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Right, just been educated as to what Chipmunking during a Tournament is, namely trying to take another player out of the running for the Overall prize by narfing their softscores (painting and that) down.

Now, also combine what I tend to see a rather depressing amount of on Dakka, and that is whinging about the eventual winner. He Who Shall Not Be Named was my first (but by no means only) experience of this, when he lead the seeming mass whinging about the guy from the Wrecking Crew who won the 'Ardboyz.

And then we had a report that a member of the Wrecking Crew had been knackered from the start by an allegedly snooty TO who just didn't like his army. By the way, I am really sorry to keep using the Wrecking Crew as examples. This isn't part of some hidden agenda behind this thread, it's just they are the ones most recent and indeed infamous enough that you, dear reader, should know what I'm referencing.

So, between worrying whether your list is 'optimal' or not, being ragged on should you happen to win (which if things are to be believed will NEVER be because you earnt it) or feeling persectued etc, how exactly do you manage to have fun? I have only played in one Tournament, and that was more than enough for me. I wound up playing our local Beardmaster (I travelled to Nottingham for this...) a complete berk with a Gnoblar list who was pretty much TFG, and because of the first two games, wound up on the bottom table against someone who didn't stand a chance. Thus, it is fair to say that although not exactly Tournament experienced, I have my reasons for not attending.

But then, there is the upside of just getting in games against new opponents. Yay, always a good thing, I reckon we can all agree on that one. But to you guys who do them regularly, how often do you find your experience ruined by TFG, beardies etc? I'm not looking to be converted at all, but I feel I must be missing something. Granted, I can see your repeated attendance as making sense if Tournies are you main source of gaming fun, due to no local store or group. But when you have a gaming circle etc, what is it that, despite the problems (Well, what I see to be problems) keeps you paying to enter them?

And as I said, there is no hidden agenda here. I'm not looking to rag on people for enjoying tournies, I'm just wanting to explore things.

EDIT

Wow, this doesn't actually read all that well. Please persevere though. THere is a point in there somewhere!

Oh, yeah. Please don't see this as some smart arsed attempt to 'get one over on you'.

I genuinely feel I must be missing something in the appeal of Tournaments. I'm not being facetious, I'm not being cheeky. This is a genuine attempt to see if I am missing something blindingly obvious, or whether it's more my personality and that....

Sorry. I'll shut up now and let you get on with it.

I think it's as simple as: a fair number of people get off on competition. I would make a bet that most people who go to tournaments on a regular basis (including those on dakkadakka) are more that way inclined than the rest of us who play for the fun/social side. Not to say it's a bad thing though, many a world beating sportsman would have been useless without that quality, but the two gamer types don't mesh well.

Can we please get over this Beetlejuiece/He Who Shall Not Be Named nonsense.

His name is Robert Paulson... uhh... I mean Stelek.

STELEK

It's not a swear word, you can say it. Stop pussyfooting around it.

BYE

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I genuinely feel I must be missing something in the appeal of Tournaments.

Just depends on the mindset or what you want out of a game.

For instance, were I ever to attend Adepticon (not that I would as I can't stand GW's rules for 40K) the only event that interests me is the Team Tournament. I enjoy creating lists, and I enjoy creating good lists with odd restrictions. The restrictions on list creation and the idea of making a coherent themed army list with three other people appeals to me.

But would I want to take part in the Gladiator, or any standard tournament? Not really. I've run small-scale things with people I know, but nothing as cut-throat as that and while it's fun to have 'bragging rights' for winning, I'm far more interested in story-telling opportunities (one of the reasons I like Apoc).

BYE

I pretty much go to tournaments because I like seeing the different armies, and showing off my own. (Alright, it's not a great paint job, but I think my cyboars look sort of nifty.)

I haven't really had a problem with cheaters (that I know of..) or TFGs. Then again, I've only played in RTs.

You get three games in one day with a judge and prizes. I spend most of my free time modeling and painting so tournaments are ideal, plus most stores here have gone out of business. It's also a great way to make friends... join a club like the one you are dissing on.

Tournaments can be very competitive so if you prefer casual play against the same friends then maybe they are not for you. They take getting used to but can be a lot of fun. I always find it comical to watch people try charming the TO(s)... unfortunately it seems to work sometimes but no big deal, you see that going on in all walks of life.

G

My reasons for attending tournaments, in order of importance:

1) To play three/four games against painted armies that aren't my regular opponents.
2) To get out of the house for the day and socialize with my geeky friends and acquaintances
3) To show off my recently painted toy soldiers
4) To play at a bit tighter level than my friends and I play at during our weekly beer&dice nights
5) To win fabulous prizes and achieve notoriety as the best toy soldier player (J/K)

I think it can help you develop better tactics and is a great way to test your army list. It just seems like no matter what you come up with you will want to make some changes after the first time you play a new list. If you are playing a non top tiered army and want to be competitive I think this is even more so the case.

G

instead of writing a list I'm just going to second Redbeard's list.

I play most of my games with my friends and don't play much in store. The local store games I can find are not normally particularly exciting (people who don't understand the rules, 14 year olds, people who think Tau are overpowered, etc). I find that, outside of one or two people at every tournament who seem to be there specifically to WAAC and rules lawyer, you end up playing a lot of fun games and meeting nice people.

Plus, the main premise (that it's not worth the bother since people won't accept your victory as legit on the interwebz) seems wrong to me. If you're the type of person who thinks you're special because you won a WH40K tournament...you're probably not going to care if someone on the internet doesn't think you deserved it. And even if you are that type of person, it doesn't change the fact that the tournament was fun, it just makes the conversations on the internet less fun - and they probably weren't fun in the first place for that type of person (if they even exist).

I attend maybe two tourneys a year (as a player).
These are done purely to play people outside of my club, that I wouldn't normally get to play against (my club's tourney attracts 40 or so players and covers a 200-odd km radius for entrants) - and to catch up with 'friends' I only ever see once or twice a year.

I'm not there for the main prize. I'm there to put my club 'on the map', and to push the hobby. It would be nice to win once in a while (but I left being over-competitive behind when I stopped being a teen).

whatwhat wrote: I would make a bet that most people who go to tournaments on a regular basis (including those on dakkadakka) are more that way inclined than the rest of us who play for the fun/social side.

I think you have it all wrong. Tournament players play in tourneys for fun/social side. The thing is, what we consider fun(close games against varied opponents and armies, against great sports)doesnt mesh with the casual gamer who looks for the same things, just in a differant way. We like the competitiveness as we feel it expands our tactical knowledge and increases our enjoyment, whereas the casual gamer prefers the lax nature of casual play.

Guess Ill be the one who sais "playing in a tournament to win", at least mainly. Not by cheating or softscoring or beeing TFG during my games, but by winning the games fair and square. Pretty much like any other sport Ive participated in. Usually I have fun, meet new people and see new armies and stratagies during this time wich adds to the expirience.

Unfortunently TFGs are usually around alot, abusing rules or just making life misserable. But then again, they are usually around at the store during casual days too and still make life miserable for everyone else, maybe just a little more during a tournament.

I think that a lot of forumites have a different perception of "tournament players" than what you actually encounter in real life.

Typically there will be a small group of players who are really there for "the win." But there are always a bunch of guys who actually only really play casually, but don't have weekly get-togethers or anything, so tournaments are where they bust out their armies and play.

Last tournament I went to my first opponent said before the game started "oh I've only played a couple of 5th ed games." During an assault during my second game, when I told my opponent to make his "reaction moves" he replied "oh you mean pile-in" also displaying a lack of 5th ed rules knowledge.

"Tournament player" doesn't actually imply that the players are bringing cheesy lists, or playing only to win, or is of a higher caliber than non-tournament players... it merely means that the player has shown up to play in a tournament.

I go to tournaments to get 5-6 games in over a weekend.

Sadly due to work and family I get almost no gaming in outside of tournies.

Also I go for the best presented/Players Choice/Best painted and when I do have a fully painted army I usually win it, not because I'm the best converter or painter but because I select a theme and then push it as much as I can.

I like the tourneys because:
1. I get to play new individuals that I don't normally get to play. IMO, when you play the same people over and over, you get used to their tactics and what to expect model wise. Although always fun playing a game, the same opponents can get "stale" at times.
2. The thought of placing and possibly winning a prize of some sort makes it more competative (although my highest placing was 4th in the local 'ard boyz this past year). I only won a shirt, but was totally stoked about it!

We don't hear much complaining about tournaments and comp from the British contingent.

I think that is partly because the British contingent is smaller, and also because British tournaments don't have any soft scoring.

Yep, Redbeard has hit it pretty squarely on the head as far as I'm personally concerned. But I'll add my own viewpoint as well (in no particular order of importance):


1) I work nights which means the only time I get to see my girlfriend is on the weekend. Since wargaming generally only happens on weekday nights (when I'm working) or on weekends (when I'm hanging out with my gf) I tend to not get to play too many games. My gf is completely cool with me going to play a game, its just that unless I have something scheduled ahead of time I'm not going to bail on hanging out with her simply to drive down to the local store on the off-chance I may or may not find a game. So for me, a tournament is a pre-planned event that allows me to schedule time for gaming in advance. As such, playing at tournaments has been 90% of my 40k games in the last few years (since I started working nights).


2) Tournaments allow you to play people you wouldn't otherwise play, which can be a nice change of pace if you're stuck playing against the same opponents and same armies over and over again. As nice as your friends may be to play against, there is something refreshing about facing an army you rarely see played in a style you're not intimately aware of.


3) Competition is fun. Wargaming is a GAME. And the fundamental point of games, besides having fun, is to try to win the game. A tournament is essentially just one big game. Obviously most people that spend truckloads of cash and tons of time on a GAME would be interested in playing a game wrapped inside a bigger game which is what a tournament is.


4) Tournaments can give you motivation. Most tournaments have some sort of bonus for having your army painted (and nicely, even). This gives you incentive to get your models all painted. I've painted more models in the last few years in the month leading up to a major tournament than for the rest of the year combined. Also, trying to do well in a tournament often means you'll get some practice games in to test out your list. In this way, playing in tournaments really helps to spurn on the rest of your hobby by getting you to buy new armies, paint new models and get more games in.


5) Hanging out with like-minded people. More than anything else, tournaments can be fun if you can be social. They can be a great way to hang-out with people you don't see very often and talk about common interests, share a drink, etc, especially if the tournament lasts a whole weekend and takes place in a hotel. In a way, they're kind of like a 'gamer retreat' if you treat them as such.



As for TFGs, I've played in quite a few tournaments I can safely say that I have run into very, very, very few individuals who were unpleasant to play. And any who were I haven't given a 2nd thought about them since to the point where I can't even remember any specific instances anymore.

Personally, I think a lot of this comes back to how you approach a tournament. If your goal is to win the game and/or tournament at all costs, then I think you will help to push others into being ultra-competitive jerks as well. If you just relax and yes, try to win the game, but are okay with it if you lose, I think you'll find the amount of TFGs you encounter to dramatically decrease. Sure you'll occasionally encounter a social slow who feels the need to be a jerk even when you're being laid back, but again, if you're laid back and okay with losing (even though you do want to win), then you can simply write off your game against this guy and let him do whatever he needs to do in order to make himself feel good.

Yes, this means you're not going to win the tournament, but again, if you approach the situation as 'so what?' then all of the issues suddenly disappear. Yeah, one of your games wasn't optimal, but the rest of them almost always are. And that's the important thing to remember: The vast majority of gamers you find at tournaments are fun-loving, friendly, competitive hobbyists just as most of us are.

Kallbrand wrote:
Unfortunently TFGs are usually around alot, abusing rules or just making life misserable. But then again, they are usually around at the store during casual days too and still make life miserable for everyone else, maybe just a little more during a tournament.

Have you ever considered that perhaps how you approach tournaments helps to bring out the worst in your opponents? I'm not trying to condemn your personal approach of tournaments but I find it interesting that your goal for attending tournaments is to win them and at the same time to seem to encounter a whole lot more instances of TFG. It could just be a coincidence, but maybe its not?

Yak hit most of my points very succinctly, but I'll add a few other points as well from my experience (Baltimore GT from 1998 to 2008, with a couple years missed recently).

1) Early on in my Tourny attendance, I only met TFG for one game out of the 5-6 game over the weekend. Not a bad ratio, all things considered.

2) Competition: There are two types of players who go to the Tournies. The competitive ones who vie for and battle over the top 10 tables (and the next 10 tables are those who got bumped down), the rest of the hall are people who just want to get games in, play casually, fluff players, whatever. And that is not to say that they don't want to win their games, we all do, but the level of tension is perceptibly less on the lower tables.

3) Incentive - GTs were always my incentive to get my armies painted. Going to GTs was also an opportunity to see fantastically painted and converted armies. And while there are still those awesome armies, there are no way near the same proportion of them as there used to be. I don't know if that has to do with the decreasing emphasis on the 'hobby' aspect of things, or what. (And I think 'Ard Boys, with the great grey masses is an abomination )

4) Socialization - used to be the GTs were held in hotels, GW provided lunch each day, and at the end of a hard days fighting, everyone went to the bar to hang out, swap war stories, and then participate in the GW pub quiz and win all kinds of prizes. Now, they're all in Convention Centers, the hotels where people stay are scattered, and at least in Baltimore, the hang outs are equally scattered. So even the socialization aspect has decreased over the years.

My last point is about attitude going in. I've had the best GTs when I've gone into them expecting to play 5 or 6 games, and not caring whether I won or lost. When I have worried about winning, I've had a miserable time, and I'm sure been miserable to my opponents. So, now when I do feel like going to the GT, I get into the relaxed mindset from the get go, and just go to get away for a weekend, geek out, and check out the other people's armies.

To the point about playing different people, while I agree that the people are different, the armies are boringly similar (and I could have faced them at home, without a couple hundred dollar outlay). This year at the GT I faced: Marines (Sternguard), Marines (Sternguard), CSM (Dual Lash), CSM (Dual Lash), CSM (Red Corsair - the only unique one, but only the HQ was really different).

Tournies can be great fun, but I don't get all the drama about them.

I'll chime in on this one, as I'm a regular tournament attendee. Over the course of over 20 Grand Tournaments, I've run into TFG twice, maybe three times. And I think I've actually been TFG at least once......... And it doesn't matter whether you're at the top tables or down lower. Been at both ends, spent an entire GT playing in the top 15 tables, and spent most of a GT way down at the bottom.
Anyways, for me, the tourneys, even our local events, are primarily a social occasion where we get together, play some games, roll somce, drink some (a lot!!) beer, and make a weekend out of our hobby. And yeah, I'm a very lazy painter, so if it weren't for the tourneys, I'd probably never paint new units, new armies. But when tourney season rolls around, I get these strange ideas on how I can improve my army, make it look better or make it different (Lizardman IG, all-Scout Marines, etc) and I just have to build a new army.

Unfortuneately I live in an area of the country that doesn't have any "local" game stores. By Local I mean I have to drive over an hour to get to one. Except for a few exceptions I haven't been able to find any people that I actually like to play games with. I have a very low tolerance for jerkwads.

So at the moment, tourneys are pretty much it. I can truly and honestly say that I have had only one "bad" game at a tournament and that was vs a NIDZILLA list. I had never played against one so I wasn't prepared for the total a$$ whooping I was about to receive. I mean I had absolutely no chance. I was playing ultramarines.

Anyway, aside from that, I have found that in tournies people are usually better behaved as well (often times this comes across as fake) because they are not wanting to get their sportsmanship scores dinged.

Another atraction to me about tournies, is the intensity level. When you are playing a game that has a purpose and can have repercussions down the road it adds another level of intensity that I like. I like campaigns for much the same reason.

My 2&1/2 cents.

GG

Thank you for the responses to far chaps! All nicely thought out and everyone seems to be getting the spirit of the thread. There's a couple of posters I feel have missed a bit of my original post, but meh, not to anyones detriment.

So, TFG eh? From your responses, it seems the harder you play, the more TFG you bump into. I can see the logic there I suppose, and I suspect it's as much perspective as anything else.

However....to you guys who play in Tournaments quite a lot, whereabouts in the proceedings would you say you meet TFG the most often? Is it towards the beginning of the weekend/event, in an attempt to take people out the running, or is it in the later events in an attempt to 'take you with them'

Perhaps it's the same at all points, I dunno!

yakface wrote:

Kallbrand wrote:
Unfortunently TFGs are usually around alot, abusing rules or just making life misserable. But then again, they are usually around at the store during casual days too and still make life miserable for everyone else, maybe just a little more during a tournament.

Have you ever considered that perhaps how you approach tournaments helps to bring out the worst in your opponents? I'm not trying to condemn your personal approach of tournaments but I find it interesting that your goal for attending tournaments is to win them and at the same time to seem to encounter a whole lot more instances of TFG. It could just be a coincidence, but maybe its not?

I dont think so since I see the same types of people(or actuallt the exact same persons, since here in Sweden the playerbase is quite small) when Im not playing and just watching games.

I would say that I see these people the most somewhere just below the top, most of the people in the top are usually the best to play since they know the game well and play fast.

I go to:
1. Get a vacation from job and family for a couple days
2. Have fun
3. Game against someone new (or at least, someone that I don't often play against)
4. Motivate me to assemble and paint an army

I expect that at any tourney, I'll play TFG once. Just once out of 3-6 games. That's not a horrible ratio. And honestly, the last few years at Adepticon, I think TFG has been one guy (not even a whole team) at the most. I think that one year, I played 4 TT games on Saturday and 3 40k on Saturday, and thought all 11 opponents were great.

Look, TFG is out there. He's not that prevalent.

Here's my take on the WC tourney situation. I wasn't there. All the information that I have is based on what others say, but at the end - I wasn't there. Unless you were, I would be careful with drawing any conclusions. I came down a little too quick on the TO for Genghis Con, and a few things he said made me realize that I was a little too quick to judgement.

My advice is to keep playing in tournies. I'd try to get friends to go with you. I almost always enjoy the experience more if my friends go too.

And if you feel there is a real problem with some players at the tourney - you need to notify the organizer. If the problem is the organizer, sadly, you may need to run your own tourney. And most TOs would be happy to have someone else run one, so that they can just attend and play.

Sorry guys! I wasn't trying to investiagte the WC at all, but I can kind of see why some might see that.

Just to reiterate, I used the WC for examples as I felt that most users on Dakka would know about what I was on about, and being lazy, that saved me from having to explain other examples.

Something to keep in mind, the 'complaints' of tournies are a small minority of actual tourney games. Can a bad tourney experience happen? Yes. Is it likely? No, it's pretty unlikely.

My advice is to go to other tournies. If you participate in a handful run by different TOs and different venues, and you still don't like it, maybe it's not for you. But, you may find that you do enjoy it.

For me, it's all of the above but I love making, using and playing against the best possible army list; I can spend hours writing harsh lists and I would never use them in normal games unless pre-arranged.

People moan about lists a lot at tourna ments however, if you take a hard list, you will play hard lists and they are exactly the sort of games I love playing.

I love writing non-cookie-cutter lists and doing well against the top (or near) lists/players.

Oh, I am also a complete glory wh0re

Thats fair advice I suppose, and since it's come from more than one poster, worth considering.

THe group of friends is another good suggestion, asif nothing else I can bitch to them if I meet TFG and thus not ruin anyone elses fun!

To be a better player you need to play better players. That and the after hour parties are pretty fun as well as everyone just geeks out and gets drunk and has ocnversatiosn like Marneus Clagar could beatup doctor doom. So your drunk, probably stoned rambling about the feminization of space marines or whatever in the middle of waffle house in the middle of the morning and its pretty aawesome.

"His name is Robert Paulson"

nice...