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Panic wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
I thought the easy way to work out if a codex is legal is to check if it's still being sold?
which it isn't!

Panic...

Well, then, if that's the case, then the previous edition Ork codex would still be legal.
There's a hobby store on my way home that has 5 or 6 still for sale.

To determine legality, you just need to check 2 factors.

1) Has GW declared it no longer tournament legal (See EoT)
2) Is there a newer codex that replaces it (Ork, eldar, Space Marine, Sisters of Battle, etc).

If EITHER is answered with a "Yes," then the codex isn't good anymore.

Eric

yeah,
are you seriously starting to bring RAW to a new level of shopHammer?
If the hobby store on your way home is still selling out of date codex, the hobby store on your way home obviously sucks...

If your really in doubt if your codex is legal... ask a GW employee in person in a store or on the phone.
Codex: assassins... No
3rd ed. Codex: sisters of battle... No
Codex: Squats.... No
Codex: ar$e monkeys.... No

Panic...

Dude... Take a step back and a deep breath.
I didn't get p!ssy with you, and there's no reason for you to do so with me.
All I did was directly answer your post.

YOU SAID that, "[You] thought the easy way to work out if a codex is legal is to check if it's still being sold?"
Using that logic, I showed you how it fails.

Using MY logic, the examples you listed are misleading.
Codex: Assassins has never been replaced or officially (to the best of my knowledge) listed as obsolete.
Codex: SoB has been replaced (and renamed) with Codex: WH.
Codex: Squats doesn't matter, as GW has officially stated that Squats no longer exist (i.e. obsolete)
I've never even heard of Codex: ar$e monkeys. A quick search shows nothing on the GW site for them (I tried with the "$" and with an "s").

As for the following:

If your really in doubt if your codex is legal... ask a GW employee in person in a store or on the phone.

You've been on here long enough to know that the moment you try to bring a redshirt or phone-troll into the equation to support your "argument," you're as good as lost.

All I'm stating are simple facts. No attitude (well, maybe a little surrounding the codex you made up... but just a little).

Can you respond without attitude and with real facts, rather than making up asinine facts and attempting to belittle or argue with someone who's disagreeing with you?

Eric

@bb: while assigning wounds is nice, it only matters if you're doing 1 wound.

If you're decimating the target, wound allocation matters not at all.

If you're obliterating the target, wound allocation becomes entirely moot.

1) Has GW declared it no longer tournament legal

Below are various GT rules that make it hard to justify using Codex: Assassins

Armies must follow all restrictions on army selection from their own Codex.

Only armies from the following Codexes may be taken at the Grand Tournament:

Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Blood Angels - White Dwarf 329-330
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Daemonhunters
Codex: Witch Hunters
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Orks
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Chaos Daemons

If you army includes C:Assassin units, then it isn't an army from the above codexes, now is it? Also including the assassins is using restictions from another codex as well.

These army lists will be used with the following addendums:

There's other ones but the ones I've listed are addenums allowing allies (presumably due to the statement already quoted about using restrictions from their own codex).

Space Marine armies may use Inquisitorial allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

Imperial Guard armies may use Inquisitorial allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

Inquisitorial armies may take Space Marine or Imperial Guard allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

Seems like a serious stretch of the imagination that C:Assassins is somehow legal for a GT, but feel free to strech yours if you like.

@Winterman: "It doesn't say that I can't..."

I guess the main question has been answered and for the most part. I would look to RTT and GT as being standard game play for pick up games. Now if somebody wants to use something out of the norm then I might let it slid unless it was being mis used.

As far as the worth of the vindi, I guess it all comes down to the needs of the player. Over all I have thought about using him because a game is not won with odds. Though odds can direct the flow but you never know when that one thing might bit you in the .

If they gave him two shoots again that would really up his worth. Another thing would be to change the shield breaker back to the way it was. Now I really dont want to talk about his worth and what he can do. Though he has done a hell of a lot in the past 40 eds.

1. Snipped the driver to the WW.

2. My best shoot ever, Shield breaker on the harlie HQ, and turbo round dropped him in hth with my HQ. The guy about flipped because nothing and I mean nothing allowed you to target in hth. Oh except the vindi of which started it in his write up.

Well I could go on but we all know of the past and we are in 5th now.

Assassin

Evesor
Callid
Vindi
Cellux

In order as to what I would use the most as of now.

@Winterman

Gotta say, I was prepared to defend against your initial point, as C:A is not an army in and of itself... So, I saw it as outside what you were posting.

The following is what convinced me:

Space Marine armies may use Inquisitorial allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

Imperial Guard armies may use Inquisitorial allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

Inquisitorial armies may take Space Marine or Imperial Guard allies as defined in Codex: Daemonhunters or Codex: Witch Hunters

It specifies what you CAN do (No, JHDD, you know me better than to think I'd resot to THAT arguement. LOL). This is the kicker for me.

So, for official GW events, C:A is unusable.

Now, that being said, I'm still not convinced that it should be disallowed in casual play. My reasoning is that GW has allowed and/or disallowed things in the past that were inconsistent... and, aside from the info you posted (which it specifies are for tournies), GW has been silent about them for casual play (as opposed to, say, squats).

One example is Tank Company in 'Ard Boyz. TC armies are invalid in the currect tournament scene, but they allowed it for 'Ard Boyz.

I can tell you that, in our group, unless you're playing DH or WH, we allow Assassins without an Inquisitor.

Thanks for the clarification, WM.

Eric

yeah,
MM, dude what I said was in jest, and most people can see when I stopped listing serious out of date codex... sorry if you take offence, but I find the whole situation of people defending out of date codex a bit sad...

To be honest in casual games I don't have a problem with any imperial player asking to include a assassin in their list with or without a inq/lord... seems fluffy that imperials call in some exotic support from time to time.

Panic...

Thing is, the IG doesn't have the authority to request support from the Officio Assassinorum.

Of course, I see no reason why the Inquisitor involved in signing the assassin on to the job would have to be knee deep in the battle. He could be up in some giant space cruiser, watching the fight from above.

For casual play, whatever you agree upon with your opponent is what you play. That means LatD, Kroot Mercs, Armageddon PDF, Traits Marines, Eldar Craftworlds, and Chaos Legions are all game.

Of course, once you head down that road, you might as well simply play Apocalypse and make it more interesing...

yeah,
I say allowing a Space marine player to take a assassin isn't on the road to crazy town apocalypse.
The points value/rules for assassins are in a current codex.
Its just allowing a minor lapse in what is still otherwise a competitive game. and if he wins it's a fair win.

Panic...

One thing I would look at is if the assassin is the same in the DH/WH as they are in the C/A. If there is a difference then I would rule that the update from the DH/WH voids the use of the C/A.

Then again pick up games are better with odd things going on in them.

The Imperial Assassins haven't changed name or basic function since 2E / 3E, so it's reasonable to conclude that DH/WH replaces C:A

Yeah, but the problem with that is you set yourself up for other, just as reasonable, retorts.

For example... You say that Assassins are in WH & DH, so those should override the C:A.

Okay. On that same stretch, however, Inquisitors & retinues are in C:WH, and it came after C: DH so, if TFG wanted to press you on it, he could say that the C: DH Inquisitor is obsolete and the best defense you would have aganist that "argument" is a fluff one (different Ordo - Malleus vs. Xenos), but it doesn't change the fact that he did the same thing you did... Say it's obsolete because it's in a newer codex.

Again... I'm not stating that's the point *I* would take. I'm just saying that someone wanting to be difficult could do it, and would be following the same guidelines you set forth re: C:A.

Eric

Not at all, because the entry in C: WH is "Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord", not "Inquisitor Lord". That is a army list entry difference, not a Fluff difference.

Otherwise, do you conflate a "Tactical Marine" with an "Assault Marine"? Or a "Chaos Marine"?

MagickalMemories wrote:Yeah, but the problem with that is you set yourself up for other, just as reasonable, retorts.

For example... You say that Assassins are in WH & DH, so those should override the C:A.

Okay. On that same stretch, however, Inquisitors & retinues are in C:WH, and it came after C: DH so, if TFG wanted to press you on it, he could say that the C: DH Inquisitor is obsolete and the best defense you would have aganist that "argument" is a fluff one (different Ordo - Malleus vs. Xenos), but it doesn't change the fact that he did the same thing you did... Say it's obsolete because it's in a newer codex.

Again... I'm not stating that's the point *I* would take. I'm just saying that someone wanting to be difficult could do it, and would be following the same guidelines you set forth re: C:A.

Eric

You need to remember that the Inquisitors in both codecies have a few differences between them, as well as the different names of the two units.

First: I was at work and going by memory. It's been 6+ months since I've used ANY Inquisitor.
Second: I believe I stated fairly emphatically that I'd never make that argument, regardless.

Oh, and John... I have made that mistake before. Turns out you're better off Assaulting Tactical Marines than you are Assault Marines. LOL


Eric

Heh, no problem - I had to pull my Codex to check

MagickalMemories wrote:You can take Imperial Assassins ( Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus or Culexus) in ANY Imperial army. It says so int the Assassins Codex.

Am I reading this right? I can take an assassin in 5th edition so long as my army is on the Emperor's payroll? I need to confirm this before I make a new list.

Bobbles wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:You can take Imperial Assassins ( Vindicare, Eversor, Callidus or Culexus) in ANY Imperial army. It says so int the Assassins Codex.

Am I reading this right? I can take an assassin in 5th edition so long as my army is on the Emperor's payroll? I need to confirm this before I make a new list.

No you are not reading this right. You are also not reading the dates of the previous posts.

Is this a new Record for Necromancy?

Nah, I realized the posts were 2 years old, which is why I asked. AFAIK the allies between WH/GK and IG/SM don't play nice with each other anymore.

the feth? please don't necro threads, I got all excited then about having terminators in my IG army :(

Sasori wrote:Is this a new Record for Necromancy?

I think 5 years or so in the mosh pit is the record, actually.

bryantsbears wrote:

Arbalest wrote:Telion is essentially a Vindicare assassin that is actually worth the points.

Telion is easier to kill. All you need is range and line of sight.

At DD: And I'm not doubting that the the Kool-Aid man is where it's at. The vindicare does have his uses, is all.

Assigning wounds is nothing to sniffle at.

You need to kill 4 or more scouts before him, and they have 3+ cover saves.

<thread terminated; please do not disturb threads that have been peacefully resting for over a month>