Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So. I have no idea how this is done, but recently I watched my buddy play a game against an IG player who was running one. So... how does this work, and where do you take the stats from (Daemon or Witch Hunters... they are probably the same in both codexes) and the points cost (are those also the same as the codexes?)

As far as I know, there are no rules on taking allies from other codexes... but I just started playing the game, so I'm ready to admit there's plenty that I don't know.

Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters can be taken as allies in imperial armies (space marines, guard or the other inquisition book). If you look in both of those books they tell you what you can do.

So for instance if you look in the Daemon Hunters book you can take daemon hunters as allies for your guard.

You can take
0-1 HQ
0-1 Elite
0-2 Troops
0-1 Fast Attack

The person playing the imperial guard had to have taken an inquisitor lord (because it says that you must have an inquisitor to buy an assassin) as a hq choice, and an assassin as an elites choice.

Yes he can the rules for taking on in other armies is in the Deamon hunters, or Whichhunters Codex.

To do so though he would have had to have taken an Inquisitor Lord in addition to the assassin

You can take Imperial Assassins ( Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus or Culexus) in ANY Imperial army. It says so int the Assassins Codex.

I've seen nothing official that says the Assassins Codex is invalid.

The entries in the DH and WH Codexes cannot, by nature, invalidate an entire codex... only how the Assassins work for THEIR armies.

According to the Codex: Assassins

"Assassins can be included in any Sace Marine, Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle army. Assassins count as one of your Elites choices, and you may never have more than one Assassin in your army."

Eric

Thing is, why would he use a Vindicare?

Fafnir wrote:Thing is, why would he use a Vindicare?

Shooting into combat to pick off powerfists.

Shooting into Nob bikes to kill specific models with one wound already.

Shooting vehicles with turbo penetrator (str 3 + 3d6 + rending d3) (actually, with BS 5 this guy is better than a lascannon, especially a guard lascannon).

increasing coversaves of shot models by 1.

5th ed Vindicares are actually a step up from where they use to be. Not sure if they are better or worse than a callidus. 5th ed Fearless does make you really have to think about taking the CC assassins though. Fearless marines are better than fearless assassins.

Fafnir wrote:Thing is, why would he use a Vindicare?

Where did he specify what Assassin he's taking.

...or are you trying to downplay the effectiveness of a Vindicare?

Eric

Most likely pointing out that there are better assassins than the Vindicare. He will almost never make his points back, don't forget the change to Sniper Rifles.

while someone like the Eversor gives IG some good counter assault
or the Callidus can be used to pull an enemy unit in a different direction to help line up shots against it and/or jump out and put the hurt on a unit before dying
or Culexus if your going against Eldar

MagickalMemories wrote:Where did he specify what Assassin he's taking.

Uh... in the title.

Anyways, if you're taking one from WH or DH, you also need to take an Inquisitor Lord, as Temple Assassins can only be taken if your army includes an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord.

I've seen nothing official that says the Assassins Codex is invalid.

GW doesn't officially invalidate any codex, you can use 2nd ed stuff if you want in your games. Yet go to a tournament and there's usually a list of valid codexes. C: Assassins is not on those lists.

MinMax wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Where did he specify what Assassin he's taking.

Uh... in the title.

Anyways, if you're taking one from WH or DH, you also need to take an Inquisitor Lord, as Temple Assassins can only be taken if your army includes an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord.

LOL
Pfft.

PWNED.

Brainfarted and missed that simple fact. : )

While I agree on WH (since their codex differs from Codex Assassins), and DH (they aren't even MENTIONED in C:A), Codex:Assassins, for the record, still carries the rules re: IG and SM.

Also,

livingregret wrote:don't forget the change to Sniper Rifles.

If the rules in the BGB differ from those in the codex, we use the ones in the codex. If the rules in the codex say to refer to sniper weapons in the BGB, then we use the 5e rules. Codex > BGB.

Eric

winterman wrote:

I've seen nothing official that says the Assassins Codex is invalid.

GW doesn't officially invalidate any codex, you can use 2nd ed stuff if you want in your games. Yet go to a tournament and there's usually a list of valid codexes. C: Assassins is not on those lists.

Any new codex invalidates the previous codex for the same army.

I've never seen an "allowed codexes" or "disallowed codexes" list. I've only seen "Allowed armies" and "disallowed armies" lists.

Eric

Shotgun wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Thing is, why would he use a Vindicare?

Shooting into combat to pick off powerfists.

It's an ability that, when it works, it works wonderfully, but the thing is, it's not reliable (since it'll only wound half the time), and there are more priority targets out there.

For the same abount of points as a vindicare, most armies can buy enough models to do enough damage to more then make up for the damage that a powerfist would cause.

Shooting into Nob bikes to kill specific models with one wound already.

Since the vindicare has a 10% chance of actually causing a single wound against a nob biker, it is an incredibly poor choice to take a vindicare against nob bikers.

Shooting vehicles with turbo penetrator (str 3 + 3d6 + rending d3) (actually, with BS 5 this guy is better than a lascannon, especially a guard lascannon).

That's one shot. When you consider that you can pay less and get more of the heavy weaponry needed to bust open tanks, it's a bit of a waste.

increasing coversaves of shot models by 1.

A valid point, but not enough to make him worth taking, especially since you'll only ever use that ability 6 times in the whole battle, and it'll only serve its purpose less then half the time. It would be a great rule to have if the vindicare had other abilities that made him worth using, but since he doesn't, this is really just a huge waste.

If I'm taking any Assassin in an IG army, it's going to be an Eversor because he actually does something that I can't do with more guns.

I'm 100% with the people saying the Vindicare isn't worth it. If your opponent is fielding him, thank your stars.

Exactly.

For roughly the same points as a Vindicare, you can field a Demolisher or Indirect Basilisk.

Demolishers and Basilisks are potentially game-winners, as they can flatten nasty units like Nob Bikers or Marines in a single shot.

Vindicares never do that.

If you wanted to make him worth his cost, he'd have to be able to choose from his ammo options each turn and have unlimited uses, akin to Sternguard. Even then I think he might fall short of the "units that make the grade" bar.

Totally agreed.

It'd take that much flexibility for me to consider a Vindicare, but I'd want him in a short-range WH Sisters list, not a shooty Guard list.

He'd also need to have a decent chance of actually making his shots actoually wound something. What's the point of having all that nifty weaponry when you'll only ever wound half the time? For a guy who's trained in shots meant to kill in a single go, and only gets 6 shots in the entire game if he's lucky, you really miss out on a lot. It can't be that easy to make the Vindicare overpowered. GW should really just go all out if they ever decide to update him.

But wait, getting back to the YDMC aspect of this:

Is the 3rd Ed. Codex: Assassins legal?

I seem to remember a GW FAQ invalidating the Codex when Codex: Deamonhunters was first released. But I can't find that FAQ on the GW site. Did it ever exist, and (assuming it did) does the fact that it's no longer hosted mean the Assassin codex is legal?

yeah,
I thought the easy way to work out if a codex is legal is to check if it's still being sold?
which it isn't!

Panic...

If so, where does that put 3E Codex: Sisters of Battle?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If so, where does that put 3E Codex: Sisters of Battle?

um...illegal?

A shot at a nob biker with:

Hellfire round: Hits on 2+, wounds on 2+, AP 2 negates his armor/FNP (which the exitus rifle always hits with), so he's either going on his cover save (reduced to 5+ with the spy mask rule) or his invulnerable save (which i believe is a 5+). 5 in 6 to hit, 5 in 6 he'll wound with the hellfire round; 2/3 of the time it wounds. 50/108 he'll put on single wound on; 46% of the time. You get to place the wound, which means that you can remove nobs, as well as place it on an already wounded model (throwing the wound allocation for the nob biker player out the window), in addition to the pinning check.

Shield breaker round: Ignores invulnerable save, in addition to the AP 2 ignoring armor and FNP; 5/6 will hit, 1/2 will wound, 1/3 will be ignored (5+ cover). 5/36 will wound, which is 13.88%. You get to place the wound, which means that you can remove nobs, as well as place it on an already wounded model (throwing the wound allocation for the nob biker player out the window), in addition to the pinning check.

Turbo Penetrator round: two wounds for the price of one shot. 5/6 hit, 1/2 hit, 2/3 pass through the saves. You place your two wounds; 13.88% wound. Assign the wounds to the Painboy; get rid of the FNP and make the job of your lasguns a little easier.

***

That said, I'll agree that there are probably better ways to spend 110 points than on than a Vindicare. But for decapitation of models of great import, no one does it better than the Vindicare.

Panic wrote:yeah,
I thought the easy way to work out if a codex is legal is to check if it's still being sold?
which it isn't!

Panic...

Well, then, if that's the case, then the previous edition Ork codex would still be legal.
There's a hobby store on my way home that has 5 or 6 still for sale.

To determine legality, you just need to check 2 factors.

1) Has GW declared it no longer tournament legal (See EoT)
2) Is there a newer codex that replaces it (Ork, eldar, Space Marine, Sisters of Battle, etc).

If EITHER is answered with a "Yes," then the codex isn't good anymore.

Eric

Telion is essentially a Vindicare assassin that is actually worth the points.

bryantsbears wrote:A shot at a nob biker

That said, I'll agree that there are probably better ways to spend 110 points than on than a Vindicare. But for decapitation of models of great import, no one does it better than the Vindicare.

The problem is that you need to buy a 45-pt Inquisitor Lord with 18+pts in Retinue to get the Vindicare. So that's an extra 63 pts for the Vindicare. So you need to spend 173 pts to take a Vindicare.

Now, if you're taking Mystics as defense against Deep Strikers anyways, then the extra cost is only +31 pts, as you'd normally only take a 20-pt Inquisitor with 2 Mystics instead of a Lord with 3. So the effective cost of a Vindicare is actually 143 pts.

Is he worth 143 pts? No, not really. 6 shots at Nob Bikers at ~50% or ~27% aren't very good.


By comparison, I like to take "stripper" Demolishers with only the Hull HB. These are a mere 163 pts. Firing them at Nob Bikers, I Hit 1/3 of the time, and scatter up to 3" 42% of the remainder, so I hit my primary target at least 3/5 of the time. As Bikes have huge bases, I probably hit the unit 90% of the time. S10 wounds on a 2+, AP2 negates saves, S10 negates FNP, so 83% of whatever is hit simply evaporates. And it's a 5" pie plate that potentially hits multiple models. And being AV14/13/11, it's going to hang around blocking LOS to softer stuff for quite a while.

This is why the Vindicare is useless in a Guard shooting army.


For the same points premium, an Eversor costs 95+31 = 126 pts. He has *great* chances to blenderize something like a Carnifex, Wraithlord, or handful of Terminators and instantly earn his points back.

That is why the Eversor rocks.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
I thought the easy way to work out if a codex is legal is to check if it's still being sold?
which it isn't!

Panic...

Well, then, if that's the case, then the previous edition Ork codex would still be legal.
There's a hobby store on my way home that has 5 or 6 still for sale.

To determine legality, you just need to check 2 factors.

1) Has GW declared it no longer tournament legal (See EoT)
2) Is there a newer codex that replaces it (Ork, eldar, Space Marine, Sisters of Battle, etc).

If EITHER is answered with a "Yes," then the codex isn't good anymore.

Eric

yeah,
are you seriously starting to bring RAW to a new level of shopHammer?
If the hobby store on your way home is still selling out of date codex, the hobby store on your way home obviously sucks...

If your really in doubt if your codex is legal... ask a GW employee in person in a store or on the phone.
Codex: assassins... No
3rd ed. Codex: sisters of battle... No
Codex: Squats.... No
Codex: ar$e monkeys.... No

Panic...

Panic wrote:If your really in doubt if your codex is legal... ask a GW employee in person in a store or on the phone.

"Ask the redshirt..."

Hahahaa!!!

Arbalest wrote:Telion is essentially a Vindicare assassin that is actually worth the points.

Telion is easier to kill. All you need is range and line of sight.

At DD: And I'm not doubting that the the Kool-Aid man is where it's at. The vindicare does have his uses, is all.

Assigning wounds is nothing to sniffle at.