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Yeah, I suppose what I'm reacting to isn't really the number of themes, but how they're currently handled in a scattershot way. Like you said, if you structure it properly the raiding is a natural action for soul vampires. The Haemonculi evolved out of the natural desire to perfect the soul stealing process. The kabals and cults are natural developments for a bunch of Eldar who've seen their society completely collapse, and a bunch of soul vampires whose thirst has led to complete selfishness and individual self-interest.

I think there may need to be a little tightening, but the pieces are probably mostly fine. They just need to be structured properly, putting the soul stealing obviously at the core. I suppose I'm just a stickler with creative concepting since it's part of what I do for a living.

Chaos Eldar would just be dull.

The idea that they kill other people to mask themselves from Slaanesh is far more interesting.

BYE

Actually I think you guys are on the right track. The soul stealing angle was touched upon in DE stories fluff-wise. I think filling it out a bit would make the DE far more interesting. Rule wise, I like the idea of being able to upgrade trops and/or vechiles to come in off any table edge. Follow the quick raiding force to it's logical end... They swoop in from all sides to catch the foe unprepared. Or else why fly around in those disposable plastic coffins they call raiders?

The problem with Eldar Pirates is that they suffer from the Wood Elves problem - they become a scenario, not an army.

Also, how do the Dark Eldar manage to catch everyone unprepared, all the time?
There are at least a few armies that could avoid falling into something like that.

I think allowing some units to have scout would be a good idea though. It does fit with the theme.

As far as a game-play mechanics go, I think the dark eldar are pretty close to where they should be. Glass hammer and all that.

I'd like to see some interesting stealth/scout type abilities in there as well. Mandrakes maybe becoming "stealth" sybarites like the Assassins in Dark Elf armies. Lots of hit and run type stuff too for reavers and/or hellions. Scout for Reavers. Reavers/helions as troops with X type of character (think DE kult of speed). Expanded abilities for Haemonculli. Instead of psychic powers, make them mobile combat drug dispensers giving units bonuses and drawbacks. I'd also like to see a Vyper Equivalent in DE armies that can be fielded in squadrons.

Fluff wise- I think you should definitely expand on the Eldar/Dark Eldar relationship and how the Harlequins figure into the mix.

Model-line: well, scarp it and start from scratch (minus Lelith and Drazhar)

Orkeosaurus wrote:Also, how do the Dark Eldar manage to catch everyone unprepared, all the time?
There are at least a few armies that could avoid falling into something like that.

Yeah, I have a lot of trouble seeing why DE would slave raid against Necrons or Tyranids, or even Orks.

Which is why Chaos Eldar >> Eldar Pirate Raiders

I think that's a pretty simple fluff answer. They wouldn't be slave raids so much as outright aggression. They're still xenophobic Eldar who look down on other species. Besides, Orks might make useful slaves for certain purposes. Tyranids might be pretty interesting to a Haemonculus examiner. Necrons...they're the ancient enemy.

But again, I think there is a point here that the piracy and slave raiding should probably be positioned as types of actions they sometimes take, and not their raison d'etre.

gorgon wrote:But again, I think there is a point here that the piracy and slave raiding should probably be positioned as types of actions they sometimes take, and not their raison d'etre.

Exactly. DE should be an army, not a scenario.

I mean, who wants to always play Romans starting between a woods and a lake...

Though I agree with everyone saying that Dark Eldar needs to be an army not a scenario. I don't believe chaos eldar is the answer. I would like them to have their own fluff outside of evil = chaos. As for what the DE need. What they really need is more appealing infantry models and a reason to take something else besides raider squads and ravagers.

Give 'em new models.

Make all vehicles fast, open-toped skimmers with armour 10 all around for transports, which improves to 11 front and side for the heavier stuff. Also allow anyone rideing inside to fire, no matter how far they moved, excluding heavy weapons. Give all units hit-and-run, Heavily armoured units should get a 4+ save, and splinter cannons should be assault 3. Make it so that if the fight is on their terms, they will probably win, but if not, the drop like gaunts to Ordinance.

DD and HBMC have both posted on here, yet somehow nothing is on fire. Maybe this stew needs a pinch of shumagorath or a sprig of nurglitch...

Let's do a comprehensive review, shall we?

HQs:
Really, overall, the Lord, Wych Lords and haemonculi are pretty much fine as they are. Appropriate abilities, costs and weapon option, so no problem there. The retinues seem appropriate, too, and I especially appreciate the ability to mix warriors (with 2 heavy weapons!) and incubi together.

As a tweaking note, the incubi should probably cost FEWER points if they swap their punisher for a blaster or shredder, not more.

Grotesques need to be reworked. I think streamlining their special rules to standard FNP is a no-brainer, for starters. After that, though...I don't see any real role for them. They're made for melee, but so much else does it better than they would, so they'd need something significant to set them apart. Really low cost wouldn't help, as they'll still get beat by most units in assault. Fearless won't help much, either. I suppose giving them some kind of poisoned blade would help and fit with the haemonculi theme...+4 seems too weak and +2 too strong, so a weird +3 poison may be about right?

For elites, I think the random drug effects should go away, and squads just pay for whatever ability they want. The current effects are fine, though, and should stay. While melee specialists, wyches aren't faring too well against the newer armies out there (and the 5th edition melee rules hurt some, too). The easiest answer I can see is to allow another agonizer in the squad as an upgrade on a regular wych. This gives them a chance to inflict enough wounds to stay in the fight for a few rounds (and maybe win) as opposed to tarpitting units like in previous editions.

Mandrakes will probably switch to something like a warrior squad with pistols/ccws, two special weapon choices and syrabite upgrade, infiltrate, stealth and scouts. Gets rid of their crazy deployment rules and brings them in line with the current universal rules, gives them the same ability to get in close and charge right away if wanted, and actually gives them the ability to DO something if they attack (as opposed to just dying like they do now).

Warp beasts are fine, really, as they are, but no one takes them. To be really effective, you need several units, and probably a mostly dismounted force. Remove the 0-1 restriction and let them count as either elites or fast attack, regardless of whether or not wyches are taken. Spamming them just coughs up a bunch of easy kill points, but removing the crazy restrictions just allows for more freedom, and that's always a good thing.

Troops: The comments on splinter rifles becoming 18" assault 2 is about right, but more importantly dark eldar should be able to fire from their skimmers even if they have moved. As is, that kind of kills their ability to act as pirate raiders zipping around and shooting stuff.

I think the warrior and raider squad options currently in use will be merged into one selection, which will look something like this: squad consists of 5-20 warriors, same stats but 7 points each, can take 1 heavy and 1 special and an additional heavy and special if 10-20 warriors. Raider may be taken if 10 or fewer warriors. This encourages raider squads to be full strength, which seems to be what they're going for in other new codexes.

If haemonculi are taken, an option for slaves in the troop section should be allowed. Either a syrabite task master or optional haemonculi upgrade. Probably get a poor leadership but automatically pass with the penalty of a model being removed (commisar-style rule). IG-ish stats, pistol and ccw, 4 points each, 5-20? Not sure what the point would be, but I'm sure some players and modellers would appreciate the option. Maybe a screen for a mostly dismounted army, I guess?

Fast attack has been hit pretty well above...just a little cheaper on the reavers and remove the random-effects of the drugs and they'll be more handy, completely rework the hellions. In some ways, I see these two units as competing for the same slot...they're both supposed to be fast, lightly armored and assaulty. To make the hellions effective, though, they'll need to be dangerous in melee AND cheap enough to take many of them, as they'll definitely get shot to pieces advancing.

As for heavies, I don't even play with the Talos, so I won't bother with it. The scourges the JSJ ability as mentioned above, and a significant price reduction, to even remotely be worth considering.

I have a feeling that night shields may go the way of the disruption pod and obscure the vehicle at over 18" or something. This would better fit the fluff and be a boon for the DE overall, I think, as they really suffer from such fragile vehicles. Raiders will need to drop in cost slightly (40 points, maybe?), and somehow allow better shooting from passengers.

Trying to get them to feel like a "raid" while not overpowering them will be tricky. Giving them the outflank ability would be too powerful...perhaps something like the chaos demon rules? Give the army the option to split in halves and drive half on the first turn and the rest come in as reserves? Everything comes in on turn one? Those sorts of things may help against some armies but hurt against others (like podding marines).

I agree that mandrakes, grots, hellions, scourges need reworking..hehe..whats left? Since they are raiders and take slaves maybe there could be some rule where when a unit kills models in combat on a certain roll they can take them as a slave. The slaves wouldnt do anything but would be added as a model that could be used to soak up wounds.

There are a lot of good ideas here. I do like the idea of the Archon have a retinue like the Inquisitors..could be a mix of different things like Haemonculi, really mutated grots, some incubi.

I think eldar and dark eldar should trade troop choices. The eldar should have the guys who sit back and shoot like DE warriors can. DE should be just like the guardians with their assault weapons. DE should be constantly moving IMHO as they are raiders. Raiders don't sit around with their thumb up their butts.

Mandrakes have so much potential but just don't cut it. They really need a leader with a power weapon or something.

Hellions..sigh. Who knows what the hell to do with them. I see them as supposedly hit and run type of troops but they just die.

Talos- Move faster!

Wyches I think are ok as they are.

Scourges-need completely revamping. Why have jump pack troops with heavy weapons? Splinter cannons were ok but something needs to be done. Maybe some shorter range assault weapons with some decent ap. As a heavy choice they are just worthless.

Grotesques-Maybe give them some kind of random abilities and maybe a small minus to leadership tests if you lose combat v/s them.

I'll try to think of a few other things.

I think an interesting option would be to have the splinter cannon count as both a heavy and special weapon. It doesn't match too well with blasters and shredders, but troop selections getting the option to take nothing but splinter cannons would make them a useful anti-horde platform.

ShumaGorath wrote:

while a agree that more ranged poisoned weapons would be good, making the guns of basic infantry wound on 4+ means that they obliterate MCs. i know it doesnt fit the fluff and i know it doesnt feel right, but cant you just make then S4?

They could always just make it something like assault 2 24". The weapon is supposed to be a constant stream of little crystal shards, so a high rate of fire would make it potent and fluffy. Even with a str of 3 and ap of 5 that rate of fire and range could make it pretty effective.

Pretty sure its called the Eldar shuricat.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

while a agree that more ranged poisoned weapons would be good, making the guns of basic infantry wound on 4+ means that they obliterate MCs. i know it doesnt fit the fluff and i know it doesnt feel right, but cant you just make then S4?

They could always just make it something like assault 2 24". The weapon is supposed to be a constant stream of little crystal shards, so a high rate of fire would make it potent and fluffy. Even with a str of 3 and ap of 5 that rate of fire and range could make it pretty effective.

Pretty sure its called the Eldar shuricat.

Dude, this thread has been dead for like two years. If you didnt notice, DE have been updated already.

Any news on a DE release date?

I also really liked the Slave unit idea. They should probably have about (or slightly better) rules than (ork) grots, with about 15-20 in a unit, lead by a slave dealer/Haemonculus. Maybe the Haemonculus could kill the slaves for pain tokens/ regen. wounds?

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.

And a reminder that 40k discussion should take place in the relevant 40k board. Ta.