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Go ahead, let out ALL of your vitriol here. 5th Edition RUINED my Tau. RUINED!! I'm playing the Spayss Marinez 4 EVAH!

You read my mind.

See?
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I hate the Index Astartes!

5th edition killed my Marines!

I'm playing TAU~er, wait a minute...

When is 6th coming out? I'm tired of 5th, it sucks.

Space Marines are Toughness 4 now?!? WTF!!!

5th edition ruined my orks! I'm playing squats now.

Dakkaladd just passed all his command checks!

I'm just happy that we have a Kvetching Thread.

Honestly I don't know what to think about the new rules. Some of it straight up sucks, and some of it seems absolutely great.

Right now I just can't help but realize how damn good Chaos just got.

Basic Marines with BP+CCW + 2 Specials in 10 man squads, or better yet Plague Marines in the same configuration. Then for Heavy Support you get Defilers, who sit in hard cover and put down pie plates to handle hordes, and to do anti-tank you just use Meltas in your line squads.

Add in the Obligatory Demon Prince, maybe a sorcerer, or second Prince, and the Generic Greater Demon, and you're looking at something really good.

Marines can do something similar with Whirlwinds, I think Land Raiders will be sick again, finally.

Horde Orks just got silly, IMO, but once people catch on to the fact that Templates will be amazing, especially against what will turn into a game with masses and masses of troops, their impact will lessen.

Honestly, I'm just so fed up with 4th Ed that I welcome just about any change. I don't want to play 4th because of the stupid armies that exist in the rules as they are.

Since I'm making a bunch of dave taylor copycat IG, I actually look forward to making a bunch of flamethrower+HB squads. I'm kidding myself when I think the flamethrower will actually do anything but the thought is nice.

I don't know what if i should like the Tank approach 5th edition rules are taking. Pill boxes are not cool, but what do you do if the main gun is destroyed? I would burn some rubber and bring those Heavy Bolters n your opponents face, and then ram his precious tanks away with A14 front...heheh

See how that will work out, other than that looks good.

Greets
Schepp himself

Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.
New Universal Special Rules that are rendered irrelevant by pet project armies? Check.
Further reduction of variety and choice in viable army lists? Check.
Elimination of smaller points game options that are scenario and objectives based (e.g. Combat Patrol and Killteam)? Check.
Cartoonish obsession with skulls to the point where Gwar and Napalm Death would think it's lame and overdone? Check.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this would be...a new edition of Warhammer 40,000! Fifth verse same as the first!

What can you do about it?


Privateer Press is my master now.

Infantry moving as fast as my tanks? Check.
Tanks sitting in cover with little movement? Check.
Having to take railheads to play against hordes? Check.
Shield drones' utility questionable again? Check.
Photon grenades just like everybody else's? Check.
Fire Warriors continue to suck, but are required? Check (x2).
Running to the center of the board to be in HTH FTW? Check.
Another edition with questionable editing and incomplete line of army Codexes? Check.

AT-43 looking better all the time? Check.

Here's a thought that just occured to me.

In 3rd ed. vehicles moved to deliver their assault troops.

In 4th ed. vehicles moved to get glancing only (on skimmers) and because they could be mobile and still shoot.

In 5th ed. vehicles don't have either of these incentives, sounds exciting!

syr8766 wrote:Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.


Privateer Press is my master now.

All I can say is, enjoy Privateer Press's 'golden age' while it lasts, because it will end at some point.


When they finally max out their range of miniatures to the point where retailers can't add any new models without ceasing to carry another model PP will finally have to make the hard decisions GW has.

They'll either have to:

eliminate units or a whole race in order to make room for a new race which of course drives players away as their race/units are no longer supported.

Stop introducing new races and/or units which kills the 'new' factor of the game and puts it in into stagnation which most gamers can't stand.

Start revamping their miniatures line re-doing previous models and tweaking the rules to make sure people buy the new minis (because how else can you continue to sell models?).

Chuck the whole game and start over, which of course would drive everyone bonkers.

I mean seriously, everyone wants to paint GW as the devil but the reality is, what does a game company do when they have a game that has maxed out its shelf space? You have to figure out a way to keep selling new miniatures to the same players and that means you have to change SOMETHING.

You gotta tweak the rules (change the balance of power) to get people to buy new minis.
You gotta put out new versions of the same models to try to get people to 'upgrade' their existing models.
You gotta eventually phase out some models/units/armies in order to make room for new ones.


You can 'retire' an army and let the minis go OOP and keep a version of the rules in print, but honestly that solution doesn't keep the people who bought those armies very happy as players usually want some sort of update to their army eventually. Plus, if you ever want to tweak your core rules (to try to get people to buy new units) you now have to re-visit all these old OOP armies with their archive rules.

The only other alternative is just to say: "this game is done" and stop putting out new minis and rules for it, but again most players consider this kind of retirement death for their game.

Right or wrong, CHANGE is the lifeblood of miniature gaming and why Games Workshop games have managed to last 25 years.


So yeah, I welcome the change of 5th edition. The wording in the codices and rulebook continues to get tighter and improve and I like the core values they seem to be focused on.


bring it on, I can't wait!

yakface wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.


Privateer Press is my master now.

All I can say is, enjoy Privateer Press's 'golden age' while it lasts, because it will end at some point.


When they finally max out their range of miniatures to the point where retailers can't add any new models without ceasing to carry another model PP will finally have to make the hard decisions GW has.

They'll either have to: [do a lot of things that are icky]

Oh, I know. Every game has a life span, and there will be an update/reboot at some point. The level of updating going on with Prime-Prime Remix was necessary in the beginning, but has to peter out eventually. With the "Pirates" book (essentially, a Warmachine 'codex') and the "Legends" book coming out, I'm curious to see what happens. I'm also curious to see what happens when PP starts dumping a lot of energy in a CMG. So yeah, the end will come, but for now...

No spase marinz in my game! HURR!

There are quite a few PP minis that could benefit from new sculpts (including everything in the Legion of Everblight).


.... oh yeah, uh, 5th edition man. I STILL can't afford a gaunt horde. Stinkin' 5th edition.

yakface wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.


Privateer Press is my master now.

All I can say is, enjoy Privateer Press's 'golden age' while it lasts, because it will end at some point.


When they finally max out their range of miniatures to the point where retailers can't add any new models without ceasing to carry another model PP will finally have to make the hard decisions GW has.

They'll either have to:

eliminate units or a whole race in order to make room for a new race which of course drives players away as their race/units are no longer supported.

Stop introducing new races and/or units which kills the 'new' factor of the game and puts it in into stagnation which most gamers can't stand.

Start revamping their miniatures line re-doing previous models and tweaking the rules to make sure people buy the new minis (because how else can you continue to sell models?).

Chuck the whole game and start over, which of course would drive everyone bonkers.

I mean seriously, everyone wants to paint GW as the devil but the reality is, what does a game company do when they have a game that has maxed out its shelf space? You have to figure out a way to keep selling new miniatures to the same players and that means you have to change SOMETHING.

You gotta tweak the rules (change the balance of power) to get people to buy new minis.
You gotta put out new versions of the same models to try to get people to 'upgrade' their existing models.
You gotta eventually phase out some models/units/armies in order to make room for new ones.


You can 'retire' an army and let the minis go OOP and keep a version of the rules in print, but honestly that solution doesn't keep the people who bought those armies very happy as players usually want some sort of update to their army eventually. Plus, if you ever want to tweak your core rules (to try to get people to buy new units) you now have to re-visit all these old OOP armies with their archive rules.

The only other alternative is just to say: "this game is done" and stop putting out new minis and rules for it, but again most players consider this kind of retirement death for their game.

Right or wrong, CHANGE is the lifeblood of miniature gaming and why Games Workshop games have managed to last 25 years.


So yeah, I welcome the change of 5th edition. The wording in the codices and rulebook continues to get tighter and improve and I like the core values they seem to be focused on.


bring it on, I can't wait!

Yak, don't get baited by the Rabbi. We all know he's just trolling the
GW thread because of his VSF addiction to homebrew army lists and
ironclad landships.

People are still playing/buying the PP stuff for now, so
the game's pretty safe. I'm willing to bet it will be good for at least
another 10 years (that's five major expansions for each of the
game lines), in which I'll have played more games of PP games
than I ever did or will of GW ones. If it dies, it dies, but I'll still
have my armies and be happy that I painted them. I treat my
Eldar the same way.

I'm trying to understand the impetus of going back to the 3rd edition vehicle rules? Whats wrong with the S6 defensive weapons issue? Absent 2-3 specific vehicles, they seemed awfully weak as it was. How is GW going to sell vehicle minis if vehicles are nerfed?

jfrazell wrote:I'm trying to understand the impetus of going back to the 3rd edition vehicle rules? Whats wrong with the S6 defensive weapons issue? Absent 2-3 specific vehicles, they seemed awfully weak as it was. How is GW going to sell vehicle minis if vehicles are nerfed?

Apocalypse datafaxes.

Ardboyz tournaments.

S4 Defensive Weapons.

It's the single worst thing to happen to the game in the new edition.

BYE

yakface wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.


Privateer Press is my master now.

All I can say is, enjoy Privateer Press's 'golden age' while it lasts, because it will end at some point.


When they finally max out their range of miniatures to the point where retailers can't add any new models without ceasing to carry another model PP will finally have to make the hard decisions GW has.

They'll either have to:

eliminate units or a whole race in order to make room for a new race which of course drives players away as their race/units are no longer supported.

Stop introducing new races and/or units which kills the 'new' factor of the game and puts it in into stagnation which most gamers can't stand.

Start revamping their miniatures line re-doing previous models and tweaking the rules to make sure people buy the new minis (because how else can you continue to sell models?).

Chuck the whole game and start over, which of course would drive everyone bonkers.

I mean seriously, everyone wants to paint GW as the devil but the reality is, what does a game company do when they have a game that has maxed out its shelf space? You have to figure out a way to keep selling new miniatures to the same players and that means you have to change SOMETHING.

You gotta tweak the rules (change the balance of power) to get people to buy new minis.
You gotta put out new versions of the same models to try to get people to 'upgrade' their existing models.
You gotta eventually phase out some models/units/armies in order to make room for new ones.


You can 'retire' an army and let the minis go OOP and keep a version of the rules in print, but honestly that solution doesn't keep the people who bought those armies very happy as players usually want some sort of update to their army eventually. Plus, if you ever want to tweak your core rules (to try to get people to buy new units) you now have to re-visit all these old OOP armies with their archive rules.

The only other alternative is just to say: "this game is done" and stop putting out new minis and rules for it, but again most players consider this kind of retirement death for their game.

Right or wrong, CHANGE is the lifeblood of miniature gaming and why Games Workshop games have managed to last 25 years.


So yeah, I welcome the change of 5th edition. The wording in the codices and rulebook continues to get tighter and improve and I like the core values they seem to be focused on.


bring it on, I can't wait!

I should save this to a text file and just cut and paste it every time to save myself the trouble of making this argument over and over.

Adamsouza, please exaplin how the defensive weapons shift from S6 to S4 continues to tighten and improve the rulebook?

I'm looking forward to correcting people still trying to use bits and pieces of 3rd edition rules under 5th edition.

And if 5th edition takes this away from me, I quit!

People on Dakka Still complaining . . .Check
Me complaining about people still complaining... Check

H.B.M.C. wrote:S4 Defensive Weapons.

It's the single worst thing to happen to the game in the new edition.

BYE

The only rule I don't like of the new rumors. Should be S5 if you ask me, S4 is ridiculous and S6 is hardly "defensive" IMO

Otherwise ... bring it on!

- Salvage

malfred wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I'm trying to understand the impetus of going back to the 3rd edition vehicle rules? Whats wrong with the S6 defensive weapons issue? Absent 2-3 specific vehicles, they seemed awfully weak as it was. How is GW going to sell vehicle minis if vehicles are nerfed?

Apocalypse datafaxes.

Ardboyz tournaments.

Apocalypse is irrelevant. This is a game not toy soldiers making "pew pew" noises (thats funny right thar I don't care who ya are)

Ardboyz. I have not seen a discussion concerning the evil brokenness of defensive weapons before.

malfred wrote:

yakface wrote:

syr8766 wrote:Units/armies that were good in previous edition now bad? Check.
Units/armies that were bad in previous edition now 'must haves'? Check.


Privateer Press is my master now.

All I can say is, enjoy Privateer Press's 'golden age' while it lasts, because it will end at some point.

Yak, don't get baited by the Rabbi. We all know he's just trolling the
GW thread because of his VSF addiction to homebrew army lists and
ironclad landships.

You cannot resist. It is your DESTINY. [/Palpatine]

beef wrote:People on Dakka Still complaining . . .Check
Me complaining about people still complaining... Check

Beef using horrible spelling, incomplete sentences and crap grammar.... UNCHECK!?!?!

WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH BEEF!?!?!

People are taking this thread a lot more seriously that I imagined. Behold the Power of Dakka, I guess.

Like I said before, I'm just going to play 5th for a while and see how it goes. If I have fun, then it's a success. Any other metric is meaningless to me.

KiMonarrez wrote:

beef wrote:People on Dakka Still complaining . . .Check
Me complaining about people still complaining... Check

Beef using horrible spelling, incomplete sentences and crap grammar.... UNCHECK!?!?!

WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH BEEF!?!?!

Maybe he's gone to 97% Lean?