Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 8:08 AM
No. I have the rule book right here on my lap now.

Page 36, right after the first paragraph under "SHOOTING AND ASSAULTING":
"Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

What you just quoted there in bold, well, I'm sorry to break this to you, but that and the quote above this very sentence are not the same. Please stop jumping to conclusions, assumptions, and letting your opinions sway your decisions. Try to view this directly and openly. Rules lawyering the RAW is annoying, yes, but that's how the ball rolls.

You are correct. They are NOT the same and that is the point. One applies to bikes and the other does not. My quote is from the bikes entry. Yours is not.

Again, show me somewhere in the BBB that says your quote applies to bikes. I have requested multiple times and you are incapable of doing it.

This is nota question of opinion. This is a clear question of the rules saying what you are allowed to do. No where do the bike rules say they can assault after firing. Nor does it say that bikes count as stationary. Nor in your own quote doe sit say what units count as stationary.

Your arguement is not supported by the rules and your inability to provide a quote connecting bikes and one of those rare units is evidence of it.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 08/13/2007 8:24 AM

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 8:08 AM
No. I have the rule book right here on my lap now.

Page 36, right after the first paragraph under "SHOOTING AND ASSAULTING":
"Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

What you just quoted there in bold, well, I'm sorry to break this to you, but that and the quote above this very sentence are not the same. Please stop jumping to conclusions, assumptions, and letting your opinions sway your decisions. Try to view this directly and openly. Rules lawyering the RAW is annoying, yes, but that's how the ball rolls.

You are correct. They are NOT the same and that is the point. One applies to bikes and the other does not. My quote is from the bikes entry. Yours is not.

Again, show me somewhere in the BBB that says your quote applies to bikes. I have requested multiple times and you are incapable of doing it.

This is nota question of opinion. This is a clear question of the rules saying what you are allowed to do. No where do the bike rules say they can assault after firing. Nor does it say that bikes count as stationary. Nor in your own quote doe sit say what units count as stationary.

Your arguement is not supported by the rules and your inability to provide a quote connecting bikes and one of those rare units is evidence of it.

ender502

If memory serves me correctly, in 3rd Ed somewhere (may have been the SM codex) it said something along the lines about the bike being a stable platform for the bolters on the front and could therefore rapid fire if moved - that rule is now superflous. Did not count as stationary but just for the bolters on the front.

Having reread - nowhere in the book or SM codex does it say bikes count as stationary.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 8:41 AM
This is not about the word "such", this is about the words "after firing". It does not say "after firing heavy weapons" nor "after firing rapid fire weapons". Why can't you see that to assume it is respective of such is to interpret the rules your own way rather than directly?

originally posted by ender502
Again, show me somewhere in the BBB that says your quote applies to bikes. I have requested multiple times and you are incapable of doing it.

Okay, big guy, here ya go:

BBB, Page 27
"you"

BBB, Page 38
"are"

BBB, Page 76
"incorrect"

BBB, Page 209
"."

<3

I understand that you can't connect the quote to bikes. Your childish response just cements the fact. But, i'll give you another chance. I'll even rephrase to make it easier for ya.

Please point to any portion of the BBB OR the SM codex that says bikes are one of the rare units that count as stationary.

ender502

Posted By Imriel on 08/13/2007 9:48 AM
the fact that it applies to bikes is right in the quote itself, unless you're saying bikes aren't a unit that can move and fire heavy weapons. or for further proof pg 53 " In this section, you will find for each of these unit ypes. Unless stated in this section, these unite types follow the rules for infentry," so the only way to argue that the rule in question doesn't affect bikes is to argue that it doesn't affect any unit type.

Posted By Imriel on 08/13/2007 9:48 AM
the fact that it applies to bikes is right in the quote itself, unless you're saying bikes aren't a unit that can move and fire heavy weapons. or for further proof pg 53 " In this section, you will find for each of these unit ypes. Unless stated in this section, these unite types follow the rules for infentry," so the only way to argue that the rule in question doesn't affect bikes is to argue that it doesn't affect any unit type.

Oh dear lord.

Actually, what I am saying is that the "some rare units" quote does not apply to bikes. The only quote that applies to bikes is that in the bike section. The bike section never mentions pistols nor does it mention that  bikes count as stationary.

Bikes CAN do the following things....

"In adition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

As you can see, no mention of pistols. No mention of counting as stationary.

But to take up your arguement that as quoted "Unless stated in this section, these unit types follow the rules for infantry." Infantry cannot shoot  a pistol twice AND assault. This rule applie sto bikes because nothing in the bike section on P. 53 contradicts this infantry rule. On p. 53 the bike entry does state how rapid fre and heavy weapons can be used by bikes in a fashion unlike infantry.

ender502

Mr. Bombadidaloo-

From me you get nothing but love. And I don't mean that in a prison sense.. I mean that in a gentle and loving fashion with lots of spooning.

-ender502

Posted By ender502 on 08/13/2007 10:06 AM

Mr. Bombadidaloo-

From me you get nothing but love. And I don't mean that in a prison sense.. I mean that in a gentle and loving fashion with lots of spooning.

-ender502

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 10:20 AM
fists-first!

Fists fisrt? Sure thing pussycat it's your party. I'm open minded.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 08/13/2007 10:36 AM

it's your party

Posted By Janthkin on 08/13/2007 4:51 PM
Here, Ender, in premise-conclusion format:

P1: "Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons."

P2: "In addition, rapid fire weapons and heavy weapons may be fired if the unit moves and the bike is still allowed to charge into close combat in the same turn."

P1 & P2 => C1: Because bikes may move and fire heavy weapons, they fall within the scope of the second half of premise 1.


P3: "Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing."

P3 & C1 => C2: Because bikes meet one of the two criteria which define "such units" in premise 3, they "can charge after firing."


P4: < general list of actions which ordinarily prohibit charging, including firing pistols >

P3, C2, & P4 => C3: Because P3 is a specific applicable rule which overrides the general bar on assaulting, and because bikes can charge after firing, bikes can charge after firing pistols.

There is no-where that says P1 applies to a bike. Just because a bike in P2 follows part of the rule quoted in P1 you cannot assume or imply intent that the rest of the rule applies. To add anything else to it is basically an intent argument. If they meant it too say "counts as stationary" they should have said so. They didn't so you go RAW.

Ref P1 and P2 have a fatal flaw in the argument:- Just because a bike can fire heavy weapons and rapid fire weapons doesn't make the bike counts as stationary. That rule just means if an attack bike fires its HB/MM (Heavy Weapon) or  a bike fires "rapid fire" weapon (note - not a "rapid firing" weapon from P1 - "rapid fire" is a category of weapon "rapid firing" is an ability of the weapon) it can assault because P2 is fulfilled.

If the passanger fires a plasma gun he is carrying he can assault because P2 is still fulfilled because the PG falls into the category rapid fire weapon.

A pistol does not fall into the the category "rapid fire" weapon it falls into the category pistol (which has the ability to fire rapidly" . Not the same thing.

P3 is the same as P1 and therefore fails the test as well.

My Conclusion:  P1 doesn't apply to bikes, although some of the bike rules are similar to "counts as stationary" rules. If  double taps a pistol - P2 & P3 isn't satisfied. A pistol does not fall into the category of heavy weapon or a rapid fire weapon. It falls into the category of pistol. Therefore P2 is not satisfied. If P2 is not satisfied C1 becomes wrong. Therefore if a bike rapid fires a pistol he cannot assault.

Posted By Janthkin on 08/13/2007 4:51 PM
Here, Ender, in premise-conclusion format:

I'd prefer it in rule format.

I won't refute your premise or conslusion. Fullheadofhair has done that brilliantly. The only thing that I would restate is where he started.... No where doe sit say P1 applies to bikes. I have been asking for a quote of a rule (not a premise, intent or logical conclusion) that shows that bikes count as stationary for 3 stinking pages. Your post is lovely but does not connect P1 to bikes.

ender502

Posted By Alpharius on 08/13/2007 7:20 PM
Last one to leave, please turn the lights out!

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 7:18 PM
This is getting circular.

How the bloody hell are bikes not units that can move and fire heavy weapons ender. You're making gak up.

*click* light back on.

Doh! That isn't the discussion. Please try and keep up. 

Bikes can fire HW and move as well as rapid fire weapons - even assault.

They cannot fire pistols twice and assault because they don't count as stationary (even tho they do have some of the traits).

Don't you dare start the argument again that they count as stationary or, as triggerbaby has said "make a big round O ...."

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 10:08 PM
I never actually ever said they count as stationary.

Ender has accused me of that multiple times but I continue to say, they don't count as stationary.

They can still assault after firing.

The rule on page 36 reads "units that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing".

Are bikes units that can move and fire heavy weapons? To suggest they can't assault after firing is to suggest that this rule doesn't apply to them, and that can only be the case if bikes can't move and fire heavy weapons.

It's clear as crystal yet you guys just can't read.

Now you are just beng a pain in the rear end or are you just trying to make me eat my keyboard?

They can assault of firing HW and rapid fire weapons. No argument there. Not double tapped pistols though.

Argghhh I hate you.  You mere prescence on the internet has stopped looking at porn for 10 minutes - whats with that? (not really just being a drama queen)

Posted By fullheadofhair on 08/13/2007 10:25 PM

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 10:08 PM
I never actually ever said they count as stationary.

Ender has accused me of that multiple times but I continue to say, they don't count as stationary.

They can still assault after firing.

The rule on page 36 reads "units that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing".

Are bikes units that can move and fire heavy weapons? To suggest they can't assault after firing is to suggest that this rule doesn't apply to them, and that can only be the case if bikes can't move and fire heavy weapons.

It's clear as crystal yet you guys just can't read.

Now you are just beng a pain in the rear end or are you just trying to make me eat my keyboard?

They can assault of firing HW and rapid fire weapons. No argument there. Not double tapped pistols though.

Argghhh I hate you.  You mere prescence on the internet has stopped looking at porn for 10 minutes - whats with that? (not really just being a drama queen)

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/13/2007 11:18 PM

Posted By fullheadofhair on 08/13/2007 10:25 PM

Posted By onlainari on 08/13/2007 10:08 PM
I never actually ever said they count as stationary.

Ender has accused me of that multiple times but I continue to say, they don't count as stationary.

They can still assault after firing.

The rule on page 36 reads "units that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing".

Are bikes units that can move and fire heavy weapons? To suggest they can't assault after firing is to suggest that this rule doesn't apply to them, and that can only be the case if bikes can't move and fire heavy weapons.

It's clear as crystal yet you guys just can't read.

Now you are just beng a pain in the rear end or are you just trying to make me eat my keyboard?

They can assault of firing HW and rapid fire weapons. No argument there. Not double tapped pistols though.

Argghhh I hate you.  You mere prescence on the internet has stopped looking at porn for 10 minutes - whats with that? (not really just being a drama queen)

You look at porn while browsing warhammer forums? o.0

Imagine the rule said this:

"Any model that can move and fire heavy weapons gains the following status:
'This model may assault after firing.'
*Note: this applies to any type of shooting."

<3

Posted By don_mondo on 08/14/2007 6:53 AM

We'd have to use our imagination tho, wouldn't we, since it doesn't say that. The inference from context is that the ability to assault only applies to Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons, since all three weapon types are mentioned above the note section but only Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons are mentioned in the note section. Besides, even IF that section applied to pistols (which I do not believe it does), we couldn't necessarily say that it applied to Bikes, as Bikes have their own specific rules in the Bikes section telling us what they can do, ie assault after firing heavy or rapid fire weapons with no mention made of pistols, thus making it a case of a more specific rule (the Bikes section) overriding the general rule (the note section). And if it doesn't say they can, then they cannot.......................

Bikes CAN assault after firing a heavy because the bike rules say they can.

Bikes CAN assault after firing a rapid fire weapon because the bike rules say they can.

Bikes CANNOT assault after firing a pistol TWICE because the rules do not say they can.

Bikes do NOT count as stationary because the rules do NOT say they count as stationary.

The p.36 rules quote is part of the counts as stationary rule and NOT the bike rule. There is NO connection between the rules.

 I'll put this in Junior High geometry language for everyone.... The Bike rule and the Stationary rule are triangles that are SIMILAR BUT NOT CONGRUENT. Not all angles and sides are the same.

ender502

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/14/2007 7:12 AM

Posted By don_mondo on 08/14/2007 6:53 AM

We'd have to use our imagination tho, wouldn't we, since it doesn't say that. The inference from context is that the ability to assault only applies to Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons, since all three weapon types are mentioned above the note section but only Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons are mentioned in the note section. Besides, even IF that section applied to pistols (which I do not believe it does), we couldn't necessarily say that it applied to Bikes, as Bikes have their own specific rules in the Bikes section telling us what they can do, ie assault after firing heavy or rapid fire weapons with no mention made of pistols, thus making it a case of a more specific rule (the Bikes section) overriding the general rule (the note section). And if it doesn't say they can, then they cannot.......................

The explanation I provided is really just an exaggeration of exactly what it says; I'm trying to make it easier for you to understand how we are reading this in case it has yet to "click".

Notice the portion of your quote I italicized. This is pure assumption and arguing rules as intended vs. rules as written.

The rules as written are written in such a way that bikes are able to assault after firing any weapons- no matter how that paragraph relates to the rules above.

The rules as intended is most likely exactly what you are arguing- that because of the way things were explained earlier, and the way things are explained later in the BBB in reference to bikes, they meant for bikes to only be able to assault after firing rapid-fire and heavy weapons. The problem? That's not how they wrote it. There's no denying from me that the bikes should *not* be able to assault after firing pistols, and I never would in a game, but I'm arguing this for the sake of the rules, and hopefully they'll FAQ this and fix the 'typo' so there is no longer a way for it to be read in multiple ways.

Man oh man I'm gonna have to get myself some mint-chocolate-chip ice cream for realz soon.... sooo tastyyy.....

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/14/2007 8:16 AM
the conundrums of life surface in mysterious ways my friend

Back on topic, which do you think is better? Baskin Robins's or Cold Stone's mint-chocolate-chip ice cream???

Honestly, I'm torn.

Read p. 122 .... and I quote.... "Marines prefer Baskin Robins Jamocha Almond Fudge for it is the best ice cream to eat whilst firing your bolt pistol into the air and not charging."

RAW guys! RAW!

ender502