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Kind of hard to win a US GT when there has only been 1 since the new space marine codex has come out, even then the codex had only been out for less then a month.

Guess we won't know if IG can be tier 1 until 2010 as there arn't any GT's until then....

oh, and I've yet to lose to Orks in a GT setting with my Salamanders

What about the other side of the pond?

I have yet to lose to any sm army with my current ork build, so what does that mean.

What I have seen in NY/Chicago/Indianapolis against serious players is that anyone bring any SM build is going home early. Sure, a good general can win with a good SM build, but when you are facing great generals with superior armies, it is not a pretty sight.

Inigo: At what points values are you playing at?

Also, I've seen very few totally optimized lists for SM in 5th edition.

Have you played against a Salamanders list led by Vulkan with 8+ multimeltas?

Have you played against a Crimson fist army with 20+ sternguard all with combi weapons & 3 dakka preds?

I think for every 10 twin lash lists out there there are are only one or two fully functional tier 1 space marine armies. People just haven't caught up with the times.

Inigo Montoya wrote:

I have yet to lose to any sm army with my current ork build, so what does that mean.

which is funny cause I have yet to lose to orks with my current marine build, so what does that mean?

I think the Vulkan list posted is the most competitive, even above Stelek's "Best of" list. But the list have a great bad of goodies that it can still be tier one without those lists.

Maybe now would be a good time to start a unit by unit analysis. I am thinking of writing a "Dakka Space Marine" Tactica based of the observations of this thread.

I will post two units at a time and all you have to do is post your thoughts on that unit. I will do the Named Characters last as when you write something like this you want to build a context for those characters.

So first off the Chapter Master and his friend his Honor Guard.

Here are my thoughts:

Chapter Master - I don't think this is necessarily bad choice. Relatively speaking he is only 25 points more then the Company Commander and other HQ choices. He benefits from a long wargear list, an Iron Halo standard, Orbital Bombardment, and access to Honor Guard. With him it comes down to if Orbital Bombardment is worth 25 points to you. I have used it a few times and has had limited success with it. What really hurts him is the fact that you have to stand still to utilize it which greatly limits his use. If you field him it's best to just think of Orbital Bombardment as the cherry on top of the cake and just use him as you would use the Company Commander. Essentially the only real reason to field him is to have access to Honor Guard.

Honor Guard - On the surface, I don't think this is such a bad choice. For slightly less then a Terminator you get a Marine with 3 Powerweapon Attacks standing still, and a 2+ armor save. Terminators will outsine most times but they still have their uses. Take a Unit of them and a Chapter Master in a Drop Pod, and you can have a pretty potent threat to your opponent. Only downside is their lack of an Inv Save, which would almost require you to attack a Librarian just to protect them. So their high points cost and what it would take to adequately support them usually means they are left at home. So not a competitive choice, but you can use them without suffering too much.

^my point exactly.
It means nothing. As I said earlier, a good general can win with a mediocre army, but it is very hard to beat a great general with a great army.

Look at my list - it is a vulkan salamander list andit does well vs everything but uber builds.

Pedro / sternguard are also good builds, but again, it is just a notch below the real power builds.

Inigo Montoya wrote:^my point exactly.
It means nothing. As I said earlier, a good general can win with a mediocre army, but it is very hard to beat a great general with a great army.

Look at my list - it is a vulkan salamander list andit does well vs everything but uber builds.

Pedro / sternguard are also good builds, but again, it is just a notch below the real power builds.

You have mentioned 'real power builds' multiple times in this thread, could you please tell us what builds you are talking about?

I ran down a couple of current popular and powerful builds and how I think the space marines do against them earlier this thread.

What lists are you thinking of?

The idea of the Sternguard, but if I was going to take them, I'd use Pedro Kantor, as he'd make them scoring units. Just personal opinion, of course. Plus, why would anyone ever change the weapons on Sternguard. Those bolters are AMAZING!!!

MC

Mahu wrote:I think the Vulkan list posted is the most competitive, even above Stelek's "Best of" list. But the list have a great bad of goodies that it can still be tier one without those lists.

Maybe now would be a good time to start a unit by unit analysis. I am thinking of writing a "Dakka Space Marine" Tactica based of the observations of this thread.

I will post two units at a time and all you have to do is post your thoughts on that unit. I will do the Named Characters last as when you write something like this you want to build a context for those characters.

So first off the Chapter Master and his friend his Honor Guard.


Chapter Master - I don't think this is necessarily bad choice. Relatively speaking he is only 25 points more then the Company Commander and other HQ choices. He benefits from a long wargear list, an Iron Halo standard, Orbital Bombardment, and access to Honor Guard. With him it comes down to if Orbital Bombardment is worth 25 points to you. I have used it a few times and has had limited success with it. What really hurts him is the fact that you have to stand still to utilize it which greatly limits his use. If you field him it's best to just think of Orbital Bombardment as the cherry on top of the cake and just use him as you would use the Company Commander. Essentially the only real reason to field him is to have access to Honor Guard.

Honor Guard - On the surface, I don't think this is such a bad choice. For slightly less then a Terminator you get a Marine with 3 Powerweapon Attacks standing still, and a 2+ armor save. Terminators will outsine most times but they still have their uses. Take a Unit of them and a Chapter Master in a Drop Pod, and you can have a pretty potent threat to your opponent. Only downside is their lack of an Inv Save, which would almost require you to attack a Librarian just to protect them. So their high points cost and what it would take to adequately support them usually means they are left at home. So not a competitive choice, but you can use them without suffering too much.

I'll chime in on this as I think I might be one of the only players out there to field every unit entry in the 5th edition SM codex in a game.

Chapter Master : The chapter master is nearly identical to a Space Marine Captain. Same stats & wargear options. What do you get for your 25 extra points? The ability to unleash an orbital bombardment & take a squad of honor guard. It should be noted that you do NOT have the ability to take a command squad, like a captain would. The orbital bombardment ability can be very hit or miss, there are a couple things to keep in mind:

1: It is a shooting attack & the Chapter master has to not move to be able to use it. What this means is that the bombardment cannot be fired out of a razorback or land raider, only out of a rhino or if the chapter master is out in the open.

2. It scatters 2d6 if you miss (66% of the time it will scatter)

3. An Orbital Barrage is a str 10 AP1 ordinance barrage. What does this mean?
A couple of things:
A) Models hit get most likely will not get cover.
B) You are rolling 2d6 for armor pen & taking the highest, as well as upping the damage chart roll by 1 due to AP1
C) Because it is barrage you don't need to have line of site to fire it.

A common tactic from I've seen is to have the chapter master attached to a squad in the open (Usually an Assault terminator squad behind a land raider or a regular terminator squad with a cyclone missile launcher in cover near a land raider) and fire the Orbital bombardment on the first turn & then move into the land raider the second turn (remember all models only need to move within 2 inches of the doors to embark). In a previous RTT I lost my Land raider & a Rhino on the first turn due to this.

IMO the ability to choose to take a unit of honor guard or a command squad would be better, as I feel that honor guard are not a very competitive option.

Honor Guard:

While the honor guard do have the Chapter Champion & the ability to get a chapter banner, they are not very cost effective. For 5 points more per model you can get terminators who have an Inv save, and instead are equipped with either power fists, thunder hammers, or lightning claws, all better then the bolt pistol/ power weapon/bolter combo for honor guard.

For 25 points you can get a chapter banner, which does improve the attack output. You could also run them with a Libby to get them an inv save, however he would then either have to be upgraded to an Epistolary or miss out on using some of the better SM psychic powers, and always have to be attacked to the honor guard. When you put it all together that is at least 100 points & an HQ slot to make the honor guard as survivable as regular terminators.

While fluffy, honor guard do not belong in a competitive list, unless you know that the other player doesn't have many power weapons or AP2 weapons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

extermikator wrote:The idea of the Sternguard, but if I was going to take them, I'd use Pedro Kantor, as he'd make them scoring units. Just personal opinion, of course. Plus, why would anyone ever change the weapons on Sternguard. Those bolters are AMAZING!!!

MC

I've seen a two lascannon sternguard combat squad hang back in fortified ruins (thanks to thunderfires) while the other 5 drive up. Of course this was in a crimson fist army so they were scoring.

Another things I've seen other Salamander players do is give sternguard melta guns or heavy flamers & drop pod them in, that way they can do initial dammage on the drop & still have anti tank / TEQ ready to go.

Mahu wrote:I will post two units at a time and all you have to do is post your thoughts on that unit. I will do the Named Characters last as when you write something like this you want to build a context for those characters. So first off the Chapter Master and his friend his Honor Guard.

I will bite, athough those may not be the best units to start a comparison with.
For me the main difference between a Captain and a Master is the fringe benifits not the Orbital Bombardment. Masters have Honour Guard and Captains have Command Squds and possible Bikes at Troops. Scoring Bikes and a FNP elite squad are more important to me than Guard. Unless my Master is in a Rhino first turn I never seem to have the opportunity to use OB so it has become wasted points for me in several games.

Honour Guard are a decent assault unit and while they have some fun upgrades they only perform about the same as Claw Terminators. So they are trading an Invunerable save for a ranged attack & slightly better transport options. I might play them with Kantor in a droppod if I was expecting to play an opponent with few Power Weapons. I just do not see them adding anything to the army that Terminators do not?

Wow, some great responses so far. I think everybody is clear on Chapter Masters and Honor Guard. So let's move on.

How about Company Commanders and Command Squads. I have yet to see the Bike Coomand Squad of doom! yet. SO what are your experiences with them.

Mahu wrote:Wow, some great responses so far. I think everybody is clear on Chapter Masters and Honor Guard. So let's move on.

How about Company Commanders and Command Squads. I have yet to see the Bike Coomand Squad of doom! yet. SO what are your experiences with them.

If you're going to turn this into a "tactica", you might want to start a new thread, and then sticky or article it once all the responses come in.

No need to start a new thread, there is still great information in this one that shouldn't be lost.

Space Marine Captain – A well rounded choice for those who want a HQ choice to be a direct threat, the Space Marine Captain not only has the war gear options off a Chapter Master but also two unique abilities: to take a command Squad and to select a space marine bike squad of at least 5 models as a troop choice.
When it comes to selecting war gear the better option tends to be with a close combat orientation. Hellfire rounds, an aux grenade launcher and combi weapons will benefit from the captain’s BS skill of 5, however things the ability to equip a captain with artificer armor at only 15 points means that you have a WS6, 3 wound I5, 3 attack close combat machine with a 2+/4++ save. I feel that the 15 points for a storm shield may be worth the bonus to a 3++ save, however it depends on what types of foes he will face. I’d select the relic blade or a pair of lightning claws to take full advantage of the I5, while a power fist & Thunder hammer are good, I do consider them a waste due to the loss of high initiative. The relic blade limits the number of attacks to 3 (4 on the charge), while the lightning claws can bring up to 5 attacks on the charge with the reroll to wound. For 40 points the terminator armor is a rip off, you would be crazy to buy it when artificer armor is 25 points cheaper for the same benefit (unless you are DYING to have a chainfist that only benefits from the WS6 vs. walkers).
The Command squad has its own entry; however they tend to do the best when on bikes. In general I’d recommend only taking a command squad if you put them on bikes, and then I would always take a bike for the commander.
The commander’s ability to make bikes troop choices makes taking him on a bike mandatory in a bike heavy army.
The biggest issue I have with the commander is that you can usually get as much, if not more, value from your points if you take one of the space marine special characters. There is now no way to buy eternal warrior or mastercraft your weapons for captains. Take Lysander as an example: in order to get the 2+/3++ save you’d have to spend 30 points for artificer armor & a storm shield, he also has a thunderhammer, a regular costs 30 points. So what does Lysander get for the remaining 40 points? Mastercrafting on the thunderhammer, the ability to reroll all misses on bolters from a squad he is attached to, the ability to give ruins in your deployment zone a +1 cover save, 1 more wound AND eternal warrior (meaning I need to cause 4 wounds on a 2+/3++ character to kill him no matter what). All that comes out to about 8 points per additional upgrade, and I don’t even consider Lysander one of the best special charter’s in the codex!
Unless you are running a bike army & don’t like Khan, or REALLY want to keep combat tactics & not like Capt. Sicarius I’d stick with a special character.

Space Marine Command Squad – The ability to take a command squad is mixed. For only 10 more points I can have a 5 man sternguard squad who have access to better bolters, cheaper combi weapons, and can have more than 5 men in the squad.
The Space Marine Command Squad has two things going for it: Every model can have special equipment from bikes to meltaguns, and the squad has an apothecary in it.
Every model having access means that you can have up to 5 melta guns, plasma guns, or flamers in the squad for shooting, or include a number of power swords & power fists for a brutal close combat group to go along with your Captain. The problem is the price of these upgrades. To provide 5 power swords is another 75 points, 5 melta guns is 50 points. The Company Champion isn’t a bad deal at 15 points, but the company standard tends to be most effective in infantry & all bike armies, as a mech army is not taking as many leadership tests.
In order to get full use out of this squad you will need to buy them bikes, that’s another 90 points. In order to have a fully functional close combat squad that is 300 points, when you factor in the 180 points for the captain on the bike, you are looking at close to 500 points for the unit. Of course the unit is T5 with a 3+ save and feel no pain, BUT, it is still a lot of points for only 6 models. If I’m going to be spending 500 points for 6 models I’d rather get a landraider crusader or redeemer full of assault terminators.
I personally don’t think command squads are worth it.

For what its worth I've heard that the apothecary isn't a veteran and cannot take any upgrades that are available to the veterans in the company command squad.

asugradinwa wrote:The commander’s ability to make bikes troop choices makes taking him on a bike mandatory in a bike heavy army. The biggest issue I have with the commander is that you can usually get as much, if not more, value from your points if you take one of the space marine special characters.

This I think is the problem with both the Chapter Master & Captain. Other than a Bike or maybe a Jump Pack there is no value in taking a DIY Leader over one of the named characters. While you get to choice your own equipment you loose out on the best options (like FNP Armour or Master Crafted Blades) and most of these Heroes are paying a pittance for great specials that replace the rather weak Combat Tactics.

asugradinwa wrote:Space Marine Command Squad – The ability to take a command squad is mixed. For only 10 more points I can have a 5 man sternguard squad who have access to better bolters, cheaper combi weapons, and can have more than 5 men in the squad.

They do have FNP and can have four Melta/Plasma Guns and also do not take up a FOC Slot so do have some advantages. The Bike Squad of Doom really needs to go with Khan for the Furious Charge bonus. The only thing Bikes really offer over Terminators is mobility (12" move) and having a gun. I think they are more of a fun than competative choice.

With reference to the Vulkan list, would anyone consider taking an assault squad w/2xFlamers and a thunderhammer sarge?

You can remove the jetpacks and get a free rhino. Put them in a LR variant with vulkan instead of termies or a tac squad.

Effectivly the unit only costs 205 points since your saving on a transport. Allthough the tac squad who wants to ride in the ''free'' rhino cannont start the game inside it, would it be worth it?

Rip'nRun wrote:With reference to the Vulkan list, would anyone consider taking an assault squad w/2xFlamers and a thunderhammer sarge?

You can remove the jetpacks and get a free rhino. Put them in a LR variant with vulkan instead of termies or a tac squad.

Effectivly the unit only costs 205 points since your saving on a transport. Allthough the tac squad who wants to ride in the ''free'' rhino cannont start the game inside it, would it be worth it?

\

I think it can be an effective unit out of a LR and will be great against non power armor armies. But it wont have the hitting or staying power of the terminators or be scoring like the tac squad. A scoring redeemer is pretty nasty sometimes. Also the tac squad with melta/combi-melta has the ability to toast a transport and then assault the occupants which adds to their survivability.

Rip'nRun wrote:You can remove the jetpacks and get a free rhino. Put them in a LR variant with vulkan instead of termies or a tac squad.
Effectivly the unit only costs 205 points since your saving on a transport. Allthough the tac squad who wants to ride in the ''free'' rhino cannont start the game inside it, would it be worth it?

The issue with ASM is that they do not score. If you want something with more of a close combat punch than a Tactical Squad to go in the LR it is either Grey Knights (because the score) or Terminators (as they are rock hard).

The thing I've found with my Vulkan lists is that I tend to run out of fast attack choices, so I usually don't have room for an assault squad.

Attack bikes with multimeltas, land speeders with multimeltas/ Heavy flamers, and land speeder storms to get a first turn twin linked multimelta or heavy flamer shot off are all much less expensive then the assault squad and tend to cause more damage.

You can't fire the orbital barrage on the first turn from a Chapter Master. The rules don't allow it as he has to have not moved during his previous turn.

Hollismason wrote:You can't fire the orbital barrage on the first turn from a Chapter Master. The rules don't allow it as he has to have not moved during his previous turn.

I dont have my codex on me but isnt it the previous movement phase? Which would be the phase before the shooting phase.

"providing the chapter master did not move in the preceding movement phase"

You are correct Khornatedemon

To add to this discussion we have been having a similar discussion on B&C about competitive marines. The general consensus of what are the effective SM units -

HQ: Kantor, Vulkan, Biker Captain
Elite: Dreadnoughts, Ironclads, Hammernators
Troops: Bikes
Fast: Speeders, MM Trikes
Heavy: Land Raiders

Lyracian wrote:To add to this discussion we have been having a similar discussion on B&C about competitive marines. The general consensus of what are the effective SM units -

HQ: Kantor, Vulkan, Biker Captain
Elite: Dreadnoughts, Ironclads, Hammernators
Troops: Bikes
Fast: Speeders, MM Trikes
Heavy: Land Raiders

Shrike and Kahn are both totally worth it, Shrike in combination with Hammernators or Even Tactical Squads, when you need to clean up that fleeing unit.
Kahn, because of all the bike bonuses he gets, and all that outflanking goodness. If you run Bike-Heavy, he is a must-have.

Sternguard are good Elites. Especially with Kantor.

Tactical Marines, especially split up and in a Razorback, Are also a good addition. There's a reason we call units with 4's across the board MEQs Rather than NEQs or CSMEQs.
I also like scouts, but that's personal preference.

You are way off on the Heavy.
Thunderfire Cannons, Predators, and Vindicators are ALL worth it.

Now my view is that Sternguard are only good with Kantor, otherwise they are just average.
MEQ may be Elite Troops but they are generalists not specialists.

Canonness Rory wrote:You are way off on the Heavy.Thunderfire Cannons, Predators, and Vindicators are ALL worth it.

The Vulkan list near the start of this thread is using Predators, however a compeative list needs the best of the best and I am not convinced that about 100 points for a mostly static gun platform is the way to go. Why do you find these units worthwhile?

My Dakka Predator managed a total of two MEQ Kills in my game this week which hardly gets it back its 85 points...

Tactical squads aren't that great, they never were but now you have to field ten and that means they are expensive for a basic troop choice. They were much better when you could field a six man squad with las/plas. The MM is okay but lacks range and a shrewd opponent can exploit that to their advantage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do have a strong list I have been testing but have not taken it to any tournies as yet. It's too early to say if it can consistently beat the top tier. I am just about finished buidling my daemons and this could well be my next list.

G

Why doesn't anybody like a MOTF with a CB. They're not only brilliant even at short range, but at long range, you get a str 10 AP1 weapon!! What's not to love, and all for 125pts?!?!?!

MC

They are too easy to kill by a variety of means. People are not willing to put enough points into them to make them worth taking.

G

Because if you are taking a MOF that means you are sinking over 100 points into an infantry model with t4 & two wounds that does nearly nothing in close combat.In general when designing a list at 1750 & below one HQ should do it & to be most effective you need to take a special character. If you are going to take a second HQ choice it should prob be a support character like a libby or a chap.

The biggest issue with the conversion beamer is just about anything it fires & does get 42+ inches on it will get a cover save. Wow