Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Iorek wrote:People are taking this thread a lot more seriously that I imagined. Behold the Power of Dakka, I guess.

Like I said before, I'm just going to play 5th for a while and see how it goes. If I have fun, then it's a success. Any other metric is meaningless to me.

here IOREK, I will use the power of Dakka icons to return this thread to its rightfully place


5th Edition is the end of the World!
All my armies are useless!
They nerfed vehicles!
They nerfed troops!
Troops as scoring units? What were they thinking?
Who is Jervis and does he really have a son?
Why does Phil Kelly look like the kid I will meet at the door with a Beretta I happened to be "cleaning" when he comes to pick up my then teenage daughter?
How come my demons can't assault after deepstrike but teminators can shoot? THATS NOT FAIR!
How come I never win at tournaments when I bring my fluffy all troop Kroot mercs?
How come my marines can't have baneblades and Shokk Attack Guns? We're the masters of the freeking universe-whats the deal?

And lastly, Ramming? my predators will be pwoned by Lemans. ITS NOT FAIR!!!

jfrazell wrote:

here IOREK, I will use the power of Dakka icons to return this thread to its rightfully place


5th Edition is the end of the World!
All my armies are useless!
They nerfed vehicles!
They nerfed troops!
Troops as scoring units? What were they thinking?
Who is Jervis and does he really have a son?
Why does Phil Kelly look like the kid I will meet at the door with a Beretta I happened to be "cleaning" when he comes to pick up my then teenage daughter?
How come my demons can't assault after deepstrike but teminators can shoot? THATS NOT FAIR!
How come I never win at tournaments when I bring my fluffy all troop Kroot mercs?
How come my marines can't have baneblades and Shokk Attack Guns? We're the masters of the freeking universe-whats the deal?

And lastly, Ramming? my predators will be pwoned by Lemans. ITS NOT FAIR!!!

All of this can be fixed with APOCALYPSE!1!!1!!ELEVENTYONE!

jfrazell wrote:

Iorek wrote:People are taking this thread a lot more seriously that I imagined. Behold the Power of Dakka, I guess.

Like I said before, I'm just going to play 5th for a while and see how it goes. If I have fun, then it's a success. Any other metric is meaningless to me.

here IOREK, I will use the power of Dakka icons to return this thread to its rightfully place


5th Edition is the end of the World!
All my armies are useless!
They nerfed vehicles!
They nerfed troops!
Troops as scoring units? What were they thinking?
Who is Jervis and does he really have a son?
Why does Phil Kelly look like the kid I will meet at the door with a Beretta I happened to be "cleaning" when he comes to pick up my then teenage daughter?
How come my demons can't assault after deepstrike but teminators can shoot? THATS NOT FAIR!
How come I never win at tournaments when I bring my fluffy all troop Kroot mercs?
How come my marines can't have baneblades and Shokk Attack Guns? We're the masters of the freeking universe-whats the deal?

And lastly, Ramming? my predators will be pwoned by Lemans. ITS NOT FAIR!!!

Oye, is this guy meshuggener or what?

5th. edition killed my Tyranids I am gonna... wait did it?

So far I've played 5th edition with orks, marines and tau. Overall the game is the same. I think I like the deployment changes the most, though overall it seems like things move much faster than in 4th. By the way, outflanking is painful and will definitely add a new element of strategy to the game.

the only problem i see is that defensive weapons are different within the armies. For Eldar, S6 is defensive, for Space Marines and Tau, S5 would cut it. For Imperials, it could be S4 i guess. The Imperial gear always struck me a rather lumbering, so no "scoop and shoot"...

Greets
Schepp himself

Actually thats a worthy point-assign "defensive" to the actual weapon system or specificc race. Defensive still functions, but its effective value changes. Good idea-too bad.

This does annoy me about the eldar. I loved it as they could be comprised as a mother of a shooty list and I liked the concept of not relying on low AP but sheer weight of fire to overcome things. This really crimps that (even wave serpents which I'd proffer was not what people were annoyed about).

How about they just include whether or not a weapon is "defensive" in the army list section. For example:

Rhinos: Both Storm Bolters are Defensive

Chimeras: Hull mounted Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter/Heavy Stubber are Defensive

Falcons: Underslung twin linked Shurikun Catapults/Cannons are Defensive

Trukks: Big Shootas are Defensive

etc.

I know, I know. Just let your minds boggle for a minute.

That would mean they'd have to actually read the old Codices and make decisions instead of just focusing on new stuff.

The old codices will be set in stone for a longer period than the main rules. If that sounds like something they'd do on Bizarro World, you am right.

stonefox wrote:Since I'm making a bunch of dave taylor copycat IG, I actually look forward to making a bunch of flamethrower+HB squads. I'm kidding myself when I think the flamethrower will actually do anything but the thought is nice.

Hey never under estimate them IG flamers stonefox! I had my Smurf friend DS a 5 man termie squad right next to a 5 man command squad of IG, all 4 guardsmen armed with flamers...I killed 3 of his termies! albeit I did good with the wounding rolls, he did even better with 3/4 1's for his saves.

My biggest complaint about 5th edition?

It makes Apocalypse look fast.

My second is, I probably won't be able to play any of the 'I R BAD' folks before 4th goes away and they'll blame the spanking on 5th.

Stupid 5th, taking all my glory.

The Power Cosmic wrote:How about they just include whether or not a weapon is "defensive" in the army list section. For example:

Rhinos: Both Storm Bolters are Defensive

Chimeras: Hull mounted Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter/Heavy Stubber are Defensive

Falcons: Underslung twin linked Shurikun Catapults/Cannons are Defensive

Trukks: Big Shootas are Defensive

etc.

I know, I know. Just let your minds boggle for a minute.

sounds smart.

Skimmers block LoS again. good stuff.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oye, is this guy meshuggener or what?

Oy is Jewish*. Oye is Spanish.

Easy mistake, but I'm both, so I can't let it go.





*Or Yiddish, whatever. Part of being an American Jew is not caring about your heritage once your Bar Mitzvah's done and the checks have all rolled in.

Dead Horse wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oye, is this guy meshuggener or what?

Oy is Jewish*. Oye is Spanish.

Easy mistake, but I'm both, so I can't let it go.

*Or Yiddish, whatever. Part of being an American Jew is not caring about your heritage once your Bar Mitzvah's done and the checks have all rolled in.

Oh, dead horse, you just keep on beating that subject don't you?

Get it? Get it? Ah-ha!

syr8766 wrote:

Dead Horse wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oye, is this guy meshuggener or what?

Oy is Jewish*. Oye is Spanish.

Easy mistake, but I'm both, so I can't let it go.

*Or Yiddish, whatever. Part of being an American Jew is not caring about your heritage once your Bar Mitzvah's done and the checks have all rolled in.

Oh, dead horse, you just keep on beating that subject don't you?

At least it wasn't meat.

I'm not Jewish, but I'm from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn, so I'm like honorary.

This means I only know how to speak the lingo, but I was never taught the proper way to write it; so technically it's all kosher.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I'm not Jewish, but I'm from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn, so I'm like honorary.

This means I only know how to speak the lingo, but I was never taught the proper way to write it; so technically it's all kosher.

That all depends on how we kill you.

That's a joke people. A quote from Monty Python even. Just sayin'.

syr8766 wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I'm not Jewish, but I'm from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn, so I'm like honorary.

This means I only know how to speak the lingo, but I was never taught the proper way to write it; so technically it's all kosher.

That all depends on how we kill you.

That's a joke people. A quote from Monty Python even. Just sayin'.

Point taken.

Honestly though, my honorary Jewishness was confirmed by a Rabbi at the age of 5. Granted at the time I didn't know Matza from a Moyle, but I knew that if you wanted a good Pastrami on Rye you went to a certain deil two blocks over.

According to my parents the Rabbi said "Meh, close enough - he's in."

I too claim honorary Jew status, as not only have I had a Rabbi give the blessing at my wedding (The great and eloquent SYR8766 himself), but I was sent a membership card to the "World Jewish Congress" after donating to the Simon Wiesenthal (sp?) Center when I graduated college.

So Shalom biyatch

The Power Cosmic wrote:How about they just include whether or not a weapon is "defensive" in the army list section. For example:

Rhinos: Both Storm Bolters are Defensive

Chimeras: Hull mounted Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter/Heavy Stubber are Defensive

Falcons: Underslung twin linked Shurikun Catapults/Cannons are Defensive

Trukks: Big Shootas are Defensive

etc.

I know, I know. Just let your minds boggle for a minute.

It seems pretty clear that GW has changed their concept of what a defensive weapon is in the new edition. They obviously don't want weapons like Heavy Bolters, Shuriken Cannons and Big Shootas to be a defensive weapon.

Whether you agree with it or not (and its clear that several people don't) they apparently want to emphasize that vehicles which stay still have a better ability to fire their weapons than those vehicles which move.

Given that Troops seem to be the new focus of the game and all of these previous 'defensive' weapons tend to be troop killers perhaps they want to make players controlling vehicles make choices about how they want their vehicle to perform.


I, for one, will wait to play the game until I render my judgement about the change in defensive weaponry status. With the reduction in AT weapons in the new codices, the new vehicle damage table and the ability for vehicles to have cover saves the balance of power regarding vehicles has definitely been altered. Removing their ability to fire multiple weapons with a Strength higher than 4 may be needed to keep them at their current points value.

Where's BenlAllen when we need him? His GF from a few years back was applying to rabbinic school, IIRC. Pretty soon we'll have enough to make a minyan. Keinahurra!

Whitescar wrote:I too claim honorary Jew status, as not only have I had a Rabbi give the blessing at my wedding (The great and eloquent SYR8766 himself), but I was sent a membership card to the "World Jewish Congress" after donating to the Simon Wiesenthal (sp?) Center when I graduated college.

So Shalom biyatch

Well in addition to the Pastrami confirmation I've also seen Fiddler on the Roof like 50 times!

So Shhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllooooooooooooooom right back at ya!

Oy, I'm one shickered gentile right now.

yakface wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:How about they just include whether or not a weapon is "defensive" in the army list section. For example:

Rhinos: Both Storm Bolters are Defensive

Chimeras: Hull mounted Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter/Heavy Stubber are Defensive

Falcons: Underslung twin linked Shurikun Catapults/Cannons are Defensive

Trukks: Big Shootas are Defensive

etc.

I know, I know. Just let your minds boggle for a minute.

It seems pretty clear that GW has changed their concept of what a defensive weapon is in the new edition. They obviously don't want weapons like Heavy Bolters, Shuriken Cannons and Big Shootas to be a defensive weapon.

Whether you agree with it or not (and its clear that several people don't) they apparently want to emphasize that vehicles which stay still have a better ability to fire their weapons than those vehicles which move.

Given that Troops seem to be the new focus of the game and all of these previous 'defensive' weapons tend to be troop killers perhaps they want to make players controlling vehicles make choices about how they want their vehicle to perform.


I, for one, will wait to play the game until I render my judgement about the change in defensive weaponry status. With the reduction in AT weapons in the new codices, the new vehicle damage table and the ability for vehicles to have cover saves the balance of power regarding vehicles has definitely been altered. Removing their ability to fire multiple weapons with a Strength higher than 4 may be needed to keep them at their current points value.

Trying to get back on topic to 5th (was that even the topic?), I'd like to think that what the Developers want to see is the game be a bloody back and forth struggle for both sides. While at the same time, they want it to be about what the armies are supposed to be made of: Troops.

Right now they look at the game and in the majority of circumstances of "broken" armies, you're looking at just about everything except troops doing the hard work. Super Fex's, Heavy Skimmer Tanks, Elite heavy infantry, etc. Very rarely (in fact generally in the case of Orks and somewhat Chaos, which are both supposedly 5th ed enabled dex's) will you see the Troops be the strongest thing in the list. Sure Marines can get by with lots of Troops and do well with either Pods or Min/Max, but in both cases it's something that was being abused in the unit entry, not so much the actual troop itself.

Most games with higher end armies revolve around having stuff that just flat out refuses to die most of the time, or in some few cases, so much stuff on the table that you can't kill it all in 6 turns.

I'm being cautiously optimistic about 5th, if for nothing else than it'll change the balance dynamic of the game, which right now really does revolve around the lists than can put down the super units that just refuse to die when played right.

yakface wrote:With the reduction in AT weapons in the new codices, the new vehicle damage table and the ability for vehicles to have cover saves the balance of power regarding vehicles has definitely been altered. Removing their ability to fire multiple weapons with a Strength higher than 4 may be needed to keep them at their current points value.

It's scary how much this mentality makes sense, Yak, but I'd like to offer the argument that what tanks do for their points is generally not congruent to the same number of points in an infantry squad tasked with the same role. While they have increased the potential for tanks to survive, they haven't done so by much. In a game where enough people complain about gunlines, you'd think they'd want to encourage vehicle movement.

Ah well... we'll see what comes. I'm just waiting to see how guard shape up. I'd like to shelve my CSM and Eldar for a while and still have a reasonable chance of being competitive.


oh yeah...
*insert sarcastic kvetch here*

I just want honest to goodness good rules that dont insult the players of any age strata. Not to be patronized.

Saying that rules in 5th ed are "better than 4th ed" or "getting better all of the time" is like gold plating a fething turd.

Its still a turd. It still stinks up the place.

I am so pissed about th rules because I really want this game and GW to be successful, but they seem to be almost too...stubborn to do that.

Since I have only seen the 5th ed PDF, and not the actual rulebook, I will reserve the "ultimate death crotch punch" until then.

But my faith is slim because GW has QUITE a track record.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So Shhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllooooooooooooooom right back at ya!

dear lord that is funny.

Hellfury wrote:I just want honest to goodness good rules that dont insult the players of any age strata. Not to be patronized.

Saying that rules in 5th ed are "better than 4th ed" or "getting better all of the time" is like gold plating a fething turd.

Its still a turd. It still stinks up the place.

I am so pissed about th rules because I really want this game and GW to be successful, but they seem to be almost too...stubborn to do that.

Since I have only seen the 5th ed PDF, and not the actual rulebook, I will reserve the "ultimate death crotch punch" until then.

But my faith is slim because GW has QUITE a track record.

Question:

Did you ever like the GAME of 40K? Because if so I'd be interested to hear about how the rules now are worse than back then. I mean specifically. How were those old games of 40K (rules-wise) fun for you but they're not now.

Blackheart666, I keep deleting your posts because they are trolling with no value to the thread. If you continue to troll, you will recieve a temporary suspension from Dakka.

Thank you.

I think it comes down to faith in GW for me. Or rather the lack of it.

GW have a track record of taking a basic good idea and totally ballsing it up through either ineptitude or overriding commercial considerations.

After 20 years when they still haven't got the game working properly, what are the chances this time around? Slim, I'd say judging from past experience. Jervisisation, for me, is actually a step in the right direction. But what is really needed is a rewrite from the ground up. Which just won't ever happen.

I'd take a £50 punt at a game on the offchance of it being a good 'un. Unfortunately 40k will require me to punt considerably more than £50 to give it a proper whirl (can't see 5th ed. being worth playing at below 1000-1500 points), with poor odds...

Compare that to punting £25 on a starter set for Warmachine and getting hooked from the get-go. Or AT-43 which also saw me buy in and is now available for £26 for Op. Damocles.

Maybe if I liked Spase Marienz (hurr), but I don't. I want IG. Or Tau. Or even DE. And just possibly Ordo Malleus.

And so when are the Kvetch coming to 40k then? (http://www.123exp-science.com/t/01551216979/)