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Straightforward question. Can beasts go up levels in ruins?

I would have to think they can....

dogs can, tiger can , cats can , raccoons can , horse can, sheep can , goat can hmm .... dotn see why not ,4 legs are 4 legs 0.o

Pg. 83,
"only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin -"

So, Beasts & Cavalry, Bikes, and Vehicles cannot presumably.

Bottle is correct.

It kind of balances the fact that beasts can charge 12" and have fleet

I agree except under beasts it says "Beasts move as infantry".

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Ok, lets crack out the RaW hammer.

RaW #1: Regarding movement

Page 54 wrote: "Beasts and cavalry move like infantry."

So far so good, however, we turn to...

RaW #2: Moving within Ruins

Page 83 wrote: "Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Emphasis mine.

Now, here we have two rules, both of which combine to provide the answer. You can scream about how beasts move like infantry untill the cows come home, but the rules for ruins are very, very clear. The question you have to now ask is this: "Is a unit with the "beast" type a "infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures [or] walker...?"

The answer is no by the way.

Therefore we look to the second part of the rule for guidance:
Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.
Beasts are one of these "other" units, and as such, may not move into the upper levels of a ruin.


And now for something completely different:
On the Hormagaunts, the situation is a little trickier. The rules were written for a a different ruleset, and as such throw up contradictions like this.
To keep it at its simplest (that is, the way the Rules work now) is as such:

Flesh Hooks allow a Tyranid to:

Page 32 Codex: Tyranids wrote:"...count 'vertically impassible' pieces of terrain such as high walls or cliffs as difficult terrain instead."

All well and good, but it does not remove the restriction on beasts being unable to move to the upper level of ruins. The rules don't say "ruins are vertically impassible for beasts" the rules just say beasts cannot climb to upper levels of ruins, period.

Therefore, while flesh hooks allow you to count cliffs as difficult terrain, they still do not allow you to climb onto upper levels of ruins.

Yes its stupid, and I honestly suggest you house rule it, but that is how the rules work, and that is how the majority of people will play it (that is, they will not allow them to climb ruins).

EDITS: Added Hormagaunt part and fixed the linebreaks. Damn Linebreaks. Also Spelling and Grammar

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Bottle wrote:Not to de-rail this thread (though I think Gwar cleared it up anyway), but we always played the solid walls in a ruin area terrain as 'agreed impassable terrain' (as discussed on pg.14 of the BRB). So I guess it's not quite house rules, but has been agreed upon none-the-less. c:

HAHA, yes that is one way of looking at it yes.

Even so, its still classed as a ruin, and beasts cannot go above ground floor on ruins.

Honestly, if there are ruins on the board your best bet is to go over the rules for the ruins with your opponent before the game starts to make sure that there's agreement on all of the fiddly bits of the ruin rules. You just don't want to get into an argument on turn two or three when you try to assault the unit camped out in the ruins, and it comes down to "I thought I was safe from your guys" versus "I thought I could get to you there."

It does seem somewhat silly that beast packs couldn't climb up ruins, but maybe limiting them to a D6" charge instead of (highest of 2D6)x2" would be fairest. Climbing's hard work, right? After all, there are enough spots in the terrain and ruin rules which bend over backwards to avoid definite statements that a house rule or two can't hurt.

The image of a squad of guardsmen up on a ruin, laughing and pointing and taunting at the poor hormagaunts below, yapping like dogs trying to climb a tree.

Actually, that means the picture on the back of the tyranid codex, where there is a few guardsmen up on a firing step vs a gazillion gaunts... means they are safe from the hormagaunts so long as the building they are in is a 'ruin"... thats pretty funny actually.

Matt Varnish wrote:The image of a squad of guardsmen up on a ruin, laughing and pointing and taunting at the poor hormagaunts below, yapping like dogs trying to climb a tree.

Actually, that means the picture on the back of the tyranid codex, where there is a few guardsmen up on a firing step vs a gazillion gaunts... means they are safe from the hormagaunts so long as the building they are in is a 'ruin"... thats pretty funny actually.

You can blame Games Workshop and their inability to write for that. If you think it doesn't make sense just house rule it

Another flawed RAW interpretation.

If something moves as infantry, and infantry can move on the upper levels of a ruin, then that something can also move on the upper levels.

If I have a chaos sorcerer with gift of chaos on the top level of a ruins, and he turns a space marine into a spawn on that same upper level .... now what?

Beasts move as infantry, infrantry can move on upper levels, therefore beasts can move on the upper levels.

I'm with Gwar on this one, this is pretty air tight. The RB is very very explicit on what units may move on the upper level of terrain and beasts are not mentioned. In fact the very quote (from an above quote from Gwar) mentions that "other units" may not move on the upper level.

Does anyone know where the quote "beasts move as infantry" comes from?

One of the biggest...wait, no, the biggest failure in RAW interpretation is taking things out of context. All languages in the world *rely* on reading and hearing in context. Otherwise no one will be able to hold any real conversation or get anything right.

That quote which isn't complete btw comes form page 54 and it is listed in the 'exceptions to non-infantry' part of the RB where it lists the other types of units in the game that are not infantry which prior to page 51 is what the RB solely relies on from a rules perspective.

That quote is in the context of saying that cavalry and beasts move like infantry (i.e. 6" and takes difficult/dangerous terrain tests as normal).

The quote on who may move up and down ruins is found in the (surprise) Ruins and Moving within ruins section of the book (pg 83) and it is again very explicit in its definition of which units may do what and those units fit into the context of this paragraph and what the author is conveying to his reader.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Another flawed RAW interpretation.

If something moves as infantry, and infantry can move on the upper levels of a ruin, then that something can also move on the upper levels.

If I have a chaos sorcerer with gift of chaos on the top level of a ruins, and he turns a space marine into a spawn on that same upper level .... now what?

Beasts move as infantry, infrantry can move on upper levels, therefore beasts can move on the upper levels.

You're wrong. Beasts move as infantry but they are not infantry. Nor are they jump infantry, jetbikes, MCs or walkers. The rules dont say things that move like these unit types can move in the upper levels of ruins, the rules say only things that ARE these unit types can move on the upper levels of a ruin.

As per your example, the spawn would be unable to move, although you could house-rule it that it can move down.

And Hormoguants with fleshhooks, which can move in impassible terrain.... but not ruins which is admittedly easier?

Never Mind fleshooks = special rule for beasts that have it. I guess the chaos spawn is an exception too.

Anyhow it was pg 54 that said "Beasts and Calvary move like infantry" in the movement phase, they have fleet, and fleet ignores terrain type for movement, and... in the assault phase other than the 12" assault, "they assault just like infantry"


You know looking at the bikes rules on page 53. I wonder if bikes can get up into ruins too.
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain. They treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain"

And page 83 states that Ruins = difficult terrain.

Who knows

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At our club we generally just play ruins as area terrain. Walls and such are just considered difficult terrain rather than impassable.

Also, just to address the trolls in this thread, things that "move like" infantry are not always infantry. By that logic, a Dreadnought cannot move and shoot a heavy weapon, since if it moves like infantry it must be infantry. So no, beasts and Bikes cannot move to upper levels of ruins, and flesh hooks are just frag grenades. Live with it.

Of course you are welcome to try and explain why they may, ensuring you remember to include all the relevant rules (i.e. No pick 'n' mix and selective quoting), I will be happy to debate in a cordial manner (and explain why you are flat out wrong).

Just to completely split hairs, you might notice that all of the ruins in the rulebook are shown with LADDERS instead of stairs, so the rules are partially based on 'How would they get up to the second level?'. If you went out and built (or bought) a set of handicapped (or beast) accessible ruins with ramps and staircases, you'd probably get to win the argument.

Just curious, why wouldn't the rules for Flesh Hooks (Codex) trump the rules regrding beasts and ruins (Rulebook)? Course, to make this more confusing, what if, instead of stopping on a new level, the Hormagaunts stopped on the Impassible Wall they're using as Difficult Terrain (just wondering if the rules stop this from happening)?

The real question here is does the moving in ruins section of the brb where it is describing what can move in ruins is describing what movement types or unit types.

Answer that one, and you have the answer to this question.

RustyKnight wrote:Just curious, why wouldn't the rules for Flesh Hooks (Codex) trump the rules regrding beasts and ruins (Rulebook)? Course, to make this more confusing, what if, instead of stopping on a new level, the Hormagaunts stopped on the Impassible Wall they're using as Difficult Terrain (just wondering if the rules stop this from happening)?

No they do not, as I already Pointed out. Ruins are not vertically impassible terrain for beasts. They are just prohibited from moving above ground level, end of story.

imweasel wrote:The real question here is does the moving in ruins section of the brb where it is describing what can move in ruins is describing what movement types or unit types.

Answer that one, and you have the answer to this question.

Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Gwar! wrote:Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Really? So since there are no 'movement types' and the beast/cavalry entry says 'move like infantry' then it must mean they are infantry?

Also your example of dreadnoughts not being able to move and shoot would be accurate if there was not a written exception that states they can shoot.

Each and every unit/type of movement mentioned in the ruin movement entry in the brb has it's own movement rules.

Now believe me, I am on your side of the argument. However, there are some legitamate arguments from the other side.

imweasel wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Firstly there is no such thing as "movement types", only unit types. Secondly, eve though every Non Vehicle model moves/shoots/assaults as infantry unless otherwise stated in their unit type rules, that doesn't mean they can do everything infantry does (Bikes cannot run as per the Bike rules). The rules for ruins do not list beasts or bikes as a unit type that can climb ruins, therefore they cannot.

Really? So since there are no 'movement types' and the beast/cavalry entry says 'move like infantry' then it must mean they are infantry?

Also your example of dreadnoughts not being able to move and shoot would be accurate if there was not a written exception that states they can shoot.

Each and every unit/type of movement mentioned in the ruin movement entry in the brb has it's own movement rules.

Now believe me, I am on your side of the argument. However, there are some legitamate arguments from the other side.

You missed the point with my comment there. I was stating that there are no Movement types, only unit types. Beasts can "move as" infantry till Ragnarok but they are still the unit type "Beast"

Now, lets just boil it down to the VERY VERY simplest.

Find me a Single rule (no circular logic or looping rubbish) that says beasts can.
I have one that specifically shows beasts cannot:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Gwar! wrote:Now, lets just boil it down to the VERY VERY simplest.

Find me a Single rule (no circular logic or looping rubbish) that says beasts can.
I have one that specifically shows beasts cannot:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Please show me where this rule is refering to unit type. It does not say:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only unit type infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Is this an easter egg hunt? More than likely and I do think it is.

However, it also does not state:

Page 83 wrote:"Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only units that move like infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

The rule as written is somewhat ambiguous.

No, not it is not.

there is nothing else that the term "only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers" can be referring to.

Twisting it about to say "Infantry doesn't mean infantry units but it means things that move like infantry" is just pure rape of the English Language.

And if it was like that, why wouldn't it be a lit simpler and just say "only non vehicles (except walkers) may move etc etc" since that is what your interpretation leads to.

If they wanted it to be "units that move like" they would have said that. By their very Definition Infantry, Walkers and such ARE unit types. To say "only those of the unit type" is bad grammar and redundant.

Ruins are always going to be ruins, whatever you do with them.

Aslong as you come at them from the right angle.. there will be vertically impassable sections to most multi-story ruins.

But at the end of the day : Codex > BGB

Therefor.. if a fleshhooking beast (y) comes up to a vertically impassably anything, it can move up it. It makes sense in both Raw & Rai. (Dont make me spell out either implication)

(I think youve though that yourself many-a-time Gwar )

Razerous wrote:Ruins are always going to be ruins, whatever you do with them.

Aslong as you come at them from the right angle.. there will be vertically impassable sections to most multi-story ruins.

How do you figure that? Ruins are ruins, as you said yourself. Difficult terrain tests, moving up a level requires at least 3", and that's it. There's no impassable terrain within a ruin.

But razerous, ruins are NOT vertically impassible terrain for ANYTHING!
The rules state that "only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers" may climb up above ground level, so unless Flesh Hooks has a part that needs to be read in the light of a 78/234th moon that says "Beasts with Flesh Hooks may climb above ground level in a ruin", then they cannot.

RaW, Flesh Hooks cannot help beasts climb ruins, as stupid as it sounds.

What you do at any particular club is all well and good (hell at mine we allow it but thats beside the point), Rules as Written (the ONLY things we should discuss here) do not allow them. If you wanna house rule it, good for you.

Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?