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How can you factor the cost of the character that you need to take into account with the squad? Even taking the terminator + SS librarian instead of vulkan leaves you the points for a single terminator in difference. Yes my tactical squad costs as much as a terminator squad, but hey, they are a scoring unit that will beat on any non dedicated CC units. One of the variations I will be testing out is dropping the dread for a terminator squad giving me 3 rhinos and the LRR.

And yes I do realise it was luck, but its also luck that will have a alscannon taking it out first turn. Its not something to reliably count on happening, statistically as it were.

Yes I take EA and no I have not had my LR damaged like so on the first turn. I am aware it can happen but simply saying x can destroy y first turn is not a valid reason not to take something. An executioner can wipe out your 10 man terminator squad in 1 turn of shooting, does that mean you shouldnt use them? No it doesnt because you dont alway face them and they cant always do it. 1 of the 3 armies I faced had lascannons. By your regard why bring rhinos as a lascannon can easily take them out first turn? Merely making conjecture about something that has happened in one game isnt valid as far as I'm concerned. I do value your insight but merely saying dont take land raiders cause i saw one get blown up first turn in one game of a tournament doesnt work for me.

Nobody really plays lash here anymore as I'd say a good 80% or so of the armies are now mech either fully or mostly. Those oblits die to lascannons first turn too hehe

I factored in the character as he's not going to do much in the game himself if he loses his ride. However, in the case of Vulkan, he has already most of his share by boosting your weapons so the loss isn't nearly as bad as if a pure combat character would lose his transport. That doesn't change the fact that the unlikely event of losing the LRR on the first turn cripples the character as well as the squad. I'm well aware that Tactical Squads pay premium for their scoring ability, and that leads to some difficult but interesting choices in list building.

As you'd have the squad and the character in the list anyway, it seems to me that you're not overly reliant on the success of the LR as some lists are. I'd like to hear how you do with the Terminators though, if you favor an aggressive playstyle they might suit you better. I should give mine and their LRC another chance as well sometime soon. As they can get the LR as a dedicated option, this would free a HS slot for something else as well.

By every means, Lash should be heading towards extinction, but its low model count makes it appealing for beginners. It remains to be seen how popular the Vendettas are going to be, as that's another source of massed lascannons that might ruin the LR's day once in a while.

I don't think anyone can deny that the landraider is very resilient these days. I think just one is the perfect choice as you can screen it with rhinos to keep the meltas out of 1/2 range. Being able to assault from the landraider the turn it moved Is a huge advantage. Personally I only field the crusader but I understand why other variants are also just as viable. To me the crusader has the most bang for the buck and is the ultimate assault vehicle.

Sure they can be destroyed the first turn but I think immobilizing them is something I would be more concerned about since it's more likely to happen and can take it out of the game.

I once posted a Lysander/assault terminator list that had two crusaders. It's a great list and I just might build it after I complete my daemonic horde army. A lot of people said the crusaders were a huge liability but in reality they were the key factor for the vast majority of the wins. I have always been a big fan of the behemoth and in fifth edition they are even stronger.

G

Just took forth in a local RTT of 20 people with this list:

Sicarius

Epistolary Librarian w/ Vortex, Null Zone, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

5 Man Standard Terminator Squad w/ Heavy Flamer and Chainfist

2x Dreadnoughts w/ MM, EA, HF

10-Man Tactical Squad w/ FL, ML, PW in Rhino

10-Man Tactical Squad w/ MG, ML, PF in Rhino

Squadron of 2 MM Attack Bikes

Land Raider Crusader w/ EA, MM

Vindicator w/ SS, SB

Total = 1850

The basic strategy of the list was to outflank with the Meltagun Squad and let the Librarian and Terminators support them. More often then not I am finding that in objective based missions, most of my opponents put the majority of their army forward and fail to see or have an opportunity to reach to a tactical squad and a terminator squad in their backfield.

But luck probably played more into my success this tournament, as I fully expected to place rather low.

My first round opponent was a Chaos player that has only been playing a few weeks, I gave him some advice after our game and he did much better in the following rounds, he acknowlegded that he was probably more afraid of my army then he should have been.

Second round was against a Dark Eldar player who played a Raider Heavy Wych army, in a Kill Point mission. It was Dawn of War and I let him go first, he moved everything on in the first turn, and I keep everything in transports and moved on from one side, forcing him to come to me. He played concervatively and tried to pop my tanks with his 7 dark lances from range, but my Missile launchers where able to down on average two raiders a turn. End result 5 kill point to 2.

Third round was against a Pedro list that was oddly all ground pounding filled with Sternguard, Vanguard, and Tactical Squads on foot. The mission was both Capture and Control and Kill Points. I played aggressive, outflanked my Rhino squad and captured his objective. It was a brutal game and in the end he only had 5 marines left on the table and I controlled one more objective then him, but how the mission was written, if you tied on Kill Points, you tied the mission and that is what happened.

I may optimize the list a little better, maybe fit another Attack Bike in. I am going to keep it the same for the next RTT in two months when I will face off against the more competitive players in our area. Most didn't attend this tournament for various reasons. It's not optimized by any means. But I am thinking of dropping Sicarius in favor of Scouts in a Land Speader Storm.

It seems the tournaments in my area are just too kill point dependent which makes Drop Pods less likely to be effective.

I will say I am of the opinion now that the Epistolary upgrade is really worth it. The two powers combined is just so good.

Mahu wrote:Just took forth in a local RTT of 20 people with this list:

Sicarius

Epistolary Librarian w/ Vortex, Null Zone, Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

5 Man Standard Terminator Squad w/ Heavy Flamer and Chainfist

2x Dreadnoughts w/ MM, EA, HF

10-Man Tactical Squad w/ FL, ML, PW in Rhino

10-Man Tactical Squad w/ MG, ML, PF in Rhino

Squadron of 2 MM Attack Bikes

Land Raider Crusader w/ EA, MM

Vindicator w/ SS, SB

Total = 1850

The basic strategy of the list was to outflank with the Meltagun Squad and let the Librarian and Terminators support them. More often then not I am finding that in objective based missions, most of my opponents put the majority of their army forward and fail to see or have an opportunity to reach to a tactical squad and a terminator squad in their backfield.

But luck probably played more into my success this tournament, as I fully expected to place rather low.

My first round opponent was a Chaos player that has only been playing a few weeks, I gave him some advice after our game and he did much better in the following rounds, he acknowlegded that he was probably more afraid of my army then he should have been.

Second round was against a Dark Eldar player who played a Raider Heavy Wych army, in a Kill Point mission. It was Dawn of War and I let him go first, he moved everything on in the first turn, and I keep everything in transports and moved on from one side, forcing him to come to me. He played concervatively and tried to pop my tanks with his 7 dark lances from range, but my Missile launchers where able to down on average two raiders a turn. End result 5 kill point to 2.

Third round was against a Pedro list that was oddly all ground pounding filled with Sternguard, Vanguard, and Tactical Squads on foot. The mission was both Capture and Control and Kill Points. I played aggressive, outflanked my Rhino squad and captured his objective. It was a brutal game and in the end he only had 5 marines left on the table and I controlled one more objective then him, but how the mission was written, if you tied on Kill Points, you tied the mission and that is what happened.

I may optimize the list a little better, maybe fit another Attack Bike in. I am going to keep it the same for the next RTT in two months when I will face off against the more competitive players in our area. Most didn't attend this tournament for various reasons. It's not optimized by any means. But I am thinking of dropping Sicarius in favor of Scouts in a Land Speader Storm.

It seems the tournaments in my area are just too kill point dependent which makes Drop Pods less likely to be effective.

I will say I am of the opinion now that the Epistolary upgrade is really worth it. The two powers combined is just so good.

glad to hear you did well man!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So now my topic of debate is yay or nay on the dreads. Have any of you guys used them and what are your feelings? Generally I like them and they can be a big annoyance to certain armies (oh you didnt buy rending for your crushers? then sit and fight mr dread all game) but lately I've had a bunch of games where they get toasted without doing much, if anything. I suppose them taking fire is taking it off my rhinos or LRR but possibly something is more effective for the points?

Also does anyone use AC/Las preds? lately as more and more people go mech I find I'm mainly shooting the AC at transports while the HB's go silent. Is it worth the extra 35 points to make it a very viable threat to armor and in return a big target itself? I'd probably lose the 2 MM's on my dreads but trade them for 4 lascannons. Hmm actually I could drop the dreads and add 2 speeders and the LC's to the preds.

I have been having great luck with Dreads, you just gotta play them smart.

They generally are going to do one of three things in a game:

1. Stay near a close objective and try to counter charge anything that trys to get close. Only MCs have a decent chance of killing a Dread in a round of combat. Just make sure you keep them in enough cover to prevent your enemy from killing them at range.
2. Move forward with your army. Mainly to get the MM up close enough to pop enemy transports (killing mobility is much more important then killing), they can also provide cover to the majority of your own tanks.
3. Drop them in a Pod to disrupt your opponent. An army that has to spend a few turns removing a Dreadnought from their deployment zone means a two turn they are not fully committing to capturing your objective.

To the Predator issue, I think they should be kept cheap. As others are pointing out, you want your Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, and/or Dreadnoughts to fire at the transports first to pop them, the Autocannon should be firing last, as a rule. Besides, Lascannons sponsons almost cost as much as another Predator. I would much rather have three Preds on the table then two.

Here is my opinion for the thread, I am becoming more and more convinced to leave the Drop Pods at home. It may just be my style, but I feel that because most of them show up on turn one, they don't let you react to your opponent. I am finding that I much prefer to let my opponent start first so I can recognize his plan before I commit my own self. Plus I am looking for ways to stay as Kill Point light as I can.

Mahu,

Your 5 man 'nilla terminator squad doesn't look like it's really helping you out all that much. With Sicarius also, you're outflanking 1 meltagun. Is that really worth it? I think you'd be better off having another unit to gate with the Libby, maybe a unit of sternguard, or even just another unit of tac marines. I would try to get a few more bodies out there, especially something to ride in that land raider. Maybe if you don't want more infantry, you'd have more luck with two predators in place of the Land Raider?

Khornate Demon,

I like dreads more because they look cooler and are easier to put together than land speeders.

Great job Mahu! What RTTs will you be playing at next and who won best overall this past weekend?

G

Your 5 man 'nilla terminator squad doesn't look like it's really helping you out all that much.

I was finding that is was helping a little better then a 5 man Assault Terminator Squad. Usually I am finding that I am usually dealing with only a small squad left on the opponents objectives as they usually want to rush forward and kill me (as my list looks less imposing then it usually is. And the shooting from the Terminators is usually enough to at least damage a squad. The Crux of it all is Vortex, which is just an everything killer. I usually drop them close to an objective and shoot at whatever would hurt the squad the most.

With Sicarius also, you're outflanking 1 meltagun. Is that really worth it?

It's less about the damage output and more about being in the right place at the right time. If your opponent has thrown everything and the kitchen sink at your objectives, suddenly having a ten man squad in a rhino sitting on an objective, or within range of an objective is a problem for your opponent, usually either forcing them to split their focus or concentrate one way or another. My first game of the RTT, they never even got out and just moved onto the objective and held it, my opponent deciding that capturing the other two objectives to be a wiser idea then dealing with them, a move I blocked. The last game they tank shocked onto the obkective and nearly held it. I was more aggressive in that game and my opponent literally had no choice to to concentrate on retaking his own objective. All the while my 5 men where sitting on my objective relatively unharmed.

I think you'd be better off having another unit to gate with the Libby, maybe a unit of sternguard, or even just another unit of tac marines. I would try to get a few more bodies out there, especially something to ride in that land raider. Maybe if you don't want more infantry, you'd have more luck with two predators in place of the Land Raider?

My original list had a third tactical squad in the Raider, but they where not painted in time. However, most games (save the second) I just combat squaded the non-outflanking squad and stuck 5 marines and Sicarius in the Land Raider. Suddenly Land Raider = Scoring, with Sicarius only coming out if he has too. Sicarius, the Libby, and the Terminators stayed in the Land Raider the second game, as my whole strategy was denying the Dark Eldar an opponent to charge.

My list was more about Capture then Damage output. It could just be me though, I tend to have decent luck with things that have a degree of risk to them. Outflanking tends to work more often then not, and I have never failed a PT with Vortex and suffered that damage. That is usually ofset with bad dice elsewhere, but it is important to know your strengths.

I like dreads more because they look cooler and are easier to put together than land speeders.

I heard the new ones wheren't that bad?

Great job Mahu! What RTTs will you be playing at next and who won best overall this past weekend?

Until I move to my own place again (stupid economy) I will be sticking to the by monthly Sci-Fi RTTs. I should be moving by around Late July, Early September, and should be able to make the rounds to Rhubarb and CoC every once in a while.

James won best overall. Again. He is now 3 - 0 on tournament wins at Sci-Fi, though I admit this was a unique one. we had 20 players, but only James and myself where regulars. Most where from Rhubarb or where new players. But it was a 20 people turn out, and there was only one rules dispute. I was very impressed.

I just want to add that I am making no argument that my list is anywhere near effective. I lucked out a lot and my two later round opponents where good players, but just had the wrong list for the mission and the matchup. The Dark Eldar player only lost because Raiders are just too easy to kill at range (I was surprised he didn't play aggressive as well, I was fully expecting to have all of my tank popped and wiped off the board by the 40+ Wyches he had). Of course a 28 KP army versus an 11 KP army is doomed. The Marine player was playing all foot and I had a Vindicator, Nuff Said.

I am thinking of dropping Sicarius for a Scout Squad and another Attack Bike Squad. Maybe drop the Vindicator for two Whirlwinds (as I am not finding troubel with popping transports).

I would keep Sicarius.

G

However, Sicaruis is a point sink.
In a tournament setting, I prefer a Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone...

whitedragon wrote:


Khornate Demon,

I like dreads more because they look cooler and are easier to put together than land speeders.

hehe from a modelling standpoint I'm not too worried as I already have the speeders and dreads all painted up already.

Khornatedemon wrote:So now my topic of debate is yay or nay on the dreads. Have any of you guys used them and what are your feelings? Generally I like them and they can be a big annoyance to certain armies (oh you didnt buy rending for your crushers? then sit and fight mr dread all game) but lately I've had a bunch of games where they get toasted without doing much, if anything. I suppose them taking fire is taking it off my rhinos or LRR but possibly something is more effective for the points?

Yes, I usally run two or three Dreads with Plasma and Assault Cannons. I like the extra range of Plasma for taking out infantry and transports. I am currently not using Vulkan so Speeders may work better.

I want to try out Ironclads, but I am not sure they work well without Drop Pods (which I do not own). They may do well with your style since your army is mostly short range anyway.

wuestenfux wrote:However, Sicaruis is a point sink.
In a tournament setting, I prefer a Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone...

I would have never quessed.



G

Funny how limited the sm 'dex is. I am reading this and the most effective build I use (built through trial and error and lots of playtesting and adjusting) is:
HQ
Vulkan

Elite
Dread HF, MM
Dread HF, MM
5 Assault Terminators w th/ss in LRR w MM

Troops
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/ cm, melta and mm, rhino

Fast Attack
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM

Heavy Support
Dakka predator
Dakka Predator

2000 on the button.

I never used a net list, template or any other aid, I built the logical vulkan list and fine tuned it with extensive playtesting. As an all comers list, I think it is as solid as it will ever be, and it is very solid.

I park the dreads close to the predators to protect them from the inevitable deep strike/outflank/rhino assault. Rush the termies and troops straight up the middle of the board and grab the majority of objectives, deep strike the speeders for death to anything they come close to, and pound away with the predators. Vulkan and the termies make short work of most anything that actually makes it to them... ...it is the best sm list I have played.

HQ
Vulkan

Elite
Dread HF, MM
Dread HF, MM
5 Assault Terminators w th/ss in LRR w MM

Troops
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/ cm, melta and mm, rhino

Fast Attack
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM

Heavy Support
Dakka predator
Dakka Predator

2000 on the button.

Looks good but its not tier 1.

There is no tier 1 sm list.
:(

I've won two RTT's with this build:

Vulkan

5 TH/SS assault terminators in a LRR with extra armor & a multi melta

5 man scout Squad with close combat weapons & bolt pistols, sgt with pfist & combi melta

10 man tac squad with flamer/Lascannon & sgt with power weapon in a rhino

10 man tac squad with Melta Gun/Multimelta & sgt with power fist & combi Melta in a rhino

2 attack bikes with multi meltas

2 attack bikes with multi meltas

1 Land speeder with multi Melta & heavy flamer

1 Thunderfire cannon

2 Predators with Autocannons & Lascannons



Scout squad infiltrates & scouts up to bring some melta/powerfist hurt 5 Lascannons to tie up light transports and things like oblitorators at range, followed up by up to 7 multi melta shots. Once every transport/tank is blown Vulkan & the assult terminators multicharge while the redeemer & thunderfire take care of the squishy troops.

Inigo Montoya wrote:There is no tier 1 sm list.
:(

this I dont agree with. What do you consider teir 1? If you say lash I'll laugh at you. Marines can beat nob bikers. Mech guard is tough but it can be done. Demons can be beaten as well, especially if they dont take rending on their crushers so they get tied up by dreads all game.

Show me a "tier 1" sm build and I will show you at least 3 powerbuilds that will demolish it.

I am not happy saying this, it is just the reality of the new 'dex. If you are building a list to deal with any power build, the others will destroy you. There simply are no SM power builds out there.

When was the last top 5 for sm at ANY major tournament? It sucks, but SM are a tier 2 army right now.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Show me a "tier 1" sm build and I will show you at least 3 powerbuilds that will demolish it.

I am not happy saying this, it is just the reality of the new 'dex. If you are building a list to deal with any power build, the others will destroy you. There simply are no SM power builds out there.

When was the last top 5 for sm at ANY major tournament? It sucks, but SM are a tier 2 army right now.

and you can say the same about any of those powerbuilds. There is nothing that will demolish everything, it all has a counter. Marines are more of a balanced army than a powerbuild. The closest you can get is a vulkan list that capitalizes on 2 of the best weapons in 5th. So I'll show you a well built vulkan list. Show me 3 lists that will just demolish it that people are bringing to tournaments.

That being said in the hands of a capable player marines can and have done well.

I'm going to have to back up khornatedemon here...

From my own experience, I think that SM builds very similar to his are top tier. Possibly not high top tier, but quite respectable.

My nastiest nasty IG list splits its games against mech marines, foot lash would be rolled over by any of the different mech marine armies out there, pending the marines deploy properly to counter obliterator DS. Mech CSM would split its games with mech SM, as its essentially a mirror match.

Foot orks probably like the matchup, but I'll need Khornatedemon or another mech SM player to tell me thats right, as I haven't actually seen that game happen.

mech sisters is probably a split, since again, its almost the same list.

Well built tau probably has a favorable matchup. But I think 'demolish' isn't accurate.

Forget nids and their water cannons, eldar will be hard pressed to 'last turn tank shock objective block' with so much mechanized.

I'd like to see these lists, or any batreps of demolished marines. I'm prepared to concede some bad matchups, but I won't take anybodies word against a list that I've played with and against... and have plenty of respect for.

Space Marines did win the SoCal Slaughter in Space as Best Overall & Best General if my memory serves back in Feb.

Nob Bikers are no longer Tier 1 thanks to the counters & IG.

I think most people will say that at 1750-1850 points Chaos space Marines & orks tend to dominate most tournaments. Space marines can build a solid tier 1 list using Vulkan or Pedro.

I think IG will become a tier 1 army once the rules issues with Vendettas/Valkieries are solved.

Foot orks dont like playing armies with 7+ heavy flamers.

Mech orks dont like playing an army with those flamers backed up by MM's. Last game I had against speed freeks I popped all his trukks first turn with long range MM and autocannon shots.

I have beaten single nob biker lists pretty handily but I will concede I have yet to play the double nob biker list, although I think a lot of people are rethinking double lists due to PBS's. Nob bikers are one of the reasons I will most likely choose dreads over terminators, as insta gibbing a warboss is fun.

There arent any tournament Tau players around here I'm aware of so I wouldnt even know.

My views might be skewed as I play in a very marine and ork heavy environment. Top 4 at most tournaments around here contain at least 2 marine armies and the big one I played in last saturday had 3 in the top 4, including me. I wont be able to make it to any of the indy GT's till november or so, but I might be playing guard by then :p

The new SM codex is bay far the worse one I can remember. Tactical squads are too expensive, you can't spam assault cannons anymore and the Librarian was nerfed very hard. SM armies are not nearly as popular as they were five years ago. I don't remember anyone winning a GT with the 4e codex and I sure as heck don't expect anyone to win one with this one either.

G

Khornatedemon wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:There is no tier 1 sm list.
:(

this I dont agree with. What do you consider teir 1? If you say lash I'll laugh at you. Marines can beat nob bikers. Mech guard is tough but it can be done. Demons can be beaten as well, especially if they dont take rending on their crushers so they get tied up by dreads all game.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't remember anyone winning a GT with the 4e codex and I sure as heck don't expect anyone to win one with this one either.

Except, you know, Asugra posted 2 above you that they already did win one:

asugradinwa wrote:Space Marines did win the SoCal Slaughter in Space as Best Overall & Best General if my memory serves back in Feb.

TehCheator beat me too it......

Except and Indy GT and a GT are not the same.

willydstyle wrote:Except an Indy GT and a GT are not the same.

Exactly.
I am not going to get into an e-arguing match, it is pointless. There is not a teir 1 SM build out there nor wil lthere be with 5th.
It sucks, I have almost 5k points of sm and I play them for fun and in small tourneys with excellent results, but when i am playing at a higher level with power builds, I bring chaos or orks to win.
I am not your enemy, I think it sucks that gw totally screwed the sm with 5th, but calling a cow a dog does not make it a dog.

On a side note, csm > sm, it is not a mirror match. Vanilla CSM will beat SM consistantly.

The new SM codex is bay far the worse one I can remember. Tactical squads are too expensive, you can't spam assault cannons anymore and the Librarian was nerfed very hard. SM armies are not nearly as popular as they were five years ago. I don't remember anyone winning a GT with the 4e codex and I sure as heck don't expect anyone to win one with this one either.

I disagree.

Tactical Squads = Sure they are slightly more expensive, but most of your weapons are free. Combat Squads and Combat Tactics also increase their worth. They are no longer the front liners as they used to be, it is all about supporting them so they can be at the right place at the right time.

Assault Cannons = Are dead, long live the Multimelta! Rending took a hit in 5th edition, and even if you could spam them like you used to, they would still be lack luster. 5th Edition is all about the MM spam, which Space Marines do better then most.

Librarians = I actually prefer the new Librarian. I find it good game design to know the role of each HQ choice. Chaplains and Librarians are support Characters now. But the Librarian is a top quality choice still, I don't need him to be a beatstick in close combat, I need him to screw up your invulnerable saves, or jump around a table, or drop a str. 10 blast on your head. He can always bring friends in the CC department.

And as people have pointed out there have been a few wins with the list.

I think the problem, especially in the Central Florida area, is that people still have a 4th Edition mindset. Sure you hear about the "super lists", but the only real reason I made 4th in the RTT this past Saturday was because I played to the missions and I had a list that was very adapt at capturing objectives.