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First of all, you are now warned this thread is likely to be highly contentious. If you feel you are incapable of doing so in a dispassionate, mature manner, please do not contribute.

So, looking into the future, what becomes readily apparent? To me, two things.

1) We have already over populated the world.
2) Crime seems to be getting out of hand.

Despite being a lefty liberal, I can only see extreme measures sorting out these particular problem.

For the first, Birth Licenses for all. You want to have a kid, then you had better prove you can support it and pay for it yourself, otherwise no sprog for you. Easyish to achieve, as you add contraceptives to the water supply, and once you are licensed, you receive a drug which reverses the effects. Simple and effective. If applied globally, the requirements for a License would need to vary. After all, if we applied purely Western levels of provision, nobody in the 3rd World would ever be granted a license.

As for the other? Move towards Judge Dredd style instant justice. It seems ludicrous to me, and a total waste of time that in the modern age trials can take so long. Even when criminals are caught red handed, they still get a trial. Now I'm not advocating a change to innocent untl proven guilty, but if you are caught midway through beating the daylights out of someone, you have clearly broken the Law, and should be incarcerated immediately. No more soft touch Policing. Caught with illegal Drugs? Off to the slammer. Rapist, Murderer, Paedophile? This is Mr Gibbett, and he'd like to get to grips with you. Obviously, where the death sentence is applied, a full and rigorous trial is necessary, unless you are literally caught up to your nuts in someone you shouldn't be. Kind of hard to argue innocence when you blatantly have just diddled that kid....

So, what do you think? Do we need progressively harsher treatment as the world itself gets harsher? Please feel free to discuss my ideas, present your own ideas, and indeed discuss the moral implications of the various ideas put forward. Just. Keep. It. Civil.

Depends a lot on where you get your news:

Today’s fall in fertility is both very large and very fast. Poor countries are racing through the same demographic transition as rich ones, starting at an earlier stage of development and moving more quickly. The transition from a rate of five to that of two, which took 130 years to happen in Britain—from 1800 to 1930—took just 20 years—from 1965 to 1985—in South Korea. Mothers in developing countries today can expect to have three children. Their mothers had six. In some countries the speed of decline in the fertility rate has been astonishing. In Iran, it dropped from seven in 1984 to 1.9 in 2006—and to just 1.5 in Tehran.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14744915

US violent crime rate

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

It's all in the way you look at the issues imho. Population will probably stabilise around 8-9 billion, food production is improving consistently and water distribution can meet those demands. Crime rate is based upon modernising societies which includes better reporting, stupid white collar IP crimes and minor drugs getting counted in the mix, etc.


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oh and fwiw, the solution for both in my opinion is government provided xboxes for all.

X-Boxes? That's quite the punishment!

I guess I'm just sick to death of Britains self created underclass. Those who sit on their arses all day, living off Benefits. They drop sprogs like there's no tomorrow, are noted for their criminal element (though this is likely due to media distortion in many cases) and nobody seems to do much more than aim the occasional 'tut' in their direction.

Seriously, Britain BS Gang Culture (imported from Hippity Hop tripe) isn't that big a problem right now, but if we brought back the Death Sentence, all those wannabe hardmen knifing each other can be neatly removed from the equation. These morons actually FILM some of their attacks. I'd predict a very busy executioner for the first couple of years, before things drop off as the message finally permeates their thick minds.

Bloody Hell, Mad Doc, are you channelling the Daily Mail today?

I bloody hope not. Though it does seem I have a few Right Wing bones in my body, and I need to release my bile from them in safe bursts.

My employer (Southampton City Council) briefly flirted with the idea of compulsory contraceptive injections for teenage girls in deprived areas. It was not met with much support...

I agree with your sentiment Mad Dok, that generally speaking you should not be allowed children unless you can demonstrate that you can raise and support it without state aid, but this is a minefield that no politician is going stroll through.

Someone is going to have the balls sooner or later.

Teen Pregnancies are a problem, as the Mother gets not chance at her early adult life, and the kid is looking at a less than good early life. Don't get me wrong, the media blows crap teenage mothers out of proportion, and I certainly know most Teen mothers (and indeed fathers) do their utmost for their child. But so few are planned. Better education is one thing, but sadly isn't enough right now. It's a nasty circle. People from poorer backgrounds are more likely to repeat the cycle, so perhaps intervention is the only answer. The forcible breaking of a cycle isn't especially pleasent, but becoming necessary IMHO.

I agree wiht everything MDG is saying.

Also, if someone wants to keep living, they must have a liscense.

Goodbye ghettorats and chavs.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:I agree wiht everything MDG is saying.

Also, if someone wants to keep living, they must have a liscense.

Goodbye ghettorats and chavs.

I have a license.
here it is.



Remember there's no attack dog like a wiener attack dog.

Judge Dredd law? Are you serious?

That means you will have to trust the police entirely. You will have to put everything in their hands. They can do whatever they want, to whoever they want. All they have to say is that they saw whoever they didn't like doing something wrong. Some of these officers will be susceptible to bribes. And what happens next?

If you are willing to do away with the legal system then good luck. :p

Legal System doesn't work that well nowadays anyways. Well, not in Britain.

If you feel you are incapable of doing so in a dispassionate, mature manner, please do not contribute.

Dude! Harsh...



Hmm... I can see what you're driving at (although it's not that leftie or liberal IMO!), but I think it's more of a problem in smaller countries with high population density like the UK and to a greater extent, Japan. Isn't there a limit to the amount of kids you can have in China? I can't see it ever happening in the UK, but you never know....
As for the death-penalty, I can honestly see it being reinstated within 20 years or less. I have a funny feeling Britain may start to drift over to the right-wing in a big way over the next few years - lots of talk of national pride, increasing grumbles about political correctness 'gone mad', 'buying British' is becoming trendy, plus the Tories are coming in next year (probably)... It could just be my perception, but there are even more Union Flags knocking about on the streets, on products and in shop-windows (The Co-Op for example). Not that that's neccesarily a BAD thing, mind.

Plus, when Dakka's biggest Leftie, Comrade Grotsnik, starts advocating forced sterilisation and 'hang 'em high' as a solution to our crime problems - you know SOMETHING'S up.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

As for the other? Move towards Judge Dredd style instant justice. It seems ludicrous to me, and a total waste of time that in the modern age trials can take so long. Even when criminals are caught red handed, they still get a trial.

Disgraceful. Clampers, for example, should be armed and simply shoot the owner of any car illegally parked when they return and/or the vehicle can then be seized and sold off for the benefit of the nation.

Kind of my point!

Something has to be done about the Underclass, because it is largely self imposed. They have the same options and chances I do, but choose to piss it up the wall and lead a life on Social Security. As a tax payer, I fricking object to it being a lifestyle viable enough to be a choice!

We do need Social Security to help people survive rough times. But when you live your life on it, you can feth right off and die for all I care.

Definitely agree that raising kids should require some kind of license but I DO NOT want to give more power to the police or legal system than what they already have; or at least not to the point of Judge Dredd.

Also don't think there's much of a hope for a strong and united government for Earth unless aliens invade or another world war ensued.

Imo:

1. Decriminalize drugs and acts that don't really hurt society like marijuana and prostitution. Frees up prisons for the real criminals, creates jobs, and you'll have a more peaceful populace. No secret that a lot of the more violent criminals have poor sex lives and maybe this would help some of those cases.

2. Population control: Definitely should be a license or some legal standard in areas that have overpopulation. Doesn't make much sense that one needs a license for cars, guns, fishing, etc. but any Joe Schmo can have kids when raising kids is arguably more important and has more of an impact on society than anything else.

3. Better education: Have more trade skills and other fields taught so those that don't pursue higher learning can graduate with a potentially work-ready resume. A lot of schools already do this with autoshop and the like but more options the better.

4. Mandatory military/civil service : Imo you'll get a better overall population if everyone's gone through the same kind of boot camp experience. People become stronger and more confident after they had a pissed off person yelling at them to do more push ups. Also a lot of common sense skills and teamwork is taught here; learn to value eachother and people will probably be less likely to shoot eachother if they know they're dealing with someone with military skills.




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Also, military service also gets people accustomed to a relatively healthy diet and plenty of exercise - two things the Westernized population does poorly in largely. Could help counter obesity and in turn make a healthier population.

And we do have a scale of qualification for Parenthood already in place. Look at would be Adoptees.

Pass that, and boom, one antidote until you're pregnant. Fail it, and come back when you've improved the areas you were deficient in.

Totally agree about autoshop schooling etc. In Britain, our state system is predominantly academic, but in a very half arsed way. This fails academics like myself, and also practicals, who excel at physical tasks, but struggle with academic studies. Grammar Schools are only lame when you remove the Technical Schools!

Civil Service I like the idea of, but it would have to be more inventive than just Armed Forces.

1: Birth licensing:
Basic competency testing and training for parenthood. Implementation might be a bit odd, due to the cryptofaschist implications involved. Approve of the concept, but have no objective answers as to how to implement it.

2: Instant Justice (TM)
As much as a great storytelling tool this is, I think its almost as bad an idea as getting a bachelor's degree in medieval history. People are inherently corrupt and corruptible. Instituting a fascist state that's not being ruled by an omniscient benevolent dictator and enforced by incorruptible Serpentor-esque distillations of wisdom and mercy is begging for trouble.

I dont trust the police, i dont think they are professional or train properly, so i cant say im all for Judge Dredd style coppers...

Death penalty, well.. id say that is certainly viable, as im pretty sure one of the primary reasons it got axed was because of mistakes?

Well, with CCTV and DNA testing i think if your only 99.99% certain someone did it, then you can jail them for life. But if you have 100% proof, you know.. like.. DNA on a womans corpse from finding the dudes skin under her finger nails and gak like that.. i think we could end them yeah.

I mean, i think most criminals can be rehabilitated, sure.. druggies and burglars and such. But a guy like Ian Huntley, he aint ever gonna be released so.. as dirty Harry said.. why cant we just "save the tax payers lots of money?"

My point exactly.

Even if it's a crime of passion, you'd have to apply the law evenly.

Someone mentioned about legalising drugs. Covered that in a previous thread, and I semi-agree, in so far that I advocate treating them all evenly, be they legalised, or criminalised to the same degree. Yes, carring an eighth of solid would carry the same sentence as a kilo of Heroin. Drugs is drugs, and if they are illegal, it's the slammer for you.

I fully support complete legalisation of all narcotics, but that's a whole 'nother thread!


@ Cane - 3) and 4) on your list are actually current BNP policies, believe it or not!

Lol, this is reminds me of Starship Troopers where you had to become a citizen in order to have babies and the only way to become a citizen was to serve in the military.

@ Mad Dok, you mentioned that having babies deprives teenage girls of their early adult years. Teenage girls are having babies just so they can avoid the responsibilities of early adult years. "You have a baby and no means to support it? One free house coming right up."

God, nothing was more depressing than that documentary a few months ago that highlighted that the British government pays out more in benefits, than it receives in income tax. The working population in Britain literally pays for the unemployed to sit around and watch Sky TV. I work and I don't have Sky TV! (though this is more to do with Sky TV being rubbish).

Yet, when the tories slash the welfare-state - and they will, considering 'super-Dave' is a serious Thatcherite - we will all be complaing about how heartless they are, no doubt.

I would hate to govern the British people.

Albatross wrote:Yet, when the tories slash the welfare-state - and they will, considering 'super-Dave' is a serious Thatcherite - we will all be complaing about how heartless they are, no doubt.

I would hate to govern the British people.

Hmm... think Super Dave is more moderate, but I will not complain if he get's people off their arses and back into McDonalds where they belong. Not sure this would be a good thing, as I much prefer all of the foreign staff members you get in McDonalds these days. Was served by this Indochina girl the other day and was pleasantly bemused by her euphoria at the priviledge of being able to serve me a Bacon and Egg McMuffin. Mind you, I think she was new...

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:First of all, you are now warned this thread is likely to be highly contentious. If you feel you are incapable of doing so in a dispassionate, mature manner, please do not contribute.

So, looking into the future, what becomes readily apparent? To me, two things.

1) We have already over populated the world.
2) Crime seems to be getting out of hand.

Despite being a lefty liberal, I can only see extreme measures sorting out these particular problem.

For the first, Birth Licenses for all. You want to have a kid, then you had better prove you can support it and pay for it yourself, otherwise no sprog for you. Easyish to achieve, as you add contraceptives to the water supply, and once you are licensed, you receive a drug which reverses the effects. Simple and effective. If applied globally, the requirements for a License would need to vary. After all, if we applied purely Western levels of provision, nobody in the 3rd World would ever be granted a license.

As for the other? Move towards Judge Dredd style instant justice. It seems ludicrous to me, and a total waste of time that in the modern age trials can take so long. Even when criminals are caught red handed, they still get a trial. Now I'm not advocating a change to innocent untl proven guilty, but if you are caught midway through beating the daylights out of someone, you have clearly broken the Law, and should be incarcerated immediately. No more soft touch Policing. Caught with illegal Drugs? Off to the slammer. Rapist, Murderer, Paedophile? This is Mr Gibbett, and he'd like to get to grips with you. Obviously, where the death sentence is applied, a full and rigorous trial is necessary, unless you are literally caught up to your nuts in someone you shouldn't be. Kind of hard to argue innocence when you blatantly have just diddled that kid....

So, what do you think? Do we need progressively harsher treatment as the world itself gets harsher? Please feel free to discuss my ideas, present your own ideas, and indeed discuss the moral implications of the various ideas put forward. Just. Keep. It. Civil.

Smartass mode on:

So Doc, how'd that conversation people advised you to have go with your Italian girlfriend?

Mad Dok is a bit like Mr Benn. Seducer of Women one day, Stand Up Comedian the next. Today the Shopkeeper has issued him with the Revolutionist costume.

(For non-UK people, Mr Benn is an old BBC cartoon where the central character visits a fancy dress costume shop and goes off on adventures determined by his costume choice).

I used to love that show as a kid, Ben being my own name.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Something has to be done about the Underclass, because it is largely self imposed.

You do realize that for competition, and therefore capitalism, to work someone has to lose, right? I'd guess that something on the order of 75% of social policy turns on the notion of how to properly placate the underclass.

Ah yes, but capitalism isn't the only system is it?

No, but there aren't any viable economic systems that I know of which do not require the existence of an underclass.

You can't simply redistribute all the wealth as that removes the incentive to work, but you also can't simply ignore the poor because that tends to end in violence.

MGS wrote:Easyish to achieve, as you add contraceptives to the water supply, and once you are licensed, you receive a drug which reverses the effects.

This is outright crazy talk, no question... I will scan through the thread, before I comment any further.

dogma wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Something has to be done about the Underclass, because it is largely self imposed.

You do realize that for competition, and therefore capitalism, to work someone has to lose, right? I'd guess that something on the order of 75% of social policy turns on the notion of how to properly placate the underclass.

The consequences of prosperity, and the notion of a capitalist country, all hinge on this facet; even if indirectly.

Taking advantage of a system such as capitalism, and not understanding any of this; anyone in this group, needs to get a license to speak on the internet...
By the little information I have to gauge (Oops, I said MGS by accident.) Mad Doc's sentiment (and a few others in this thread), anyone who is poor, should be neutered due to the fact that they even present a hazard... of being alive.

There are a million and a half ways to appropriately solve some of these issues; but if you expect to be able to accomplish a 'utopian' society, basically killing the poor is a terrible place to start. I feel like I am watching someone scream in agony... because of a stubbed toe. Don't get me wrong, it hurts; just wait until you sprain both ankles and dislocate both arms. You'll probably pass out .

(this is a comment on the thread, not Dogma)