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The last thread was derailed by a few people, so we're starting a new one.

The intent of this thread is to discuss that GW has stated it will combine Alien Hunters, Witch Hunters, and Daemonhunters while incorporating all the chamber militant in a single book.

The facts:
- that such a book should comprehensively and equally cover the Inquisition, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Sisters of Battles in different army list configurations
- that such a book should stand uniquely on its own with out requiring other codices and units from other codices beyond those directly covered in Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter; in other words no inducted units from Codex: SM or Codex: IG.

Topics for discussion:
- what must GW do to achieve such a list, so that it is the same size of a standard codex?
- which units are cross compatible and should be common to all configuration of army list?
- which units options should be dependent on commanders?
- with limited choices for the Deathwatch, relative to the Sister of Battle and Grey Knights, what additions are both fluff wise appropriate for the Deathwatch while adding to their distinction?
- what would the special character selections be like?



We'll start by using a variation of Marik's list that I modified as a jumping off point:

===HQ===
0-1 Inquisitor (Orbital Strike, Seal of Ordo)
-Seal of Ordo Xenos: Gains “Preferred Enemy” against Xenos races. May take Xenos Mercenaries. May take (TBD) in retinue.
-Seal of Ordo Malleus: Gains “Preferred Enemy” against daemonic units. May take Daemonhosts. May take “the hierophant” and “the Mystic” in retinue.
-Seal of Ordo Hereticus: Gains “Preferred Enemy” against units with psyker powers. Gain access Sanction Psyker. May take “the Penitent” and “the Chirurgeon” in retinue.

0-1 Grey Knight Hero
0-1 Deathwatch Hero
0-1 Battle Sister Heroine
0-5 Priests
- Do not take up a slot on the force organization chart.

===ELITES===
Interrogator

0-1 Officio Assassinorum Operative
- Must have an Interrogator or Inquisitor present in your army to use.

Death-cult Assassin
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.

0-1 Radical Squad
- Must have an Inquisitor present in your army to use.
- Daemonhosts: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Daemonhunter. If you take Daemonhosts you may not take any Grey Knight units.
- Sanctioned Psykers: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Witch Hunter. If you take Sanctioned Psykers you may not take any Battle Sister units.
- Xenos Mercenaries: Requires your Inquisitor Lord to have Seal of the Alien Hunter. If you take a Xenos Mercenaries you may not take any Deathwatch units.

Grey Knights
- Count as Troops if you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- If you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Grey Knights to Grey Knight Purgation Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.

Grey Knight Veterans
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Grey Knight Terminators.

Deathwatch Kill Team
- Count as Troops if you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- If you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army, you may upgrade squads of Deathwatch Kill Teams to Deathwatch Annihilus Squads. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.

Deathwatch Centurions
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.
- May be upgraded to Deathwatch Terminators.

Battle Sisters
- Count as Troops if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- If you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army, you may upgrade squads of Battle Sisters to Battle Sister Retributors. These squads count as Heavy Support choices.

Battle Sister Celestines
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.
- May be upgraded to Battle Sister Seraphim.

===TROOPS===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

===FAST ATTACK===
Arco-flagellants [Need some addition to make “fast”]
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army. [Fleet of Foot]

0-1 Sisters Repentia [Need some addition to make “fast” or you might make a troop choice][/b]
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in the army.

Deathwatch Landspeeder (Deathwatch should have a unique vehicle and a fast attack choice, so this kills two birds with one stone)
- Cannot be taken unless you have a Deathwatch Hero in your army.

===HEAVY SUPPORT===
Land Raider (always available)
- May be upgraded to Land Raider Redeemer or Land Raider Crusader

Penitent Engine
- May only be taken if you have a Priest present in the army.

Dreadnought
- May only be taken if you have a Grey Knight Hero in your army.

Exorcist
- May only be taken if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army.

===TRANSPORT===
Chimera
Rhino
Razorback
- May be upgrade to an Immolator if you have a Battle Sister Heroine in your army

===Special Character===
Inq. Lord Coteaz (Ordo Malleus)
Brother Captain Stern (Grey Knights)

Inq Lord Karamazov (Ordo Hereticus)
St. Celestine (Sisters of Battle)

(An Adeptus Mechanicus character that goes collecting alien tech)
(A Deathwatch Captain, some sort of background where his chapter was wiped out so he is permanently Deathwatch)
Inq. Lord Cryptman (has pet tyranids)?

I like the permanant Deathwatch Captain. That's a clever and evocative idea. Sent my mind a'spinning the moment I read it.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the permanant Deathwatch Captain. That's a clever and evocative idea. Sent my mind a'spinning the moment I read it.

BYE

It would make him a unique sort of character and distinguish him from the generic Deathwatch commander.
"Captain Phoenix the Living Damned"... "Last survivor of the Fire Hawks, who later became known as the Legion of the Damned".
Give him the whole archetype as being the sole survivor of countless missions that while successful everyone around him died. Give him "eternal warrior"

Call it self indulgent but the idea was based on a Deathwatch Marine character I used in "Inquisitor."

aka_mythos wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like the permanant Deathwatch Captain. That's a clever and evocative idea. Sent my mind a'spinning the moment I read it.

BYE

It would make him a unique sort of character and distinguish him from the generic Deathwatch commander.
"Captain Phoenix the Living Damned"... "Last survivor of the Fire Hawks, who later became known as the Legion of the Damned".
Give him the whole archetype as being the sole survivor of countless missions that while successful everyone around him died. Give him "eternal warrior"

Call it self indulgent but the idea was based on a Deathwatch Marine character I used in "Inquisitor."

Very nice!

I like it, and since you brought it up (from your own dark past no less!), why not go with it as you've stated!

Captain Phoenix is a bit ham handed, even for GW, though I like the Fire Hawks origin for him...

Do we know how long after they were created that the Firehawks vanished?

I ask because I like the idea of a Marine who ends up being the only one left from his Chapter because he's away on a Deathwatch tour when the rest of them are wiped out, but was there any time for that in the Firehawks' history?

And yeah, Phoenix is a big much. Even GW wouldn't be that blatant.

BYE

Alpharius wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:
It would make him a unique sort of character and distinguish him from the generic Deathwatch commander.
"Captain Phoenix the Living Damned"... "Last survivor of the Fire Hawks, who later became known as the Legion of the Damned".
Give him the whole archetype as being the sole survivor of countless missions that while successful everyone around him died. Give him "eternal warrior"

Call it self indulgent but the idea was based on a Deathwatch Marine character I used in "Inquisitor."

Very nice!

I like it, and since you brought it up (from your own dark past no less!), why not go with it as you've stated!

Captain Phoenix is a bit ham handed, even for GW, though I like the Fire Hawks origin for him...

It is quite ham handed... I never liked the name but it was what I originally came up with. The name Phoenix is also too much of an Eldar thing.

My character was armed with a meltagun and boltpistol, with a mono-molecular edged knife. Do you think that makes sense weapon wise or should it be more exotic?
HBMC had suggested before that a Combi-bolter where the special weapon isn't one shot only... that sounds like it could make for an interesting weapon to substitute for the meltagun and boltpistol.

What's a better name for this character?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Do we know how long after they were created that the Firehawks vanished?

I ask because I like the idea of a Marine who ends up being the only one left from his Chapter because he's away on a Deathwatch tour when the rest of them are wiped out, but was there any time for that in the Firehawks' history?

And yeah, Phoenix is a big much. Even GW wouldn't be that blatant.

BYE

Haha...Corax (latin for Raven) for Raven Guard... Ferrus Manus (Latin for Iron Hands) for the Iron Hands... there was a time GW was that blatant.

Firehawks were part of the 21st founding in the early M36 and vanished in 963.M41. So they were around for less than 5000 years. I think there was time.
Another fact the Firehawk's first major campaign was as participants in the war to stop an up rising Goge Vandire a member of the eccleisiarchy at the beginning of the Age of Apostasy. Creating a check on the ecclesiarchy was the impetus for the SoB's creation. In that war the Firehawks fought along side forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus (fluff wise a good in for when firhawks were first invited to join the Deathwatch). That occurred in the late part of the M36.

I preferred the other proposed inquisition codex plan. The HQs 'unlocking' units sounded fine, because the Chamber militants don't work together very often.
E.g. You must have a Malleus inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ to use GKs.

Sounds as if "The Last Man Standing from the Fire Hawks Chapter" could work perfectly!

Someone really ought to get GW's attention on this one, as it is seriously too cool not to use!

I like the combi-weapon that isn't just one shot too. (In fact, isn't that the way combi-weapons used to work, back in the day?)

Cheese Elemental wrote:I preferred the other proposed inquisition codex plan. The HQs 'unlocking' units sounded fine, because the Chamber militants don't work together very often.
E.g. You must have a Malleus inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ to use GKs.

I agree - am I right in thinking that the list above would allow you to build an army with Sisters, Grey Knights AND Deathwatch as your three Elites Choices?

This just wouldn't happen. The codex has to allow you to make an army of any one of the Chamber Militants, but it shouldn't allow you to combine them.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I preferred the other proposed inquisition codex plan. The HQs 'unlocking' units sounded fine, because the Chamber militants don't work together very often.
E.g. You must have a Malleus inquisitor or Grey Knight HQ to use GKs.

I agree - am I right in thinking that the list above would allow you to build an army with Sisters, Grey Knights AND Deathwatch as your three Elites Choices?

This just wouldn't happen. The codex has to allow you to make an army of any one of the Chamber Militants, but it shouldn't allow you to combine them.

The idea behind it is the fact that, though very rare the inquisition's chamber militants have worked together. Such as hunting a genestealer cult, which the DW would hunt because of the xenos threat but the SoB because of the psychic abomination they represent. Or if they were hunting a chaos cultist leader that is believed to be nearing daemonhood.

On the previous thread there was a strong belief that they should be available even in a limited capacity. Even though you get access to those units, they're only the most basic squad of each. It was a compromise between people who said they wanted a list for the Inquisition that could freely mix and match unrestrictedly and the people who wanted a unlocking system.

I prefer the unlocking.

I had tried to make the point that these specialized elite strike forces would NOT work together... but what we have above is pretty much where we left off in the discussion before we got interrupted and railroaded off topic. I think the next iteration of the list will be more restrictive but allow something... such as if you take a SoB and GK hero than you can mix, but where the trade off is a loss of the Inquisitors assets.

What are some thoughts on the area of mixed inquisition task forces?

I'm generally not that big on the idea of mixed Inq taskforces.

I can see the reason that, in exceptional circumstances, you would have a situation where both SoB and GK work together. Hell, in the situation you've suggested you could include a reason for Deathwatch to get involved, too.

But the GK aren't meant to get involved in EVERY Malleus Inquisitor's personal crusades, are they? They're the elite of the elite, not personal bodyguard for every Malleus out there.

What are the chances of a particular incident attracting the attention of three Inquisitors, all from different Ordos, who then all call on their own Chambers Militant (in some cases extremely rare in themselves), and receiving exactly the support they want?

However, making it legal to take an army like this would drastically increase the presence of these apparently 'exceptional' circumstances.

Having said that, maybe it fits in with GW's current strategies - for example, they currently seem to encourage people that ultra-rare Special Characters should be taken in all your armies, just like a regular HQ. [EDIT - Actually, I may start a thread about that...]

I prefer when (fluff-wise) incredibly rare units are (game-wise) exactly that...

I agree ArbitorIan... how would you feel if there were a special character that opened up a 0-1 option for one other chamber militant troop choice?

I like the idea, for quite rare troops choices. If, for example, you needed a special character to take Deathwatch terminators, I think you'd see this special character leading every Ordo Xenos army.

However, if the special character opened up a very specific unit, like a famous KillTeam that fought on Armageddon, and thus has lots of Ork-killing tactics, to the exclusion of anything else, then maybe there would be a balance??

Essentially, a Special Character should give an interesting flavour to the army he's included in. But if he makes the army much better, or much more tactically viable, then you're in danger of seeing him in every game...

Good job for taking the ball home and running away...

Anyhow "the facts" should be properly labeled as "the goals".

What I was saying was for the people who wanted a mixed force if there was a specific Inquisitor or someone who allows the army a 0-1 choice on a basic deathwatch killteam or a GK squad for say a SoB army.

In the same way SoB and GK specialize in fighting specific chaos threats the DW need to do the same, to the same extent and same degree with Xenos. My thought is that all DW would have preferred enemy against any Xenos that is a monstrous creature or has an invulnerable save (excluding daemons). This is because, as tempting as it maybe, the DW watch and hunt the worst of Xenos threats, leaving lesser ones for the basic SM and basic IG.

I see giving them preferred enemy or an equivalent to against all xenos armies would go too far. Even specific upgrades geared towards each xenos race would run the risk of going too far because you're always gonna take the anti-whatever option against that race effectively, making a DW effectively have a prefered enemy-everyone.

I do agree that a special character who opens up a specific deathwatch team with a hate of orks or other race would be a good way to have a little more character.

I do think the specific Hero opens up all the options of that chamber militant is a good way to go.

Told you it'd annoy him.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:Good job for taking the ball home and running away...

Anyhow "the facts" should be properly labeled as "the goals".

I started this thread in response to the mods locking the other thread.

For everyone else's benefit "the facts" have been labeled such based on interviews with GW design staff members at Gamesday events as to their intent with the Witch Hunters, Daemonhunters, and Alien Hunters.

This discussion is about making a codex that accomplishes what GW has stated is their intent.

Any further off topic and semantic arguments will be reported to the forum mods.

Dude, no need to get in a huff. GW states their intent on a lot of things, but GW also changes their mind a lot.

Anyhow, I think you need the option for Fighty Troops.

Also, why no DW Assault Marines?

I have a squad of Deathwatch Assault Marines, so I think they should be included.

Can you think of a good name for 'em Jonny-boy? We've got Centurions for Terminators, and, obviously, Kill-Teams for the Tac Squads. What should the Assault Squads be called?

Oh... right... he can't see my posts. Silly me!

BYE

According to the 40k Lexicanum's reporting of the Deathwatch novels, apparently there are cases of Marines being permanently assigned to the Deathwatch. From the sound of it, this is based on exemplary actions in battle rather than the unfortunate demise of the rest of his chapter. Case in point being one Captain Octavias of the Imperial Fists.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Octavias

I think assault troops are viable for Deathwatch, the important thing is too make sure we don't go too over the top with new units; three consideration:
-we shouldn't go too over the top with what they do
-they should fit in with the rest of the force
-they should fit fluff and core force concepts

I fear putting too much in for Deathwatch relative to the other two chamber militants. That said they should be in the same vein with Vanguard to the same degree the Deathwatch kill team is to the Sternguard. The next danger is in the fact kill teams can already take the full assortment of assault weapons which beyond jump packs reduces their uniqueness. Assuming there rules are only minimally changed the current DW killteam can deepstrike, which reduces the reason to take jump pack troops a bit. I like the DW kill team for the most part as is; so I don't think downgrading them to make an Assault squad more viable is an option. I think emphasizing something along the lines of sabotage or carrying placed charges like melta-bombs would be the most unique direction to go.

I think Deathwatch Perdition or Perditio Team?

Death By Monkeys wrote:According to the 40k Lexicanum's reporting of the Deathwatch novels, apparently there are cases of Marines being permanently assigned to the Deathwatch. From the sound of it, this is based on exemplary actions in battle rather than the unfortunate demise of the rest of his chapter. Case in point being one Captain Octavias of the Imperial Fists.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Octavias

I have never read the GW novels. Every time I've been standing in books stores and picked one up for a look I've regretted it. The syntax always left me wanting. I however will look into it for the sake of furthering this endevour.

Death by Monkeys, Have you read this particular series of novels? While I don't like the quality, I appreciate that there maybe some creative tid bits from them and information to expand our understanding.

The appeal and the idea of the last non-legion o' the damned marine of the Fire Hawks concept was less about whether marines get permanently assigned and more a thematic choice. The theme I refer to is the fact that Deathwatch (and the other inquisition members) live out real horror stories the most dangerous in the universe, so his character was intended to be representative of the loneliness of constantly being the last survivor. He is alone because his chapter died, in his past the marines on mission with him all died (no fault to him)... he's the archetype of the last survivor seen often in horror fiction. Ripley in Alien, Robert Neville in the Omega Man, George Taylor in Planet of the Apes. In the same vein resourceful with a take charge attitude. His experience helped him survive and he is driven by the mindset of "never again"... think about what Ripley becomes in Aliens (the second movie).

aka_mythos wrote:I have never read the GW novels. Every time I've been standing in books stores and picked one up for a look I've regretted it. The syntax always left me wanting. I however will look into it for the sake of furthering this endevour.

Death by Monkeys, Have you read this particular series of novels? While I don't like the quality, I appreciate that there maybe some creative tid bits from them and information to expand our understanding.

I haven't read the series and it's my understanding that they are, at best mediocre. On the tangent of GW novels, though, if you haven't tried Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts or Eisenhorn trilogy, I'd recommend those - if you have and didn't like them, then yeah, sadly, you're not going to find much of anything better in the Black Library stable.

aka_mythos wrote:The appeal and the idea of the last non-legion o' the damned marine of the Fire Hawks concept was less about whether marines get permanently assigned and more a thematic choice. The theme I refer to is the fact that Deathwatch (and the other inquisition members) live out real horror stories the most dangerous in the universe, so his character was intended to be representative of the loneliness of constantly being the last survivor. He is alone because his chapter died, in his past the marines on mission with him all died (no fault to him)... he's the archetype of the last survivor seen often in horror fiction. Ripley in Alien, Robert Neville in the Omega Man, George Taylor in Planet of the Apes. In the same vein resourceful with a take charge attitude. His experience helped him survive and he is driven by the mindset of "never again"... think about what Ripley becomes in Aliens (the second movie).

You're right - it would make for a particularly cool special character. I was mainly pointing out to readers of the thread that permanent positions among the Deathwatch, while rare, do occur.

The Eisenhorn trilogy is very good. I'm about half way through it, and it's a great look at the Inquisition.

It's also interesting to see the Deathwatch Marines in that split off into the various squads, so each Inquisitor will have a single DW Marine in his retinue.


As far as Deathwatch Squads go, as they are just Marines from other Chapters, rather than a unique chapter with a completely different organisational structure (ala Grey Knights), I think keeping them to the standard Codex structure would work - Kill Teams (Tacs), Annihilus (Dev), Centurion (Terminator) and something for Assault.

As to Deep Striking, I think that should be taken from Deathwatch. It's stepping on the toes of the Grey Knights far, far, far too much, and adds a bit of incentive to take Deathwatch Assaults and Terminators and use them in a teleportation ability.

As far as assault weapons. In my own DW squads I went out of my way to ensure that there were no power weapons/fists/lightning claws in any of the Kill Teams. The only places they show up is on Segeants, in my Command Squad (2 guys with Power Weapons) and my DW Assault Squad (2 guys with Power Weapons).

The original rules allows you to turn everyone into a 50 point Veteran with Lightning Claws, and really I think that served no purpose. The high-tech emphasis that I'd like to see on Deathwatch shouldn't just translate into 'they can all take power fists and lightning claws'. There needs to be more depth to it than that.

And the only thing I'd create for the Grey Knights (ducking to a different Chamber for a second) is the Purification Squad that we came up with. It's a small squad, 5 guys and a Justicar (called a Sanctifier in this unit), and they have Paraclete Charges (holy Meltabombs), can get an Incinerator (no psycannons), and have the psychic power 'Displacement'. Essentially they can teleport XD6" (although they must move the distance roll, no less, no more), and then can shoot/assault as normal.

They're not Terminators, it's only 6 guys so it's not game breaking, and if the Sanctifier fails his psychic test, the unit cannot move or assault that turn - only shoot.

Ever since we added them to our own Codex, the person in our group who plays pure Grey Knights always brings one. He swears by the unit, and they've done very well for him (then again he always has stupid luck with his GKs!! ).

BYE

I think for the basic Kill-team the assault weapons should remain but with a "Up to two veterans" added. This brings them down a bit and warrants the question "why take more than two veterans?"

The mention of Kill-teams that become experienced fighting a single Xenos threat became an appealing solution. If the entire squad is upgraded to veterans they can choose a Xenos race to have as a preferred enemy. What is a good point value on top of everything else for this upgrade? I'd like to avoid min-maxing veterans.

Get rid of Deep Strike from kill teams, since an assault squad can deepstrike, a Centurion Squad can deep strike... mobility is a theme of the DW. How about as an added upgrade option and incentive a all veteran kill team can upgrade to Infiltrator?

On your Grey Knight "Purification" squad if you make a transport required they can become the GK Fast Attack choice so that they have at least one option in each FOC slot.

How about something simple for the assault squad: Deathwatch Strike Team? They'll have all the assault weapon options, they'd also have the flamer and plasma pistol option... melta bombs... hmmm this is a toughy to make techy beyond the mundane. I'll admit this was one reason I steered clear of this for Deathwatch. They could have two handed power weapons?... I'm just throwing stuff out.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As to Deep Striking, I think that should be taken from Deathwatch. It's stepping on the toes of the Grey Knights far, far, far too much, and adds a bit of incentive to take Deathwatch Assaults and Terminators and use them in a teleportation ability.

I posted this in John's thread and I'll post it here, too - while DW deepstriking does impinge on the GK's abilities, I think it's perfectly reasonable (particularly from a fluff perspective) for them to be able to take Drop Pods.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:As to Deep Striking, I think that should be taken from Deathwatch. It's stepping on the toes of the Grey Knights far, far, far too much, and adds a bit of incentive to take Deathwatch Assaults and Terminators and use them in a teleportation ability.

I posted this in John's thread and I'll post it here, too - while DW deepstriking does impinge on the GK's abilities, I think it's perfectly reasonable (particularly from a fluff perspective) for them to be able to take Drop Pods.

I completely agree. It replaces a completely out of no where whatever you like deep strike with a deep strike that is actually represented.

Yeah, Drop Pods. No issue ther at all. Again, these are loads of guys coming from different Chapters. Most of them will be Codex Chapters, but none of them will be used to working with other people from other Chapters.

The best way for them to function as a team and achieve their objectives is to ensure that they are very similar to standard Codex designs.

To that end, Drop Pods makes perfect sense, as it's something that most if not all of them would be quite used to.

BYE

I started thinking about this as I was posting in the other Codex: Inquisition thread, but didn't convey it over there. There's been more discussion in that thread about each Ordo having their own quintessential weapons and it got me thinking about the character of each of the Ordos and their chambers militant. Here's what I came up with:

- Grey Knights - The GK are known for their psychic abilities and as psychic abilities in the 40k verse are commonly associated with magic, I see their character along those lines - consequently, they get psycannons, incinerators, force weapons, and teleportation. As I described in the other thread, I see this manifesting in something like GK dreads not getting access to MM, TL LC, Plasma Cannons, but getting Psycannons, TL HB, TL AC, Incinerator upgrades for Storm Bolters, availability of Psycannon bolts, Force DCCWs, and teleport DS.

- Deathwatch - As the Deathwatch and Ordo Xenos are responsible for the eradication of hostile xenos forces and the capture of xenos tech, I see the DW as being the most high tech Space Marine force in the 40k 'verse - consequently, I see them getting access to Land Speeders with better options and Dreads that can't get MM, TL AC, or Heavy Flamers, but get TL LC, Plasma Cannons, TL HB, and a weapon with one of the modes from the new Thunderfire Cannon. In addition, they'd get Hellfire Rounds for their TL HB.

- Sisters of Battle - Their character is simple - cleansing flames. This means the holy trinity of the bolter, flamer, and melta. I'd like to see a SoB Dread with an Inferno-like heavy flamer, TL HB, or MM. It'd get access to holy promethium and blessed ammo and could use Acts of Faith.

These are the rumored stats for the HQ in the new Codex SM:

Chapter Master
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 Ld10 Sv3+

Captain
- Ws6 Bs5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv 3+

Do you think DW Captains and DW Hero should be brought in line with the new space marine HQ stats or would it be too much? Similarly what impact should it have on GK?