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What do you think constitutes a competitive Space Marine list. Especially one that doesn't rely on named characters?

What do you see in Space Marine lists that are winning tournaments in your area?

If you are looking for the cookie cutter template.... (I didn't concept this list, Stelek did... although I play with a variation)

master of the forge with conversion beamer

MM dread
MM dread
MM dread

5 scouts camo cloaks missile launcher
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino

MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder

AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator


The core of the list is really the tac squads, predators, dreads and speeders.

Its all mechanized except one unit that likely has a 2+ cover save... it has decent light vehicle kill, and is designed to get to the middle of the table and set up a shield wall of multi-melta fire. Enemy units who hang back get tackled by the deep striking speeders. This kind of play makes objective taking easy.


To move away from cookie cutter, I would recommend buying either a drop pod, land raider or a rhino for every squad that can have one. Be sure to have an ample amount of light vehicle and heavy vehicle kill. Use the best weapons for that job available. Try to keep each unit able to fulfill more than one role (just passing on wisdom that I didn't originate) space marines probably have access to the most 'dual purpose' units. MM/HF, MM/bolter/flamer, AC/HB, MM/DCCW. Everything in the list goes against infantry as well as vehicles.

Throw me some follow up and questions and I'll be happy to elaborate.

I have seen this list and bear with me as I post my questions.

master of the forge with conversion beamer

I haven't seen this in a list and I am not really impressed. I have found a Librarian in Terminator Armor and Vortex of Doom to be much better. I know it isn't your list, but one character with a single gun looks a little weak on paper.

MM dread
MM dread
MM dread

I have tried fielding multple MM Dreadnoughts on the ground and I have been finding them lackluster for their anti-tank role. They usually get busted or shaken well before a vehicle gets in their range. They are not bad and I have had my moments with them, but I am thinking that you almost always should Drop Pod them.

5 scouts camo cloaks missile launcher
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino

I have actually started to consider Lascannons in my Tactical Squads again, they are almost always mounted, but they tend to have to sit still to hold an objective and the extra range is fun. They are cheap enough.

MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder

I like this.

AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator

This is probably my biggest question. It wasn;t until I started seeing them in lists that I ever considered them to be a really good option. I my mind they always compete with Vindicators and Whirlwinds. What do they offer to a list? I am curious.

Thank you for the tips.

Mahu wrote:I have seen this list and bear with me as I post my questions.

master of the forge with conversion beamer

I haven't seen this in a list and I am not really impressed. I have found a Librarian in Terminator Armor and Vortex of Doom to be much better. I know it isn't your list, but one character with a single gun looks a little weak on paper.

Like I said, He's not really a feature of the army. Space marines are required to take an HQ. And in a tactical move and shoot (i.e. not CC) marine army, there isn't any good choice. He's not in there to blow your mind. But he does have long range anti-transport, which makes him better than the rest in the context of the list.

Mahu wrote:

MM dread
MM dread
MM dread

I have tried fielding multple MM Dreadnoughts on the ground and I have been finding them lackluster for their anti-tank role. They usually get busted or shaken well before a vehicle gets in their range. They are not bad and I have had my moments with them, but I am thinking that you almost always should Drop Pod them.

They shouldn't really get shot up. I use them in one of two roles. Either one dreadnought behind each predator, when I am facing an army that I am going to outshoot. We'll talk more about the predator later, but its VERY difficult to kill from long range in its front armor in 5th edition. The best ways to kill it are to close the distance. Those dreadnoughts are there to deny your enemy the ability to transport troops there. Many opponents also use close combat to hurt tanks. They will have to shoot your dreadnoughts dead before they can brave a charge on the vehicle the dreadnought is guarding, if they do that, then your vehicle is unharmed and moving away from the assault. You can drop pod the dreads if you want, but the reason its not the right choice is that you are placing your dreads right next to your opponents meltaguns. The weapons designed to kill them, they are completely unsupported a melta armed unit can shoot them dead, and they aren't facing immediate retribution from the rest of your army. Conversely, melta armed transports can close the distance to your tac squads and predators, and pop them easily without the mobile multi-melta and CC potential of the dreadnought lurking nearby.

Mahu wrote:

5 scouts camo cloaks missile launcher
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino

I have actually started to consider Lascannons in my Tactical Squads again, they are almost always mounted, but they tend to have to sit still to hold an objective and the extra range is fun. They are cheap enough.

I have found multi-meltas to be better than lascannons, even if the lascannon had the same price tag. The only advantage that the lascannon can truly claim is the long range. Once I figured out how best to advance my tac squads into the center of the table (and thus have the best chance at claiming objectives easily and denying objective movement to my opponent) then the much more decisive MM shot became a no brainer.

Mahu wrote:

AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator

This is probably my biggest question. It wasn;t until I started seeing them in lists that I ever considered them to be a really good option. I my mind they always compete with Vindicators and Whirlwinds. What do they offer to a list? I am curious.

Rhino kill, chimera kill. Anti-infantry once the light and medium transports are dead. Whirlwind is better at infantry duties (although I personally shun any 'single shot' choices, even the large blast variety) But doesn't peel armor as well, the vindicator I would say was a better choice for redundant anti-vehicle/anti-infantry, but unfortunately it has a major weakness. It's short 24" range puts it perilously close to mobile multi-melta, and side and rear shots from outflankers and fast tank hunters like vendettas. It also isn't 85 points. I like the vindicator, but it is too easily countered by a lot of the popular power armies.

Mahu wrote:Thank you for the tips.

You're welcome. Of course I'm not advocating just taking someone's list off of the internet and using it. I adapted that list to dark angels with sammael on speeder and it has been performing remarkably well.

I know it looks like I just picked one tank, took three, then picked another tank, took three and moved on, but there is much more synergy than that. With the 3 MMs and the 6 mobile MMs, the armor spamming, the way that dreadnoughts can fire around the rhino hull to get a 4+ save while unloading multi-melta, and the predator being a very sturdy and cheap platform to supply extra light vehicle along with multi-purpose MC and infantry kill, it really has all of the bases covered for infantry hordes, land raider spammers, chimera spammers, and really any kind of mechanized list, and it also happens o be very aggressive, which helps a lot when 66% of basic games are objective related. The more lascannons, and marines on foot you take, the less aggressive your list becomes. And space marines just can't get into a 'dig in and shoot it out' match against armies like tau and IG, or even horde orks.

multimelta land speeders are really strong in the mech filled current metagame. Any list with three of those and some strong anti-horde options (like all the dakka preds and flamer dreads) will do OK

The major weakness of this army would probably be a tough CC force. I run a Khorne list with a lot of Land Raiders, and while meltas can mess me up, even then raiders are highly resilient. Once those zerks get into CC, the Marines and their transports won't last long, and MCs such as Greater Daemons and DPs can take out alot of dreadnoughts before they get taken down, thanks to good Initiative, 2D6 armor pen, and immunity to Instant Death through double strength weapons. Those rhinos will have to move for the first turn or two to get into position, denying the tac marines the opportunity to fire for those turns, and by then, any CC general worth his salt will be on top of you.

I think you will see this list struggling against anything with sufficient AT. The bulk of the force is focused on low-medium AV values (10-12), and a dedicated group of Vendettas, which can play tag with your speeders while firing Lascannons, or a successful deep strike by Chaos suicide terminators, or a Nidzilla list, could take apart the speeders and the dreads from range fairly easily, without really worrying about ACs or HBs from your Preds.

The biggest threat here is the abundance of MMs, which, though dangerous, are relatively short ranged, and the right armies can dodge out of their way or bring them down with the right troops without much trouble.

Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge of the SM codex to provide many suggestions in the way of alternatives.

Shep wrote:If you are looking for the cookie cutter template.... (I didn't concept this list, Stelek did... although I play with a variation)

master of the forge with conversion beamer

MM dread
MM dread
MM dread

5 scouts camo cloaks missile launcher
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino
10x tacs flamer/MM rhino

MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder
MM/HF speeder

AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator
AC/HB predator


The core of the list is really the tac squads, predators, dreads and speeders.

Its all mechanized except one unit that likely has a 2+ cover save... it has decent light vehicle kill, and is designed to get to the middle of the table and set up a shield wall of multi-melta fire. Enemy units who hang back get tackled by the deep striking speeders. This kind of play makes objective taking easy.


To move away from cookie cutter, I would recommend buying either a drop pod, land raider or a rhino for every squad that can have one. Be sure to have an ample amount of light vehicle and heavy vehicle kill. Use the best weapons for that job available. Try to keep each unit able to fulfill more than one role (just passing on wisdom that I didn't originate) space marines probably have access to the most 'dual purpose' units. MM/HF, MM/bolter/flamer, AC/HB, MM/DCCW. Everything in the list goes against infantry as well as vehicles.

Throw me some follow up and questions and I'll be happy to elaborate.

I used this list when I was getting back into marines and the things i found to be lacking are the MoTF and the scouts. They really didnt do anything for me at all before i stopped taking them. I think in the last tournament my scouts maybe killed 2 models the entire tournament. So I dropped the scouts and MoTF and took vulkan. I know not everyone wants a vulkan army but if your taking that many melta's ( and roll as poorly as I do) he makes so much of a difference. My army was vastly more effective with him instead. He also gives you a character that isnt too shabby in CC to finish off anything that might make it past your guns.

Other than that the list is filled with solid choices. I love my MM/HF speeders and dreads. I played a lot of power army armies at first but once I played a few games against eldar and IG the ability to wipe out a squad with a single flamer shot from a speeder is so amazingly usefull. Wiping out a unit of nob bikers by hitting them with all 4 of your speeder heavy flamers in a single turn is awesome.

I have been finding the heavy bolters on my pred's to be lacking. I would say 4 of my last 5 games I had wished they were lascannons. With the right application of flamers I could see switching the pred's to a long range anti-transport / light vehicle role as more productive.

Another thing I've found is that the tactical squads are much more better served with meltaguns instead of flamers. I've switched mine over and have not regretted it at all. With the amount of vehicle mounted heavy flamers and the dakka pred's I found them to be redundant and I was usually wishing for the melta.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

fatal_GRACE wrote:The major weakness of this army would probably be a tough CC force. I run a Khorne list with a lot of Land Raiders, and while meltas can mess me up, even then raiders are highly resilient. Once those zerks get into CC, the Marines and their transports won't last long, and MCs such as Greater Daemons and DPs can take out alot of dreadnoughts before they get taken down, thanks to good Initiative, 2D6 armor pen, and immunity to Instant Death through double strength weapons. Those rhinos will have to move for the first turn or two to get into position, denying the tac marines the opportunity to fire for those turns, and by then, any CC general worth his salt will be on top of you.

I think you will see this list struggling against anything with sufficient AT. The bulk of the force is focused on low-medium AV values (10-12), and a dedicated group of Vendettas, which can play tag with your speeders while firing Lascannons, or a successful deep strike by Chaos suicide terminators, or a Nidzilla list, could take apart the speeders and the dreads from range fairly easily, without really worrying about ACs or HBs from your Preds.

The biggest threat here is the abundance of MMs, which, though dangerous, are relatively short ranged, and the right armies can dodge out of their way or bring them down with the right troops without much trouble.

Unfortunately, I don't have the knowledge of the SM codex to provide many suggestions in the way of alternatives.

I will have to disagree with a lot of your points. Not many MC's are going to survive 10 multi-melta shots to the face. Especially if you take the vulkan variant. Land raiders dont last against this list. I've been playing it for a few months now and i've only had 1 game against a land raider where I didnt destroy it by turn 2 and it was immobilized without most of its weapons.

I do agree that the list as shep posted it is vulnerable to CC. I played the list with the scouts and the MoTF and got romped by a 3 land raider khorne army in KP mission. All his raiders were toast but I couldnt do anything against the zerkers. Thats why I've taken to using vulkan, powerfist sgt's, and a redeemer in my list to help.

I have yet to play against vendetta's but suicide melta squads and nidzilla dont scare me at all. I've played them and beat them with this list. Nidzilla really cant do anything against massed twin linked multi-melta's. Any decent player will know hot to protect against deep strikers.

For the record the list I've taken to using now, which is an evolution of the list shep posted, is:

Vulkan

MM/HF dread

MM/HF dread

tac squad with MM/MG/ powerfist and combimelta sgt (ride in redeemer with vulkan)

tac squad with MM/MG in rhino

tac squad with MM/MG in rhino

2x MM/HF speeders

2x MM/HF speeders

dakka pred

dakka pred

Redeemer with MM

Well, I can't say I have faced this particular list at all, so alot of my judgments are based on observations, and there can be a big difference between how it looks on paper and how it plays in-game.

One thing worth pointing out, though, is that your list is considerably more killy than the previous one - TL on the meltas makes a huge difference. I still think nidzilla would stand up well - a boomfex or sniperfex has longer range than a melta or MM, and though a given MC won't stand up against 10 melta shots, when there are 8 of them, you have to split your fire alot.

In alot of armies with raiders, such as the one you mentioned (which is similar to mine), the raider isn't as big a loss, despite it's cost, as you would think.

Keep in mind, though, that these aremy opinions based on past games with my army and against other melta heavy lists (like vet air cav). Probably, I am less than correct.

fatal_GRACE wrote:Well, I can't say I have faced this particular list at all, so alot of my judgments are based on observations, and there can be a big difference between how it looks on paper and how it plays in-game.

One thing worth pointing out, though, is that your list is considerably more killy than the previous one - TL on the meltas makes a huge difference. I still think nidzilla would stand up well - a boomfex or sniperfex has longer range than a melta or MM, and though a given MC won't stand up against 10 melta shots, when there are 8 of them, you have to split your fire alot.

In alot of armies with raiders, such as the one you mentioned (which is similar to mine), the raider isn't as big a loss, despite it's cost, as you would think.

Keep in mind, though, that these aremy opinions based on past games with my army and against other melta heavy lists (like vet air cav). Probably, I am less than correct.

As someone who has both played against melta heavy marines with nidzilla and played against them the bugs just dont stand up to it. I dont think Ive failed to table a nidzilla army since I've started using vulkan. I can relatively easily drop 2 MC's a turn and nid shooting just isnt all that in 5th.

I understand what your saying about the raiders, thats why i've tried to take steps to make it so a squad of berzerkers isnt chewing up my entire army themselfs.

I do understand and respect your opinion and I'm just giving mine as someone who has played both the list shep presented and my modified version for the last few months. I've yet to face the air cav version of the new guard list but have done fairly well against the chimera spam version. I'm still waiting on more games against them to decide if i'm going to change my entire list just for them. One version I'm considering is dropping the redeemer for 2 more speeders, lascannon sponsons on the preds and the rhino for the 3rd tac squad. ut I'd have to play that out and see how it does.

For the record the list I've taken to using now, which is an evolution of the list shep posted, is:

Nice, that is pretty much my updated Salamander list, just need to buy a predator and a couple speeders. Glad to hear I wasn't crazy for not getting t-hammer terminators right away.

I can relatively easily drop 2 MC's a turn and nid shooting just isnt all that in 5th.

yeah without the easily gotten cover saves of 4ed, nidzilla is easy prey for this type of list.

I have played against this Space Marine list with my Blood Angels. My Blood Angels army is mechanized except for Dante and a full squad of VAS (3x power fist & 2x meltagun, jump packs). The mission was objective based but if you tied then you used kill points for the tie breaker. We only got to play three turns because my opponent was a very slow player and did not have a good grasp of the rules. We tied on I objectives but I got the win via kill points. If the game had gone one more turn I would have definitely won by a major margin and five turns I would have massacred. I shot down all the dreadnaughts with meltaguns and my Baal predators' assault cannons. I next killed two of the landspeeders with bolter fire and meltaguns. Once you have eliminated the dradnaughts this army folds up quickly in close combat. By opponent was shocked how easily I handled his list and asked for my advice how he could strengthen his army. The list is pretty much min maxed with the dreadnaughts, predators and landspeeders; the troops are very weak on close combat against any unit that is dedicated for assaults. I told him to drop a dreadnaught, landspeeder and two predators plus the MotF so he could replace them with Vulkan and field a big unit of assault terminators. He followed my suggestions and won best general in the following tournament plus he said his new list is a lot more fun to play.

G

Yeah... with that many MMs and Flamers, it's really screaming for Vulkan in there.

Well, I was trying to avoid a Vulkan list. I think Space Marines can be highly competitive without him.

I have been playing from the Marine Codex for about a month or so now, and I am finding the Terminator Librarian w/ Storm Sheild, Null Zone and Vortex to be most worth it. Especially against Nob Bikerz and heavy armor. I have even had some good success with deep striking standard terminators with a heavy flamer to back them up.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have played against this Space Marine list with my Blood Angels. My Blood Angels army is mechanized except for Dante and a full squad of VAS (3x power fist & 2x meltagun, jump packs). The mission was objective based but if you tied then you used kill points for the tie breaker. We only got to play three turns because my opponent was a very slow player and did not have a good grasp of the rules. We tied on I objectives but I got the win via kill points. If the game had gone one more turn I would have definitely won by a major margin and five turns I would have massacred. I shot down all the dreadnaughts with meltaguns and my Baal predators' assault cannons. I next killed two of the landspeeders with bolter fire and meltaguns. Once you have eliminated the dradnaughts this army folds up quickly in close combat. By opponent was shocked how easily I handled his list and asked for my advice how he could strengthen his army. The list is pretty much min maxed with the dreadnaughts, predators and landspeeders; the troops are very weak on close combat against any unit that is dedicated for assaults. I told him to drop a dreadnaught, landspeeder and two predators plus the MotF so he could replace them with Vulkan and field a big unit of assault terminators. He followed my suggestions and won best general in the following tournament plus he said his new list is a lot more fun to play.

G

I usually do really well against incompetent players too. Good job, mate.

When I use them, I use two MM dreads and pod them along with a unit of podding sternguard. The MM Dreads drop on turn 1 in the DPA and the Sterns drop whenever they come in. This lets them get their shots off and most likely a charge (depends on placement/scatter) before the dreads get in trouble. My sternguard have a couple combi-meltas and combi-flamers in there to do mopup work.

That your bitter vitriol elsewhere.

G

willydstyle wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have played against this Space Marine list with my Blood Angels. My Blood Angels army is mechanized except for Dante and a full squad of VAS (3x power fist & 2x meltagun, jump packs). The mission was objective based but if you tied then you used kill points for the tie breaker. We only got to play three turns because my opponent was a very slow player and did not have a good grasp of the rules. We tied on I objectives but I got the win via kill points. If the game had gone one more turn I would have definitely won by a major margin and five turns I would have massacred. I shot down all the dreadnaughts with meltaguns and my Baal predators' assault cannons. I next killed two of the landspeeders with bolter fire and meltaguns. Once you have eliminated the dradnaughts this army folds up quickly in close combat. By opponent was shocked how easily I handled his list and asked for my advice how he could strengthen his army. The list is pretty much min maxed with the dreadnaughts, predators and landspeeders; the troops are very weak on close combat against any unit that is dedicated for assaults. I told him to drop a dreadnaught, landspeeder and two predators plus the MotF so he could replace them with Vulkan and field a big unit of assault terminators. He followed my suggestions and won best general in the following tournament plus he said his new list is a lot more fun to play.

G

I usually do really well against incompetent players too. Good job, mate.

willydstyle wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have played against this Space Marine list with my Blood Angels. My Blood Angels army is mechanized except for Dante and a full squad of VAS (3x power fist & 2x meltagun, jump packs). The mission was objective based but if you tied then you used kill points for the tie breaker. We only got to play three turns because my opponent was a very slow player and did not have a good grasp of the rules. We tied on I objectives but I got the win via kill points. If the game had gone one more turn I would have definitely won by a major margin and five turns I would have massacred. I shot down all the dreadnaughts with meltaguns and my Baal predators' assault cannons. I next killed two of the landspeeders with bolter fire and meltaguns. Once you have eliminated the dradnaughts this army folds up quickly in close combat. By opponent was shocked how easily I handled his list and asked for my advice how he could strengthen his army. The list is pretty much min maxed with the dreadnaughts, predators and landspeeders; the troops are very weak on close combat against any unit that is dedicated for assaults. I told him to drop a dreadnaught, landspeeder and two predators plus the MotF so he could replace them with Vulkan and field a big unit of assault terminators. He followed my suggestions and won best general in the following tournament plus he said his new list is a lot more fun to play.

G

I usually do really well against incompetent players too. Good job, mate.

That wasn't really constructive.

Vortex is an awesome power, and I would much rather have that then a conversion beamer. Here is what it did across my last two games.

Game 1 against a highly competitive IG army:

Termy Libby dropped down next to a Colossus, popped a PBS's chimera and killed most of them in the resulting explosion. His hood shut down the squad for the rest of the game save once when he forced the Libby to run, but on the run he stunned a Vendetta for a turn, and killed and stunned a Russ the second turn.

Game 2 against a Chaos list:

Blew a weapon off a defiler and splash damaged some CSM that where deployed to close. Wiped a full three man oblitorator squad in one round, put the final wound on a Deamon Prince.

I think many people only look at that power as bad because of it's down side. But I have yet to ever have that happen to me.

On the other hand, I like the idea of a partial Drop Pod list. I have thought of sticking a Librarian with a unit of Sternguard in a Drop Pod and supporting that with a couple more Dreads in Pods, Tactical Squads in Rhinos, Land Speeders, and Preds.

What are the thoughts on Attack Bikes? I have thought of multiple squads of two with Multimeltas. Being able to turboboast, being cheaper, having more imunity to str 5 - 7 weapons, and never being stunned, sounds really appealing. I have played both HF/MM Land Speaders and Attack Bikes and I am finding I am prefering the Attack Bikes. Am I crazy?

And I didn't think that GBF describing how he beat the crap out of a "really slow player" who didn't really know the rules was constructive.

If someone is new, you can give them the toughest list in the game and they won't know what the hell to do with it.

Not that the Stelek-derived marine list is the toughest list in the game, but it's a pretty good way to run marines, as long as you don't need to rely on a "super unit" to win.

Ill second the librarian with term armour and vortex I just tried this out a few time and love it.


Especially if you run two and some sternguard.


Here is the results of what I have for my two librarian army

Librarian/ nullzone, vortex 140

Librarian/nullzone , vortex 140


Elites

5 Man term w/ 3 Thunderhammer , 2 LC ; Redeemer 465

Ten Man Sternguard w/ Drop Pod , 10 combimeltas 335



Thats the "core" of the army The goal is really first turn alphastrike ; I fill the rest of the army out generally based on points left over since I generally always have 1 drop I always get that 10 man Sternguard into range ; now add in I can combat squad as well as move 12 and cast nullzone. This enables me to Produce nullzone into the opponents back field and army.


I can't say enough about the librarian w/ Nullzone and Vortex. Fantastic ability especially at dealing with tanks; simply because if you place the template in the middle you have a good chance of even with scatter getting it still a full on.

I think the thing I am going to add to it most of all is a 5 man squad of Space Marine Scout bikes w/ LB to ensure that drop as I never really have faced mystics mostly.

I thought the point of GBF's post was more:
I beat up on this list played by a newish player.
He made changes to the army list that I suggested.
Next tourney, he won Best General.

I didn't think it was:
Hey, look at me, I beat up on a newish player with this 'netdeck list.

Like all 'netdeck lists, it has a weakness - people know it's out there and people are playing it in the metagame. Marines can be competitive without Vulkan, but if you're fielding Thunderhammers, Meltas, and Flamers, he makes them better without losing much.

Someone asked about the Whirlwind. I've been fielding 1 Whirlwind and 1 AC/HB Predator in my SW lists. The WW is pretty solid. It's not spectacular, but the Incindeary rounds are pretty brutal. I think it's under-rated. But, the Autocannon on the Predator always performs well too. I think going with 1 WW and 1 Pred or even 1 WW and 2 Pred is a strong consideration. It really depends on what role you need in the list. personally, big mobs of orks with a KFF is a problem for me, and the WW fixes that (it also deals really well with Eldar guardians hiding in the wreckage of their wave serpent).

willydstyle wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have played against this Space Marine list with my Blood Angels. My Blood Angels army is mechanized except for Dante and a full squad of VAS (3x power fist & 2x meltagun, jump packs). The mission was objective based but if you tied then you used kill points for the tie breaker. We only got to play three turns because my opponent was a very slow player and did not have a good grasp of the rules. We tied on I objectives but I got the win via kill points. If the game had gone one more turn I would have definitely won by a major margin and five turns I would have massacred. I shot down all the dreadnaughts with meltaguns and my Baal predators' assault cannons. I next killed two of the landspeeders with bolter fire and meltaguns. Once you have eliminated the dradnaughts this army folds up quickly in close combat. By opponent was shocked how easily I handled his list and asked for my advice how he could strengthen his army. The list is pretty much min maxed with the dreadnaughts, predators and landspeeders; the troops are very weak on close combat against any unit that is dedicated for assaults. I told him to drop a dreadnaught, landspeeder and two predators plus the MotF so he could replace them with Vulkan and field a big unit of assault terminators. He followed my suggestions and won best general in the following tournament plus he said his new list is a lot more fun to play.

G

I usually do really well against incompetent players too. Good job, mate.

Read again, that "incompetent player" won best general at his next event, so maybe he wasn't so "incompetent" after all. Maybe GBF is on to something that the Blood Angels can match this list for firepower and have an edge in CC.

EDIT:

And apparently I'm late to the party...

If you think someone that won best general out of over 24 players is an amateur I think you are sod off a long ways. I was able to make the Stelek list into something with a punch, which it really needs. The lack of close combat prowess is very telling and easily exploited. Three dreadnaughts just don't cut it.

Sheeps say "baaaaa".

G

willydstyle wrote:And I didn't think that GBF describing how he beat the crap out of a "really slow player" who didn't really know the rules was constructive.

If someone is new, you can give them the toughest list in the game and they won't know what the hell to do with it.

Not that the Stelek-derived marine list is the toughest list in the game, but it's a pretty good way to run marines, as long as you don't need to rely on a "super unit" to win.

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you think someone that won best general out of over 24 players is an amateur I think you are sod off a long ways. I was able to make the Stelek list into something with a punch, which it really needs. The lack of close combat prowess is very telling and easily exploited. Three dreadnaughts just don't cut it.

Sheeps say "baaaaa".

G

willydstyle wrote:And I didn't think that GBF describing how he beat the crap out of a "really slow player" who didn't really know the rules was constructive.

If someone is new, you can give them the toughest list in the game and they won't know what the hell to do with it.

Not that the Stelek-derived marine list is the toughest list in the game, but it's a pretty good way to run marines, as long as you don't need to rely on a "super unit" to win.

And thats why I've evolved the list to where I have. You dont need terminators. They are great sure, but you dont need them to be competative with. I havent really had a problem dealing with opposing ones and vulkan and his squad + powerfist are usually good enough to mop up anything I need brought down. The redeemer helps as well as it not only is able to clear out most non-MC assault troops with a shot from its flamestorm but it also is a big threat that will make assault army's have to think hard about if they want to run into flamer range with it sitting there.

Playing a space marine army without a special character is like playing a eldar list without some kind of farseer.

The three special characters that seem to be game changers are Vulkan, Pedro, and maybe Khan.

In a typical list at 1750 I'm brining at least 25 weapons that Vulkan has "upgraded." Rerolling wounds on a flamer is great against orks & IG. Rerrolling to hit on melta weapons helps bring down that big THING that I need gone next turn.

Yes, a libby with terminator armor & a storm shield is a good HQ choice, however I'd rather make my ENTIRE army better for 190 points & get a kick ass close combat threat for free.

Double Stacked Librarians are fantastic taking two of them is just icing.

The game changer really is Vulcan and Shrike ; Pedro is good as well.

Khan's ability is not that great honestly.

I like Lysander and Vulkan together. Lysander can beat down Abbadon and that is in itself is nothing to sneeze at.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I like Lysander and Vulkan together. Lysander can beat down Abbadon and that is in itself is nothing to sneeze at.

G

I agree with this combo and I've been trying to figure out an effective list that contains both of them. I could see a balls to the wall double land raider + character army being fun, not sure about the competitiveness of it, but definitely fun.

something like this won tourneys in my area:


*************** 1 HQ ***************
Space Marine Librarian, Null Zone, The Avenger
- - - > 100 Punkte

*************** 3 Standard ***************
5 Space Marines, Upgrade to Sergeant
+ Razorback, twin-linked lascannon -> 75 Pkt.
- - - > 165 Punkte

5 Space Marines, Upgrade to Sergeant
+ Razorback, twin-linked heavy bolter -> 40 Pkt.
- - - > 130 Punkte

5 Space Marines, Upgrade to Sergeant
+ Razorback, twin-linked lascannon -> 75 Pkt.
- - - > 165 Punkte

*************** 3 Fast Attack ***************
3 Land Speeder, 3 x heavy bolter, 3 x heavy bolter
- - - > 180 Punkte

1 Land Speeder, 1 x multi-melta, 1 x multi-melta
- - - > 80 Punkte

1 Land Speeder, 1 x multi-melta, 1 x multi-melta
- - - > 80 Punkte

*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************
Land Raider
- - - > 250 Punkte

Land Raider Crusader, multi-melta
- - - > 260 Punkte

Predator, autocannon, 2 heavy bolters
- - - > 85 Punkte


Total points Space Marines : 1495



It's a lot of brutal mobile firepower and nearly immune to small arms fire or close combat.

The list will crumple in close combat... the most powerful phase of the game.

G

I like Lysander, but after 4th edition, it just seems wrong to put him in anything but standard terminators.

Him with Sternguard sounds fun!

No comments on the Attack Bike thought I had.

I was also thinking about a big ten man Assault Terminator Squad with mostly Storm Shields. Drop them in front of the enemy and dare them to charge you.