bikes and rapid fire

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**ender502**

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 9:04 AMThe specific overrides the general ONLY in the case of the rules being in conflict. The rules are NOT in conflict.
If the bike rule said that it cannot assault after firing pistols twice, then it would be in conflict and more specific. Lacking a specific rule about pistols from bikes, we go to the general rule, which is anything that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing, full stop.

That's the most cogent arguement so far. The problem is that p.36 does not apply to bikes. You keep forgetting the conjunctive word AND used on p.36. That creates a set of conditions that bikes do not meet. So it does not apply.

BTW, I still do not buy into the idea that p.36 actually describes a rule. But if it did it can only be said to apply to the specific exemptions... rapid fire and heavy weapons.

But, even assuming there is no conflict between the bikes rule and the p.36 note you STILL have a problem. The more specific pistol rules negates p.36. According to the pistol rule you cannot charge after double tapping.

ender502

**DaIronGob**

the bike rule said that it cannot assault after firing pistols twice

The bike rules do not need to say that as the Pistol Rules already do.

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

**Alpharius**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

the bike rule said that it cannot assault after firing pistols twice

...full stop.

Yes, please.

(i.e., agree to disagree)

**DaIronGob**

Oh hell, I got three posts in... and I get quoted to stop. I hate this board! I get to have NO FUN.

**Mr. Bombadidaloo**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 12:10 PM
Oh hell, I got three posts in... and I get quoted to stop. I hate this board! I get to have NO FUN.

There there, big guy... you're welcome to join me here on the sidelines. Here, have some of my ice cream, I've eaten waaaay too much. And if you get bored, I got some snazzy bolt pistols here with me, we can take pot shots at the posters while they try to delogicfy each other. But be careful! if you fire twice, you can't go punch them in the nads (unless you're riding a bike of course *cough cough cough*)

**Alpharius**

OK, fine, don't stop!

BUT, Mr. Bombadidaloo has to agree to post humorous asides more often.

Because there are two sides to this argument, and neither is going to convince the other of anything!

**ender502**

Posted By Alpharius on 08/15/2007 12:35 PM
OK, fine, don't stop!

Yeah! More debates for the debate god! Rhetoric for the rhetoric throne!

ender502

**Ozymandias**

Why would you want to double tap your pistols if your RF Bolters do the same thing?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Mr. Bombadidaloo**

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/15/2007 2:46 PM
Why would you want to double tap your pistols if your RF Bolters do the same thing?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Because your Slaanesh lord on a bike is absolutely in love with his blingin' master-crafted plasma pistol (he calls it his "sex pistol", go figure)

**skyth**

Posted By ender502 on 08/15/2007 9:34 AM

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 9:04 AMThe specific overrides the general ONLY in the case of the rules being in conflict. The rules are NOT in conflict.
If the bike rule said that it cannot assault after firing pistols twice, then it would be in conflict and more specific. Lacking a specific rule about pistols from bikes, we go to the general rule, which is anything that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing, full stop.

That's the most cogent arguement so far. The problem is that p.36 does not apply to bikes. You keep forgetting the conjunctive word AND used on p.36. That creates a set of conditions that bikes do not meet. So it does not apply.

Now you're just plugging your ears and screaming "I can't hear you".

All your arguments have been shown to be garbage. Yet, you keep stating them over and over again.

**skyth**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

Where does it say that bikes can only move and fire heavy weapons that are mounted on the bikes?

**skyth**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

Where does it say that bikes can only move and fire heavy weapons that are mounted on the bikes? (Here's a

**skyth**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

Where does it say that bikes can only move and fire heavy weapons that are mounted on the bikes? (Here's a hint...It

**skyth**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

Where does it say that bikes can only move and fire heavy weapons that are mounted on the bikes? (Here's a hint...It doesn't)

**skyth**

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/15/2007 10:04 AM

The rules for the bike assault after firing involve only those guns that are mounted on the bike itself. Any weapons not mounted on the bike do not apply therefore that 'rule' you post from pg36 does not apply. full stop.

Where does it say that bikes can only move and fire heavy weapons that are mounted on the bikes? (Here's a hint...It doesn't)

**Mr. Bombadidaloo**

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:23 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:23 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:23 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:23 PM

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:23 PM

I'm trying to make a point!!11!one!1!

CHILL

**skyth**

Actually, it was Dakka acting up. Didn't mean to multi-post.

**ender502**

Posted By skyth on 08/15/2007 3:21 PM
Now you're just plugging your ears and screaming "I can't hear you".

All your arguments have been shown to be garbage. Yet, you keep stating them over and over again.

I notice you don't quote the entire post. Typical, you have a future at FOX News.

The problem with what you have just said is that it is not useful at all.. My 9yo can call others arguements garbage.

We disagree. Fine. I happen to be right. You happen to be wrong. Example after example has shown how your arguement is based on 1. words not in evidence in the book 2. how it is superceded by both the pistol and bike rule 3. how it is questionable how the p.36 note is even a rule.

The tide of evidence is against you. Play how you want but from what I can see you will be playing wrong.

Ozymandias (sp?) The only reason I can see for the double tap would be a vet sergeant with plasma pistol.

ender502

**Mr. Bombadidaloo**

Random side question:
The Eversor Assassin has Fast Shot, which allows it to always count as stationary when firing its pistol. It also has a 12 inch assault move due to Combat Drugs or something. So if he were unable to assault after firing his pistol twice via Fast Shot, it would be almost entirely useless.

Why I think he might be able to shoot after firing his pistol twice via Fast Shot:

BBB, Page 29, "PISTOL WEAPONS"

...Models carrying pistol weapons can fire them once in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault phase, but cannot charge if they remained stationary to fire twice.

..."if they remained stationary to fire twice"...

Technically, if the assassin moves and fires twice via Fast Shot, he did not "remain stationary to fire twice," so technically he can assault via rules lawyering the RAW here.

NOW, lets put this into context of our previous argument- the bike! Suddenly the question becomes:
"Can a bike move and double-tap it's pistol?"

...because if it meets that requirement, then... *cough cough*

*stays still, fires a pistol twice, suddenly finds his legs unable to move*
*takes a step forward, fires pistol twice, feels as free as a bird!*

**ender502**

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/15/2007 6:22 PM
Random side question:
The Eversor Assassin has Fast Shot, which allows it to always count as stationary when firing its pistol. It also has a 12 inch assault move due to Combat Drugs or something. So if he were unable to assault after firing his pistol twice via Fast Shot, it would be almost entirely useless.

Why I think he might be able to shoot after firing his pistol twice via Fast Shot:

BBB, Page 29, "PISTOL WEAPONS"

...Models carrying pistol weapons can fire them once in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault phase, but cannot charge if they remained stationary to fire twice.

..."if they remained stationary to fire twice"...

Technically, if the assassin moves and fires twice via Fast Shot, he did not "remain stationary to fire twice," so technically he can assault via rules lawyering the RAW here.

NOW, lets put this into context of our previous argument- the bike! Suddenly the question becomes:
"Can a bike move and double-tap it's pistol?"

...because if it meets that requirement, then... *cough cough*

*stays still, fires a pistol twice, suddenly finds his legs unable to move*
*takes a step forward, fires pistol twice, feels as free as a bird!*

Now that is almost as delicious as Jamocha Almond Fudge. Good job. So, we could rephrase the question.... "Must a bike remain (or count as) stationary in order to fire a pistol twice?" I think the answer would have to be "Yes, a bike must remain (or count as remaining) stationary in order to shoot a pistol twice."

Well, like infantry he COULD remain stationary (actually not move) AND double tap. No problem there.

But does he count as stationary per p.36 note? I don't think so. The bike doesn't count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons. That's why he can't always fire a single shot at max distance from a rapid fire weapon. He only has that as it concerns mounted rapid fire weapons. Such are not mentioned on p.36 and seem to be a very specific exception.

That was a great example Bombadidaloo. Usually examples run just way off topic but that was perfect. I am not sure which way you were edging in your post but no matter it was a great post.

So, can you see where I am going with why I don't think the bike "counts as stationary?"

ender502

**Mr. Bombadidaloo**

Yeah, in all the confusion of debate, I forgot that it does not specifically mention bikes count as stationary for all purposes of fire. Whoops... Still, would you say that the assassin would be able to assault in the example I gave?

And... *blush* thanks for the 'praise'

Took me a while to find a 'good' reason to post something new in this thread <3

**yakface**

Yep, by the RAW Eversors cannot shoot their pistol and charge the same turn. . .very silly and in my FAQ I obviously reversed it.

As for the main debate in this thread, I can only say that the argument doesn't pass the 'is it worth it?' test.

I mean, how often is a stationary biker firing a pistol then charging into combat really going to make any kind of difference in a game? I think you guys have probably posted more times in this thread then the situation has come up in real life games across the world.

That said, I fully agree with Janthkin. He presented a completely logical argument that no one has actually disproven.

Are we ready for a thread lock yet?

**ender502**

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 08/15/2007 9:03 PM
Yeah, in all the confusion of debate, I forgot that it does not specifically mention bikes count as stationary for all purposes of fire. Whoops... Still, would you say that the assassin would be able to assault in the example I gave?

And... *blush* thanks for the 'praise' Took me a while to find a 'good' reason to post something new in this thread <3

I think the assassin could move AND shoot twice but could not assault. His rule is very specific to what it allows him to do with a pistol. But it doesn't give an exemption for charging after firing the two shots.

EDIT" Bomnadidaloo you dirty $^&(&^... it was YOU that asked the damn pistol question on post #2! You are the cause of all this misery. Now where's my ice cream?

ender502

**ender502**

Posted By yakface on 08/16/2007 1:02 AM

Yep, by the RAW Eversors cannot shoot their pistol and charge the same turn. . .very silly and in my FAQ I obviously reversed it.

As for the main debate in this thread, I can only say that the argument doesn't pass the 'is it worth it?' test.

I mean, how often is a stationary biker firing a pistol then charging into combat really going to make any kind of difference in a game? I think you guys have probably posted more times in this thread then the situation has come up in real life games across the world.

That said, I fully agree with Janthkin. He presented a completely logical argument that no one has actually disproven.

Are we ready for a thread lock yet?

Alas we probably are ready for lock. Though i disagree with you 100%. I think Janths arguement is logical but does not involve the RAW at all.

But let me ask you Yak, do you think the biker can move, double tap AND charge? That is the issue.

Oh, and I think the issue is exceptionally important to anyone that uses bikes. So that would be... me?

Lock away as you see fit.

ender502

**skyth**

The biker can't move and double-tap a pistol. Nothing allows him to do that.

**ender502**

Posted By skyth on 08/16/2007 5:41 AM
The biker can't move and double-tap a pistol. Nothing allows him to do that.

We at least agree on that. That has been my major issue the whole time...grrrr... How many pages of posts wasted?

Ah, Yak's mere presence is like a debate High Colonic! I feel cleansed!

(though he only agrees with Janth because I won't name the baby after him)

ender502

**DaIronGob**

The biker can't move and double-tap a pistol. Nothing allows him to do that

And the pistol rules then cleary state that if a model stands still to fire the pistol twice they cannot charge.

There it is! LOCK LOCK LOCK QUICK!

**skyth**

That is overriden by the more specific models that can move and fire heavy weapons can assault after firing.

So if a bike stands still to double-tap, it can assault after firing. However, if the bike moves, it cannot double-tap.

**ender502**

Wheeee! The ride starts again!

Beat you to it you evil Mr. Bombadidaloo! Here's rainbow sherbert in your eye!

Well, at least we agree that bikes can't move, double and charge.

ender502

**DaIronGob**

So it's ok to just mix and match whatever rules you want to use?

So follow part of the pistol rule but disregard it later? That makes absolutely no sense at all. If you have to stand still to fire it twice then you obviously aren't using any of the "counts as stationary" rules.

But then you want to say that firing a heavy weapon and assaulting is the same as standing still to fire a pistol.

And you are trying to say that assaulting after firing a heavy weapon is somehow more specific that "if you fire a pistol twice you have to stand still and not assault?"

Nice try but no.