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apocoli wrote:Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?

Gaunts count as infantry not beasts iirc so they can move up lvls in ruins. Funny a stompa on the top lvl of a ruin...(not sure don't play apoc)

So a Beast cannot move up stairs in a Ruin, but
can move up stairs in an intact building?

apocoli wrote:Would i be correct in saying that gaunts cant go up in ruins, but a stompa can?

I don't actually have the Apocalypse books to hand, but if there is nothing in the Super heavy Walker Rules that forbids it, then yes they may.

Of course it being fun and silly apocalypse I think it would be best to not even try and worry about such nonsense.

If you read the rules concerning ruins carefully, there is an important assumption being made about movement between levels in a ruin. All of the unit types listed in the first paragraph of page 83 have a plausible mechanism for traveling from one level of the ruin to another--the jetbikes and jump infantry can fly, and the rest can use one or the other of the options in the paragraph at the bottom of page 83 to get from one level to another.

The rules don't say "The upper levels of ruins are impassible to everything not in this list: ...", it says that they can't move onto that level using those rules. The book uses the words "clambering to the upper levels of the ruins," for Pete's sake. So the little tyranids aren't allowed to 'clamber' onto the upper levels, instead they get to climb the impassible walls up to the upper levels.

To use fleshhooks to move from one level to another, all you would need to do is agree that the walls of the ruin are 'vertical, impassible terrain'. (Guess what happens if walls aren't vertically impassible... ) The consequence of that would be that all of your movement between levels would have to involve moving back and forth along those 'vertical, impassible' walls, and not using the more convenient mechanism allowed to models on page 83's approved list.

Fluff to support rules = Fail beyond words.

That's rich. Hormagaunts can't get up a staircase and the Carnifex can look back and shout "come on guys!!!"

Oldgrue wrote:That's rich. Hormagaunts can't get up a staircase and the Carnifex can look back and shout "come on guys!!!"

That's what the rules say?

I fail to see any point behind that post.

Belphegor wrote:So a Beast cannot move up stairs in a Ruin, but
can move up stairs in an intact building?

Only infantry can enter intact buildings

The rules for beasts appear after the rules for moving in ruins, correct? The BGB is a hierarchical ruleset, where rules that appear later often modify or refer to rules stated earlier, yes?

If beasts "move like" infantry, and infantry may move on the upper levels of a building, I would appreciate Gwar's pointing out his reasoning regarding why the beast rules don't override the earlier entry.

Applying the RAW properly, the rules for beasts allow them to move everywhere that infantry can. The "only" that Gwar's argument relies on is irrelevant to the discussion.

Edit: Sorry for the thread necromancy, but 5th is still new and relevant, and I still have movement questions of my own, this among them.

ColonelEllios wrote:If beasts "move like" infantry, and infantry may move on the upper levels of a building, I would appreciate Gwar's pointing out his reasoning regarding why the beast rules don't override the earlier entry.

Ruins give a EXACT list of what can move up. Therefore, nothing else can.

You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

Beasts move like infantry. That is the only relevant statement in the BGB to this discussion. If you disagree with me on this, you need to prove that I am wrong in stating that the beasts rule takes precedence concerning units with the unit type "beast."

The next question to ask is "where can infantry move..."

Edited for clarity.

ColonelEllios wrote:You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

And how do you arrive at that notion?

I'm just gonna say beasts can. Just to be annoying.

@Sourclams: Because the rule appears later on in the BGB, thus stating a new rule that takes precedence over earlier ones regarding beast units.

Edit: In case the observation that the rules in the BGB are listed in descending order-from general to more specific-had escaped anyone here, I'm going to go ahead and remind anyone confused by such an observation to take a long, hard look at the table of contents in the beginning of the BGB.

ColonelEllios wrote:You failed to address my point that the beast rules take precedence over that list.

Beasts move like infantry. That is the only relevant statement in the BGB to this discussion. If you disagree with me on this, you need to prove that I am wrong in stating that the beasts rule takes precedence concerning units with the unit type "beast."

The next question to ask is "where can infantry move..."

Edited for clarity.

The listing at the top of pg 83 is listing what unit types can move on upper levels of ruins.

Beasts moving like infantry does not mean 'counts as infantry'.

Beasts are not on the list. Beasts are not infantry. Beasts cannot move on upper levels of ruins.

Beasts moving like infantry is irrelevant to this discussion.

Just to answer the title of the thread, instead of the body of the thread, because they are different questions:
The rules for ruins don't include rules for stairs.

So wait. If you...no...hang on. This is really difficult. This can be interpereted both ways. hmmmm, no really, the arguments for both side are pretty solid.

Infantry can move through buildings. (Beasts not Mentioned)
Beasts move like infantry.

I would say that the answer would be yes. Just becuase for game turns (especially in cityfight or somesuch) it seems too pendantic to utterly render beasts uesless in such a way.

I would say the list of what unit types in the book that is allowed to clamber up and about in ruins covers it quite nicely.

For the "it says move like so it must be the same crowd" I think the winged chaos argument is worth looking at.

Plus, you essentially arguing otherwise for allowing rough rider cavalry to scale up buildings.

If you wish to persist in claiming that beasts can move about "upstairs" as "they move like infantry" they you must also limit their move to 6 inches as you are disregarding some of the rules for being of a new/different unit type, which include, as listed in the relevants ection of the rules, a restriction upon them etc etc.

Now I agree it does seem a bit daft, but no dafter than allowing rough riders to climb up buildings. You'd think that Karranak, the most lethal of Khorne's famed hunters, who can track you through space and time, might, maybe, have figures out how to go upstairs, but....

stompa is a super heavy walker which is not listed as being able to go up in ruins by RAW.

I rarely see stairs and ramps in ruins. I can see hormogaunts clambering up some ramps potentially, but that's a very specific scenario.

Exactly how is a unit of roughriders supposed to get up a ladder? Leave hormogaunts out of it; they're one specific type of beast and we should not limit the discussion of beasts to them. Exactly how do calvary...horses...climb a ladder? I don't see it happening.

And hormogaunts: They're pretty dumb. If the means of getting from floor #2 to floor #3 is via elevator with an encrypted passcode written on the wall for only intelligent beings to read, exactly which of them are going to don reading glasses to decypher the code? I mean....c'mon.

And what if transition between floors required use of a teleportation pad and an operator control floor such as those found in Star Trek? Do you have a hormogaunt named Scotty? Does he have an Irish brogue? Because if you don't....I don't see those hormogaunts getting very teleport happy at all. Nope.

You could try compromising:
Treat them as if they have cow knees. Thus, they can go up the stairs but subsequently can't go back down.

Its been stated already a couple of times. A beast is a beast, and infantry is an infantry. Moving like an infantry is not the same at all as counts as infantry.

Beasts could go into ruins if their rule was they count as infantry for movement purposes. It isn't though, it is just a shortcut of printing to tell you to use the general movement rules of infantry.

You use the general movement rules of infantry, but any special conditions that allow infantry to do something does not mean beasts can then do it, since they do not count as infantry.

@ImWeasel: Merely restating your obvious and shortsighted interpretation of the rules does not make you any more right, or add anything at all to your argument.

As per Dictionary.com:

"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

So, to continue the grade-school pedantics:

Applying the Beast rules to the rules for ruins, which state that they move like infantry, then one can include beasts under the "infantry" type listed for ruins.

One might mentally append the section on Ruins to read: "only ... infantry (beasts)... may move on the upper levels of ruins"

Beasts are not excluded from the list, because they move LIKE INFANTRY in ruins.

You people fail at the English language.

Emphasis added for clarity

Gaunts can go up ruins, hormoguants can't. Apparently as soon as you give a guant scything talons he loses the ability to climb stairs. I agree that the rules clearly state beasts no climb, however, I would house rule hormoguants being able to do it, nids got beat with the nerf stick enough with 5th, lets cut them a break.

Hormagants (and Raveners, blah blah) cannot. The other gaunts can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the problem is more basic than this.

Fielding Hormagants in 5e is a problem in and of itself.

^^

ColonelEllios wrote:@ImWeasel: Merely restating your obvious and shortsighted interpretation of the rules does not make you any more right, or add anything at all to your argument.

As per Dictionary.com:

"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

So, to continue the grade-school pedantics:

Applying the Beast rules to the rules for ruins, which state that they move like infantry, then one can include beasts under the "infantry" type listed for ruins.

One might mentally append the section on Ruins to read: "only ... infantry (beasts)... may move on the upper levels of ruins"

Beasts are not excluded from the list, because they move LIKE INFANTRY in ruins.

You people fail at the English language.

Emphasis added for clarity

Nice definition, but it only further shoots holes in your argument. Nothing in what you looked up defines beasts as being exactly as infantry, only like them or of the same form, or appearance.

The rule clearly defines, "only infantry...". For you to want to dual classify your beasts to get all the bonuses of them with none of the negatives just points to you being a cheater.

Again, from Dictionary.com:

Kind (noun) a class or group of individual objects, people, animals, etc., of the same nature or character, or classified together because they have traits in common; category: Our dog is the same kind as theirs.

You fail. Again.

For proximity's sake:

ColonelEllios wrote:"Like" : OF THE SAME form, appearance, KIND, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.

People, for the purposes of moving in ruins, beasts ARE TREATED AS infantry. Dur.

ColonelEllios wrote:You people fail at the English language.

Oh the irony.

Beasts move like infantry. If they were allowed in ruins, they would move like infantry moves in ruins.

Beasts are not on the list of allowed unit types in Ruins. Infantry is on that list. Since beasts are not infantry, nor do they count as infantry, infantry being on that list does not mean anything for beasts.

It never gets to the point of mattering which movement rules you use for them in ruins, since they aren't allowed in ruins in the first place.

Beasts move like infantry, and infantry move in ruins.

Based on the definitions above, Kaaihn, which state that beasts are "of the same kind" as infantry, which is to say that, for this purpose, they ARE infantry (or are included in the same "group", whichever); the book tells you that beasts can move in/on ruins.