[V5] YMTC - Charging units that always count as being in cover

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**yakface**

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

The Dark Eldar Mandrake Shadow-Skinned rules say (Dark Eldar codex, pg 8): "Mandrakes always count as being in cover, giving them a 5+ cover save. This counts in an assault as well, so unless the attackers are armed with frag grenades, the Mandrakes will always strike first."

The Tau Stealth Field Generator rules say (Tau Empire codex, pg 27): "Models equipped with stealth field generators count as being in cover if they are assaulted."

The Space Wolves Storm Caller psychic power rules say (Space Wolves codex, pg 6): "This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn."

The Assaulting Through Cover rules say (rulebook, pg 36): "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. . .if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."

QUESTION: If a unit assaults a unit that 'always counts as being in cover' (but isn't actually physically in cover) what happens?

OPTION A. In the new rules, a unit that is "in cover" means nothing if the enemy doesn't actually have to move through cover. In the case of the Mandrake and Stormcaller rules, they too just say the unit 'counts as being in cover' and then they provide examples which are no longer relevant to the current rules for cover. Therefore, none of these units get any benefit from their special rules when they are charged by the enemy.

OPTION B. In the new rules, a unit that is "in cover" means nothing if the enemy doesn't actually have to move through cover. However, in the case of the Mandrake and Stormcaller rules, they offer more specific examples of how their rules function. Therefore, Tau Stealth Suits do not get any benefit from their special rules when charged, but Mandrakes and Space Wolves protected by Stormcaller do get to 'strike first' in combat.

OPTION C. These units always count as being in cover and therefore any enemy unit wishing to charge them must take a difficult terrain test to do so and thus will strike them at I1 that round.

OPTION D. Enemy units charging a unit that 'always counts as being in cover' still assault them normally but any attacks directed at these units are resolved at I1 for that round.

OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

**Pika_power**

I think B. After all, it has specific examples. Chances are that is what I would play. A pity none of my friends take that sort of wargear.

**Drunkspleen**

D, all rules clearly intend for you to strike first unless the opponent has frag grenades, as that is the only benefit cover can offer to a unit in an assault and all three specify that they offer cover in an assault.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

The cover RAW has changed, but the intention of these rules is very clear. D.

**Red_Lives**

Its clearly D

**GMort**

I voted B simply because that is the rules interpretation i have been using, however i might have to change my opinion based on how this vote goes.

GMort.

**SlaveToDorkness**

I voted B because that's what the rules say. Anything else is conjecture, especially since GW had the opprotunity to fix this in the FAQs....and didn't.

Codex> Rulebook fixes everything! Ya!

lol

**Cruentus**

I voted B for the poll. The codexes (codicies) offer specific direction about how it affects cover, especially consideering, as mentioned, RAW about cover has changed.

The only way I could see D working (which was a close second), is if the charging unit needed to make a difficult terrain test, which is now the qualifier for units to benefit from being in cover.

**Lordhat**

I voted D, as this I think is the best compromise between "obsolete" rules that can be adapted, and pure RAW.

**padixon**

I voted B too. The books in question specifically says a unit attacking them will go last, so they do. It doesn't matter if a difficult terrain role is made, when the codex makes a rules change for a specific scenario or unit. There are literally dozens of such rules that specifically counter how a normal rule is used because the codex it came from said so.

**JohnHwangDD**

C.

Cover is cover, and 40k treats cover as binary - if you're entering cover, it's difficult terrain and I1. Apply the full rule.

**SlaveToDorkness**

JohnHwangDD wrote:C.

Cover is cover, and 40k treats cover as binary - if you're entering cover, it's difficult terrain and I1. Apply the full rule.

You must know the full rule to apply it. Read Pg 36 again.

In the curent edition there can be times where a unit is "in cover" and would not benefit from the initiative bonus/handicap in combat.

The rules specify that the I1 is only taken into account if the chargers had to take a Difficult or Dangerous Terrain check.

"Cover" can be granted to a unit that is partially inside Area Terrain, but with all of its bases at the edge of the terrain boundary.

If that unit were assaulted and no chargers had to enter the terrain to get into B2B, they wouldn't have to make a DT check, and therefore wouldn't suffer a loss of I.

Those units that are granted "Cover" that do not require a DT check (or have specific reference to I1) shouldn't grant the I1.

Cover is binary, but seperate from the rules for the I loss. I loss is exclusively the result of a DT check.

**Iboshi2**

I vote B, not because I don't understand the intent of the cover rule, but because I understand the intent of the stormcaller and Shadowskinned rules. The units that assault will never ENTER the terrain. This prevents models from standing half a base in cover, and still striking first.

"any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move"

They are not going through cover, but the rules have a specific strike first statement.

That's just my opinion...

**KeithGatchalian**

The rules quoted for Space Wolves are incorrect. The 2nd printing of the SW Codex states that Wolves only go first if assaulted. I have a PDF of the page if anyone would like to take a look at it. PM me with your email address.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Iboshi2 wrote:
" If any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move"

You forgot a bit, which changes the application of the rule a lot.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Option A.

Although specifically mentioned, the rules all relate to older Core Rules (and thank you for pointing out the change, as I wasn't previously aware!)

Ergo, the cover only counts for shooting.

**SPARKEYG**

I voted D as I think it is the way it was meant to go.

**Wehrkind**

We usually play D, just because it is what makes sense, and we never really thought about the change from 4th to 5th. I suppose at a tournament I would make a point to ask the organizers for a ruling though, since logically the rules don't even really work together now.

One of the rare cases where we assume RAI I suppose. I wouldn't nit pick someone over it certainly.

**penek**

about Storm Caller
i have two versions of SW dex. one normal and one free from Canada GW (pdf)
in normal one power sounds as:

This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn.

But in Canadian pdf it sounds as:

The Space Wolves Storm Caller psychic power rules say (Space Wolves codex, pg 6): "This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in the first round of combat if they are charged.

so by Canadian dex, Storm Caller give your unit strike first only if its charged\assaulted by someone, not in case if they self charged\assaulted.
so what codex are right ? because in one example you will strike first even if you assault, but in second example it works only if you assaulted.

ps. voted for D.

**Orkeosaurus**

Voted for D.

C makes no sense; nowhere does it say that charging a unit in cover requires a difficult terratin test, and nowhere does it say that mandrakes put difficult terrain between them and their enemies.

**Dal'yth Dude**

I chose Option E because I believe option D is correct unless one has grenades that render the I1 penalty moot. Those grenades seem to be much more common now and I found it odd they weren't mentioned in the scenario at all.

I never thought that units that count as "in cover" for assault purposes would ever need to make a difficult terrain check as only their bases would technically be "cover". I also think that is drawing a too fine line on the rules. The intent in my mind is the "in cover" only applies to the I1 rule when assaulted and cover save from shooting in the case of the Wolves and mandrake examples.

**yakface**

Dal'yth Dude wrote:I chose Option E because I believe option D is correct unless one has grenades that render the I1 penalty moot. Those grenades seem to be much more common now and I found it odd they weren't mentioned in the scenario at all.

I never thought that units that count as "in cover" for assault purposes would ever need to make a difficult terrain check as only their bases would technically be "cover". I also think that is drawing a too fine line on the rules. The intent in my mind is the "in cover" only applies to the I1 rule when assaulted and cover save from shooting in the case of the Wolves and mandrake examples.

Your vote should have been for 'D' then. Grenades aren't included in this example as doing so would needlessly complicate the question and answers. The poll is trying to establish whether or not these units count as being in cover. If you play that they *do* count as being in cover then applying grenades to the scenario would then follow the normal rules.

**Dal'yth Dude**

I suppose, but then you do mention things like "do get to 'strike first' in combat" and " will strike them at I1 that round". Splitting hairs, but then that is often how rules debates end up.

**Democratus**

Definately option "A", as it adheres most closely to 5th edition RAW. Outdated codexes simply suffer unless patched with an FAQ.

**Trasvi**

D. From a Tau perspective, my suits are INVISIBLE. that makes it harder for you to hit me.

I'm also of the opinion that grenades don't work.

The obvious intent was for these units to have an edge in combat if charged. i'm much more in favor of following the intent (especially in this cross-edition switch) than the RAW in cases like this where they conflict.

**MythicalMothman**

I wish I could justify D since that's definitely the intent, but I play it as A because that's how it's written now.

I agree with the others who've said that a unit being in cover doesn't affect someone else charging that unit, so I can't agree with C. And the language of the extra examples sounds to me like clarifications rather than additional rules, so I can't agree with B.

**Nurglitch**

MythicalMothman:

How is D definitely the intent? Can you demonstrate that, or provide a proof?

**Black Blow Fly**

I voted for D as this made the most sense to me.

G

**Red_Lives**

Its C and i shall explain why!!!!

All of the aforementioned units are "in cover" this is very clear on all the descriptions. Now go with me here for a moment... in order in be in base to base contact with something that is IN COVER you must be in-fact moving into cover right? Even if its for an infinitesimal amount, no? So the very act of assaulting a unit that is "in cover" requires movement into cover, and on a side note not all cover requires a terrain test to move through.

**Cheex**

Agreed, D makes the most sense to me, but I can definitely see A or B working just as well. It's one of those things players will need to sort out before their games.