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In reference to this thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/223816.page

What would you actually like to see in a revised DE list? Don't need specifics as I'm not proposing anything, more conceptual.
Its the one problem I have, other than totally changing all the actual models, and tweaks of some underperforming units, I'm not sure whats there to change. I have a problem seeing how they are separate from the Eldar sufficient to be different.

So forget fluff and revised sculpts of existing minis
What should be the DE overall gaming focus?
-overall
-troops
-vehicles
-MCs/walkers
-others
-new units

Some love?

Poisoned weaponry, not just in melee but also shooting. Genuinely powerful Mandrakes and Ogryn sized gestalt Grotesques. Special characters that are worth fielding.

... it would be nice if the had lot of special charictors ... not HQ but squad upgrades ... no more then 100pts avrage about 30-50pts ... basicly you get 4-6 pages in the codex dedicated to the most wanted of the dark eldar under world ... all of them come with a great abitity, and a terrible problem (like a close combat king ... that will only fight HQ ... so will ignore other units till he's kill the all the HQ)

also dark eldar tanks should get good rear armour so they don't get screwed in CC (at range fair enough)

I would like to see the list keep its fast strike focus, which would keep well within its own fluff. The book as is is actually pretty close to what I would like to see in a revision, they just need more units and more up to date rules.

I would also like to see a selection of HQ special characters that is more representative of the cabals within the dark eldar. Asdrubael is the most powerful, but far from the only player in the spiky city.

Rather than my traditional rant I will try and offer serious thoughts.

TROOPS
WarriorsRight now they have what? Lasgun equivlants? What about making their splinter guns always wound on 4+ (toxins) which boosts them against the hated MEqs but leaves them more or less the same against other armies. They should have an extra arm blade attack.
I would also lower their leadership. They are raiders and slavers, not bezerker warriors. Let's have an army that runs when it loses.

Wyches
Not much to say but I favor multipart plastics with ball joints at the arms and legs for maximum posibility.

Slaves
NEW UNIT. I'd love to see GW's current plastic tech do a box of beragged IG, civilians and such. Give them several combat drugs with bad side effects and we'll have a nice cannon fodder unit to take some of pressure off of warriors.

THE REST
Making all the heavy weapons assault is overdue.

Raiders could use a rescupt or a better flying base, they seem a nightmare to transport of play with.

Those shadow guys should be resculpted so they're actually coming out of the walls or floor Terminator 2 style. Guys walking around who say they're one with the darkness are just lame.

NEW UNIT - Eldar slave chorus. The Dark Space Elf answer to psykers will be a chorus of captured, screaming torutured Eldar slaves. Cause that would be cool and I couldn't post here without letting out some anti-elf venom.

We already have rules for Kabals and Kults. Why not written rules for strike forces led by Haemonculi? Players fake these up all the time, but some sort of official change would be interesting.

Some meaningful change to both Mandrakes and Grotesques that gives a player a reason to take them instead of Wyches. Right now, 'Drakes and Grot's cost more than Wyches with the Wych Weapons upgrade, but are infinitely inferior in every respect.

Change all of the FA choices in some manner to make someone actually want to take them in a competitive list. Both Reavers and Hellions were designed as assault troops; Hellions are worthless at it, and Reavers are better as small tank-hunting squads.

Give Scourges Jet-packs rather than Jump-packs. This would give them the JSJ option with Dark Lances.

Fix the back-story. I don't care what they do with it specifically, but please do something more than making Dark Eldar into the S&M Eldar they are now. Elaborate upon the story of the split between Eldar and Dark Eldar; what kind of relationship do the two races have now? Is it abject hatred? Respect, but feeling that the other side is wrong? What are their leaders' long term goals? Where do they fit into the 40K Universe as it exists in the current game's geopolitical landscape?

Fix the following models: All HQ (except for Incubi), All Elite, All Troop, All....oh, heck, all of them. Give those players who enjoy painting and converting more than playing a reason to buy DE models because they look cool.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Rather than my traditional rant I will try and offer serious thoughts.

TROOPS
WarriorsRight now they have what? Lasgun equivlants? What about making their splinter guns always wound on 4+ (toxins) which boosts them against the hated MEqs but leaves them more or less the same against other armies. They should have an extra arm blade attack.
I would also lower their leadership. They are raiders and slavers, not bezerker warriors. Let's have an army that runs when it loses.

while a agree that more ranged poisoned weapons would be good, making the guns of basic infantry wound on 4+ means that they obliterate MCs. i know it doesnt fit the fluff and i know it doesnt feel right, but cant you just make then S4?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
NEW UNIT - Eldar slave chorus. The Dark Space Elf answer to psykers will be a chorus of captured, screaming torutured Eldar slaves. Cause that would be cool and I couldn't post here without letting out some anti-elf venom.

this is a really good idea. you should come up with some rules for it.

Enforced: New troops, like conscripts. Cheap cannon fodder to distract while fast attacks attack fastly. Possibly a good use for spare figures from other armies. Maybe with one DE 'sergeant'/overseer.

while a agree that more ranged poisoned weapons would be good, making the guns of basic infantry wound on 4+ means that they obliterate MCs. i know it doesnt fit the fluff and i know it doesnt feel right, but cant you just make then S4?

They could always just make it something like assault 2 24". The weapon is supposed to be a constant stream of little crystal shards, so a high rate of fire would make it potent and fluffy. Even with a str of 3 and ap of 5 that rate of fire and range could make it pretty effective.

I agree; making the splinter rifles Assault 2, S 3, 24" range would markedly improve the offensive capability of the standard warrior while retaining their inherent fragility. It would still be relatively easy, with T 3 and Sv 5+, to kill them off, but they might be able to contribute effectively before their demise.

Also, this change to an assault weapon would contribute to the "fast piratical raider" theme they have. Running Raiders full of squads of riflemen would become more common, further making the actual play of the army meet the theme of the army.

Wish lists are always fun; the test is to try to keep your wishes from being overpowered....

Saldiven wrote:
Wish lists are always fun; the test is to try to keep your wishes from being overpowered....

I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of a power increase in the warrior squads. They are supposed to be fiercely offensive and potent, but fragile and prone to fleeing the battle if it appears to be going poorly. A twelve or thirteen point basic warrior wouldn't be too expensive for me personally. They are the least populous race in all of 40k, they shouldn't really be a fodder horde.

Just combat Drugs all round for me.

Seriously, why limit them to Wyches? And to keep the Wyches super mental, allow them two doses.

Dark Eldar are piratical raiders while 40K is generally setup to handle pitched battles. I think the biggest changes needs to be made in this area so that Dark Eldar play more true to their theme.

A disruption table that forces some enemy units into reserve would be very fluffy, depicting how Dark Eldar would hit a moving column rather than waiting for the army to assemble en masse.

Allowing certain DE units to enter from any table edge would also let them fight more in character.

The Warp Portal Generator is one of the fluffiest things DE can field, but it needs to be made more user friendly with fewer restrictions.

Troops
I would LOVE to see a option for pistol and close combat weapon for warriors. Rumor has it that splinter rifles will be str 3 ap5 Assault 2 18"range. Im not sure I want to see many more changes then that save maybe an option to carry a dissentagrator for warrior squads (tho thats probably wishful thinking.)

HQ
Give 1 more attack to the Lords and that should about do it.

Elites
Like others have said make Grotesques usable as for the mandrakes the only thing really needed to fix them is a squad leader option. As for wyches, maybe the option to buy which combat drugs you want? and if for crying out loud why do they, as dedicated assualt troops and gladiators extrodinare, only have 1 attack each?!

Transports
I like them as they are, but maybe modify some of the upgrades. Also maybe have them start at 35pts with a splinter cannon with the option for darklance for 20 points?

Fast Attack
Rework hellions completely and totally. Reavers, make up their mind, if their assualt troops give em a 3+ save and maybe another attack, if they are shooty give em a better base weapon.

Heavy Support
Ravagers dont need a change (cept for maybe a option to make them not open topped (forcefield maybe?), make the talos faster so its usable again, and rework the scourges. Make em jet-packs and maybe give them the options for blasters and shredders.

Overall
Maybe find a way to replace the old slaves for VP system with a slaves for KP system. like 10 or so models captured =1 KP. This would help us overcome a MAJOR disadvantage in KP missions.

Doctor Thunder wrote:
The Warp Portal Generator is one of the fluffiest things DE can field, but it needs to be made more user friendly with fewer restrictions.

One of the simplest improvements they could make to the DE WWP would be to simply give it the same rules as the old Ulthwe Strike Force's portal had. The carrier has a dead man switch; if he dies and lets go of the switch, the portal deploys right there rather.

This would allow the use of the WWP carrier more offensively along with the squad, rather than now, where DE have to plan strategies around balancing placing the portal correctly and keeping the carrier alive.

Let me make an additional point.

Assumptions:
-GW makes models to make money, and lists to sell models.

-DE players want a competitive list and also more DE players or at least interest in DE generally.

Question:
What do you see (besides rescults) in lists or new units that you would do to make DE more popular? As I see it now eldar are a niche army and DE players are a sub niche. How would you tweak the list/concept to make them more popular on the level of Tau/Necrons/other xenos scum?

One of the more popular ideas that non-DE players like (but DE players hate) is turning them into a sort of Slaneesh flavored chaos eldar.

The average player is more capable of getting their brain around that sort of fluff, as it merges two army concepts that the average player understands. If GW went in this direction with the fluff, it wouldn't bother me personally. Others may not agree.

As I mentioned earlier, the biggest single thing they could do to increase sales is to make the models better. I think most of us could agree with that, though that doesn't have anything to do with the list/concept.

Improving the fluff could do a lot to the army concept, I believe. Some people who play the game love reading all the stories and articles in the codex (I'm not one of them). If the fluff were expanded to the level that you see in the more successful codices, this would attract that niche of players to at least give them a try. This group of players has to be interested by the epic of the race's existance first and foremost. To do this, GW could expand upon the power struggle between various Kabals and the different sects of the DE: Archon/Kabal, Archite/Kult, Haemonculi, and the secretive Incubi. As I said earlier, expound upon the relationship with the "light kin." Is the occasional Dark Eldar born who retains his vestigal morals and eventually makes his way to a craftworld to be welcomed back to the light? How often are babes born of Eldar mothers who secretly crave the same darkness that led to the split?

From the list itself and the units that make it up, give what every player hopes for from his armies: potential variety. Create a list that has multiple, distinct possible army builds that can compete and have a chance to win any given game. Kabals, Kults, the player named Covens for Haemonculi, and maybe even an Incubi heavy list; mechanized, foot slogging, or portal based; whatever: just give us the opportunity for one competitive DE list to not look virtually identical to the next competitive DE list.

I could come up with loads of potential specific ideas for each unit choice; I'm sure we all could. But I stick to the basic premise that if GW made the models of good quality, the rules competitive, and the fluff compelling, then they would sell this list off the shelf.

I'd like to see new models, because that's the worst thing about the army.

Rules-wise, DE can win just fine.

But models? Ugh.

Yeah, I think everybody agrees with you there, JHDD. I can't tell you the number of times my DE models have given me bloody fingertips trying to get them out of the case.

I'm pretty ok with most of the rules for DE with a few exceptions that are relics of 3rd ed and are either worthless or a handicap in the current edition. Other than that, I just want to see GW give me a legitimate reason to take more than 3-4 different unit entries from the codex when making a competitive list. Seriously; my list consists of an Archon, Wyches, Warriors and Ravagers. Everything else either doesn't mesh well with the rest of the list, is completely over-pointed, or just plain sucks.

Saldiven wrote:One of the more popular ideas that non-DE players like (but DE players hate) is turning them into a sort of Slaneesh flavored chaos eldar.

The average player is more capable of getting their brain around that sort of fluff, as it merges two army concepts that the average player understands. If GW went in this direction with the fluff, it wouldn't bother me personally. Others may not agree.

Saldiven, I totally agree with you. This old-timer can vouch that the idea of Dark (Chaos) Eldar is what had the player base excited back in 1998. It was surprising when we received something different.

I'm not saying they should change the concept now. I'm all for supporting existing DE players the right way. But "evil-pirates-who-behave-how-Slaanesh-worshippers-would-but-who-aren't-technically-Slaanesh-worshippers" isn't the kind of iconic concept GW usually works with. You really shouldn't have to write a 100-word paragraph to explain an army concept. I'm very curious to see how GW handles the fluff and the overall positioning of the army...I think it's a deceptively hard task.

On the rules front, I agree with those who'd like to see WWPs be a key part of how the army operates. I don't know what could be more "fast attack" and fluffier than that. The problem there is that Daemons may have stolen some of that thunder even if the two armies operate differently.

Dark eldar are space slave traders ... so why not over rule the BGB ... in any mission DE can pick their board edge and wether to go first or second ... they can never clame objective only contest them in such missions they gain points for every Xpts of models they've captured ... yes this would make fighting necrons harder since they just phase out when captured but then you're fighting a slow ranged army with a fast CC army

I prefer to keep chaos out of it personally. Sure they will have a slaaneshi bent -- they are the unrepetant eldar that birthed slaaneh with their decadent ways -- but they should not be chaos worshipping eldar. That doesn't fit at all and I like the overall idea of the current DE (it just needs a lot more flushing out).

Basically they are the sneaky/rogue/devious evil of 40k and the pirate/raider/slaver/bio-wizard theme should be expanded on. I also hope they don't just become spikey eldar, they should be much more different on a greater scale then the differences between CSM and SM.

Things I'd like to see other then re-imagined and tweaked current units:
-Slaves. Have a troop unit of slaves and/or bullet catchers for certain units. Enslaved psychers or other specialists would be cool too.
-Monsters. Expand the idea of grotesques, warp beasts but introduce new monstrosities or warp creatures or even mounts. Doesn't have to be a space hydra or space manticore or even MCs at all but adding more of the beast master aspect of Dark Elves would be a unqiue addition to 40k.

Things I'd like to see with current units (other then totally new models).
-Incubi become elite choices. Show a bit more of the influence of the former striking scorpion phoenix lord.
-Retinue/HQ unit for Archon is a seprate, highly customizable unit akin to Inquistors.
-Wyches become Troops (or at least keep Archite giving this option). Try and seperate them from Harliquins which will probably be available as choices -- via extra rules or less special rules with a huge price discount (eiher way, as long as they are viable and remain one of the deadliest close combat units)
-Mandrakes become more resilient and more deadly. Making them something like assassins in fantasy DE would be cool too.
-Expanded rules on the Haemonculi and more of their creations (or make grotesques much more customizable).
-Expanded rules and options on the beastmaster and warpbeasts (more types of creatures -- would make a nice addition to the currently skimpy heavy slot).
-Fix Hellions to have a role or ability not already covered by jetbikes or wyches.
-Fix scourges. They need alot of work and are pretty meh.
-Warriors should have 2ccw to go with splinter rifle (ala CSMs) and/or option of an assault 'splinter carbine'.
-Reprice jetbikers to match current cost and trends. Troop option isn't a bad idea but is maybe too common nowadays.
-Web Way Portal stays in some form.
-Combat Drugs stays in some form.

Combination of the above makes for an army with a ton of list building options (ala Orks) but with a very distinct feel and capability to it.

I think the Dark Eldar should just consume souls.

Not sacrifice them to Slaanesh or something weird like that; just straight up pull apart your soul and devour it to replace their own souls which are being siphoned away by Slaanesh.

The catch is, as the Dark Eldar consume more and more souls they become even more quickly devoured, so they have to consume more and more souls to survive.
Now you have another reason for the race to be power-hungry; they need to be in a position of power to keep alive as time progresses.

I'm not sure how far off or close to the actual fluff this is, as I don't own a Dark Eldar codex. I like the general idea though. The Dark Eldar fluff definitely needs something, it's almost as bad as their models.

I seem to recall that originally, splinter rifles were assault 3. Much better than now, and the rest of the squad actually added up to something after the dark lances fired.

winterman wrote:I prefer to keep chaos out of it personally. Sure they will have a slaaneshi bent -- they are the unrepetant eldar that birthed slaaneh with their decadent ways -- but they should not be chaos worshipping eldar. That doesn't fit at all and I like the overall idea of the current DE (it just needs a lot more flushing out).

Basically they are the sneaky/rogue/devious evil of 40k and the pirate/raider/slaver/bio-wizard theme should be expanded on. I also hope they don't just become spikey eldar, they should be much more different on a greater scale then the differences between CSM and SM.

I'm not really advocating Chaos Eldar. But I think what's needed is a narrowing of concept and then an expansion of fluff based on that concept. The fact that you're able to mention all those themes just shows there's too much going on with the basic concept, IMO.

I'm not sure focusing on their piratical nature is enough either. After all, all Dark Eldar are Eldar pirates, but not all Eldar pirates are Dark Eldar. Like I said, I think there's a lot of constraints to work with. Fortunately, Phil Kelly's on the job.

I'd also like to say that GW never really closed the door on DE having Chaos taint at their core because of the Dark Father-Arhra hints.

Enter the Dark Eldar! Think they follow Chaos? You're wrong...they don't! Or do they?

I guess that's meant to be mysterious, but it just ends up being confusing. I'd expect them to take out the Arhra allusions, but then GW decided to add his mention back into the current Eldar codex. It kinda smells of something deliberate.

I would really like to see the Hellions get a big time boost. The idea of fellers sky boarding around lopping off heads is inspiring. Perhaps something like A2, S4 and furious charge. They would be glass hammers, but able to do some serious damage coming in. Another idea is give them something like "Heroic Intervention" to represent their ability to swoop into the battlefield and mess things up from the start. They are among my favorite units in terms of image and it would be nice to see them actually be worthwhile.

Chaos Eldar is a clear concept that is easy to understand.

I hope they go that direction, much as they did in WFB.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think the Dark Eldar should just consume souls.

Not sacrifice them to Slaanesh or something weird like that; just straight up pull apart your soul and devour it to replace their own souls which are being siphoned away by Slaanesh.

See, I like that because it's simple. DE are soul vampires. It's tight, more iconic and focused on their motivation. Piratical behavior then becomes a natural extension of the basic concept. I think you could build from that and make it natural and not confusing.

If you instead use "DE are pirates" as your core concept, you're really just describing their outward behavior, and IMO kind of takes you down the same problematic path they're in currently.

DE are pirates.
But why?
Well, let me explain to you their complicated relationship with Slaanesh..."

I'm not really advocating Chaos Eldar. But I think what's needed is a narrowing of concept and then an expansion of fluff based on that concept. The fact that you're able to mention all those themes just shows there's too much going on with the basic concept, IMO.

I'm not sure focusing on their piratical nature is enough either. After all, all Dark Eldar are Eldar pirates, but not all Eldar pirates are Dark Eldar. Like I said, I think there's a lot of constraints to work with. Fortunately, Phil Kelly's on the job.

Yeah, my chaos comment was directed at Saldiven's comment, not yours (as you posted after i typed up my post). I can agree that the concept is a bit ragged now and could use some cleaning up; I just don't want to see something like what CSM are to SM, spikey versions of Eldar units doesn't appeal to me.

The pirate aspect of the DE seems to follow from that need/desire to capture slaves for their souls; where as Eldar pirates are more privateering/miltaritic in their bent, AFAIK. I guess I'd love to see more of a focusing in on the slaver and soul stealing/manipulating aspect -- which is not something that is really covered in 40k as an army wide concept. Then the raiding aspect naturally follows from the slaver aspect -- gotta have raiders to have slaves.

I also don't see my list of themes as to broad, they seem to be pretty commonly linked in other games and what not (cryx, confrontation faction whose name escapes me, etc). Look at orks -- they have a lot of themes going on (pirates, looters, pure warriors, psychy tekk, etc etc) and no one seems to mind that. What the DE need to gel the themes together IMHO are better, more flushed out unit concepts, rules and models.

Chaos Eldar is a clear concept that is easy to understand.

I hope they go that direction, much as they did in WFB.

Chaos eldar is a boring concept that leads to stale ideas and units, IMHO. Plus, if they are gonna add any more chaos dexes it better damn well be LatD.

And my knowledge of WHFB is limited but isn't the connection to chaos for DE about the same as in 40k (eg limited at best).