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OK Devil's advocate time.

Chaos cults (Lost and damned, mutants, genestealer cults whatever) have been a part of 40k since the start.  They make a perfect evil opposite of the Imperial Guard, are popular with modelists and have been the subject of quite a few full conversion armies (including mine).

Yet the only models have been the pointy hat and dress guys who were released at the end of 2nd edition and some forgeworld hideously expensive resin.

And the only rules ahve been half-baked appendexes for Chaos marines and the Inquisition.

And GW did do an entire Evil Eldar army.

So... why not?  Why are there no plastic kits full of chaos cultists, no codex, no nothing?

Let's not whine, let's just ask why not?  Are there any valid reasons the necons (whose first version were some of the ugliest models GW ever made) or the Dark Eldar live on but the Cultists do not?

My guess is that it isn't difficult enough of a conversion to do as opposed to DE being more spikey and naked compared to the Eldar. Also, the DE have their own model range of vehicles which don't have less spikey Eldar analogues. (Though whether that is good or bad I don't know, probably bad really.)

Essentially I think that LatD only needs a codex and a bits conversion kit to really do it. Why GW doesn't provide that is really beyond me, since it could use parts that are pretty much already produced but packaged in different sets. I personally think LatD are really cool, though I would like to see more alien species as well. Space skeletons and evil space elves don't cut it in my opinion. If asked whether I wanted a LatD codex and minis or some truly alien species with a very different army list to play, I might be hard pressed to decide.

I think basically it comes down to marketing.  GW, it seems, doesn't want to put all their resources into an army that isn't distinct and separate from the others.  If it can't be supported by 4-5 plastic kits and a set of metal models, it's not a separate entity.  LotD can be built by combining pre-existing plastic kits, so when a Mom goes to buy her son a squad box, can't just walk in and buy a Cultists Squad box and be done with it.  Either the kid'll want some Cadians and some Flagellants or a Leman Russ, none of which would be branded as part of the LotD army.  They're not distinct enough.

It's branding.  You know an Eldar box when you see it.  You know a Marine box when you see it.  LotD could get lost in the mix.

All we really need it a codex.  Maybe it needs to be done General's Compendium-style.

GW has said that they want to fully support their existing armies with more regular updates. Both 40K and Fantasy already have 15 or so armies which is GW's self-imposed limit.

There simply isn't room for another army unless there's a huge market upswing allowing GW to take on additional staff and do quicker releases.

Yes, 'cause those Honorable Blue Marines, secretive Green Marines, Angry Red Marines, Angry (in a different way) Black Marines, and Angry (in a bestial way) Gray Marines really require a lot of extensive and separate work. *sigh*

Your point is an accurate expression of GW's position; I just wish they'd take a look at it and realize how stupid a position it seems, from the outside.

I never get tired of different coloured marine jokes.

I'd say it's because it's hard for the designers to go to the money men and say "look!LATD produced 8 hojillion pounds in sales revenue!" because there is no defined LATD range. Chaos, Gaurd, Orks, Undead and so on all get some revenue, but it's impossible to discern the money making potential of the army in terms of sales. If they could convince the money men that it would turn a profit you know they'd be all over it like custard on apple crumble.

Maybe this is where Forgeowrld should step in. A Genestealer cult army would only need a dozen models and a couple of conversion kits, same for a LatD, Arbite, Harelequin, Exodite, Adeptus Mechanicus or whatever army.

I realise that something has to have a potential ££ value to become a 'codex' army but perhaps less so just for some subsidiary of GW to produce figures for it.

Devil's advocate:


1) LatD would be a true rabble army. Even worse than the IG, their basic trooper should/would be pretty pathetic meaning that it would be an army where you paint up all your models and then remove them from the table by the handful. I don't know how many players out there are into that type of army.


2) LatD should really represent a huge variety of different troop and vehicle types. Even more than the IG (which uses STC technology to produce standard vehicles) LatD armies should draw their vehicles and equipment from localized production centers (i.e. wierd looking and inefficient vehicles and weapons). For example, in the Gaunts Ghosts books the enemies always have wierd variant weapons and vehicles (like stalk-tanks).

From a cohesive design standpoint, that would be a really daunting challenge. Do you just pick a single world and make the LatD models from that standpoint, or do you try to do a multi-faceted range (like the old IG regiments) that are drawn from many different worlds? That's a difficult mountain to climb, especially for an army that probably won't sell all that well.


3) Ultimately the army is going to be pretty similar in look and style to the Imperial Guard (with a few changes of course). In some cases mirrored armies have sold well (Space Marine variants and Chaos Space Marines) but in other cases they haven't done so well (Dark Eldar), so perhaps GW is afraid to add another mirror army to the mix.



Now, I personally don't think any of those three reasons are enough to prevent what should be THE main Imperial opponent in 40K from having an official codex and model range, but I'm guessing the true reason(s) GW hasn't done so lies somewhere in those three points.

They're not space marines.

Posted By yakface on 10/28/2007 3:39 PM

1) LatD would be a true rabble army. Even worse than the IG, their basic trooper should/would be pretty pathetic meaning that it would be an army where you paint up all your models and then remove them from the table by the handful. I don't know how many players out there are into that type of army.

This isn't necessarily true, Alpha Legion cultists and Blood Pact type troops can make up LatD armies. Even if the list does not include Chaos Space Marines (my preferred preference) it would still have access to many powerful troop types such as Possessed, Spawn and of course Chaos champions. Such an army need not be filled with 'fodder' more than say an Imperial Guard army.

As for removing models by the handful, well Apocalypse seems to be selling well.

There is no argument against it.

The Lost & The Damned are a vibrant, characterful and fluffy force, make up the vast majority of the Imperium's enemies in the fluff, and as a list they were flexible and powerful even when keeping to the fluff.

They're a perfect 40K force.

BYE

Honestly, I think they've just never gotten around to it. If they would have done it it would have been instead of Tau, presuming that Necron > Tau since there were already minis out for the Necrons. And now those silly Dark Eldar need an update, and the Space Wolves, and whatever happened to Inquisition, anyway, and Codex Marines are still fun and pay 50 points for a Rhino we should probably change something, and maybe we should take another look at Tyranids they've become quite popular and the Carnifex could use some tweaking my it does sell well doesn't it.

I have to agree that there's no reason not to continue the tradition of the hybrid Eye of Terror list. It wouldn't kill them to make a plastic Traitor/scruffy looking flak armour guard box of some kind. Again, if they were to have done that it would have taken priority over the Vostroyans.

40k is supposed to go: 1) Minatures 2) Rich background history including an eye for tradition and 3) Rules/game-play.

But if they're going to do it, I wish they would at least take a look at the rules before publishing them because 8pts is too much for a ld6 Traitor guardsmen.

Well, maybe if we want Lost and the Damned, we should look at the only clearly defined "Cult" armies we've got in the background so far. The Blood Pact and Sons of Sek both, with a smattering of the Infardi; all from Gaunt's Ghosts novels. Codex: Blood Pact might not actually be a bad idea...

Posted By Da Boss on 10/28/2007 12:48 PM
I'd say it's because it's hard for the designers to go to the money men and say "look!LATD produced 8 hojillion pounds in sales revenue!" because there is no defined LATD range. Chaos, Gaurd, Orks, Undead and so on all get some revenue, but it's impossible to discern the money making potential of the army in terms of sales. If they could convince the money men that it would turn a profit you know they'd be all over it like custard on apple crumble.

I think this is almost certainly part of it.  Nothing freaks finance and marketing people out more than an unknown, and LatD sales are certainly invisible.

Now, you'd think the lack of dedicated box sets makes LatD a perfect WD list opportunity.  However, Jervis indicated in a letter to me that if they're going to do LatD, they'd get a full codex with dedicated plastic boxes to sell.  So Cosmic is right...it's as much a marketing thing as anything else. 

What's apparent from Jervis's comments is that unlike Squats, they like the concept.  And I bet the old-timer in Jervis really likes the idea of a veteran's/modeler's army like LatD.  But as the Daemon codex shows, the design folks aren't steering the ship.  I can't imagine 40K rules for WFB Daemonic Legions is the best concept they have for a second Chaos book. 

So I guess the answer is that there really is no GOOD case against LatD, it's just that the stars haven't really aligned for them. 

On a side note, I hope that everyone asking about LatD has SIGNED THE PETITION and SENT GW A LETTER.  Seriously, send them a letter (or two!).  They DO get read and Jervis may very will write you a reply.  One letter probably holds the weight of 100 petition signatures.  If GW sees money to be made, LatD will get bumped up the list (and for what it's worth, I think the LatD's popularity has surprised them a little).  But we have some convincing to do. 

The Renegades and Heretics list from Imperial Armour five seems like a good representation of traitor forces. Currently it isn't the full list size that one might expect, but according to the back of IA5 it will be completed in the next IA book, where Cardinal Xiaphon's Daemons show up.

The only valid argument I can see against it is that they want to update the Guard codex first.

Let's face it, the real issue is the models and any range they want to support. If they are considering, say updating the Leman Russ to have all the options on a plastic kit, have completely plastic Demolishers and Hellhounds, etc. Those models would have to be realeased before you can repackage them with one different sprue and call them "Chaos Leman Russes" etc.

That could be the only thing I can think of that would make them hesitant to release the LatD codex. Because as "new" armies go, supporting a Lost and the Damned codex wouldn't be that hard. Taking all the IG tanks and repackaging them, maybe adding a new tank, two plastic infantry sets, and a few medal characters will most definitely make the army distinctive on the shelves, and can't cost GW any more money than any of their other codex releases.

*No product champion. No major former developer I am aware of has been a product champion for this army.

 

*Transparency of sales. The LATD list and 13^th Crusade sales were effectively transparent. Sales for chaos marines are easy to see. Sales for Imperial guard likewise. However, LATD consists of other line minis + (at best) the chaos sprue that was offered at the time. GW never sees how much the demand is impacting purchases. When I did my LATD force they only saw increased “popularity” in the chaos demon sales and some GW marine minis. New demon codex? Is there a connection? (already overbloated sense of self importance growing further).

 

Actually some additional chaos sprues and generic sprues could make lists for LATD, mercs, DARK ELDAR, whatever.

I would place money on, if they do do a Lost and the Damned Codex, we would get a Traitor Gaurdsman boxed set and a mutants boxed set (think Chaos Spawn). The rest of the range can be simply the tanks with a Traitor Guard Sprue and repackaged in much the same way as the loyalist marine tanks are repackaged for Chaos.

Posted By Mahu on 10/29/2007 10:54 AM
I would place money on, if they do do a Lost and the Damned Codex, we would get a Traitor Gaurdsman boxed set and a mutants boxed set (think Chaos Spawn). The rest of the range can be simply the tanks with a Traitor Guard Sprue and repackaged in much the same way as the loyalist marine tanks are repackaged for Chaos.

In the Ghosts novels, the Chaos Cults have always used various different non-Imperial Tanks. Depending on how popular LatD would seem to be, they certain have plenty of material to make original tanks for them.

I think that GW could get away with a dinky Space Wolf sized codex with some "Traitor" bitz packs, and maybe some mutants. If they wanted to be super cool, they could include a VDR system of sorts where the player could start with a basic chasis and add armor and weapons etc. to vehicles that then would be scratch builds. Think old Orkz with a dash of uber flexible design. The vehicles could be 0-2 or 3, and of course would be less efficient than the IG equivalents, but could be built to spec to match how the player wants to do it. They could even sell a boxed set of vehicle bitz to aid in conversions and scratch builds. I suspect lots of players would jump at that hotness, with very little new in the way of model molds and set up. GW could just sell bitz they already make in a new box, a few zombies and make a new Codex, which honestly shouldn't be too hard given that it is so heavily based on a pre-existing demi-dex Lost and the Damned, and whatever IG turns out to be.

In other words, it seems to me that 70% of the work is done, and they really have a failure proof proposition here. Very little new investment in both time and money is required, and the possibility of squeezing out extra use from established sets is impressive.

I still maintain that the backbone of a semi-unified Chaos force should be Lost and the Damned. It fits a lot better, and is a nice way to differentiate the traitorous hordes from the loyalist imperials who have to bend over backwards with special ally rules and expensive Inquisition codices to mix Guard and Space Marines.

Were I in charge, Codex: Chaos would have been LatD with Chaos Space Marines in the Elite role and a variant for the current CSM army.

Basic LatD requirements would be an updated codex. There's a lot else that could be done, of course.

As has been said, the Gaunt's Ghost novels are filled with ideas for add-ons. New vehicles, ideas for new models, etc.


*They're Chaos. Expecting too much unification is just silly.

I think it'd be pretty cool to have a codex that uses Chaosified versions of other army list entries. It would be a pain to use, unless they reproduced statlines of everything useable in the codex, but TBH, Chaos-possessed Orks and Chaos Eldar and Chaos Tau all in the same army list would be pretty sweet (I know it goes against fluff in some respects - Orks are too stupid or somesuch to be affected, I think - but still...)

Right now, I'm torn between AdMech and non-Imperial Humans. I've taken a crack at making such a list - again, not enough time to devote. LatD are a definite winner though, seeing as how they are the primary opponent of the Imperium, moreso than the Naughty Marines by a 10:1 ratio, IMHO.

CK

I don't like the idea of Chaos Orks- Orks are the happiest race in the galaxy, Chaos can't find a way into their minds.
Maybe a captured, isolated ork kept barely awake and sedated could get dissatisfied and angry enough to be infected but I like to think that the great glorious masses of Boyz are immune.
Anyway, as jfrazell said, price transparency might be the biggest problem. It is irratating that factions need a "champion" to get anywhere, but it seems to be a fact.

Posted By Balance on 10/29/2007 11:44 AM
I still maintain that the backbone of a semi-unified Chaos force should be Lost and the Damned. It fits a lot better, and is a nice way to differentiate the traitorous hordes from the loyalist imperials who have to bend over backwards with special ally rules and expensive Inquisition codices to mix Guard and Space Marines.

Were I in charge, Codex: Chaos would have been LatD with Chaos Space Marines in the Elite role and a variant for the current CSM army.

You and me both man, you and me both.

Chaos marines haven't been able to refill their ranks at the same rate as their loyalist counter-parts and the ones that have survived should be all manner of nasty veterans.

A Chaos army should never be able to be filled solely out by CSMs anymore (IMO), Chaos cultists and renegade guard should be the troops and CSMs should be the elites.

I too really think this focus would help to differentiate Chaos from Imperial Space Marines.

OTT but I wonder if the new orkie dex could provide a rules base for a counts as LATD list. the differing strengths/toughness etc could represent different muties/traitors in an official tournament way.

Who remembers the scene from First and Only where ONE plague marine walks out of an elevator and two imperial gaurd regiments *gak* themselves.
That would be great, in a LATD army.
Really, Abnett did more for them than anybody.

Posted By yakface on 10/30/2007 11:19 AM

Posted By Balance on 10/29/2007 11:44 AM
I still maintain that the backbone of a semi-unified Chaos force should be Lost and the Damned. It fits a lot better, and is a nice way to differentiate the traitorous hordes from the loyalist imperials who have to bend over backwards with special ally rules and expensive Inquisition codices to mix Guard and Space Marines.

Were I in charge, Codex: Chaos would have been LatD with Chaos Space Marines in the Elite role and a variant for the current CSM army.

You and me both man, you and me both.

Chaos marines haven't been able to refill their ranks at the same rate as their loyalist counter-parts and the ones that have survived should be all manner of nasty veterans.

A Chaos army should never be able to be filled solely out by CSMs anymore (IMO), Chaos cultists and renegade guard should be the troops and CSMs should be the elites.

I too really think this focus would help to differentiate Chaos from Imperial Space Marines.

I agree completely. A few dead-hard squads of CSM vets backed up by a massive corrupted IG gunline.

That really should be slick, and EXACTLY what the Chaos Codex should have been. Then you release a Legion book or two detailing the dedicated "pure" legions of CSM.

I just don't get why everyone sees this BUT GW. They are in a sea of people with sweaty fistfulls of cash thrusting out, and the GW guys find the one fellow who doesn't seem to have the cash to get a cup of coffee, and ask him "What can we do to please you?"
"Well" he replies, breath whistling through cracked and rotten teeth "I like hooch, and sandwiches. Simple things."
"Hmmm... you know, I like sandwiches. Hooch isn't so bad either... perhaps you are on to something with this 'simple' idea..."

I thought of another reason against them. There are players out there who do now want to play 'boring old humans' (tm) so GW is afraid of putting out any human armies.

Think about it, 40k has 1 pure human army, fantasy 2, everyone else is mutants, cyborgs, marines and the like.

2 pure human armies. Don't forget the nuns with guns. but you have a point.