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I've had a MOTF survive 4 seeker missiles, he's got a 2+ armour save. I still think he's good, and he can bolster your back line, as if I ever make a proper model of him (I'm using an old tech at the moment), I'll use him with loads of Devestators.

MC

If MOTF made Dreadnaught scoring I would take him every game. At the moment all he does is let me have Terminators/Sternguard & 3 Dreads in an army.

Unless you put him on a Bike he can not move and fire the C-Beamer and most of the time is is only Str 8 AP 4 Blast which is just not that impressive for the cost. Without an Iron Halo he is just too vunerable.

I took a MotF with a Cb till he kept getting pasted in CC. I then dropped his ass quick

The whole point of the MOTF is that he sits at the back of the board, normally in a corner, and snipes at light tanks if they're closer than 42", and large tanks from 42"+. That's the whole point, and he works really well in conjunction with Devestators.

MC

I also feel taking a MotF is jsut not worth it unless you are running a 6 dreadnought list. He is just not the best option for most armies. Now again if you are running a 6 drop podding dreadnought list he makes for a good support guy, never mind the fact he lets you take 6 dreads.

I like the MOTF because he fits in with my army's background, and he's also not bad in a fight.

MC

@ MC yes he is fine for a FLUFFY list. This is a thread for COMPETATIVE lists. He is not useless but there are much better choices.

I am really suprised that no one has mentioned Cassius for an HQ choice.

Now back onto the topic.

I find that serious/competitive sm lists almost require the taking of a named/special character.

With that in mind, I find that Shrike, Vulkan and Cassius as my 3 favorite with Lysander coming in 4th.

I used to run Cassius and attack bike/heavy bolter spam with great effectiveness. With folks meching up after the new IG codex, it just lacked the anti-tank teeth required in today's metagame environment.

I've since switched to Vulkan landspeeder/mm spam. I've yet to playtest it as I've just gotten done with assembling my landspeeders and obtained my heavy flamers for 'em. On a side note, defiler heavy flamers look very cool hanging off the nose of a landspeeder.

I am curious on the thoughts expressed by folks in here about not including a strong cc unit such as assault terminators.

It's a huge point sink, but in an all-comers list it deals with a plethora of threats quite well.

Is it possible to have some thoughts on this? I am trying to flesh out my Vulkan list and after viewing this thread I am concerned about commiting a quarter of my points in an asault squad.

One ideas I've been thinking about for SM is a LRC with Assault Terminators and a Chaplian.

MC

imweasel wrote:I am really suprised that no one has mentioned Cassius for an HQ choice.

Now back onto the topic.

I find that serious/competitive sm lists almost require the taking of a named/special character.

With that in mind, I find that Shrike, Vulkan and Cassius as my 3 favorite with Lysander coming in 4th.

I used to run Cassius and attack bike/heavy bolter spam with great effectiveness. With folks meching up after the new IG codex, it just lacked the anti-tank teeth required in today's metagame environment.

I've since switched to Vulkan landspeeder/mm spam. I've yet to playtest it as I've just gotten done with assembling my landspeeders and obtained my heavy flamers for 'em. On a side note, defiler heavy flamers look very cool hanging off the nose of a landspeeder.

I am curious on the thoughts expressed by folks in here about not including a strong cc unit such as assault terminators.

It's a huge point sink, but in an all-comers list it deals with a plethora of threats quite well.

Is it possible to have some thoughts on this? I am trying to flesh out my Vulkan list and after viewing this thread I am concerned about commiting a quarter of my points in an asault squad.

I just recently added a terminator squad so I've played the list for a while without them. You can do just fine without a big assault unit but against some armies they just destroy them.


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extermikator wrote:The whole point of the MOTF is that he sits at the back of the board, normally in a corner, and snipes at light tanks if they're closer than 42", and large tanks from 42"+. That's the whole point, and he works really well in conjunction with Devestators.

MC

I believe the general consensus is that devestators arent worth the points when you have vehicles that do their job's better. Most people I've seen run the MotF on foot use him in a sniper scout squad, sometimes with telion. Makes a nice little anti-infantry unit with the 2 blast templates. And the MotF is terrible in CC. He fights no better than a marine sgt.

Suppose, but the big laser he carries is incredibly fun, and destroying tanks with it is so much fun. I suppose you can use Assault Squads with melta bombs are better at that job though.

MC

extermikator wrote:Suppose, but the big laser he carries is incredibly fun, and destroying tanks with it is so much fun. I suppose you can use Assault Squads with melta bombs are better at that job though.

MC

or anything with a meltagun or multimelta

Suppose, but now you're just ruining my points. Ok, so a techmarine is better, but seeing your opponents face when you say what you've got is always funny!

MC

extermikator wrote:Suppose, but now you're just ruining my points. Ok, so a techmarine is better, but seeing your opponents face when you say what you've got is always funny!

MC

I'm not trying to ruin your points. This thread is about competative space marines so when someone brings something up we need to discuss if its competative or not. And sorry to say most of your ideas arent

Don't worry, I need to be told when something's rubbish. Is there any reason to have a MOTF in my army then, except for the Dreadnought option? And if there is a way, please tell me!!!!!

MC

It has been a long time since I've run a list without Assault terminators loaded into a land raider redeemer (though a crusader could do alright as well).

Yes it is 465 points (actually 655 with Vulkan), however there is very little that can stand up to 5 TH/SS assault terminators with master crafted weapons.They tend to have the most trouble with hordes with high numbers of attacks, thats what vulkan when a heavy flamer & flamestrorm cannons on the redeemer come in handy. with an effective charge range on 15 inches ( 2 from the enterance, 1 from the base, and 12 from the move & assault) I only need 1 or 2 turns of moving the redeemer to get the terminators where they need to go.

The redeemer has extra armor so it'll stay moving unless it is immobilized or destroyed, both are pretty hard to do unless attacked by a melta weapon. This is why I fear drop pods with melta, firedragons in a fast waves serpent, or Melta IG squads in valks/vendettas scouting up.

I think the increase in AV12 Transports will require a rise in Tactical Lascannons - since they are too costly almost everywhere else in the list.

The problem with tac lascannons is it tends to prevent the tac squad from doing the two things it should be doing:
Finishing off a unit & moving into position to hold objectives.

I've found that a better lascannon platform is a predator with lascannon spononson, You have better AV at 13, and 2 lascannon shots plus two autocannon shots at only 120 pouints, compared to a tac squad with Rhino & lascannon at 215.

asugradinwa wrote:The problem with tac lascannons is it tends to prevent the tac squad from doing the two things it should be doing:
Finishing off a unit & moving into position to hold objectives.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Are you saying that sm's should take no heavy weapons in a tac squad?

asugradinwa wrote:I've found that a better lascannon platform is a predator with lascannon spononson, You have better AV at 13, and 2 lascannon shots plus two autocannon shots at only 120 pouints, compared to a tac squad with Rhino & lascannon at 215.

I like keeping my pred's as cheap as possible. However, I think the lascannon sponsons are not a bad option for a static long range anti-tank.

I've found that I like the lascannon as the anti-tank choice of heavy weapon for tacticals. It's flexible. I don't have to rush off my tac squad in it's rhino to take over the center of the board to get the max effectiveness out of my heavy weapon choice. For table quarters/spearhead the extra range can be a huge plus. In tourneys you might have little or no control on the placing of objectives, so that's kind of mute. For pickup games I can try to keep the objectives close to where I hope to deploy.

The mm is the preferred anti-tank weapon for 5th ed. I just prefer to keep my mm's on platforms that can move and shoot and preferrably move 12" and shoot in one form or another.

Elessar wrote:I think the increase in AV12 Transports will require a rise in Tactical Lascannons - since they are too costly almost everywhere else in the list.

I like Multimeltas more against the whole spread of armor. They're cheaper and sure they lose a point of strength and some range to the Lascannon, but they're AP1 and inside 1/2 range they literally kill a vehicle of any armor value with 50% of their damaging hits (and average a penetrating hit against any AV when firing at half range as well).

One of the problems I have with MMs is against Eldar vehicles, as they can neutralise the 2D6 dice role.

MC

For me Tac squads are all about moving them to where they can provide support to the rest of the army & contest/control objectives. Too often I will play against a SM player who does indeed have a lascannon tac squad in a rhino that never moves and can't get to objectives because he is blasting away at my landraider with a weapon that NEEDS to roll a 5 or 6.

The lascannon preds are my long range anti armor. The thunderfire, land speeders, and land raider redeemer are my anti infantry. If you want your predators to be anti infantry then keeping them cheap is a good idea, I just like the idea of 4 shots per turn that can pop transports (Melta handles the real armor).

When facing eldar a multimelta is totally the way to go. The best Armor rating they have is 12, so just ignore the idea of getting within 12 inches and blast everything from 24 inches. So you won't have an auto pen hit within 12 inches, but you still have a 50% chance of a glancing hit or better. The AP1 still helps.

extermikator wrote:One of the problems I have with MMs is against Eldar vehicles, as they can neutralise the 2D6 dice role.

MC

but they also make str9 only str 8 so lascannons are just as good as missile launchers against wave serpents. When only str 8 weapons count i'll take the ap1 one i can twin link with my character.

Khornatedemon wrote:

extermikator wrote:One of the problems I have with MMs is against Eldar vehicles, as they can neutralise the 2D6 dice role.

MC

but they also make str9 only str 8 so lascannons are just as good as missile launchers against wave serpents. When only str 8 weapons count i'll take the ap1 one i can twin link with my character.

QFT

A player in my area brought up a good point about the Razorback. More often then not you will need to leave some sort of troop presence at your home objective, a cheap bare bones tactical squad in a Razorback can provide long range fire, whilst keeping a scoring unit on your objective, it's cheaper then a 10-man squad with a heavy weapon in a Rhino.

This weekend, I am going to start experimenting with the Land Speeder Storm. I plan to get the model anyways when it hits the shelf, and an Outflanking troop choice did me well the last tournament.

I was thinking:

5-man Scout Squad w/ Power Weapon, Combimelta, and Shotguns (maybe a Teleport Homer)
Land Speeder Storm w/ MM

and backing that up with Deep Striking MM/HF Land Speeders.

Also, in reference to the MotF with Conversion Beamer, I am still doubting his usefulness. Compared to a Librarian with Vortex that can deepstrike, I find him lacking.

I've been running a foward scout unit lately with good results. I run a 5 man squad with a powerfist, combi melta, & the other 4 having pistols & close combat weapons. While this does cut the number of shots vs shotguns, it gives the scouts 2 hand to hand attacks. Sometimes I run them with the land speeder storm, sometimes by themselves. With both infiltrate & scout moves they can be within 12 inches of the enemy before the game starts, though it might be better to hold them back if you are going second.

Remember that the Land speeder storm is only BS3, in general, unless you have Vulkan, paying 15 points for a multimelta that only hits 50% of the time might not be worth it.

That being said, using the scout turboost before the game in order to get a first turn multimelta shot under 12 inches can be great fun. Others like the heavy flamer (esp with Vulkan). Either way scouts with a storm can be an effective & fun first strike unit.

Nice idea, I hadn't thought of taking the Scout Serg with a PF. Is that even allowed?

MC

Yes, first turn charge with a sgt with a pfist had a ton of fun against a squad of russes a couple weeks ago. Autohit with 3 pens got me a destroyed, immobilized (destroyed) & a shaken. My 110 point squad killed 300 points on the first turn thanks to bad deployment & tactics.

I was also thinking about a big ten man Assault Terminator Squad with mostly Storm Shields. Drop them in front of the enemy and dare them to charge you.

or you could load them in a land raider or LR Crusader and move next to the enemy and let them out... with predators covering them to make sure they arnt flanked and objectives arnt taken by the enemy with the LRs or LR Crusaders providing close support for the terminators and just blow em up.

asugradinwa wrote: With both infiltrate & scout moves they can be within 12 inches of the enemy before the game starts,

No they can't, they can be 12.1" away, but not closer...