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So then the prince doesnt take dangerous terrain tests when he lands. I play both CSM and tyranids, one has beasts and both have winged MCs. So either way Im getting something out of it.

You must follow all rules of the game at all times.

To pick and choose ones to follow is cheating.

Beasts are always beasts.
Winged DP are always MC.

Both must follow restrictions based on that - IN ADDITION TO ANYTHING ELSE.

kirsanth wrote:You must follow all rules of the game at all times.

To pick and choose ones to follow is cheating.

Beasts are always beasts.
Winged DP are always MC.

Both must follow restrictions based on that - IN ADDITION TO ANYTHING ELSE.

Are you even reading the posts are can you not see over your annoying capitalized words?

I said if youre going to play it like that for beasts, then you must apply it to every other rule where a unit is acting like another one. In my example, A daemon prince is a MC. Dangerous terrain checks for landing in cover are only for jump infantry. Therefore my prince would not have to take a dangerous terrain test, as MCs are not listed under dangerous terrain jumps.

doubled wrote:Beasts cannot go up floors, if a man barks like a dog, he does not become a dog, if a man walks like a duck, he is not a duck, and for your argument to work it would state something such as, "Move like infantry and changes the beast unit type to infantry unit type" At no point does a model magically change from one type to another. It states only certain unit types may climb up walls. The beast type is not mentioned, and although you may quote move as infantry all you like, it nowhere says "removes beast type and becomes basic infantry."

lol, that's funny!
Good Analogy.
But the fact remains.
Infantry MOVE through ruins
Beasts MOVE like infantry.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

lol, that's funny!
Good Analogy.
But the fact remains.
Infantry MOVE through ruins
Beasts MOVE like infantry.

Im having a really hard time understanding how people can say differently. It doesnt matter if the unit type is something else. Beasts move like infantry, which possess the ability to move through ruins.

How can this thread still be going? It's perfectly clear in the rulebook on page 83 that not only is it "only infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin", but also that "Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin".

It specifies that if it is not infantry, a jetbike, a MC or walker it CAN'T do it. Whether it moves like them or not doesn't make the slighest bit of difference (moving within ruins has it's own list of rules that override the normal rules for moving).

If these other units could then why state in black and white that they can't?

Moving through Ruins is an addition to the movement rules and not part of the standard rules inherited by beast.

But I'll humour you. Ok answer this, and if you can i'll agree that beast can move in above the ground floor of ruins.

Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

I'm sure he'll find a way...but it's ok because we know we are right.

I simply love the image of a bunch of Guardsmen running up a flight of stairs only to turn and see a stack of H-Gaunts milling about down the bottom, unable to climb.

Trying to play 40K via RAW is a fool's errand. It only leads to situations like this.

@Tri: Okay, you got me. RAW, you are right. But what about ramps and stuff leading to SLIGHTLY elevated areas? I'm gonna go with H.B.M.C. ...Just to annoy you.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I simply love the image of a bunch of Guardsmen running up a flight of stairs only to turn and see a stack of H-Gaunts milling about down the bottom, unable to climb.

Trying to play 40K via RAW is a fool's errand. It only leads to situations like this.

(edit ...and @Emperors Faithful ) Not true if there was a stair case then they could also use it but they don't gain the bonus rule that lets them move vertically. That said Hormagaunts do have a solution, they just take flesh hooks, now that impassible vertical terrain is just difficult.

Tri wrote:
Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

Thank you Tri, that pretty much closes up the argument here.

Tri wrote:M
Why would MC be listed and not beast? (MC also move like infantry only difference is they get move through cover)

Im not sure how this is relevant. Monstrous Creatures move like Monstrous Creatures. The difference is MCs can move things in their path, which infantry cant do. Beasts however are just infantry, there is absolute no difference between them.

Again, I dont really care. If you want to argue unit types like this, my winged hive tyrant and winged daemon prince dont have to take dangerous terrain tests when landing in/taking off from cover, so it would only be to my advantage to argue your way.

I just find its mind boggling how people on here cant put two and two together. People read the rules individually or only read part of the rules.

Troll +1 ?

kirsanth wrote:Troll +1 ?

Youre calling me a troll because I disagree? Yet all you do is post in capital letters and post completely offtopic garbage?

Because you disagree? No.
Not at all.

I disagree with just about everything you have said, but I called you a troll for ignoring the actual posts involving rules to say things like "Well if you say that the rules mean that, then I am going to break a different rule instead!"

And yes, that was paraphrasing.

IIRC I wrote half of one sentence in caps, nice you saw that.

Edited to add: I did call for a facepalm ork in caps too. . . Although I will do that again, I daresay.
I actually thought you were trolling for fun/amusment. I find it hard to believe that you find so much of this questionable.

kirsanth wrote:Because you disagree? No.
Not at all.

I disagree with just about everything you have said, but I called you a troll for ignoring the actual posts involving rules to say things like "Well if you say that the rules mean that, then I am going to break a different rule instead!"

And yes, that was paraphrasing.

IIRC I wrote half of one sentence in caps, nice you saw that.

Are you dense? The rules in question are exactly the same. They both list unit types that are associated with something, and both cases have a unit type moving like another. This is yet another thing i find hilarious - people will argue a rule one way, but then with another rule that is exactly the same, theyll argue it the other way! uhh...WTF?

You can only have it one way:

(1) If you argue beasts cant move up stairs, then you have to agree that any (non JI) winged unit in the game doesnt have to take dangerous terrain tests.
OR
(2) If you argue beasts can move up stairs, then you have to agree that any model with wings that moves like JI that turn must take a dangerous terrain test.

Exactly the same? No. They are not exactly the same, first off.

And it is not 1 or 2.

You argue that SOME rule has to be broken, when that is patently false. So no. I do NOT have to agree with either of your points.

They are both wrong. Myself and other have repeatedly posted why. Should I repeat them for you in caps so you read them?

This is the only explanation given:

Tri wrote:

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

"Models with wings move in the same way (Read: Like) as Jump Infantry" - Daemon Prince is MC

Followed by:

"If a moving Jump Infantry model....it must take a dangerous terrain test" - Daemon Prince is a MC model.

Exact same situation as Beasts and "moves like". Go ahead and try to explain it, Ill be amused.

EDIT: By the way, no one repeatedly explained why, and you never explained why and only said "You cant pick and choose". What world do you live in? Seriously.

Night Lords wrote:This is the only explanation given:

Tri wrote:

Oh no thats wrong. If you move as a MC you don't take a dangerous terrain test, you do if you move as jump infantry.

"Models with wings move in the same way (Read: Like) as Jump Infantry" - Daemon Prince is MC

Followed by:

"If a moving Jump Infantry model....it must take a dangerous terrain test" - Daemon Prince is a MC model.

Exact same situation as Beasts and "moves like". Go ahead and try to explain it, Ill be amused.

EDIT: By the way, no one repeatedly explained why, and you never explained why and only said "You cant pick and choose". What world do you live in? Seriously.

Jump infantry may move like infantry there for no need to test fore dangerouse terrain. Being MC and Jump infanty he can ether move as Jump infantry and MC or as infantry and MC (because moving as an infantry and MC are the same as a MC he just moves as MC).

As a hybrid with both rules if he moves into difficult terrain while using the jump infantry rules then he will take a dangerous terrain test. However he gains an extra dice for the MC move through cover.

Tri wrote:

Jump infantry may move like infantry there for no need to test fore dangerouse terrain. Being MC and Jump infanty he can ether move as Jump infantry and MC or as infantry and MC (because moving as an infantry and MC are the same as a MC he just moves as MC).

As a hybrid with both rules if he moves into difficult terrain while using the jump infantry rules then he will take a dangerous terrain test. However he gains an extra dice for the MC move through cover.

No, it says only jump infantry models have to take a test. A daemon prince is a Monstrous Creature. A raptor would be an example of a Jump Infantry type model.

Just like how youre arguing only Infantry, JI, MCs, etc. can move into ruins and anything else cant because theyre not listed. MCs are not listed under dangerous terrain tests. You are arguing one way for one issue and then the other way for the other.

First:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216106.page#351042
This is part of the "Repeatedly" and may explain why I said this has been done.

Second:
The question is about beasts in the upper levels of ruins and can be answered in one place - the rules for ruins. And thus the buildings and ruins section. It may seem odd, but this is not in the Movement section. The ruins section actually has a place that lists every single unit type that can be placed in the upper levels of ruins legally. Beasts are not in that list. So my assertion is that any unit that includes beasts cannot be placed in the upper levels of ruins legally.

So you can keep looking for rules that let you, if you like but the point is already proven in the only text that matters.

Third:
If you like to assume they are infantry in the movement phase, how will you explain them being there in other phases?

Fourth:
As beasts that move like infantry you can say infantry can move up levels. They are not infantry however many times you disagree - they only move as infantry. No where in any rules quoted does it say they become infantry.
Even if they did say that, it does not matter. It would need to say that the unit also stops being Beasts. As there is not restriction on the number of unit types and in fact there is some precidence for multiples anyway.

I will go on later, this is far from the end of the text that relates. I will try to find some rules that can back your side too, I play Tyranids and this was one of the most absurd this from the rules that came to mind as I read 5e the first time. But I daresay there is nothing to find on that front - it has been tried and found lacking in the face of what the text says.

There is nothing in that link at all that somehow changes the fact that you have to go one way or the other. If you agree with yakface and you get all the associated benefits, then beasts get the benefit of infantry being allowed to move through ruins. If you want to talk model types, the MC type is not listed under the Jump Infantry therefore they dont take tests.

You keep saying you refer to "ruins", but its no different than referring to "jump infantry" and the sentences about landing in DT. Both list the model types associated with the rule. Beasts and MCs are not listed in the seperate lists. So pick the way you want to play units that count as moving as something else, not picking and choosing in some made up game.

Modquisition on:
This thread has been reported, and appropriately so.
Gentlemen, there are only three rules on Dakka. The first is: be polite. Insults, flaming, and besmirching of character of other posters is not acceptable. Argue the merits of the issue and avoid flaming the other posters. If you cannot do that, then do not post in this thread or put other posters on IGNORE.

Consider this a public warning to all posters on this thread.

I hate people that selectively read

Movement ... "begins or ends its move in difficult tertian must take a dangerous terrain test" fine but thats ONLY if they are using the jump pack.

Read the first and second line " Jump infantry can use their jump pack and move up to 12" in the movement phase. This is optional and the can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish" Every thing below that is using the jump pack so if they don't use it they don't take a test.

...And because i can read your mind if they deep strike they would have to test as they are using the pack to deep strike.

I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

kirsanth wrote:I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

You are right, the winged Tyrants count as jump infantry in all respects. I was reading wings out of my CSM codex.

However, Tri is still wrong about winged Princes

EDIT #2: Well, hes not wrong, I actually agree with him, but by following that rule, you must allow beasts to move as infantry and through ruins as well.

Night Lords wrote:

kirsanth wrote:I think I understand part of my issue with Night Lords now.

We are both(!!) mixing up winged.

Winged Tyrants _are_ jump infantry.

Winged DP move as.

Tyrants do need to make DT tests, DP would not.

I only play Tyranids - my confusion in his assertion was that he gets something for both armies either way.

Tyranids do not get any bonus.

Other than that, I think we basically agree.

Maybe.

You are right, the winged Tyrants count as jump infantry in all respects. I was reading wings out of my CSM codex.

However, Tri is still wrong about winged Princes

EDIT #2: Well, hes not wrong, I actually agree with him, but by following that rule, you must allow beasts to move as infantry and through ruins as well.

In a friendly game i may do just that. But the rules for ruins are the only reason any models can move vertically beast aren't listed as one of those that can move vertically; so unless there's a disabled ramp for them they will be stuck at ground level.

@Nightlords. I see where you are coming from, but there is a big difference between 'moves as' and 'counts as'. DP's move like, but are not jump infantry, therefore jump infantry rules do not apply to them for the purposes of difficult terrain etc. Winged tyrants ARE jump infantry so they apply the rules for moving through difficult terrain etc.

The reason you cannot allow beasts to move on the upper levels of a ruin is because

"Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin". Page 83.

It's stated in black and white, if it's not in the list (infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers) they can't move higher than the ground level.

Hopefully this has cleared up any confusion, although since I have only posted 3 times in this thread, I don't think I can take any credit. Tri has done all the hard work.

From the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ:

Q. Does taking 'Wings' classify a model as jump infantry?

A. No, it simply allows a model to move like jump infantry...

The same applies here. The model simply moves like infantry. It does not become infantry and therefore it may not enter the upper level of ruins.