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Not a bad fandex - nice summary of Inquisitor-linked forces. All you need are points values, stats, and some way of distinguishing Radicals and Puritans. IMHO that's a pretty large cleavage in the =I=, perhaps even more so than that between the three branches and fluff-wise probably the single largest hole in the list.

Apologies if this post in some way contributes to the derailing of this thread.

WS6? Wow.

Guess it makes all those Eldar players feel inadequate.

BYE

wight_widow wrote:Not a bad fandex - nice summary of Inquisitor-linked forces. All you need are points values, stats, and some way of distinguishing Radicals and Puritans. IMHO that's a pretty large cleavage in the =I=, perhaps even more so than that between the three branches and fluff-wise probably the single largest hole in the list.

Apologies if this post in some way contributes to the derailing of this thread.

Not at all a derailment. This is quite on topic.

How does one express Radical and Puritan Inquisitor and their coalition:

1) The inquisitor will have wargear and upgrades that are indicative of their Ordo but also of their belief... Radical Ordo Xenos might carry an alien weapon, Ordo Malleus -daemon weapons... the members of their retinues will likely be different.
2) A radical force will consist of the core unit option with access to what will hopefully be very powerful deviants, representing the reduced resources of an Inquisitor that is on the fringes of the Inquisitions beliefs. While the Puritains will have access to the highest level of support the Inquisition can grants, access to the chamber militants.

I think some upgrades will be built into the Storm Troopers depending on if their Inquisitor is a Radical or Puritan.

Any other recommendations for representing the Radicals and Puritans are appreciated.

An Inquisitor must take a Ordo Seal:
Seal of the Ordo Hereticus: Preferred Enemy against any model with a Psychic power.
Seal of the Ordo Malleus: Preferred Enemy against any Daemonic Unit.
Seal of the Ordo Xenos: Preferred Enemy against Eldar, Necron, Tyranid, or Ork model with “Monstrous Creature” or possesses an Invulnerable save.

An Inquisitor may choose to be a Radical or Puritan.
A Radical may take Deviant Units, but not any Chamber Militant Units.
A Puritan may take any Chamber Militant Units, but not any Deviant Units.


This is the modified version of the Inquisitor Retinue Henchmen Choices:

-Any Inquisitorial Retinue may take a number of the following:
The Acolyte (+8pts) A wound on Inq. may be allocated to Acolyte; May take 15 pts of wargear
The Familiar (+6pts) Inq. +1I, +1 Psychic pwr; Loses Las-pistol
The Sage (+10pts) Inq. +1BS, Unit may reroll to hit shooting roll
The Pariah (+12 pts) Any daemonic unit or unit with a psychic power trying to shoot the retinue must follow night fighting rules.
The Warrior (+10pts) Inq. +1 WS; +1 BS, Sv 4+, targeter, frag, krak, Hellgun or Hell Pistol and CCW
Upgraders: Flamer +5, Plasma Gun +10, Meltagun +10, PFist&CCW +15, MM+25, HB +15, 0-1 PC +35

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Chirurgeon (+12) Ignore first wound (may change to feel no pain)
The Crusader (+20pts) Inq. +1 WS (does not stack with Warrior); +1WS, PW and Supression Shield

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take:
The Penitent (+7pts) Psychic protection; Lose Las-pistol

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Heirophant (+8pts) Inq.+1LD, Makes daemons move as if through difficult terrain to assault
The Mystic (+6pts) Free shooting attack on Deep Striking Daemon

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Malleus may take:
The Medium (+10pts) Force daemon to re-roll reserve

-Any Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Magos (+25pts) May re-roll d6 for AP; Has Power Armor, Power Weapon, Servo Arm
The Rogue Trader (+20pts) Unit gains Furious Charge

-Any Radical Inquisitor with a seal of the Ordo Xenos may take:
The Xenos (+15 pts) Unit gains Acute Sense; Death-arc (re-roll to wound; R24 S3 AP – Assault 2)


As a new troop entry:
Inquisitorial Highguard (12pts/model)
Ws4 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv4+
Maul (Close combat weapon w/rending); Combat Shield (5+ inv. save)
May upgrade Maul and Combat Shield to a Voulge (+1S, +1I) (? pts)

I say the Crusader should just get a Storm Shield. Much easier to work out.

But this is a good start, lots of ideas.

BYE

aka_mythos wrote:An Inquisitor must take a Ordo Seal:

The Acolyte (+8pts) A wound on Inq. may be allocated to Acolyte; May take 15 pts of wargear

IMO, it's better if the Inquisitor has the option of not taking any Ordo seal.

Also, what is "Wargear"?!?

Don't be obtuse Jonny-boy... oh wait... you can't. Don't stir up gak over 'wargear'.


I do agree though - the Inquisitor shouldn't have to take a Seal from one of the main Ordos. There should be a Seal of Imperial Glory!!!

BYE

Despite GW's move away from Wargear, I don't think they'll be able to avoid it with an Inquisition list - there's just too many options to cram into the unit entry otherwise (not to mention its actually very fluffy if Marines and IG get what they're given, whereas Inquisitors get to pick and chose what they want).

The other main question is how GW will approach unit entries. The version presented here is perfectly viable and keeps unit entries to a minimum, but each unit entry needs a LOT of options (particularly in the elites section). Which could cause GW to claim its too confusing.

The alternative is to have more unit entries but to have them restricted based on HQ choices (the 'unlocking' method previously discussed).
Under this method each unit gets its own entry in the army list but not all of them are allowed (by the way, I think it would be easy to represent by simply having icons in the HQ unit entries - where you see the same icon in the rest of the list, you can take that unit).
The only exceptions would be Troop choices, now comprising basic Stormtrooper, Sisters, GK and DW squads. You can take these without the assciated HQ unit, but they count as an elites choice.

The question is, would GW favour fewer entries with lots of options, or more entries but with not all of them available?

Who cares what GW would do. This is a proposed rules forum, not a propose what you think GW would do forum.

BYE

I've actually typed this up in the form of a current GW unit entry. It gives you a good sense of whether you've gone overboard I found.

I use the term "wargear" because it is a term has existed and conveys the existence of weapon and upgrade options. This is opposed to saying Armoury or anything else conveying the old system of a common wargear list. So when I say wargear I mean it will look like this:

"An inquisitor may replace his Bolt pistol with:

Bolter + 1pt
Storm Bolter + 5pts
Combi-bolter +10pts
etc."

I think we will end up reverting to the list where the Chamber Militant are not necessarily in the core list, a stricter unlockable list. Cause while this is good, it does run the risk of being confusing.

What type of Deviant Units do you have in mind? Are you thinking like for Ordo Xenos, maybe they'd have access to an Eldar Warlock, or a unit of Kroot, or something like that? I mean, these have got to be pretty good to compensate for losing the Chamber Militant units.

As far as the additional retinue for Radicals go, I think that The Penitent under the Radical Hereticus should be called The Blank and put under the general retinue rules. Eisenhorn had Bequin and her Distaff with his retinue before he went Radical and he's Ordo Xenos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who cares what GW would do. This is a proposed rules forum, not a propose what you think GW would do forum.

Amen.

I like the idea of a core Inquisition list containing only Inquisition units, Radical units, and the various Rogue's Gallery of weird and crazy units.

And then to the side you have three additional lists, each representing the Chamber Militant, and you can pick from given the right Seal on your Inquisitor, otherwise those units are not allowed.

BYE

Death By Monkeys wrote:What type of Deviant Units do you have in mind? Are you thinking like for Ordo Xenos, maybe they'd have access to an Eldar Warlock, or a unit of Kroot, or something like that? I mean, these have got to be pretty good to compensate for losing the Chamber Militant units.

As far as the additional retinue for Radicals go, I think that The Penitent under the Radical Hereticus should be called The Blank and put under the general retinue rules. Eisenhorn had Bequin and her Distaff with his retinue before he went Radical and he's Ordo Xenos.

My idea with the Deviants I think they will need balancing, but I want them to all end up with roughly the same usefulness and cost:

ELITE
(0-1?) DEVIANTS 85 pts/model
Ws4 Bs4 S6 T4 W4 I4 A4 Ld8 Sv4+

Unit Composition: 1-3 Deviants
Unit Type: Infantry

Special Rules:
Deviants: Seen as sins against mankind made manifest only a Radical Inquisitor may take this unit.
Fearless
Invulnerable (4+ save is invulnerable)
Independent

Options:
An Inquisitor with the seal of the Ordo Hereticus may take Unsanctioned Psykers.
An Inquisitor with the seal of the Ordo Malleus may take Daemonhosts.
An Inquisitor with the seal of the Ordo Xenos may take Xenos Mercenaries.

Unsanctioned Psyker:
Psychic Vampires: Each Unsanctioned Psyker regains 1 wound for every wound inflicted on a model with a psychic power.
The Coven: Unsanctioned Psykers may attack independently of each other or as a combined attack. For an independent attack each Unsanctioned Psyker must make a psychic test as normal and follow the attack profile representing a single attack and must take a perils of the warp test as normal. Unsanctioned Psykers combining an attack may take a psychic test at +1Ld for each additional Unsanctioned Psyker contributing to the attack; the combined will of the Unsanctioned Psykers only fail Perils of the Warp on a double roll of 1’s. If all three Unsanctioned Psykers combine their attack they automatically pass their psychic test and the perils of the warp.

Psychic Powers:
Warp Blast (Used in the Shooting Phase)
No. of
Deviants Range Str AP Type
1- 18” 4 3 Assault 3
2- 24” 5 2 Assault Blast
3- 30” 6 1 Assault Large Blast

Dominate (may be used in either the assault or shooting phase; unit may make assault after power’s use)
No. of
Deviants
1- A target enemy unit within 12” must take a Leadership test at -1; if they fail 1d3 enemies must roll to attack against its own unit instead of its normal attack.
2- A target enemy unit within 12” must take a Leadership test at -2; if they fail 1d3 enemies must roll to attack against its own unit instead of its normal attack.
3- A target enemy unit within 12” must take a Leadership test at -3; if they fail 1d6 enemies must roll to attack against its own unit instead of its normal attack.


Daemonhost:
Summoned (Deep Strike)
Pass all Psychic Tests
Roll D6 for Psychic Power:
1) Terrify: All non-vehicle units must take a Pinning Test
2) Re-Knit Host Form: Recover All Wounds
3) Teleport: May redeploy, deep strike not within 1” enemy. May assault that turn.
4) Blood Boil: Place Ordnance template over Daemon host, All other models take S3 AP2 hit
5) Timeshift: The Daemonhost move 12” and assault 12” with double the number of attacks.
6) Warp Strength: Add +D3 to Strength and Toughness effective till next turn


Xenos Mercenaries (think big werewolf creatures with hair that functions like fiber optics (furry Predator) w/ technology from different Xenos)
Infiltrate, Fleet of Foot, +1 to Cover Save, Feel No Pain, Preferred Enemy: any monstrous creature or model with invulnerable save.

Headhunter Trophies: Enemies must past a leadership test to charge into assault against Xenos Mercenaries. (Fearless and Units that pass moral checks can ignore); Enemy models that Xenos mercenaries have prefered enemies against score double kill points, Xenos Mercenaries do not consolidate after killing such a model (and its retinue).

Plasma Caster (counts as pistol) Range Str AP Type
24” 7 2 Assault 2
Lacerator
Roll as normal to hit, Rending, Re-roll To Wound

Addendum:

Storm Trooper
Special Rule:
Radical: The troops of a Radical Inquisitor become accustomed with seeing the abominations their Inquisitor lord employs; all morale tests may always be taken with unit’s leadership (ie no negative modifiers).

Puritans: Resolved to purge the unclean enemies of the Imperium, the troops of a Puritan Inquisitor are filled with a righteous zeal to propel themselves into the fight. May choose to Re-roll reserve roll.

As far as Bequin and a negative psychic aura, it is a good example of an additional henchmen archetype that is left out and should be included. In the Inquisitor game the type of character Bequin's power represents is called a "Psychic Pariah" or an "Untouchable," I'm not sure how to represent it but a "Psychic Pariah" is an individual who does not exist in any way shape or form on the Psychic/warp plane of reality and thus daemons and telepaths can't see them unless the Pariah does something drastic to draw attention; they are not affected by psychic attacks either. It really sounds like what "the Penitent" does is representative of the same sort of impact a "Psychic Pariah" would have... the distinction is in the fact that "the penitent" is a psychic who is forced to fight off another psychic attack.

My thought is:

Any Inquisitor may take:
The Pariah +12 pts ; Any daemonic unit or unit with a psychic power trying to shoot the retinue must follow night fighting rules.

Hmm... yes. Untouchables. Forgot about them.

Personally the Radical side needs to go further. Giving up an entire Chamber Militant for a single unit is not a good trade.

I mean think about it now:

Crappy Daemonhost w/random powers (that has to change) vs every Grey Knight choice there is.

This is not a hard choice to make, and only people who really want to play to the fluff would choose to take a Daemonhost (I did that once in a list I made, and although I wasn't playing the list I was happy to see the Daemonhost make a 10-man unit of Terminators run away!!! ).

So there needs to be more to it.

Think of the Exorcists Chapter. They were possesed by Daemons (on purpose) and then had them exorcised. Now they're an elite anti-daemon Chapter... who happens to be hunted for being tained! Perfect type of force.

If you didn't want to go the route of having Radical-but-still-loyal Marines, you could do the same thing with general troops. Being a radical allows you to take 'Exorcised' troops, who gain benefits over regular troops.


For Hereticus you could have units of Thralls - squads that are under the mind control of the Unsanctioned/Alpha Level Psyker.

For Xenos you could have squads of Xenos based upon the type of Xenos advisor you took. Things like Blood Axe Commandos, Eldar Rangers, Kroot (obviously) would all make good choices.

Even psychic powers and 'radical' Henchman would be appropriate. In our DH Codex there's a power called Daemonicus Captivo, which allows the DH Inquisitor to temporarily allow himself to be possessed, gaining an incredible stat boost, but it can seriously damage him if he's not careful.

There needs to be a reason to become Radical.

BYE

Like I said its a working concept for deviants... I want to re-work the Daemonhosts to be more consistent no 1d6 power. That said can you give more of critique to balance and fairness? For what you get with those units is it a fair price?

I am very reluctant to making too drastic a modification to the list to represent Radicals... I mean Chamber Militant are an essential part of the Inquisitions character while radicals as you propose would be units that fly in the face of that uniqueness and detract either from the Inquisition or the armies those units come from, which was why I chose no name Xenos.

The differences of Radicals and Puritans is a hard thing to deal with. I realize this is a bit distorted, but It might be better served to compare the differences of Radicals and Puritan Inquisitors without thought to the Chamber Militant.

What I mean is this, a majority of players who take a Inquisition force are going to do it for the Chamber militant. This puts Puritan armies in the position of being a majority of the time Chamber Militant armies with a little bit of Inquisitor and few of the common resources they are defined by that. While a Radical army is going to be intensely the common resources and should have mechinisms to have define them. There are options in the Inquisitor list that anyone playing a Chamber Militant Puritan army will likely never take simply because the Chamber militant supersede them. A player choosing to play a chamber militant army is in some ways committing to a bit more restrictive army. A Chamber militant and puritan is going to be very high priced with few models, a radical army will have more models and a higher number of units fielded. So there are trade offs (I know not much of one).

In the same way I think SM and IG should be excluded from this codex I think Orks, Kroot, Eldar should as well. They might make for interesting henchmen and be worth incorporating as upgrades to "the xenos" henchmen, but you start to really get out their in left field. In a list that I agree is heavily loaded in options we don't want to add so much. As an example with the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codices, their enemies were not included in their list no matter how "radical" those armies were. The elements the enemies Radicals seem to find acceptable were lesser evils, in that vein I chose to follow the idea that Xeno's mercenaries would be from races that are too small a population to be a threat.

The approach I would rather take is to give the core units enough "umph" that a radical player can have a dangerous army without chamber militants or outnumbering his imperial soldiers with aliens/psykers/daemons. I think what I want to do is to add rules like I did to the storm troopers, maybe more extreme, that while present for both are blatantly favoring radicals in bonuses. The only other option would be to make the Chamber militant a bit more minimalist and limited while creating a parallel set of "Radical" equivalent. Different advisory type attachable Deviants for the stormtroopers might be the best way to go. That way we get a dichotomous nature of the Inquisition drawn as being Uber-mench chamber militants relative to the empowerment of the average man with a "what ever it takes" approach of the radicals. An example is a Radical player can add a Psyker to a stormtrooper squad while a Puritan can't, or that this where you could have your Eldar advisor who grants some of the "mastery of stealth" of a Eldar Ranger to Storm Troopers.

Remember that they're Radicals, not Heretics, so they're not out doing evil deeds and allying with daemons/aliens for the hell of it. Instead they're of the opinion that the best way to defeat their enemy is to use their enemy against itself.

Daemonhosts and the Exorcists are a perfect example of that. The Xenos Inquisitors having aliens in their forces isn't a terrible idea either.

Think of it this way - the Inquisitor hears of an Ork Warboss that's gathering his strength. If the Inquisitor is a Purtiain, he might send in a Deathwatch Kill Team or go down himself with some of his personal guard of Storm Troopers to quickly cut the head from the snake.

The Radical on the other hand might look for opposing Warbosses in the area, and could happen upon some Blood Axes - well known for the love of human 'taktiks' and 'kamoflage' - and use them to find a way into the Warboss' camp to kill him quickly.

Same result, different methods. One has used his own forces or the Chamber Militant to achieve his goals in the 'correct' manner, the other has used the Ork's warlike nature and desire to fight with anyone against themselves, getting one group of Orks to help him destroy another group.

Kryptman throwing Leviathan into the Ork held part of the galaxy is an extreme example, but you could have smaller scale ones where an Inquisitor teams up with a Warlock or an Exarch (who brings some Rangers, maybe some Scorpians and other stealthy units) to eliminate a particular enemy that achieves their goals.

I know you wanted non-named Xenos, but I'm also thinking of this from a practicality standpoint - the models for the named races already exist. A simpler approach is to use what we have - there's a wealth of examples out there, and enough material to justify anything (except Tyranid or Necrons being allied with the Inquisition - everyone else would have their price, even the Dark Eldar can be bought). And I'm sure in the back of his mind the Radical Inquisitor knows that once they've dealt with the major threat, he can just kill his would-be allies - they are Xenos/Daemonic/Heretical after all!

I am very reluctant to making too drastic a modification to the list to represent Radicals

These wouldn't really be modifications. More... additions.

You can represent it at multiple levels, from henchman to FOC choices.

For Henchman then, say there are 6 basic Henchman that anyone can get:

Familiar
Acolyte
Sage
Warior
Servitor
Untouchable

Then for Daemonhunters:

Heirophant (Puritain)
Mystic (Radical)

Witchhunters:

Crusader (Puritain)
Penitent Psyker (Radical)

Xenos:

AdMech Overseer/Magus/Priest (or something) )(Puritain)
Xenos Advisor (Radical)

So every group has 8, of which 6 will always be the same, one will be for the Puritains and one will be for the Radicals.

Then that filters down into your Chambers as well:

Puritain/Radical:

Grey Knights/Exorcists
Sisters of Battle/Psychic Thralls -or- Mutant Warriors (or something)
Death Watch/Actual Xenos Squads (but basic units, and the more stealthy units, so Kommandos, Rangers, Scorps, Warp Spiders, Stealth Suits, Kroot... uhh... Carnifexes)

Ok, I'm kidding about the Carnifexes... unless its a Looted Carnifex.

Again, even as far as psychic powers: 6 Basic, and then 2 additional for each Ordo (so 12 total), one is Radical, one is Puritain.

And so on - the generic, and then each Ordo split down the middle between Radical and Puritain.


It doesn't require a huge amount of changes or even additions, especially if we're sticking to units that already exist. In all honesty the part that requires the most 'out of thin air' stuff is the Deathwatch side of things.


But even you disagree with the method above, the reasons for it remain the same:

There has to be an incentive to be Radical.

Giving up Grey Knights for a crappy Daemonhost is not an incentive. It's almost a punishment!!!

BYE

Pariahs (not necron or culexus) are already covered in the WH rules. Unfortunately, they're just treated as pentinents with their ability to nullify incoming powers.

Are the current inquisitor lords 0-1? I thought you could take more though I might have misread.

I very much like the idea of an 'inquisitorial' list like this as it sort of gives me Rogue Trader vibes.

Riffing on H.'s last post, maybe have Radical Xenos =I= work like Truthsayers and Dark Emissaries - their convoluted plans could place them in the ranks of nearly any alien force.

And really, why wouldn't a Radical Malleus or Hereticus show up from time to time to ride herd on his pet Chaos cult? Maybe give them the option of taking a Mark of Malaal...the zeal and drive of the Inquisitor has led them, in a very Nietschean fashion, to become that which they hunt.

Pure Daemons, Necrons and Tyranids could be a bit of a stretch, but knowing the malleability of GW fluff, in the latter case I don't think it's unreasonable to rip off the Psi Emitter story from Brood War to justify a rogue Xenos with his own personal swarm. Hell, that's how I wanted to fluff MY Tyranids. (with a sort of more comfortable, shootier version of a Penitent Engine, carrying a miniature former Grand Inquisitor wight_widow, leading them...) Just replace "this device interferes with the psionic connections of the Zerg" with "this device is a modified Psychic Hood that jams Tyranis synaptic signals in the vicinity."

The problem is the Tyranids are very adaptable. If you've read Anphelion, they started off as some lab speciments, and by the end were throwing bio-titans into battle. I don't think Tyranids can be contained with a psy-emitter.

BYE

Well, they evolve fast, but the 40k timeline are stretched out over millenia and they've been using the same basic tactics, weapons and genus for a long time. Even accelerated evolution isn't that fast of a procedure. The idea that the weilder of the emitter might not outlive its effects on the swarm just makes the idea that much cooler IMHO.

(@mods: sorry for going off-topic. This is really starting to turn into more of a fluff thread.)

No this is fine.

As I said I'm reluctant to represent the Radicals with units from other lists.

HBMC the problem I see with Radicals as you describe is this:
A) We fall into the trap of creating another 3 mini army list.
B) If a Radical were to get Bloodaxe/Thralls/etc it begs the question how is that not Heresy?
C) How is this better representing such an Inquisitor vs just tossing him and his retinue into the appropriate other army (Inq. in a Ork list)?

On B) an Inquisitor would only ever commit a Radical action such as using Blood Axe Orks if he thought he had enough control over them.

On C), I have a strong aversion to using units from another army to justify this army. In Inquisitor and the Dark Heresy games the only aliens are those that are as a species such a small threat the Inquisition doesn't deem it a threat. The first Xenos in that game came from a species that is all but wiped out. They only added an Eldar, Genestealer and temple assassin when they realized people just wanted a small scale 40k game. This was when that game was handed off from Games Workshop to Specialist games.

aka_mythos wrote:B) If a Radical were to get Bloodaxe/Thralls/etc it begs the question how is that not Heresy?

Ah, there you get into the hair-splitting that allows Radicals to be Radicals while still feeling like they're being loyal to the Imperium. To quote the Wh40K lexicanum entry on the subject:

"The pragmatic Radical Inquisitors follow the Imperial doctrines in spirit, believing that the ends justify the means, and find little value in adhering to convention too closely. They often try to fight fire with fire, using Chaos or alien weaponry, employing Daemonhosts, or committing other acts that would be deemed heretical by their more conservative brethren."

So how radical do we make an Inquisitor before we just say he's a heretic?

With a radical there is an inherent hubris, his belief that he unlike others he can control these things. How delusional can we represent a radical to be, before the radical becomes Chaos?

In most fluff when an inquisitor goes so far off the deep end it isn't long before they are excommunicated and hunted down. That was why my thought was something one step back from that extreme. A radical here would be a person heading down that path but not quite to Chaos yet. They would be employing lesser enemies, a daemonhost is half human half daemon not fully daemonic... a Xenos mercenary that is a minor threat to the imperium... a coven of telepaths that has control of its powers but isn't so large as to pose a major threat yet. They all have the potential to spiral out of control but for the time being the Radical can feel safe in feeling he has control.

aka_mythos wrote:So how radical do we make an Inquisitor before we just say he's a heretic?

Well, take Eisenhorn for example. Eisenhorn was deemed a heretic and hunted for consorting with a Daemonhost. So, frankly, that alone is enough to make you a heretic. I don't think we in the role of the game designer need to decide what is heresy and what isn't. I mean, in 40k, you'll see GK army vs. GK army. Why? Well, one thought the other was a heretic. From a game design standpoint, does that really matter? No, not really. What matters is that we design characterful units that can be utilized by a Radical without it being OTT. And really, for that, for as much consensus-building as we want to do, there needs to be an executive decision as to what is too much.

So what is appropriate/inappropriate for a Radical Inquisitor to be able to call upon in terms of what makes sense from a game perspective - just talking about Malleus here, not Xenos or Hereticus (these are just my opinions):

- Imperial Guard - appropriate
- Exorcists SM - appropriate
- Relictors SM - appropriate
- Daemonhost - appropriate
- Use of a Chaos weapon - appropriate
- Chaos Cultists - maybe appropriate?
- Possessed Space Marine (not a Possessed CSM, mind you) - maybe appropriate?
- A single Lesser Demon (like an Imp of some kind - maybe acting like a special familiar?) - maybe appropriate?
- Chaos Space Marine - inappropriate
- Marked Chaos Space Marine - inappropriate
- Unit of Lesser Daemons, Daemons, or Greater Daemons - inappropriate

All of these are debatable, right? But what is heresy to a puritan is demonstrated by fluff to be utilized by radicals. So, we need to figure out from the perspective of the Radical , "Where do you draw the line?"

Ok, so what about for Xenos (again - my opinions here, some based on BL novels)?

- Imperial Guard - appropriate
- Rogue Traders - appropriate
- Human Tau Auxiliary/Diggas - appropriate
- Kroot - appropriate
- Eldar - appropriate
- Tau - appropriate
- Demiurge/Hrud - maybe appropriate?
- Blood Axe Orks - maybe appropriate?
- Dark Eldar - maybe appropriate? (leaning toward inappropriate)
- All other Orks - inappropriate
- Tyranids - inappropriate
- Necrons - inappropriate

But frankly, there'd need to be a lot of thought into making units from these balance.

The way I would look at Radical Daemonstuff is that it's usable if it's *bound*. Bound Daemonhost? OK. Daemonweapon? OK. Possessed Loyalist Marine? OK.

Radical Hereticus is the whole Anglican vs. Catholic debate writ small, more Big-Endian vs Little-Endian. There probably isn't anything rules-wise that would appear.

Radical Xenos? Probably similar to bound Daemonstuff. Alien technology is OK. Aliens with slave chips? OK. Rules-wise, these could be "counts as" something else. For example, Orks with slave chips & stims could be fielded as Arco-Flagellants.

But that still leaves the question as to whether a MEQ Chamber of some sort is desirable to embody the effects of alien technology / bound Chaos.

Given that list I'm inclined to say for Radicals:
Malleus = Exorcists, Inq. w/ daemon weapon, Deviant
Xenos = Kroot Mercenaries, Inq. w/ xeno tech, Deviant
Hereticus = ? , Items that amplify psyker power, Deviant

I think Hereticus is the hardest. I almost just want to do something like attaching Sanctioned psyker-esque advisors to each squad.

With Xeno Hunters it makes sense to use their tech against them, daemon hunters similarly, but witch hunters requires them to be a witch, in this case a sanctioned psyker, but you can't out right employ some lesser witches. There isn't as much gray wiggle room because the imperium does establish some specific distinction.

aka_mythos wrote:A) We fall into the trap of creating another 3 mini army list.

Not at all. These would literally be additional choices - one, maybe two units max. So, using the Orks again as an example, if you take the 'Kommando Kaptain', you can take a unit of Kommandos as an Elites slot (or Troops, whichever is more approrpiate). You could field two such units, one as a retinue for your 'Deviant' (ie. the Kaptain), and one as a separate unit.

So it's basically an extra squad or two, plus some fancy psychic powers, special equipment and henchman - it makes it worth while.

I'm not suggesting that we allow 'Advisor - Exarch' = my army is now half Eldar, with Leman Russes, Fire Prisms, Wraithlords, Inducted Space Marines and Harliquens. That'd just be silly. I'm just saying a squad or two from each list that would be appropriate, with a suitable low-level commander (Kaptain, Warlock, Exarch, Shas'vre, Shaper, Sybarite... Carnifex).

aka_mythos wrote:B) If a Radical were to get Bloodaxe/Thralls/etc it begs the question how is that not Heresy?

As discussed above, Heresy is something that is relative. An extreme puritain could call you a heretic for not saying the correct prayer at the correct time, or at least claim that you are tained and need to be tested/judged/whatever for Chaos influence. Radicals will always be seen as Heretical by extreme Puritains, and that's fine. But if we're going to represent them, and I think we should as it is such a big part of the Inquisition fluff - the whole ends justifies the means and how far are you willing to go to complete your goals - that it needs to be something you would consider doing.

aka_mythos wrote:C) How is this better representing such an Inquisitor vs just tossing him and his retinue into the appropriate other army (Inq. in a Ork list)?

Because I don't see an Inquisitor marching to war alongside a horde of Orks. I more see an Inquisitor talking to an Ork leader until he's convinced him that their goals are alined, and that, if they were to work along side one another, then they could both be the winners - the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. And in both cases, each respective side (the Inquisitor and the Ork) plan to kill their 'ally' the moment their objective is achieved. So it's an alliance of conviniance, and shows the Inquisitor using the alien against the alien (or witch against the witch, or daemon against the daemon, whoever you happen to be playing).

aka_mythos wrote:On B) an Inquisitor would only ever commit a Radical action such as using Blood Axe Orks if he thought he had enough control over them.

The Blood Axes I simply used as an example as out of all the Orks they are the only ones likely to listen to a "stinkin' oomie!!". In cases such as with the Eldar, I think the Inquisitor would be quite naive if he thought he had control over them, and would mostly be appealing to the Eldar's sense of duty to protect themselves over a greater threat to get them on side. And, again, in both cases both sides will be looking to kill one another once the objective is met.

aka_mythos wrote:On C), I have a strong aversion to using units from another army to justify this army. In Inquisitor and the Dark Heresy games the only aliens are those that are as a species such a small threat the Inquisition doesn't deem it a threat. The first Xenos in that game came from a species that is all but wiped out. They only added an Eldar, Genestealer and temple assassin when they realized people just wanted a small scale 40k game. This was when that game was handed off from Games Workshop to Specialist games.

Dark Heresy isn't about an Inquisitor though, it's about some of the many hundreds of agents an Inquisitor might have, conducting their own investigations. The Inquisition Codex focuses more on the overt types of Inquisitor - the ones that go to war as opposed to fighting from the shadows. Be they Radical or Puritain, they will use whatever means necessary and have no desire for secrecy.

And Inquisitors with Assassins fighting Aliens has been around for much longer than the game Inquisitor. In the Inquisitor Wars trilogy from years ago, Inquisitor Jag Draco had a Squat, a Navigator and a Callidus Assassin in his retinue. Later on he picked up an Imperial Fist Captain, and they fought against a Genestealer infestation, matched wits with a Harlequin, fought on a Daemonworld against Slaaneshi forces, and even inside the Eldar Webway (where the Callidus was killed by Jain Zar).

Don't let yourself be contrained by 40K's fluff. 40K's fluff is written specifically to allow you to do pretty much anything within the very broad boarders that they've set up. There are billions of planets and untold trillions upon trillions of human lives out there. There are even more aliens, and a whole realm filled with daemons. The scope we have to work in is beyond imagination, which is the reason why I've stuck with 40K despite the bumbling idiocy of the design team. The fact that we have so much lattitude is what makes this work.

And to bring this back to the Codex, we don't have to contrain ourselves at all. I'm not suggesting full armies of Xenos and Witches and Daemons, just choices.

So, for example:

HQ
0-1 Deviant

The type of Deviant spends on the Seal your Inquisitor bears. In order to take a Deviant, your Inquisitor must bare a Seal of one of the three main Ordos.

Seal of the Ordo Malleus:
Daemonhost

Seal of the Ordo Hereticus
Alpha Level/Unsanctioned Psyker

Seal of the Ordo Hereticus
Xenos Advisor (pick one from the following list: Blood Axe Kommando Captain, Eldar Warlock, Eldar Exarch, Stealth Suit Shas'vre, Kroot Shaper, Dark Eldar Sybarite, Carnifex)


And then later on in the book:

Elites -or- Troops
0-1 Deviant Squad
The type of Deviant Squad depends on the type of Deviant Taken.

Daemonhost:
Tained Space Marine Squad (ie. a squad possessed and then exorcised, like the Exorcist chapter)

Alpha Level/Unsanctioned Psyker:
Mind Slaves (Thralls that the Inquisitor has had the Psyker take over in order to bolster his forces)

Kommando Kaptain:
Ork Kommandos

Warlock:
Guadians/Rangers

Exarch:
Striking Scorpians/Rangers

Stealth Suit Shas'vre:
Stealth Suits/Pathfinders

Kroot Shaper:
Kroot Carnivores

Dark Eldar Sybarite:
Not sure (not really 'up' on DE choices as I've never played against them)


It's a big list, that's for sure, but it's a single choice - not a whole sub-army - and really hammers home the whole Radical side of things. It would also mean that the Inquisition army in question would have to rely more on its own forces rather than the Chambers.

And that's our next big task - make standard Inquisition forces worthwhile, so a 'proper' Inquisition army can exist without taking GKs, SoBs or DW. I've taken armies of nothing but Inquisitors and Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, and while they're loads and loads of fun, they're not very good. The other choices I avoided because they're no good at all (Archo's, Penitent Engines, Death Cult Assassins, etc.).

Plus we also have to look at lesser Inquisitors, and what role they play in this.

BYE

I'm not allowing fluff to constrain, rather I'm attempting to use it as a guide line.

I think for the simplicity of the codex, we re-work the current "Deviant" entry to work right. On top of that there should be a single HQ and a single troop entry for each radical faction. None of the Radical units should count towards required FOC. I think a general slant and advantage of the radical units is a degree of flexibility; so while they'll only have a minimal unit choice of deviants, those deviants will be able to take on a variety of different roles.

I think for Daemonhunter radicals an "Exorcist" Captain (HQ) and Possessed Marines (troops); a variety of daemonic manifestations.


For alien hunters, I really think it important to stay away from having more than one alien species as an option here. I think it should be some singular and flexible species that is a relatively minor threat. Thats why I think Kroot Shaper (HQ) and Kroot Mercenaries (w/Kroot Hounds and Krootox in a single troop entry) with options representing their adaptive DNA based on the variety of things they've eaten giving them a variety of flexible special rules to choose from.

For the witchhunters I'm thinking something along the line of cult like Feral worlders who use shamanist psykers. Don't know what sort of units. This might be too similar to Kroot.

I think you guys are more or less on the right track.

What I'd do to simplify the Radicals is just have them as (effectively) a fourth Ordo, rather than as subsets of the others. Give them options for each choice, but let them take only one - so you have a weapon choice for Malleus, Hereticus, and Xenos, but they can only pick one. They can take either a Daemonhost or badass psyker or Xenos mercenary, and so on. That way you only have to make one compelling and balanced Radical list, instead of three.

Add a strong Troops choice that's specific to Radicals, but not flavored for any particular Ordo. I've actually got one drawn up but it's sitting at work; I'll try to post it tomorrow.