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Ketara wrote:Here's a tip Wrexasaur. Relying on British government statistics these days is a no-no. So much of it is made up it's unreal.

You're correct that removing welfare would probably generate more crime. The problem is the lack of a solution. These kids are raised in a council estate environment, and have no willingness to learn any better. They scorn hard work and intellect and look down on it. Unless you're one of them, you're against them. This mentality makes it very difficult to deal with them. How can you help someone who doesn't want to help themselves?

I suppose you don't help that person. It is not quite as simple as you make it sound though... after all, we are mainly talking about children here mate. That was what I got from reading the OP at least, and headbutting with Albatross as well.

I know plenty of these people myself, and not taking the time to really get to know them all that personally, there probably is not going to be a solution coming from me. The thing about all of this, is that community activity, is basically the only option. That would include police involvement, as well as people that have experience working in that environment. Regular hard-ass, no fething around, professional social workers. These people exist, and many of them might have come from that very same background, as hard as it was for them to do so.

All of my experience with any of our social services in the states, have felt like little more than a pat on the head, and support lacking in almost every single way... wait... yeah, in every single way. One of the main reasons people in these situations seemingly do not want help, is that they feel what they are being offered is not help. I do agree of course, that it does take some doing to actually get people to open up to meaningful help. Chances are that the help is not there at all, and probably never will be.

If the majority of this demographic is addicted to drugs, you are all in for a very long haul... It takes time, patience, and effort that sadly will likely never be provided. This is the main reason I never thought too long about getting into a career of that nature.

Anyway, there seems to be no solution at all, so focusing on other things that can be positively changed (of which I am sure there are many), would be a very good alternative.

I mean... if this were my dojo or something, every single one of those dickheads would be carrying bricks for my castle... or they would face my unyielding wrath... beware the wrath of Wrex...



"GET BACK TO WORK YOU WHELPS..."

Albatross wrote:There is no incentive to have a stable and productive family...

If there's no incentive why don't you just quit and line up for the dole tomorrow?

Is it maybe because that life, just sitting about watching telly and cashing a small monthly cheque, is actually a pretty crap life? And once we recognise that it's a pretty crap life, we have to start looking at how people get there. How welfare schemes actually financially penalise people who look to re-enter the workforce. How long lay-offs make it very hard to get a new job, as skills are outdated and the unemployed fellow gathers a stigma. And the biggest issue is how a lack of confidence from an extended lay off can lead to people giving up.

Because in looking at those things there's a chance you'll move towards a solution. Improve re-skilling programs. Bring in work for the dole programs, to get people active again. Subsidise apprenticeship schemes. And most importantly pay a decent minimum wage.

There's plenty of other options out there to deal with the problem, and they're well worth talking about. Or we can talk about forced sterilisation.

They are parasites - IMHO after 6 months of being jobless, the gov't should say: 'Right young man/woman, so you still haven't found a job then? Ok, I have JUST the job for you...Army, Navy or Air Force?'

Army don't want 'em. Navy and air force certainly don't. Thing about modern militaries is that they need skilled, highly motivated and disciplined volunteers and anyone else is a money sink.


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Albatross wrote:Sounds like a problem to me. Those numbers are not hyperbole.

The rate of illegitimate disability claims is based on a single report, and are extremely unlikely to be as high as 2/3. Regardless, there are undoubtably illegitimate claims on welfare, especially long term disability claims.

But it is very odd to me that so much focus is placed on welfare claims when it is already about as tightly monitored as is practical, and there are so many other forms of fraud that utterly dwarf false welfare claims. Tax fraud alone is an order of magnitude greater than welfare fraud. Corporate malfeasance takes vastly more money out of society than welfare fraud ever could... yet here we are in the wake of one of the great corporate scandals and we still won't look up to see who's stealing the big pots of money, we continue staring down.

There's a sociology paper in there somewhere.

If you have ever been to a third world country and seen all of the billions of people living in abject poverty I think you might be more inclined to advocate birth control. If it were up to me I would have planes fly over shanty towns and dust them with sterilization potions. You could solve the over population problem in one generation. People that are extremely poor are not educated. Sex is one of the very few past times they have access to. I remember once flying into a Latin American country seeing people from the plane living in dirt hovels as far as the eye could see. It really gets you down.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you have ever been to a third world country and seen all of the billions of people living in abject poverty I think you might be more inclined to advocate birth control. If it were up to me I would have planes fly over shanty towns and dust them with sterilization potions. You could solve the over population problem in one generation. People that are extremely poor are not educated. Sex is one of the very few past times they have access to. I remember once flying into a Latin American country seeing people from the plane living in dirt hovels as far as the eye could see. It really gets you down.

G

Depressingly true the above.

Population control does need to stop being danced around. We have very finite resources, and to let those resources be stretched thinner and thinner is asking for a great deal of trouble. At this point, I would argue that non-voluntary population control becomes very much the lesser of two evils.

If you think about it the majority of all the world major problems such as pollution all stem from over population. So by solving the over population problem it would also automatically solve a lot of other problems as well.

G

Our resources are so finite in fact, that the U.S. pays farmers to NOT grow corn...

Just think of all the mud being used by those poor, hovel dwelling third worlders... the waste... absolutely unimaginable.

I mean seriously, I can't imagine that you are being anything less than silly after hearing you both talk this way... absolutely preposterous...

I don't know if they'd solve them, but it would go someone to alleviating things.

And before anyone enacts Godwins law fully, I am not advocating the killing or culling of any peoples of the world. Just stating that we seriously need to consider our numbers, and how sustainable they are.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And before anyone enacts Godwins law fully, I am not advocating the killing or culling of any peoples of the world. Just stating that we seriously need to consider our numbers, and how sustainable they are.

'Fully' enacts Godwins law? Are you taking the piss mate?

We need to seriously do a lot of things, none of which involve sprinkling madness dust all over a third world country. The amount of waste produced by the middle class, makes the lower class of any country look like a minute hill of unnoticed beans...

Albatross wrote:And you CAN go to prison for being in debt in the UK - for non-payment of council tax or child benefit. The Military is a legitimate career - anyone who can't find a job within (ok, lets's change it to)12 mths is not trying IMO. I see nothing wrong with the government assigning people jobs, when said people have made zero effort to find one.

The military is indeed a legitimate career, but it isn't an easy one. People that refuse to work retail jobs, which border on equivalence to home life with an annoying parent, are not going to succeed in the armed forces if put there against their will; assuming they don't wash out immediately.

You can't make people work if they simply don't want to do so. If the various social factors at play don't motivate them, then there isn't much left beyond compulsion through the instinct for self-preservation. However, I doubt you want to start executing the unemployed unless you literally want to turn the workplace into a cutthroat environment. You could try simply not supporting the destitute, but then you'll deal with increased crime and social unrest.

Its a balancing act. You need to maintain the incentive to work, while also placating those who can't, or don't want to do so. That's the price of living in contemporary society. You essentially pay people so they don't feth things up.

Kilkrazy wrote:The army doesn't want to be filled up with members of the underclass. There was a general on Radio 4 the other day saying he wanted a high standard of recruit.

This.

Well I find it funny socialism and lefty ideas are all the rage as when back to the 50's and the witchhunts.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And before anyone enacts Godwins law fully, I am not advocating the killing or culling of any peoples of the world. Just stating that we seriously need to consider our numbers, and how sustainable they are.

'Fully' enacts Godwins law? Are you taking the piss mate?

We need to seriously do a lot of things, none of which involve sprinkling madness dust all over a third world country. The amount of waste produced by the middle class, makes the lower class of any country look like a minute hill of unnoticed beans...

Oh I quite agree, and all are problems which need a solution. So far, the soft approach isn't working, so increasingly we creep closer and closer to the stick method.

The biggest problem in this world is responsibility, or indeed the lack thereof. The Underclass accept no responsibility for their situation. The Working Class accept no responsibility for passing up chances. The Middle Class accept no responsibility for their wasteful lifestyles, and the Upper Class, well, they wouldn't know what responsibility was if it jumped up and bit them. Me, I'd love to see some kind of world wide catastrophe which culled humanity severely, and rendered technology useless. Back to the primitive, and start again, this time hopefully learning from our mistakes.

I find it funny people are okay with all the suffering in the world because the thought of enforced birth control and sterilization makes them feel bad. If you live in a nice place you never have to see any of the suffering... Don't think about it and everything is suddenly alright again. It reminds me of people that keep their pets alive long past their natural life span because they would feel bad if they had the pet put under.

G

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Oh I quite agree, and all are problems which need a solution. So far, the soft approach isn't working, so increasingly we creep closer and closer to the stick method.

The biggest problem in this world is responsibility, or indeed the lack thereof. The Underclass accept no responsibility for their situation. The Working Class accept no responsibility for passing up chances. The Middle Class accept no responsibility for their wasteful lifestyles, and the Upper Class, well, they wouldn't know what responsibility was if it jumped up and bit them. Me, I'd love to see some kind of world wide catastrophe which culled humanity severely, and rendered technology useless. Back to the primitive, and start again, this time hopefully learning from our mistakes.

I get the fascination with apocalypse and what not... I guess. Learning from our mistakes... comedy freaking gold in this context... jesus freaking christ, that is all I have to say.

How does one jump from living in the woods, which seems like a reasonable alternative, to wanting most people to die, so you can jump to living in the woods? I cannot follow the string on that one, it seems to lack any connection.

I truly feel like I am listening to a satire act at this point, so far as I remember your previous posts in other threads. You should move into the woods, before you implode due to thinking to much about thinking about too much to thinking... thinking about the... too much.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I find it funny people are okay with all the suffering in the world because the thought of enforced birth control and sterilization makes them feel bad. If you live in a nice place you never have to see any of the suffering... Don't think about it and everything is suddenly alright again. It reminds me of people that keep their pets alive long past their natural life span because they would feel bad if they had the pet put under.

G

I find it mindblowingly hilarious that people assume they are the ones to make decisions, based on opinions they have about their own lives. Who in the flying feth, are any of us to say that people are suffering so much, that we should nueter and/or kill them.

The whole just don't think about it line is good for some, but not for others. I will not disagree that most people do not care very much at all, but you seem to be leading the pack in terms of perverted fantasies of heavenly retribution.

Hopefully the meteor only lands directly on you, and others such as yourself, so that I can sit back with other folks, sippin beer, and eating popcorn.

The last time I looked out the window it appears hoping and praying aren't working out that well. Enjoy.

G

The hoers was better.

G

I find it mindblowingly hilarious that people assume they are the ones to make decisions, based on opinions they have about their own lives. Who in the flying feth, are any of us to say that people are suffering so much, that we should nueter and/or kill them.

I agree with you.

@Ketara - I come from an almost identical background to you (substitute Africa for Northern Ireland, though) - when we came to England, we lived in one room for months. Me, my sister and my mum just about survived, similar to your story. Benefits under the Tories were pretty grim, dunno what it was like when you came over...

But it does SEEM a bit excessive when you hear about stuff like this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5299182.ece

£286.60 a week? That's more than you get working the average minimum wage job! This is what I'm talking about when I say there's no incentive.

But dropping 'contraceptive gas' on african villages - come on guys. Even YOU must know that sounds a bit evil. And stupid.

Then put it into the Water Supply. Not saying it's without moral quandry, but if people won't control themselves, something has to be done.

I'd love to see how many Dakkaites would actually support covert birth control if governments were already doing it.

Apparently 'they' already put flouride in our water, to strengthen our teeth.

Ugh, for once I have to agree with Albatross (damn, I need to up my med intake).

Killing or neutering the "underclass" because we think they are suffering is selfish. Maybe they are happy sucking off the system.

I don't know much about the rest of the US but in Minnesota a good majority of those sucking off the system are proud of it. My parents tell me when they were teens that it was something to be ashamed of to have to get government assistance, that standing in line to get the free cheese and peanut butter was not something you wanted to do.

Now everywhere I look I see a single mom with 3 or 4 kids behind her (or even a married mom) go up to the counter with 2 or 3 carts worth of food, whip out her electronic "too lazy to work" card and easily pay for her $600 worth of groceries without so much as even batting an eyelash or feeling embarrassed knowing the taxpayers paid for her groceries.

Living on welfare may not be glamorous to the lower and upper middle class and high class but it pays out better than most minimum wage jobs and the attitude I've gotten from most welfare moms/families is that "the government owes it to us" or "why should I go out and work, I've got everything I need and I don't have to lift a finger"? Contrary to popular belief welfare does not ONLY pay you JUST enough to avoid living on the street. I've stood in line behind people who swipe their "im too lazy to work" card, make sure all 4 or 5 kids are with them and then they walk out the door in front of me as I'm going out to my 11yo clunker only to see said person start piling kids and groceries into a brand new Honda or Ford or Chevy.

I've been called out in the past for making that claim. Believe me or not but how fethed up is it that someone gets ANY kind of government assistance at all regarding food that can somehow afford a brand new car? The welfare people should be taking a harder look at what the recipients life style is like before just stamping the application approving that person/family so they can make their quota and go home.

Some people claim "welfare queeens" don't exist. I'm sure there are no millionaire welfare moms in this country but it used to be you got JUST enough to scrape by food wise and normally would have to get free commodities (such as peanut butter and cheese) to help get by. Now in addition to a vastly disproportionate amount of money per kid per month for food they also get WIC, which for those of you who don't know is essentially free food on TOP of the free money the government is handing out and of course free medical.

I don't know about the rest of the world but the US would be a better place without welfare. Perhaps employers should pay hourly wages based on how many kids you have then welfare wouldn't need to exist and the single moms/dads with 4 kids could still earn what they do for sitting around watching oprah/football; the difference is they'd actually be helping to contribute.

As far as gangs. Take every known gang member in the US, dump them on an island 500miles from any shore and let them kill each other off or maybe make it into a televised sport like Running Man.

So is it better to let the third world to continue to swell? How many of you have been in actual third world slum? I have driven through the largest shanty town (Bombay) several times... You can't even begin to imagine the suffering you'll see and there's not really much you can do. Why is it bad to sterilize people living in these circumstances?

G

Population will not stabilize, mass starvation and environmental destruction will lead to draconian measures on food and water control, lack of resource will take care of the rest. After that who knows how people will handle things, but in all likelihood it will be much more socially acceptable to control population than it seems now. Freedom doesn't work forever.

Oh there is a practicable alternative to Cash benefits.

Ration Books.

And yes, I am deadly serious. Think about it. Benefits are there to feed and clothe you, NOT for luxuries. You want a PS3 for your kid, get a job. You want to enjoy a couple of nights up the pub a week? Get a job.

Benefit Token Books would cover things like Nappies, Gas, Electric, Rent, Foodstuffs. The basics and essentials. You want anything else? Get. A. fething. Job.

Doing it this way, even those on low incomes can be offered Token Books to help with the basics.

Where is the difference? Well, there's a lot less reward for taking the piss out the system.

Luxuries are just that. Luxury. I have a laptop, because I paid for it through my wages. Everything I have, I paid for. With my Wages. I fething hate the perennial whine of certain people about their kids going without at Christmas, and why can't Donna-Sheree-Sheran have an X-Station Wii like the kids from school? BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS HAVE A JOB YOU fething BUM.

Grarrr! Sorry. Got a bit het up there.

People trade rations for drugs.

G

Not when there's people with cash to pay for Drugs.

I agree with MDG.

Welfare in the states consists of:

Money for living expenses (which is grossly over extended)
Money for food (again grossly over extended)
Free medical

Some phone companies and cable companies have programs in place to allow people with low income (mostly aimed at welfare recipients) drastic cuts on phone and cable tv (wft? $10/month for cable because you want to sit around and do nothing and I pay $60/month for cable on a minimum wage job)

Also, some of the "low income homes", aka "too lazy to work" homes are equivalent to what would cost around $6-800/month to mortgage and they cost those that are deem qualified $50/month.

That's the problem with the current welfare system in the US. It encourages people to sit around and do nothing because they live just as good as most lower-middle income families who have 2 working parents working 40 hours per week.

Again, the US needs to cut the current system (especially to illegals).

hows about mandatory drug and booze testing for everyone on the dole... you come up positive you lose it, no ifs and or buts

if your so fething poor you need a handout to buy food... you got ZERO bussiness boozing it up.

So this is about the US?

No GBF, don't put words in my mouth. I'm just agreeing with MDG and using examples to back up my claims. You know, because apparently I don't ever think before I post.

The topic is welfare problem in the UK. I'm in the US. I can't join this topic of discussion without something to discuss. I'm as free to post here as you are GBF so me using examples about the US is not dragging the thread off topic as it's still about the topic at hand (welfare losers).

Read before you post, mkay?