair. Best we can do is hope that headswaps with 3rd party bits don't require too much cutting and resculpting.

Rihgu wrote:
Those Krieg minis could just as easily be Kryyg, or Krag, or Kriegia, or Armageddon Iron Phalanx, so if you're making Krieg models just don't use the non-Krieg heads.

You have insulted the Shock Gendarmerie of Guerre by not mentioning them here.

 Trimarius wrote:

He's after a two-for-one box of different regiments that only requires alternate heads. Steel Legion or Chem Dogs would work (though I doubt he, specifically, would want Chem Dogs) without needing much more than that.

Dunno about Chem dogs because I don't pay much attention to them, but if they included alt heads for Steel Legion you would 100% get fan backlash because Steel Legion don't wear greatcoats and use an entirely different pattern of lasgun.

 Da Boss wrote:
I just wish GW could stick to consistent base sizes, but it is a major personal bugbear and I'm aware most people don't care about scale creep.
I don't buy the scale creeped stuff, so it's relevant to me deciding whether I want to get this kit or not is all.

TBH I'm surprised that the competitive community hasn't already somehow forced GW into this consistency. They get so bent out of shape about things like inconsistent terrain and board sizes, etc. that GW has been addressing all that for competitive play, meanwhile there is widespread inconsistency in base sizes resulting from the "use the bases that the model came with" policy that can have huge impacts on gameplay (the difference in the area of an aura abilities coverage when it originates from a mini on a 25mm base vs a 32mm base or 40mm base, for example, is pretty large).

 Da Boss wrote:
I'm concerned about reports that the bases are 3.5mm wider than was previously standard for Imperial Guard models. Why do they do this?

Where did you hear that? This is exactly my fear.

I hope it's not indicative of a scale creep on the models as a whole.

It would mean significant scale creep.

Ain't no way I'm quoting that wall of text, but related to head-swapping, this is how the heads come on the sprue.

 Ghaz wrote:
If you want to check on your pixel counting, the Blissbarb Archers are on 28.5mm bases with the exception of the Haemonculus (the guy crouching beside the brazier) who is on a 25mm base.

The pixel counting I did was just to load the image on WarCom (the one that shows the models on the table) in paint, zoom in and count*** the pixels of an Ork base, count the pixels of a DKOK base,

(DKOK pixels / Ork pixels) * 32mm = DKOK base size in mm

I got roughly 24 to 26mm when I selected models that were reasonably close to each other in the image to minimise perspective error.

It's mainly because the images are so small it's hard to be sure, as 1 pixel is roughly half a millimetre so you don't need to be too many pixels out to get the wrong size.


***(if you use select tool in paint, it tells you in the bottom left how big the box is in pixels, so just make a selection around the base)

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Ain't no way I'm quoting that wall of text, but related to head-swapping, this is how the heads come on the sprue.

Which is meaningless - its blurry and we only get it from one angle. For all we know what we are seeing is only one half of the hose, which aligns with the other half which is modeled into the torso piece.

Someone mentioned it upthread, but AllSeeingSkink seems to think they'll be 25mm based on comparisons with the Kommandos. Hope that's correct!

I certainly wouldn't mind if Krieg were on 28.5mm bases. It's a lovely size and currently my favourite. The only annoyance is that it's the same height as 25mm bases, ie. 0.5mm less than rest of the range.

I'll wait for Krieg before I decide how to base my Vostroyan.

jullevi wrote:
I certainly wouldn't mind if Krieg were on 28.5mm bases. It's a lovely size and currently my favourite. The only annoyance is that it's the same height as 25mm bases, ie. 0.5mm less than rest of the range.

I'll wait for Krieg before I decide how to base my Vostroyan.

It's not really that the base size in itself that's the issue, it's that if they're on 28.5mm bases they're giants.

 Crimson wrote:

jullevi wrote:
I certainly wouldn't mind if Krieg were on 28.5mm bases. It's a lovely size and currently my favourite. The only annoyance is that it's the same height as 25mm bases, ie. 0.5mm less than rest of the range.

I'll wait for Krieg before I decide how to base my Vostroyan.

It's not really that the base size in itself that's the issue, it's that if they're on 28.5mm bases they're giants.

That's a good point, I didn't think of it. Usually I am pretty good at guessing base sizes from pictures but this time I can't tell the difference.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Ain't no way I'm quoting that wall of text, but related to head-swapping, this is how the heads come on the sprue.

Pretty clear then that the heads are fully separate. And we can see gaps between the hose and torso in the promo pics, so it's highly unlikely that part of the hose is molded into the torso due to the constraints of injection molding (no undercuts).

Looks like you'll then have to figure out what you want to do with the rebreather pack on the chest, but headswaps seem doable.

Yeah. The comparison image someone produced earlier between the FW and GW DKoK minis was generally received positively because it implied a generally comparable sizing between the two that would look good side-by-side on table. Yes there are some issues (mainly in the difference in size in their lasguns), but its easy to overlook it if it doesn't bother you much, etc.

But that comparison was based on both minis bases being 25mm. If the plastic DKoK is actually on a 28.5mm then there is going to be a significant size difference between the minis to the point that it would be difficult to use them side-by-side. This might not be an issue for some who never purchased forgeworlds minis, but if you have an existing DKoK army it puts you into a very "feelsbad" situation where you will probably have to pick between continuing to use your legacy FW minis or updating to the new GW minis because using them together will likely not produce visually appealing results.

On stream, they did say that they felt the scaling between the two was good and you would be able to use them both side by side, I believe they also promised to post side by side comparison photos on Warcom or social media so people could get a better sense of what they look like together. Hopefully that means there is no really significant or non-overlookable difference between them - but given that FWs DKoK were slightly shorter and more realistically proportioned than Cadians and Catachans and the like to begin with, and the recent trend in GWs sculpting has seen "average" humans standing about a head taller than older minis did, I find it hard to believe that the new DKoK aren't going to look like giants next to the old minis.

If it turns out they're 28.5mm bases I can update the picture I made earlier.

chaos0xomega wrote:
but given that FWs DKoK were slightly shorter and more realistically proportioned than Cadians and Catachans and the like to begin with, and the recent trend in GWs sculpting has seen "average" humans standing about a head taller than older minis did, I find it hard to believe that the new DKoK aren't going to look like giants next to the old minis.

The FW DKOK were pretty much the same height as the Cadians. I own both and have them side by side on my desk now. The DKOK are just a lot more realistically proportioned, so they look smaller, but they're the same height nonetheless.

And from memory, Cadians were roughly the same height as basic (non-Primaris) Marines, so hopefully they don't grow the DKOK taller than the old Space Marines.

I've got my fingers crossed for 25mm bases judging on the images we've seen, if they turn out to be 28.5mm they aren't going to look good next to the old DKOK.

If they turn out to be 28.5 they aren't going to look good next to literally anything in the Guard range

Back in the day I would have said that there was no way for them to be on 28.5.

All human sized characters and miniatures have been 25mm and kept a consistent scale, like skitarii and genestealer cultists.

But then sisters of battle happened. And then Underworlds vampires happened. And Cursed City humans happened.

Not exactly shocking that GW's new products might not match seamlessly with their old products.

T5 Orks on 32s makes sense since they're big models and being treated as heftier boyz. Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.


(Pic from Spikeybits.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.


(Pic from Spikeybits.)

Woah. I just lost all interest in them.

Oh good, Primaris Humans

What was the point of Primaris, if they're just gonna make humans Marine-sized again? So they can upscale the Marines a second time later?

Y'all are taking the stupid base size "problem" waayyyyyy too seriously.

Just put them on 25's.

yikes! Well Since they are a bit like a unique unit, maybe just maybe their scale is slightly off...

Who am I kidding its a freaking giant XD

Racerguy180 wrote:
Y'all are taking the stupid base size "problem" waayyyyyy too seriously.

Just put them on 25's.

I feel like you're missing the issue

If Kriegers are on 28.5 bases then they're borderline Primaris-sized

the whole point of Primaris as True Scale Marines is pointless if humans are the same size as Marines again

Blastaar wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.

(Pic from Spikeybits.)

Woah. I just lost all interest in them.

That's dumb. Humans should be staying the same size with better proportions to line up with the other things like Marines and Orks getting scale tweaked.

I have trouble caring too much about the 'scale' of the minis when the tabletops aren't really to scale either. It's just not a 'scale' game.

 gorgon wrote:
I have trouble caring too much about the 'scale' of the minis when the tabletops aren't really to scale either. It's just not a 'scale' game.

Yeah but humans shouldn't be Marine-sized.

Yeah but I have trouble caring, like I said.

We can kinda do that dance all day long.

Define Marine sized, there are many Marine models in many different sizes.

 gorgon wrote:
I have trouble caring too much about the 'scale' of the minis when the tabletops aren't really to scale either. It's just not a 'scale' game.

I mean, I'm sure other people don't have trouble, it's down to each own aesthetic values.

To me, bigger marines, smaller humans look better than same size everything.

Yeah it's a matter of taste but to my taste scale creep means I just won't buy them. Hope others can enjoy them. Wish GW would be a bit more disciplined with this stuff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.


(Pic from Spikeybits.)

"...the Commissar was a hunk of a man. He was as tall as a Primaris Space Marine and could have any woman he wanted. He could even sneak into a Heretic Astartes camp, snap a traitors neck, take his power armour and disguise himself as one of their own. Abaddon himself would bellow 'Jeff, you old scally wag! Get over here and have a drink with me! And he would. He'd take a sip of the finest Slaanesh ale and then after sharing a hilarious joke about how useless Death Guard are, would then snap his neck and save the galaxy. Then he would pop back home, sit in the Emperor's chair and ask Greyfax to put the kettle on."

But seriously, hes a bit tall for a guardman.

It was kind of obvious after the Vampire releases

Let's fething pray Krieg aren't Gaunt-sized

Gaunt seems bigger than needed. Other Guardsmen in the unit are fine.
Untwist your knickers, ladies!

Blastaar wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.


(Pic from Spikeybits.)

Woah. I just lost all interest in them.

That just seems absurd, really. I suppose that shows the whole idea of "Primaris Marines were so they could make Marines Truescale" was wrong if they're now making everything else bigger too, re-introducing the original problem of them being the wrong size.

I don't think the idea made much sense anyway as Primaris Marines were said to be bigger than standard marines, so they'd still have been not quite the right size for Primaris Marine miniatures.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Gaunt seems bigger than needed. Other Guardsmen in the unit are fine.
Untwist your knickers, ladies!

Still looks oversized to me. But you're mischaracterising me saying "I don't want to buy these" as more of an emotional reaction than it is.

Is'nt Gaunt taller than the Rest of his First and Only?

Rest of Gaunt'S Ghosts look fitting.

The Soulblight Vampires from AOS were also massive, at least the Underworlds team (and the vampire centaur, but that gets a pass).

The humans from Cursed City were also massive. I think the witch hunter was primaris sized (and not just due to his big hat.)

I hope they're not making humans too big. Orks and primaris being large works great. Humans, not so much. Except for painting

There's a picture of Gaunt next to a FW Krieg too, lol.

 Da Boss wrote:
Still looks oversized to me. But you're mischaracterising me saying "I don't want to buy these" as more of an emotional reaction than it is.

Please note that the trooper is standing upright while the Marine's legs are angled. If the Marine would stand like that, he would be ~1 to 1.5 heads higher than he already is.

Thing is gaunt models look so nice!

Sorry to interrupt the Krieg talk, are there any announcements/leaks on pricing of the ork stuff, particularly kommandos/boyz?

Surely kommandos aren't going to be more than $60 (right?) since that's the price for most new 10 man units, which is nice compared to the old $45 for 5. But are boyz going to be... $45? $60? Almost certainly not less than $45 since that's what Cadians are running now, and only an increase of $9 from their current price. Are we going to see $60 boyz, making it extremely expensive to start a new ork army?

I really like how people overreact to commissar model blind to the fact A ) primaris is heavily leaning forward making him look shorter B ) Gaunt is not held at the same height but a bit higher, and most importantly C ) Gaunt is made full head taller by his dumb hat, without which he would be no taller than any other Tanith dude. He is nowhere near close to a vampire in height. Headless chicken panic much?

Bit of banter to be honest.

Goose LeChance wrote:
There's a picture of Gaunt next to a FW Krieg too, lol.

Spoiler:

Thanks for this pic, BTW. If you draw a line from where top of Gaunt head would be to Krieger helmet, they are exactly the same height given Krieg model is leaning forward a bit. Yup, ""primaris"" Gaunt is the exact same size as "tiny" Krieg

The only difference is, Gaunt looks like adult fit soldier, unlike anorexic 15 year old Barbie look Kieger has. Look at his ankles, paint job on this model masks it but Krieg uniform is long pants put into long, leather boots, plus reinforced wraps on top of it. 3 thick layers of material, making his ankles about as thick as his fingers. These are not ""human"" proportions, even necrons have thicker legs than that.

Headcannon: Gaunt and his Ghosts are absolute Chads.

Fix'd.

People over-react? "If these models are in scale I will buy them. If they are not, I will not" is not overreacting or headless chicken panic.

 Irbis wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
There's a picture of Gaunt next to a FW Krieg too, lol.

Spoiler:

Thanks for this pic, BTW. If you draw a line from where top of Gaunt head would be to Krieger helmet, they are exactly the same height given Krieg model is leaning forward a bit. Yup, ""primaris"" Gaunt is the exact same size as "tiny" Krieg

The only difference is, Gaunt looks like adult fit soldier, unlike anorexic 15 year old Barbie look Kieger has. Look at his ankles, paint job on this model masks it but Krieg uniform is long pants put into long, leather boots, plus reinforced wraps on top of it. 3 thick layers of material, making his ankles about as thick as his fingers. These are not ""human"" proportions, even necrons have thicker legs than that.

Also, that Primaris lore about being the marines being bigger is some iron-clad hinge upon which the story is built, and not an obvious coping mechanism turned marketing tactic offered to long-time fans to prevent them from revolting at the fact that their multi-thousand dollar and multi-year investments were heading towards obsolescence! Bigger models look better, are more fun to sculpt and are easier to paint! The story of scale is just an analgesic.

 Irbis wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
There's a picture of Gaunt next to a FW Krieg too, lol.

Spoiler:

Thanks for this pic, BTW. If you draw a line from where top of Gaunt head would be to Krieger helmet, they are exactly the same height given Krieg model is leaning forward a bit. Yup, ""primaris"" Gaunt is the exact same size as "tiny" Krieg

The only difference is, Gaunt looks like adult fit soldier, unlike anorexic 15 year old Barbie look Kieger has. Look at his ankles, paint job on this model masks it but Krieg uniform is long pants put into long, leather boots, plus reinforced wraps on top of it. 3 thick layers of material, making his ankles about as thick as his fingers. These are not ""human"" proportions, even necrons have thicker legs than that.

You gotta be kidding me right? Gaunt looks like an absolute mutant.

At least his feet are smaller than the new Krieg though

 Da Boss wrote:
People over-react? "If these models are in scale I will buy them. If they are not, I will not" is not overreacting or headless chicken panic.

Basically that. At the end of the day, the thing is that I like this:



...much more than these:



And I'll vote with my money. Plus, well... I already have those above for Krieg

 flaherty wrote:
Bigger models look better, are more fun to sculpt and are easier to paint! The story of scale is just an analgesic.

I'm going to disagree on all counts. Well, I don't know if they're more "fun" to sculpt, but given it's all digital sculpting these days I doubt it matters.

But I've always found smaller models to look better and also be easier to paint. The bigger a model is, the more it stands out when you screw up. A small model you can get away with roughly slopping paint on to the details, on a big model it really stands out if you didn't get your flesh blends right so they end up much harder to paint to a good standard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:
The only difference is, Gaunt looks like adult fit soldier, unlike anorexic 15 year old Barbie look Kieger has. Look at his ankles, paint job on this model masks it but Krieg uniform is long pants put into long, leather boots, plus reinforced wraps on top of it. 3 thick layers of material, making his ankles about as thick as his fingers. These are not ""human"" proportions, even necrons have thicker legs than that.

Aaaaaand we're back on ankles again I dunno where you live that people have ankles like elephants, but the DKOKer looks like a normal human to me, and they're clearly modelling it on WW1 style puttees over ankle boots.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Gaunt seems bigger than needed. Other Guardsmen in the unit are fine.
Untwist your knickers, ladies!

Oof, the size.is.not.too bad after all

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. At first glance I was super excited for the Krieg, now I'm willing to wait to see more pictures. I haven't even played a game of 40k in the past 2 editions so it won't be super hard to skip this if it doesn't press the right buttons.

 Crimson wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
Nobody is going to put Guardsman on bigger than 25s.

GW already did. The Gaun'ts Ghosts are on 28,5mm bases and are really big.


(Pic from Spikeybits.)

Gaunt is described as being 2.2 metres tall. This looks about right if a Primaris marine is 2.4 meters (8 feet) or so tall. From Ghostmaker:

Gaunt sat down behind his desk again. He thought about putting his cap on, his jacket. He looked across the cabin and saw his own reflection in the vast bay port. Two metres twenty of solid bone and sinew, the narrow, dangerous face that so well matched his name, the cropped blond hair. He wore his high-waisted dress breeches with their leather braces, a sleeveless undershirt and jack boots. His jacket and cap gave him command and authority. Bare-armed, he gave himself physical power.

Do we know pricing on the full box yet?

Gaunt is blatantly superhuman, so it makes sense he is a giant and close to a Space Marine in size.

Resting One wrote:
Do we know pricing on the full box yet?

Of the new KT? Hopefully the same as Idomitus/Dominion. Ultimately it comes with far fewer miniatures than both those boxes (23, counting the Grot, Squig and Med-Bag as separate minis), but lots of terrain to make up for that.

Commissar Yarrork wrote:
Sorry to interrupt the Krieg talk, are there any announcements/leaks on pricing of the ork stuff, particularly kommandos/boyz?

Surely kommandos aren't going to be more than $60 (right?) since that's the price for most new 10 man units, which is nice compared to the old $45 for 5. But are boyz going to be... $45? $60? Almost certainly not less than $45 since that's what Cadians are running now, and only an increase of $9 from their current price. Are we going to see $60 boyz, making it extremely expensive to start a new ork army?

Nobody knows anything yet because it all literally just got announced two days ago. New ork boyz aren't even up for preorder yet, and the only way to get the Kommandos right now is through the new Kill Team box.


But $60 boyz would suck for sure. That's almost double the price of the current box.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
Nobody knows anything yet because it all literally just got announced two days ago. New ork boyz aren't even up for preorder yet, and the only way to get the Kommandos right now is through the new Kill Team box.


But $60 boyz would suck for sure. That's almost double the price of the current box.

Thanks, I didn't watch the stream so wasn't sure if it was mentioned in there anywhere, or if GW had posted it somewhere other than WC.

I'm expecting Kriegers to be 50 USD standalone, aka more expensive than the """"updated"""" Cadians, because prices always go up. Kommandos probably priced higher than some of the last year's more "Elite" 10-man squad infantry, so around 65-70 USD.

I'm convinced Irbis has never interacted seen another human being in person before. Or maybe they are blind. Either/or.

Anyway, here is an *actual* height comparison after you normalize for the fact that Gaunt and the Kriegsman are not on the same level - and this is being a bit generous to the Kriegsman (who is not leaning forward nearly as much as Irbis thinks it is - I own that mini and am looking at it right now).



I don't know how Irbis thinks the human body works, but no amount of "stand up straight" will make these two anywhere near the same height.

Also, commentary about the bizarre ankle fetish aside, I'm not sure why hes so hung up on the idea that his pants are tucked into long boots with some thick wrap around it. Hes wearing puttees. Historically they were worn specifically because long leather boots were not available during wartime austerity, as the leather used to manufacture them to mid-calf or knee length was often enough to make an entire second set of ankle-height boots from. As such, puttees were worn to protect and support the shin and calf in place of something thicker and to prevent debris from entering the low-cut boot. They are just cloth, nothing "reinforced" about them.

And because I know hes going to argue the point, I checked Imperial Armour. Per Imperial Armour Volume V, The Siege of Vraks Part I, pg 16 "The guardsman's trousers are constructed of the same hardwearing material as the coat [hardwearing thick cloth]. Leg-bindings are used to hold the trousers close to legs and limit the worst effects of muddy conditions. Boots are standard issue low marching boots with hob-nailed soles for grip."

So no, there are not three layers under there, its a low cut ankle-height boot, and its just regular cloth wrapped tightly around the trouser leg. It looks exactly like its supposed to.

Just ignore irbis. Is obvious to the eye that Gaunt is a giant. Now, if its only him or the whole squad and GW is throwing all consistence in human scaling we'll see.

Kriegers should be of the size of skitarii and genestealer cultists. Thats a proper human sized for 28mm that goes gell with necrons, orks, eldar, primaris marines. Why make them bigger?

Meh, Gaunt is supposed to be freakishly tall. Half a head over a regular guy sounds around right. But he still should be noticeably smaller than a Primaris

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Meh, Gaunt is supposed to be freakishly tall. Half a head over a regular guy sounds around right. But he still should be noticeably smaller than a Primaris

He's got almost another head's worth of height just in the cap that he's wearing.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Meh, Gaunt is supposed to be freakishly tall. Half a head over a regular guy sounds around right. But he still should be noticeably smaller than a Primaris

He's got almost another head's worth of height just in the cap that he's wearing.

Unless he's some kind of mutant I assume his head doesn't continue under that cap all the way to the top

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Meh, Gaunt is supposed to be freakishly tall. Half a head over a regular guy sounds around right. But he still should be noticeably smaller than a Primaris

He's got almost another head's worth of height just in the cap that he's wearing.

Unless he's some kind of mutant I assume his head doesn't continue under that cap all the way to the top

Which was my point. The cap adds the extra height, not his head.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Meh, Gaunt is supposed to be freakishly tall. Half a head over a regular guy sounds around right. But he still should be noticeably smaller than a Primaris

He's got almost another head's worth of height just in the cap that he's wearing.

Unless he's some kind of mutant I assume his head doesn't continue under that cap all the way to the top

Which was my point. The cap adds the extra height, not his head.

That doesn't change the fact that the top of the Kriegsmans head isn't even at Gaunts eye level.

Well, Krieg soldiers are usually young. Maybe all the FW ones haven't hit puberty yet?

Gaunt must be freakin huge.

I'm 203cm
If he's supposed to be 240cm, he's taller than Shaq & Andre the Giant! If he is, then he must weigh around 400lbs just due to skeletal & liquid weights at that height.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Gaunt must be freakin huge.

I'm 203cm
If he's supposed to be 240cm, he's taller than Shaq & Andre the Giant! If he is, then he must weigh around 400lbs just due to skeletal & liquid weights at that height.

220cm, so 20 less. But yes he is freaking huge.

Racerguy180 wrote:
Gaunt must be freakin huge.

I'm 203cm
If he's supposed to be 240cm, he's taller than Shaq & Andre the Giant! If he is, then he must weigh around 400lbs just due to skeletal & liquid weights at that height.

From the post above he's 2.2m (or 7'3") tall.

 Ghaz wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:
Gaunt must be freakin huge.

I'm 203cm
If he's supposed to be 240cm, he's taller than Shaq & Andre the Giant! If he is, then he must weigh around 400lbs just due to skeletal & liquid weights at that height.

From the post above he's 2.2m (or 7'3") tall.

Which is Space Marine height.

 Irbis wrote:
The only difference is, Gaunt looks like adult fit soldier, unlike anorexic 15 year old Barbie look Kieger has. Look at his ankles, paint job on this model masks it but Krieg uniform is long pants put into long, leather boots, plus reinforced wraps on top of it. 3 thick layers of material, making his ankles about as thick as his fingers. These are not ""human"" proportions, even necrons have thicker legs than that.

You've never seen a soldier wearing puttees before, have you?



Thin cloth wraps around thin wool trousers, no boots under there, the whole point of puttees or gaiters is to provide weather protection when you don't have ankle-height boots.

Gaunt is 220cm/7' tall?!

On FB someone was just posting that Tanith knives are described as 10cm/4", basically steak knives.

So it's possible that Abnet thinks in inches and doesn't always get his metric right.

Ya'll have got me super worried about the size of these new dkok now, lol. If they are indeed on 28mm that is a bit concerning for sure I would hope they would be pretty close to genestealer cultist size.

Commissar Yarrork wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:
Nobody knows anything yet because it all literally just got announced two days ago. New ork boyz aren't even up for preorder yet, and the only way to get the Kommandos right now is through the new Kill Team box.


But $60 boyz would suck for sure. That's almost double the price of the current box.

Thanks, I didn't watch the stream so wasn't sure if it was mentioned in there anywhere, or if GW had posted it somewhere other than WC.

GW don’t announce prices until the products are up on the site. Games stores get their price lists on the Monday before the pre-orders go up generally and they normally end up on here, so we’ll know just before anything is up for sale.

 Thargrim wrote:
Ya'll have got me super worried about the size of these new dkok now, lol. If they are indeed on 28mm that is a bit concerning for sure I would hope they would be pretty close to genestealer cultist size.

Well, if gives any hope, this is my pixel counting...



The highest ratio I got was (29px/35px) * 32mm = 26.5mm, the lowest ratio I got was (28px/37px) * 32mm = 24.2mm.

So my guess is still that the DKOK bases will be 25mm. I did check a few other ones elsewhere in the image and also on the other image (that shows the same board from a different angle) and got 24-26mm pretty consistently.

Unless the Orks aren't on 32mm bases, do GW do 35mm bases? That would put the DKOK up into the 28mm range.

Of course given the blurriness of the images I'm also not going to be surprised if my pixel counting is wrong.

That image looks to put the orks on intercessor size bases (32mm). No way those orks are on 40mm, and I don't think GW does any size in between. So that looks pretty promising now.

Thanks for the pixel counting!

 Thargrim wrote:
That image looks to put the orks on intercessor size bases (32mm). No way those orks are on 40mm, and I don't think GW does any size in between. So that looks pretty promising now.

we also thought there is no size between 25mm and 32mm until we got single units with 28,5mm

so 35/36mm Bases are not ruled out just because GW does not have them on older units
(or we just again have a faulty base size with the top being the actual size and bottom being larger)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Gaunt is 220cm/7' tall?!

On FB someone was just posting that Tanith knives are described as 10cm/4", basically steak knives.

So it's possible that Abnet thinks in inches and doesn't always get his metric right.

Seeing as there were a lot of 2m+ characters in his novels, that's a certain possibility.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Gaunt is 220cm/7' tall?!

On FB someone was just posting that Tanith knives are described as 10cm/4", basically steak knives.

So it's possible that Abnet thinks in inches and doesn't always get his metric right.

Seeing as there were a lot of 2m+ characters in his novels, that's a certain possibility.

At some point I got it into my head that the rule of thumb is "1m=1 yard and change" which is a fine way to do quick estimates of distances and lengths. How far to the bus stop and such, 100m and 100 years isn't a big difference.

But when you apply it to people that "and change" makes a big difference. A 6'2" person (a typical hero height) is not 2m and change. A 2m person is an NBA starter.

Doesn't explain the 10cm knives though, no one is going to think 10cm is longer than 10".

Maybe he mean the blade is 10cm wide

 Thargrim wrote:
Ya'll have got me super worried about the size of these new dkok now, lol. If they are indeed on 28mm that is a bit concerning for sure I would hope they would be pretty close to genestealer cultist size.

I think it’s safe and they won’t be, the rules are for veteran guard it seems. So unless they are using the base size for all vet guard, I think they will keep them sized as normal.

So in the grim darkness of the far future everyone is really bloody tall, and Space Marines are just average height? Maybe all those genetic mods during their teen years stunts their growth.

@kid_lyoto, 100 years to your nearest bustop...
jeez you must live out in the middle of some salt flats or something? you got a helicopter? LOL

anyway, Im surprised at all this base size controversy but also just as shocked to find out about the absurd sizing of the gaunt models.
I'd never heard of a 28.5 base untill today so thats news to me.

tis true that the ghosts are way too big, but we'll just have to wait and see pics to confirm about the dkok to be absolutely sure.
all this conjecture is fine and all, and yeah, the pixel counted image does ensure the basesize and the other image a few post back suggests that proportionately, if its a given the plastics are 25m base and you scale the image to match the size of the bases with a resin kriegsmen, then yes. the sizes are comprable.
but we could still be wrong.

gw's scaling has gone a bit wanky-dosa all over the ranges. espescially necromunda.
perhaps the ghosts are bigger simply because as a one off set of character models, the designers were give a fair bit of artistic license and simply figured that a unit like that would be on its own so perhaps you wouldn't notice.
yeah I know, weak explanation.
tbh thats a crappy excuse for a foul-up that could easily have been avoided in the world of 3d print prototyping we, and GW, currrently live in.
put it this way, try as you might, fans theres no fluffy spin that can explain that away convincingly enough for me.

I'm really not sure whats going on with gw's scale but its all over the shop in necromunda.
the orlocks and van saar and cordaw seem to be +/- on scale with cadians/gscs but the eschers, enforcers and also the delaque are way WAY too tall. goliaths can be forgiven because, goliaths! but come on man.
I know its a different game system to 40k but wtf? the gangs aren't even on scale with each other! whats with that?

the scale thing will definately be a make or break for me. I intend to use these dkok alongside a guard army I've been currently converting. if the scale is out too far then I simply cant use them with the bits I have and that makes them useless to me.

however, with the evidence thats been presented by you all here, I'm confident that they are +/- on par with a resin kriegsman.
just a bit more gw plastic chunkiness hither and yon but ok heightwise...

5 things you need to know about Kill Team

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/13/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-totally-rebuilt-kill-team/

1 All new skirmish rules
2 Brand New Stats
3 Battle for Octarius (I really did not NEED to know that)
4 Alternating Activations
5 In depth customization

(more on their site obviously)

Am I the only one who doesn't actually like alternating activations? It's always held up as a gold standard over IGOUGO. However I've always found the latter to be a better compromise for the abstraction of not being able to move everything simultaneously.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
5 things you need to know about Kill Team

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/13/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-totally-rebuilt-kill-team/

1 All new skirmish rules
2 Brand New Stats
3 Battle for Octarius (I really did not NEED to know that)
4 Alternating Activations
5 In depth customization

(more on their site obviously)

Well that was not worth reading D; less info than the YouTube videos looking at the squinty pages.

I like the example guard and Ork models to show off the different way the same miniature can be built. If this is a sign of the future of plastic kits then then this is very positive.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
5 things you need to know about Kill Team
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/13/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-totally-rebuilt-kill-team/

1 All new skirmish rules
2 Brand New Stats
3 Battle for Octarius (I really did not NEED to know that)
4 Alternating Activations
5 In depth customization

Confirms some of the rules speculation based on blurry screens of the reveal stream. Especially:

"Front-line troopers can act with comrades" -- One of the unit stats is "Group Activation". The Krieg specialists are GA 1 but the troopers are GA 2. So you can activate two normal troopers at a time.

"powerful soldiers, like the mighty Space Marines, can even perform more actions in a turn than lesser beings" -- Another stat is "Action Point Limit". The Krieg untis are all APL 2, so in one activation they can move and shoot, for example. But apparently Marines have APL > 2.

 osjclatchford wrote:


I'm really not sure whats going on with gw's scale but its all over the shop in necromunda.
the orlocks and van saar and cordaw seem to be +/- on scale with cadians/gscs but the eschers, enforcers and also the delaque are way WAY too tall. goliaths can be forgiven because, goliaths! but come on man.

I have Orlocks, Eschers, Goliaths and Van Saars and they all seem fine and proportioned to me. Eschers are supposed to be some sort of post apocalyptic amazons, they look perfect IMHO. Eschers also wear heels that make them look tallers than they are.

Apple fox wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
5 things you need to know about Kill Team

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/13/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-totally-rebuilt-kill-team/

1 All new skirmish rules
2 Brand New Stats
3 Battle for Octarius (I really did not NEED to know that)
4 Alternating Activations
5 In depth customization

(more on their site obviously)

Well that was not worth reading D; less info than the YouTube videos looking at the squinty pages.

But, I got a new picture to pixel count to estimate base size!

DKOK with sword in the bottom left versus the Ork standing next to him, (72px/92px) * 32mm = .....25.04mm! And this pic is big enough that even if I'm a few pixels off, it won't throw the result far enough to get 28.5mm.

25mm base lovers can breathe a sigh of relief, and it also means the comparison pic I made earlier in the thread should be valid, so these dudes won't look totally out of place next to older IG models.

I love this color scheme. So cool.

The new article shows a better look at the size comparison. A lot of the Kriegers look tall than the orks (who all slouch, but still), except for the Nob who we already know is massive.

 GaroRobe wrote:

Spoiler:

I love this color scheme. So cool.

Ditto! They should have used a grittier scheme like that instead of the one they used in the 1st preview.

And Dark Sphere has already started a reserve reserving list...

There's a height reference in one of the images in the new article for the dkok, at least. The group shot with the green coat dkok in the imperial city ruins has a dkok miniature almost flat up against a piece of widely available terrain at the far back. So someone with access to that terrain could potentially measure a point on the terrain from the base to get a rough height of the miniature.

I like this shot. There's a medic carrying his bag, a sniper, a spotter a flamer; essentially a completely different squad from the same kit.
I really hope they do more kits in the same style. Imagine a couple of Eldar kits like this. It would be a dream come true.

This, sadly, is not new terrain:



Big spooky hooded skull guy is actually from this kit.

Man that took way too long for me to figure out.

Chikout wrote:
I really hope they do more kits in the same style.

You mean the type of kit they did all the time up until the weird shift between 1kSons and Death Guard? Yeah. We all hope that.

Chikout wrote:
I like this shot. There's a medic carrying his bag, a sniper, a spotter a flamer; essentially a completely different squad from the same kit.
I really hope they do more kits in the same style. Imagine a couple of Eldar kits like this. It would be a dream come true.

I didn't even bother looking at that pic, but I'm glad you posted it. There's so many cool options. Like you mentioned, medic carrying a bag, a flamer.
But theres also a dude with binoculars, what I'm guessing is a guy loading a flare gun, etc.

And they're all in that great green color scheme.

Chikout wrote:
I like this shot. There's a medic carrying his bag, a sniper, a spotter a flamer; essentially a completely different squad from the same kit.
I really hope they do more kits in the same style. Imagine a couple of Eldar kits like this. It would be a dream come true.

This is what kits were like till, I dunno, the Mechanicus? Genestealer Cults?

Then the weird multipart but monopose model took over.

The Krieg look miles ahead of the older multipose kits and I hope we have more like this to look forward to.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't actually like alternating activations? It's always held up as a gold standard over IGOUGO. However I've always found the latter to be a better compromise for the abstraction of not being able to move everything simultaneously.

Yes. Yes you are.

are these really multipose, or just the same old alternate arms/heads/bits added onto a fixed leg/torso set, but with multiple options (A/B/C/D) rather than the two a seen with the plague marines?

not that I think they look bad, and given they don't have the repeated pustules/damage they'll look far more unique than plague mrines done in a similar manner

We don’t know is the short answer.

We don’t know is also the long answer.

Do the Kriegers look really tall to anyone else? I’m a little concerned even humans are going to start to dwarf the Orks soon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This, sadly, is not new terrain:



Big spooky hooded skull guy is actually from this kit.

Man that took way too long for me to figure out.

Chikout wrote:
I really hope they do more kits in the same style.

You mean the type of kit they did all the time up until the weird shift between 1kSons and Death Guard? Yeah. We all hope that.

They look like on 25mm Bases...

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
are these really multipose, or just the same old alternate arms/heads/bits added onto a fixed leg/torso set, but with multiple options (A/B/C/D) rather than the two a seen with the plague marines?

not that I think they look bad, and given they don't have the repeated pustules/damage they'll look far more unique than plague mrines done in a similar manner

You cannot do true multipose (Old ork boyz, tactical marines, etc etc...) like in ye olde days with greatcoat models. The more similar thing I can think of are Dark Angels Veterans and... I have a ton of those models but those robes don't look very good.

So a fixed torso with legs (Just like skitarii are) with great freedom for arms is the best one can do.

It's hard to get a good multipose kit. And honestly, DKK are all about a lack of individuality. It doesn't matter if they all look the same, since they're all just clones wearing similar gear. However, it's great that they didn't go the easy-build/snapfit route with them. You have two different options for the medic (kneeling with syringe or running with a bag), you can choose heavy weapons, you can build them all as identical grunts, etc. Hopefully the popularity of these kinds of kits will convince GW to go away from the plague marine route.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't actually like alternating activations?

Yes, probably.

 GaroRobe wrote:
It's hard to get a good multipose kit. And honestly, DKK are all about a lack of individuality. It doesn't matter if they all look the same, since they're all just clones wearing similar gear.

I feel like too much monoposing on what're nigh-identical minatures would actually look worse than on a kit with different head/arm/detail options. The similarity would exacerbate the visual sameiness.

AA but also with Group Activations? AP's are back?! Oh man, I'm starting to get excited about this new KT ruleset! I still lament the loss of old datasheets for BSF & Co but will welcome a new skirmish ruleset if it's a good one.

Sounds to me like GW finally listened to some of yall 40K haters who always love to remark how much "antiquated IGOUGO sucks" compared to "modern skirmish rulesets". So now we are getting some of that modern touch.

And did I mention I love the fact DKoK remained @ 25mil? These new pics are showing more of those 170+ components we're getting, and I like what I'm seeing here!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
are these really multipose, or just the same old alternate arms/heads/bits added onto a fixed leg/torso set, but with multiple options (A/B/C/D) rather than the two a seen with the plague marines?

as far as we have seen from the sprues, it is monopose with a lot of options

 tauist wrote:
AA but also with Group Activations? AP's are back?! Oh man, I'm starting to get excited about this new KT ruleset! I still lament the loss of old datasheets for BSF & Co but will welcome a new skirmish ruleset if it's a good one.

Sounds to me like GW finally listened to some of yall 40K haters who always love to remark how much "antiquated IGOUGO sucks" compared to "modern skirmish rulesets". So now we are getting some of that modern touch.

GW have dabbled in various forms of AA for a few years across various games now. Even the previous Kill Team edition was a weird hybrid of alternating phases and AA-but-not.

The problem is they still seem reluctant to commit to it with 40k or AoS.

I mean, tbh, as long as you have enough variety of arm/head options, these won't really be any more "monopose" than, say, the plastic Cadians. Sure, you can attach the torsos of the latter to the 5 different legs however you please but there's like only about 30º max of rotation you can get out of them before they look stupid.

This is all starting to look really positive. The only thing stopping me wanting this box is the Ork terrain. The Sector Imperialis terrain was beautiful but now sadly, mostly out of production.

Those pictures seem to suggest the kriegers are on 25mms. That's great.

 Nazrak wrote:
I mean, tbh, as long as you have enough variety of arm/head options, these won't really be any more "monopose" than, say, the plastic Cadians. Sure, you can attach the torsos of the latter to the 5 different legs however you please but there's like only about 30º max of rotation you can get out of them before they look stupid.

Yes, and even then, if you skip the "puttying up the joints" phase of the build, the results will look a bit janky. Monopose is much more hasslefree, and you can always get busy with the razor saw and some putty if you feel like altering things.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't actually like alternating activations? It's always held up as a gold standard over IGOUGO. However I've always found the latter to be a better compromise for the abstraction of not being able to move everything simultaneously.

AA works great here - AND - they even indicated that more elite models like marines will activate more thereby preventing swarms from out activating elites. Throw in the lack of overly massive units and you won't see elites overwhelming on a single activation, either. Win win.

AA is a key part of AT's excellent gameplay. Seems like a solid choice for KT, although I feel like it could get tedious with 40K proper. It kinda depends on the miniature game, I think.

AA in a large army scale game might work better with "detatchment" level activation rather than individual units. You could even use points values to determine your detachments, so each detachment would be roughly equivalent even if one army is horde and the other is elite.

 gorgon wrote:
AA is a key part of AT's excellent gameplay. Seems like a solid choice for KT, although I feel like it could get tedious with 40K proper. It kinda depends on the miniature game, I think.

Has to be a game system built around it. It’s not something you can just swap out for IGOUGO.

The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

First thing what popped on my head was swapping Krieg helmet with Skitarii Vanguard one. And it seems doable!


And for giggles, I would paint them as Steel Legion colour scheme.

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

Links, please!

Now you've put me on the spot
Here's one I found today I really liked:
https://twitter.com/vidpui/status/1415002834970497026

 Gert wrote:
Now you've put me on the spot
Here's one I found today I really liked:
https://twitter.com/vidpui/status/1415002834970497026

Yes, that does have something of the French Foreign Legion look, although in that case the Wargames Atlantic kepi blanc heads would be better, provided they are not too small

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

My favorite is the one that swapped the stahlhelm/adrian bastard child for more of a straight adrian: https://twitter.com/DiceyJune/status/1414700718351536141/photo/1

Which has me thinking that the more adrian/brody hybrid style helmets used by the Crucible Guard in Warmachine might be some good conversion fodder.

The Shock Gendarmerie of Guerre shall rise!

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

My favorite is the one that swapped the stahlhelm/adrian bastard child for more of a straight adrian: https://twitter.com/DiceyJune/status/1414700718351536141/photo/1

Which has me thinking that the more adrian/brody hybrid style helmets used by the Crucible Guard in Warmachine might be some good conversion fodder.

The Shock Gendarmerie of Guerre shall rise!

At this point you could just buy Grognards from WGA

I avoid 3rd party stuff since my local is a GW store so a viable GW option for greatcoat minis is nice to see.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

My favorite is the one that swapped the stahlhelm/adrian bastard child for more of a straight adrian: https://twitter.com/DiceyJune/status/1414700718351536141/photo/1

Which has me thinking that the more adrian/brody hybrid style helmets used by the Crucible Guard in Warmachine might be some good conversion fodder.

The Shock Gendarmerie of Guerre shall rise!

At this point you could just buy Grognards from WGA

If I wanted mediocre Napoleonic guard knockoffs Id just kitbash actual Napoleonic minis.

you won't because the those are made for Rank & File and are not looking very good in large Skirmish formations

but there are enough heads around anyway, Anvil Industry and Puppets War have all the options needed for the different styled adrian/brody helmets

I'm really hoping for some plastic Death Riders. Definitely the coolest rough riders GW have ever produced and I love the idea of augmented biological horses being used to cross the wastelands of the 41st Millennium. I did a lot of looking around for stuff in the same style and didn't turn up much that was accessible in Europe.

To me Rough Riders have always been a major part of the visual image of the Imperial Guard. It really drives home how archaic their method of war is and yet with augmentation and technology (and sheer weight of numbers) that it also - works!

Tbh with the way things seem to be going i can see GW never bringing back Rough Riders... or at least, not for several more editions.

I'm sure Cawl is cooking up some hoverbike-horse hybrids

Goose LeChance wrote:
I'm sure Cawl is cooking up some hoverbike-horse hybrids

You're thinking of hover cat riders. Much better than horses. Fluffier, too.

More rules details:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/14/your-games-of-kill-team-are-going-to-be-electrifyingly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

Goose LeChance wrote:
I'm sure Cawl is cooking up some hoverbike-horse hybrids

Well the Ad Mech already have Bravestar mech horses - so Guard could get hover-horses! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUfJuOp7Dck

All I know so far is that the green colour scheme shown in the newest article makes Krieg look so much better!

Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

I like the idea of alternate IG regiments because represented through Kill Team. Hopefully they'll do Vostroyan at one point.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like the idea of alternate IG regiments because represented through Kill Team. Hopefully they'll do Vostroyan at one point.

Doesn't take a lot to imagine a Catachan v Tyranids set!

 Scrub wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like the idea of alternate IG regiments because represented through Kill Team. Hopefully they'll do Vostroyan at one point.

Doesn't take a lot to imagine a Catachan v Tyranids set!

I mean, it makes sense.
They don't have to make a complete range and it satisfies that itch for non-cadian sculpts.
They will also make a disgusting amount of money from people who actually want to build a complete army of non-cadians as they will have to buy a lot of those kill team sets.
From a business perspective (coming from an amateur, mind you), it seems like a good strategy.

 tauist wrote:
More rules details:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/14/your-games-of-kill-team-are-going-to-be-electrifyingly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

That movement system looks psychotic.

 Altruizine wrote:

That movement system looks psychotic.

I agree, absent further information. Unless there's some kind of mechanic where each segment of movement allows reactions or similar, but otherwise it seems an unnecessary complication over just putting a full move stat on the sheet.

Ignispacium wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

That movement system looks psychotic.

I agree, absent further information. Unless there's some kind of mechanic where each segment of movement allows reactions or similar, but otherwise it seems an unnecessary complication over just putting a full move stat on the sheet.

Even if that were the case, it could be implemented more like Infinity. Say, reactions after each AP spent or some such.

 Esmer wrote:
Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

 Altruizine wrote:

 tauist wrote:
More rules details:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/14/your-games-of-kill-team-are-going-to-be-electrifyingly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

That movement system looks psychotic.

It’s pretty damn wild.

Cronch wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

Spoiler:

Well, the French military realized its mistake after like 2 weeks

Sure, but it's a real life inspiration. WW1 frenchies fit Kriegers far better than WW1 germans. But stick a gasmask on any human, and suddenly it becomes The Hun.

Cronch wrote:
Sure, but it's a real life inspiration. WW1 frenchies fit Kriegers far better than WW1 germans. But stick a gasmask on any human, and suddenly it becomes The Hun.

But WWI frenchies were like that for about two weeks of the war. After that (you know, four years), they kinda veered to this:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 tauist wrote:
More rules details:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/14/your-games-of-kill-team-are-going-to-be-electrifyingly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

That movement system looks psychotic.

It’s pretty damn wild.

so the dude can walk 6 inches? aka 3 x 2"? Probably for the ammount of actions?
The vox has six inches? probably using vox is one action ?
Also is range just not a thing anymore?

 Scrub wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like the idea of alternate IG regiments because represented through Kill Team. Hopefully they'll do Vostroyan at one point.

Doesn't take a lot to imagine a Catachan v Tyranids set!

Yeah that would be awesome. Especially if the Catachans look like grizzled veteran Rambo (but not so monopose):



It's been a long time since I've been excited by anything from GW. I wish the box came with a lower price and no terrain...Assuming I can get one before it sells out.

 bullyboy wrote:
All I know so far is that the green colour scheme shown in the newest article makes Krieg look so much better!

Yeah. That looks very nice.
---

The system looks _bizarre_. A weird mix of symbols, numbers and gauges seems far inferior to me than just using words. Just tell me that they can move 6 inches and not that the have 3 circle moves of 2", and that its somehow easier to 'modify' the new way.
I assume combat is the A value vs the weapon vs the Df value on the card. Hopefully a roll off (d6+A vs d6+Df) rather than a simultaneous roll under system or something similar with a lot of failure points. Or maybe number of dice you roll, which has all sorts of potential problems (but make close combat stupid fast in comparison to how laborious everything else seems to be).

And probably 6s crit since damage is 2/3.
7 wounds, but even lasguns and bayonets do 2. So... 3.5 wounds, because GW loves fishing for 6s as a mechanic.

I wonder if the reason it’s 2xcircle or whatever is because it’s going to be like x wing (or dare I say it fallout) where you move front to back along the template not front to front.

Thus 2x 3 is not the same as 6 as you add the width of the base with each incremental move.

It lets you place and pivot the widget as you move and weirdly we find it seems to gel with non wargamers when we demo at shows (but drives some of us vets up the wall at first).

My current biggest worry is how they're going to balance 10 orks + 2 semi-orks against 10 guardsmen, veteran or no. Glass Half Dead said there was a datasheet with orks having 14 wounds, which makes sense, mind you. How will guard be able to handle that if the orks have even similar firepower?
I hope this isn't another pariah nexus situation.

You know I've just realised that the gaunts ghosts models were probably designed with this game system in mind... Just saying...

Cronch wrote:
Sure, but it's a real life inspiration. WW1 frenchies fit Kriegers far better than WW1 germans. But stick a gasmask on any human, and suddenly it becomes The Hun.

Only now do I realize that you apparently thought I wanted them to look more German for some reason. That's not what I said at all. I meant that a bleak, ca 1917, "trench war is hell", worn-out and mat look, the way the Forgeworld ones were usually presented, suits them far better than the more clean and brightly-colored Kill Team paintjob.

And imo both French pale blue and German pale Green looks good on them. British pale Brown probably too, though I've never seen it done.

No, I just pointed out there was a time, during that same war, where the french were quite colorful. Painting the kriegs in saturated colors wouldn't be out of order at all, if less stereotypical.

 Esmer wrote:
Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

I'm considering using a drybrush technique. I heavily utilised drybrushing on some Nights Watch from the CMON game and was impressed how well it turned out for troops that are supposed to be a bit dirty and gritty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:
No, I just pointed out there was a time, during that same war, where the french were quite colorful. Painting the kriegs in saturated colors wouldn't be out of order at all, if less stereotypical.

It's not so much an issue of colourful, it's an issue of texture.

The same scheme but painted in a way that makes the fabric look more like fabric and either shade them less or shade with browns and I think it'd look pretty good using the general scheme that GW used.

The way GW painted the greatcoats on the blue DKOK almost makes it look like a faux leather rather than fabric.

Cronch wrote:
No, I just pointed out there was a time, during that same war, where the french were quite colorful.

Ideed.

Then they died ^^.

OTOH, it kinda fits for Krieg.

Krieg using bright colour like early French army is just as outdated as the Imperial Guard's main tank bring an upgunned British Mark 1, from 1916. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Krieg using bright colour like early French army is just as outdated as the Imperial Guard's main tank bring an upgunned British Mark 1, from 1916. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

I actually did a first paint test a while ago with basically that scheme:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Krieg using bright colour like early French army is just as outdated as the Imperial Guard's main tank bring an upgunned British Mark 1, from 1916. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

I actually did a first paint test a while ago with basically that scheme:

Spoiler:

That works quite well for him, tbh. Has a nice late 19th century vibe.

 JonWebb wrote:
I wonder if the reason it’s 2xcircle or whatever is because it’s going to be like x wing (or dare I say it fallout) where you move front to back along the template not front to front.

Thus 2x 3 is not the same as 6 as you add the width of the base with each incremental move.

It lets you place and pivot the widget as you move and weirdly we find it seems to gel with non wargamers when we demo at shows (but drives some of us vets up the wall at first).

That would still be psychotic, given the design of the template would require you to place it/pick it up three times to move one standard infantry model.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 tauist wrote:
More rules details:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/14/your-games-of-kill-team-are-going-to-be-electrifyingly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

That movement system looks psychotic.

It’s pretty damn wild.

so the dude can walk 6 inches? aka 3 x 2"? Probably for the ammount of actions?
The vox has six inches? probably using vox is one action ?
Also is range just not a thing anymore?

Got to admit, my first response was ?! too. Though range being irrelevant if it's not something like a flamer or close range melta is something that I could see working.
Standard rifles are going to shoot across a kill team board anyway in 'real life', and with much more dense terrain and a different activation system to 40K, there's less need to create a kind of 'danger topography' with weapon range as there is in regular 40K.

You're losing a level of abstraction as presumably at the start, there will be few fast vehicles. Might even have jump packs just being a redeploy action.

Yeah, not sure why they went that direction for the movement/ranges or whatever. I feel like some exec popped into a local indy store and saw that Asmodee is selling things like range rulers and movement templates for X-Wing/Legion/Armada and was like "WE NEED TO DO THIS TOO" and the poor staff in the design studio had to make it work in the context of the inch-based rules they had already written.

It works in the Star Wars games because everything boils down to a fixed use of the tool, i.e. 'this weapon is range 2" or "this unit moves speed 2", theres no "3x range 2" or whatever nonsense. The tools expedite gameplay by eliminating the need to pull out the length of the tape measure and eliminate arguments as there is more of a hard "cutoff" on the measurements and standardization between players, unlike with a ruler/tape where it continues on past the distance you are trying to measure and manufacturing defects have at times caused there to be significant differences between two players measuring devices. Having things like 3x distance 2 seems to defeat at least some of that purpose, as it means you have to measure "2" 3 separate times, which introduces variability into the process and also makes it take more time - UNLESS as some suggested there is a reason why the move is broken into 3 segments that way.

That being said, I won't fault them for the color/symbol combo - the symbols are there to help those who are color blind, the colors are there for everyone else, as the majority of people can process color quicker than symbol.

 Esmer wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Sure, but it's a real life inspiration. WW1 frenchies fit Kriegers far better than WW1 germans. But stick a gasmask on any human, and suddenly it becomes The Hun.

Only now do I realize that you apparently thought I wanted them to look more German for some reason. That's not what I said at all. I meant that a bleak, ca 1917, "trench war is hell", worn-out and mat look, the way the Forgeworld ones were usually presented, suits them far better than the more clean and brightly-colored Kill Team paintjob.
And imo both French pale blue and German pale Green looks good on them. British pale Brown probably too, though I've never seen it done.

Not gonna lie, I thought this at first myself, but thats because Ive spent most of my morning arguing with a chud on FB who was talking about how he wanted to use a "historically accurate" German uniform scheme on his little plastic ubermensch. He couldn't accept the idea that most of the key points of the uniform are pretty much objectively derived from French style uniforms rather than German ones. Refused to acknowledge the fact that Germans only wore single-breasted coats whereas the DKOK coats resemble the french double-breasted coats, insisted that they were painted Bavarian Cornflower blue rather than french Horizon blue, etc.

Can’t believe we’ve got page after page of people getting mad about one particular GW colour scheme when you can, y’know, paint your guys however you like.

I don't really see the mad, tbh. More like I see people wanting to talk and there's not much else.

 Altruizine wrote:

 JonWebb wrote:
I wonder if the reason it’s 2xcircle or whatever is because it’s going to be like x wing (or dare I say it fallout) where you move front to back along the template not front to front.

Thus 2x 3 is not the same as 6 as you add the width of the base with each incremental move.

It lets you place and pivot the widget as you move and weirdly we find it seems to gel with non wargamers when we demo at shows (but drives some of us vets up the wall at first).

That would still be psychotic, given the design of the template would require you to place it/pick it up three times to move one standard infantry model.

*shrug* There won't be too many models on the table and if the additional rules bring additional context to why then I don't think it will be that much of a burden.

 Nazrak wrote:
Can’t believe we’ve got page after page of people getting mad about one particular GW colour scheme when you can, y’know, paint your guys however you like.

It's not "mad", it's just discussion.

People get inspired (or not) by the schemes they see others paint, and the appeal of a model is often strongly linked to the scheme a person sees it painted in, so it's hardly surprising people are discussing it.

I dunno, those cotton candy blue pants are really pissing me off.

 Nazrak wrote:
Can’t believe we’ve got page after page of people getting mad about one particular GW colour scheme when you can, y’know, paint your guys however you like.

Tell that to all the Marine players salty GW is only relasing Ultramarines and not their super-special totally unique chapter.

'Eavy Metal schemes are bright, colourful and neat so that they're easy to standout on the webstore and all the detail is shown off. It's deliberately crisp even when it shouldn't be - look at how clean and tidy the Death Guard on the webstore are except for the tentacles and pustules. Their armour is as proper and polished as any Custodes.

Look at the green-scheme they've been using on the articles and then look at the Imperial Armour books. They're extremely similar, the greens and browns and greys all going onto more or less the same areas. The difference is that the FW painters probably used more matte paints, slightly darker tones and actively utilised weathering technics and possibly pigments to achieve the more realistic, faded, grimy look to them.

Another good comparison is how FW painted the Horus Heresy kits prior to Betrayal at Calth.

 Arbitrator wrote:
'Eavy Metal schemes are bright, colourful and neat so that they're easy to standout on the webstore and all the detail is shown off. It's deliberately crisp even when it shouldn't be - look at how clean and tidy the Death Guard on the webstore are except for the tentacles and pustules. Their armour is as proper and polished as any Custodes.

Look at the green-scheme they've been using on the articles and then look at the Imperial Armour books. They're extremely similar, the greens and browns and greys all going onto more or less the same areas. The difference is that the FW painters probably used more matte paints, slightly darker tones and actively utilised weathering technics and possibly products to achieve the more realistic, faded, grimy look to them.

Oils, filters, pigments? Something along those lines I'd wager.

 tauist wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
'Eavy Metal schemes are bright, colourful and neat so that they're easy to standout on the webstore and all the detail is shown off. It's deliberately crisp even when it shouldn't be - look at how clean and tidy the Death Guard on the webstore are except for the tentacles and pustules. Their armour is as proper and polished as any Custodes.

Look at the green-scheme they've been using on the articles and then look at the Imperial Armour books. They're extremely similar, the greens and browns and greys all going onto more or less the same areas. The difference is that the FW painters probably used more matte paints, slightly darker tones and actively utilised weathering technics and possibly products to achieve the more realistic, faded, grimy look to them.

Oils, filters, pigments? Something along those lines I'd wager.

The old Forge World Masterclass books made use of oil filters and pin washes I think? Definitely pigments, at least.

Forge World stopped selling their own range of pigments not too long ago, which does make me wonder if it's why their Horus Heresy schemes have been a lot closer to 'Eavy Metal. Someone up at head office telling them Lil Timmy's confused how they achieved the more realistic look and they can't risk him finding out other companies sell weathering oils, pigments, etc.

TBH, in general, Forgeworld paint schemes is horrible to properly show the actual details of the models they are selling.

The old FW Masterclass books used techniques that were reliant on products GW didn’t sell. Often explicitly stating a product name that wasn’t a GW product.

Everything Forgeworld paints looks the same.

 Galas wrote:
TBH, in general, Forgeworld paint schemes is horrible to properly show the actual details of the models they are selling.

Sometimes that’s true, but not always. DKoK would be one example.

In the end GW has a comical style and FW a more realistic one.

 Esmer wrote:
Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

Imperial German Uniforms 1842 to 1918 This is a non-commercial reference site, and I don't know how accurate it is, although it does have photograph of some uniforms. Some are period photos and so B&W, but some are color, presumably museum pieces or memorabilia. Note that as the Great War went on, the uniform details were simplified, which is in direct contradiction of the 40k ethos which is even the lowest ranking guardman has to be blinged out!
Assuming I do get a hold of the new Kriegers, I was planning on using the Model 1907/10 Feldrock uniform regs. This was the first issue of the now-famous German feldgrau, but they kept the traditional Dunkelblau (dark blue) for dress uniforms. And I'd use Vallejo, since they have a historical line of paints.

I suppose one could paint Kriegers in Dunkelblau: there must be times they do wear dress uniforms, but it would be out of place on the battlefield. If there are field grade and higher Krieg officers released at some point, they can be in parade dress, like the much-hated staff officers and general officers in the Great War, who had comfortable billets safely behind the lines and kept fighting the war like it was still 1870. History shows us how well THAT worked.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Krieg using bright colour like early French army is just as outdated as the Imperial Guard's main tank bring an upgunned British Mark 1, from 1916. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

I actually did a first paint test a while ago with basically that scheme:

Spoiler:

That looks pretty good, Albertorius.

The more pics of the Krieg dudes the more I like them. If they expand the range w/heavy weapons and officers I will be sorely tempted to pick some up.

 Arbitrator wrote:
'Eavy Metal schemes are bright, colourful and neat so that they're easy to standout on the webstore and all the detail is shown off. It's deliberately crisp even when it shouldn't be - look at how clean and tidy the Death Guard on the webstore are except for the tentacles and pustules. Their armour is as proper and polished as any Custodes.

Look at the green-scheme they've been using on the articles and then look at the Imperial Armour books. They're extremely similar, the greens and browns and greys all going onto more or less the same areas. The difference is that the FW painters probably used more matte paints, slightly darker tones and actively utilised weathering technics and possibly pigments to achieve the more realistic, faded, grimy look to them.

Another good comparison is how FW painted the Horus Heresy kits prior to Betrayal at Calth.

This. If you can't understand why this matters, then go look at the official product photography for Conquest by parabellum. simply got awful photos that Phil to do the miniatures justice. having actually seen unpainted conquest meetings in person, I was shocked at how wonderful and detailed the sculpts were, something that the photos just do not effectively communicate in large part because of the attempt at a grittier and more realistic style of painting.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
-Snip-

Not sure if you're trying to troll me or just clueless, but Im just going to say "Damnit they're French" and leave it at that.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
Krieg are one of those regiments were the more they look like their Real Life inspiration and the less like your typical GW studio paint job, the better.

Bleak, black gas mask goggles and mat, paled out greens and blues for the uniform are superior to cartoony bright red goggles and clear-cut, sharp contrasts.

Imperial German Uniforms 1842 to 1918 This is a non-commercial reference site, and I don't know how accurate it is, although it does have photograph of some uniforms. Some are period photos and so B&W, but some are color, presumably museum pieces or memorabilia. Note that as the Great War went on, the uniform details were simplified, which is in direct contradiction of the 40k ethos which is even the lowest ranking guardman has to be blinged out!
Assuming I do get a hold of the new Kriegers, I was planning on using the Model 1907/10 Feldrock uniform regs. This was the first issue of the now-famous German feldgrau, but they kept the traditional Dunkelblau (dark blue) for dress uniforms. And I'd use Vallejo, since they have a historical line of paints.

I suppose one could paint Kriegers in Dunkelblau: there must be times they do wear dress uniforms, but it would be out of place on the battlefield. If there are field grade and higher Krieg officers released at some point, they can be in parade dress, like the much-hated staff officers and general officers in the Great War, who had comfortable billets safely behind the lines and kept fighting the war like it was still 1870. History shows us how well THAT worked.

Uh... In spite of the name, the basic Death Korps infantry uniform is almost entirely French. Take a 1918 poilu, add the neck protector rim from the German stahlhelm, and add a British gas mask hose/bag, and you're pretty much done.

I mean, there's a reason the FW studio schemes have historically been blue, and the GW one is a more colorful and vibrant take on the same basic theme. So if you want to paint Death Korps to match their real world inspiration, look to bleu horizon. It's a great color to do weathering over if you want that grim and gritty look, FWIW.



All that said I'm still considering painting some up in Afrika Korps colors just because I like the idea of tropical Krieg.

I thought Kreigers were not-French and Steel Legion were not-Germans?

From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

From the regiment appearance.
"Spiked helmets are famously worn by the troops of the Death Korps of Krieg; however this is in truth rarely the case in the field, but many Krieg troops maintain the tradition either with improvised spikes or, less commonly, older patterns of the spiked helmet that have survived and been passed down through families."

The pickelhaube is Prussian/Germanic, kepis are French, as are Adrian helmets.

Now when were the DKoK introduced, and in what Forgeworld supplement? What does it say there regarding inspiration? Or is GW claiming this is yet 100% original GW idea with no reference to anything real or fictional?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I thought Kreigers were not-French and Steel Legion were not-Germans?

Yeah, the Krieg uniform is primarily French and the Steel Legion are very similar to WW2-era Fallschirmjaeger. Although the DKoK Engineers track closer to German with their shorter cut of field jacket.

Ancestral Hamster wrote:From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.

IE 'Fun facts a fan just made up wholesale'. There's very little about their uniform that matches WW1 Germans in particular (pretty much just the neck protector on the helmet) and literally nothing about their uniform that comes from Wehrmacht. I've never seen FW content featuring pickelhaubes. Don't take the wikis as gospel.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:


Now when were the DKoK introduced, and in what Forgeworld supplement? What does it say there regarding inspiration? Or is GW claiming this is yet 100% original GW idea with no reference to anything real or fictional?

Not sure about when they showed up in Forgeworld books (I think it's Siege of Vraks), but they're in the 3rd edition codex just as a drawing. Miniatures at that time were Cadians, Catachan, Mordian, Valhallans, and Tallarn (plus Ogryns and Ratlings).

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

From the regiment appearance.
"Spiked helmets are famously worn by the troops of the Death Korps of Krieg; however this is in truth rarely the case in the field, but many Krieg troops maintain the tradition either with improvised spikes or, less commonly, older patterns of the spiked helmet that have survived and been passed down through families."

The pickelhaube is Prussian/Germanic, kepis are French, as are Adrian helmets.

Now when were the DKoK introduced, and in what Forgeworld supplement? What does it say there regarding inspiration? Or is GW claiming this is yet 100% original GW idea with no reference to anything real or fictional?

The wiki entry is not official and is someone guessing poorly. As for where "they are french" comes from its simple comparison if you look up references for ww1 era french uniforms they use several of their uniform components in the death korp, well if you look up ww1 german and ww2 german uniforms there is almost no overlap. No official source from GW needed they wear their influence on their sleeve.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The past couple of days I've been seeing people photoshopping different heads onto the Krieg bodies and honestly they're prime for conversion material.

My favorite is the one that swapped the stahlhelm/adrian bastard child for more of a straight adrian: https://twitter.com/DiceyJune/status/1414700718351536141/photo/1

Which has me thinking that the more adrian/brody hybrid style helmets used by the Crucible Guard in Warmachine might be some good conversion fodder.

The Shock Gendarmerie of Guerre shall rise!

At this point you could just buy Grognards from WGA

If I wanted mediocre Napoleonic guard knockoffs Id just kitbash actual Napoleonic minis.

WGA are mediocre, what are you smoking?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
'Eavy Metal schemes are bright, colourful and neat so that they're easy to standout on the webstore and all the detail is shown off. It's deliberately crisp even when it shouldn't be - look at how clean and tidy the Death Guard on the webstore are except for the tentacles and pustules. Their armour is as proper and polished as any Custodes.

Look at the green-scheme they've been using on the articles and then look at the Imperial Armour books. They're extremely similar, the greens and browns and greys all going onto more or less the same areas. The difference is that the FW painters probably used more matte paints, slightly darker tones and actively utilised weathering technics and possibly pigments to achieve the more realistic, faded, grimy look to them.

Another good comparison is how FW painted the Horus Heresy kits prior to Betrayal at Calth.

This. If you can't understand why this matters, then go look at the official product photography for Conquest by parabellum. simply got awful photos that Phil to do the miniatures justice. having actually seen unpainted conquest meetings in person, I was shocked at how wonderful and detailed the sculpts were, something that the photos just do not effectively communicate in large part because of the attempt at a grittier and more realistic style of painting.

I've gotta say, I completely disagree. On a more realistically painted model I find it easier to figure out the level of detail of the underlying sculpt.

Obviously it just comes down to personal taste, but I can see perfectly well how well detailed the FW DKOK are from the FW paint jobs, and the Conquest models look super detailed in the official product photography I have seen, so I don't know what you're getting at there. They aren't even what I'd describe as gritty and realistic, they simply used less saturated colours, but still used hyper-realistic shading and highlights.

I think you guys have just been overly trained by GW to look at comical miniatures.

If anything I'd go the other way, when GW overdoes the comical style it can completely warp the geometry of a model. Look at so many Ork models that have square muscles... except they don't, GW just decided to edge highlight them as if they do. Or half the beastmen range, that looks far worse in GW's promotional images than they do in person because the GW studio decided to paint the shading in the muscle crevices as if they were panel lines on a Leman Russ battle tank.

So often the GW studio exaggerates details that are subtle in reality, or hides detail that does exist by not exaggerating it as much as other parts of the model.

This is GW so please use proprietary names: Freanch & Germonds

I am going to paint the argued upon bits Basilicanum Grey until the figures are almost black. Rivet counting SciFi variations on historical themes is super lame.

lurch wrote:
The wiki entry is not official and is someone guessing poorly. As for where "they are french" comes from its simple comparison if you look up references for ww1 era french uniforms they use several of their uniform components in the death korp, well if you look up ww1 german and ww2 german uniforms there is almost no overlap. No official source from GW needed they wear their influence on their sleeve.

I've always just seen DKoK as "generic WW1 trench soldier". The greatcoat is modelled off what was most commonly french, the helmet is a bit of a mix with a somewhat unique shape, the name is obviously German.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 JonWebb wrote:
I wonder if the reason it’s 2xcircle or whatever is because it’s going to be like x wing (or dare I say it fallout) where you move front to back along the template not front to front.

Thus 2x 3 is not the same as 6 as you add the width of the base with each incremental move.

It lets you place and pivot the widget as you move and weirdly we find it seems to gel with non wargamers when we demo at shows (but drives some of us vets up the wall at first).

That would still be psychotic, given the design of the template would require you to place it/pick it up three times to move one standard infantry model.

*shrug* There won't be too many models on the table and if the additional rules bring additional context to why then I don't think it will be that much of a burden.

I'm not thrilled by custom measuring tools that still measure inches and a weird system of symbols that replaces an established system of symbols that's been in use for hundreds of years and taught in every school that the designer can assume their customers to have learned from early childhood and used for a decade or more. It inherently adds unnecessary complication. I wouldn't consider mitigating circumstances that make it less of a burden than it could be a good argument in its favor.

That's before you consider that FFG and Modiphius use a controlled and consistently implemented basing system and GW does not. This isn't a system to use with GW's lax miniatures first approach.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
-Snip-

Not sure if you're trying to troll me or just clueless, but Im just going to say "Damnit they're French" and leave it at that.

Technically what you should say is "damnit, they're human space soldiers from forty thousand years in the future and you can paint them however you like".

 osjclatchford wrote:
You know I've just realised that the gaunts ghosts models were probably designed with this game system in mind... Just saying...

By Jove! I like that train of thought.

Next bring on The Last Chancers!

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

Except that's wrong because the DKoK overcoat is clearly based on what the French wore and the helmet is a modified Adrian.
The only thing German about them is the name and the grenades.
The gas mask is supposed to be British too. There's a lot of WW1 in there, but it's mostly French.

I don't mean to be come across as attacking your source (I also use the 40k wiki at times), but I doubt the editors are that well versed in history.

Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

Love it, total trainwreck.

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Crucially, critical hits can only be blocked by one critical save or two standard saves.

Critical Hit Rules, as the name implies, are only applied to critical successes. The long-las’ MW3 (short for Mortal Wounds 3) rule, for instance, inflicts three automatic wounds for every critical hit rolled before the unfortunate target has any chance to prevent them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

Except that's wrong because the DKoK overcoat is clearly based on what the French wore and the helmet is a modified Adrian.
The only thing German about them is the name and the grenades.
The gas mask is supposed to be British too. There's a lot of WW1 in there, but it's mostly French.

I don't mean to be come across as attacking your source (I also use the 40k wiki at times), but I doubt the editors are that well versed in history.

I don't really agree that the helmet is a modified Adrian, I think that's maybe where people get the idea of "german", as it's more similar in shape to that, but with a spine on the top. Though TBH I don't recognise the DKOK as anything from history, it has that slightly rectangular profile. Doesn't mean it's not historically inspired, it's just nothing has jumped out at me as being clearly what they used as a basis for DKOK helmets.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

Cuneiform is the only true language for wargaming

Not Online!!! wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

"So my unit has a range of 2 circles and a square."

"Couldn't you just say 7 inches?"

"NO. TWO CIRCLES. AND A SQUARE."

I wonder if the person in charge of making this stupid crap at GW is mentally unwell to some degree.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

"So my unit has a range of 2 circles and a square."

"Couldn't you just say 7 inches?"

"NO. TWO CIRCLES. AND A SQUARE."

I wonder if the person in charge of making this stupid crap at GW is mentally unwell to some degree.

Maybee he had a bad trip and constantly got confronted with the anarcho primitivist memes`?
Or maybee he had a bad tripp and was confronted with their toddlers toys?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

It would be a bit easier to pick this up if there was better logic behind the choice of shapes.

Like:
6-sided hexagon for 6"
3-sided triangle for 3"
1-sided circle for 1"

Instead the system seems arbitrary and forces you to refer to the plastic templates.

WHY does it need to be shapes in the first place? Why can't it just be inches???

Author had a stroke while writing the rules. Just look at the uncancellable wounds inflicted by a completely cancellable critical hit.

I find it bizarre they want to use the symbols on the widget for stuff like range. Are inches not good enough?

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."

From the regiment appearance.
"Spiked helmets are famously worn by the troops of the Death Korps of Krieg; however this is in truth rarely the case in the field, but many Krieg troops maintain the tradition either with improvised spikes or, less commonly, older patterns of the spiked helmet that have survived and been passed down through families."

You're quoting 40k fandom wiki, trash site that mixes fanon with badly remembered fluff because they don't require sources. You can add sentence stating Kriegers wear pink uniforms with My Little Pony butt symbols and it will stay there for months

Lexicanum, as bad as it is, at least requires actually quoting sources to edit stuff most of the time. Use it instead.

Also, please show ONE non-fan Krieg model (or even art) with pickelhaube. I am strangely sure you won't find any.

There are more AdMech models with Pickelhaubes than Krieger models with Pickelhaubes.

And funnily enough, Kriegers also wear straight-up French Dragoon Helmets.

Other boardgames use widgets and abstractions, so GW wanted to jump in on the trend. They just didn't get why they use them. It's cargo-cult school of game design.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really agree that the helmet is a modified Adrian, I think that's maybe where people get the idea of "german", as it's more similar in shape to that, but with a spine on the top. Though TBH I don't recognise the DKOK as anything from history, it has that slightly rectangular profile. Doesn't mean it's not historically inspired, it's just nothing has jumped out at me as being clearly what they used as a basis for DKOK helmets.

The crests on Krieg officer helmets are clearly based on WWI French dragoon and cuirassier helmets. To me, the regular Krieg helmet looks like a modified WWI German stahlhelm (with rectangular profile, as you said) with a flat spine on top, rather than the rounded one on the Adrian.

 Witchfinder General wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really agree that the helmet is a modified Adrian, I think that's maybe where people get the idea of "german", as it's more similar in shape to that, but with a spine on the top. Though TBH I don't recognise the DKOK as anything from history, it has that slightly rectangular profile. Doesn't mean it's not historically inspired, it's just nothing has jumped out at me as being clearly what they used as a basis for DKOK helmets.

The crests on Krieg officer helmets are clearly based on WWI French dragoon and cuirassier helmets. To me, the regular Krieg helmet looks like a modified WWI German stahlhelm (with rectangular profile, as you said) with a flat spine on top, rather than the rounded one on the Adrian.

Spoiler:

I see it more as a cross between the Stahlhelm and the Adrian. It has the profile of a Stahlhelm but the crest of an Adrian. Design wise it works pretty well; it looks unique and yet you can see the historical influence, which also complements the french-style overcoat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Cuneiform is the only true language for wargaming

Back in my day we used smoke signals.

The move to symbols and such is mostly for cost cutting. By using universal symbols on cards you dont have to translate and print rules for multiple languages beyond the rulebook.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 osjclatchford wrote:
You know I've just realised that the gaunts ghosts models were probably designed with this game system in mind... Just saying...

By Jove! I like that train of thought.

Next bring on The Last Chancers!

Cain, Vail, and the 597th!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

"So my unit has a range of 2 circles and a square."

"Couldn't you just say 7 inches?"

"NO. TWO CIRCLES. AND A SQUARE."

I wonder if the person in charge of making this stupid crap at GW is mentally unwell to some degree.

2 circles and a square?

Don't you mean circle circles and triangle square?

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
The move to symbols and such is mostly for cost cutting. By using universal symbols on cards you dont have to translate and print rules for multiple languages beyond the rulebook.

Cool, but what does that have to do with GW? The rest of the unit card uses Roman letters and Arabic numerals to simulate something that could be mistaken for English without any issues. It's only ranges that use occult symbols.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
The move to symbols and such is mostly for cost cutting. By using universal symbols on cards you dont have to translate and print rules for multiple languages beyond the rulebook.

How many languages do GW print in that don't know and understand Arabic numbers, but still understand a Latin alphabet?

I'm going to hazard a guess and say "none", I think it'd be more likely the other way around (understand Arabic numbers but don't understand a Latin alphabet).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
I find it bizarre they want to use the symbols on the widget for stuff like range. Are inches not good enough?

I'm just trying to picture the meeting where they decided this was a good idea.

Genius 1: "I have a brilliant idea! Lets represent one with a triangle, two with a circle, three with a square and six with a pentagon"
Genius 2: "That's a great idea!"
Pleb: "Err, don't we already have symbols for one, two, three and six"
*draws out, 1, 2, 3 and 6*
Genius 3: "What are you talking about, that's crazy talk! You're fired! You have circle pentagon minutes to clear out your desk!"

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

"So my unit has a range of 2 circles and a square."

"Couldn't you just say 7 inches?"

"NO. TWO CIRCLES. AND A SQUARE."

I wonder if the person in charge of making this stupid crap at GW is mentally unwell to some degree.

I wonder if someone wanted inches, someone else wanted metric, and it got so bitter that neither side won and we ended up with shapes just to move along the development progress.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really agree that the helmet is a modified Adrian, I think that's maybe where people get the idea of "german", as it's more similar in shape to that, but with a spine on the top. Though TBH I don't recognise the DKOK as anything from history, it has that slightly rectangular profile. Doesn't mean it's not historically inspired, it's just nothing has jumped out at me as being clearly what they used as a basis for DKOK helmets.

The crests on Krieg officer helmets are clearly based on WWI French dragoon and cuirassier helmets. To me, the regular Krieg helmet looks like a modified WWI German stahlhelm (with rectangular profile, as you said) with a flat spine on top, rather than the rounded one on the Adrian.

Spoiler:

I see it more as a cross between the Stahlhelm and the Adrian. It has the profile of a Stahlhelm but the crest of an Adrian. Design wise it works pretty well; it looks unique and yet you can see the historical influence, which also complements the french-style overcoat.

Maybe, the Adrian's spine is riveted on, while the DKOK one looks like it was pressed / moulded in for added stiffness, which makes them look quite different to my eye.

But yeah, I think DKOK are best described as "amalgamation of WW1 soldiers in trenches".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't really agree that the helmet is a modified Adrian, I think that's maybe where people get the idea of "german", as it's more similar in shape to that, but with a spine on the top. Though TBH I don't recognise the DKOK as anything from history, it has that slightly rectangular profile. Doesn't mean it's not historically inspired, it's just nothing has jumped out at me as being clearly what they used as a basis for DKOK helmets.

The crests on Krieg officer helmets are clearly based on WWI French dragoon and cuirassier helmets. To me, the regular Krieg helmet looks like a modified WWI German stahlhelm (with rectangular profile, as you said) with a flat spine on top, rather than the rounded one on the Adrian.

Spoiler:

I see it more as a cross between the Stahlhelm and the Adrian. It has the profile of a Stahlhelm but the crest of an Adrian. Design wise it works pretty well; it looks unique and yet you can see the historical influence, which also complements the french-style overcoat.

Maybe, the Adrian's spine is riveted on, while the DKOK one looks like it was pressed / moulded in for added stiffness, which makes them look quite different to my eye.

But yeah, I think DKOK are best described as "amalgamation of WW1 soldiers in trenches".

That's fair, I can see the influence but I understand if others don't.
They are indeed WW1 trench soldiers in space.

Four circles, Jeremy? Four? That's insane.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
From the trivia section of this Death Korps of Krieg entry.
"As with many Imperial Guard regiments, the Death Korps is based in part upon real-world militaries from Human history, similar in uniform, appearance and style to the Imperial German Army of World War I and the Wehrmacht of World War II."
From the regiment appearance.

Your mistake was referencing a fan-wiki thats notorious for incorrect and conjectural information. There are entire pages discussing events that occur in M42 based on interpretations of timeline, despite the fact that the official stance of the design studio and black library is that we are still in M41 (but I digress). You will note there is no citation for the claim you referenced - thats because it doesn't come from any form of authority, its just some wiki editors opinion.

Here are some facts:

1. the Germans did not wear a double-breasted greatcoat that could be pinned open the way DKoK greatcoats can during WW1 or WW2 (and in fact in WW1 most German military issued greatcoats were single-breasted - only some senior officers in WW1 had double-breasted greatcoats but an entirely different button-pattern, and the double-breasted greatcoats issued by Germany in WW2 had an entirely different style of collar/lapel). The French, on the other hand, did in both wars, the cut of which is virtually identical to the DKoK.

2. Likewise, the French issues puttees as a part of the standard uniform in WW1 and WW2. The Germans only issued puttees later on in WW1 when they encountered leather shortages, otherwise the uniform standard was long leather boots, same basically can be said of world war 2 (the Germans actually went out of their way to manufacture spats and gaiters to avoid issuing puttees).

3. And then the gasmasks - the Germans used canister gas masks in both world wars, they never issued one with a hose going to a respirator box like the DKoK use. For that matter, neither did the French - thats an English thing (though there were French units issued British gasmasks due to material/supply shortages.

4. And the helmet. Its not a stahlhelm. It looks similar to one because it cuts down low around the ears and the back of the head, but stahlhelms flared outwards a lot more than the DKoK helmets do, which are otherwise tighter to the head, more similar to a modern day ballistic helmet. The raised ridge on top looks a lot like an evolution of the French Adrian helmet in silhouette. No matter what, its not German.

SO - the DKOK have French coats, french pants/legwear (the boots are generic), their harnesses and webbing look French enough (though actually look a bit more like some of the kit the Belgians wore), their gasmasks are english and their helmets are a mishmash of stuff.

Wheres the inspiration from Germany?

It also bears mentioning that DKoK officers wear helmets that look like French Dragoon helmets. Germany (and Austria-Hungary) wore similar helmets in the 19th century, though the style and proportion was different from that used by the DKoK, but they abandoned those helmets for Pickelhabue and other designs decades prior to the first world war. France - and only France - was still wearing that style of helmet in the field when the war started.

"Spiked helmets are famously worn by the troops of the Death Korps of Krieg; however this is in truth rarely the case in the field, but many Krieg troops maintain the tradition either with improvised spikes or, less commonly, older patterns of the spiked helmet that have survived and been passed down through families."

The pickelhaube is Prussian/Germanic, kepis are French, as are Adrian helmets.

Again, an uncited claim.

Now when were the DKoK introduced, and in what Forgeworld supplement? What does it say there regarding inspiration? Or is GW claiming this is yet 100% original GW idea with no reference to anything real or fictional?

Not in Forgeworld, actually a bit older IIRC the Armageddon campaign. In those days they were Armageddon Steel Legion minis in a different paint scheme. They reappeared later in a different paint scheme with the addition of a pickelhaube spike glued on top of them. They reappeared in the 3rd Edition Imperial Guard codex in the form of 2D lineart in a more distinct appearance that more resembles their modern day incarnation instead of Armageddon Steel Legion - chief difference being a longer full-length coat (single-breasted, does not pin-up) instead of the knee-length coats worn by ASL. The pickelhaube spike is present, but reduced in size, their helmets still appear to have been ASL style fallschirmjager helmets. Their first appearance from Forgeworld was Imperial Armour Volume V - at this point they went full french trading in their single-breasted coats for double breasted ones pinned up in the style of French Poilus, the helmet spike was gone, replaced by the adrian style bulge, the helmet itself changed from its previous incarnation and various other minor alterations made to their appearance. Theres no note about inspiration there - there almost never is for any of the regiments except where its extremely obvious :coughraetorians:cough:

All that crap on the wiki about Prussian gak and pickelhaube spikes is fan attempts to retcon the evolution of the DKoKs appearance over the years so that it all makes sense within the context of the setting instead of having to "overwrite" stuff. I.E. rather than assuming that their present appearance is how they always looked, they assume that the previous Aramgeddon-based look (which is more WW2 German inspired) and the lineart in the old codex with the Pickelhaube, etc. are also their canon appearance, just alternate uniforms worn in different theaters or whatever.

As an aside - thats also where DKoK got their name from, because Aramgeddon Steel Legion were modeled after WW2 Germans (specifically the Fallschirmjager), they played into that by having a variant uniform with a more Germanic name (because at the time *all* guard regiments were standardized kit worn by more than one worlds worth of guardsmen, so there were alternate schemes for Valhallans, Armageddon Steel Legion, Mordians, etc. to represent the other worlds that were equipped with the same kit). For whatever reason (presumably they captured someones attention) the name was carried forward with a sligthly different appearance into the IG codex to represent one of the "regiments of renown" or whatever. From there, it went over to Forgeworld, which in those days was run by really big guard fans who had a goal of creating minis for all of the alternative IG regiments that didn't have plastic/metal minis from GW. They did Elysians in IA3/4 (and also some Tallarn support minis in IA3), and DKoK in IA5/6/7. For whatever reason when they did DKoK they deviated more dramatically from their previous appearance compared to Elysians and Tallarn, etc. - big picture they were still the same (helmet, gas mask, long coat), but in terms of detail they tossed out all the Germanic stuff and replaced it with French.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

WGA are mediocre, what are you smoking?

They took Napoleonic French Old Guard, slapped a lasergun and a rebreather mask on them, and came up with some fluff about how some aliens zapped them across time and space to war world to partake in gladiatorial combat for entertainment to justify it. Not my thing, very low effort, can achieve the same thing kitbashing other plastic kits and resin bits that are already out there, didn't need someone to make a bespoke kit to get basically the same results. Theres a region my favorite Guard regiment are Vostroyans - because they're actually Grimdark and don't have any single obvious real world inspiration (unlike basically all the other regiments out there).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Obviously it just comes down to personal taste, but I can see perfectly well how well detailed the FW DKOK are from the FW paint jobs, and the Conquest models look super detailed in the official product photography I have seen, so I don't know what you're getting at there. They aren't even what I'd describe as gritty and realistic, they simply used less saturated colours, but still used hyper-realistic shading and highlights.

Counterpoint:

As a result of the style in which its painted you can't really make out a lot of the fine texture details on the sculpts, its difficult to tell how shes being posed or where one part of her starts and the other ends, etc. The face is lost in the rest of the model, the headdress is indistinct, etc.

If you look at that and tell me "It looks fine, I know exactly whats going on", you're a liar.

 Geifer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 JonWebb wrote:
I wonder if the reason it’s 2xcircle or whatever is because it’s going to be like x wing (or dare I say it fallout) where you move front to back along the template not front to front.
Thus 2x 3 is not the same as 6 as you add the width of the base with each incremental move.
It lets you place and pivot the widget as you move and weirdly we find it seems to gel with non wargamers when we demo at shows (but drives some of us vets up the wall at first).

That would still be psychotic, given the design of the template would require you to place it/pick it up three times to move one standard infantry model.

*shrug* There won't be too many models on the table and if the additional rules bring additional context to why then I don't think it will be that much of a burden.

I'm not thrilled by custom measuring tools that still measure inches and a weird system of symbols that replaces an established system of symbols that's been in use for hundreds of years and taught in every school that the designer can assume their customers to have learned from early childhood and used for a decade or more. It inherently adds unnecessary complication. I wouldn't consider mitigating circumstances that make it less of a burden than it could be a good argument in its favor.

Protestations of psychosis aside (silly accusation, if you're moving your model in 3 segments I would assume there is a reason for it, either because you can perform an action at each step of the movement or because you check for line of sight for the purposes of reactive opportunity fire or something), theres a few reasons I can think of why they did it this way.

The most obvious is that if they were doing "segmented" movement as discussed previously, then writing 3(2") is poor UX/UI design and can easily be confused by someone who isn't paying attention, and can very easily become 2(3") as a result. It can also be difficult to read upside-down from across the table if you're trying to check an opponents stats for quick reference. By separating it into number + symbol instead of number + number you ensure the two datapoints being referenced remain distinct and unmistakable.

It also seems that the symbol is being used to tie into a damage-based stat modification system, though I'm not sure how it functions. It seems to be something along the lines of if you take damage then drop your movement to the next symbol down. I can also imagine that the symbol themselves are a separate stat in and of themselves and not just a simple numeric distance, i.e. there are rules that interact with models differently based on the symbol, for exmple a terrain feature might be impassable to a model with a (Circle) but not a model with a (Square) kind of thing, or a model with a (triangle) might move at half speed through the feature, or reduce the number of move segments by 1 or whatever.

If thats the case, then however inconvenient some might find it that they replaced a number with a symbol, the reason for it is that the symbol is a lot more than just a number. While you *could* design it in a way where the two weren't linked (which might allow for greater design flexibility), that would then require players to memorize/learn an additional stat or rule to do so, which adds additional discrete steps of information that need to be learned and processed, etc.

Also, most complaints about "now i have the additional complexity and overhead of translating symbols to numbers" is basically moot. The movement tools are marked with the symbols, you don't need to know that (Circle) is 2", because you aren't moving 2" - you're moving (Circle). For whatever reason it doesn't really seem like GW wants you to play the game using a measuring tape (no clue why that might be, won't begin to guess at it) and they want you to think of distances only in the context of their pre-defined segments. Being a veteran of X-Wing, Armada, and Legion I can say there is nothing to worry about here, I have successfully played those games for years without any idea of what their "real world" measurements are, because simply put I don't need to. That being said, I am under the impression that the lengths in those games are "arbitrary" (i.e. they aren't exact whole inches, but rather something like 3.325" or something) and what I would call non-incremental (i.e. the distances aren't 1", 2", and 3"). I don't know that it entirely makes sense to go the route GW did using those distances, I have to imagine that 1", 2", 3", and 6" are simple enough to keep track of that there was no need to attempt to streamline them into symbols.

That's before you consider that FFG and Modiphius use a controlled and consistently implemented basing system and GW does not. This isn't a system to use with GW's lax miniatures first approach.

Preach.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

No, but its easier to get thrown off by it if its written out as RNG 6", Torrent 2"

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

Arabic numerals are TOO MODERN, we must go back to monkee and only use geometric forms to determine things. Indeed we should completly remove the alphabet either and replace it with symbols to make our meaning understood.

"So my unit has a range of 2 circles and a square."
"Couldn't you just say 7 inches?"
"NO. TWO CIRCLES. AND A SQUARE."
I wonder if the person in charge of making this stupid crap at GW is mentally unwell to some degree.

I know you're being facetious, but I don't know if this scenario will ever present itself based on how it seems to be implemented. It doesn't seem that ranges are additive based on what has been revealed so far. I.E. 3(Circle) doesn't necessarily translate to 6" and we have yet to see anything that measures range as (Square)+(Circle) or similar. The closest we got was RNG X, Torrent Y, but thats measure X from your model to the target, and then do this additional thing to any models withing Y range of the target - but that doesn't work out to X+Y.

 xttz wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Witchfinder General wrote:
Ranged combat preview is up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/15/lasguns-can-kill-from-across-the-board-in-new-kill-teams-deadly-firefights/

A rng of pexagon and torrent of circle... yeah, that's totally simpler than using Arabic numerals

It would be a bit easier to pick this up if there was better logic behind the choice of shapes.
Like:
6-sided hexagon for 6"
3-sided triangle for 3"
1-sided circle for 1"
Instead the system seems arbitrary and forces you to refer to the plastic templates.

100%, but I'm guessing they went out of their way to try to make it harder for people to measure distances in inches in order to enforce the usage of the tool. In that case though I can't imagine why they would even bother printing the distances in inches in the rules - psychologically that gives players the impression that the distances in inches actually matter, and I suspect is what is causing so much frustration for everyone. if they just said "you measure distances using this tool based on the shapes indicated in the rules" I think there probably would have been a lot less pushback.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
WHY does it need to be shapes in the first place? Why can't it just be inches???

Quicker to play and easier to handle using pre-set tools then a tape measure. Quicker reference, more streamlined UX/UI, etc. Theres lots of valid reasons for it. The Star Wars games, ASOIF, etc. would not be nearly as successful as they have been using tape measures for play.

Theres also probably an element of localization involved (not everywhere uses arabic numerals, thus you would have to produce different plastic movement tools for different markets).

Cronch wrote:
Other boardgames use widgets and abstractions, so GW wanted to jump in on the trend. They just didn't get why they use them. It's cargo-cult school of game design.

You might be on to something here. Being widely versed and playd in board games theres nothing odd or threatening or uncomfortable to me about the use of symbols here in place of numbers (whereas there is something very odd to me about the community backlash against them). What is odd to me is really the "Why" in terms of their use in the design - I can think of a lot of reasons for why if *I* was designing the game (see my previous comments), but I'm not sure that GW went that far in designing the game. Like, my concept for the segmented movement with reactive fire - I just can't see GW doing something like that. Corvus Belli? Sure. But it would be a huge departure from GWs established design paradigms. SO I really do think that some exec at GW was like "we need to keep up with the trends in the industry and improve the UX/UI of our games, get rid of tape measures and use a movement tool with pre-defined distances instead, and get rid of all the inch-based measurements, use symbols or something to refer to them instead". Knowing that GWs design staff has a lot of old grogs and is apparently fairly limited and insular in terms of the games they play, I can imagine implementation was reluctant and they didn't necessarily have a lot of hands-on experience with the games that utilize these tools, and thus wouldn't have necessarily understood how to maximize their potential and utilize them effectively.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Author had a stroke while writing the rules. Just look at the uncancellable wounds inflicted by a completely cancellable critical hit.

Errr... Critical hits can be cancelled, but Mortal Wounds cause automatic wounds as a result of a critical hit *before* your opponent can cancel the hits. Makes 100% perfect sense, no stroke involved. Not really sure why people are having a hard time with this.