Just so I have this right.....

On a SM bike you can shoot mounted weapons either 2 shots 12" or 1 shot the maximum distance no matter your movement.

You can assault after firing a rapid fire wepon.

A plasma gun may fire as if it were a standard rapid fire wepon with all normal restrictions applying... 1 shot at max distance if no movement and always 2 shots no matter the movement.

Thanks,

ender502

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/12/2007 12:45 AM
If you give a biker a plasma gun, it won't be a mounted weapon (unless specified)- he'll be carrying it himself. I could see one arguing by RAW that he would not be able to assault if he fired that plasma gun nor could he shoot 24" if he moved, though it seems like a very not-well-covered scenario...

Additionally:
Can bikers double-tap their pistols they carry themselves if they move? If they can, can they still assault? If they can't, and they stay still and double-tap their pistols, can they assault?

Uh.. the RAW say the biker CAN move, fire a heavy or rapid fire weapon AND assault. There can be no disagreement in that point.

Ijust wanted to make sure there was no dsiagreement as to a marines ability (or lack thereof) to fire a non-mounted plasma gun after moving.

As for pistols, no they wouldn't be able to assault. The special rules that allows bikes to fire only applies to rapid fire and heavy weapons, NOT pistols.

ender502

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 7:46 AM
As long as you count as stationary for rapid fire weapons or can more and fire heavy weapons, you can assault after firing. Doesn't matter what you are firing.

Bikes can move and fire heavies, so they can assault after firing a pistol twice.

While it makes sense that they would be able to do so, nothing in the rules indicates that this is possible. The "Count as Stationary" bit in the assault rules only allows charges for Rapid Fire and Heavy Weapons. It does NOT supercede the prohibition on charging after double-tapping a pistol.

I don't know where youare getting this "counts as stationary" nonsense. That is NOT in the rules. You are making it up.

What is in the rules is that bikes may fire a number of weapons equal to the number of riders on the bike. So, an attack bike can fire 2 weapons and a regular SM bike can fire 1 weapon.

Anyone who says different is either lying or deeply mistaken. The rules are crystal clear.

ender502

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 8:42 AM
Sure it does. As long as you meet one of those criteria, you can assault after firing. What you are firing is not specified, thus is a general statement and applies to any firing. (Heck, even indirect ordnance). It is not stated that the firing is only for the sort of weapon you have special firing ability for.

This is from page 36 of the BGB, and double-tapping pistols is noted in that section also.

Well, you got the page right, at least..........

"An infantry unit that fired twice with pistols or which shot with rapid fire weapons or remained stationary to fire heavy weapons may not charge at all in the Assault phase.

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

Notice there are three types of shooting that prohibit assaulting. Now notice that the Counts as Stationary bit supercedes the rules for only two of those, ie rapid fire and heavy, but says nothing about pistols. Soooooo...... It works for Rapid Fire and Heavy but not for pistols. Falls into the category of "It doesn't say you can, so you cannot."

Personally, I agree. They should be able to assault, but I can't prove that they are able to assault under the rules.

Posted By ender502 on 08/12/2007 12:33 PM

I don't know where youare getting this "counts as stationary" nonsense. That is NOT in the rules. You are making it up.

What is in the rules is that bikes may fire a number of weapons equal to the number of riders on the bike. So, an attack bike can fire 2 weapons and a regular SM bike can fire 1 weapon.

Anyone who says different is either lying or deeply mistaken. The rules are crystal clear.

ender502

Posted By don_mondo on 08/12/2007 1:53 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 8:42 AM
Sure it does. As long as you meet one of those criteria, you can assault after firing. What you are firing is not specified, thus is a general statement and applies to any firing. (Heck, even indirect ordnance). It is not stated that the firing is only for the sort of weapon you have special firing ability for.

This is from page 36 of the BGB, and double-tapping pistols is noted in that section also.

Well, you got the page right, at least..........

"An infantry unit that fired twice with pistols or which shot with rapid fire weapons or remained stationary to fire heavy weapons may not charge at all in the Assault phase.

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

Notice there are three types of shooting that prohibit assaulting. Now notice that the Counts as Stationary bit supercedes the rules for only two of those, ie rapid fire and heavy, but says nothing about pistols. Soooooo...... It works for Rapid Fire and Heavy but not for pistols. Falls into the category of "It doesn't say you can, so you cannot."

Posted By don_mondo on 08/12/2007 1:54 PM

Try looking at page 36, Shooting and Assaulting, that's where you'll find the "Counts as Stationary" nonsense...................

Please look at p. 53. No where does it say that bikes count as stationary. So, in the context of "bikes" all this "counts as stationary" is nonsense. That rule does NOT apply to bikes.

ender502

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 4:24 PM

Actually, it does say you can.  It says that they can assault after firing.  It doesn't specify WHAT they are firing.  That is a general blanket permission.  You are adding things to the rule that isn't there.

Actually, it does not say "they can assault after firing." You may want to read the entire sentence. What the rules says is

" In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

The sentence is clearly dealing with Rapid fire and heavy weapons. It does not say pistols. It does not say "they can assault after firing."

You are incorrect. It happens. No big deal.

ender502

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 7:11 PM
No, the sentence is dealing with models that count as stationary for RF weapons or move and fire heavy weapons.

Those models can assault after firing. Full stop. Doesn't matter what weapons those units actually fired.

And I wasn't going by the bike rules. Other than the bike rules says that they can move and fire heavy weapons, so thus fit the profile of a unit that can assault after firing.

Please point to somewhere in the BBB that says bikes count as stationary. Give me page number. You can't because there isn't one. Bikes do not count as stationary.

Again, please point to a page number. I am kinda thinking you wont.

ender502

Posted By onlainari on 08/12/2007 10:09 PM
Bikes can move and fire heavy weapons.

Therefore bikes can ALWAYS assault after firing.

It does not say bikes can assault after firing a heavy weapon.

It says they can assault after firing (anything).

Yes, bikes can move AND fire a heavy weapon. Please show me the rule where it says "Therefore bikes can always assault after firing." There is no such rule. That is your own inference that is in no way supported by the rules. And a poor inference it is.

But, just to be nice, I will re-type the quote that you seem so afraid to refer to....

"In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

Please explain to me how the above quote (BBB p.53) leads you to believe bike scan ALWAYS assault. The rule does NOT mention pistols. If the rule does not mention pistols then it doesn't include pistols. If you want to add pistols... fine. Go ahead. But you are not following the rules.

As to your second statement "It says they can assault after firing." Please see the bolded quote. You are wrong.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 08/12/2007 11:01 PM

It does not say bikes can assault after firing a heavy weapon.

It says they can assault after firing (anything).

Yes, bikes can move AND fire a heavy weapon. Please show me the rule where it says "Therefore bikes can always assault after firing." There is no such rule. That is your own inference that is in no way supported by the rules. And a poor inference it is.

Quote From BGB Page 36

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 4:24 PM

Posted By don_mondo on 08/12/2007 1:53 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/12/2007 8:42 AM
Sure it does. As long as you meet one of those criteria, you can assault after firing. What you are firing is not specified, thus is a general statement and applies to any firing. (Heck, even indirect ordnance). It is not stated that the firing is only for the sort of weapon you have special firing ability for.

This is from page 36 of the BGB, and double-tapping pistols is noted in that section also.

Well, you got the page right, at least..........

"An infantry unit that fired twice with pistols or which shot with rapid fire weapons or remained stationary to fire heavy weapons may not charge at all in the Assault phase.

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

Notice there are three types of shooting that prohibit assaulting. Now notice that the Counts as Stationary bit supercedes the rules for only two of those, ie rapid fire and heavy, but says nothing about pistols. Soooooo...... It works for Rapid Fire and Heavy but not for pistols. Falls into the category of "It doesn't say you can, so you cannot."

Actually, it does say you can.  It says that they can assault after firing.  It doesn't specify WHAT they are firing.  That is a general blanket permission.  You are adding things to the rule that isn't there.

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 1:33 AM

Quote From BGB Page 36

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

Pwnd.
Also note that I have 1 more post than you.

Oh dear lord. I am flabbergasted.

You have quoted the "counts as  sationary" rule. Congratulations. Please now show, with a quote and page number, how this in any way refres to bikes.

ender502

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 6:38 AM
Bikes can move and fire heavy weapons. Units that can move and fire heavy weapons can charge after firing.

Really now you're being stupid. It says it right there.

Yes, bikes can move and fire heavy weapons. Yes, bikes can assault after firing heavy weapons.  The same goes for rapid fire weapons. There is no question about that. Never has been. What they cannot do is charge after firing a pistol twice. That is not included in their rule.

That is the issue at hand. Bikes cannot charge after firing ANYTHING. They can charge after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons as an exception to the normal rules.

Also, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that bikes "count as stationary." They do not. Nowhere in the rules does it say they count as stationary. That is something you made up. Again, please quote a page in the BBB that says bikes count as stationary. i notice you didn't do it in your last post.

ender502

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 7:41 AM

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

ender502, I think you need to look at it this way:

According to that rule book quote, if a model can:

A) Count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons
>>>or<<<
B) Can move and fire heavy weapons
>>>then<<<
C) It can charge after firing. Note here it doesn't say "after firing rapid fire weapons," or "after firing heavy weapons"- it just says "after firing."

Now this obviously feels like rules lawyering, but according to that quote and it's direct lawyer-like interpretation, bikes can assault after firing anything (including pistols!) because they satisfy requirement B.

:-|

Actually, what the rule says is:

" In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

No "after firing" is involved with bikes. You are assuming the "counts as stationary" applies to bikes. Please quote a rule that says bikes "count as stationary."

This is the same question I have asked 3 posts in a row and no one has been able to provide the quote. If you can provide the quote that says bikes count as stationary then I will gladly admit you are right. If you can't you must admit you are merely making an inference and your posistion is not supported by the rules.

ender502

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 7:41 AM

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

ender502, I think you need to look at it this way:

According to that rule book quote, if a model can:

A) Count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons
>>>or<<<
B) Can move and fire heavy weapons
>>>then<<<
C) It can charge after firing. Note here it doesn't say "after firing rapid fire weapons," or "after firing heavy weapons"- it just says "after firing."

Now this obviously feels like rules lawyering, but according to that quote and it's direct lawyer-like interpretation, bikes can assault after firing anything (including pistols!) because they satisfy requirement B.

:-|

After three pages, the basic question people are missing that everytime Ender points out and no-one seems to answer is "does a pistol count as a heavy weapon or a rapid fire weapon".

The sentence is pretty clear count as stationary for firing a heavy weapon or a rapid fire weapon.

If you fire either you can assault.

The sentences are not independent as people try to point out. Why does everyone miss the word "such" in the sentence they are quoting?

"Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

It may not be intent but please, even by simple RAW standards it is saying if a unit can do action A or B then SUCH units can do action C. So, does a pistol fall into action A or B?