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Oh gee, here we go again. . .

Let me hear your take on winged DPs then?

*Flashback to another travesty*

(tip: "Moves like" does not mean "Becomes")

kirsanth wrote:(tip: "Moves like" does not mean "Becomes")

It does when the book says so specifically for the purposes of movement. For the purposes of movement, beasts are included in the "group" with "infantry" in the rules for ruins.

You are correct, or rather you would be if the book actually said that.
And you still fail at english.

It says they move as infantry. Not become infantry in the movement phase.

They remain beasts.

And beasts cannot go up stairs.

Stairs have nothing to do with this discussion.

"Move as" or "move like" infantry means quite simply that you treat beasts AS infantry when considering movement.

Beasts do not become infantry at any point. As per the definitions I have posted--which are accepted English language definitions--beasts are included in the same group with infantry for the purposes of moving in ruins, and are therefore included in the so-called restrictive list in question.

Note the repetition of the verb "move" in all three rule clauses.

Whether or not you consider beasts as "becoming" infantry for the purposes of movement is mostly irrelevent, but not wholly wrong.

And beasts are not allowed up stairs/upper level/anything other than the floor of the ruins

No, but Infantry are, and beasts are LIKE infantry when MOVING THEM.

Are you debating the meaning of the word "like?" Are you debating that Beasts are treated for all intents and purposes as infantry in the movement phase, as their SPECIAL RULE states?

The fact that they are beasts is irrelevant to the rules for ruins, because they HAVE RULES THAT STATE that they count as infantry when they are moving. And the rules for ruins are specific to infantry movement. Read a dictionary.

@ ColonelEllios
"Movement" has nothing to do with going up stairs in buildings.

"Moving within Ruins" (a completely different and separate rule) states that only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and walkers can move on the upper levels

Since Vehicles (that aren't walkers), Beasts, Artillery and Bikes are not listed they cannot move above ground level

ColonelEllios wrote:Beasts move like infantry, and infantry move in ruins.

Based on the definitions above, Kaaihn, which state that beasts are "of the same kind" as infantry, which is to say that, for this purpose, they ARE infantry (or are included in the same "group", whichever); the book tells you that beasts can move in/on ruins.

No, they are not "of the same kind". They simply move like infantry. This means you use the infantry movement rules for them, as detailed on page 11-14.

Any place that allows infantry but no others would not allow beasts. Moving like infantry does not make them infantry. The wording needed would be "counts as".

To me, the rules for some of GW's unit types are unclear.

Specifically, can a model have 2 unit types? If a model gains one unit type, does it lose its other unit type?

If a model gains the ability to 'move like jump infantry' does it become jump infantry, or are you still allowed to take the unit in a transport?

The rules for Beasts & Cavalry say that they "... move like infantry...". The rules for movement are found on pages 11 through 14 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook. The rules for ruins are found on pages 82 through 85. It doesn't matter if Beasts & Cavalry "... move like infantry..." because it's not the movement rules that forbid them from entering ruins. It's the rules for ruins that prevents them from entering. How they move is inconsequential and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they can enter ruins.

With the exception that they "move like infantry," which I've already shown above to mean "included in the same group as infantry." Or, if you prefer to state it another way, with regards to movement, beasts are ANALOGOUS to infantry.

Therefore, if infantry are allowed to move in ruins, then beasts are included as infantry in that list.

If the Ruins rule stated that "only infantry can occupy the upper floors of a ruin" then you would be technically right. However, the rules for ruins specifically invoke "movement" and therefore the Beast rules apply.

No, Ellios, you haven't. Their unit type does not change, and it is their unit type that determines their ability to move or not move into the upper levels of the ruins.

ColonelEllios wrote:With the exception that they "move like infantry," which I've already shown above to mean "included in the same group as infantry." Or, if you prefer to state it another way, with regards to movement, beasts are ANALOGOUS to infantry.

Therefore, if infantry are allowed to move in ruins, then beasts are included as infantry in that list.

If the Ruins rule stated that "only infantry can occupy the upper floors of a ruin" then you would be technically right. However, the rules for ruins specifically invoke "movement" and therefore the Beast rules apply.

ok ok lets assume you are correct lets see if holds true ... Artillery also moves like Infantry , In fact bikes also uses the rules for movement like infantry but can move up to 12" .

So why wouldn't its list only non-walker vehicles being able to go above ground level? It is very simple, "MOVING WITHIN RUINS" is the rule that allows any one to move within a ruin.

Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and walkers can move on the upper levels. Other units may only move on the ground level.

Since beast are not included in that list they must be part of the "other units" and can only move along the ground

+1

Can we put this tedious argument to bed at last?

Trasvi wrote:To me, the rules for some of GW's unit types are unclear.

Specifically, can a model have 2 unit types? If a model gains one unit type, does it lose its other unit type?

If a model gains the ability to 'move like jump infantry' does it become jump infantry, or are you still allowed to take the unit in a transport?

Yes it can be both, and no it does not need to lose one to gain one. That is part of what is . . . missed.

A winged Hive Tyrant is both a Monstrous Creature, and Jump Infantry.

A Winged Daemon Prince is a Monstrous Creature that moves like Jump Infantry.

I alluded to this earlier but ColonelEllios did not deign to respond to that one, as that thread was beaten to death worse than this one has (so far) been.

The Hive Tyrant with Wings takes dangerous terrain when starting there - he is Jump Infantry.
The Daemon Prince with Wings on the other hand is not, so takes no test.

Can we stop now?

They're only included "... In the same group as infantry..." for movement. Being able to enter ruins has NOTHING to do with movement. The rules don't say that they count as infantry for entering ruins, do they? No. So they can NOT enter them.

@ Kirsanth: So, if a model can be two types of units, then beasts count as infantry when moving, no?

@Ghaz: As usual, you couldn't be more wrong.

Page 83 wrote: "Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump Infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can physically be placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Nothing there about who can enter ruins.

No. You're the one who's wrong. Moving like infantry does not make them infantry. Otherwise why have rules for Beasts & Cavalry in the first place? They still can not enter the upper level of the ruins because as Beasts & Cavalry they can NOT. They're not on the list of units that can enter the upper levels of ruins, are they? No they're not.

I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like". In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

Like space elves and sentient space fungi or star vampires? Those are the rules, whether you find them ridiculous or not.

Emperors Faithful wrote:"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like".

'Moving like infantry' is not a strong argument. How they move is not what allows them to to move into the upper levels but their unit type. Just because Beasts & Cavalry move like infantry their unit type does not change. They are NOT Infantry. They are still Beasts & Cavalry.

Emperors Faithful wrote:In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

That is for both players to decide before the game. Regardless, it does NOT allow Beasts & Cavalry to move into the upper levels of ruins.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I understand that beast may not be able to simply climb vertically up a building, but up stairs? or a ramp? Now that's just being ridiculous.

"Moves like infantry" is still a pretty strong arguement, and only one person has done anything credible against it by argueing it needed to be "counts as", not "moves like". In any case, people will then start to argue what is an upper level of a ruin. With CoD it is ussualy clear enough, but what about ramps leading to buildings? Then it would be stupid to argue that the beasts can get up.

Ok lets explain how the rule works. Nothing can normally move vertically. You can walk up hills and slopes. Ruins have rules for moving within them that effect models differently. Any of the listed models may move vertically as far as they can move horizontally. Now if you have a staircase (not ladders) in the ruins beasts could use that to get above ground level. But In order to get back onto the ground they would need to use another slope to get down.

In fact it should be noted that if the slope to a second level in a building is big enough you could even drive a LR onto the second floor of a ruin.

Okay. Here goes.

Quoted from the YMDC sticky:

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General

The rules are written so that a more specific rule supercedes a general rule. If your argument fails to take more specific rules into account, then your argument is flawed.

i.e. the general rule states that units cannot regroup if below 50%. But space marines follow And They Shall Know No Fear, which allows them to regroup even when below 50%. That rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation."

The rule for "Beasts" references movement, and what beasts count as while they are moving (I've already shown that "moves like infantry" is semantically the same as "regarded as infantry when moving." The MORE SPECIFIC rule for "ruins" invokes "movement" on the upper floors of ruins. Because beasts move like infantry, and the ruins rules refer to "movement," the only conclusion supported by the rules of the English language and the codex is that Beasts are considered infantry for the purposes of movement, and are therefore allowed to move, like infantry, on the upper floors of buildings.

I ONCE AGAIN CALL FOR AN ORK FACEPALM ICON.

shrug

Beasts still have to follow 40k rules.

Those rules actually say ColonelEllios is wrong.

On page 83.

(Tip: The word "only" is important.)

ColonelEllios wrote:Okay. Here goes.

Quoted from the YMDC sticky:

"Forgetting That the Specific Overrules the General

The rules are written so that a more specific rule supercedes a general rule. If your argument fails to take more specific rules into account, then your argument is flawed.

i.e. the general rule states that units cannot regroup if below 50%. But space marines follow And They Shall Know No Fear, which allows them to regroup even when below 50%. That rule is more specific because it applies to a smaller group or more specific situation."

The rule for "Beasts" references movement, and what beasts count as while they are moving (I've already shown that "moves like infantry" is semantically the same as "regarded as infantry when moving." The MORE SPECIFIC rule for "ruins" invokes "movement" on the upper floors of ruins. Because beasts move like infantry, and the ruins rules refer to "movement," the only conclusion supported by the rules of the English language and the codex is that Beasts are considered infantry for the purposes of movement, and are therefore allowed to move, like infantry, on the upper floors of buildings.

Course, for your argument to work, you have to ignore the more specific rule that says only these unit types can move into the upper levels.
Again, Beast are not Infantry, no matter how they move. The rules for ruins limit what unit types can move into the upper levels, and Beasts are not one of those unit types.

Beasts cannot go up floors, if a man barks like a dog, he does not become a dog, if a man walks like a duck, he is not a duck, and for your argument to work it would state something such as, "Move like infantry and changes the beast unit type to infantry unit type" At no point does a model magically change from one type to another. It states only certain unit types may climb up walls. The beast type is not mentioned, and although you may quote move as infantry all you like, it nowhere says "removes beast type and becomes basic infantry."

How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

Night Lords wrote:How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

Now back to the rule. no models have rules for moving vertically. You must move horizontally. Ruins works differently and some models now get the option of moving vertically. 3" Vertical movement for every 3" they can move horizontally. These lucky models are Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and Walkers

Night Lords wrote:How does moving through ruins have nothing to do with moving?

Beasts are considered to be infantry in the movement phase. They are Infantry -> Beasts -> Beasts.

If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase, I guess by this logic that my winged daemon prince doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests either because only jump infantry have to, and hes a MC. (However, he doesnt because he moves like jump infantry and takes all their rules).

OH PLEASE GIVE US A FACEPALM ORK!!!!!

Moves like does not ANYWHERE mean becomes.

"If youre going to claim beasts are not infantry in the movement phase"

I will not claim it. I state it as fact and have shown the actual text proving it.

Tri wrote:
Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

Now back to the rule. no models have rules for moving vertically. You must move horizontally. Ruins works differently and some models now get the option of moving vertically. 3" Vertical movement for every 3" they can move horizontally. These lucky models are Infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, MC and Walkers

Just like how when you move as infantry you may move into ruins. No difference between:

(A)"Infantry, jump infantry...etc (doesnt list beasts) may move into ruins"

(B)"If a jump infantry model lands in....it takes a dangerous terrain test"

You argue either both count as the models theyre moving as, or you argue neither can/have to do these thing, because their model type isnt listed.

Winged DP is a monstrous creature that has the option of moving like a Jump Infantry.

The assinine position that its BECOMING Jump Infantry would force said DP to LOOSE his MC status during movement - for no reason in the rules.

The same applies to Beasts.
Nothing in the rules _ever_ stops them from being a "Beast", and thus they must _always_ follow all restrictions and rules that cover Beasts.

Also note (this is another repetition): Movement rules =/= Ruins rules. Following Movement rules for infantry has no bearing on the Ruins rules. They are not even in the same section.