Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

High Elves: SoA does not work if a unit is charged in the flank or rear, Star Dragons take an additional Hero Slot

Vampire Counts: Get rid of Lord of the Dead, Summon Ghouls, Either Ditch Regen Banner or lower it's price and make it 1) One use only, or 2) a bound spell. Possibly raise ghouls by a point

Daemons - I honestly have no idea. Some suggestions: Special Characters become opponent's permission again (Fateweaver, Blue Scribes and Masque especially)... Flamers become 0-1 or have S3 shots

Uhm, do they all really need re-balancing?
Yeah, the Star Dragon's bad news, but a tweaked out Lord on a Star Dragon will run around 650'ish points. My brother's only fielded it once and in a 3000 pt game which is much larger than a typical tournament game. Even so, the thing is a 650 point bullseye for cannons. Also, it's been establish that ASF isn't ALL that impervious. Hell, anything Toughness 4 or better with a decent armor save will walk straight through all those wussy strength 3 spears. Also, with a few exceptions, those units rarely get to go first in Initiative outside of the charge turn, so it's not a horrible disadvantage. As far as Swordmasters and White Lions? CR them off the table with a large unit or smash them with a chariot. Phoenix Guard are a hard unit, but they don't really have much punch, so they're pretty much a tarpit to either avoid or to throw another tarpit against. If a mage is hidden in there, charge the unit with a mage hunter, pour all the attacks on the mage then voluntarily break and hope you outrun the unit. It's not the best tactic, but if it kills the mage, then everything else is gravy. The only unit that leaves is heavy calvary, and every army has an answer to that in one form or another. This leaves heroes, which are supposed to be tough nuts to crack and that's why they're expensive. A large number of heroes equates to a small army that can be easily overwhelmed if not used properly.
As far as Vampire Counts, I don't know much about them, but the few people I've played have said taht as long as you don't ignore units like Blood Knights and you have solid magic defense and worthwhile troops it'll be a very hard fight regardless.
I definitely haven't seen anyone around my area play Daemons, unfortunately. So, I can't really comment on them. A lot of their special characters' abilities do reek of cheese, though..

Honestly, posts like this translate into, "Waaaaaaaahhh!!!" to me.

Too many people immediately resort to trying to 'fix' something, rather than think of a way to deal with it. Case in point: 6th Edition Steam Tank. All I heard on this forum was, "Waaaaaaaahhh!!!", but on the table people were figuring out ways to beat it (and the WOOD ELVES did the most consistent job of it, by the way).

Instead of trying to 'fix' something that just came out, suck it up and deal with it. Try adjusting your tactics a little to deal with things you haven't seen before.

...Or maybe you'd rather go play Candyland?

Sounds like a bunch of whining over the most inane things(especially over a 500+ point character that already takes up a Lord and Hero choice).

Oh, and having used the Masque, she's hardly as good on field as she reads on paper.

Sorry, dumbuket, but I'm gonna add to the consensus.

The only thing that really needs fixing are missles that roll an artillery dice worth of hits. Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Sallie. And your little friends hiding behind that organ gun over there.

fellblade wrote:The only thing that really needs fixing are missles that roll an artillery dice worth of hits. Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Sallie. And your little friends hiding behind that organ gun over there.

Well, now that they've 'fixed' the Helblaster, those two seem overpowered. But nobody complained before... Well, they complained about the Helblaster, but people still dealt with it (when it didn't blow up on its own, mind you), and didn't cimplain about the others so much.

/ramble

Brokenness is in the eye of the beholder.

fellblade wrote:Brokenness is in the eye of the beholder.

Amen brother! It is broken only if you cannot be creative enough with your stratigy to do anything about it.

The only things in WHFB that need fixing are those books that have not been brought up to the current 7th edition standards. Once they have been brought to that level then I feel the playing field will be level.

There always will be one book that is stronger than many other but there are ways to defeat it. Unlike 40k, WHFB relies more on strategy and tactics to win rather than broken rules and a lot of dice.

Every 7th edition book has potential for a super nasty list but its up to you the player to figure out how to build a solidly well rounded list to defeat 99% of the lists out there. Its possible with every army to do that (With the Exception being Ogres, they are the suck!!!).

I have no idea why you are complaining. I have beaten all three of these armies with Dwarfs.

2 with a massacre and 1 with a solid victory. Against opponenets that I feel are good players.

What army are you playing that you are having that much difficulty with them?

Maybe we can help you re-adjust your amy to improve your chances.

What did the daemon player bring cause you sure didn't beat either an all nurgle or all tzeentch army with dwarves

PapaSmurf

Nurgle Player with Papa Nurgle 4 Beasts and 3 Heralds with large units of bearers.

Flaming War Machines all around please.

Cannon with Master engineer dropped big papa in two turns. Bolt throwers and Grudges tagged up the beasts and Bearer units. And when they got closed instead of shooting into the ranks the Bolt Throwers shoot down the ranks in cross fire

By the time he got into combat he had lost big papa, 3/4 of the beast 1 Herald (Str 8 Grudge) and almost half of each of his bearer units.

Thorek slowed them down.

The trouble with the 3 armies mentioned is that each of them is quite 'exotic' for Warhammer.

Neither Daemons or Undead ever have to worry about Psychology, or breaking from combat. This presents a very different tactical challenge to armies that do.

High Elves provide yet another challenge. As they will strike first, more or less regardless, your manouvers factor in differently, and you need to look at overwhelming his small but punchy army.

All have their weaknesses. Undead troops, barring Blood Knights, for their cost, generally have trouble in combat. They tend to *Rely* on Fear and Outnumbering to win. Yet they can replenish their ranks with a couple of successful Magic phases. The trick I find is not so much knowning how, but when to shutdown his Magic Phase. Time it right, usually when combats are about to begin, and you will have a far easier time, and with any luck, will be in a position to finally cause casualties far faster than he can replace them.

Daemons. Well, haven't played against them, so this is all theory... But for me, I think Character Assasination is the first thing to consider. Spells, Items, Weapons that can isolate and target them wherever they are is the key to me. Likewise, he is probably going to have a small army, so jump his units enmasse. Get Flank Charges in where you can, anything to swing the combat result in your favour.

High Elves. Shoot his best unit. A 15 Swordmaster dies to an Arrow just as easily as a weedy 4 point Goblin. Take advantage of this. Also, try to tie up his best unit or slow them down some way. Do your best to disrupt his line. Taking High Elves on piecemeal works wonder.

Check the UK GT results for warhammer and get back to me on Daemons not being broken.

The High Elves fix is one of the dumbest proposed ideas I've ever seen. One high elf spearman with shield costs 11 points, so that's S3, T3, WS5 and a 5+ save. The new Warriors of Chaos with shields cost 16 points and are S4, T4, WS5, A2, 2+ save.

Point is, high elves need always strikes first, it should be a static ability that can't be removed.
Even fluff-wise, it balances out. Where as lesser races have been learning war, the elves have been practicing for thousands upon thousands of years.

It's good when you're talking about a unit with survivability, but playing high elves generally means losing at least one of those hundred point units every turn to some shooting...

fellblade wrote:Sorry, dumbuket, but I'm gonna add to the consensus.

The only thing that really needs fixing are missles that roll an artillery dice worth of hits. Yeah, I'm lookin' at you, Sallie. And your little friends hiding behind that organ gun over there.

If your sallies ate as many skinks as mine did, you wouldn't think they were that powerful.

I noticed a lot of VC players come out and defend the counts. lol... you gotta admit, they are not balanced to the rest of the armies.

But I do agree with you all, however, that this isn't a flaw... this is a challenge. If you got someone that plays Vampires, you gotta step up your game. Not change the rules. I beat vamps with Ogres, my gf beat them with Dwarfs, and my friend beat them with Dark Elves. It's not a secret what the vampires are capable of, therefore position yourself, take the items/units you need to get the job done.

some of us don't have the luxury of tailoring our lists to our opponents before each game

dumbuket wrote:some of us don't have the luxury of tailoring our lists to our opponents before each game

What's your point? If you're in a lague format, you likely know your opponents and should prepare accordingly. If you're going to a tournament, then you should be prepared for anything. List construction is not he be-all-end-all of the game like it is in 40k. Even the most abusive, min-maxed, power-gamered army will suck if fielded by an idiot. If you can't out-power your opponent, out-think him. If you're unwilling to do THAT, you're playing the wrong game.

dumbuket wrote:some of us don't have the luxury of tailoring our lists to our opponents before each game

Invest in a codex, what do you want me to tell ya?

You can deploy differently, equip differently, change unit sizes... the possibilities are endless. Think outside the box. No one army setup is going to beat everything. You need to be a better general. That's the point of this game.

LuckyNumbrXIII wrote:

dumbuket wrote:some of us don't have the luxury of tailoring our lists to our opponents before each game

Invest in a codex, what do you want me to tell ya?

You can deploy differently, equip differently, change unit sizes... the possibilities are endless. Think outside the box. No one army setup is going to beat everything. You need to be a better general. That's the point of this game.

Sir,

He meant if he was in a tourney - you can't change your list. Certain armies have advantages over others even before the game starts, but that's why we It adds that whole, well he runs VC But karma got him back by rolling to hit and for LD after losing a combat... It adds that randomness..

As far as being a better general, yes it does have something to do with it, but also if you come up against an army that is your foil to begin with - there is nothing you can do sometimes but hope he rolls bad, you roll good, and he makes bone-headed mistakes.

My point, there will ALWAYS be a list or an army that stacks up well vs. your list/army just as there will ALWAYS be armies that will stack up well vs. them... Nothing to about...

I like shooty bitz and dragons, so I go HE, but if my opponent runs a magic heavy VC, I know I get rolled on in the magic phase beacuse I took a Dragon mage instead of 2 lvl 2 mages 2 scrolls etc... But he may go miscast and I will laugh at him.

I don't see what the big deal is, yes DoC, VC, and even high elves (to a lesser extent) are very very good - but so are DE (but the original poster didn't mention them), Brets can be to the extreme, again the OP made no mention, Mortals of Chaos can take that Lord MOT on a Chaos Dragon w/ a 3+ save vs shooting combo, etc...

See every list can make , all you need to do is follow what was all said and posted before:

If you go to a tourney - expect to face these things and bring a list that could be balanced vs. all opponents

If you play for fun - try new units, outthink your opponent, tool your list to fight that 1 off battle

The OP was made in June, before Dark Elves were released. Then a bunch of no-nothing knuckle heads came out of the woodowork to necro the thread and shout "lern 2 play", "there is no cheese".

The irony is, in the four months since I posted this thread, I've started a Dark Elf army and I've had few problems with any of the above lists. I still think Demons are broken, High Elves are a sloppy book, and a VC general with a vague idea of how his list works is at an inordinate advantage. Dark Elves are just one of the few armies that happen to have the tools to deal with these crazy new lists.

Ironic how you made this post abput "balancing" armies, but now you play one of the cheesiest armies ever. seriously! I played a DE army the other day that had a unit of cold ones with a bsb. it had two magic banners, one gave them ASF, and the other gave them all an extra attack. that's pretty cheesy, combining ASF with hatred, and every model will get atleast 5 strength 4 attacks!!! (cold one knight gets one I think, maybe two, and the cold one gets two, and they are both stength 4 I believe., so with the banner the knight would get two and the cold ones would get three). then the bsb gets 6 attacks. and ALL of those can re-roll their misses in the first round of combat. WOW. ahh, but not to worry, I have found ways to deal with this already, the easiest being Vauls Unmaking with Teclis, and another would be impact hits from a stegadon.

Vauls Unmaking with Teclis

Fighting cheese with cheese, eh? I have to admit, though: I never thought of using the Banner of Hag Graef on Cold One Knights...

sometimes the only way to fight cheese is with cheese. i recently realized this as this kind of combo is typical for my group. I usually try not to use special characters, and even stayed away from the Star Dragon list, but I have recently gotten tired of losing so much, I didn't lose all the time, but i'm notorious for bad rolls. So I ddecided I would try fighting cheese with cheese for now. and so far, it's been fun. Star Dragon took care of brettonia, and Teclis will soon take care of the Dark Elves. And i LOVE the standard of balance against them. say good bye to Hatred when you fight my Sword Masters. HA!

Plus if you both have cheese lists the game is likley to be very close. At least thats my experience. Plus different armies cheese builds are usually extremely different as they always involve the things which make that army unique to a greater degree than a balanced list, so makes for a varied playing field.

@Arion: Appearently you got beaten so bad by the Dark Elves that you math skills got damaged. Cold One Kn1ghts have one (1) attack apeice and one (1) attack from the cold one. The Hydra Banner gives one (1) additional attack to each model in the unit, including their mount, on the first round of combat only. So that Knight Unit had 4 attacks from the BSB, 11 attacks from Knights (assuming champion) and 12 attacks from cold ones. (Cold ones have not had 2 attacks in almost a decade). This Unit cost over 430 points (at minium) for six (6) toughness three models. If you were playing high elves you have either the same or greater initiative then they do so it is roll of on who gets to go first. You are seriuosly blowing that unit out of proportions. Its not like they are Dragon Princes with 2 attacks base and always strike first on every unit.

And if you start playing the "My special Character will destroy your entire army" battle, just remeber: Teclis had better do everything on turn 1, because on turn 2 Shadowblade will end his day.

well, I wasn;t playing High elves at the time. I was playing Lizards, so you can imagine my fear when I got the charge with my kroxigors and he got to attack first with 27 str 4 attacks. and actually hos masters attacks were str 6. so i didn;t even touch him. But this was the point. everything can be defeated if you use some imagination and tactics. I know teclis dies easy, so for every one that cmplains about him, just shoot him or get him in combat. no armor and no ward makes a 475pt character go down in flames. I haven't played against daemons, but I'm sure they have their weakness, and I have never lost to VC with Lizards, HE or Dwarfs. just stop complaining and start trying to think.

On that point you are correct. Every army has these super hammer units, and every new army to come out will get them. Be prepared to deal with them. Go buy the army books. Find the most absurd combination you can put together, expect to see it on the table, then find the counter.

To complain about every army's one big hitter is just crybaby tactics. Most of these units are point heavy, rely on the addition of a hero, and more than one magic item. All of these are links in a chain that can be broken individualy that make the entire unit not work.

Every weekend I go to my FLGS and try to play against as many different armies and builds as possible. When people ask me if I want a softball pitch or the balls-out badass list, I say bring your worst. Once you get past the basics of the game, you don't improve your game by playing only easy list. The rule is if it is allowed by the army book, it is fairgame on the table. I am not going to pull any punches and I expect my opponent to throw the hardest right hook he can.

AMEN!